| 00:00.02 | nvz | xxx: going to give you a command to check in see if you selected and modules at compile time |
| 00:00.05 | green-ears | [ucp]deadline: by useing apt-get to install with, instaed of tacksel, you can get a lighter install |
| 00:00.23 | cafuego | Gokee214: So either you haven't tried it or you don't actually want what you're saying you want. |
| 00:00.25 | ac1d | greycat, is sarge netinst by default? |
| 00:00.34 | fearl | green-ears: don't ya love stating the obvious 8) |
| 00:00.36 | greycat | ac1d: /msg dpkg d-i |
| 00:00.51 | *** part/#debian looksaus (~mark@kn-upc-1.kuleuven.net) |
| 00:00.58 | nvz | xxx: grep -c =m /boot/config-2.4.22 |
| 00:01.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 663] by debhelper |
| 00:01.04 | Gokee214 | cafuego, I looked at the man and it said it was to conect to another server |
| 00:01.05 | fearl | s/ya/you ... ooops |
| 00:01.10 | xxx | Need to run as root? |
| 00:01.13 | VapourBoy | do apps like quake, quake2 support alsa sound? |
| 00:01.17 | *** join/#debian PieceOfPizza (~bopbdsb@pool-151-196-38-107.balt.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:01.38 | green-ears | [ucp]deadline: all so i would go for apt-get install kde-core |
| 00:01.39 | PieceOfPizza | does anyone have a cd image for unstable with the new installer? |
| 00:01.44 | xxx | I get 1 as user |
| 00:01.45 | nvz | xxx: shouldnt have to, you will only need read access to /boot |
| 00:01.46 | fearl | VapourBoy: such things usually use ESD etc, which does support ALSA... |
| 00:01.47 | Zta | Anyone here using the airo driver that comes with the linux 2.6.7 kernel? I have trouble configuring my wlan interface (eth1). I used another driver when using the 2.4.x kernel, but I wanted to try this one out. My ordinary configuration in /etc/network/interfaces doesn't seem to work properly for the wireless interface, so I started trying out to set the parameters manually using: iwconfig eth0 <option> <value>. But it appears that my w |
| 00:01.50 | cafuego | Gokee214: And who says that server can't be localhost? |
| 00:02.01 | Zta | So.. anyone who can help? |
| 00:02.08 | nvz | xxx: that means only one thing was compiled as a module, remove the -c from the command and it will tell you what was moduled |
| 00:02.10 | TimFreeman | msg dpkg linux dos attack |
| 00:02.14 | Gokee214 | And... |
| 00:02.26 | nvz | xxx: you apperently compiled everything directly into the kernel and not as modules |
| 00:02.36 | VapourBoy | well, I'm running enlightenment with esd sound server, sound works but not for quake or quake2 |
| 00:02.39 | Gokee214 | You could make it full screen? |
| 00:02.46 | xxx | I did. I need to recompile for sound? |
| 00:02.53 | green-ears | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:03.14 | nvz | xxx: if your sound isnt working, then I would say yes, you need to recompile |
| 00:03.21 | xxx | damn |
| 00:03.22 | cafuego | Gokee214: install it, check. |
| 00:03.24 | *** join/#debian detlef (detlef@ppp-0-38.lond-b-4.access.uk.tiscali.com) |
| 00:03.33 | Gokee214 | I have in |
| 00:03.41 | nvz | xxx: If I were you I would closely examine the kernel logs and the pci bus before doing this several more times |
| 00:03.45 | McKurky | cafuego: found a line in /var/log/XFree86.0.log allocating 8MB via AGP... |
| 00:03.46 | nvz | xxx: ... cluelessly |
| 00:03.50 | cafuego | Gokee214: When it runs, you may notice a 'Full Screen' button |
| 00:03.54 | fearl | VapourBoy: quake2 depends libasound, so it does use ALSA... |
| 00:04.16 | nvz | xxx: and while you are at it, why not just grab the newer source.. 2.4.26 is latest in that tree I believe |
| 00:04.19 | cafuego | McKurky: *nod* So that probably accounts for the blips in the video when you're using 40Mb |
| 00:04.27 | VapourBoy | well, quake2 freezes on startup unless I disable sound |
| 00:04.50 | McKurky | cafuego: er, right, when I tell it 40mb, it allocates more memory for textures... |
| 00:05.04 | McKurky | cafuego: but that memory doesn't exist, so it's all hairy and corrupted-looking |
| 00:05.11 | xxx | Do I have to run lilo again if I recompile? |
| 00:05.13 | fearl | VapourBoy: shitty :/ |
| 00:05.16 | greycat | xxx: yes |
| 00:05.20 | cafuego | McKurky: *nod* But that runs at a different speed from the vram, so there may be buggy behaviour. |
| 00:05.22 | VapourBoy | yeah, shitty |
| 00:05.26 | *** join/#debian root (root@p50837CBA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 00:05.34 | Gokee214 | vncviewer: ConnectToTcpAddr: connect: Connection refused |
| 00:05.34 | *** join/#debian dan2 (~beta3@beta3.registered) |
| 00:05.34 | Gokee214 | Unable to connect to VNC server |
| 00:05.40 | xxx | I dont understand that one. WHy cant I just copy the new kernel in the old kernel spot. |
| 00:05.40 | McKurky | cafuego: but when I tell it I have 40mb, it doesn't allocate more agp memory. |
| 00:05.42 | *** join/#debian Gokee212 (~Gokee2@4.242.9.133) |
| 00:05.54 | greycat | xxx: because it doesn't go in the same precise spot on the disk. |
| 00:05.55 | cafuego | McKurky: Oh sorry, I thought it grabbed 8Mb when you told it you had 40. |
| 00:05.56 | McKurky | cafuego: it allocates 8mb vi AGP no matter what. |
| 00:06.05 | VapourBoy | when I load quake2 it freezes at loading oss sound output driver, ok |
| 00:06.10 | xxx | Running lilo makes me nervous |
| 00:06.16 | greycat | xxx: when you rerun lilo, it updates the boot record to point to the new kernel's starting sector |
| 00:06.17 | McKurky | cafuego: anywho, I appreciate you listening and offering advice. |
| 00:06.17 | Brutus | xxx, why? :| |
| 00:06.31 | fearl | VapourBoy: hmm... turn on oss-emulation for alsa... |
| 00:06.37 | xxx | I dont want to lose the hard drive |
| 00:06.38 | cafuego | McKurky: Trade it in for my Radeon U1. |
| 00:06.39 | steelhoof | abrotman! |
| 00:06.41 | steelhoof | where is the boy when needed |
| 00:06.44 | VapourBoy | how do I do that, load a module? |
| 00:06.49 | greycat | VapourBoy: modconf |
| 00:06.52 | cafuego | McKurky-AFK: What has no on-board ram at all (but then again, doesn't do 3D) |
| 00:06.55 | fearl | VapourBoy: alsaconf |
| 00:06.56 | McKurky-AFK | cafuego: if I could tear it out of the T40 it's in, then maybe. :) |
| 00:07.02 | *** join/#debian M-nol (~raph@rberbain.net1.nerim.net) |
| 00:07.02 | nvz | xxx: not to mention the kernel size may be different, lets just say for example your kernel is 1unit of size, and you compile one that is 2units, and lilo only loads half of it |
| 00:07.06 | *** join/#debian walnuck (~walnuts@modemcable192.198-203-24.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 00:07.06 | fearl | VapourBoy: or what greycat said |
| 00:07.08 | McKurky-AFK | cafuego: yeah, I had the P5010 before this.. |
| 00:07.09 | remedy | if i make an iptables rule but dont specify an interface, will it make the rule applicable to all interfaces or the first interface when i run iptables |
| 00:07.11 | walnuck | arrggh |
| 00:07.14 | greycat | nvz: *blink* |
| 00:07.15 | McKurky-AFK | cafuego: shared memory sucks bottom. |
| 00:07.18 | McKurky-AFK | cafuego: laters... |
| 00:07.24 | greycat | nvz: I think that example is a bit nonsensical. |
| 00:07.26 | VapourBoy | k, give me a few |
| 00:07.31 | remedy | all eth0:x interfaces |
| 00:07.58 | nvz | greycat: probably I have been outside in the rain not really paying attention |
| 00:08.00 | xxx | How safe is lilo??? |
| 00:08.05 | Gokee214 | --> Gokee212 (~Gokee2@4.242.9.133) has joined #debian where the hell did he come from? |
| 00:08.07 | walnuck | Blissex: i assume you have experience with dvd burning?, i just nuked one :( (basically i did use cat to an image and used k3b to burn it, k3b then verified and found the written data differs) |
| 00:08.16 | nvz | xxx: you need some help heh |
| 00:08.18 | VapourBoy | fearl: which module is it? |
| 00:08.24 | hackeron | anyone knows some program to allow me to convert quality difference of 2 videos? (source video and encoded video) |
| 00:08.28 | greycat | xxx: nothing is safe. |
| 00:08.30 | xxx | I have run lilo hundreds of times |
| 00:08.44 | walnuck | xxx: safer than stds |
| 00:08.44 | fearl | VapourBoy: I don't use modconf, I said that... apt-get install alsaconf, or ask greycat |
| 00:08.45 | xxx | But Now I have this computer set up so I dont want to have to change things |
| 00:08.46 | TimFreeman | xxx: The safety of lilo is exactly 3.6. |
| 00:08.56 | Blissex | walnuck: use k3b to do the copy id data, else use a nice DVD video image ripper. |
| 00:09.08 | greycat | TimFreeman: 42 |
| 00:09.13 | walnuck | Blissex: what's a good DVD video image ripper? |
| 00:09.13 | xxx | If I run lilo and suddenly I lose my other partitions it would be not good. |
| 00:09.23 | greycat | walnuck: video-dvdrip. marillat. |
| 00:09.24 | VapourBoy | greycat, do you happen to which module to load for oss sound compatibility |
| 00:09.24 | VapourBoy | ? |
| 00:09.30 | greycat | VapourBoy: nope |
| 00:09.38 | VapourBoy | shitty |
| 00:09.41 | walnuck | xxx: just follow the manual, tell the cmd u use |
| 00:09.43 | VapourBoy | reasearch |
| 00:09.43 | greycat | xxx: lilo doesn't touch the partition table. |
| 00:09.45 | fearl | VapourBoy: like I said, use alsaconf ffs |
| 00:09.50 | nvz | xxx: you should always have a valid stanza in lilo, I normally keep one rescue kernel like 2.4bf or 2.2.20-idepci or whatever in there all the time, along with one solid kernel, and the one I am testing.. so if your kernel doent boot you have others.. as for lilo, if there is an error, dont reboot until you fix it.. lilo will tell you if there are problems, and last, keep a damn rescue disk, installing lilo from a chroot is simple |
| 00:10.11 | *** join/#debian Oryn (oryn@atraue.fsck.tv) |
| 00:10.18 | xxx | Will it mess with Windows? |
| 00:10.24 | *** join/#debian Leo (~leo@168-226-9-165.speedy.com.ar) |
| 00:10.32 | greycat | xxx: only if you broke it. |
| 00:10.42 | walnuck | xxx: probably the only danger is if you install lilo on the partition boot block rather than the drive boot block |
| 00:10.47 | xxx | I am not worried about Linux back. But if Lilos screws up windows |
| 00:10.51 | nvz | xxx: as for windows, most you need is a windows boot disk, boot with it, type fdisk /mbr, lilo is gone, windows is back to normal |
| 00:10.57 | TimFreeman | xxx: You'll probably want a stanza in there that gives the alternative of booting with windows. |
| 00:10.58 | fearl | xxx: I think you need to read about what exactly a bootloader is... |
| 00:11.00 | walnuck | xxx: but even that is recoverable |
| 00:11.07 | remedy | if i make an iptables rule but dont specify an interface, will it make the rule applicable to all interfaces or the first interface when i run iptables.. |
| 00:11.11 | nvz | xxx: moral of this story KEEP A BOOT DISK FOR EVERY OS |
| 00:11.16 | greycat | !unix lessons |
| 00:11.16 | dpkg | from memory, unix lessons is (1) Don't change the permissions, (2) back up your data, (3) keep it simple, stupid, (4) read the fscking manual, (5) don't fsck with package management, (6) don't type anything you don't understand, (7) always have a boot floppy or CD, (8) read your log files, (9) the FIRST error is the one that counts, (10) don't leave your root shell until you TEST your changes, (11) don't be root when you don't have to be |
| 00:11.38 | walnuck | thx greycat and blissex |
| 00:11.50 | fearl | nvz: failing that, become familier with grubs cli 8) |
| 00:12.13 | xxx | So I should make a windows boot disk? |
| 00:12.17 | walnuck | xxx: y, keep a recovery plan in hand before trying something you're less than 100% sure |
| 00:12.17 | nvz | fearl: I have yet to understand anything grub.. although my other box has been using it ever since I ran D-I on it |
| 00:12.19 | *** join/#debian Gokee213 (~Gokee2@4.242.9.133) |
| 00:12.23 | nvz | xxx: yes of course |
| 00:12.24 | greycat | xxx: if you intend to keep using windows, yes. |
| 00:12.25 | xxx | How do I do that? |
| 00:12.32 | greycat | how would we know? |
| 00:12.40 | nvz | xxx: format -s a: |
| 00:12.53 | xxx | UNfortunately as much as I hate Bill Gates, I need windows on this computer |
| 00:12.53 | greycat | nvz: that only works in DOS, not in the NT famiyl. |
| 00:13.02 | greycat | and almost EVERYONE means NT when they say Windows these days. |
| 00:13.05 | fearl | nvz: very nice imo... although the prompt is rather confusing at first when it can't find an OS... |
| 00:13.08 | nvz | greycat: well guess what.. I am old skool |
| 00:13.14 | greycat | nvz: I hear ya. |
| 00:13.16 | jetscreamer | it's format /s |
| 00:13.20 | jetscreamer | btw |
| 00:13.22 | mentor | xxx: lilo won't change your partition table. It will, however, overwrite any boot sectors you tell it to. If these are needed for Windows, then Windows will be broken. |
| 00:13.26 | greycat | jetscreamer: heh, that too :) |
| 00:13.35 | nvz | greycat: I studied for my A+ 7 years ago |
| 00:13.44 | greycat | xxx: if it's winNT, win2k or winXP, then that "format /s a:" will not work. |
| 00:13.51 | xxx | win 98 |
| 00:13.56 | jetscreamer | yeah nt doesn't sys stuff |
| 00:14.03 | jetscreamer | there is freedos though |
| 00:14.05 | *** join/#debian kingsley (~kingsley@dsl-47-131.nas.com) |
| 00:14.12 | *** join/#debian muhoo (~muhoo@adsl-69-107-95-162.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 00:14.14 | greycat | xxx: in that case, you've been told precisely what you needed to know :) |
| 00:14.32 | xxx | go to dos and format -s a |
| 00:14.32 | nvz | jetscreamer: yay! I've been using linux so long I cant make valid dos syntax! |
| 00:14.37 | greycat | xxx: /s |
| 00:14.38 | fearl | greycat: wrong syntax for one.... |
| 00:14.49 | nvz | xxx: format /s a: |
| 00:14.50 | greycat | fearl: it's been corrected at least 3 times now |
| 00:14.52 | jetscreamer | format /u /s a: is what i like |
| 00:15.01 | xxx | OK format /s a: |
| 00:15.04 | fearl | format a: /s |
| 00:15.13 | *** part/#debian ludal (~ludal@laborde-2-81-57-254-81.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 00:15.19 | idnar | fearl: location of the flags doesn't matter |
| 00:15.20 | greycat | of course you need a floppy, too. |
| 00:15.22 | jetscreamer | you can put the switches anywhere |
| 00:15.26 | jetscreamer | yeah what he said |
| 00:15.27 | xxx | I be back. |
| 00:15.30 | fearl | idnar: last I checked, it does... |
| 00:15.33 | walnuck | xxx: lilo does touch the boot blocks, don't install it on the windows partition boot block that's all, this is probably why should have a bootdisk |
| 00:15.43 | *** part/#debian HillStat (~Nomad@82.154.121.77) |
| 00:15.45 | *** join/#debian SanPain (~asaf@168-226-107-79.speedy.com.ar) |
| 00:15.47 | kingsley | Is there a better utility for converting pdf files to text than "pdftotext"? |
| 00:15.54 | idnar | fearl: for some apps, yes, but not any of the apps that are part of MS-DOS |
| 00:15.58 | *** part/#debian SanPain (~asaf@168-226-107-79.speedy.com.ar) |
| 00:16.09 | _rene_ | there are apps included in MS-DOS? :) |
| 00:16.14 | nvz | the unix lessons are best.. because that covers everything I had to say, not only do you need recue disks but you need to know how to perform rescue perceedures |
| 00:16.28 | *** join/#debian dogayonv (~dogayonv@69-161-28-156.chvlva.adelphia.net) |
| 00:17.00 | walnuck | nvz: know of any good tools that do that? |
| 00:17.11 | nvz | walnuck: do what? |
| 00:17.12 | dogayonv | how can I get my house working under CLI mode? I tried gpm config but have no luck its a ps2 aux mouse it works fine in kernel 2.4 but not 2.6 what module(s) do I need loaded? |
| 00:17.21 | greycat | !works in 2.4 |
| 00:17.21 | dpkg | Every time you say "___ doesn't work in 2.6, but it worked in 2.4", a 25 cent (USD) surcharge must be paid to greycat. |
| 00:17.28 | walnuck | nvz: rescuing a failboot for a linux os |
| 00:17.34 | greycat | cha-ching! |
| 00:17.38 | *** join/#debian jrdittmann (~jrdittman@astound-64-83-224-247.mn.astound.net) |
| 00:17.44 | nvz | walnuck: yeah a debian cd.. any one// pref a small one |
| 00:17.47 | stew | a house with a cli? |
| 00:18.10 | walnuck | nvz: ok, i was wondering if system rescue cd from sf.net is a good one, someone told me about it.. |
| 00:18.17 | *** join/#debian aveng0 (~apple@HSE-Montreal-ppp339973.sympatico.ca) |
| 00:18.26 | nvz | walnuck: if you dont know what you are doing nothing is going to help |
| 00:18.40 | *** join/#debian isaac_ (~isaac@dsl017-066-091.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 00:18.44 | nvz | walnuck: all you need is bootable media that is clean |
| 00:18.53 | walnuck | nvz: true, but it did happen, and i managed luckily.. |
| 00:18.59 | dogayonv | Anyone willing to help? |
| 00:19.00 | *** part/#debian Kuril (1000@ip196.mountain-view.slc.ygnition.net) |
| 00:19.02 | *** join/#debian CVirus (~cvirus@62.135.96.164) |
| 00:19.05 | bucky | if you dont no how to reed |
| 00:19.07 | CVirus | sorry for this spoon feeding but i need the wget arguments that can make me get this http://www.slackware.com/book/ ? |
| 00:19.19 | Zta | Why can I not set the accesspoint of my wireless interface? iwconfig eth1 ap <MAC-address> && iwconfig eth1 commit is ignored; iwconfig eth1 keeps showing FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF. |
| 00:19.25 | kingsley | ps2ascii |
| 00:19.27 | nvz | walnuck: I just boot the debian cd, mount my root partition, chroot and proceed to change passwd, install a new mbr, or kernel or whatever is needed |
| 00:19.32 | mentor | dogayonv: You need the input core for input devices under 2.6 |
| 00:19.50 | *** join/#debian faw (~felipe@200.138.46.87) |
| 00:20.01 | dogayonv | ok thank you mentor |
| 00:20.14 | TimFreeman | walnuck: When I do what nvz said, I always have to type control-alt-f2 to get a shell prompt. |
| 00:20.29 | nvz | TimFreeman: you dont know how to use your boot media |
| 00:20.40 | nvz | TimFreeman: but you do know how to rescue which is good |
| 00:20.44 | isaac_ | do the official sarge jigdo CD's have the forcedeth patch installed? |
| 00:20.57 | TimFreeman | I want a shell prompt, I get a shell prompt, what's the problem? |
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| 00:21.04 | nvz | TimFreeman: the disk has many modes and kernels, you have to enter the rescue boot param, rather than letting it load the installer |
| 00:21.11 | walnuck | nvz: what about partition resizers, i did have to resolve of giving up an existing ext2 fs and rather had to delete the partition to make two of it.. the issue is i took prudent steps of not overlapping or underlapping resizing and partition shrinking .. wonder why partitioning is still a bitch |
| 00:21.42 | nvz | TimFreeman: the problem being you are not even realizing that the debian developers designed those disks to act as both install and rescue disks |
| 00:22.06 | bucky | i dont no how to reed |
| 00:22.17 | nvz | walnuck: have you even tried Debian-Installer? |
| 00:22.20 | greycat | bucky: hire someone to do your work for you |
| 00:22.21 | walnuck | bucky: but you do know how to write, yes? |
| 00:22.27 | bucky | barely |
| 00:22.28 | greycat | walnuck: no, apparently not. |
| 00:22.37 | walnuck | greycat: ;0 |
| 00:22.44 | nvz | walnuck: if you have to resize partitions you probably should be using lvm, which is easily configured in the new installer |
| 00:22.45 | karsten | Can somone give me thet syntax for debootstrap. I'm documenting a process. 'debootstrap . woody http://ftp.us.debian.org/'? |
| 00:22.48 | *** join/#debian jrdittamm (~jrdittman@astound-64-83-224-247.mn.astound.net) |
| 00:22.50 | remedy | can you not firewall a virtual interface with iptables? im getting an error regarding 'weird characters' which i assume is the : in eth0:x, anybody able to help? |
| 00:22.59 | bucky | greycat, are you a stay at home mom? |
| 00:23.13 | faw | karsten, check install how to! :) |
| 00:23.14 | *** join/#debian dawg_ (dawg@dsl-203-113-214-83.QLD.netspace.net.au) |
| 00:23.14 | walnuck | nvz: that's too new isn't it? curiously is this the competition with ms's own lvm? |
| 00:23.26 | bucky | what are you doing now days? |
| 00:23.44 | greycat | right now? I'm reviewing "/lastlog bucky" to decide whether to kick you. |
| 00:23.56 | walnuck | bucky: debian is alive and well, geez you really should know how to trust the documents |
| 00:23.57 | *** part/#debian ossi (~ossi@port-195-158-174-174.dynamic.qsc.de) |
| 00:23.58 | vladkao | greycat: not yet :) |
| 00:24.01 | greycat | since you're still here, you know what I decided :) |
| 00:24.23 | *** part/#debian TimFreeman (~tim@fungible.com) |
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| 00:25.11 | walnuck | nvz: am i able to convert without losing data, my partitions to lvm? |
| 00:25.19 | karsten | faw: URL? |
| 00:25.26 | bucky | greycat, is your website down? |
| 00:25.30 | VapourBoy | okay, I've got the alsa oss compatibility modules loaded, now I beleive that my links under /dev are wrong |
