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| 00:01.31 | snooky | how i con DOWNGRADE? |
| 00:01.50 | snooky | yes.. i WANT DOWNGRADE the fucking shit ne kernel... |
| 00:02.59 | dvs | !downgrade |
| 00:02.59 | dpkg | Downgrading is not, nor will ever be supported by apt. Programs change their data in a way that can't be rolled back, and package maintainer scripts support upgrades to new config file formats but not downgrades. Try: "dpkg -i olderversion.deb" or "aptitude install package=version" using "apt-cache policy package" to get the old version number. See also <partial downgrade>, <unstable->testing>, <sdo>. |
| 00:03.44 | uRock | select the old kernel from grub maybe? Just caught the last of your comments so..... |
| 00:03.50 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:04.01 | life_SUX | ..synaptic... |
| 00:04.51 | *** join/#debian dtux (~dmtucker@2600:1700:22f0:37b0:909d:1138:6b9d:c7a2) |
| 00:05.51 | dvs | the install package? |
| 00:07.45 | SerajewelKS | bernyrd: i followed the debian guide for the HC1... ish. used a /dev/loop device since the server i'm using has no sd card slot. then will write the image using windows. but we'll see what happens... |
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| 00:11.18 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
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| 00:11.58 | life_SUX | I already have |
| 00:12.04 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
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| 00:17.28 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:18.32 | *** join/#debian apt (ibot@c-174-52-60-165.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:18.32 | *** topic/#debian is Current Debian release is buster, 10.1 point release /msg dpkg 10.1; /msg dpkg buster; /msg dpkg stretch->buster; /msg dpkg apt suite changed | Oldstable Stretch: /msg dpkg stretch ; /msg dpkg 9.11 ; 9.11 needs dist-upgrade | NO FLOOD: /msg dpkg paste | offtopic: #debian-offtopic | testing/unstable: #debian-next @ irc.oftc.net | chanlogs: /msg dpkg irclog |
| 00:18.48 | annadane | oh, i see you just posted. sorry, bit tired |
| 00:19.08 | dvs | !coffee annadane |
| 00:19.08 | dpkg | decants a fine mug of fair trade Colombian for annadane, courtesy of dvs |
| 00:19.22 | annadane | what does file Dissenter say, or whatever it's called |
| 00:19.33 | life_SUX | tz. two of them |
| 00:20.06 | annadane | right but you have a separate file other than those two .tz folders |
| 00:20.58 | life_SUX | debian-binary . 2.0 is all that it has in it. |
| 00:21.14 | life_SUX | just that one |
| 00:21.25 | life_SUX | it is only 4 bytes |
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| 00:23.12 | life_SUX | Ok, the D/L package is dissenter-browser_0.68.132_amd64.deb |
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| 00:23.53 | dacencora | Hey guys |
| 00:24.27 | life_SUX | annadane : Ok, the D/L package is dissenter-browser_0.68.132_amd64.deb |
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| 00:24.59 | dacencora | I have debian installed on a secondary hard drive as my second os and I want to remove GRUB because my other linux install uses rEFInd |
| 00:25.04 | dacencora | Best way to accomplish this? |
| 00:26.42 | life_SUX | a seclnd one taped to the hard drive |
| 00:26.47 | life_SUX | oops |
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| 00:29.40 | dvs | dacencora, you can install GRUB on the MBR of the second hard drive. I'm not sure if rEFInd needs to install anything on the primary hard drive though. |
| 00:30.22 | dacencora | So GRUB is installed, and I would rather just remove it, but I just realized that I can make my own entry on rEFInd that bypasses GRUB altogether |
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| 00:30.28 | annadane | life_SUX, sorry, i don't know. .deb physically installs (i never use .deb so i don't know) so you ought to just be able to run it... but i really don't know |
| 00:30.37 | dacencora | And then I'll just deprioritize GRUB |
| 00:30.39 | annadane | i'd check dissenter myself but i'm really, really tired, sorry |
| 00:30.48 | LtL | life_SUX: apt install ./dissenter-browser_0.68.132_amd64.deb -or- dpkg -i dissenter-browser_0.68.132_amd64.deb [the first should solve dependencies] |
| 00:31.01 | annadane | there you go |
| 00:31.16 | LtL | life_SUX: that is as root on a command line. |
| 00:31.31 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
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| 00:31.47 | LtL | \o/ |
| 00:32.58 | annadane | maybe one day i'll be brave enough to install something using .deb. one day. |
| 00:33.01 | annadane | in 2045. |
| 00:33.36 | life_SUX | LtL : ..yes. i suppose thati need to redirect it to the folder where the package is located. |
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| 00:34.35 | LtL | life_SUX: yes, perform the command from the directory the file is in. |
| 00:35.23 | annadane | also if you sign is as root (as opposed to sudo) root will automatically put you in /root |
| 00:35.28 | annadane | so cd to the proper directory |
| 00:35.33 | annadane | or use the full pathname |
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| 00:36.14 | life_SUX | OK, fullpathname |
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| 00:49.24 | LtL | life_SUX: cd to the directory to be safe. |
| 00:50.33 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:50.34 | LtL | or more to ensure execution. either should be okay |
| 00:50.45 | life_SUX | oh d |
| 00:50.47 | LtL | cd = change directory. |
| 00:50.48 | life_SUX | cd |
| 00:51.21 | LtL | life_SUX: then refer to the site you got it from. |
| 00:52.08 | life_SUX | yes, I remember that from DOS |
| 00:52.34 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:52.59 | life_SUX | " |
| 00:53.01 | LtL | life_SUX: exact command please |
| 00:53.45 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:53.50 | LtL | life_SUX: # apt install ./dissenter-browser_0.68.132_amd64.deb ? |
| 00:56.22 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:57.10 | LtL | life_SUX: try dpkg -i dissenter-browser_0.68.132_amd64.deb # has this .deb been tested on debian? |
| 00:57.15 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:57.24 | life_SUX | OK |
| 00:58.26 | dvs | LtL, it was downloaded directly from the dissenter website. |
| 00:58.50 | LtL | dvs: are you familiar with it? |
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| 00:59.10 | dvs | nope |
| 00:59.13 | life_SUX | ( error - cannot access archive ... ) |
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| 00:59.49 | LtL | life_SUX: are you sure the file is there? use tab completion |
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| 01:00.20 | life_SUX | cd downloads |
| 01:00.54 | LtL | life_SUX: type 'ls' is it there? |
| 01:01.01 | themill | sounds like it's not an actual deb package |
| 01:01.16 | LtL | agreed, or damaged |
| 01:01.34 | themill | what does "file dissenter-browser_0.68.132_amd64.deb" say about it? |
| 01:02.00 | themill | predicts "HTML document" |
| 01:04.08 | life_SUX | snap sudo |
| 01:05.43 | LtL | what does that mean? type 'file dissenter-browser_0.68.132_amd64.deb' #hit tab after you type diss<tab> to complete the typing. |
| 01:06.50 | LtL | life_SUX: is that the output of 'file'? snap? |
| 01:07.15 | life_SUX | ok |
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| 01:10.38 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
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| 01:12.51 | themill | life_SUX: is there some other language you'd rather get help in? This is excessively difficult. Real commands and real output in a pastebin would make it easier. |
| 01:13.39 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
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| 01:14.27 | LtL | damn connection. |
| 01:14.47 | LtL | life_SUX: it should say Debian binary package |
| 01:14.48 | dvs | cuts the tin cans |
| 01:16.15 | life_SUX | That is whatthat 3rd file is called |
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| 01:18.38 | LtL | life_SUX: I have no idea what you mean, I came in late on this thing. |
| 01:18.57 | LtL | type 'ls -l' find out |
| 01:20.32 | life_SUX | ls -l |
| 01:20.42 | life_SUX | DASMN OT |
| 01:21.09 | life_SUX | OK, I screwed up my terminal ..damn it |
| 01:21.19 | LtL | life_SUX: I noticed you have a hard time reading your screen, true? increase your font point size. |
| 01:21.24 | LtL | type reset |
| 01:22.14 | life_SUX | su - |
| 01:22.31 | LtL | life_SUX: wrong window dude |
| 01:23.21 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:23.44 | LtL | life_SUX: sudo shutdown -r now |
| 01:25.28 | LtL | life_SUX: why reboot? |
| 01:25.40 | life_SUX | authenitcation failure |
| 01:25.56 | life_SUX | friggin' hell |
| 01:26.21 | LtL | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:27.02 | LtL | life_SUX: IF you have to, hold the power button down for like 10 secs. |
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| 01:27.14 | life_SUX | ..I might as well go use the bathroom while i am waiting |
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| 01:31.53 | LtL | when you first learn to swim, don't attempt the english channel life_SUX |
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| 01:36.48 | annadane | learning how to swim is easy, it's just like learning how to ride a bicycle |
| 01:37.13 | dvs | as a fish? |
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| 01:39.43 | swift110 | yeah i love to swim |
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| 01:42.05 | life_SUX | sucked at learning to ride a bicycle |
| 01:42.31 | swift110 | lol |
| 01:43.30 | annadane | then you suck at swimming and i can't help you. |
| 01:43.55 | LtL | life_SUX: are you on a laptop? does your caps key light work? |
| 01:44.08 | life_SUX | I don't remember.. I have been swimmimng for decades |
| 01:44.23 | swift110 | i love to swim |
| 01:44.36 | life_SUX | ...haven't... |
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| 01:45.49 | LtL | slalom skiing is where it's at. why swim when you can ride :) |
| 01:46.37 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:46.43 | annadane | you can die easily in a small pool, much harder to die skiing down an easy slope |
| 01:47.13 | LtL | annadane: i meant water skiing :) |
| 01:47.42 | LtL | life_SUX: wth does jewish have to do with anything? |
| 01:48.30 | LtL | life_SUX: TIP, use firefox ESR |
| 01:48.30 | life_SUX | Shalom skiing. |
| 01:48.39 | LtL | haha |
| 01:49.03 | LtL | you can't read your screen me thinks. |
| 01:49.15 | annadane | i'm dying over here |
| 01:49.55 | life_SUX | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:50.23 | LtL | off topic yet still, but yes. |
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| 02:17.16 | LtL | life_SUX: just in 'case', /downloads/ is Downloads/ case matters. night all |
| 02:17.33 | dvs | o/ |
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| 02:21.53 | bernyrd | SerajewelKS: I just remembered, look at Armbian. It has prebuilt many devices. Maybe small concern about security. |
| 02:22.54 | SerajewelKS | i got the image built but on boot the network is not coming up, i can't even really see what's going on as the board has no monitor |
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| 02:23.03 | SerajewelKS | my suspicion is that the network interface is not called eth0 |
| 02:23.19 | bernyrd | maybe better to get real debian way done, armbian uses vagrant and some other weirdness |
| 02:23.21 | SerajewelKS | is there a way to shotgun tell ifupdown to bring up anything starting with "e" and run dhcp on it? |
| 02:23.38 | bernyrd | SerajewelKS: Screen or serial terminal? Highly recommend serial terminal. Some Asian devices are not very well document |
| 02:23.51 | bernyrd | SerajewelKS: you can list devices |
| 02:23.52 | SerajewelKS | it has a serial terminal but i don't have the hardware to use it |
| 02:23.53 | bernyrd | then pass to script |
| 02:24.08 | bernyrd | ok well buy serial thing now, even if they are ripping you off and it is $20 |
| 02:24.20 | SerajewelKS | sure, in the meantime i'd like to try some things though |
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| 02:24.47 | bernyrd | SerajewelKS: of course. look in /sys/class/net. Maybe there is way to pass those nodes to ifconfig or ip? |
| 02:24.59 | SerajewelKS | bernyrd: i have no access to the box because the network is not up |
| 02:25.07 | bernyrd | you have access to disk image that runs on boot yes |
| 02:25.11 | SerajewelKS | that's the problem, i need it to run dhcp on every interface |
| 02:25.27 | SerajewelKS | yes but i can't look in /sys/class/net -- i have no idea what the interface is called |
| 02:25.50 | bernyrd | yes, trick is you just set up and run dhcp on every if |
| 02:26.00 | bernyrd | you should be able to spin up your prepared image in qemu to test any script you write |
| 02:26.02 | SerajewelKS | right. i'm trying to figure out how to do that. |
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| 02:26.21 | bernyrd | alternate, maybe faster, you can check armbian or odroid forums to see if anyone says what it is called |
| 02:26.31 | SerajewelKS | hmm maybe, these boards use u-boot with some interesting firmware blobs (not grub) |
| 02:26.42 | SerajewelKS | nobody seems to have tried buster on it yet :) |
| 02:26.44 | bernyrd | u-boot should be able to drive the screen |
| 02:26.51 | SerajewelKS | my guess is it's enx$hwaddr |
| 02:26.56 | bernyrd | or no wait |
| 02:27.27 | SerajewelKS | i wish interfaces supported wildcards :/ |
| 02:27.35 | bernyrd | you're have to use sysfs |
| 02:27.38 | bernyrd | they kind of do |
| 02:27.52 | SerajewelKS | i mean /etc/network/interfaces |
| 02:28.01 | bernyrd | e.g. /sys/class/net/*/carrier:1 indicates the port has a carrier |
| 02:28.26 | bernyrd | so you could check /sys/class/net for the if which has carrier, strip name out, give it to ifconfig (suggest you use `ip`) |
| 02:28.40 | bernyrd | sooo then how to get that to run, hmm |
| 02:28.56 | SerajewelKS | there's always rc.local |
| 02:29.23 | SerajewelKS | maybe in rc.local i just run 'ip link > /tmp/interfaces' |
| 02:29.39 | SerajewelKS | then pull the power, put the card back in my computer, check what's in that file :) |
| 02:29.40 | bernyrd | noooo do not parse output of `ip` |
| 02:29.45 | bernyrd | use `/sys/class/net` |
| 02:29.52 | SerajewelKS | i mean for human inspection |
| 02:30.05 | SerajewelKS | if i write the output of ip link somewhere then read that file off of the card i can discover the interface name manually |
| 02:30.10 | bernyrd | ah ok fair enough |
| 02:30.33 | SerajewelKS | guess i'll give that a shot then |
| 02:30.46 | bernyrd | recommend doing this development trying to run your SD card image in qemu though, or... well let me see if qemu arm is still hard to use |
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| 02:33.07 | bernyrd | yeah maybe device is faster |
| 02:33.49 | bernyrd | oh, haha, no I see what you mean now |
| 02:33.52 | bernyrd | A+ solution |
| 02:34.57 | SerajewelKS | sometimes the simplest hacks are the best |
| 02:35.02 | SerajewelKS | "poor man's ssh" |
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| 02:38.16 | SerajewelKS | hmm right, rc.local isn't a thing anymore |
| 02:38.21 | SerajewelKS | i get to figure out the systemd way |
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| 02:47.33 | mcmx | https://wiki.debian.org/DebianArt links to http://collab.debian.net/art |
| 02:48.10 | mcmx | and all the blog entries there have a bunch of spam comments, can someone moderate them or just disable comments entirely? |
| 02:48.22 | mcmx | http://collab.debian.net/art/blog/welcome-to-debianart.org-now-is-collab.debian.netart |
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| 02:57.55 | tomreyn | and what's worse is the "nofollow" tag is misspelt. |
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| 03:59.40 | SerajewelKS | bernyrd: nothing in /tmp so i guess there was some other boot-related failure. or i messed up my systemd unit. |
| 04:00.52 | SerajewelKS | bernyrd: /var/log is also pretty empty which should have been a clue. so i guess boot totally failed. |
| 04:02.05 | SerajewelKS | bernyrd: guess it's time to write the ubuntu image and see if that even comes up |
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| 04:15.54 | SerajewelKS | bernyrd: yep that worked. there must be something wrong with how i set up the kernel/bootloader. |
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| 04:16.47 | SerajewelKS | so now i have to figure out if i want to try to get debian working or just accept ubuntu :/ |
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| 04:19.14 | SerajewelKS | it's just going to be an iscsi server so maybe i just hold my nose and use ubuntu |
| 04:19.23 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: Have you looked at the install guide for ways to install debian from the Ubuntu install? |
| 04:20.33 | SerajewelKS | karlpinc: i haven't. my first attempt was to create an sd card image using /dev/loop and multistrap |
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| 04:21.04 | SerajewelKS | but this SBC uses u-boot and some funky custom firmware blobs and who knows if i did everything right |
| 04:21.21 | karlpinc | SerajewelKS: I don't know how much it will help, if you've firmware issues. But the uboot part should require less fussing -- I'd think. Haven't done it in ages. |
| 04:21.50 | SerajewelKS | not having a serial adapter doesn't help... i've no idea why boot even failed |
| 04:24.30 | SerajewelKS | anyway it's late, i'll work on it more in the morning |
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| 04:32.12 | Xernot | Hello |
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| 05:07.23 | DarkTrick | Hello, is my assumption correct, that (package) gjiten is not in the repos of Buster? |
| 05:09.36 | diogenes_ | ,v gjiten |
| 05:09.37 | judd | Package: gjiten on amd64 -- jessie: 2.6-2.3; stretch: 2.6-3; bullseye: 2.6-3.1; buster: 2.6-3.1; sid: 2.6-3.1 |
| 05:09.49 | DarkTrick | ok, I guess it's in |
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| 05:10.26 | DarkTrick | is there another way of checking the packages inside the repo instead of `,v` inside IRC? |
| 05:10.36 | DarkTrick | (apt-browse.org did not show it in buster) |
| 05:11.00 | diogenes_ | apt search gjiten |
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| 05:15.32 | DarkTrick | This would imply me having debian, right? |
| 05:15.37 | DarkTrick | I'm using Ubuntu |
| 05:15.50 | diogenes_ | lol |
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| 05:17.10 | annadane | i hate to break this to you but debian isn't ubuntu and will have differences |
| 05:18.39 | DarkTrick | annadane, my guess is, that gjiten within ubuntu is inherited from debian. |
| 05:18.58 | DarkTrick | I'd like to update the package currently in production. |
| 05:19.21 | annadane | anyway, to search DEBIAN packages... apt search gjiten or /msg dpkv v gjiten |
| 05:19.24 | DarkTrick | So I thought updating it within the debian repos would be more efficient than in ubuntu |
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| 05:19.59 | annadane | errr |
| 05:20.03 | annadane | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:20.14 | annadane | and it's not even dpkg, it's judd |
| 05:20.20 | annadane | it's clearly too late to be on irc |
| 05:21.11 | DarkTrick | judd worked, thanks! |
| 05:21.25 | annadane | or search packages.debian.org |
| 05:21.42 | annadane | what do you mean 'updating it within the debian repos' |
| 05:21.49 | annadane | i hope you're not mixing debian and ubuntu packages |
| 05:22.04 | annadane | !frankendebian |
| 05:22.04 | dpkg | When you get random packages from random repositories, mix multiple releases of Debian, or mix Debian and derived distributions, you have a mess. There's no way anyone can support this "distribution of Frankenstein" and #debian certainly doesn't want to even try. Ask me about <reinstall> |
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| 05:23.16 | DarkTrick | annadane, I actually don't know, if I mix them. |
| 05:23.25 | DarkTrick | So, let me ask differently |
| 05:24.08 | DarkTrick | gjiten is inside the debian repos and inside the ubuntu repos. If I want to update it in both repos, do I have to do the "update process" twice? |
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| 05:25.13 | DarkTrick | annadane, Thank you for the link to packages.debian.org |
| 05:26.09 | annadane | so in other words on ubuntu you're using both versions of this package, debian's and ubuntu's |
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| 05:27.32 | annadane | to answer your question literally, on ubuntu you should be able to upgrade *everything* with an apt upgrade |
| 05:27.39 | annadane | for whatever 3rd party repositories you have added |
| 05:27.45 | annadane | that's the extent of my knowledge, anyway |
| 05:27.58 | DarkTrick | WIth "update" I mean, that I fixed bugs inside the code |
| 05:28.15 | annadane | i would just ask #ubuntu... |
| 05:29.21 | DarkTrick | I would like the fixed version of the package to be available for everyone |
| 05:30.03 | annadane | that's fair. that package might be in stable-backports or unstable, but unless it's a serious bug packages in stable tend not to get too many updates |
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| 05:42.59 | DarkTrick | Definitely not a serious bug. I don't care if it takes until the next bigger release to be in the stable repos |
| 05:43.14 | DarkTrick | It would just be nice, if it would end up there "someday" |
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| 05:43.38 | DarkTrick | What should I do next, to move that process forward? |
| 05:44.39 | annadane | i'm not great with those questions, i guess a good starting point would be to ask #debian-mentors on irc.oftc.net |
| 05:46.24 | DarkTrick | annadane, thank you for the hint. I will try and ask there :) |
| 05:48.49 | annadane | DarkTrick, https://mentors.debian.net/intro-maintainers |
| 05:48.52 | annadane | there we go |
| 05:49.52 | DarkTrick | thank, I will check it out! g2g for now |
| 05:50.04 | DarkTrick | *thank you |
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| 05:54.38 | annadane | Achievement Get: Answer A Trivial Question |
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| 06:01.39 | jim | I don't work?! |
| 06:02.07 | jim | err nmm, EWIN |
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| 06:03.12 | annadane | go home drunk, you're jim |
| 06:03.53 | Haohmaru | and don't jim&drive |
| 06:04.09 | jim | I'm not as think as you drunk I am... |
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| 06:05.10 | Haohmaru | we usually overestimate, so ur think enough |
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| 06:13.38 | la_mettrie | might you have recommendations about application that captures video & audio of an application (application's window)? i've tried recordyourdesktop so far but it gives very jerky output for some reason |
| 06:14.19 | free_speech | la_mettrie, ever tried SimpleScreenRecorder? sudo apt install simplescreenrecorder |
| 06:14.39 | free_speech | ,info simplescreenrecorder |
| 06:14.40 | judd | Package simplescreenrecorder (video, optional) in buster/amd64: Feature-rich screen recorder for X11 and OpenGL. Version: 0.3.11-1+b1; Size: 1271.4k; Installed: 3513k; Homepage: http://www.maartenbaert.be/simplescreenrecorder/; Screenshot: https://screenshots.debian.net/package/simplescreenrecorder |
| 06:15.45 | annadane | that's now the longest package name i've seen |
| 06:16.09 | la_mettrie | thanks, i'll try it |
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| 06:27.51 | vkolchev | Hi. I fully updated my buster install recently, but lsb_Release still shows release:10 for me. Isn't it supposed to show 10.1? |
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| 06:55.03 | ratrace | vkolchev: cat /etc/debian_version ; lsb_release isn't a thing in Debian for quite some time now |
| 06:55.42 | vkolchev | ratrace, oh, thx |
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| 06:56.12 | ratrace | or, to be precise, support for LSB isn't. |
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| 07:04.57 | Haohmaru | i wouldn't let my cat into /etc/ |
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| 07:21.30 | f451 | hi guys.. i got a question about partitioning.. is anybody here and could help me.. ? |
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| 07:24.08 | ratrace | f451: nope, nobody here. |
| 07:25.57 | f451 | :) |
| 07:26.41 | ratrace | !ask |
| 07:26.41 | dpkg | If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org. See <smart questions><errors>. |
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| 07:30.36 | f451 | I have a Question about partitioning.. Is it possible to create a second partition afterwards? I have a LVM partition Table with encryption. But now i would like to split it up in 2 partitions .. but i dont want to reinstall everything again . because i dont have a external drive to backup my files.. |
| 07:30.58 | f451 | so my question is: is it possible afterwards without loosing files? |
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| 07:31.25 | f451 | or do i need to wait for my paycheck and get a second drive?! |
| 07:31.34 | ratrace | f451: split what up? A GPT partition or LV? |
| 07:31.40 | f451 | lvm |
| 07:31.53 | f451 | with encryption |
| 07:32.01 | f451 | sda5 |
| 07:32.22 | ratrace | LVM is not a single object you can split. so please be precise, which of the layers exactly you want |