| 00:25.38 | faw | karsten, just a sec... |
| 00:25.42 | VapourBoy | /dev/dsp is linked to /dev/dsp0 |
| 00:25.53 | VapourBoy | is that correct? |
| 00:25.57 | greycat | bucky: not as far as I know |
| 00:25.59 | bucky | what's the link? |
| 00:26.01 | *** join/#debian Baldrick (josep@200.Red-217-126-49.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 00:26.05 | walnuck | bucky: stop whinning, you sound like a dog without a head, at least my dog behaves |
| 00:26.10 | karsten | faw: http://www.burgettsys.com/stories/59455/ |
| 00:26.15 | Baldrick | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:26.20 | greycat | oops. |
| 00:26.24 | Baldrick | ouch |
| 00:26.39 | *** join/#debian SanPain (~asaf@168-226-107-79.speedy.com.ar) |
| 00:26.39 | karsten | faw: debootstrap --arch <arch> <dist> <mountpoint> <archive> |
| 00:26.40 | greycat | UTF-8 in a nickserv passwd... interesting. |
| 00:26.48 | faw | karsten, http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch-preparing.en.html#s-linux-upgrade |
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| 00:28.51 | walnuck | anyone can clue me on storage area networks? i'm a lost bat swinging at sites that don't help- SAN, isn't that just a bunch of dirt machines with like a DFS of some kind? |
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| 00:30.31 | bucky | walnuck, you mean like gfs ? http://www.redhat.com/software/rha/gfs/ |
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| 00:31.13 | walnuck | bucky: i mean if YOU have done it boy |
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| 00:32.43 | karsten | faw: Thanks. |
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| 00:33.23 | faw | karsten, np |
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| 00:37.00 | pasc | karsten: scary eh? |
| 00:37.12 | simonrvn | isn't there a gtk2 colour wheel app (other than the gimp)? |
| 00:39.37 | simonrvn | hmm gtkcolorsel or such.. |
| 00:40.08 | nvz | simonrvn: chameleon? is that gtk2? |
| 00:40.24 | simonrvn | chameleon - Application for putting pictures or color in the root window |
| 00:40.34 | nvz | simonrvn: na thats gtk1.2 |
| 00:40.34 | simonrvn | just popped up =). um dunno |
| 00:40.39 | greycat | |
| 00:40.43 | greycat | bleh. |
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| 00:41.03 | simonrvn | *sigh* |
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| 00:41.22 | simonrvn | the gimp it is then |
| 00:41.38 | nvz | simonrvn: what do you need? something that can give the RGB/CMYK/HTML values for colors? |
| 00:41.46 | *** part/#debian alobodig-ny (~~CRM-114@24-168-24-189.si.rr.com) |
| 00:41.48 | xxx | gimp is awesome |
| 00:41.48 | nvz | HSL |
| 00:41.52 | nvz | whatever |
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| 00:42.02 | xxx | Except I dont quite know how to use it. |
| 00:42.04 | karsten | pasc: Quite. |
| 00:42.08 | nvz | I dont know I guess they call the HTML values Hex |
| 00:42.16 | karsten | pasc: Where'd bob2 get that wig? ;-) |
| 00:42.24 | JoshTriplett | nvz: Yup. #123456 |
| 00:42.30 | nvz | so its RGB, CMYK, HSL, HEX |
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| 00:42.47 | JoshTriplett | nvz: Technically, you don't need to list the last one, since it's just RGB. |
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| 00:43.04 | JoshTriplett | nvz: Also, it's HSV, not HSL. |
| 00:43.10 | JoshTriplett | nvz: Hue, Saturation, Value. |
| 00:43.13 | nvz | JoshTriplett: yeah but alot of color wheels spit out the HEX for webdesigners |
| 00:43.21 | JoshTriplett | nvz: True. |
| 00:43.28 | mentor | JoshTriplett: HSL and HSV or both colour models. |
| 00:43.29 | nvz | JoshTriplett: I call it Hue Saturation Light |
| 00:43.35 | JoshTriplett | nvz: OK. |
| 00:43.40 | simonrvn | nvz: yeh, *just* that, like the old gtkcolorsel |
| 00:43.49 | JoshTriplett | nvz: While you're on the subject, there's also YUV. |
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| 00:44.01 | mentor | and LAB |
| 00:44.03 | JoshTriplett | nvz: And YCrCb. |
| 00:44.06 | t-jack | Woo I'm back. |
| 00:44.07 | JoshTriplett | mentor: ? |
| 00:44.11 | nvz | Crominance.. heh |
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| 00:44.17 | mentor | JoshTriplett: ? to what? |
| 00:44.22 | nvz | I dont know about the YUV though |
| 00:44.23 | JoshTriplett | mentor: LAB? |
| 00:44.35 | mentor | JoshTriplett: Yes, the LAB colourspace... |
| 00:44.39 | mentor | ~lab |
| 00:44.40 | apt | lab is, like, Linux As Bootloader or - as the handhelds.org folks like to call it - bootldr-ng - and as that the next generation bootloader for ARM devices, check http://www.handhelds.org/projects/bootldr-ng.html for more information |
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| 00:44.51 | mentor | JoshTriplett: You'd be better looking it up |
| 00:44.53 | simonrvn | xxx: the gimp is a good app. v2.x.x is really nice |
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| 00:45.53 | JoshTriplett | mentor: OK, I found a reference on it. But what uses it? |
| 00:46.02 | nvz | simonrvn: nvz@giver:~$ apt-cache search gtk2 color | less |
| 00:46.02 | nvz | metacity-themes - Themes for the Gtk2 metacity window manager |
| 00:46.02 | walnuck | Blissex: are you still available? |
| 00:46.04 | nvz | (heh |
| 00:46.10 | t-jack | Are there any... special... caviats of late against using Sid? |
| 00:46.16 | nvz | so much for that |
| 00:46.22 | JoshTriplett | t-jack: Always. |
| 00:46.34 | Blissex | walnuck: occasionally. |
| 00:46.39 | JoshTriplett | t-jack: At the moment, if you use any mozilla based browser, PostScript printing is broken. |
| 00:46.40 | greycat | t-jack: usually the /topic will have any important breakages |
| 00:46.42 | mentor | JoshTriplett: The LAB colourspace is basically what everything else is defined in...it has the biggest gamut too. |
| 00:46.55 | JoshTriplett | mentor: What do you mean "everything else"? |
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| 00:47.24 | mentor | JoshTriplett: All the other colourspace are defined by how they relate to the LAB colourspace. |
| 00:47.33 | UltraSub | is there a package for debian which lets me test memory? |
| 00:47.39 | mentor | JoshTriplett: You should probably look up some colour theory. |
| 00:47.39 | greycat | memtest86 |
| 00:47.41 | JoshTriplett | UltraSub: memtest86 |
| 00:47.47 | t-jack | greycat: OK |
| 00:47.47 | UltraSub | thnx |
| 00:47.53 | greycat | nothing portable across arches, though |
| 00:47.54 | JoshTriplett | mentor: Interesting. It seems like something like RGB or HSV would be more fundamental. |
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| 00:48.19 | walnuck | Blissex: i'll try my 2nd attempt for a good dupe, i was wondering if i should install all optional binaries for k3b.. |
| 00:48.26 | mentor | JoshTriplett: No, RGB/HSV have limited ranges of colours... |
| 00:48.31 | JoshTriplett | mentor: More so than something like "varies from yellow to blue" and "varies from red to green". |
| 00:48.33 | Blissex | walnuck: can't hurt. |
| 00:48.36 | JoshTriplett | mentor: What do you mean? |
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| 00:48.44 | t-jack | greycat: Part of the reason I ask is that xauth is mucking me. |
| 00:48.44 | JoshTriplett | mentor: Are there colors you can't express? |
| 00:48.56 | mentor | JoshTriplett: Their gamut is smaller. They can't represent all colours... |
| 00:49.04 | nvz | JoshTriplett: that leads into the question are there colors at all |
| 00:49.15 | walnuck | Blissex: k3b wrote is at 2x, i believe this drive supports 16x rw, is there a tinker switch i should set somewhere? |
| 00:49.41 | JoshTriplett | nvz: That's not one I'd want to get into. |
| 00:49.50 | UltraSub | um.. installed memtest86, but how do i use it... no man entries, or --help |
| 00:49.50 | walnuck | Blissex: (16x rw was meant for cd)...is speed setting an issue here? |
| 00:50.02 | greycat | UltraSub: /usr/share/doc/memtest86 |
| 00:50.08 | UltraSub | thnx |
| 00:50.09 | Blissex | walnuck: if you have a drive that can write DVDs at 16x, you should immediately license it to Toshiba or Sony :-) |
| 00:50.31 | Blissex | walnuck: speed setting should not be an issue as long as supported by your media. |
| 00:50.31 | t-jack | greycat: And I had considered the possibility that there would be something in Unstable that aleviated the problem. |
| 00:50.35 | greycat | 1x for DVDs is somewhere around 7-8x for CDs. They changed the units. |
| 00:51.05 | walnuck | Blissex: sorry I didn't mention that it did burn up to not including the last few megabytes, the size was well below 4.7g..was wondering what went wrong as it is mountable and readble.. |
| 00:51.09 | t-jack | :shuts up... |
| 00:51.20 | peterS | greycat: I think it's more than that, isn't it? |
| 00:51.30 | peterS | greycat: like, 1x for a DVD is something like 10 Mbyte/s? |
| 00:51.39 | Blissex | walnuck: mountable/readable depends only on the table of contents that is at the beginnin of the disk. |
| 00:51.58 | greycat | I don't know the exact numbers off hand |
| 00:52.06 | Blissex | walnuck: try again. Your media may be a bit rubbish, or not enough bandwidth. Try reburning at 1x, even if that is slow. |
| 00:52.12 | [DeMoNio] | [peterS] |
| 00:52.21 | [DeMoNio] | what is your conexion speed? |
| 00:52.23 | greycat | as a first order approximation, writing a full DVD at 1x should take an hour |
| 00:52.57 | walnuck | Blissex: i simply catt'd the dvd, and burned the image with k3b, this time it may be hmm bothersome to use k3b to do the imaging? i do see a problem, the program seems to stall or something- which pulls to me to think i should install all optional binaries |
| 00:52.57 | peterS | greycat: a DVD holds something like 4 hours of video - but that's dual-layer. maybe 2 hours for the 4.7 GB. so 1x would take 2 hours, or somewhat less |
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| 00:53.18 | peterS | greycat: since I think the DVD 'x' scale is based on video playback |
| 00:53.28 | mentor | er... |
| 00:54.34 | walnuck | k3b: did mention it wrote like 4xxx which was under several megs of the full image size, but said that data verification failed, i'm assuming because the buffer wasn't working as it appeared low for a long time (progress bar) |
| 00:54.42 | peterS | greycat: it's a generous estimate, though, which is why I say 'somewhat less' than 2 hours. but I'd expect it to take over 1 hour, anyway. this from no actual personal experience with DVD writers |
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| 00:55.51 | walnuck | peterS: probably about an hour, since 2x mentioned by k3b took about 30-40 minutes for about 4 gigs |
| 00:56.19 | peterS | walnuck: *nods* |
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| 00:57.04 | xxx | I ran format /s a: and now have a disk |
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| 00:57.16 | walnuck | Blissex: sorry(i mailed on a cutkey) ->k3b did mention it wrote like 4xxx which was under several megs of the full image size, but said that data verification failed, i'm assuming because the buffer wasn't working as it appeared low for a long time (progress bar) |
| 00:57.30 | Blissex | walnuck: 'cat' of the image may be a bad idea... |
| 00:57.36 | xxx | Doesnt the dos disk use the partition table from the hard drive? |
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| 00:57.44 | nvz | xxx: whoo hoo.. I havent touched windows or a floppy disk in ages.. I may just die happy |
| 00:58.04 | nvz | xxx: disks do not have partitions or partition tables |
| 00:58.30 | xxx | How does the OS know where the C: is? |
| 00:58.36 | nvz | xxx: In fact I dont think you know what a partition or a partition table is |
| 00:58.48 | Blissex | walnuck: you should read a lot more HOWTOs on the subject. let me repeat: don't use 'cat'. Either use the duplication command of K3b, if it is a data DVD-ROM, or use a ripper if it is a DVD video. If you want to do something else, you are on your own. |
| 00:58.54 | xxx | A partition divides the disk |
| 00:58.54 | walnuck | xxx: think of it this way, an OS is an extension of the bios program |
| 00:58.59 | Baldrick | how can I know what font I am using on the console? |
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| 00:59.01 | greycat | xxx: DOS assigns C: to "the first recognizable partition of the first fixed disk" |
| 00:59.04 | xxx | A partition table tells where the files are. |
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| 00:59.22 | McKurky-AFK | nvz: be nice |
| 00:59.34 | nvz | xxx: no a partitiontable divides the disk into partitions which contain filesystems which tell where the files are |
| 00:59.43 | walnuck | greycat: dos copies *nix, it actually "mounts", the cheap bastards never admit it |
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| 00:59.59 | greycat | walnuck: but it skips over anything it can't "mount" |
| 01:00.02 | Blissex | xxx: dont think the OS in an extension of the BIOS program, it is really wrong... |
| 01:00.06 | McKurky | xxx: what are you trying to do? |
| 01:00.11 | linoleum | hello |
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| 01:00.25 | walnuck | greycat: because dos sucks, which is what xxx should learn |
| 01:00.26 | greycat | walnuck: so if you have /dev/hda1 = linux root ext2 and /dev/hda2 = linux swap and /dev/hda3 = FAT32, and you boot a DOS floppy, C: will be /dev/hda3 |
| 01:00.37 | xxx | I want to know what lilo overwrites. |
| 01:00.45 | nvz | McKurky: trying to understand life beyond Explorer.exe I believe |
| 01:00.47 | greycat | xxx: whatever the "boot =" lines tells it to. |
| 01:00.51 | greycat | s/lines/line/ |
| 01:01.00 | nvz | xxx: which should be the MBR |
| 01:01.10 | greycat | which should be /dev/hda and not /dev/hda1 |
| 01:01.11 | linoleum | plz, what the command , under VIM , to change all expression , in the all text . I know ":s/before/after" , but it change the text just on 1 line, and I need in the all text. |
| 01:01.15 | walnuck | greycat: if it is below 1024 i believe..depending what dos, i think freedos can overcome this limitation if it is an issue with the older dos's |
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| 01:01.27 | nvz | xxx: people who dont know what it does, should use the MBR and not write to partitions |
| 01:01.31 | McKurky | xxx: lilo can be installed in many places |
| 01:01.35 | greycat | linoleum: :%s/foo/bar/g |
| 01:01.37 | \amethyst | linoleum: :%s/before/after/g |
| 01:01.45 | McKurky | xxx: beginnings of partitions, or the MBR |
| 01:01.49 | greycat | % is a shortcut for 1,$ |
| 01:02.11 | walnuck | xxx: man lilo, and backup |
| 01:02.12 | McKurky | xxx: do you want to dual-boot, or something? |
| 01:02.15 | linoleum | tanks a lot guys |
| 01:02.23 | xxx | OK the bios boots up and starts running code in the hard drive at some point. |
| 01:02.41 | McKurky | xxx: what is your end goal, or is your end goal knowledge? |
| 01:02.46 | greycat | xxx: the BIOS reads the master boot record of the first drive |
| 01:02.49 | xxx | knowledge |
| 01:02.53 | McKurky | xxx: if it's knowledge, google might be a better place to look. |
| 01:03.01 | McKurky | xxx: A+ cert or something like that. |
| 01:03.12 | McKurky | xxx: for generic PC stuff. |
| 01:03.13 | nvz | McKurky: you werent here earlier, I told you, he wants to know what happens outside Exporer.exe |
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| 01:03.25 | xxx | Does lilo touch the master boot record? |
| 01:03.29 | McKurky | nvz: doesn't mean you have to be rude. and you also don't have to listen to me. |
| 01:03.31 | nvz | xxx: yeah I have a cool magazine that tells all about pcs |
| 01:03.35 | McKurky | xxx: yes, it can |
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| 01:03.46 | wayeryan | yay, I am going to unstable |
| 01:03.48 | wayeryan | hurrah! |
| 01:03.52 | McKurky | xxx: but it doesn't have to overwrite the MBR |
| 01:03.56 | nvz | McKurky: I am not being rude, I am telling him what he wants to know, unlike you |
| 01:04.06 | nvz | McKurky: he had a misconception, I corrected it |
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| 01:04.24 | walnuck | xxx: the OS gets called after it has been bootstrapped from lilo, which is little code which gets installed on the first bit of your harddrive (lilo is safe to install on /dev/hda assuming you're using an ide hd), this little bit is auto-called from the bios |
| 01:04.28 | McKurky | nvz: with a healthy amount of derision, of course. |
| 01:04.34 | McKurky | nvz: but so be it. |
| 01:04.37 | walnuck | xxx: so in sense an OS is nothing but a bios extension.. |
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| 01:04.51 | t-jack | Have they ever caught ben Ladin yet? |
| 01:05.03 | greycat | t-jack: *wrong* channel. |
| 01:05.12 | nvz | walnuck: the BIOS is nothing more than a silicon launchpad if something were put in its place it would make no difference |
| 01:05.39 | nvz | walnuck: its a silicon wafer that reads a drives geometry enought to point its code to the MBR and pass control |
| 01:05.43 | McKurky | yeah, I don't think referring to an OS as an "extension of BIOS" is ... accurate.. |
| 01:05.44 | xxx | The bios starts looking to code to run |
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| 01:06.13 | \amethyst | nvz: Not quite true because of system management mode |
| 01:06.31 | nvz | \amethyst: what? |
| 01:06.33 | walnuck | nvz: well you can go down to probability chemistry, but he's trying to understand just a "basic" sight ;-) |
| 01:06.36 | xxx | In the old days if the bios could not find code it ran some default thingy. |
| 01:06.58 | nvz | xxx: like on the Apple IIgs? |
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| 01:07.06 | greycat | xxx: LILO puts a small block of code in the MBR for the BIOS to run |
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| 01:07.55 | xxx | Where does lilos start writing? |
| 01:07.55 | greycat | xxx: this small block of code knows where the Linux kernel's starting sector is, and it starts up the kernel, with parameters that you typed in (if any) |
| 01:07.55 | \amethyst | nvz: The BIOS can in some circumstances ``take over'' the computer temporarily. This is a processor feature of recent enough Intel (and AMD) chips |
| 01:07.55 | walnuck | McKurky: a technical point of view is evolution ;-)..it's all probability chemistry! |
| 01:07.55 | larsie | I've editet .config file, do I need to recompile kernel ? |
| 01:07.55 | greycat | xxx: LILO writes where the "boot =" line tells it to. |
| 01:07.56 | nvz | xxx: thats determined by the lilo configuration |
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| 01:07.59 | greycat | xxx: we've already told you this. |
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| 01:08.28 | greycat | larsie: make oldconfig; make bzImage |
| 01:08.38 | larsie | Thanx. |
| 01:08.42 | nvz | \amethyst: what I am saying is that if there were a firmware chip, or something else in there passing control to the MBR, the OS couldnt care less.. at least any real OS |
| 01:09.09 | docgnome | Anyone have any idea why X might tell me that it can't find any screens when I try to start it? |
| 01:09.12 | xxx | boot = /dev/hda |
| 01:09.18 | greycat | !noscreensfound |
| 01:09.18 | dpkg | rumour has it, noscreensfound is dpkg-reconfigure -plow xserver-xfree86 and SAY NO to the framebuffer question If that doesn't work, read /var/log/XFree86.* and see what's wrong. No, really. READ it. I mean it. Really read it. |
| 01:09.35 | docgnome | Thanks. |
| 01:09.35 | zumbe | #red_eye |
| 01:09.49 | nvz | docgnome: and also there is an error "Screens found, but none have a usable configuration" that is sometimes shown before that error |
| 01:09.59 | xxx | So lilo just starts writing to the beginning of the drive? |
| 01:09.59 | \amethyst | nvz: true |
| 01:10.03 | nvz | docgnome: which is a sign of another type of misconfiguration |
| 01:10.05 | elephantman | How can i list all users/groups present on my system ? |
| 01:10.09 | greycat | xxx: /usr/share/doc/lilo/ |
| 01:10.13 | greycat | xxx: www.google.com |
| 01:10.25 | sussudio | elephantman: who? |
| 01:10.26 | xxx | Is that statement true? |
| 01:10.30 | Blissex | elephantman: 'view /etc/passwd' and 'view /etc/group' |
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| 01:10.43 | nvz | xxx: ffs lilo starts writing where it is told to write |
| 01:10.56 | elephantman | Blissex: ok thanx |
| 01:11.01 | *** join/#debian mocat (~jiger0gr9@203.23.200.55) |
| 01:11.07 | xxx | so boot = /dev/hda means it starts at beginning of drive? |
| 01:11.09 | *** join/#debian ninja__ (im10ninjas@modem-3122.lemur.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 01:11.12 | nvz | xxx: yes |
| 01:11.12 | elephantman | sussudio: "who" shows connected users i think |
| 01:11.42 | zumbe | http://www.guiadohardware.net/ |