| 07:33.57 | ratrace | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:34.30 | ratrace | can you split one without losing contents? you can in theory reduce a LV thus producing enough free space to add another. |
| 07:35.01 | ratrace | if your VG is made of PVs that are LUKS containers atop of GTP partitions, then no, you can't split up that GTP partition |
| 07:35.12 | ratrace | *GPT |
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| 07:35.25 | f451 | my drive is splitted up in 3 parts.. sda 1 as ext4 with the bootloader installed.. and a extended partition with my encryption.. my |
| 07:35.47 | jelly | f451: pastebin the output of "lsblk" |
| 07:36.08 | jelly | easier than explaining the layering and setup |
| 07:36.26 | f451 | he answered my question allready |
| 07:36.26 | ratrace | indeed |
| 07:36.34 | f451 | but thank you !!! |
| 07:36.34 | ratrace | (indeed show us with lsblk) |
| 07:36.37 | f451 | sda 8:0 0 465,8G 0 disk |
| 07:36.37 | f451 | ââsda1 8:1 0 609M 0 part /boot |
| 07:36.37 | f451 | ââsda2 8:2 0 1K 0 part |
| 07:36.37 | f451 | ââsda5 8:5 0 465,2G 0 part |
| 07:36.37 | f451 | <PROTECTED> |
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| 07:37.04 | jelly | !paste |
| 07:37.04 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: http://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: http://file.io/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): http://file.io or http://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>. |
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| 07:39.19 | ratrace | f451: in theory you could also reduce layers until you free up enough space on the lowest layer, to create another logical partition but that requires a lot of hassle with temporary disk space to shrink and move around LVs, VGs, PVs and LUKS containers. Too much hassle. |
| 07:39.29 | jelly | f451: you can boot a livecd and shrink your root fs and its LV |
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| 07:40.13 | jelly | that will make space in the same LVM VG (and same single luks encrypted space) for a second or third LV+filesystem |
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| 07:40.48 | jelly | shrinking ext4 is an offline task, has to be done while the fs is not mounted, that's why livecd |
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| 07:41.58 | f451 | how does it work? and which livecd should i use :D how to dd a iso to a usb is not new for me . |
| 07:42.14 | f451 | but this partitioning stuff is new.. |
| 07:42.39 | ratrace | f451: what _exactly_ do you want to achieve though? add another filesystem in your LVM? |
| 07:42.53 | ratrace | or add a whole new partition _beside_ the existing encrypted LVM |
| 07:43.38 | f451 | i would like to add a new partition but i think i dont try this shrinking stu |
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| 07:43.54 | f451 | stuff and wait till monday for a new disk |
| 07:44.04 | ratrace | f451: so, you want to add sd6? |
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| 07:44.09 | ratrace | sda6 |
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| 07:45.30 | f451 | yes but i think i order an external drive and wait for monday |
| 07:46.14 | ratrace | f451: and now to avoid XY problem... do you, again, want a completely separate partition, or just add more space to your VG? |
| 07:46.39 | f451 | yes i want a separate partition |
| 07:46.47 | ratrace | mkay. |
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| 07:47.39 | jelly | f451: and what do you need the separate partition for? |
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| 07:49.51 | f451 | to share stuff in my local network and store my privat data encrypted and things like movies for my daughter and musik and family pictures accessable for my family |
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| 08:31.41 | boy | How to change the MIME type association systemwide? Everything I could find is userwide, I want systemwide |
| 08:32.37 | boy | With a tool, not with manually editing config files |
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| 08:41.24 | andre144k | hi all, anyone have an idea howto kill a hanging "sync" process? |
| 08:41.49 | andre144k | killall sync - doesnt give error, but prozess is not stopped |
| 08:41.57 | andre144k | kill -9 <pid> - same |
| 08:42.13 | Haohmaru | pkill? |
| 08:42.29 | boy | is the process in state D? ps aux | grep sync |
| 08:42.46 | boy | if so, kill won't have effect until the process gets out of state D |
| 08:43.38 | boy | solved the mime thing, seems a tool doesn't exist, /usr/share/applications/mimeapps.list is the cleanest way |
| 08:44.16 | Haohmaru | my impression is that usually the "tool" in question is a text editor :/ |
| 08:44.49 | andre144k | yes - they are all in D |
| 08:45.53 | andre144k | pkill willnot help also |
| 08:45.55 | boy | D means uninterruptible wait for input-output. A prog staying in D for long can mean your devices are slow, or the physical link broke, etc |
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| 08:46.21 | andre144k | its a nfs-storage ... |
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| 08:46.55 | Haohmaru | what if you.. disconnect the network? |
| 08:47.10 | andre144k | umount -f /mnt/backup_e37 - it says: device busy |
| 08:47.19 | andre144k | i try out |
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| 08:47.46 | andre144k | i cant do... cause its a database server... |
| 08:48.01 | Haohmaru | i had a samba shared folder mounted (via fstab) before.. and i had trouble when the server was not there |
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| 08:49.27 | Haohmaru | nfs == storage over the network, right? is the server alive? |
| 08:49.31 | Haohmaru | can you ping it |
| 08:50.22 | boy | had this situation lots of times, just googled to learn found https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/31981 |
| 08:50.56 | boy | can you remount with the flags mentioned at the link? |
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| 08:53.41 | swivel | andre144k: dmesg may have some useful information for you |
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| 08:54.57 | andre144k | swivel, urgs ... yes of course :) |
| 08:55.21 | andre144k | EXT4-fs (loop5): previous I/O error to superblock detected |
| 08:55.21 | andre144k | EXT4-fs error (device loop5): ext4_find_entry:934: inode #2: comm updatedb: read |
| 08:55.45 | andre144k | Buffer I/O error on device loop5, logical block 23541502 |
| 08:55.50 | andre144k | and many other messages... |
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| 08:56.35 | jelly | andre144k: do you have backups? |
| 08:57.03 | jelly | (and why is there an ext4 on a loopback device, wtf) |
| 08:57.33 | andre144k | loop5 seems to be an old mount-point from VEEAM backup... when u mount in a backupup its using loop |
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| 08:58.25 | jelly | look at /var/log/kern.log or use -T option for dmesg to see which errors are fresh |
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| 08:58.51 | jelly | errors concerning a block device that isn't mounted or existing at all any more are not relevant |
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| 09:04.24 | andre144k | jelly, yes... - its doesnt mouted |
| 09:04.31 | andre144k | ill reboot mashine later |
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| 09:26.07 | gerforce | when i boot my vm which is debian Buster, my NIC gets two ipv4 address |
| 09:26.14 | gerforce | http://paste.debian.net/1102912/ |
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| 09:27.59 | stockholm | hi |
| 09:28.53 | gerforce | i found it got the address 192.168.45.143 from the dhcp server according system logs, but have no idea with the other address. |
| 09:29.20 | netcrash | gerforce: cool , one is scope global dynamic and the other scope global secondary dynamic |
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| 09:30.38 | stockholm | i want to set up a chroot to run user executable code inside and protect my system. This is a server running batch jobs for users. I would like to use a prestine chroot for each new job, so setup and teardown should be quick. |
| 09:30.43 | stockholm | how can i do that? |
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| 09:31.18 | gerforce | netcrash: so ? |
| 09:31.50 | netcrash | gerforce: no idea |
| 09:32.08 | stockholm | schroot and other tools copy the files, or run dpkg and apt each time. i think it could be faster to link parts of the original file system into the chroot |
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| 10:36.58 | znull | hey i just bought some chinese intelimouse microsoft , and when i plug it on my debian thinkpad it does not work, on windows its ok |
| 10:37.27 | znull | https://pastebin.com/raw/ACPaw4zi |
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| 10:40.17 | limakzi | I have the following Intel card. |
| 10:40.18 | limakzi | https://gist.github.com/limakzi/84831a52f569917393d471a8b42eb420 |
| 10:40.42 | limakzi | I cannot make Video-acceleration working on browser. Neither Chrome, nor Fiefox. |
| 10:40.54 | limakzi | Notebook is T490 with dual cards. |
| 10:41.09 | limakzi | Have you been able to achieve it? |
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| 10:56.59 | ratrace | limakzi: it's not yet supported https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1210727 |
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| 10:57.10 | ratrace | limakzi: unless you're talking about somethign entirely different? |
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| 11:01.23 | limakzi | ratrace Mmm. yes! This is same topic I have seen. |
| 11:01.31 | limakzi | How do you workaround it? |
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| 11:03.48 | ratrace | limakzi: you write code that implements vaapi for firefox, you submit it to bugzilla :) |
| 11:04.00 | ratrace | eh... to mozilla lol |
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| 11:06.37 | limakzi | lol |
| 11:06.50 | limakzi | ratrace It impacts fast each browser. :-P |
| 11:07.07 | ratrace | I'm sure it does |
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| 11:12.38 | limakzi | ratrace Mmm. The only thing that left me is to disable Intel driver and enable NV driver. |
| 11:12.46 | limakzi | But that will cost me a lot of... power. |
| 11:12.49 | limakzi | And battery. |
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| 11:13.36 | Akuw | what is a ELF 64-bit LSB core file ? |
| 11:13.40 | Akuw | binary file? |
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| 11:14.28 | Akuw | operative system file? |
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| 11:20.12 | debuser_ | Hi. I've got an Asus Transformer Book T100T, where Debian Buster supports almost all of the hardware fairly well. But thing is, backlight adjustment doesn't work properly, not even w/ Debian Testing packages - while it *does* work fine in Fedora. Is there any way to figure out what Fedora is doing right that Debian is failing at? |
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| 11:21.22 | diogenes_ | debuser_, define "doesn't work properly". |
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| 11:23.04 | debuser_ | diogenes_, the GNOME interface shows backlight adjustment working properly, even when I press the keyboard buttions - but the actual backlight stays at max brightness. from looking at info on the web, it seems to be related to the ACPI firmware interface not working properly. |
| 11:23.58 | debuser_ | diogenes_, here on Fedora, I don't even see the acpi interface being enabled, just the intel one (which is a raw hardware control and thus normally not preferred) |
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| 11:24.45 | diogenes_ | try to boot with either of these: acpi_backlight=native acpi_backlight=vendor acpi_backlight=intel acpi_backlight=video and see which one works for you, i'd start with acpi_backlight=native (it worked for me on an acer laptop. |
| 11:24.59 | diogenes_ | try one at a time. |
| 11:26.18 | limakzi | diogenes_I have faced similar problems with my card as well. :-) |
| 11:26.41 | debuser_ | thanks. is there any way of getting this fixed for other users w/ the same hardware, in case one of these works? I mean, Fedora is doing the right thing out of the box somehow |
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| 11:28.03 | diogenes_ | debuser_, that's unlickely that none of those would work but, jsut in case there is something deeper then you gonna have to go through this: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Backlight |
| 11:28.11 | limakzi | debuser_I have switched to Light. |
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| 12:22.25 | Xalys | Hi. Is it possible to not show other user's home dirs in /home without stuff like chroot? |
| 12:23.35 | Haohmaru | maybe with attributes? |
| 12:23.45 | vlt | Xalys: You mean permissions 0700, for example? |
| 12:25.01 | Xalys | Well, I mean not showing them at all when a user doesn't have read permission to a dir. I sometimes get this request from customers - while I don't think it makes too much sense (the important thing is that users can't access each other's files) - I'm looking for ways to achieve this without complicated stuff like chrooting. |
| 12:26.33 | Haohmaru | well, one normal user can browse into another normal user's homedir and see some files, but for example i don't think you can see those in /home/user/.config/ |
| 12:26.46 | Haohmaru | and that's probably done with folder attributes |
| 12:27.03 | section1 | remove the read from all |
| 12:27.11 | section1 | to home dir |
| 12:27.11 | Haohmaru | root can set them |
| 12:27.31 | Xalys | My user's home dirs have permissions 0750 , so users are not able to see other user's files at all |
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| 12:29.43 | section1 | Xalys, try chmod 751 /home |
| 12:30.08 | section1 | if try to list /home will get perm denied |
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| 12:30.40 | Xalys | Ah, I didn't think of that. That works too. |
| 12:30.56 | Xalys | I guess that solution is more or less even 'good' than chmodding all user's home dirs :) |
| 12:31.33 | section1 | yeah...btw if a normal user read the passwd file can get ah list of posible homes |
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| 12:32.08 | section1 | s/ah list of posible/s list of possible/ |
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| 12:32.43 | Xalys | That's true. |
| 12:32.57 | Xalys | I've been looking at ways to hide /etc/passwd stuff as well, but I can only find hacky solutions |
| 12:33.19 | Xalys | I'm currently using CloudLinux (commercial RHEL deriative) which virtualizes /etc/ and only puts system users and the user themselves in passwd |
| 12:33.37 | Xalys | But due to the fact that it's commercial and I prefer complete freedom I'm switching to debian with systemd-based cgroups |
| 12:33.39 | section1 | ah |
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| 12:34.52 | Xalys | So any suggestions to virtualize /etc/passwd are welcome but I'm not sure it can be done without hacky things/chroot/whatever ): |
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| 12:41.09 | thrmo | I've installed UFW on debian (buster) but everytime I reboot it goes back to inactive, is there any other firewall manager overriding it? |
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| 12:43.44 | OneM_Industries | Hello! |
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| 12:43.59 | OneM_Industries | I have a question, more than likely a stupid one. |
| 12:44.50 | Fox | Xalys: you could use sssd and ldap |
| 12:45.14 | OneM_Industries | So, I logged into a machine I hadn't booted up for a while, and it informed me that I had new mail. |
| 12:46.27 | OneM_Industries | My question is, how do I get it to forward that mail to my main (Gmail) account? I don't often log into this machine, but don't want to miss important messages. |
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| 12:47.00 | OneM_Industries | If this is a stupid idea, then that's an alright answer too. |
| 12:47.31 | Fox | edit /etc/alias and once you're done type newaliases |
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| 12:49.37 | dvs | is not sure if the .forward file still works. |
| 12:52.56 | Fox | that should work too dvs |
| 12:53.08 | netcrash | thrmo: using ufw enable doesn't make it stay enabled after reboot? |
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| 12:54.35 | thrmo | netcrash, no as soon as I reboot status goes back to inactive |
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| 12:58.23 | LtL | OneM_Industries: install mutt and read mail from a terminal, root's mail is forwarded to the first user as dictated in /etc/aliases forwarding to gmail would be a pain. |
| 12:58.34 | OneM_Industries | Ah, ok. |
| 12:59.23 | LtL | OneM_Industries: sending from mutt would require a proper MTA config, big pain. |
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| 12:59.42 | OneM_Industries | Ah, good to know. Thank you! |
| 13:00.21 | LtL | OneM_Industries: you're welcome |
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| 13:03.13 | netcrash | thrmo: try sudo systemctl enable ufw |
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| 13:05.09 | LtL | OneM_Industries: just a note, if you use a MUA to access gmail, like a GUI app, you'll need to tell gmail to allow insecure apps. |
| 13:05.58 | OneM_Industries | Alright. |
| 13:06.49 | OneM_Industries | Yeah, I mainly just wanted to have the system messages forward to somewhere that would be checked a bit more often. |
| 13:07.55 | netcrash | Isn't google discontinuing less secure apps ? |
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| 13:08.29 | LtL | netcrash: i wouldn't be surprised if they do. |
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| 13:09.20 | LtL | OneM_Industries: by default root's mail is forwarded to the first user ID 1000 typically. |
| 13:09.54 | OneM_Industries | Yeah, that's where it's been ending up. |
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| 13:13.35 | tedus | hi there. i got a dumb question about lts |
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| 13:13.50 | thrmo | i will, thanks netcrash |
| 13:14.04 | tedus | If i get it right debian 9/stretch has end of life 2020 and lts end 2022 right? |
| 13:14.43 | tedus | Does that mean lts end till First of January 2022 or 31 December 2022? |
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| 13:19.24 | Habbie | !lts |
| 13:19.25 | dpkg | Debian Long Term Support (LTS) is a project to extend the lifetime of all Debian stable releases to (at least) 5 years. Debian LTS is not handled by the Debian security team, but by a separate group of volunteers and companies. Ask me about <jessie-lts> and see https://wiki.debian.org/LTS for more information. #debian-lts on irc.oftc.net. |
| 13:19.31 | Habbie | tedus, ^ |
| 13:20.44 | tedus | i know that - but is the 5 years over early or end of 2022 for debian 9 |
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| 13:21.26 | Habbie | tedus, click the url.. |
| 13:22.07 | tedus | i read exactly that side before ;) and it says only the years - nothing about start of year - or end of year |
| 13:22.21 | Habbie | tedus, i can only recommend you buy glasses.. |
| 13:22.30 | Habbie | tedus, it says 'June 2022' here |
| 13:22.39 | Habbie | tedus, and it has said so for over a year |
| 13:22.56 | tedus | yeah you are right. now i think i might need new glasses |
| 13:23.01 | tedus | shame on me |
| 13:23.26 | tedus | thanks for the help and makin me feel a bit dumb :D |
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| 13:40.48 | netcrash | for vmstat what would be considered dangered values? |
| 13:41.45 | greycat | There's no such thing as a "dangerous value". The point of the tool is to help you tell whether your system's slowness is due to lack of memory, or too many context switches, or whatever. |
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| 13:51.32 | humpled | dangered |
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| 14:00.05 | LtL | OneM_Industries: one more thing i didn't mention, mutt can send mail with configuration using sendmail, receiving on the other hand requires a configured MTA, exim4, or postfix and preferable a FQDN and an ISP that doesn't block ports. mailservers are not easy. |
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| 14:00.43 | OneM_Industries | I'm getting that impression. |
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| 14:01.57 | LtL | OneM_Industries: if you go the mailserver route, i recommend postfix. |
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| 14:03.29 | OneM_Industries | Yeah, I'll just make an effort to log into this thing slightly more often. |
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| 14:04.58 | OneM_Industries | Setting up a mailserver just for that simply doesn't pass this test: https://xkcd.com/1205/ ;P |
| 14:06.48 | LtL | OneM_Industries: i get the picture, mailservers are a huge security issue |
| 14:07.36 | OneM_Industries | Yeah, I kinda got that impression. |
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| 14:20.42 | SerajewelKS | OneM_Industries: if all you want is for email to be forwarded off-site, that's really not that difficult and isn't much of a security risk since you can do so without opening port 25 to the world |
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| 14:21.06 | greycat | Agreed. Outgoing-only email is pretty common. |
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| 14:22.17 | OneM_Industries | Yeah, that's all I wanted. |
| 14:22.38 | OneM_Industries | This machine shouldn't ever be getting mail, it's going to be a fileserver. |
| 14:22.56 | OneM_Industries | (Well, assuming I can get NextCloud to install on it, that is.) |
| 14:23.02 | SerajewelKS | then you could do that using postfix with an alias that targets a remote email address |
| 14:23.29 | SerajewelKS | if the remote MX doesn't trust your server or treats it as spam, you can configure postfix to use a smarthost (an intermediate SMTP relay) that the final MX does trust |
| 14:23.38 | greycat | If all you want is for it to send you emails when some warning condition is met, you don't even need postfix. |
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| 14:25.41 | OneM_Industries | Oh? |
| 14:26.38 | greycat | Any MTA will do. Debian uses exim4 by default, and you can configure that to send all outgoing mail through a "smarthost" that's your receiver. |
| 14:26.45 | greycat | Configuring the receiver is much, much more effort. |
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| 14:28.20 | OneM_Industries | Ah, got it. |
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| 14:41.39 | bernyrd | I am not sure smarthost is good thing to do, kind of defeats point of running your own |
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| 14:41.55 | bernyrd | usually if you set up DKIM your messages work |
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| 14:43.22 | greycat | Depends on what your goals are. Are you looking to send emails to arbitrary people from this machine, or only to yourself? |
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| 14:44.29 | LtL | OneM_Industries: i hope i didn't steer you wrong, if you setup yout MTA as a smarthost, any gui app will work just fine, no firewall config needed etc. |
| 14:45.44 | OneM_Industries | greycat: Just to myself. |
| 14:45.59 | greycat | so going the fully generalized route might not be desired |
| 14:46.08 | bernyrd | yeah |
| 14:46.11 | OneM_Industries | LtL: Eeh, no worries. I'm still very, very new to all this, and any help is appreciated. |
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| 14:46.42 | OneM_Industries | This server is basically just me trying to learn how to do all this, so it's nothing critical. |
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| 14:52.04 | debuser_ | Hi, I'm still trying to make the backlight work on my Asus Transformer Book T100T. Non eof the usual acpi_backlight=* boot options seem to work for me. I can't seem to get a /intel_backlight/ directory under /sys/class/backlight/, which is what appears under Fedora. Could it be that Debian is missing some weird firmware that Fedora does ship? I _am_ using the unofficial images with firmware, btw |
| 14:52.19 | bernyrd | your education is important because you are important OneM_Industries. I want you to know that. |
| 14:52.36 | OneM_Industries | Heh, thank you. :) |
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| 15:01.01 | LtL | OneM_Industries: so you are running a server? Should you decide to do mail, postfix is fairly easy, i can't speak for exim4. I don't send or receive mail from my server. |
| 15:01.32 | OneM_Industries | Yeah, just a little something to tinker with. |
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| 15:02.16 | OneM_Industries | The main focus was/is setting up nextcloud, but I'm open to learning about other stuff as well. |
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| 15:09.42 | rapfaria | hello, I have a private repository that I publish packages to. Whenever I "apt update" on my beaglebone it updates the package, but this only works during the day, not at night, and all the other conditions are the same. Anyone here seen something similar? |