| 01:12.14 | elephantman | how to change a user from one group to another ? |
| 01:12.16 | *** join/#debian LeE (~HANDE__@62.114.22.103) |
| 01:12.29 | nvz | elephantman: you dont |
| 01:12.40 | nvz | elephantman: you either add or remove them from groups |
| 01:12.42 | *** part/#debian danielon (~root@CM-mapu2-103-168.cm.vtr.net) |
| 01:12.46 | walnuck | xxx: you can always use a disk instead first, it'll have the same effect (safer since you're newbie) |
| 01:12.46 | *** join/#debian mick_laptop (~chatzilla@adsl-068-209-110-207.sip.mia.bellsouth.net) |
| 01:12.54 | elephantman | nvz: oh ok |
| 01:12.55 | walnuck | xxx: lilo can install to a disk too |
| 01:13.10 | nvz | elephantman: just like you can be a member of girl scouts and the local ball busters union |
| 01:13.19 | xxx | Why do you think I am a newbie? |
| 01:13.20 | elephantman | nvz: right |
| 01:13.31 | greycat | xxx: because you're refusing to read the docs |
| 01:13.43 | walnuck | xxx: you're new at something, i'm a newbie when i do something new, you are a "newbie" |
| 01:14.06 | nvz | xxx: because your ignorant baby boomer parents bought you a pc with MS Windows on it as a child, and you found out about real software an never read any of the docs? |
| 01:14.10 | walnuck | greycat: that's another reason, i call those expletives newbies ;) |
| 01:14.24 | xxx | I am not exactly new at this, I am experienced enough to know that this stuff is very complicated |
| 01:14.34 | *** join/#debian jj110888 (~joe@adsl-68-78-46-139.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net) |
| 01:14.35 | thomas_adam | Anyone here know how the message-ID field in email headers in generated? I am not sure whether it is MUA depedant or not, but it looks to me as though it is created by the date... I'm just curious really. |
| 01:14.41 | thomas_adam | !tell thomas_adam about anyone |
| 01:14.46 | walnuck | xxx: its' complicated because there is no " quotations " when you read |
| 01:14.51 | nvz | xxx: its only what you make it do be |
| 01:15.29 | jj110888 | um, the jigdo instructions say how to dl for testing and stable, is there a special way to get unstable? |
| 01:15.29 | nvz | ever consider that its simple stuff and your thought process is overcomplicating it? |
| 01:15.30 | Gathond | jj110888: the way to get unstable is to install stable/testing and upgrade it |
| 01:15.41 | *** join/#debian deepcore (~deepcore@Fiberlink.71-219.lynx.net.lb) |
| 01:15.51 | nvz | take my cat for example.. never had credit debt, doesnt have get worried about current world events |
| 01:15.52 | *** join/#debian docgnome (~dkerschne@d33-244.rb.gh.centurytel.net) |
| 01:15.57 | elephantman | xxx: everything is very well documented on linux - unreadble but documented |
| 01:16.06 | jj110888 | Gathond, ah, thanks |
| 01:16.29 | walnuck | elephantman: not everything, but a good deal |
| 01:16.38 | peterS | nvz: yeah, it helps to have a sugar daddy |
| 01:16.50 | nvz | I think our abilities as "superior beings" could be misused to complicate just about anything |
| 01:16.59 | elephantman | walnuck: well compared to MS products |
| 01:17.19 | nvz | peterS: you must be asg's sugar daddy, or should I say pimp |
| 01:17.20 | greycat | nvz: "world events" are relative. If a big dog moves in on the corner, that could be a big political issue for your cat. |
| 01:17.22 | *** join/#debian EspeonEefi (espeoneefi@cpe-066-061-018-017.midsouth.rr.com) |
| 01:17.26 | *** join/#debian voltagex (~voltagex@54.cust23.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au) |
| 01:17.31 | peterS | nvz: eh? how do you figure? I just mean, cats have it easy |
| 01:17.32 | xxx | I actually know what happens when linux boots from a floppy. |
| 01:17.34 | *** join/#debian guccio (~guccio@218.80.123.88) |
| 01:17.39 | docgnome | Some one said something before I left about X giving an error "Screens found, but none have a useable configureation" And... thats the error i'm getting now. |
| 01:17.55 | elephantman | is this #philosophy ? |
| 01:18.03 | *** join/#debian usual (~csmall@alb-24-195-251-37.nycap.rr.com) |
| 01:18.05 | voltagex | docgnome: your x configuration is b0rked |
| 01:18.24 | xxx | So what is difference between linux booting from floppy and hard drive? |
| 01:18.37 | greycat | xxx: didn't I already TELL you all of this? |
| 01:18.41 | elephantman | xxx: the device |
| 01:18.58 | peterS | xxx: the boot loader does different things. the kernel, once the boot loader has handed over control, does pretty much the same things |
| 01:18.59 | xxx | When linux boot from floppy it just start running the code on floppy |
| 01:19.07 | walnuck | xxx: its safer period, and will give you less worry about f** you're drive since you're a "newbie" |
| 01:19.11 | xxx | When linux boots from hard drive it has a choice. |
| 01:19.12 | docgnome | voltagex: Yar... I need to try and figure out how the crap I'm supposed to figure out half the stuff they ask about my monitor. Cause I have no idea heh. |
| 01:19.19 | *** join/#debian genevar (~genevar@genevar.registered) |
| 01:19.29 | voltagex | docgnome |
| 01:19.38 | peterS | xxx: normally when Linux boots from a floppy it is assisted by 'syslinux' or 'grub'. it *can* boot standalone, but usually doesn't. |
| 01:19.39 | voltagex | docgnome: search google for your monitor |
| 01:19.51 | voltagex | docgnome: see if you can find the specs |
| 01:19.54 | xxx | You can just cat the kernel to the floppy |
| 01:20.02 | *** join/#debian kreg (~kreg@customer-dsl-216-222-8-189.boi.velocitus.net) |
| 01:20.24 | peterS | xxx: I'm not sure if that still works in kernel 2.6. I know they talked about removing it, since 'syslinux' is a better solution |
| 01:20.42 | walnuck | xxx: you can dog the cat and get on with the floppy too |
| 01:20.51 | voltagex | !tell docgnome about setup x |
| 01:20.59 | peterS | walnuck: that wasn't necessary |
| 01:21.02 | *** mode/#debian [+l 653] by debhelper |
| 01:21.12 | walnuck | peterS: there's also "dog" command :-) |
| 01:21.23 | walnuck | jk ;-) |
| 01:22.04 | peterS | walnuck: referring to the line in 'revenge of the nerds' about spelling 'dog'? |
| 01:22.13 | *** join/#debian xammu (~xammu@pD955E70C.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 01:22.20 | greycat | peterS: I think you're looking too deep. |
| 01:22.29 | voltagex | docgnome: any luck? |
| 01:22.31 | walnuck | peterS: no, i was referring that there's also the dog command which is cool |
| 01:22.32 | *** join/#debian supxr (~sup@modemcable145.248-70-69.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 01:23.00 | greycat | "dog" to replace "cat" is just like "less" to replace "more". |
| 01:23.12 | *** part/#debian genevar (~genevar@genevar.registered) |
| 01:23.16 | peterS | greycat: yeah. or bison to replace yacc |
| 01:23.24 | nvz | heh |
| 01:23.29 | voltagex | greycat: what's the point of replacing cat? doesn't it work fine already? |
| 01:23.40 | peterS | voltagex: apt-cache show dog. dog is like cat + wget |
| 01:23.41 | The_Vulture | I would have thought more replaced less.. |
| 01:23.41 | greycat | I guess that's a matter of opinion. |
| 01:23.46 | walnuck | greycat: it apparently did look strange at the glance the 2nd time, it wasn't my intention :( |
| 01:23.51 | The_Vulture | I don't know the history though |
| 01:24.05 | voltagex | The_Vulture: I still use less |
| 01:24.06 | docgnome | voltagex: Aye... I found what i think are my monitor specs... but that didn't help |
| 01:24.17 | docgnome | voltagex: putting them in i mean. |
| 01:24.41 | supxr | how can i change 'hostname' ? |
| 01:24.44 | peterS | The_Vulture: nope. more was traditional unix. less was a free software alternative |
| 01:24.47 | The_Vulture | voltagex: I use more, because I can scroll back as well as forwards (I guess that means it uses more memory.. and maybe more does that too these days..) |
| 01:24.55 | The_Vulture | ah nevermind |
| 01:24.59 | walnuck | greycat: but since he has alias "xxx" i thought it wasn't that bad, was it? |
| 01:25.00 | peterS | The_Vulture: less has *a lot* more features than more |
| 01:25.00 | supxr | nevermind |
| 01:25.01 | The_Vulture | I'm getting myself confused, right, I use less.. |
| 01:25.02 | nvz | supxr: put your hostname in /etc/hostname, then hostname -F /etc/hostname |
| 01:25.02 | *** join/#debian sil^ (~aquarius@82-37-93-92.cable.ubr04.dudl.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 01:25.06 | The_Vulture | more less and less more |
| 01:25.14 | voltagex | docgnome: what do you mean? if you know the vsync & hsync you should be able to put them in |
| 01:25.17 | *** join/#debian aLLa-aLLayaw (~HeLLo@62.114.22.101) |
| 01:25.20 | xxx | So the mbr is at the very beginning of the disk? |
| 01:25.25 | peterS | The_Vulture: yeah. there's also 'most' which is an even stupider name because it implies that the joke hadn't already been played out |
| 01:25.26 | voltagex | docgnome: xf86config as root |
| 01:25.34 | docgnome | voltagex: I did. And it still gives me the same error. |
| 01:25.36 | *** join/#debian _LeU_LoKo_ (nome@200-100-192-216.dial-up.telesp.net.br) |
| 01:25.39 | elephantman | So to see if a user was added to the system, i must check /etc/passwd ? |
| 01:25.51 | _LeU_LoKo_ | alguem ai do Brasil?! |
| 01:25.55 | voltagex | docgnome: no screens found? check /var/log/X*.log |
| 01:25.57 | The_Vulture | peterS: *nods* |
| 01:25.59 | elephantman | should have a listusers function |
| 01:26.01 | greycat | more(1) is the traditional BSD-derived pager. It's pretty slim. |
| 01:26.07 | elephantman | and listgroups |
| 01:26.07 | *** join/#debian snowrichard (richard@adsl-068-209-159-248.sip.shv.bellsouth.net) |
| 01:26.09 | greycat | less(1) is the GNU replacement thereof |
| 01:26.18 | _LeU_LoKo_ | ----------------------------alguem ai do Brasil?!---------------------------------- |
| 01:26.21 | *** part/#debian deepcore (~deepcore@Fiberlink.71-219.lynx.net.lb) |
| 01:26.27 | nvz | docgnome: is the error "Screens found, but none have a usable configuration (EE) No Screens Found." or just the "(EE) No Screens Found."? |
| 01:26.35 | xxx | From reading Understanding the Linux kernel, it looks to me that lilo overwrites the mbr. |
| 01:26.43 | The_Vulture | greycat: *nods*, just had my head on backwards |
| 01:26.46 | *** join/#debian MrKeuner (~kudo@pool-151-203-56-138.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 01:26.50 | peterS | xxx: it can |
| 01:26.51 | greycat | !tell _LeU_LoKo_ about portuguese |
| 01:26.52 | sil^ | What's the best way of making a CD containing debs from unstable so I can use it to update an unstable machine without a net connection? |
| 01:26.53 | supxr | nvz what does hostname -F do ? |
| 01:26.56 | *** part/#debian pasc (pasc@gandalf.redellipse.net) |
| 01:27.00 | nvz | supxr: man hostname |
| 01:27.02 | voltagex | xxx: only if you ask it to |
| 01:27.04 | The_Vulture | sil^: apt-zip |
| 01:27.08 | supxr | can't i just add my hostname to /etc/hostname and reboot ? |
| 01:27.11 | peterS | xxx: it can also be invoked from the MS-DOS MBR if you put it at the beginning of a partition marked 'active' |
| 01:27.15 | *** join/#debian ac1d (~aderkach@ac1d.base.supporter.pdpc) |
| 01:27.18 | greycat | sil^: an unstable box SHOULD NOT LACK A NETWORK CONNECTION. That's just idiotic. |
| 01:27.33 | nvz | supxr: yeah if you are a windows user and think you have to reboot for settings to take effect |
| 01:27.36 | xxx | if boot = /dev/hda1 it is going to overwrite the mbr? It looks that way to me. |
| 01:27.40 | MrKeuner | hi, when I go over an audio file, nautilus plays throughly even if I move the cursor out. what can be the problem? |
| 01:27.44 | nvz | supxr: thats incredibly stupid |
| 01:27.49 | xxx | I mean boot = /dev/hda |
| 01:27.54 | voltagex | nvz: still trying to kick that habit ;) |
| 01:27.56 | ac1d | hello, is there any way to get a list of installed packages form one system and install those same ones on another? |
| 01:27.59 | sil^ | greycat, it does have a net connection really, it's just that it's a modem connection. I don't want to have to be dialled up for ages to update everything. |
| 01:28.01 | nvz | supxr: no, seriously, thats INCREDIBLY stupid |
| 01:28.14 | supxr | gotcha |
| 01:28.14 | greycat | sil^: then *don't update it*. |
| 01:28.24 | docgnome | nvz: That first one. |
| 01:28.27 | supxr | i just did man hostname, and it makes sense now, thanksnvz |
| 01:28.35 | greycat | nvz: no, it's just overkill. |
| 01:28.37 | *** join/#debian DaTakko (~DaTakko@p83.129.163.52.tisdip.tiscali.de) |
| 01:28.47 | xxx | if you dont do boot = /dev/hda dont you lose windows? |
| 01:28.47 | walnuck | xxx: /dev/hda is a point referring to the whole device, and # following refers to just that partition |
| 01:28.47 | nvz | docgnome: ok if screens are found, then its usually a timing problem |
| 01:29.00 | The_Vulture | greycat: why would it be so idiotic to run sid without a network connection? it's not like there would be security issues, and _so long as he got a functional system_ it wouldn't go breaking any time soon.. |
| 01:29.03 | greycat | why the fuck is xxx *STILL* asking basic lilo questions here? |
| 01:29.04 | nvz | docgnome: means your monitor and video card cant agree on a screen mode |
| 01:29.11 | sil^ | greycat, my intention is to install a newer kernel and udev/hal etc. I'm attempting to save time. |
| 01:29.23 | *** part/#debian TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@207.111.96.24) |
| 01:29.34 | docgnome | nvz: Right. What do I do about that? |
| 01:29.38 | walnuck | greycat: because you didn't forecast his love to you, i think he really likes you :) |
| 01:29.44 | voltagex | xxx: man lilo, and there's plenty of info on the net - google is your friend |
| 01:29.47 | *** join/#debian jcurry (~jcurry@mcha-aj119.taconic.net) |
| 01:29.54 | greycat | The_Vulture: there *are* security issues, and he'll have to subscribe to d-s-a at least to know which ones they are and retrieve them on an as-needed basis. |
| 01:30.07 | nvz | docgnome: usually putting in the correct sync rates for your monitor does the trick.. run dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86, say NO to frame buffer, when it comes to monitor choose advanced, and enter the sync rates, if you want I can look them up |
| 01:30.33 | walnuck | xxx: just try the diskette, and see that the diskette can work |
| 01:30.37 | nvz | !sync rates |
| 01:30.40 | The_Vulture | greycat: physical box-access type security issues, somehow I doubt he's running it as a multiuser system.. |
| 01:31.01 | greycat | The_Vulture: well, it's all moot because he *does* have a network connection to it. |
| 01:31.08 | docgnome | nvz: Would be nice if you could look them up. I have found what I think they are but not realy sure... |
| 01:31.16 | *** join/#debian struggler (icechat5@h163.166.40.162.ip.alltel.net) |
| 01:31.26 | docgnome | nvz: It's an AOC Spectrum 5Glr |
| 01:31.26 | nvz | docgnome: I can give you a URL or you can give me the make/model |
| 01:31.35 | peterS | docgnome: have you tried the 'read-edid' package? |
| 01:31.46 | sil^ | greycat, I agree with you on the security issue front. I'm talking about stuff which doesn't need a security upgrade but will take a long time to download; if I can stick the packages on a CD and sneakernet them over, it saves a lot of time and phone bill. |
| 01:31.49 | docgnome | peterS: read-edid? eh... no. |
| 01:31.51 | xxx | After due study, and careful research that if you want windows on the machine you need to let lilo overwrite the mbr |
| 01:31.52 | peterS | docgnome: apt-get install read-edid; get-edid | parse-edid |
| 01:31.53 | The_Vulture | greycat: *nods*, was just interested in the general case where someone didn't, but yes, if it was still being used by multiple persons (or even a single person who relied on the login system to keep other semi-determined people out) security issues would still be relevent |
| 01:32.04 | greycat | sil^: don't download them, then. |
| 01:32.05 | peterS | docgnome: for many, but not all, video cards and monitors, this will tell you |
| 01:32.13 | *** join/#debian carrett (~carrett@adsl-68-127-136-129.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) |
| 01:32.16 | walnuck | xxx: why don't you try the diskette? you won't kill anything! |
| 01:32.22 | voltagex | if I install debian on a PPC under bochs can I ask questions about it here? |
| 01:32.29 | carrett | i wanted to be a developer but...the policy...it's too long!! |
| 01:32.34 | The_Vulture | sil^: while the initial upgrade might be rather large, keeping side up to date (which is a must, even if it's just on a dial up connection) is still reasonably substantial |
| 01:32.59 | The_Vulture | if you just keep up with debian-security-announce, even that would start to be a bit of a pain on dial-up |
| 01:33.03 | greycat | carrett: being able to express complex concepts in 120 kilobyte e-mail messages and develop flame wars over them is essential to being a DD. |
| 01:33.17 | sil^ | The_Vulture, true enough. Maybe I'll step it back to stable. |
| 01:33.20 | greycat | carrett: so if something as small as the policy document turns you off, you're disqualified :) |
| 01:33.22 | docgnome | Also, everyone keeps sayng answer no to the frame buffer question... but I don't ever see a question about frame buffers. Ever. |
| 01:33.35 | nvz | docgnome: AOC International; AOC SPECTRUM 5Glr & 5GlrA & 5Glr+ & 5GlrA+; AOC569E; 30.0-69.0; 50.0 |
| 01:33.43 | carrett | greycat: hehe. guess so. :) i don't mind being a mere user. i have other things to do (like hang out on IRC) |
| 01:33.49 | *** part/#debian jcurry (~jcurry@mcha-aj119.taconic.net) |
| 01:34.03 | nvz | docgnome: thats because voltagex isnt telling you to configure the debian way |
| 01:34.07 | voltagex | greycat: isn't there an unofficial repository you can submit to without being an under-oath developer? |
| 01:34.08 | peterS | docgnome: umm. nvz means horizontal refresh is 30-69 kHz. vertical refresh probably doesn't matter |
| 01:34.09 | \amethyst | carrett: You can still use the sponsorship process to make packages, btw |
| 01:34.17 | *** join/#debian TurKiyeLi (~ZoMBi@213.172.80.133) |
| 01:34.22 | greycat | voltagex: your personal web space. |
| 01:34.22 | *** join/#debian larsie (~larsie@terror.sintrax.net) |
| 01:34.24 | \amethyst | carrett: i.e., get a DD to sponsor your package |
| 01:34.26 | greycat | !safecat |
| 01:34.26 | dpkg | [safecat] a program for delivering messages to maildir format mailboxes. But the Debian maintainer is an idiot. greycat's fixed version of safecat is at <http://wooledge.org/~greg/safecat/>. |
| 01:34.32 | greycat | like that. :) |
| 01:34.33 | peterS | docgnome: because with modern monitors, vertical refresh is almost never a limiting factor |
| 01:34.38 | carrett | \amethyst: oh yeah... thanks |
| 01:34.44 | voltagex | greycat: ... |
| 01:34.47 | carrett | \amethyst: i think someone's working to get naim packaged though |
| 01:34.48 | sil^ | Cheers for the suggestions. |
| 01:34.57 | ac1d | hello |
| 01:35.05 | ac1d | how do i disable rivafb from loading on startup |
| 01:35.07 | carrett | !factinfo safecat |
| 01:35.07 | dpkg | safecat -- created by greycat <rfc1413@wooledge.org> at Tue Nov 18 00:27:30 2003 (236 days); it has been requested 7 times, last by greycat, 41s ago. |
| 01:35.13 | carrett | hehe |
| 01:35.14 | *** join/#debian colonel_panik (~dmesg@bgp924602bgs.brghtn01.mi.comcast.net) |
| 01:35.19 | nvz | peterS: I for one have all NEC Multisyncs, out of the trash.. so not everyone has modern monitors ;) |
| 01:35.20 | *** join/#debian Jazza (Jazza@c158.74.135.144.satellite.bigpond.com) |
| 01:35.52 | peterS | nvz: so you're saying sometimes the horizontal sync rates would let you go past say 85 Hz but the vertical only goes to 85 Hz, or something? that's unusual indeed |
| 01:35.55 | nvz | I got the NEC Multisync 3fgx on here, and the 6FG on the other system right now |
| 01:36.11 | *** join/#debian elephantman (martin@APuteaux-102-1-3-211.w193-253.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 01:36.13 | nvz | peterS: I really dont know, I am just saying not everyone is 'modern' |
| 01:36.13 | *** join/#debian Nigel_ (NigelJ@nigel.registered) |
| 01:36.44 | nvz | peterS: some of us are using 2nd hand refurbished rubbish |
| 01:36.58 | peterS | nvz: ok, point taken. I'd still bet serious money that at real resolutions like 800x600+, the 69 kHz is more of a limitation than whatever his max vertical Hz is |
| 01:37.15 | *** join/#debian ScHooL (BLONDGIRL@213.153.221.21) |
| 01:37.19 | *** join/#debian danielon (~root@CM-mapu2-103-168.cm.vtr.net) |
| 01:37.33 | voltagex | !voltagex |
| 01:37.33 | larsie | Okey. I've tried ifconfig eth1 up. This failed for the fifth time. I've tried different firmware, and placed it in /usr/lib/hotplug/firmware, and get the same error every time. I'm running 2.6.7, with a Zyxel ZyAir g-300 card. It should be a prisme Duette card. |