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| 15:20.11 | jelly | rapfaria: can you provide complete output of "apt update" when it fails? |
| 15:20.31 | jelly | !paste |
| 15:20.32 | dpkg | Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: http://paste.debian.net | pics/screenshots: http://file.io/ or https://imgur.com/upload | large files up to 100MB (think tar.gz): http://file.io or http://wikisend.com | Remember to tell us the URL of your paste! Cannot cut and paste? Ask me about <pastebinit>, <nopaste>, <wgetpaste>. |
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| 15:24.08 | jhutchins_wk | rapfaria: How does the system know it's "night"? |
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| 15:24.32 | jhutchins_wk | rapfaria: You say it "doesn't work" - how specifically does it fail. |
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| 15:27.22 | bernyrd | what did you do, what did you expect, and what happened |
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| 15:36.45 | istrive | I cant update or install anything using apt in a fresh install of Linux Mint, although I can browse the web and ping servers without any problems... What am I missing? |
| 15:36.57 | SerajewelKS | !mint |
| 15:36.57 | dpkg | Linux Mint is not Debian and is not supported in #debian. Please use their forums at http://forums.linuxmint.com/ or join #linuxmint-help on irc.spotchat.org for support. Linux Mint is variously based on <Ubuntu> with a "Linux Mint Debian Edition" (LMDE) also available. See also <based on debian>, <mintppc>. |
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| 15:43.22 | Strum | hi, i want to install libcurl-dev, but it's a virtual package, i don't know what that means and the documentation doesn't really explain it |
| 15:43.56 | Strum | when i try to install libcurl-dev is says select one to install |
| 15:44.08 | Strum | i don't know which one or how to selct it |
| 15:44.14 | Strum | i don't know which one or how to select it |
| 15:44.20 | greycat | "apt-get -s install libcurl-dev" gives me several choices |
| 15:45.12 | Strum | and? |
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| 15:46.03 | jelly | Strum: you pick one, and install that instead |
| 15:46.16 | Strum | which one though? |
| 15:46.18 | Strum | and why? |
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| 15:46.46 | jelly | choosing the flavor is your call |
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| 15:47.44 | jelly | StuartMI: cURL can be build with different TLS (SSL) libraries, and Debian builds it with three different ones. However, each provides slightly different ABI/API |
| 15:47.51 | jelly | Strum: cURL can be build with different TLS (SSL) libraries, and Debian builds it with three different ones. However, each provides slightly different ABI/API |
| 15:49.25 | Strum | i kinda figured htat bit out |
| 15:49.38 | Strum | which one do i choose though |
| 15:49.38 | mebus | Hey, how can I delete this iptables rule: |
| 15:49.39 | mebus | -A POSTROUTING -d 10.173.0.0/16 -j TTL --ttl-set 1 |
| 15:49.40 | mebus | ? |
| 15:50.49 | jelly | Strum: well that depends on whether you like your piece of software to be built with gnutls. openssl or nss |
| 15:51.43 | Strum | and how would i know? |
| 15:52.06 | jelly | Strum: what do you plan to do with libcurl-dev? |
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| 15:52.17 | black_ant | @mebus, "iptables -D POSTROUTING -d 10.173.0.0/16 -j TTL --ttl-set 1" |
| 15:52.30 | jelly | black_ant: does that work? |
| 15:52.51 | Strum | get and post data to from rest apis |
| 15:53.13 | jelly | Strum: from which language? |
| 15:53.29 | Strum | c++ |
| 15:54.01 | jelly | Strum: is anyone else going to use your code or just you/your company? |
| 15:54.17 | jelly | if you're not going to redistribute, pick openssl, dunno |
| 15:54.17 | mebus | <black_ant "@mebus, "iptables -D POSTROUTING"> iptables: Bad rule (does a matching rule exist in that chain?). |
| 15:55.06 | Strum | just me at this point, but it might devleop int oa commercial product in the future |
| 15:55.29 | Strum | ok, well that was my natural inclination |
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| 15:55.39 | jelly | Strum: if you have to care about licensing, read about openssl licensing compatibility and maybe pick a different flavor. |
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| 15:57.25 | mebus | black_ant: any idea? |
| 15:57.25 | black_ant | @jelly I dont have the same chain -- but to delete iptables rule, you run the same above commands but replace the â-Aâ with â-Dâ |
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| 15:57.55 | black_ant | correct me if I am wrong (*_*) |
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| 15:59.16 | Strum | thanks jelly, i think i'll just use it for now and worry abit that if i need to later |
| 15:59.23 | Strum | about |
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| 16:04.02 | mebus | black_ant: that does not work |
| 16:05.27 | jelly | black_ant: the manual doesn't say anything about that kind of syntax working |
| 16:05.30 | jelly | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:05.49 | jelly | that's the only supported -D thing |
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| 16:07.38 | black_ant | @jelly yous right |
| 16:08.22 | jelly | mebus: two things, 1) it's important to note which "table" the "POSTROUTING" chain is in; 2) you can use iptables -t tablenamehere -L --line-numbers to get the line number for each rule |
| 16:08.23 | black_ant | @mebus list the rules to see the index i.e "iptables -t nat -L --line-numbers" |
| 16:09.03 | black_ant | then try "iptables -t nat -D POSTROUTING <index>" |
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| 16:09.25 | black_ant | replacing index with the rule_num |
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| 16:15.53 | jelly | black_ant: it's perhaps better to avoid giving advice you haven't confirmed to be working even once |
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| 16:19.01 | black_ant | fairdos @jelly, unfortunately I don't use iptables I was trying to be helpful |
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| 16:27.10 | ratrace | !@ |
| 16:27.10 | dpkg | @ is used to separate the username from the hostname in an email address, to denote channel operators on IRC, and to direct comments to particular users in some web forums. It is NOT used to direct comments on IRC; use "name: ..." instead of "@name ...". |
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| 16:27.14 | ratrace | black_ant: ^^^ |
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| 16:31.01 | Terminus | hey guys, how do i get rid of this notification on buster? https://imgur.com/a/8QOhI4P |
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| 16:31.28 | Terminus | i've disabled power notifications in settings but i'm still getting it. |
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| 16:32.36 | oer | Terminus, go down to power, there are some settings too |
| 16:33.11 | mebus | black_ant: had to specify -t mangle |
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| 16:35.13 | Terminus | oer: yes but i don't want to alter any power settings themselves, just get rid of the notification. |
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| 16:35.57 | black_ant | ratrace: thanks |
| 16:36.28 | black_ant | mebus: nice one |
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| 16:38.18 | Terminus | i guess it's a bug so i should just file a bug report |
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| 16:44.36 | litb | hello all |
| 16:44.56 | litb | in my system I only have a /usr/share/fonts/truetype/droid/DroidSansFallbackFull.ttf |
| 16:45.06 | litb | when I open it in gnome-font-viewer , I only see asian characters |
| 16:45.47 | litb | what's this TTF file about? According to gtk font choosing dialogs, I also have bold and italic versions of that font. But there's no -bold.ttf etc file!? |
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| 17:22.07 | jhutchins_wk1 | litb: You may want to search apt for font packages. True Type Fonts usually contain variations like that. |
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| 17:24.48 | plujon | git clone git://anonscm.debian.org/collab-maint/lsof.git # should this work? |
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| 17:31.37 | section1 | looks like anonscm.debian.org is discontinued |
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| 17:36.48 | AlpacaFace | Hi. Where are the signify-openbsd-keys located after the package is installed? |
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| 17:39.28 | n_1-c_k | AlpacaFace, dpkg --listfiles signify-openbsd-keys will list all the files in the package. |
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| 17:40.16 | AlpacaFace | perfect. thanks |
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| 17:51.52 | SerajewelKS | when running an iscsi target, is there some standard way to tell the system that you don't want specific devices probed for any subvolumes (partitions, lvm, md-raid, etc.)? |
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| 17:58.29 | bernyrd | yeah |
| 17:59.00 | bernyrd | it is block device level I think, unless you want to blacklist specific iscsi port (or device sometimes) |
| 17:59.10 | bernyrd | using udev |
| 18:00.25 | bernyrd | ok I am not finding specifically what you want, but look at https://superuser.com/questions/1206664/disable-mtp-udev-rules-for-specific-device-so-it-can-be-mount-as-a-usb-mass-stor |
| 18:00.25 | bernyrd | also check questions relating to blacklist USB device |
| 18:00.25 | bernyrd | then check udev doc, there will be strings for ISCSI |
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| 18:19.38 | SerajewelKS | bernyrd: i don't want to blacklist discovery of the device itself, i am serving it over iscsi. i just want to prevent the iscsi server from doing things like activating LVM VGs and stuff on it. |
| 18:20.30 | SerajewelKS | there is a conf file for lvm where i can blacklist PV probing |
| 18:20.57 | SerajewelKS | i just wondered if there was a more generic mechanism where i can tell the whole system that a specific device is going to be served and i don't want _anything_ on the system trying to find volumes on it |
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| 18:21.29 | jhutchins_wk1 | SerajewelKS: Not that that makes any sense. |
| 18:21.34 | SerajewelKS | i guess one option might be to partition it on the iscsi server, then also partition it on the initiator -- since linux doesn't look for partitions inside partitions |
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| 18:25.30 | SerajewelKS | hmm the target doesn't use LVM or md-raid, i guess i could just blacklist those kernel modules? |
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| 18:38.34 | bitflips | evening all, can anyone comment on the safety of using the non-free buster iso packages here https://cdimage.debian.org ? any help greatly appreciated |
| 18:38.55 | greycat | !firmware images |
| 18:38.55 | dpkg | Unofficial <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages are available from http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/amd64/iso-cd/ |
| 18:39.05 | greycat | if you mean those, they're pretty widely trusted |
| 18:40.28 | bitflips | thanks greycat, yep, those are the ones - cheers |
| 18:43.21 | ratrace | !graycatsnack |
| 18:43.35 | ratrace | !greycatsnack |
| 18:43.35 | dpkg | hey greycat, here's a chocolate chip cookie for all the hard work |
| 18:44.02 | dvs | jealous! |
| 18:44.22 | ratrace | I went spelunking through the dpkg's factoid database. found a few.... gems. mostly NSFW rubbish though. |
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| 18:48.20 | greycat | the tone of #debian was rather different 10-15 years ago |
| 18:48.43 | greycat | some of them have been removed, some not |
| 18:49.37 | ratrace | sounds like it was infested with a lot of very immature PFYs :) |
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| 18:49.40 | bitflips | apologies, thanks dpkg too for correcting my link, didn't see you in the middle of greycat's comments |
| 18:49.58 | ratrace | !botsnack |
| 18:49.58 | dpkg | ratrace: :) |
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| 18:57.52 | hans_ | does mariadb's debian-sys-maint have a default password? |
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| 18:59.49 | hans_ | > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'debian-sys-maint'@'localhost' (using password: NO) |
| 18:59.51 | hans_ | guess so |
| 19:00.35 | hans_ | oh, the password is available in /etc/mysql/debian.cnf |
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| 19:06.34 | amosbird | Hi, where can I get debuild? |
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| 19:08.36 | phogg | amosbird: devscripts |