| 01:37.34 | dpkg | [voltagex] the n00b who thinks he's not |
| 01:37.41 | voltagex | bwahahahahaha |
| 01:37.43 | *** join/#debian Pretty18f (~NaSIr@62.162.19.120) |
| 01:37.44 | larsie | Can anyone help me to determine my error? |
| 01:37.53 | nvz | voltagex: /msg dpkg person |
| 01:38.06 | *** join/#debian BreaK (Zeyna__@82.135.177.233) |
| 01:38.33 | peterS | I don't know about wireless cards, but don't you need iwconfig as well as ifconfig? |
| 01:39.30 | larsie | prism54: request_firmware() failed for 'isl3890' |
| 01:39.32 | larsie | eth1: could not upload firmware ('isl3890') |
| 01:39.46 | larsie | If the eth1 won't come up, there's no need for iwconfig :-) |
| 01:39.47 | docgnome | Hrm... What is XKB and how do I have any clue if I want to select additional options for it. |
| 01:39.55 | greycat | X KeyBoard stuff. |
| 01:39.59 | docgnome | ah. |
| 01:40.10 | peterS | docgnome: you generally want it, although it often doesn't matter |
| 01:40.14 | greycat | !WIDHE |
| 01:40.15 | dpkg | When In Doubt, Hit Enter |
| 01:40.40 | voltagex | someone asked this question and there was no answer (I want to know too!): is there any way of getting a list of pacakges installed on a Debian box and installing those same packages on another box? |
| 01:40.47 | \amethyst | docgnome: If you're using gnome, look under `layouts' and `layout options' in the `Keyboard' control center applet |
| 01:41.04 | walnuck | voltagex: y, use the package selection arguments with dpkg |
| 01:41.07 | peterS | voltagex: look into 'dpkg --get-selections', 'dpkg --set-selections' and 'apt-get dselect-upgrade' |
| 01:41.08 | \amethyst | docgnome: Or edit your XF86Config-4 |
| 01:41.09 | nvz | does the newbie cheer "WIDHE RTFM STFU w00t!" |
| 01:41.21 | chifinet | how do i get from 2.4.24 to 2.4.26? |
| 01:41.22 | *** join/#debian alexscott (~alexscott@m200.net81-67-220.noos.fr) |
| 01:41.33 | *** join/#debian Leo (~leo@168-226-9-165.speedy.com.ar) |
| 01:41.40 | peterS | chifinet: how did you get to 2.4.24? |
| 01:41.44 | voltagex | chifinet: apt-get :D |
| 01:41.46 | snowrichard | wonder if xxx.com is his website |
| 01:41.56 | supxr | is there a way to manually start a screensaver ? |
| 01:42.04 | voltagex | look into 'dpkg --get-selections', 'dpkg --set-selections' and 'apt-get dselect-upgrade' |
| 01:42.06 | chifinet | peterS, knoppix hdinstall |
| 01:42.07 | voltagex | wtf |
| 01:42.07 | \amethyst | supxr: Are you using xscreensaver? |
| 01:42.08 | nvz | supxr: xscreensaver-command -activate |
| 01:42.09 | voltagex | copy and paste |
| 01:42.10 | *** join/#debian Seb (~Seb@adsl-67-117-150-188.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 01:42.13 | greycat | chifinet: ask #knoppix |
| 01:42.14 | peterS | snowrichard: nah, xxx.com is a website about a movie from last year |
| 01:42.19 | supxr | after 10 minutes or so of idle, my screen just goes completely blank |
| 01:42.24 | supxr | is there a way to start that ? |
| 01:42.28 | supxr | console |
| 01:42.30 | voltagex | !moron me |
| 01:42.32 | dpkg | voltagex: You are moron #31 |
| 01:42.38 | docgnome | nvs: Yeah.... I'm still getting the same error. and... I still didn't see anything about frame buffers. :-\ |
| 01:42.40 | greycat | supxr: man setterm |
| 01:42.45 | nvz | supxr: thats controlled by setterm change the time |
| 01:43.06 | nvz | supxr: setterm -blank 0, turns it off |
| 01:43.13 | supxr | sweet |
| 01:43.18 | supxr | what about changing the resolution of my console ? |
| 01:43.18 | *** join/#debian ding (~ding@pcp06953945pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net) |
| 01:43.26 | *** part/#debian snowrichard (richard@adsl-068-209-159-248.sip.shv.bellsouth.net) |
| 01:43.27 | walnuck | voltagex: what the hell was that? |
| 01:43.34 | nvz | supxr: requires framebuffer AFAIK |
| 01:43.44 | greycat | no, there's VGA hacks |
| 01:43.47 | peterS | supxr: apt-get install svgatextmode |
| 01:43.49 | nvz | really? |
| 01:43.51 | [ucp]deadline | HI, <whats the command for a frsh installed debian to apt-get and install a xserver?> |
| 01:44.10 | peterS | nvz: svgatextmode, for the chipsets it supports in something other than vga compatibility mode, is awesome |
| 01:44.20 | \amethyst | [ucp]deadline: the package you want is probably x-window-system |
| 01:44.21 | nvz | hmm |
| 01:44.24 | docgnome | [ucp]deadline: apt-get insall x-window-system |
| 01:44.29 | [ucp]deadline | ok thx |
| 01:44.42 | nvz | peterS: I dont think its for me.. I've been on linux for years and still cant understand fonts. |
| 01:44.46 | voltagex | walnuck: accidentally copynpasted some stuff from the chan back into the chan... |
| 01:44.47 | peterS | nvz: bit of a bear to set up, but the result is *so* worth it |
| 01:44.49 | *** join/#debian tsocks (~pppd@200.55.154.78) |
| 01:45.08 | nvz | I changed my gtk1.2 fonts one time.. I was proud.. |
| 01:45.10 | walnuck | nvz: i agree, fonts is mysterious and thought provoking |
| 01:45.12 | Nigel_ | whats the advantage of debian over another distro like gentoo or redhat? |
| 01:45.17 | greycat | !why debian |
| 01:45.17 | dpkg | http://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian or at http://snowcrash.tdyc.com/articles/imoore2.html or at http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reviews/2204/1/ or http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/talks/why_debian/ |
| 01:45.19 | chifinet | voltagex, apt-get what? |
| 01:45.34 | *** join/#debian fireydeviant (~fireydevi@rdu168-191-142.nc.rr.com) |
| 01:45.34 | walnuck | Nigel_: gentoo and redhat people want our apt |
| 01:45.44 | peterS | Nigel_: no advantages. we are all just lemmings left over from the pre-gentoo era when debian was seen as the 'cool hacker distro' |
| 01:45.46 | *** part/#debian fireydeviant (~fireydevi@rdu168-191-142.nc.rr.com) |
| 01:45.55 | bob2 | UltraSub: /usr/share/doc/memtest86/ |
| 01:46.13 | greycat | bob2: you're 55 minutes lagged. |
| 01:46.13 | nvz | fonts should be a simple thing, I dont know why in linux there cant be some universal font management, rather than every single program and library having its own fonts, like I can adjust the fonts for a program, then have it popup a file dialog that has completly different fonts |
| 01:46.14 | thomas_adam | The_Vulture: You cheat -- you can fly. |
| 01:46.16 | walnuck | Nigel_: apt is ours and so is dpkg |
| 01:46.19 | chifinet | i am guessing hostap drivers for 2.4.26 wouldn't work on 2.4.24 right? |
| 01:46.19 | bob2 | oops |
| 01:46.21 | peterS | err ... The_Vulture |
| 01:46.23 | bob2 | greycat: yes |
| 01:46.26 | bob2 | damn scroll up |
| 01:46.28 | The_Vulture | thomas_adam: ;) |
| 01:46.29 | helix | crap |
| 01:46.30 | bob2 | chifinet: you need to rebulid it |
| 01:46.40 | The_Vulture | a vulture that is a lemming.. I think that's a conflict of interest |
| 01:46.45 | [ucp]deadline | docgnome:what do i have to do when it finished installing? |
| 01:46.48 | peterS | The_Vulture: yeah, probably |
| 01:46.49 | bob2 | nvz: it's called "fontconfig" |
| 01:46.53 | nvz | if you catch a firefox, torture it for me |
| 01:46.58 | supxr | nvz setterm -blank 1 or 0 doesn't work |
| 01:47.02 | thomas_adam | throw water over it. |
| 01:47.14 | nvz | supxr: -blank 0 disables blanking |
| 01:47.15 | voltagex | chifinet: apt-get the debian 2.4.26 kernel image |
| 01:47.28 | nvz | supxr: 1 I figure means 1 minute, read the manpage |
| 01:47.30 | voltagex | thomas_adam: get any sleep at all? |
| 01:47.35 | supxr | i want to enable it |
| 01:47.35 | supxr | ok |
| 01:47.40 | thomas_adam | voltagex: ~3 hours.. |
| 01:47.55 | helix | hmm. |
| 01:47.59 | voltagex | thomas_adam: me - ~5 hours - you cursed me!! |
| 01:48.02 | helix | konquerer is nothing short of PURE EVIL |
| 01:48.12 | nvz | bob2: oh yeah? so if I am looking at some ugly fonts and I run fontconfig it will just hook me up? |
| 01:48.12 | voltagex | helix: why? |
| 01:48.16 | greycat | helix: no, Javascript it pure evil. |
| 01:48.23 | helix | does anyone know why, if i have a keybinding for mozilla-firefox, konquerer would be starting instead? |
| 01:48.28 | greycat | konqueror has non-JS features, so it's watered down evil |
| 01:48.41 | docgnome | Hrm... when I run startx i get "(EE) RADEON(0): no valid modes found (EE) Screen(s) found, but none have a useable configureation" I've tried putting in the v and h refresh rates manually... and that hasn't helped. |
| 01:48.49 | helix | greycat: konq has taken over my desktop for some reason |
| 01:48.52 | helix | i'm utterly confused |
| 01:48.58 | *** join/#debian peter5 (~peterS~@adsl-66-138-125-191.dsl.wcfltx.swbell.net) |
| 01:48.59 | docgnome | [ucp]deadline: to start it up you mean? |
| 01:49.02 | thomas_adam | helix: It happens. |
| 01:49.05 | Kraig | hi all, i installed beep, but it still can't beep (or at least i can't hear it), so, i was looking at xset values and everything seems to be ok, is there another thing i should check out? |
| 01:49.07 | helix | it shouldn't |
| 01:49.08 | nvz | helix: can you give any more clues? like what you are using for keybindings or what wm you have? |
| 01:49.10 | The_Vulture | helix: Probably a sign of the apocolypse. |
| 01:49.15 | nvz | heh |
| 01:49.16 | [ucp]deadline | docgnome:yes |
| 01:49.17 | docgnome | [ucp]deadline: startx |
| 01:49.17 | *** join/#debian LeE (~uvey-Kiz@62.114.22.77) |
| 01:49.19 | [ucp]deadline | and config |
| 01:49.22 | [ucp]deadline | ok |
| 01:49.23 | Justin | !wayttd Kraig |
| 01:49.23 | dpkg | What Are You Trying To Do, Kraig? |
| 01:49.25 | thomas_adam | Kraig: you didn't cpmpile PC support for your speaker inot the kenrle. |
| 01:49.28 | *** join/#debian ReNGiN`duShtu (~yoksuLmc@219.95.216.233) |
| 01:49.29 | greycat | The_Vulture: the apocalypse is vaporware. |
| 01:49.30 | helix | wow. what the fucking fuck. |
| 01:49.32 | [ucp]deadline | but i want to use it with flux box |
| 01:49.41 | The_Vulture | s/apoco/apoca/ indeed |
| 01:49.41 | helix | when i try to start firefox from console, konquerer starts! |
| 01:49.46 | The_Vulture | greycat: seems that way |
| 01:49.52 | voltagex | thomas_adam: to the .config! (if you get a chance) |
| 01:50.01 | The_Vulture | helix: time to follow the symlinks.. |
| 01:50.03 | helix | nvz: this is on openbox |
| 01:50.11 | [ucp]deadline | dont i havwe to configure X first |
| 01:50.14 | voltagex | helix: /etc/alternatives maybe? |
| 01:50.22 | Kraig | thomas_adam: well.... i remember hearing the beep sometime ago (maybe two weeks) and i didn't recompile the kernel in that time... |
| 01:50.26 | helix | voltagex: i already changed that |
| 01:50.29 | docgnome | [ucp]deadline: ah. xf86config |
| 01:50.33 | helix | but for some reason... |
| 01:50.38 | nvz | helix: I'd remove konqueror and consider it an improvement ;) but I suppose you have a reason for having konqueror |
| 01:50.40 | helix | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 13 2004-07-10 17:44 /usr/bin/mozilla-firefox -> x-www-browser* |
| 01:50.50 | helix | x-www-browser, of course, points to mozilla-firefox |
| 01:50.54 | [ucp]deadline | docgnome: is it hard to solve? |
| 01:51.05 | docgnome | [ucp]deadline: hard to solve? how do you mean. |
| 01:51.16 | voltagex | round and round the symlinks go! |
| 01:51.18 | greycat | helix: apt-get --reinstall install time |
| 01:51.21 | helix | (#:~)- dpkg --purge konquerer |
| 01:51.21 | helix | dpkg - warning: ignoring request to remove konquerer which isn't installed. |
| 01:51.22 | dpkg | You are moron #40, helix |
| 01:51.23 | helix | ok |
| 01:51.27 | [ucp]deadline | im doing this the first |
| 01:51.28 | helix | what. the. fuck. |
| 01:51.30 | [ucp]deadline | time |
| 01:51.30 | The_Vulture | my mozilla-firefox link goes to "firefox" |
| 01:51.32 | greycat | !comfort helix |
| 01:51.33 | dpkg | There, there, helix. It's OK. I'm here for you. |
| 01:51.34 | helix | is it called something else? |
| 01:51.36 | The_Vulture | how'd you get it going to x-www-browser? |
| 01:51.48 | voltagex | helix: firefox-bin |
| 01:51.52 | greycat | helix: konqueror |
| 01:51.53 | *** join/#debian peter5 (~peterS~@adsl-64-123-113-6.dsl.wchtks.swbell.net) |
| 01:51.53 | nvz | helix: called konqueror not konquerer |
| 01:51.58 | helix | oh |
| 01:52.00 | [ucp]deadline | oh brb configuring.... |
| 01:52.19 | helix | voltagex: gracias |
| 01:52.46 | nvz | damn |
| 01:52.48 | voltagex | helix: errm mucho you're welcome |
| 01:53.01 | Gokee214 | O YA |
| 01:53.14 | Gokee214 | I LOVE VNC THANKS all who halped me |
| 01:53.31 | voltagex | b-but vnc is teh slow! |
| 01:53.36 | nvz | Gokee214: might want to check out rfb too |
| 01:53.37 | cafuego | Gokee214: i told you. |
| 01:53.40 | *** part/#debian Kraig (~KraigE@200.91.70.82) |
| 01:53.42 | nvz | Gokee214: depends on your needs though |
| 01:53.56 | helix | umm |
| 01:54.03 | *** join/#debian DanWSB (~dan@ip68-225-115-204.mc.at.cox.net) |
| 01:54.03 | helix | i can't overwrite the symlink with ln -sf? |
| 01:54.07 | nvz | Gokee214: rfb exports the current display through vnc rather than starting another |
| 01:54.08 | Gokee214 | cafuego, Yes you did |
| 01:54.10 | greycat | you should be able to |
| 01:54.12 | helix | !helixsmite kde |
| 01:54.24 | Gokee214 | hmm ok |
| 01:54.30 | Gokee214 | rfb coming up |
| 01:54.33 | voltagex | WTF @ dpkg ??? |
| 01:54.35 | *** part/#debian gary__ (~gary@CPE-65-28-191-228.neb.rr.com) |
| 01:54.38 | helix | maybe i've forgotten how to make symlinks. |
| 01:54.40 | The_Vulture | voltagex: you'll get used to it |
| 01:54.50 | cafuego | helix: ln -sf file link |
| 01:55.01 | helix | ok, i haven't forgotten then |
| 01:55.02 | nvz | helix: ln [options] <file> <link> |
| 01:55.11 | helix | so what the fuck |
| 01:55.15 | peterS | nvz: that's hard links |
| 01:55.17 | *** join/#debian mozhno (~gary@CPE-65-28-191-228.neb.rr.com) |
| 01:55.22 | peterS | nvz: for symlinks you need to specify -s |
| 01:55.28 | \amethyst | helix: what's the exact command you're using? |
| 01:55.29 | The_Vulture | peterS: well [options] includes -s if you want, presumably.. |
| 01:55.31 | nvz | peterS: thats [options] |
| 01:55.37 | *** join/#debian Reuse (~anderson@200.242.76.17) |
| 01:55.39 | *** part/#debian Reuse (~anderson@200.242.76.17) |
| 01:55.41 | peterS | nvz: yeah, but -s is not optional if you want a symlink |
| 01:55.45 | nvz | heh |
| 01:55.48 | peterS | nvz: which was the topic |
| 01:55.50 | nvz | simple ass |
| 01:56.08 | *** join/#debian kurumin (~kurumin@201.4.134.146) |
| 01:56.11 | voltagex | !topicsmite nvz |
| 01:56.13 | dpkg | And the wrath of /TOPIC descended with terrible fury upon nvz. And all the people marveled, saying, Behold, we too should read the /TOPIC, lest we be stricken. And all the people read the /TOPIC, and went away edified. |
| 01:56.24 | karsten | helix: ln -s <source> <target> |
| 01:56.27 | *** join/#debian knix (~knix@adsl-63-193-210-167.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) |
| 01:56.30 | nvz | I dont have to read the topic I got it logged! hahaha |
| 01:56.52 | voltagex | is the dpkg bot under the GPL> |
| 01:56.53 | voltagex | ? |
| 01:57.00 | The_Vulture | voltagex: blootbot |
| 01:57.02 | *** join/#debian ac1d (~aderkach@ac1d.base.supporter.pdpc) |
| 01:57.08 | Gokee214 | O and BTW is there one of thease things that you can set two computers next to each other and have your cerser go betwene them and stuff? |
| 01:57.11 | nvz | voltagex: apt-cache show blootbot |
| 01:57.16 | ac1d | hello |
| 01:57.18 | ac1d | does anyone here use spymac for their email |
| 01:57.21 | The_Vulture | voltagex: it's a debian package, dunno which license specifically |
| 01:57.27 | bob2 | nvz: duh, no. |
| 01:57.32 | bob2 | !tell nvz about font guide |
| 01:57.39 | voltagex | The_Vulture: I wonder if I can port it to MSN/AIM/Jabber |
| 01:57.41 | *** join/#debian kremlyn (~kremlyn@p27-tnt2.mel.ihug.com.au) |
| 01:57.55 | greycat | you could find the license by starting at packages.debian.org/blootbot |
| 01:57.55 | The_Vulture | voltagex: I'm not sure that makes much sense |
| 01:57.58 | greycat | find the copyright link |
| 01:58.00 | nvz | bob2: yay, some reading material for tomorrow |
| 01:58.13 | nvz | its about time I learn to do fonts |
| 01:58.23 | voltagex | The_Vulture: it does when I'm bored :) |
| 01:58.29 | nvz | thats probably why I now need glasses |
| 01:59.03 | *** join/#debian lba (~xin_is_co@4.242.135.79) |
| 01:59.14 | docgnome | X throws "(EE) RADEON(0): no valid modes found (EE) Screen(s) found, but none have a useable configureation" those errors with I try to run it. not having any luck trying to figure this out so far... |
| 01:59.51 | *** join/#debian Leo (~leo@168-226-9-165.speedy.com.ar) |
| 01:59.51 | \amethyst | docgnome: Look at the X logs and see what the problems with the individual modes were |
| 01:59.55 | [ucp]deadline | docgnome: FATAL ERROR: NO SCREENS FOUND |
| 02:00.03 | cafuego | Das Machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. |
| 02:00.05 | Gokee214 | "<voltagex> b-but vnc is teh slow!" You got a faster one? |
| 02:00.11 | *** join/#debian Hill-o-beans (~Hill-o-be@221.155.144.51) |
| 02:00.21 | docgnome | [ucp]deadline: aye, about the same problem i', having. |
| 02:00.35 | [ucp]deadline | lol |
| 02:00.41 | [ucp]deadline | what did u do? |
| 02:01.04 | helix | i fucking HATE konqueror |
| 02:01.11 | [ucp]deadline | me 2 |
| 02:01.14 | cafuego | docgnome: Did you run dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 and accidentally pick the 'Advanced' option? |
| 02:01.21 | [ucp]deadline | opera browser rules |
| 02:01.23 | Gokee214 | konqueror is not that bad.... |
| 02:01.29 | ac1d | eh |
| 02:01.33 | ac1d | this may be a stupid question |
| 02:01.35 | nvz | kde has made me hate just about everything that starts with a K |
| 02:01.41 | ac1d | but how can i check what app mutt uses to send mail? |
| 02:01.51 | greycat | |
| 02:01.54 | nvz | I guess qt just has that effect on people |
| 02:01.56 | cafuego | nvz: I got that from Knoppix. |
| 02:02.03 | greycat | *grr* |
| 02:02.13 | nvz | cafuego: which uses kde as default desktop ;) |
| 02:02.21 | ac1d | anyone knows? |
| 02:02.25 | The_Vulture | ac1d: whatever mail-transport-agent you have installed.. |
| 02:02.26 | cafuego | ac1d: I imagine it would use /usr/sbin/sendmail |
| 02:02.30 | karsten | nvz: How touching of you. |
| 02:02.35 | The_Vulture | you must have installed one because mutt requires one |
| 02:02.39 | The_Vulture | probably exim |
| 02:02.42 | ac1d | The_Vulture, how can i check which is being used |
| 02:02.52 | docgnome | cafuego: i've been doing xf86config |
| 02:02.53 | ac1d | any specific way, or just guess? |
| 02:03.03 | cafuego | docgnome: Well, there's your mistake. |
| 02:03.04 | *** join/#debian HiDaRK (~hidark@80.28.153.22) |
| 02:03.08 | *** join/#debian kurumin (~kurumin@201.1.147.53) |
| 02:03.10 | voltagex | brb |
| 02:03.14 | docgnome | cafuego: but when i did that whole mess that didn't make a difference |
| 02:03.15 | nvz | docgnome: I told you earlier that voltagex was telling you the wrong way to config, use dpkg-reconfigure |
| 02:03.17 | *** part/#debian voltagex (~voltagex@54.cust23.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au) |
| 02:03.27 | HiDaRK | hi |
| 02:03.32 | docgnome | nvz: Aye, and i tried that too, which didn't make the slightest change. |
| 02:03.35 | kurumin | hi |
| 02:03.55 | cafuego | docgnome: probably because xf86config fuxked up your config file, so the debian app refuses to touch it now. |
| 02:04.01 | The_Vulture | ac1d: dpkg -S /usr/sbin/sendmail might give you a hint |
| 02:04.18 | kurumin | eae |
| 02:04.30 | greycat | The_Vulture: ls -ld /usr/sbin/sendmail might give a better one |
| 02:04.35 | *** join/#debian billguedes (~billguede@200-206-150-179.dsl.telesp.net.br) |
| 02:04.49 | The_Vulture | greycat: true enough (and faster too) |
| 02:04.54 | cafuego | greycat: -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 16K 2004-06-23 07:06 /usr/sbin/sendmail |
| 02:04.59 | cafuego | greycat: Not useful[tm] |
| 02:04.59 | greycat | cafuego: evil. |
| 02:05.05 | *** join/#debian Tzi (~mike@adsl-131-218.swiftdsl.com.au) |
| 02:05.06 | The_Vulture | cafuego: which MTA? |
| 02:05.11 | greycat | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 23 2003-04-11 22:36 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> /var/qmail/bin/sendmail* |
| 02:05.14 | cafuego | The_Vulture: Postfix 2.1 |
| 02:05.17 | nvz | well I think I might just go to sleep |
| 02:05.22 | Tzi | Hi =) Has anyone experienced problems with the new nvidia driver, 1.0-6106, and twinhead? I'm having issues with screen jitter on the external monitor (on my inspiron 8600) |
| 02:05.22 | [ucp]deadline | PLEASE HELP: a new installed xserver fails to start: "no screens found" what can i do? |
| 02:05.31 | greycat | !noscreensfound |
| 02:05.31 | dpkg | noscreensfound is probably dpkg-reconfigure -plow xserver-xfree86 and SAY NO to the framebuffer question If that doesn't work, read /var/log/XFree86.* and see what's wrong. No, really. READ it. I mean it. Really read it. |