| 19:09.31 | amosbird | thanks |
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| 19:19.09 | amosbird | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:19.18 | amosbird | what should I do to have that file? |
| 19:20.18 | znull | hey anyone could help me howto debug this? this mouse works on windows but not on linux https://pastebin.com/raw/DNGCqi8p anyone know how could i debug this ? https://tinyurl.com/y5kzkqko |
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| 19:20.39 | greycat | amosbird: restore from backup |
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| 19:20.57 | greycat | amosbird: there are also potentially several backup copies of the status file in /var/lib/dpkg/ if you're lucky... |
| 19:21.10 | greycat | well, maybe just one. |
| 19:21.37 | greycat | (why did I think there were like 10 backup copies...) |
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| 19:24.08 | amosbird | ok.. |
| 19:24.16 | amosbird | btw, can I debuild without dep checking? |
| 19:24.20 | amosbird | just for testing |
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| 19:26.50 | Sector | Hello there I am using debian 10.1 buster and nvidia drivers, but I get an error Can you help me? |
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| 19:42.04 | free_speech | read carefully. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html |
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| 19:45.20 | EdePopede | !ask |
| 19:45.20 | dpkg | If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org. See <smart questions><errors>. |
| 19:45.29 | ratrace | they're long gone |
| 19:45.39 | znull | anyone knows what is MTP device ? https://pastebin.com/raw/LYsWf3iD |
| 19:45.55 | EdePopede | oh. these youngsters don't have time anymore nowadays |
| 19:46.11 | greycat | !mtp |
| 19:46.11 | dpkg | Media Transfer Protocol (MTP) is a Microsoft protocol for transferring images, music (etc.) between a computer and a portable device. Standardized as a USB device class in 2008. The libmtp shared library provides MTP interoperability for applications including <Amarok>, <Audacious>, <Banshee> and <Rhythmbox>; <jmtpfs> provides conventional filesystem access. See also <PTP>. |
| 19:46.20 | ratrace | EdePopede: CADT |
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| 19:49.08 | amosbird | hmm, this dh_clean rule is weird |
| 19:49.10 | amosbird | dh_clean: mv debian/.debhelper/bucket/files/fbc2337aa59a204f5d74743b82c8be7aab8b39853b4e54a888008f70430c4305.tmp zookeeper/src/c/config.guess: No such file or directory |
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| 19:54.58 | atdq | Hello, I try to use Debian image with Qemu â debian-10-generic-amd64-20190909-10.qcow2. |
| 19:54.58 | atdq | But how I should log-in? I tried to use cloud-init but without success. |
| 19:55.43 | somiaj | where did you get this image? |
| 19:56.04 | atdq | Thanks for reply! https://cloud.debian.org/images/cloud/buster/20190909-10/ |
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| 19:57.01 | greycat | Huh, cloud.debian.org just redirects to debian.org/CD/ |
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| 19:57.33 | somiaj | if you do more than just that, you get inside their file tree, but not finding any docs on how to login to the images |
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| 19:58.00 | greycat | and apparently cloud.debian.org/images/cloud redirects to cdimage.debian.org/images/cloud |
| 19:58.41 | somiaj | https://wiki.debian.org/Cloud#What_is_the_default_login_name_on_the_Debian_AMIs.3F |
| 19:58.43 | greycat | It's like they don't have any actual *pages* for whatever or whoever they are. Just redirects. |
| 19:58.53 | somiaj | that is what I found. |
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| 19:59.31 | somiaj | I think when working with AWS, an ssh key pair is generated when you boot the image. I'm unsure how to generate this key pair if running locally on qemu |
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| 20:01.17 | somiaj | atdq: I see a #debian-cloud on irc.oftc.net, maybe someone there knows. |
| 20:02.08 | somiaj | but I think you need to genreate a ssh key-pair in the initilization/boot of the image, but I have no clue how. |
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| 20:03.30 | okraits | I did a dist-upgrade from stretch to buster yesterday and now I have the problem that the completion for apt in zsh (with oh-my-zsh) doesn't work anymore. I already re-installed zsh, zsh-common and apt. Anybody else got that problem or a hint on how to solve it? |
| 20:03.56 | okraits | completion for apt works in bash. |
| 20:04.14 | atdq | somiaj: Thanks, don't quite understand what you mean in message 00:57. |
| 20:04.14 | atdq | With such images I expect default username:password to log-in or something like cloud-init to add user (SSH key). |
| 20:04.14 | atdq | Of course, I can mount image and make necessary changes, but it weird. |
| 20:04.14 | atdq | Thanks for channel, I will try ask there. |
| 20:04.21 | greycat | that's amusing. someone else in here the other day was complaining that bash-completion for apt doesn't work. |
| 20:05.13 | somiaj | atdq: what I see at ?57 was just a comment about the redirect, you can ignore. Or is it some other comment you don't understand? |
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| 20:05.37 | okraits | greycat: I don't find it amusing :-) Well, it's not a big issue because I don't use apt all day but it would be nice if it could be fixed |
| 20:06.26 | atdq | somiaj: yes, this comment |
| 20:07.19 | somiaj | atdq: we were just talking about cloud.debian.org, you can just ignore. We were just looking through that site to try to find docs on this. |
| 20:08.39 | atdq | somiaj: now it is clear, ok |
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| 20:13.37 | Xalys | What's everyone's opinion of the neccessity of chroot in a web hosting environment? Are there still notable vulnerabilities that can be exploited without chroot? |
| 20:14.11 | joze | no |
| 20:14.12 | somiaj | chroots provide no real additional protection |
| 20:14.24 | joze | no opinion |
| 20:14.27 | greycat | it's just another layer in your defenses. if someone exploits your tool, but it's chrooted, it somewhat limits the additional damage they can do. |
| 20:14.53 | greycat | I wouldn't place a great deal of emphasis on it, but if you can do it easily, it's probably not a bad idea. |
| 20:15.04 | somiaj | yea, I guess it depends on if their exploit is root escilation or not, if they can preform a root escialtion in the chroot, they can break out of it and get to your whole system. |
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| 20:15.32 | joze | if automated exploitationj is a thing it will happen in a botnet |
| 20:16.20 | Xalys | Yes, I am wondering how likely root escalation is with standard binaries and some tools like composer. |
| 20:16.31 | Xalys | I've loosely integrated chroot but it gets messy easily. |
| 20:16.37 | jhutchins_wk | Xalys: If you're just serving web pages it wouldn't really matter. If you're taking uploads you might consider it. |
| 20:16.44 | okraits | somiaj: Are you the guy from #fvwm? |
| 20:16.48 | Xalys | I don't know what customers do. |
| 20:16.56 | Xalys | For all I know they're running WordPress 4 |
| 20:16.59 | jhutchins_wk | I've worked with a few thousand web servers over the past few years and non of them used it. |
| 20:17.23 | jhutchins_wk | Xalys: Then let them worry about it. |
| 20:17.34 | Xalys | I'm currently running CageFS (commercial) which virtualizes a filesystem for each user with each binaries, but I'm wondering how neccessary it is. |
| 20:17.52 | Xalys | The main thing is that users shouldn't be able to affect each other, be it by a hack or by root privilege escalation. |
| 20:18.18 | Xalys | I'm not too sure how likely root privilege escalation is with a stock Debian 10 install (and Apache, MySQL and some additional binaries like wp-cli and composer) |
| 20:18.53 | somiaj | okraits: yes, I also in #fvwm (and the debian package matainer for fvwm) |
| 20:19.13 | ratrace | Xalys: non-trivial. you could take a look through this or last years CVEs, there's a number of local priv escalation bugs |
| 20:19.14 | somiaj | though there isn't much to matain, it is very stable and dosen't change that often. |
| 20:19.26 | okraits | somiaj: Ah, nice :-) |
| 20:19.40 | free_speech | !fvwm |
| 20:19.40 | dpkg | The F Virtual Window Manager (FVWM) is a fully ICCCM-compliant window manager. http://wiki.debian.org/Fvwm http://www.fvwm.org/ |
| 20:19.58 | Xalys | ratrace: fair. I feel like the added complexity of chroot doesn't weigh up to what could be an issue. |
| 20:20.05 | Xalys | I should note users have SSH access. |
| 20:20.13 | free_speech | ah okay, it's about window managers ... I see |
| 20:20.38 | greycat | !icccm |
| 20:20.49 | ratrace | Xalys: so what's your threat model, random user uploading random local-priv escalation exploit and executing it? |
| 20:21.02 | somiaj | debian sitll provides fvwm1 (And it works), kinda a testimate to the quality of its code to still compile and work on modern systems, since fvwm hasn't been around since about 1998 |
| 20:21.24 | somiaj | well fvwm1, fvwm2 (just called fvwm) is the main fvwm package, it gets mostly bug fixes these days |
| 20:21.45 | Xalys | ratrace: yes, possibly. Although I've not experienced it with the tens of boxes I maintain without chroot, I guess it's possible. |
| 20:21.48 | okraits | somiaj: Though I wish fvwm would support more modern stuff like RandR |
| 20:22.22 | somiaj | okraits: agreed, but for my use, it works just fine for multiple monintors, and using my laptop to add/remove external displays |
| 20:22.49 | jhutchins_wk | For local privilege escalation you have to have local privileges to begin with. If you're viewing a web page, you don't. |
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| 20:23.00 | Xalys | jhutchins_wk: users hae SSH access. |
| 20:23.24 | greycat | so you're no longer talking primarily about web hosting, then |
| 20:23.25 | ratrace | Xalys: a number of mitigation techniques exist |
| 20:23.40 | Xalys | cyberfusion@http-tst02.cf.ha.cyberfusion.cloud's password: |
| 20:23.44 | Xalys | oops |
| 20:24.01 | ratrace | no no, type it. we'll all look away. right folks? |
| 20:24.03 | Xalys | greycat: well, a web hosting platform where users have SSH access :-) |
| 20:24.20 | ratrace | Xalys: SSH or SFTP? |
| 20:24.23 | Xalys | Well, I currently broke that SSH box with chroot experiments, so it won't be of too much use to you. |
| 20:24.26 | Xalys | ratrace: both. |
| 20:24.32 | ratrace | do they really need ssh? |
| 20:24.34 | Xalys | Yes. |
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| 20:24.46 | ratrace | for what purpose? |
| 20:24.47 | Xalys | Customers use stuff like wp-cli and composer. |
| 20:25.02 | okraits | somiaj: Are you using Xinerama or the Xinerama simulation with RandR? |
| 20:25.15 | free_speech | !xinerama |
| 20:25.16 | dpkg | i guess xinerama is where you have several monitors but only one logical desktop -- XFree86 4.0 and X.org have it. http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Xinerama-HOWTO/ . This functionality is provided by RandR in recent Xorg drivers, ask me about <randr>. |
| 20:25.29 | somiaj | okraits: second, I just scripts with xrandr to add/remove displays, then restart fvwm to adapt to the new monintor layout |
| 20:25.30 | ratrace | Xalys: and all that inside one big namespace aka "shared hosting"? |
| 20:25.37 | Xalys | yep |
| 20:25.39 | somiaj | s/just/use/ |
| 20:25.45 | ratrace | Xalys: good luck with that. if you aren't pwned yet, it means you're just very very lucky |
| 20:26.02 | Xalys | As I said, I'm currently using CageFS, which is a chroot alternative. |
| 20:26.25 | somiaj | okraits: there are a few quirks due to screens being different sizes, and Xinmeria wanting to treat everything as one large screen (for pages), but I am able to work with it, just had to get use to the quirks. |
| 20:26.32 | ratrace | which is false sense of security. one kernel vuln and poof entire box is pwnd |
| 20:26.41 | ratrace | and tehre's no shortage of those, yearly, lol :) |
| 20:26.44 | jhutchins_wk | Xalys: I suppose in that case it might be worth looking into ssh chroot. |
| 20:26.45 | Xalys | How is it? |
| 20:26.57 | Xalys | How is a user supposed to break out of a virtualized filesystem? |
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| 20:27.26 | ratrace | Xalys: by exploiting a kernel vuln and executing random code under kernel privileges, completely sidestepping any namespaceing cagefs does |
| 20:27.41 | greycat | giving them ssh access and then trying to lock them in chroots is just *asking* them to try to find local exploits to escape. why even bother. |