| 02:05.35 | cafuego | [ucp]deadline: configure it |
| 02:05.41 | Justin | !tell [ucp]deadline about X problem |
| 02:05.52 | greycat | dpkg, noscreensfound =~ s/question If/question. If/ |
| 02:05.52 | dpkg | OK, greycat |
| 02:05.53 | The_Vulture | cafuego: rightio |
| 02:05.56 | thomas_adam | :| |
| 02:06.05 | cafuego | [ucp]deadline: If you have an ATI card newer then a 9600, you'll need to find out WHY you bought it before checking that X supported it. |
| 02:06.20 | greycat | cafuego: "because it was either that or the nvidia one" |
| 02:06.30 | *** join/#debian wen (~wen@218.16.107.106) |
| 02:06.36 | *** join/#debian humbolt (~konversat@63.130.212.112) |
| 02:06.40 | [ucp]deadline | cafuego: i have a s3 card ina P1 199 MMX machine LOL |
| 02:06.56 | cafuego | !noscreensfound is also See 'supported by'. |
| 02:06.56 | dpkg | cafuego: okay |
| 02:06.56 | greycat | you have an S3 and you can *laugh*. You're insane. In a good way, I think. |
| 02:06.56 | *** join/#debian SimPLaS (~Karizmati@219.95.185.249) |
| 02:07.09 | [ucp]deadline | i am greycat |
| 02:07.18 | [ucp]deadline | had kde runnin on this box |
| 02:07.18 | nvz | greycat: all I got are S3's |
| 02:07.21 | *** join/#debian pAvL0 (~NiLL@cm89178.red.mundo-r.com) |
| 02:07.23 | cafuego | [ucp]deadline: Which S3 card and which version of X? |
| 02:07.26 | pAvL0 | Hi |
| 02:07.32 | docgnome | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:07.34 | [ucp]deadline | cafuego trios3 |
| 02:07.35 | EXterm_wi | look at your kicker |
| 02:07.41 | nvz | but like I say all my shit is refurbished rubbish.. |
| 02:07.44 | greycat | docgnome: www.xfree86.org #ati #xfree86 |
| 02:07.50 | cafuego | !tell docgnome -about supported by |
| 02:07.55 | EXterm_wi | the icon next to your k menu |
| 02:08.03 | pAvL0 | What's the difference between apt-get upgrade & apt-get dist-upgrade |
| 02:08.05 | EXterm_wi | look at the utils section |
| 02:08.09 | karsten | nvz: I consider my shit to be rerubbished furb. |
| 02:08.14 | The_Vulture | pAvL0: RTFM ;) |
| 02:08.16 | nvz | heh |
| 02:08.23 | pAvL0 | i read it |
| 02:08.31 | cafuego | pAvL0: dist-upgrade also pulls in new packages to satisfy depends, 'upgrade' doesn't. |
| 02:08.42 | pAvL0 | ok |
| 02:08.51 | nvz | karsten: shit and stuff are right next to each other in the American English Thesaurus |
| 02:08.56 | cafuego | pAvL0: So 'upgrade' may hold back packages that need a new package to satisfy their depends. |
| 02:09.02 | pAvL0 | what's better to upgrade from woody to sarge ? |
| 02:09.13 | greycat | nvz: dat's wack, and shit. |
| 02:09.15 | cafuego | pAvL0: ALWAYS use dist-upgrade in that case. |
| 02:09.20 | pAvL0 | ok |
| 02:09.22 | pAvL0 | thanks |
| 02:09.28 | pAvL0 | i'm new in debian |
| 02:09.33 | karsten | !n00b |
| 02:09.33 | dpkg | Don't bother telling us you're a "newb" or a "n00b". We can tell. |
| 02:09.34 | cafuego | pAvL0: Note that you can't downgrade. |
| 02:09.46 | pAvL0 | no problem |
| 02:10.02 | nvz | George Carlin said "you ever notice that other peoples stuff is shit, and your shit is _stuff_" |
| 02:10.04 | pAvL0 | i came from bsd |
| 02:10.21 | cafuego | which bsd? a real one or freebsd? |
| 02:10.21 | docgnome | cafuego: Well shit. That blows. I was told it was supported. |
| 02:10.21 | greycat | i came from cincinnati |
| 02:10.37 | pAvL0 | openbsd and freebsd |
| 02:10.45 | cafuego | docgnome: When someone tells you to run 'rm -rf /' as root, do you automagically believe them? ;-) |
| 02:10.45 | nvz | kinda like when he said "Ever notice anyone driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone driving faster than you is a maniac" |
| 02:10.50 | pAvL0 | now i'm playing with debian |
| 02:10.51 | *** join/#debian Nurbs (tom@p50927215.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 02:11.07 | cafuego | docgnome: there *is* an ATI bianry-only driver though. 'fglrx' - you'll want that. |
| 02:11.08 | Gokee214 | does rfb have a web site!!! |
| 02:11.15 | greycat | docgnome: /msg dpkg ati drivers |
| 02:11.16 | cafuego | !fglrx |
| 02:11.16 | dpkg | i heard fglrx is see firegl, or see ati drivers |
| 02:11.18 | pAvL0 | cafuego, rm -rf / is a funny game |
| 02:11.20 | Gokee214 | Google seems at a loss |
| 02:11.21 | pAvL0 | cof cof |
| 02:11.31 | nvz | Gokee214: why? |
| 02:11.44 | cafuego | pAvL0: if you hit ctrl-c before it gets to /bin you can fix it without a rescue disk ;-) |
| 02:11.47 | nvz | Gokee214: install the package, read the docs I am sure it gives some info about who made it |
| 02:11.47 | [ucp]deadline | dpkg: im prompted now to enter a video cards bus identifier |
| 02:11.47 | dpkg | [ucp]deadline: I give up, what is it? |
| 02:11.56 | greycat | !bus id |
| 02:11.56 | dpkg | If you're asking about Bus ID, chances are you need to get a kernel that has agpgart support for your video chipset. Usually this means 2.4.x, but 2.2.25 also has some. When dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 asks you for your Bus ID, if you use x86 (meaning a PC), just leave it blank. |
| 02:11.56 | cafuego | [ucp]deadline: just hit return |
| 02:12.02 | Gokee214 | I got the packeg |
| 02:12.04 | [ucp]deadline | ok |
| 02:12.10 | Gokee214 | No docs with it :( |
| 02:12.22 | [ucp]deadline | how u can type that fast lol |
| 02:12.30 | nvz | Gokee214: hmm. |
| 02:12.33 | greycat | !typing too damn fast |
| 02:12.33 | dpkg | i guess typing too damn fast is what greycat does |
| 02:12.37 | pAvL0 | cafuego, i known a friend that delete all the HDD |
| 02:12.48 | pAvL0 | at a prodution server |
| 02:12.53 | cafuego | pAvL0: Did you tell him to stick with Windows? |
| 02:12.54 | pAvL0 | X)) |
| 02:13.04 | Gokee214 | At lest if its called rfbcat thats the packege I have |
| 02:13.25 | *** join/#debian prahal (prahal@AToulouse-152-1-44-128.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 02:13.32 | *** join/#debian asLI03`very`bad (java@benax3-066.dialup.optusnet.com.au) |
| 02:13.48 | Gokee214 | rfb - VNC Server for X11 - exports current display |
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| 02:13.50 | cafuego | greycat: You know about two lumps? |
| 02:13.55 | Gokee214 | Thats the one I want |
| 02:14.03 | Justin | Gokee214: apt-cache search vnc server |
| 02:14.07 | Gokee214 | but rfb is just vnc? |
| 02:14.08 | greycat | cafuego: um... no? |
| 02:14.20 | cafuego | greycat: http://twolumps.keenspace.com/ |
| 02:14.36 | Justin | the rfb package is shit |
| 02:14.37 | nvz | Gokee214: vncserver starts a new X session, rfb uses the current one |
| 02:14.41 | Justin | !+info x11vnc |
| 02:14.47 | dpkg | x11vnc: (A VNC server which uses your current X11 session), section x11, is optional. Version: 0.6-2 (sid), Packaged size: 85 kB, Installed size: 193 kB |
| 02:14.51 | Gokee214 | O cool |
| 02:14.58 | tsocks | hello |
| 02:15.10 | *** join/#debian simmerz (~tom@iitempest.demon.co.uk) |
| 02:15.11 | Justin | the rfb package shouldn't even be called rfb, as that is not what the program is called. |
| 02:15.24 | tsocks | When I'm patching my kernel (patch-2.6.7), it says: File to patch: |
| 02:15.27 | wen | #join debian-boot |
| 02:15.28 | Gokee214 | I want one that will act as if your computer has two screens |
| 02:15.34 | *** join/#debian GreeN (~BATsheBA@p182.net220216007.tnc.ne.jp) |
| 02:15.35 | greycat | tsocks: then you gave the wrong command. |
| 02:15.40 | tsocks | Whan can I write there ? |
| 02:15.49 | greycat | tsocks: or you're in the wrong place. Or your kernel sources aren't 2.6.6. |
| 02:15.51 | Gokee214 | (I have two computers sitting right next to each other) |
| 02:15.51 | nvz | Gokee214: if you want to use VNC to show someone else your screen, you want to export the current display, if you just want someone to use your computer at the same time as you, without interrupting you, then you want to start a new session |
| 02:16.11 | cafuego | Gokee214: get a decent gfx card and a second screen <heh> |
| 02:16.19 | tsocks | greycat: my kernel-source is 2.6.4 and I want to patch for 2.6.7 ... is it okey ? |
| 02:16.34 | nvz | Justin: the program was x0rfbserver or something IIRC |
| 02:16.47 | simmerz | Are there any good howtos on Exim 4? I'm trying to get a setup working without having to add system users, where some users accept all mail to a given domain, and others only get emails to certain addresses at a domain, with the remainder going to a designated user. Can anyone help at all? |
| 02:16.49 | greycat | tsocks: no. |
| 02:17.05 | tsocks | greycat: :(( okey .... |
| 02:17.16 | Gokee214 | I have two computers sitting right next to each other I have two screens and I want them to work both from my fast computer and look like its one (my brother saw this dimistrated at his callige) |
| 02:17.17 | *** part/#debian wen (~wen@218.16.107.106) |
| 02:17.37 | greycat | !l33t mail |
| 02:17.37 | dpkg | <newbie> How do I configure my mail system to have users that aren't in /etc/passwd? Help me, I'm too lame to set their shell to /bin/false!!!!! |
| 02:17.50 | Gokee214 | Anyone know how to do this? |
| 02:18.07 | *** join/#debian gokcen___ (~java@81.213.168.251) |
| 02:18.32 | nvz | Gokee214: your example is vague and uneducated.. I have several computers here and I network them in many ways. |
| 02:18.40 | greycat | Gokee214: /msg dpkg xdmcp |
| 02:18.56 | simmerz | dpkg > I'd just like to read through a howto if there's one available. Trying to learn, and yes, I am relatively a newbie. I can do the basics, but this is currently beyond me |
| 02:18.56 | dpkg | I think you lost me on that one, simmerz |
| 02:19.01 | nvz | Gokee214: theres NFS, SMB, NAS, VNC, SSH .. tons of things you can do |
| 02:19.19 | jetscreamer | heh somebody tell him it's a bot |
| 02:19.41 | jetscreamer | btw it's a bot |
| 02:19.47 | simmerz | jet > dpkg? |
| 02:19.50 | Gokee214 | Who |
| 02:19.51 | jetscreamer | yeah |
| 02:19.54 | simmerz | oh |
| 02:19.57 | simmerz | :( |
| 02:19.59 | larsie | hehe |
| 02:19.59 | Gokee214 | Ya I know that |
| 02:20.06 | jetscreamer | nolan, :) it's an intelligent bot |
| 02:20.21 | jetscreamer | make that no, <--comma |
| 02:20.23 | *** join/#debian VoltageX (~voltagex@54.cust23.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au) |
| 02:20.23 | nvz | dpkg botsnack |
| 02:20.24 | dpkg | thanks, nvz |
| 02:20.26 | *** join/#debian iNs (~DonaTeLLo@219.95.199.79) |
| 02:20.27 | Gokee214 | nvz, I want it to look like I have dule head |
| 02:20.31 | jetscreamer | dual |
| 02:20.38 | *** join/#debian NeoRayzor2 (~chatzilla@201.248.10.25) |
| 02:20.40 | Gokee214 | dual* |
| 02:20.50 | nvz | Gokee214: you do have a dual head.. looking pretty good.. now if you had only one, that might be hard |
| 02:21.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 645] by debhelper |
| 02:21.04 | *** mode/#debian [-bbb freebsd)!*@* (2004/06/22!*@* *!*@22.43)] by Rez |
| 02:21.08 | simmerz | ok, so given that dpkg is a bot and can't actually help, does anyone else know of a good Exim 4 howto? |
| 02:21.26 | nvz | Gokee214: you should try learning about the various networking services and learn to do something really usefull instead of trying to impress lame windows users ;) |
| 02:21.27 | Gokee214 | nvz, I have two computers sitting inf front of me with two screens |
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| 02:21.46 | VoltageX | simmerz: google is your friend |
| 02:21.57 | Gokee214 | nvz, I don`t want to impress anyone! |
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| 02:22.09 | simmerz | yeah, at the moment, its a pain in the butt friend |
| 02:22.10 | Gokee214 | I want to use it like dual head |
| 02:22.20 | VoltageX | !googlesmite simmerz |
| 02:22.23 | *** join/#debian pgp (~pgp@71-53-89.adsl.terra.cl) |
| 02:22.31 | OhMyAchingGut | dualhead is good stuff |
| 02:22.45 | Gokee214 | Yes it is |
| 02:22.46 | greycat | lorez is higher now? |
| 02:22.58 | jetscreamer | it wouldn't be "and thus foundeth"... |
| 02:23.04 | simmerz | Voltage > google didn't find the answer |
| 02:23.07 | Rez | greycat: bad joke |
| 02:23.08 | jetscreamer | s/it wouldn't be/wouldn't it be |
| 02:23.18 | nvz | Rez: I didnt even get it ;) |
| 02:23.37 | *** join/#debian wen (~wen@218.16.107.106) |
| 02:23.40 | jetscreamer | simmerz, tldp.org maybe |
| 02:23.43 | Gokee214 | So does anyone know of something that will make my two computers act like one with dualhead? |
| 02:23.46 | *** join/#debian ummDuh (~dur@Wireless-AM1.unco.edu) |
| 02:23.52 | VoltageX | simmerz: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22exim%22+howto&sourceid=firefox&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 |
| 02:23.53 | greycat | dpkg CMD: googlesmite (.*?) =~ s/foundeth/thus did find/ |
| 02:23.53 | dpkg | greycat: OK |
| 02:24.05 | NeoRayzor2 | Hi everyone |
| 02:24.12 | nvz | Gokee214: 22:25:07 greycat | Gokee214: /msg dpkg xdmcp |
| 02:24.18 | jetscreamer | Gokee214 check into xcmp(i think) or buy a kvm |
| 02:24.18 | ummDuh | ehm. hello. does anyone here know how to do screen captures for videos in xmms or aviplay? |
| 02:24.24 | Rez | Gokee213: x2x? or remove the video card from one and insert it into the other |
| 02:24.25 | Gokee214 | OK |
| 02:24.30 | *** join/#debian cdevidal (~cdevidal@ip-66-80-152-31.atl.megapath.net) |
| 02:24.31 | *** mode/#debian [+o greycat] by ChanServ |
| 02:24.33 | OhMyAchingGut | Gokee214, you want to access 2 seperate systems with one mouse, one keyboard, and two monitors? |
| 02:24.39 | VoltageX | greycat: foundeth was funnier... |
| 02:24.39 | Gokee214 | Yes |
| 02:24.41 | *** mode/#debian [-b *!*@kruzi.staff.freenode] by greycat |
| 02:24.50 | *** mode/#debian [-o greycat] by greycat |
| 02:24.54 | Gokee214 | I do OhMyAchingGut |
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| 02:25.01 | greycat | at least he asked politely |
| 02:25.16 | VoltageX | Gokee: there's hardware that can do that |
| 02:25.38 | simmerz | Voltage > I dont want mailscanner, clamav, etc. Just pure and simple Exim |
| 02:25.39 | *** join/#debian docgnome (~stepoff@d33-244.rb.gh.centurytel.net) |
| 02:25.41 | Gokee214 | I don`t need hardware |
| 02:25.43 | OhMyAchingGut | i'm not sure why you would want to do that...do you just want to be able to utilize the extra proccessor power? |
| 02:25.50 | thomas_adam | OhMyAchingGut: get some settlers. |
| 02:25.51 | Gokee214 | No |
| 02:25.52 | cdevidal | I created a debootstrap chroot then copied the files over the real system.. its working great except no /etc/shadow. Ideas? |
| 02:25.55 | simmerz | the Exim specifications on exim.org are a nightmare to understand |
| 02:25.59 | Gokee214 | Just use one proseser |
| 02:26.08 | Gokee214 | But have more screen space |
| 02:26.10 | VoltageX | simmerz: find an #exim channel maybe? |
| 02:26.14 | thomas_adam | cdevidal: err, why did you not just create the files by running the prorams in the chroot? |
| 02:26.20 | OhMyAchingGut | Gokee214, ok, you don't need or want two computers for that |
| 02:26.26 | cdevidal | thomas_adam, don't understand your question |
| 02:26.35 | OhMyAchingGut | Gokee214, xinerama |
| 02:26.39 | cdevidal | thomas_adam, have you ever used debootstrap |
| 02:26.40 | OhMyAchingGut | multi-head for linux |
| 02:26.48 | nvz | Gokee214: you can have probably 256 Virtual Consoles, and who knows how many windows and workspaces in X, and you need more screen space? |
| 02:26.55 | thomas_adam | cdevidal: Yes. |
| 02:26.56 | nvz | not to mention things like screen. |
| 02:27.02 | Gokee214 | OhMyAchingGut, I don`t want to buy more stuff I have an old computer with a video card and a extra moniter\ |
| 02:27.04 | cdevidal | Gokee214, two different systems, 2 montitors, one keyboard, one mouse, correct? |
| 02:27.11 | VoltageX | nvz: screen is scary! |
| 02:27.16 | simmerz | Voltage > they're no help at all. Stupidly enough, I've generally found the people in #debian to be far more helpful than any of the other *relevant* channels I've ever tried |
| 02:27.17 | OhMyAchingGut | nvz, for certain applications multihead is useful. particularly graphics and audio |
| 02:27.27 | nevyn | and programming |
| 02:27.29 | OhMyAchingGut | Gokee214, thats software |
| 02:27.35 | nvz | VoltageX: screen is awesome. |
| 02:27.36 | cdevidal | thomas_adam, then how do you create /etc/shadow |
| 02:27.38 | nevyn | documentation on one screen code on the other. |
| 02:27.41 | OhMyAchingGut | Gokee214, google xinerama |
| 02:27.44 | Gokee214 | cdevidal, Yes |
| 02:27.47 | thomas_adam | cdevidal: run base-config |
| 02:27.48 | VoltageX | simmerz: I'm out of ideas |
| 02:27.54 | cdevidal | thomas_adam, ahh |
| 02:28.00 | VoltageX | nvz: is there a howto on getting it running? |
| 02:28.01 | OhMyAchingGut | Gokee214, put two videocards in one machine, plug in a seerate monitor to each card |
| 02:28.09 | simmerz | Voltage > cheers anyway |
| 02:28.13 | Gokee214 | I don`t want to buy more stuff |
| 02:28.20 | nvz | VoltageX: I generally just type screen, and go |
| 02:28.31 | OhMyAchingGut | Gokee214, !?!? that does what you want with exactly what you have |
| 02:28.34 | *** join/#debian astronut (~astronut@sfnc-162-39-87-142.netdialus.com) |
| 02:28.37 | astronut | !tell me about holding |
| 02:28.40 | cdevidal | thomas_adam, that's working great, thanks! |
| 02:28.45 | Gokee214 | All look into xinerama |
| 02:28.50 | Gokee214 | That sounds good |
| 02:28.50 | OhMyAchingGut | do that |
| 02:28.59 | Gokee214 | Thanks |
| 02:29.03 | *** join/#debian kbr (~someone@d207-6-210-229.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 02:29.09 | OhMyAchingGut | incidently, its even easier to do under windows, should you be dual-booting |
| 02:29.25 | cdevidal | thomas_adam, I like using debootstrap for configuring systems before I'm ready for the hardware :) |
| 02:29.29 | cdevidal | you? |
| 02:29.41 | thomas_adam | cdevidal: I just use it to install systems as and when.... |
| 02:29.53 | *** part/#debian simmerz (~tom@iitempest.demon.co.uk) |
| 02:29.54 | astronut | !tell me about hold |
| 02:29.58 | Gokee214 | mmm cool But I hate windows and only need screen space for my video editer that runs on linux.... |
| 02:30.05 | *** join/#debian edtux (~edtux@200165239175.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 02:30.19 | nvz | VoltageX: Ctrl+A is the magic command noted as C-a which for sake of simplicity just calls it to attention for a command. and basic commands are like C-a c to create a window, C-a # (where # is a window numer) to switch, C-a x, to lock screen, C-a [, copies, C-a ], pastes .. its all in the manpage |
| 02:30.22 | OhMyAchingGut | Gokee214, just thought i would mention it |
| 02:30.24 | *** part/#debian astronut (~astronut@sfnc-162-39-87-142.netdialus.com) |
| 02:30.36 | cdevidal | thomas_adam, this is the first time I've actually placed the files on a live system... I've built them plenty of times but never actually used them live :) Hence the question |
| 02:30.43 | Gokee214 | OhMyAchingGut, Yes |
| 02:30.48 | thomas_adam | cdevidal: No worries. :) |
| 02:31.05 | cdevidal | :) |
| 02:31.08 | Gokee214 | OhMyAchingGut, You would not know a lot obout windows would you? |
| 02:31.13 | edtux | hello |
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| 02:31.37 | OhMyAchingGut | Gokee214, i have a windows system running dual-head about 3-feet away, for graphics |
| 02:31.40 | nvz | I am using Ion right now so I dont need screen.. Ion for me is just like screen, I've actually configured it to behave the same. |
| 02:31.47 | OhMyAchingGut | it was mindlessly easy to setup |
| 02:31.56 | VoltageX | nvz: what about multiuser sessions? |
| 02:31.58 | Gokee214 | OhMyAchingGut, My win98 is having a prob on the internet nothing can get the internet exept ping in the consolf |
| 02:32.18 | nvz | VoltageX: multiuser sessions? I have no idea what you mean |
| 02:32.29 | Rez | Gokee214: that's really off topic here |
| 02:32.34 | server | hi |
| 02:32.51 | VoltageX | nvz: there's a way to share console sessions over ssh or something |
| 02:33.14 | Gokee214 | hmmm yes it is but I thought OhMyAchingGut might be able to shed some light on it for me |
| 02:33.35 | nvz | VoltageX: ok, well say for example I am running my IRC client IRSSI inside screen right now, and I come to your house and ssh into my box, I can screen -rd and remotely detach screen and reattach it from ssh |
| 02:33.39 | *** join/#debian efb (~efb@200165169183.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 02:34.15 | VoltageX | nvz: sounds like I'll be doing some experimentation |
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| 02:34.22 | t-jack | Hornet's nest of chaotic dependencies. Well, there are long stretches of time where Sid gives no trouble, but it ain't called Unstable for nothing. Too easy, sometimes, though, to forget. |
| 02:34.25 | greycat | nvz: or just screen -x it |
| 02:34.25 | OhMyAchingGut | yeah, screen is fun if you know how to use it |