| 20:27.42 | okraits | somiaj: I see |
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| 20:28.06 | Xalys | Yes, but there is no situation in which is it 100% safe. Which is why ptrace, ptraceself, symlinks etc. etc. are disabled |
| 20:28.16 | Xalys | greycat: because customers are technical enough to need SSH access. |
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| 20:28.38 | greycat | you get exactly the same level of protection just using permissions correctly. they need to escalate to root to see another user's stuff. same thing they would need to escape the chroot. |
| 20:28.54 | ratrace | then give them VMs. while not 100% safe, it's order of magnitudes safer than running everything under the same kernel |
| 20:29.07 | Xalys | greycat: true. |
| 20:29.22 | ratrace | *orders of ... |
| 20:30.08 | Xalys | ratrace: I'm not sure how familiar you are with cagefs. It runs under a custom openvz-based kernel with privilege escalation patches built-in. It doesn't make sense to run stuff in a VM looking at the protection their kernel offers. |
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| 20:30.18 | Xalys | The issue to me is that it's made by a company. |
| 20:30.47 | ratrace | Xalys: it's all the same kernel. openvz is just a form of namespacing. it's still all one kernel. |
| 20:31.05 | ratrace | you need ONE (1) kernel vuln that allows arbitrary code exec under kernel privilege, and you're done. |
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| 20:31.16 | ratrace | (one vuln and of course a threat actor trying to xploit it) |
| 20:31.58 | Xalys | I feel like the only mitigation to that is not putting everything on one box. |
| 20:32.16 | ratrace | people really need to learn that containers are really just namespaces, not some invisible impenetrable walls. even solaris zones and freebsd jails are much much better isolation than namespacing on linux. |
| 20:32.42 | ratrace | Xalys: technically, you could lock them down tightly with selinux or some similar RBAC tool. even grsec is fine if you're willing to pay up. |
| 20:33.11 | Xalys | grsec patches suck imo |
| 20:34.33 | ratrace | possibru :) |
| 20:36.10 | Xalys | hmm |
| 20:36.21 | Xalys | I think the real solution is to just put our containers in the blockchain. |
| 20:36.36 | Xalys | Did I use all the buzzwords correctly? |
| 20:36.40 | ratrace | yup. |
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| 20:37.13 | greycat | needs more enterprise |
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| 20:37.23 | ratrace | you need the synargistic approach to client big data usability converges via extensible implementation of containers and emerging blockchain technologies. |
| 20:37.39 | SerajewelKS | jhutchins_wk: re: trying to disable lvm/md probing on an iscsi target: the system doesn't even have lvm or mdadm installed. so that was easy. i just have to do nothing. |
| 20:37.45 | Xalys | Don't forget it needs to be in the highly-available enterprise cloud. |
| 20:37.55 | ratrace | conditio sine qua non. |
| 20:38.20 | ratrace | cloud is so 2018. it's all serverless now. |
| 20:38.55 | ratrace | and 2020? serverless is out and edge computing is in! |
| 20:39.10 | ksk | chrchr. |
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| 20:39.25 | Xalys | :) |
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| 20:39.52 | Xalys | Thanks ratrace. I'm satisfied with CageFS so far (been using it for 3 years) but I hope you understand it's quite scary to be dependent on a compan.y |
| 20:40.26 | ksk | Xalys: is that mainline? lxc offers some isolation nowadays, like a chroot on steroids so to say. |
| 20:41.07 | ratrace | Xalys: isnt' there an open sourcey solution... whatwasitsname...... lemme think |
| 20:41.20 | Xalys | ksk: it's not really. CloudLinux (CageFS creators) took an OpenVZ kernel and redeveloped it to include kernel-level resource limiting (cgroups) and stuff like that. They've had some license issues a few years ago too. |
| 20:41.28 | ratrace | Xalys: cpanel implements it.... ooof... cloudlinux! |
| 20:41.53 | Xalys | ratrace: well, that's what I'm using now, and it's very not open source :) |
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| 20:42.14 | ratrace | ah I see |
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| 20:42.18 | Xalys | (I'm not using cPanel, that would be an insult to hosting :) ) |
| 20:42.40 | ratrace | isn't cPanel like the norm in shared hosting? |
| 20:42.43 | ksk | eh. If you want to use "something else than unix permissions" Id go for lxc (containers or soervices) |
| 20:42.54 | SerajewelKS | lxc or docker can work |
| 20:43.02 | Xalys | Yes, it is. Because most people in shared hosting don't know what they're doing. |
| 20:43.11 | ratrace | I personally go for AppArmor. better control. AppArmor + systemd service isolation options |
| 20:43.16 | ksk | or use systemd unit files, and put them into cgroups and namespaces. |
| 20:43.28 | Xalys | Hmm. I've not used AppArmor before. |
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| 20:43.49 | Xalys | I've configured systemd user slices to limit memory and CPU per user, which works great (that is one feature CloudLinux provides replaced already) |
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| 20:44.57 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: for separation of wordpress sites we give each client an apache+php docker container and a mysql container |
| 20:45.28 | ratrace | we do managed hosting. users need SFTP, but not SSH. no random code upload + exec. way, way easier to secure than full shared hosting with random upload + exec. |
| 20:45.39 | ratrace | if I had to do that, I'd do it with proper VMs, not even containers. |
| 20:45.40 | ksk | SerajewelKS: is there a reason for docker over lxc in that usecase? :P (docker bad..) |
| 20:45.50 | ratrace | docker bad. |
| 20:46.25 | Xalys | ratrace: fair enough. It depends on the segment I guess. |
| 20:46.40 | Xalys | I've used LXC in the past and only had bad experiences, but maybe t's gotten better now. |
| 20:47.18 | Xalys | ksk: Docker is a no-go until they stop supporting legacy internet protocols (IPv4) |
| 20:47.22 | SerajewelKS | i've read dozens of articles on docker vs lxc so i tried both and picked the one that was easier to get working correctly, especially since after setting all of this up i'm handing it off to others |
| 20:47.36 | SerajewelKS | but i don't begrudge others their choice |
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| 20:48.41 | ratrace | I'm not using popular container tech because they're just hype. systemd service isolation suffices, coupled with AppArmor. and if I really needed filesystem namespacing, I use chroots. works with systemd services just fine. and for full isolation, VMs. |
| 20:49.14 | Xalys | I haven't looked innto AppArmor or systmed namespacing yet. |
| 20:49.29 | Xalys | Afaik AppArmor does stuff with profiles to limit filesystem access, right? What is the difference between that and chroot? |
| 20:49.51 | SerajewelKS | chroot does not limit filesystem access if the attacker can gain root |
| 20:50.04 | SerajewelKS | AIUI, containers and cgroups can |
| 20:50.06 | trek00 | Xalys: with apparmour you could even block access to files inside a chroot |
| 20:50.33 | Xalys | trek00: why would I put files in a chroot if I'm going to block them? :) |
| 20:50.38 | ratrace | Xalys: chroot is a wall. AppArmor is a mandatory access control on read-write-execute relationship between subject (execution point of entry) and object (file, directory, dbus, ...) |
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| 20:50.58 | trek00 | Xalys: it depend how bad is the situation you need to fix :) |
| 20:51.20 | Xalys | :) |
| 20:51.22 | SerajewelKS | repeat after me: chroot is not a security mechanism |
| 20:51.27 | ratrace | AppArmor is a patrol car that drives inside the wall, stops random people and yells PAPERS! Shoots you down with extreme prejudice if you have invalid PAPERS! |
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| 20:51.47 | Xalys | Like this? https://twitter.com/virginmedia/status/1162756227132198914 |
| 20:51.57 | SerajewelKS | hell, the chroot manpage includes an example of how to break out of a chroot |
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| 20:52.37 | Xalys | Hmm |
| 20:52.45 | Xalys | I'm wondering what is the better alternative to a chroot then |
| 20:52.56 | SerajewelKS | all of the things we've suggested :P |
| 20:52.57 | ratrace | Xalys: hah, no. that tweet is more analogous to "Imma using containers THUS imma secure". which is wrong. because what SerajewelKS said. |
| 20:52.59 | greycat | Correct file system permissions. |
| 20:53.15 | Xalys | Well, that's one thig I've got. |
| 20:53.18 | Xalys | s/thig/thing |
| 20:53.26 | greycat | Then attempting to chroot your shell users is pointless. |
| 20:53.36 | Xalys | Fair. |
| 20:53.40 | ratrace | I disagree |
| 20:53.54 | ratrace | chroot them to their ~/. they have no business walking around the system |
| 20:53.59 | SerajewelKS | ratrace: i thought that containers had a different mechanism for restricting access, not chroot |
| 20:54.17 | greycat | yeah, they don't need to run ls or cp or rm or mkdir, stupid users, just let them log in and do nothing. |
| 20:54.20 | greycat | serves 'em right. |
| 20:54.23 | ratrace | SerajewelKS: "containers" is just a fancy name for a collection of namespaces. chroot is a fs namespace. |
| 20:54.40 | Xalys | greycat: as long as 'sl' is available. |
| 20:54.56 | ratrace | greycat: well for starters they can inspect /etc/passwd. sure, no hashes there, but why should they be able to read the list of system users? |
| 20:55.28 | ratrace | it's shared hosting, where system user usually corresponds to their site or business name. /etc/passwd availability is infoleak type of vuln |
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| 20:55.38 | greycat | so to prevent them from knowing the names of other users, you are going to install an entire mini-Debian for every. single. fucking. users. |
| 20:55.47 | greycat | how is this efficient? |
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| 20:56.05 | ratrace | greycat: not necessarily, there's SFTP chroots |
| 20:56.18 | greycat | We already established that the OP is *not* doing SFTP-only. |
| 20:56.26 | greycat | They are giving actual shell access. |
| 20:56.51 | SerajewelKS | ratrace: right, i just thought the mechanism that containers on linux used for namespacing the filesystem was something other than chroot |
| 20:57.25 | ratrace | SerajewelKS: no, they literally use chroot for fs namespace. there's also network, user namespace, pid namespace |
| 20:57.31 | SerajewelKS | ratrace: e.g. docker uses mnt namespacing. |
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| 20:58.21 | SerajewelKS | obviously yes they chroot to the new root but mnt namespacing should (in the absence of a mnt-namespacing or other vulnerability) prevent escape via the same mechanism you'd use to escape chroot, no? |
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| 20:59.02 | ratrace | SerajewelKS: yes, but that's just one of the possible exploit vectors. the problem with containers is that it's all the single linux kernel |
| 20:59.41 | SerajewelKS | right. not claiming that escape is impossible. rather it's not as simple as chroot. i mean there have even been escape vulnerabilities in kvm. |
| 20:59.53 | ratrace | that kernel is the SPOF. one vuln of "run arbitrary code under kernel privilege" and ability to exploit it (eg by running random code you upload), and everything crumbles like a house of cards |
| 20:59.54 | SerajewelKS | separate kernels isn't a guarantee either |
| 20:59.57 | trek00 | if i can load e kernel module... :) |
| 21:00.22 | ratrace | SerajewelKS: no, no guarantee, it's never 100%. but orders of magnitude better than one shared kernel |
| 21:00.33 | SerajewelKS | yeah. i don't think we're disagreeing then. |
| 21:00.49 | ratrace | I don't think so either :) |
| 21:01.42 | Xalys | So.. Has anyone successfully implemented one separate LXC instance per website? |
| 21:01.55 | SerajewelKS | it's all a cost-benefit problem. for us, containers give us reasonable security without needing a VM per customer. compromise may well be possible. |
| 21:02.04 | Xalys | LXC is one kernel too isn't it? |
| 21:02.29 | ratrace | greycat: I was referring to inadequacy of "Correct file system permissions" and "Then attempting to chroot your shell users is pointless". it's not pointless. sure there's overhead that you mentioned (mini-debian inside a dir) but it's not pointless. |
| 21:02.40 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: docker uses LXC, AIUI. so yes. because we are. :) |
| 21:02.50 | ratrace | besides, unix permission model, aka. DAC, should die. MAC should be the default. |