| 02:34.29 | efb | hi, anyone knows any software to catalog books/magazines/papers/etc? i'd like to be able to set keywords, description, author information etc for each item |
| 02:34.35 | nvz | VoltageX: nice thing about screen is it can be detached 'C-a d' and reattached 'screen -r' so if I run it in X and X dies, all apps in screen are safe, because screen wont die, it will just detach |
| 02:34.46 | OhMyAchingGut | efb, theres something called alexandria or soemthing like that |
| 02:34.46 | *** join/#debian topo (~topo@200.80.130.130) |
| 02:34.57 | OhMyAchingGut | efb, i was looking for the same thing on freshmeat a few days ago |
| 02:35.09 | t-jack | Bah. |
| 02:35.09 | VoltageX | speaking of ssh, how can I improve its performance over low bandwith connections? |
| 02:35.15 | OhMyAchingGut | efb, there were a half dozen options. the alexandria one i read good things about in linuxjournal |
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| 02:35.33 | nvz | VoltageX: thats why I _always_ run 'screen irssi' when I use IRC, because I can do all sorts of things on my pc and be sure that screen will keep my IRC connection alive |
| 02:35.35 | efb | VoltageX, "alias ssh=telnet" :) |
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| 02:35.41 | enntee | Is there any way to get nice fonts for qt when you don't have kde installed and primarily use gnome? |
| 02:35.47 | efb | OhMyAchingGut, thanks, i'll look for it |
| 02:35.49 | peterS | VoltageX: 'ssh -C' helps a lot. compression. |
| 02:35.49 | greycat | screen++ |
| 02:35.50 | *** join/#debian YeLKeN (~YeN@219.95.99.250) |
| 02:36.00 | OhMyAchingGut | i run x in screen |
| 02:36.05 | nvz | OhMyAchingGut: liar |
| 02:36.06 | thomas_adam | OhMyAchingGut: No. |
| 02:36.08 | peterS | nvz: what? not 'screen -S irc irssi'? |
| 02:36.15 | *** part/#debian Tzi (~mike@adsl-131-218.swiftdsl.com.au) |
| 02:36.15 | mwilson | enntee: What does the one have to do with the other? |
| 02:36.28 | thomas_adam | OhMyAchingGut: No you don't. |
| 02:36.28 | greycat | X on an SDL/aalib target in screen would be teh l33t. |
| 02:36.28 | t-jack | OhMyAchingGut: Food poisoning? |
| 02:36.28 | peterS | nvz: -S is a great way to tell your different screen sessions apart |
| 02:36.28 | OhMyAchingGut | i don't? |
| 02:36.31 | VoltageX | peterS: so *that's* the command... |
| 02:36.36 | VoltageX | peterS: thanks |
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| 02:36.45 | VoltageX | errgh... lag |
| 02:36.46 | greycat | OhMyAchingGut: if you run X in screen, you are too advanced for this channel. |
| 02:36.47 | peterS | nvz: then you can connect to that particular session, with 'screen -x irc' |
| 02:36.49 | OhMyAchingGut | strange how i started a screen session before "startx"... |
| 02:36.57 | enntee | mwilson: i only use one qt app, and i know how to choose a nice theme if i have kde installed, but otherwise i have no idea how to make qt not look like ass |
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| 02:37.06 | greycat | OhMyAchingGut: that doesn't run *X* inside screen. Just the startx command. |
| 02:37.14 | chifinet | upgrading 2.4.24->26... apt-get install kernel-source-2.4.26 bzip2, tar, apt-get make gcc ncurses5-dev... go to compile the kernel and make menuconfig gives me make: *** No rule to make target `menuconfig'. Stop. |
| 02:37.19 | nvz | peterS: I never knew about that option.. if I ran many screen sessions that might be helpful, but I normally wouldnt do that.. one screen session is all one person really needs, you can always C-a c |
| 02:37.24 | peterS | greycat: will it even work? won't startx complain about not being on a VT? |
| 02:37.30 | OhMyAchingGut | greycat, heh ok than i DON'T run X in screen |
| 02:37.30 | greycat | OhMyAchingGut: so you can see the startx output without leaving X, which is cool, but not quite as cool as you implied. |
| 02:37.33 | *** join/#debian JoshTriplett (~Josh_Trip@joshtriplett.registered) |
| 02:37.35 | greycat | peterS: dunno. |
| 02:37.46 | OhMyAchingGut | i do know its doable because someone else mentioed that they run X in screen |
| 02:37.47 | peterS | nvz: ahh. I keep about 4 or 5 screen sessions, for different purposes, each with multiple windows in them |
| 02:37.51 | mwilson | enntee: So run qtconfig, and set what you like. |
| 02:38.00 | peterS | nvz: kind of like having multiple galeon windows each with a full complement of tabs, I suppose |
| 02:38.00 | enntee | mwilson: thanks |
| 02:38.01 | OhMyAchingGut | i just didn't realize thats not what i was doing heh |
| 02:38.04 | mwilson | enntee: Don't know what that has to do with KDE, or Gnome. |
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| 02:38.34 | greycat | !FAQsmite chifinet |
| 02:38.34 | dpkg | chifinet: GO READ THE FAQ!! It's at http://www.linuks.mine.nu/debian-faq-wiki/ -- greycat and others have SLAVED for HOURS to make a FAQ that answers your question and you don't even bother to read it! http://www.linuks.mine.nu/debian-faq-wiki/ |
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| 02:38.47 | nvz | peterS: I try to use things for what they are good for and not over do it.. if you for example use galeon with tabs, you do it so you can easily access them from tabs, therefor using several tabbed windows defeats this purpose |
| 02:38.48 | \amethyst | peterS: startx doesn't care where it's started from. You can run startx from an xterm if you so desire |
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| 02:39.07 | fuckinw00t | hey there |
| 02:39.15 | peterS | nvz: yeah, but once you have more than 5 or 6 tabs, they become unwieldy to navigate between, since galeon doesn't do multiple rows of tabs |
| 02:39.29 | peterS | \amethyst: it doesn't? I thought it did a sanity check |
| 02:39.37 | \amethyst | peterS: Why would it care? |
| 02:39.37 | JoshTriplett | peterS: No. |
| 02:39.40 | mwilson | peterS: Does Galeon do anything besides crash well? |
| 02:39.55 | peterS | mwilson: not much. lets me view web pages, mostly. |
| 02:40.01 | *** part/#debian bwanadik (~bwanadik@max2-48.internetpro.net) |
| 02:40.13 | \amethyst | peterS: rather, why should it care? |
| 02:40.32 | peterS | \amethyst: because allowing remote users to run startx and thus change the local console would be largely pointless. I thought it checked just to make sure you weren't doing that by accident. |
| 02:40.41 | JoshTriplett | peterS: Ah. |
| 02:40.53 | JoshTriplett | peterS: You can configure the X wrapper to only allow console users. |
| 02:40.56 | mwilson | peterS: I don't think I'd have much use for an application that "let" me do things. |
| 02:40.58 | nvz | peterS: yeah.. well keep in mind most of the things I do, I keep my system resources in mind Via82C585VP/CyrixPR133/128MB & IntelPIIX4/PentiumMMX200/256MB so I dont run too many web pages at once or my pc gets really ignorant |
| 02:40.58 | *** part/#debian danielon (~root@CM-mapu2-103-168.cm.vtr.net) |
| 02:41.00 | peterS | *not* because it *couldn't* do so - just because it wouldn't make sense to do so |
| 02:41.02 | *** mode/#debian [+l 658] by debhelper |
| 02:41.05 | JoshTriplett | peterS: But that's a function of X, not startx. |
| 02:41.26 | t-jack | greycat: You slave for hours over a hot computer cooking up something special and no one appreciates it. You might file for divorce. |
| 02:41.34 | peterS | JoshTriplett: well, one or the other. it's the principle |
| 02:41.35 | greycat | peterS: "startx -- :1" makes perfect sense from an xterm on :0 |
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| 02:41.57 | peterS | greycat: somewhat, yes |
| 02:41.58 | nvz | peterS: I try balance my tasks between these two dinosaurs |
| 02:42.19 | peterS | nvz: I hear ya. I hacked on a Pentium 166, 128 MB RAM, until a few months ago. so I feel your pain. |
| 02:42.30 | \amethyst | peterS: It's not always pointless. It could be running xvfb as the server, for example |
| 02:42.43 | JoshTriplett | \amethyst: Or xnest. |
| 02:42.54 | peterS | \amethyst: do you normally invoke xvfb or xnest via startx? |
| 02:43.35 | karsten | greycat: It's a bug's life. |
| 02:43.50 | \amethyst | peterS: Not normally, no |
| 02:44.02 | nvz | peterS: this one I think I am over doing it running X and Ion.. I was planning on having this VIA maintain my IRC connection and playing my music so it the music wouldnt skip or the irc wouldnt lag when my load got heavy.. and do everything else on the Intel. but when I searched on giFT today my music skipped, so I think with X and Ion running I am still wearing thin on resources somewhere |
| 02:44.08 | peterS | "nor would want to think of", of course, but still |
| 02:44.14 | JoshTriplett | Heh. |
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| 02:44.24 | \amethyst | peterS: But I do sometimes run startx -- :1 from an xterm or a screen session |
| 02:44.34 | JoshTriplett | That's a strange quit message. |
| 02:44.50 | *** join/#debian t|zz (~tizz@217-162-1-49.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 02:45.04 | t-jack | !FAQsmite t-jack |
| 02:45.06 | dpkg | t-jack: GO READ THE FAQ!! It's at http://www.linuks.mine.nu/debian-faq-wiki/ -- greycat and others have SLAVED for HOURS to make a FAQ that answers your question and you don't even bother to read it! http://www.linuks.mine.nu/debian-faq-wiki/ |
| 02:45.18 | *** join/#debian telme (~non@c-24-8-57-124.client.comcast.net) |
| 02:46.00 | telme | can anyone tell me which .deb package will satisfy a dependency for "X" or "X includes"? |
| 02:46.09 | JoshTriplett | telme: xlibs-dev |
| 02:46.20 | *** join/#debian lba (~xin_is_co@4.242.135.157) |
| 02:46.26 | JoshTriplett | telme: That's a metapackage, that depends on all the different libblah-dev packages for X. |
| 02:46.27 | nvz | peterS: I really dont need Ion, I will probably try that svga console hack you guys mentioned tomorrow and quit running X for no good reason. I really dont need Ion and Xscreensaver and everything running on this system for what it does |
| 02:46.54 | telme | JoshTriplett: I've got xlibs-dev installed but am still getting the error |
| 02:46.57 | peterS | nvz: heh. svgatextmode is great, like I said, once you've configured it for your chipset and such, and assuming your chip is supported as something more than just vga. |
| 02:47.10 | JoshTriplett | telme: Then you'll have to be more specific about the error. |
| 02:47.12 | telme | JoshTriplett: I'm trying to compile unixODBC, can't get past teh ./configure |
| 02:47.18 | *** join/#debian noflex (~noflex@D40AE7DE.rev.stofanet.dk) |
| 02:47.35 | JoshTriplett | telme: What test program fails? |
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| 02:47.57 | telme | checking for X... configure: error: Can't find X includes. Please check your installation and add the correct paths! |
| 02:48.06 | telme | JoshTriplett: that's the error |
| 02:48.07 | JoshTriplett | telme: And for that matter, why not use the packaged version? |
| 02:48.22 | *** join/#debian Erase1 (heffel@ip68-105-185-247.dc.dc.cox.net) |
| 02:48.29 | telme | JoshTriplett: tried that already and couldn't get it to plug into mysql |
| 02:48.39 | nvz | peterS: well I do only have S3 cards here. so I dont know if I am supported.. I could also try an mpg321 alternative.. that might have alot to do with the music skipping, I have heard alot of people talk bad about it.. |
| 02:48.42 | *** join/#debian BaHaMuT (java@lonax8-b064.dialup.optusnet.com.au) |
| 02:48.43 | telme | JoshTriplett: compiling from source was reccomended |
| 02:48.45 | thomas_adam | telme: xlibs-dev, have the header files in. |
| 02:48.51 | thomas_adam | telme: By whom? |
| 02:49.05 | telme | thomas_adam: already installed |
| 02:49.10 | peterS | nvz: probably supported |
| 02:49.17 | *** join/#debian guccio (~guccio@218.80.123.88) |
| 02:49.17 | JoshTriplett | telme: Do you have "libmyodbc" installed? |
| 02:49.21 | peterS | nvz: s3virge certainly is. I think most other s3's are too |
| 02:49.33 | telme | JoshTriplett: yes, and from .deb source |
| 02:49.36 | Erase1 | I've been having X stability problems lately. I'm running Gnome 2.6 under Sid. Are there any known Sid issues relating to this currently? |
| 02:49.36 | thomas_adam | Nighty night. |
| 02:49.41 | *** join/#debian phoen][x (~phoenix@a81-14-154-90.net-htp.de) |
| 02:49.53 | thomas_adam | !tell Erase1 about bts |
| 02:49.54 | JoshTriplett | Erase1: Yes, although I don't know the details. |
| 02:50.03 | JoshTriplett | telme: Check config.log for the exact program that failed, and the library or header it can't find. |
| 02:50.17 | telme | JoshTriplett: strace? |
| 02:50.17 | Erase1 | thanks, I was beginning to suspect bad hardware |
| 02:50.25 | JoshTriplett | telme: No, config.log. |
| 02:50.29 | nvz | peterS: also do you know of any way I can ensure things like mpg321 or such always get process priority over other things? like I know how to renice, but is there an easy way to ensure that all mpg321 processes get the right nice level so they wont catch interference if irssi or giFT or something starts trying to consume system resources? |
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| 02:51.02 | peterS | nvz: well, you can nice everything *but* mpg321, I suppose |
| 02:51.11 | jmacs | hi |
| 02:51.12 | CompWizrd | mpg321 has a realtime option as well, doesn't it? |
| 02:51.21 | thomas_adam | nice levels are a myth that people should ignore |
| 02:51.29 | nvz | CompWizrd: I dont know.. I have to look into this more tomorrow |
| 02:51.31 | jmacs | i was trying to help a friend install debian and we ran into some trouble with gnome |
| 02:51.46 | JoshTriplett | telme: Looks like the libmyodbc package is outdated compared to mysql, according to the bts. |
| 02:51.49 | nvz | I should first try like madplay or something and just see if its any different |
| 02:52.02 | nvz | and also try playing oggs and see if I get the same problem |
| 02:52.04 | t-jack | How do I completely clear a pending woody>>sid dist-upgrade to try to go one at a time? |
| 02:52.04 | wuming | i finished base installation (woody) what i should apt-get to get gnome up running |
| 02:52.10 | jmacs | we apt'ed it and dpkg gave an error on gnome-session ... the error mentioned the kill command which was weird |
| 02:52.12 | *** join/#debian catalyst (~catalyst@cm203.omega169.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 02:52.14 | thomas_adam | t-jack: apt-get clean |
| 02:52.18 | nvz | thomas_adam: a myth? |
| 02:52.26 | telme | JoshTriplett: config.log says essentially the same thing as the error i pasted earlier |
| 02:52.35 | CompWizrd | -T get realtime priority |
| 02:52.38 | CompWizrd | is the option on mpg123 |
| 02:52.40 | JoshTriplett | thomas_adam: As you said before, you don't use Linux 2.6 . |
| 02:52.40 | telme | JoshTriplett: should i get libmyodbc from source too then? |
| 02:52.41 | nvz | are you telling me that the kernel process priorities are fake? |
| 02:52.45 | thomas_adam | nvz: Well, lots of people like to look at renicing process as a means of making the program 'run faster'. |
| 02:52.53 | t-jack | thomas_adam: Lots I forget after 7+ months... |
| 02:52.56 | thomas_adam | JoshTriplett: .... |
| 02:52.58 | NeoRayzor2 | there is a real good game of rpg on linux? |
| 02:53.08 | JoshTriplett | NeoRayzor2: Yes. nethack, crawl, omega-rpg |
| 02:53.11 | telme | JoshTriplett: there's really no compiling for libmyodbc, just an .so file |
| 02:53.14 | nvz | thomas_adam: I am talking about making the music not skip when giFT returns 800+ results |
| 02:53.17 | JoshTriplett | NeoRayzor2: falcons-eye. |
| 02:53.36 | NeoRayzor2 | but with good graphics |
| 02:53.40 | JoshTriplett | telme: config.log should specifically give the details of what fails. |
| 02:53.40 | greycat | it's debatable whether nethack qualifies as an RPG |
| 02:53.53 | CompWizrd | nvz: have you tried --aggressive? |
| 02:53.53 | JoshTriplett | greycat: Depends on how much RP you do. |
| 02:54.01 | JoshTriplett | greycat: But it seems like one to me. |
| 02:54.18 | JoshTriplett | NeoRayzor2: There's also freedroidrpg, although it's incomplete. |
| 02:54.20 | *** join/#debian MessenGer (~aSpirin@ppp-203.118.111.220.revip.asianet.co.th) |
| 02:54.35 | Ra1stlin | good night |
| 02:54.39 | nvz | CompWizrd: nope I normally just satisfy the sound comming out of my speakers by handing off some of the more tedius tasks to the other PC here.. heh I am just now considering figuring out what causes it |
| 02:54.49 | *** join/#debian pedantic (pedantic@cs24315-191.austin.rr.com) |
| 02:54.56 | nvz | tomorrow anyhow.. I am about to go to bed |
| 02:54.59 | JoshTriplett | greycat: Have you read the "Ellora" story on rec.games.roguelike.nethack? |
| 02:55.07 | *** join/#debian psyphen (psyphen@dyn79.nas5.per.eftel.com) |
| 02:55.13 | JoshTriplett | But in general, good RPGs for GNU/LInux seem to be sadly lacking. |
| 02:55.36 | JoshTriplett | greycat: If you even remotely like nethack, it's worth reading. I read it via groups.google.com |
| 02:55.39 | NeoRayzor2 | Never winter night :P |
| 02:55.44 | NeoRayzor2 | but its not 100% linux |
| 02:55.54 | *** part/#debian pedantic (pedantic@cs24315-191.austin.rr.com) |
| 02:55.54 | JoshTriplett | NeoRayzor2: Or even 1% Free Software. |
| 02:56.00 | telme | JoshTriplett: config.log is REAL big and doesn't seem to have anything related to "X include" except that it can't find it and i should check the path |
| 02:56.02 | greycat | JoshTriplett: I'm #9 on the alt.org/nethack/ all-time players list... |
| 02:56.10 | NeoRayzor2 | jeje |
| 02:56.14 | greycat | unless someone's knocked me down a notch since I last checked |
| 02:56.25 | JoshTriplett | greycat: Whoa. |
| 02:56.26 | humbolt | anybody any idea about xdirectfb and debian? |
| 02:56.39 | CompWizrd | i usually die of hunger early in nethack |
| 02:56.39 | CompWizrd | :) |
| 02:56.44 | NeoRayzor2 | what its that? |
| 02:56.50 | NeoRayzor2 | xdirectfb |
| 02:56.56 | NeoRayzor2 | sound like m$ |
| 02:56.57 | JoshTriplett | greycat: No, you're still 9. |
| 02:57.14 | nvz | humbolt: I had this idea last night that they were having thoughts of going on vacation to Las Vegas and getting hitched |
| 02:57.15 | JoshTriplett | telme: I don't know the answer, then. |
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| 02:58.04 | nvz | humbolt: you should try construct a question that will generate the answers you are looking for |
| 02:58.06 | telme | JoshTriplett: ok, thanks for trying |
| 02:58.18 | jian1_ | hehe, I have two harddisks |
| 02:58.22 | JoshTriplett | telme: One of the logs should say exactly what test failed, though. |
| 02:58.23 | jian1_ | 1 is 160gb another is 20gb |
| 02:58.28 | *** join/#debian bluefox83 (~DebianRox@user-0c90h25.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 02:58.36 | jian1_ | how should I partition my debian system to maximize performance? |
| 02:58.36 | humbolt | is there a xdirectfb package for debian? |
| 02:58.40 | bluefox83 | there another room for eggdrop support besides #eggdrop ? |
| 02:58.46 | jian1_ | for personal use |
| 02:58.46 | greycat | jian1_: partitions have nothing to do with performance |
| 02:58.50 | jian1_ | well |
| 02:59.04 | JoshTriplett | greycat: I generally make it to Minetown. |
| 02:59.06 | jian1_ | eg /var in one disk, /usr in another |
| 02:59.10 | NeoRayzor2 | the first partition need to be the swap partiton |
| 02:59.18 | jian1_ | or swap on another disk |
| 02:59.27 | jian1_ | I've heard the performance is better |
| 02:59.33 | humbolt | is using xdirectfb a good idea, when I have a radeon mobility 6 ly and want to use tvout? |
| 02:59.42 | bluefox83 | might be a good idea to keep it on one disk so debian doesn't have to mount multiple drives.. |
| 02:59.44 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: My suggestion: Put / on the 20GB disk, and /home on the 160GB. |
| 02:59.57 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: Tried "atitvout"? |
| 02:59.58 | NeoRayzor2 | the first cilinders and sector of the disk . |
| 03:00.05 | jian1_ | 20gb has windows installed... |
| 03:00.11 | humbolt | yes! |
| 03:00.13 | jian1_ | so only 15gb avalable |
| 03:00.31 | jian1_ | how about /var? |
| 03:00.39 | jian1_ | I put /var on the 15gb disk? |
| 03:00.43 | jian1_ | and swap too? |
| 03:00.49 | jian1_ | it'll boost the speed? |
| 03:00.50 | ac1d | hello |
| 03:00.57 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: You should never need that much /var , unless you run a server. |
| 03:01.03 | ac1d | is it possile to have more than one 'poll' line in a fetchmailrc |
| 03:01.03 | *** join/#debian macpato (~luigi@201.224.106.209) |
| 03:01.04 | ac1d | ? |
| 03:01.14 | jian1_ | oh.. how doyou suggest me to partition my harddisk then? |
| 03:01.43 | NeoRayzor2 | the first sector the swap partition |
| 03:01.45 | jian1_ | I used to partion like : /boot / /home /var /tmp |
| 03:01.51 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: Rather than guessing about what will be accessed separately, you could just RAID1 15GB on each disk, use that for /, and then put /home on the rest. |