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| 21:03.17 | ratrace | maybe some future capabilities based OS running on capabilities based hardware, will then default to MAC and not DAC |
| 21:03.24 | greycat | !dac |
| 21:03.24 | dpkg | dac is, like, digital/analogue converter |
| 21:03.27 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: each site has a separate apache httpd and mysqld |
| 21:03.28 | greycat | ...? |
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| 21:03.40 | ratrace | Discreete Access Control, aka. users and groups |
| 21:03.41 | trek00 | greycat: discretionary access control |
| 21:03.48 | ratrace | vs. Mandatory Access Control |
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| 21:04.08 | ratrace | subjects, objects and relations between them. mmmmmh. <3 |
| 21:04.36 | trek00 | anyway if module loading is not prevented, escaping dac or mac is the same if root is gained |
| 21:04.40 | Xalys | Maybe I should just switch to Windows! It's so much easier! |
| 21:04.44 | greycat | Well. I'll just say, then, that Unix was never built as a system where the users hide from each other. It was built for universities and tight-knit corporate groups. If your users are not supposed to know about each other, don't put them all on the same host. |
| 21:04.53 | swivel | i use nspawn containers per vhost, with a single nginx container listening publicly and proxying everything to each vhost's container |
| 21:05.04 | ratrace | Xalys: does one FreeBSD jail per website count? then yes :) |
| 21:05.38 | ratrace | greycat: true, but then when you get to define "host" you get: containers, VMs, isolation running on the same CPU die :) |
| 21:06.04 | trek00 | Xalys: i don't know what was your original question, but if you asked the perfect model, there isn't one :) |
| 21:06.27 | Xalys | ratrace: I've been looking at BSD jails a few months ago. It looks really interesting, but I've heard ports for Mysql aren't very good. But maybe that's better now. |
| 21:06.29 | greycat | The original question shifted pretty quickly to a different question anyway. |
| 21:06.36 | ratrace | clearly there is! serverless! :) kubernetes! blockchain! |
| 21:06.58 | Xalys | trek00: I have worked in this field for too long to dare ask for the perfect model :) The main goal is to find an open source, non-commercial altenrative to CageFS. |
| 21:07.07 | trek00 | Xalys: you need to evaluate the trade-offs of every security measure compared to the budget and type of attacks |
| 21:07.32 | ratrace | Xalys: I'd never go back now :) it's been years. Jails are nice but totally lack tooling and there's many other problems with FreeBSD irrelevant for this convo, but these days, you won't get any benefit by migrating to bsd. |
| 21:08.09 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: lots of container-based systems are open source. docker community edition, systemd-nspawn, podman... |
| 21:08.11 | ratrace | (unless you count licensing politics) |
| 21:08.18 | Xalys | ratrace: hmm. I've got all my zfs stuff running on BSD and OpenIndiana but now that DKMS isn't as tightly required in Buster repos I'm going to switch that ot Linux too.. |
| 21:08.50 | ratrace | Xalys: what do you mean isn't? zfs-dkms is currently the only way on Debian, unless you build and package it yourself |
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| 21:09.00 | Xalys | SerajewelKS: that's true. I should say I haven't looked at systemd-nspawn |
| 21:09.04 | Xalys | I'll take a look now |
| 21:09.21 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: there's also qemu-system with kvm if you want to go the full virtualization route |
| 21:09.51 | ratrace | Xalys: btw, we use root on ZFS on LUKS on almost all our Debian servers :) |
| 21:10.14 | Xalys | SerajewelKS: there would be too much overhead. I have a Proxmox cluster ready to serve LXC and KVM but I feel like LXC would be muuuuuuuch more resource-efficient |
| 21:10.19 | trek00 | Xalys: reading the website, it seems to me you could emulate all the cagefs security measures with an apparmour profile |
| 21:10.37 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: one of the most important and often-overlooked security mechanisms is taking regular, automated backups that get stored somewhere that an attacker cannot possibly get to without physical access |
| 21:10.59 | Xalys | trek00: hmm. That's interesting. I'll take a look at AppArmor too |
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| 21:12.02 | ratrace | not unless you run one ssh instance per use account which is a huge PITA |
| 21:12.04 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: our clients are generally tolerant of a little bit of downtime as long as we don't lose all their shit |
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| 21:12.28 | Xalys | SerajewelKS: That sounds quite imporatnt too :) |
| 21:13.03 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: that's why we're going with docker and not full VMs. they're not as secure but still pretty damn secure. and with backups the trade-off is worth it. |
| 21:13.11 | SerajewelKS | we can run more sites per host and management is much easier |
| 21:13.16 | ratrace | Xalys: AppArmor is nice but unless you complicate matters with ssh instances, or simply chroot/containerize them, it's useless for this case. SELinux would be way better as you can label users and won't need separate ssh instances |
| 21:13.27 | Xalys | Hmm, ok |
| 21:13.27 | ratrace | You'd need MLS though |
| 21:13.35 | Xalys | systemd-nspawn also looks quite interesting reading the doc |
| 21:13.55 | Xalys | "it fully virtualizes the file system hierarchy, as well as the process tree, the various IPC subsystems" is basically what Cagefs does |
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| 21:14.33 | ratrace | "virtualizes" uhmmmmmmm yeah, no. I hate it when random sales brochures misuse that word. |
| 21:14.48 | Xalys | Are the systemd docs a sales brochure? |
| 21:14.51 | Xalys | Or are you referring to cagefs? |
| 21:14.59 | ratrace | calling spade a spade, it's literally namespacing. virtualization implies hardware virtualization and a whole deeper level of isolation. |
| 21:15.02 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: docker has the advantage that it generally "just works" and has significant mindshare already, so generally if you run into problems it's not too hard to find someone who has solved it before. but obviously not everyone likes it, and there's trade-offs. |
| 21:15.42 | ratrace | Xalys: whoever labels namespacing as virtualization :) |
| 21:15.51 | Xalys | I have to say I'm not a big fan of Docker :( |
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| 21:16.18 | Xalys | Well, the docs say it's more powerful than chroot, so it MUST be true :) |
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| 21:16.40 | ratrace | well sure, does more than just fs namespace that chroot does. |
| 21:17.09 | ratrace | nspawn cuts out a namespace in fs, pids, network and uids, so your uid=0 is secretly uid=1232014230 on the kernel |
| 21:17.19 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: not trying to convince you to use it or anything, just sharing what i know |
| 21:17.23 | ratrace | which btw... tends to be a source of serious vulns as not all parts of the kernel might be aware of the mapping. |
| 21:17.29 | Xalys | So as far as I can see you run debootstrap for each user and launch the 'container' with systemd-nspawn --dir=somewhere |
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| 21:18.05 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: you might consider using an overlay filesystem so that each user doesn't need a full copy of the root "image" |
| 21:18.13 | ratrace | Xalys: even better, run ZFS and then clone already once-debootstrapped and prepared home dataset :) |
| 21:18.40 | Xalys | Don't remind me of that time a user filled up his docker overlay fs and it was beyond repair |
| 21:18.58 | Xalys | If only they would pay for monitoring :) |
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| 21:19.35 | SerajewelKS | i mean any time you run out of disk space, weird shit is probably going to start happening |
| 21:19.43 | SerajewelKS | database servers in the middle of writes don't take too kindly to that either |
| 21:19.57 | Xalys | ratrace: yes, a premade dataset sounds like a good idea.. I'm not too sure if ZFS would be worth the resource usage as I'd be running it on top of an RBD image by Ceph already |
| 21:20.26 | ratrace | what resource usage |
| 21:20.42 | ratrace | waits Xalys to say "herp derp RAM" with an oversized trout, ready to strike |
| 21:21.04 | Xalys | Are you saying ZFS doesn't like to eat my RAM? :) |
| 21:21.08 | ratrace | *SLAP* |
| 21:21.22 | ratrace | it does if you give it ;) |
| 21:21.23 | SerajewelKS | something something something btrfs |
| 21:21.37 | Xalys | Um |
| 21:21.43 | Xalys | btrfs unstable reeeee? Or has that changed? |
| 21:21.50 | SerajewelKS | i was joking :P |
| 21:21.53 | ratrace | I'd use btrfs if I could get it to mount consistently ten times in a row lol :) |
| 21:21.58 | Xalys | Ok, so btrfs unstable reeeee :) |
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| 21:22.45 | Xalys | I'm configuring systemd-nspawn on my test box. I'm curious to see how it works |
| 21:23.15 | ratrace | not unlike LXC, with the added benefit of it being a systemd tool that simply reusees all the cgroup thingies systemd already does |
| 21:23.41 | ratrace | so, lighter, more native on systemd... systems... than LXC or crocker. uh... sorry, docker. |
| 21:24.19 | Xalys | The first thing I'm curious about is why one of systemd-container's depends is btrfs-progs |
| 21:24.49 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: it's a recommends not a depends |
| 21:25.18 | Xalys | Doesn't apt say "This package recommends installing xxx" or something when it's a recommends |
| 21:25.26 | Xalys | Here it just says: |
| 21:25.27 | Xalys | The following NEW packages will be installed: |
| 21:25.28 | Xalys | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:25.34 | SerajewelKS | no |
| 21:25.41 | SerajewelKS | apt-get install --no-install-recommends |
| 21:25.45 | SerajewelKS | you're thinking of suggests |
| 21:25.51 | Xalys | Oh, you're right |
| 21:26.24 | ratrace | I guess it can utilize btrfs to subvol-off containers. |
| 21:26.53 | ratrace | systemd people will often support btrfs with new features of theirs, that can utilize a filesystem like btrfs |
| 21:27.08 | ratrace | %s/people/devs/ |
| 21:28.07 | SerajewelKS | makes sense that one layering violation would support another |
| 21:28.47 | trek00 | :) |
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| 21:29.27 | ratrace | sometimes you have to break through layering dogma to achieve a better system :) |
| 21:29.59 | Xalys | lol |
| 21:30.18 | Xalys | debootstrap decided Debian 8 is a good default |
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| 21:31.55 | trek00 | Xalys: i think the debian release version is a mandatory argument |
| 21:32.26 | Xalys | s/debootstrap decided Debian 8 is a good default/I'm tired and overlooked the example in the docs |
| 21:32.34 | trek00 | :) |
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| 21:42.43 | Xalys | I'm going to call it a night and experiment more tomorrow. Thx trek00 SerajewelKS ratrace ! |
| 21:42.50 | SerajewelKS | Xalys: np, good luck |
| 21:43.00 | trek00 | good night :) |
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| 21:57.10 | aquax | hey, is it possible to run debian in virtualbox on 3440x1440 pixel |
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| 22:02.30 | ratrace | should be possible |
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| 22:03.05 | SerajewelKS | they already left |
| 22:03.07 | ratrace | noticed too late, already hit enter :) |
| 22:03.10 | SerajewelKS | i was gonna say the same thing |
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| 22:21.02 | sthiss0123 | Unsure who to target, but debian testing is amazing - thank you kindly to all involved |
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| 22:25.09 | gnufr33d0m | testing out posting from emacs, can you hear me now? |
| 22:25.45 | trek00 | sthiss0123: i'm sure all developers appreciate this :) |
| 22:25.53 | trek00 | gnufr33d0m: i can read you |
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| 22:26.15 | gnufr33d0m | <trek00> Thanks! |
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| 22:29.24 | gnufr33d0m | trek00: Thanks |
| 22:30.33 | trek00 | :) |
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| 23:52.25 | truexfan81 | in the future on the installer can we please make a seperate option for libre office instead of bundling it with the DE? thanks |
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