| 03:01.54 | NeoRayzor2 | i read that somewhere |
| 03:01.58 | *** part/#debian oc__ (oc@enigma.nixsecure.net) |
| 03:02.04 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: RAID1 will boost read performance. |
| 03:02.11 | jian1_ | I don't know how to make a raid |
| 03:02.18 | bluefox83 | JoshTriplett, but wont that make write performance drop? |
| 03:02.19 | NeoRayzor2 | aaa and use hdparm |
| 03:02.20 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: Neither do I. :) |
| 03:02.24 | jian1_ | lol |
| 03:02.25 | JoshTriplett | bluefox83: Slightly. |
| 03:02.30 | JoshTriplett | bluefox83: But not by much. |
| 03:02.31 | NeoRayzor2 | that will boot the hard disk velocity |
| 03:02.34 | jian1_ | seriously, yo give me a solution to partition |
| 03:02.39 | JoshTriplett | bluefox83: Since the writes can happen in parallel. |
| 03:02.50 | nvz | yeah I am having troubble constructing meaningful thoughts, its time for bed |
| 03:02.52 | humbolt | what I hate about linux X is, that I always have to make a decision about what I give up in favour of something else! tvout=X-vesa-driver, dri best with radeon, console sucks without framebuffer since 1280x600. |
| 03:03.06 | jian1_ | how about this: |
| 03:03.17 | bluefox83 | linux X? O.o |
| 03:03.24 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: atitvout doesn't work at all, even with the various force options? |
| 03:03.29 | jian1_ | eg /boot 512mb, /usr 80gb /home 40gb /20gb |
| 03:03.29 | bluefox83 | you mean X in linux? |
| 03:03.30 | humbolt | I want all! dri+gl+tvout |
| 03:03.37 | zarchne | jian1_: there are security-related reasons to partition... I use LVM to allow modifications if I change my mind about sizing. |
| 03:03.39 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: I've got that here. |
| 03:03.51 | jian1_ | zarchne.. I don't know about LVM |
| 03:04.00 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: You don't need more than 32MB or so for /boot, at most. |
| 03:04.11 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: And you really don't need to keep it separate. |
| 03:04.11 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: it does! with vesa fb |
| 03:04.24 | jian1_ | y? |
| 03:04.40 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: with a radeon mobility card?? |
| 03:04.42 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: It's only accessed at boot. |
| 03:04.44 | bluefox83 | how can i install my nvidia video card drivers if i used apt to get my kernel image? |
| 03:04.51 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: Yes. Radeon Mobility 7500. Laptop. |
| 03:05.02 | jian1_ | alright, /boot 32mb, /usr 80gb /home 40gb /20gb |
| 03:05.03 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: And it only holds kernel images. |
| 03:05.04 | jian1_ | how about this? |
| 03:05.07 | nvz | eww radeon mobility that thing gave me hell |
| 03:05.10 | jian1_ | I know it holds kernels |
| 03:05.16 | jian1_ | but what if I have 100+kernels ? lol |
| 03:05.32 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: which means, that you are using ati's proprietary drivers! |
| 03:05.39 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: Not a chance. |
| 03:05.48 | zarchne | jian1_, unless you have a bunch of stuff in /usr/local, you only need about 2G for /usr |
| 03:05.49 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: XFree86 4.3, radeon driver. |
| 03:06.10 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: an you can use tv out?? |
| 03:06.18 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: That'll probably work fine. Although I would sooner give 140 to /home, 15 to /usr, 5 to /. |
| 03:06.21 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: Yup. |
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| 03:06.25 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: And 3D. |
| 03:06.25 | fbb | what would be a good streaming audio player for console? |
| 03:06.26 | jian1_ | josh |
| 03:06.27 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: without vesafb |
| 03:06.29 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: 1600x1200. |
| 03:06.30 | zarchne | jian1_: well, maybe 3G for /usr |
| 03:06.36 | jian1_ | the debian whole cd sets will be 15gb at least on cd |
| 03:06.38 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: No framebuffer of any kind. |
| 03:06.57 | JaneLame | i just installed debian, and kde with apt, but it freezes on "initiallizing system services..." |
| 03:06.59 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: so, how do I do it?? |
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| 03:07.03 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: Yes, but you won't be installing everything on them. You can't, even. Many things conflict. |
| 03:07.05 | JaneLame | and then a blank white screen |
| 03:07.06 | jmacs | does anyone know why dpkg would give me an error relating to the kill command when trying to apt gnome-session?? |
| 03:07.16 | jian1_ | hmm... before I made /var 256mb |
| 03:07.20 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: Well, first get DRI working with the Radeon driver. |
| 03:07.21 | jian1_ | when compile mozilla |
| 03:07.25 | mwilson | jmacs: Does anyone get to know what the actual error is? |
| 03:07.27 | jian1_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:07.32 | jmacs | umm |
| 03:07.35 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: That way you have everything but tv-out. |
| 03:07.35 | jian1_ | so later on I used to give /var 10gb |
| 03:07.39 | jmacs | mwilson: let me see if i remember it |
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| 03:07.50 | jmacs | it happened 2 days ago at his house |
| 03:07.53 | mwilson | Oh, gee, this should be fun. |
| 03:07.54 | JaneLame | where do i search for the error? my kde is dead... |
| 03:08.29 | bluefox83 | gah! does apt have the drivers for nvidia cards and kernel 2.6.5? |
| 03:08.30 | greycat | JaneLame: probably somewhere in ~/.kde/ |
| 03:08.35 | jian1_ | joshtriplett |
| 03:08.36 | nvz | JaneLame: give the good people some more info, like which debian distro (woody, sid, sarge) and what you typed on the apt-get line |
| 03:08.36 | humbolt | no problem, that works, but if I use dri, kwin crashes every second startup! can see content but no windows around it! |
| 03:08.39 | jmacs | mwilson: it was to the effect of dpkg error code 1 ... kill:usage:kill blah blah ... gnome-session not configured |
| 03:08.45 | jmacs | that's about it |
| 03:08.47 | jian1_ | I have some matlab and mathematica stuffs to install |
| 03:08.51 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: That's strange. |
| 03:08.52 | greycat | JaneLame: or ask in #debian-kde or #kde |
| 03:08.54 | jian1_ | so I bet at least /usr should be bigger |
| 03:09.03 | JaneLame | sarge. 2.4.25 . i typed apt-get install kde |
| 03:09.08 | JaneLame | and then xdm |
| 03:09.12 | JaneLame | oh |
| 03:09.14 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: Then run "atitvout -f t"; that works for me. If that doesn't work, try "atitvout -r t". |
| 03:09.16 | JaneLame | ok |
| 03:09.21 | mwilson | jmacs: I'm sure. |
| 03:09.37 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: jian1_ So make /usr a bit bigger then. But allocate the lion's share to /home. |
| 03:09.54 | jian1_ | 30gb for /usr? |
| 03:09.58 | jian1_ | sounds enough? |
| 03:10.02 | jmacs | mwilson: it was not a very descriptive error message |
| 03:10.03 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: More than enough. |
| 03:10.03 | larsie | hehe |
| 03:10.06 | jian1_ | ok, hehe |
| 03:10.08 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: and you are sure that you have no vesa fb support compiled into your kernel! |
| 03:10.14 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: Then 5 or 10 for /. |
| 03:10.17 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: And the rest for /home. |
| 03:10.25 | jian1_ | so /boot 100mb / 15gb /usr 30gb /home the rest |
| 03:10.27 | JoshTriplett | humbolt: No framebuffer of any kind. |
| 03:10.28 | jian1_ | right? |
| 03:10.31 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: OK. |
| 03:10.36 | nvz | if I were ever to leave debian, it would be for a distro that doesnt support kde or gnome and concentrates on developing useful software |
| 03:10.42 | JoshTriplett | jian1_: (Note that partitioning is mostly a matter of taste.) |
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| 03:10.52 | JoshTriplett | nvz: useful is subjective. |
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| 03:11.03 | JoshTriplett | nvz: I find KDE incredibly useful. |
| 03:11.11 | nvz | JoshTriplett: obviously.. there are things called KDE and GNOME arent there? |
| 03:11.22 | mwilson | nvz: So you wouldn't use Linux any more, then. |
| 03:11.33 | jian1_ | btw, put them all in the same disk? |
| 03:11.34 | fbb | what would be a good streaming audio player for console? |
| 03:11.44 | bluefox83 | i like to use icewm, and then run kde and gnome tools when i need them..hehe |
| 03:11.53 | *** part/#debian JoshTriplett (~Josh_Trip@joshtriplett.registered) |
| 03:11.55 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: I'll give it a try! no fbdevhw option in xf86config? what options do you have enabled to increase performance? what kernel version do you have? |
| 03:12.02 | greycat | fbb: ogg123 or mpg321 or mplayer |
| 03:12.11 | fbb | greycat: ok thanks |
| 03:12.19 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: can you send me your XF86Config-4? |
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| 03:12.40 | mwilson | humbolt: How many different ways does he need to tell you that he's not using fb? |
| 03:12.49 | derobert | How do I get linemode in telnetd? I tried defining LINEMODE in debian/rules and recompiling, but it failed to compile. |
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| 03:12.57 | greycat | you're using telnetd? |
| 03:13.01 | greycat | *shudder* |
| 03:13.26 | humbolt | mwilson: a million |
| 03:13.36 | derobert | greycat: I plan to port-forward it over ssh |
| 03:13.47 | The_Vulture | what? |
| 03:13.53 | derobert | greycat: link latency is ~700ms, so line-mode might just make it bareable |
| 03:14.07 | nvz | derobert: ooh.. thats like saying I know well enought to use ssh, but I am still using telnet |
| 03:14.10 | greycat | 700 ms will never be tolerable. |
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| 03:14.41 | derobert | greycat: well, since its a satellite link, no choince in the matter |
| 03:14.46 | greycat | unless you're using a local-terminal-processing model (e.g. a web browser or an AS/400) |
| 03:14.52 | humbolt | mwilson: ok, ok, I believe it now! I'll give it a try! |
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| 03:15.05 | mwilson | Ahhh, /ignore |
| 03:15.06 | derobert | greycat: linemode = "process line on local side, send complete line to server" |
| 03:15.07 | greycat | for anything interactive at a character level (e.g. typing a letter in vi), you'll go nuts. |
| 03:15.11 | jarango | how can I query the tx rate on an eth interface ? |
| 03:15.13 | nvz | I got telnet running here.. but its a firmware based router with a ARM cpu.. |
| 03:15.28 | greycat | derobert: how is that useful, though? what unix apps would grok that properly? |
| 03:15.38 | derobert | greycat: vi |
| 03:15.51 | greycat | derobert: did you test it without all the port forwarding? |
| 03:15.51 | humbolt | JoshTriplett: do you have any problems using 2 screens (not cloning)? |
| 03:15.52 | mwilson | 35 people in my list |
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| 03:16.27 | derobert | greycat: I've tried without all the forwarding using telnetd-ssl, but the server always gives the option WONT LINEMODE |
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| 03:17.17 | carrett | will aptitude pick up (and try to remove) packages i used to have installed even if i didn't install them with aptitude? |
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| 03:17.37 | carrett | sorry |
| 03:17.41 | carrett | let me retry that |
| 03:17.48 | wuming | how can i setup the mouse in woody(Vmware on windows host), |
| 03:17.51 | derobert | greycat: I've found this with a lot of searching <http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/9911.3/0650.html>; does Linux even have linemode support? |
| 03:18.02 | carrett | will aptitude pick up (and try to remove) deps of packages i used to have installed even if i didn't install them with aptitude? |
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| 03:19.06 | greycat | derobert: no idea. |
| 03:19.08 | mickeyks | carrett i'm not sure but i don't think so |
| 03:19.28 | carrett | mickeyks: so i should use deborphan or something and just use aptitude from now on? |
| 03:19.29 | mickeyks | i think it would know if you installed them with something else once you already had aptitude installed |
| 03:19.54 | carrett | mickeyks: oh, i think i had it installed i just didn't use it to install the package... |
| 03:20.00 | carrett | mickeyks: i used apt-get |
| 03:20.03 | mickeyks | carrett: i'm not endorsing using aptitude from now on, but i don't think it's going to help you in this situation |
| 03:20.09 | opp | generally speaking , generally speaking , are amd mobos cheaper than intel mobos?are amd mobos cheaper than intel mobos? |
| 03:20.14 | jarango | how can I query the tx rate on an eth interface ? |
| 03:20.23 | faw | ifconfig |
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| 03:20.28 | carrett | mickeyks: you don't like aptitude? got any package-manager suggestions? |
| 03:20.32 | mickeyks | carrett: oh. i think aptitude sees what apt-get does |
| 03:20.32 | faw | jarango, ifconfig |
| 03:20.34 | mwilson | mickeyks: G'evening |
| 03:20.41 | mickeyks | hi mwilson |
| 03:20.54 | mwilson | mickeyks: How did he get to your not liking aptitude from what you've said so far? |
| 03:20.55 | carrett | mickeyks: cool. |
| 03:20.56 | dan2 | mwilson: hey |
| 03:21.02 | xcen | how can I completely remove a metapackage.... doing apt-get install gnome-desktop-environment installs 200+ packages and doing apt-get remove gnome-desktop-environment removes 4 of them... :S |
| 03:21.10 | dan2 | mwilson: do you have any experience with fucked iptables *g*? |
| 03:21.15 | mickeyks | mwilson: good question |
| 03:21.26 | mickeyks | mwilson: although he's right |
| 03:21.32 | mwilson | dan2: I *never* offer help with iptables. |
| 03:21.39 | mwilson | dan2: Personal rule. |
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| 03:22.03 | mickeyks | carrett: i like dselect and synaptic better |
| 03:22.06 | dan2 | mwilson: heh, this is probably not even iptables related when you get martian source from 192.168.1.x to 192.168.1.1 |
| 03:22.12 | mwilson | dan2: Someone does something stupid, they get owned, somehow it's your fault. |
| 03:22.32 | jarango | faw: I only see transmitted amounts, not rate.. Is it some command line option ? |
| 03:22.33 | dan2 | mwilson: probably, but my iptables setup hasn't changed in weeks... |
| 03:22.33 | mickeyks | carrett: but then, i don't know everything that aptitude does. a lot of people who know more than i do use it all the time |
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| 03:23.16 | dan2 | mwilson: this switch has been acting funny, I guess I ought to hook up via a crossover cable to do testing |
| 03:23.40 | carrett | mickeyks: yeah, i'm trying to pick a package manager, i've just been apt-getting it for too logn |
| 03:23.44 | carrett | logn=long |
| 03:24.17 | wuming | how can I stop the beep when i hit some key |
| 03:24.21 | jarango | Its the third time gkrellm crashes on me. Is this happening to anyone else ? |
| 03:24.31 | jetscreamer | !dselect |
| 03:24.32 | dpkg | well, dselect is a wonderful GUI for package management. or really more powerful than apt-get or the only thing that provides FULL data when making decisions on whether to install a package. most people should not hate dselect but some seem to have been told to. just read the help screens, or <Ozzie> is there a dselect howto? - Yes there is: http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/dselect-beginner Also ask me about aptitude. |
| 03:24.36 | carrett | jarango: not me |
| 03:25.15 | carrett | jetscreamer: was that for me? |
| 03:25.35 | jetscreamer | sure, but you might like synaptic better |
| 03:25.50 | greycat | If it needs a howto, perhaps its documentation is not optimal. |
| 03:25.51 | fbb | is there an mp3 player for console that can handle .pls playlists? |
| 03:25.55 | greycat | Or its user interface. |
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| 03:26.24 | derobert | or, possibly, different people learn to use their programs in different ways, and some prefer howtos |
| 03:26.28 | mickeyks | with aptitude i have accidentally installed/uninstalled a whole bunch of packages, more than once. |
| 03:26.28 | jetscreamer | the ui is fine, just the package list is kinda long |
| 03:26.29 | aZ[a]ZeL | howdy ho |
| 03:26.34 | carrett | fbb: tried mp3blaster? |
| 03:26.40 | jetscreamer | yeah --with-suggests is powerful |
| 03:26.47 | mickeyks | also, you can't scroll through the package descriptions in aptitude. or at least i can't |
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| 03:27.14 | mickeyks | i mean, within the description of the same package |
| 03:27.16 | fbb | carrett: nope, thanks |
| 03:27.29 | carrett | fbb: not sure if it can do .pls |
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| 03:29.11 | xcen | cool I never heard of aptitude before :) easier to use than dselect |
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| 03:29.46 | xcen | I still wish there would be an automatic way of removing meta packages rather than guessing what came in it |
| 03:30.06 | mwilson | Nothing comes in a meta-package. |
| 03:30.24 | xcen | hmm ok perhaps I am not using the right term then |
| 03:30.32 | mwilson | A meta-package is there to depend on groups of packages, that's all. |
| 03:30.34 | greycat | mwilson: trouble can. |
| 03:30.38 | Nurbs | xcen: what that meta package dragged in? |
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| 03:30.48 | bluefox83 | how do i stop gdm? |
| 03:30.53 | jarango | every once in a while gkrellm is crashing with the following xmessage window message: "gkrellm aborted: GkrellMMS (update_monitor)". Any help ? |
| 03:30.54 | greycat | /etc/init.d/gdm stop |
| 03:31.02 | bluefox83 | oh, spiffy |
| 03:31.03 | Nurbs | xcen: I think aptitude can do that. Also, debfoster does |
| 03:31.05 | xcen | I mean, as I said, if you install gnome-desktop-environment... it installs a LOT of stuff.... but if you apt-get remove it, almost nothing goes away... |
| 03:31.07 | mwilson | I really don't see the problem... look at the meta-package, note what it deps on, remove deps. |
| 03:31.23 | Nurbs | mwilson: recursively, yeah. :) |
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| 03:31.33 | mickeyks | xcen: purging can help that |
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| 03:31.35 | Nurbs | mwilson: also some might have been installed earlier :) |
| 03:31.39 | xcen | mwilson not a problem per se... just a little confusing for n00bs like me used to install shield and whatnot |
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| 03:31.57 | xcen | mickeyks tried that as well... apt-get --purge remove right? |
| 03:32.12 | mickeyks | xcen: yes, or with aptitude, aptitude purge |
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| 03:32.26 | mwilson | xcen: A n00b is someone who finds excuses not to have to think. |
| 03:33.47 | mwilson | xcen: Linux doesn't require reasoning ability any different from any other field. |
| 03:33.47 | xcen | mwilson not really a n00b is someone new in a community.... I DID read the apt-get howto but couldn't fin my answer... I don't consider finding excuses not to think. Besides I think it's normal for a "power user" to want to know that all traces of an application are removed when they want to. That's all :) |
| 03:34.19 | acesmythe | question: i used the sarge live CD to install with kernel 2.6.3.i needed to upgrade my kernel so that i had the source because the NVidia driver needs it to compile against the source matching the currently running kernel... |
| 03:34.33 | xcen | mwilson It is different in the way that it used a system I have yet to fully understand |
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| 03:34.57 | mwilson | acesmythe: There is no Sarge live CD. |
| 03:35.18 | vladkao | sounds like the word with K |
| 03:35.21 | xcen | mwilson basically I am just curious as to know why many packages get install with "install" and so few when I "remove" the same package... |
| 03:35.27 | acesmythe | ... unfortunatly, whenever i install the 2.6.6 kernel, half my system stops working. is there a way to get that 2.6.3 source, or not f*ck up the kernel install? |
| 03:35.27 | mwilson | acesmythe: There are several different varieties of Sarge netinst CD's. |
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| 03:35.36 | acesmythe | that's what i meant |
| 03:35.47 | greycat | !info kernel-source-2.6.3 sarge |
| 03:35.53 | Nurbs | xcen: because only the package gets uninstalled and not its dependencies. look into aptitude or debfoster |
| 03:35.57 | peterS | xcen: what's going on is that 'gnome-desktop-environment' depends on a bunch of other packages - basically, to suck them on to the system. but removing it doesn't remove them, because they don't depend on *it*. |
| 03:35.59 | greycat | does not exist. |
| 03:36.03 | Nurbs | xcen: maybe synaptic does, too |
| 03:36.12 | greycat | !find kernel-source-2.6 sarge |
| 03:36.14 | dpkg | Debian Package Listing of 'kernel-source-2.6' (2 shown): kernel-source-2.6.5 ;; kernel-source-2.6.6. |
| 03:36.23 | acesmythe | that's what i get |
| 03:36.25 | greycat | sorry, you missed it. Try /msg dpkg snapshot or /msg dpkg archive |
| 03:36.29 | mwilson | xcen: The meta-package depends on many things. That's why it exists... to give one name to the "many things". So you install the meta-package, the other stuff gets pulled in because of dependencies. Now, you remove the meta-package. What's supposed to remove the dependencies? |
| 03:36.31 | peterS | xcen: use 'aptitude install gnome-desktop-environment' and 'aptitude remove gnome-desktop-environment', and it will keep track of what was "automatically" installed as part of something else, and remove it when the time comes |
| 03:36.38 | xcen | thanks nurbs and peters, that do answer my question :) I just thought there would be a apt-get removewithdependencies foo heheh |
| 03:37.02 | peterS | xcen: that's why 'aptitude install' and 'aptitude remove' are provided (: apt-get is quite unsophisticated, aptitude is a better tool |
| 03:37.02 | xcen | mwilson yeah I do understand that now :) |
| 03:37.19 | mwilson | Gods, I'd rather keep track on a piece of paper than use aptitude. |
| 03:37.27 | xcen | peterS yeah well today is the first day I hear about aptitude :) I started using it already and will probably stick to it |
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| 03:37.33 | dan2 | peterS: too bad aptitude can't automatically update its database if it didn't install the packages |
| 03:37.34 | peterS | xcen: yeah |
| 03:37.42 | acesmythe | ok, next question: can i easily just go back to 2.6.3? i selected it from the grub menu, but the messed up stuff is still messed up |
| 03:37.51 | The_Vulture | dan2: nature of the beast, the information just isn't there to be found |
| 03:38.04 | peterS | xcen: aptitude also has an interactive, full-screen interface - type 'aptitude' by itself to get to that |
| 03:38.07 | The_Vulture | dan2: things like deborphan etc are there to help clean up after the fact |
| 03:38.25 | acesmythe | and a quick yes or no is great at the moment, i'm being pulled out the door |
| 03:38.26 | peterS | dan2: yeah, it would just be guessing, as often wrong as right, as The_Vulture says |
| 03:38.43 | mwilson | peterS: And to make it even better, the command-line and ncurses interfaces don't have the same behavior! |
| 03:38.52 | peterS | mwilson: not exactly the same, no (: |
| 03:39.02 | xcen | peterS that's where I am right now... and... - WOW - it even has an ASCII minesweeper! :D |
| 03:39.06 | mwilson | peterS: Not even close to the same behavior. |
| 03:39.15 | acesmythe | guys? |
| 03:39.20 | *** join/#debian grishnav (~grishnav@198.36.182.59) |
| 03:39.25 | dan2 | mwilson: aptitude sucks, except it handles meta packages well |
| 03:39.26 | peterS | xcen: the ascii minesweeper is overrated. minesweeper is really hard to play without a mouse, as it turns out |
| 03:39.33 | tsocks | Hello |
| 03:39.37 | xcen | peterS still nifty though hehee |
| 03:39.49 | mwilson | dan2: I have no problem handling meta-packages... I have a brain. |
| 03:39.52 | peterS | xcen: yeah, cool idea. too bad it isn't *functionally* all that useful (: |
| 03:39.52 | zarchne | acesmythe definite maybe |
| 03:39.53 | tsocks | When I compile my kernel (2.6.4), I need to copy /usr/src/linux/.config to /boot/config-2.6.4 ? |
| 03:40.00 | grishnav | What is the "debian way" to update the kernel? |
| 03:40.09 | *** join/#debian voltagex (~voltagex@54.cust23.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au) |
| 03:40.09 | dan2 | mwilson: erm handling removal of meta packages |
| 03:40.10 | mwilson | tsocks: You do? |
| 03:40.12 | xcen | mwilson sounds frustrated tonite =] |
| 03:40.15 | peterS | grishnav: 'apt-get install' a new 'kernel-image-*' package |
| 03:40.23 | acesmythe | zarchne: since the guy pulling me out the door just steped out for a sec, would you know how? |
| 03:40.36 | Nurbs | xcen: just ignore that part of him :) |
| 03:40.37 | peterS | grishnav: or ... install 'kernel-package' and use 'make-kpkg' to build your own kernel package, which you then install with 'dpkg -i' |
| 03:40.37 | dan2 | mwilson: shutup, this might be interesting :) |
| 03:40.43 | xcen | he kinda mistake having a brain and knowing how to use and OS :) |
| 03:41.06 | grishnav | peterS: Thanks. :) |
| 03:41.07 | peterS | tsocks: it's a good convenience thing to do, so you'll know where to find it later |
| 03:41.07 | acesmythe | dont do it, it'll fuck evety thing up |
| 03:41.08 | *** join/#debian crisen (~crisen@terdmonk.gasmasksrus.com.au) |
| 03:41.10 | xcen | damn I can't spell tonite -1 me |
| 03:41.11 | peterS | tsocks: no real need, other than that |
| 03:41.16 | *** part/#debian grishnav (~grishnav@198.36.182.59) |
| 03:41.20 | peterS | tsocks: debian kernel images use that convention and it's a handy thing to have |
| 03:41.31 | voltagex | if I've attached a screen window that has something like wget running in it, how do I detatch it without killing wget? |
| 03:41.47 | tsocks | peterS: I say it because, when I start linux, it stop in: |
| 03:41.48 | crisen | voltagex : ctrl-a d |
| 03:41.51 | xcen | voltagex ctrl-? :) |
| 03:41.51 | tsocks | hda: hda1 hda2 hda3 |
| 03:41.53 | derobert | voltagex: use screen |
| 03:42.02 | zarchne | acesmythe: AFAIK, you can downgrade within 2.6 (e.g.) without breaking any debian packages. I could be wrong. |
| 03:42.06 | tsocks | peterS: ;| |
| 03:42.06 | Nurbs | derobert: he does :) |
| 03:42.08 | derobert | voltagex: then you can do C-a d |
| 03:42.26 | derobert | voltagex: and read the manual for the other things screen can do |
| 03:42.29 | peterS | tsocks: well, that's unrelated to copying your .config file around |
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| 03:42.48 | voltagex | ok brb |
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| 03:42.58 | moshe | hello |
| 03:43.07 | zarchne | acesmythe: just install the old kernel-image |
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| 03:44.51 | fbb | is there a way to copy/paste from links2 in graphical mode under the console, it doesnt seem to work for me |
| 03:45.56 | carrett | hey, if i wanted to search the whole filesystem for something, couldn't i just do "ls -R / | grep something" ? |
| 03:45.58 | *** part/#debian derobert (~anthony@Maxwell.derobert.net) |
| 03:46.06 | greycat | carrett: grep -r |
| 03:46.12 | zarchne | fbb: dunno. you tried shift and ctrl? |
| 03:46.17 | carrett | greycat: damn, well i was close :) |
| 03:46.29 | \amethyst | carrett: Do you want to search the contents of files, or their names? |
| 03:46.32 | greycat | carrett: err... did you want to search the *filenames* or the file *contents*? |
| 03:46.42 | tsocks | peterS: what could be this error? |
| 03:47.01 | peterS | tsocks: good question |
| 03:47.01 | xcen | hmm ok NOW I understand :) |
| 03:47.09 | fbb | zarchne: yea,they dont work |
| 03:47.16 | zarchne | carrett: when you find it, how will you know where it is.... you either want locate or find | xargs |
| 03:47.32 | tsocks | peterS: ? :\ |
| 03:47.55 | peterS | tsocks: I wish I had a good theory |
| 03:48.16 | Ketter | peterS: i'll second that |
| 03:48.26 | mickeyks | xcen: ask dpkg about nodm |
| 03:48.26 | peterS | tsocks: you say you built this kernel yourself - I guess try building another one, based on a debian kernel package .config file for a nearby kernel release, and diverge from there |
| 03:49.05 | tsocks | peterS: where can I find a .config of a debian kernel package ? (2.6.*) |
| 03:49.32 | xcen | mickeyks Did earlier, that's why I wanted to remove xdm... as well as all other dms |
| 03:49.38 | peterS | tsocks: I can send you the one for kernel-image-2.6.6-1-k7 |
| 03:49.41 | crisen | tsocks: check /proc/config.gz? |
| 03:49.43 | peterS | tsocks: you can tweak it from there |
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| 03:49.47 | mickeyks | xcen: i don't blame you, i don't have any dms |
| 03:49.49 | moshe | hello |
| 03:49.54 | gilgamesh | hi |
| 03:49.59 | peterS | tsocks: /dcc get peterS |
| 03:50.00 | crisen | tsocks: also /boot/config-2.6.? |
| 03:50.07 | mickeyks | moshe and gilgamesh, together at last |
| 03:50.13 | moshe | could someone explain to me what utility to use to change my x resolution? I'm stuck at a max of 800x600 |
| 03:50.29 | crisen | moshe: dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 |
| 03:50.38 | moshe | thanks |
| 03:50.54 | tsocks | peterS: :) Thanks.... it works fine ? (I'm compiling a kernel 2.6.4).. |
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| 03:51.58 | peterS | tsocks: I'm running that kernel right now |
| 03:52.07 | peterS | tsocks: copy that to ".config" and then run "make oldconfig" |
| 03:52.11 | peterS | tsocks: that will make it 2.6.4-compatible |
| 03:52.20 | peterS | tsocks: then run "make menuconfig" to change just those things you think you need to change |
| 03:53.16 | xcen | mickeyks it just takes too long to boot when you don't want to use X (700mhz laptop) |
| 03:54.35 | tsocks | peterS: why I need to run "make oldconfig" ? |
| 03:54.43 | peterS | tsocks: you don't strictly *have* to |
| 03:54.53 | peterS | tsocks: 'make menuconfig' will adjust your config to be 2.6.4-compatible as well |
| 03:55.07 | *** part/#debian RoNiS_VaScAiNo (~Ronan@200-181-094-151.bsace705.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) |
| 03:55.10 | peterS | tsocks: but 'make oldconfig' is a good general practice for migrating a config from one kernel to the next |
| 03:55.12 | mickeyks | xcen: i just don't like the feeling of being "protected" from seeing the console like i'm a baby |
| 03:55.17 | fbb | how can i stop this from happening: "init: Id "3" respawning too fast: disabled for 5 minutes" |
| 03:55.18 | peterS | tsocks: since it just shows you the new config options, so you see what is new |
| 03:55.19 | fbb | ? |
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| 03:55.23 | xcen | mickeyks hehehe I hear ya |
| 03:56.07 | mickeyks | xcen: actually every time i boot, just about, the first thing i do is startx. it may waste a few seconds but i like it. |
| 03:56.54 | zarchne | fbb: for some reason getty on tty3 is dying, presumably. |
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| 03:57.42 | zarchne | fbb: does /dev/tty3 exist? |
| 03:57.52 | tsocks | peterS: ey... you have ext2 and ext3 in modules ? |
| 03:58.12 | peterS | tsocks: that's the debian kernel image default. I suggest changing it if you're compiling your own, so you won't need an initrd |
| 03:58.17 | fbb | zarchne: yea but i dont know why, it takes like 10 secs for the prompt to come on after a log out in the console if it works, other times it doesnt work at all and i get this message, kind of annoying |
| 03:58.23 | peterS | tsocks: keep in mind, this isn't my own kernel image, I'm being lazy and using a debian one |
| 03:58.39 | tsocks | okay peterS :) |
| 03:59.30 | fbb | zarchne: yes /dev/tty3 exists |
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| 04:00.14 | mwilson | mickeyks: I meant to ask you before... why don't you just use xdm? |
| 04:00.16 | zarchne | fbb: hm. intermittent failure. anything in the logs? |
| 04:01.00 | fbb | zarchne: which logs should i check? |
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| 04:01.46 | mickeyks | mwilson: i like booting to the console. it's just a personal preference... |
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| 04:02.11 | zarchne | fbb: I knew you were going to ask that. syslog? messages? anything not specific to an unrelated daemon (mail, www) |
| 04:02.32 | *** part/#debian xai (~pasta@user-0vvdbe1.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 04:04.03 | fbb | zarchne: hmm there are a bunch of these: "Jul 11 00:00:00 debian getty[8702]: /dev/tty3: already in use" |
| 04:04.17 | fbb | in auth.log |
| 04:04.51 | zarchne | fbb: okay... so we figure out what's competing for it |
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| 04:05.13 | greycat | the nicest thing about booting to console is that you can Shift-PageUp and read all the messages. |
| 04:06.11 | ac1d | are there any screensavers for the command line? |
| 04:06.22 | zarchne | fbb: does "ps u -t 3" report anything enlightening? |
| 04:06.28 | greycat | ac1d: rain, worms |
| 04:06.34 | ac1d | thanks |
| 04:06.52 | zarchne | fbb: sorry, "ps u -t tty3" |
| 04:07.09 | greycat | worms -d 20 is cute :) |
| 04:07.21 | fbb | zarchne: nope, nothing |
| 04:07.37 | mickeyks | in vim, how can i write and quit from a file i'm editing in one window without quitting vim in general? |
| 04:07.49 | greycat | it's in pacakge bsdgames |
| 04:07.59 | tcsetattr | mickeyks, ZZ or :wq should just save and close the one window |
| 04:08.14 | Justin | mickeyks: s/quit/close/ |
| 04:08.51 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: both of those commands close vim entirely for m |
| 04:08.54 | mickeyks | for me |
| 04:09.14 | mwilson | mickeyks: Then you only have the one file open. |
| 04:09.29 | fbb | zarchne: maybe if i use some other getty program? |
| 04:09.39 | mickeyks | mwilson: the other window has part of the user-manual in it |
| 04:09.44 | tcsetattr | mickeyks, maybe you are using the word "window" differently from the normal usage... if I run "vi -o /tmp/foo /tmp/bar" I get 2 windows. Make changes in both, and type :wq and it just saves and closes the active window, and the other one grows to fill the terminal |
| 04:09.45 | mwilson | mickeyks: What you want is :close |
| 04:09.52 | mwilson | mickeyks: Not :quit |
| 04:10.05 | zarchne | fbb: I doubt it, but you could try it. |
| 04:10.10 | mickeyks | mwilson: but will :close save the changes? |
| 04:10.25 | mwilson | If you :write them first. :) |
| 04:10.41 | tcsetattr | mickeyks, seriously... describe to me what you're doing because it sounds way off from the way vim has always behaved for me. |
| 04:10.45 | zarchne | fbb: I would think the problem is with whatever else has open tty3, not getty. |
| 04:10.47 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: i think we're both talking about the same kind of windows |
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| 04:11.38 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: sure. open vim with no arguments. then :help user-manual. This puts the manual in the top window and gives you an empty window on the bottom. i used this bottom window to edit a file. |
| 04:11.40 | mwilson | tcsetattr: He wants to cease editing the file in the current buffer. |
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| 04:12.15 | mickeyks | mwilson: so can i :wc (write, close) ? |
| 04:12.24 | tcsetattr | I'm with you so far, mickeyks |
| 04:12.36 | mwilson | mickeyks: I imagine you can combine them, but if you can't, it's not like it's a big deal. |
| 04:12.51 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: ok, so the cursor is in the bottom window, and you type ZZ or :wq, and vim closes. |
| 04:13.10 | mickeyks | mwilson: true |
| 04:13.17 | tcsetattr | oh I see, it's because you have a help window. If you close the file-editing window and the only remaining window is a help window, then vim exits. But if you have 2 _file-editing_ windows open, then a ZZ or :wq in one of them doesn't cause vim to exit. |
| 04:13.28 | mwilson | mickeyks: 'sides, in the time it took you to ask me, you could have tested it. |
| 04:15.07 | tcsetattr | whereas :close (which I've never used before) lets you keep going with just a help window |
| 04:15.25 | mickeyks | mwilson: true, but if it fucked something up or closed it down again, some time would have been added |
| 04:15.57 | mwilson | mickeyks: This is why you open a NEW vim to test with, while leaving the critical one alone. :) |
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| 04:16.49 | mickeyks | mwilson: whatever happened with that firefox postscript bug you were pushing? |
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| 04:17.14 | zarchne | fbb: what about "fuser -v /dev/tty3" as root... |
| 04:17.29 | *** join/#debian voltagex (~voltagex@54.cust23.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au) |
| 04:17.55 | voltagex | how can I set irssi to autoconnect to irc.au.freenode.net and identify? |
| 04:18.30 | *** part/#debian EraserMan (heffel@ip68-105-185-247.dc.dc.cox.net) |
| 04:18.45 | mwilson | mickeyks: Kitame is ignoring the users, as usual. No one has come forward to actually describe the alleged exploit. Two different people are providing Mozilla debs with direct printing re-enabled. I have no idea what's going on with Firefox in the same regard... I have no use for it and haven't been paying attention to it. |
| 04:19.00 | tsocks | some people works in kernel 2.6.4 ? |
| 04:19.14 | Penix | tsocks: what? |
| 04:19.21 | sussudio | !confuse tsocks |
| 04:19.21 | dpkg | yes, who was your snake yesterday, tsocks? by order of the democracy of tibet with extra crabpaste |
| 04:19.40 | fbb | zarchne: yup, mldonkey was on that terminal for some reason, maybe the script i used to start it |
| 04:19.42 | sussudio | !spanish |
| 04:19.43 | dpkg | Hispanohablantes: Por favor usen #debian-es, alli obtendran mas ayuda. Spanish speakers: please go to #debian-es, you will get a lot more help there. |
| 04:19.43 | fbb | zarchne: thanks |
| 04:19.52 | fbb | zarchne: i got the login prompt now |
| 04:19.58 | zarchne | fbb: hooray |
| 04:20.04 | mwilson | mickeyks: I should put it on slashcrap. |
| 04:20.19 | Hill-o-beans | what is a good firewall program to use?? |
| 04:20.24 | greycat | vi |
| 04:20.24 | mickeyks | mwilson: totally. |
| 04:20.40 | noflex | Hill-o-beans: http://firestarter.sourceforge.net/ |
| 04:20.40 | mickeyks | mwilson: or debianplanet |
| 04:20.48 | Hill-o-beans | thanks |
| 04:20.53 | noflex | np |
| 04:21.37 | mwilson | mickeyks: 'cept I won't dirty myself by interacting with slashcrap. And I think you can count the times DP published an non-complimentary article on the fingers of a quadruple amputee. |
| 04:22.32 | helix | hmm |
| 04:22.50 | mwilson | DP is usually very slanted. |
| 04:23.22 | mwilson | That's what it's all about. It is, after all, a pro-Debian site. |
| 04:23.24 | greycat | try propping a book under the corner of your monitor |
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| 04:24.18 | mickeyks | mwilson: true, but they do sometimes publish items to the effect of "is such-and-such a cause for concern? do we need to rethink blah blah blah?" |
| 04:24.30 | mickeyks | hi helix |
| 04:24.38 | helix | hi |
| 04:24.45 | mickeyks | greycat: ha. just got that. |
| 04:24.47 | mwilson | hey, I didn't see you come in. |
| 04:24.51 | mwilson | g'evening |
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| 04:25.51 | mwilson | And obviously Erinn is mad at me again. |
| 04:26.23 | atrus | can anybody think of a name for one of the programs that lets you connect to/view an existing X server session? |
| 04:27.12 | Dr_Willis | atrus, an existing X session - Not sure there is one. |
| 04:27.29 | Dr_Willis | You can set up VNC to do a similer thing however. But it would be its own new X session. |
| 04:27.33 | peterS | mwilson: I doubt it |
| 04:27.40 | atrus | i know there is, i've used (at least) one that exported an existing x display as a vnc server |
| 04:27.49 | Dr_Willis | There are some special X servers that use-share with vnc. |
| 04:28.01 | Dr_Willis | Not seen that one then atrus and ive seenthat question asked a lot :() |
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| 04:28.21 | mickeyks | mwilson: she's probably just being pensive |
| 04:28.30 | struggler | hello |
| 04:28.33 | atrus | searching for "x" on google or apt-get search is counter-productive :) |
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| 04:29.10 | vladkao | atrus: if you specify "x" onlt, yes |
| 04:29.15 | Dr_Willis | I think KDE and redhat may have that X desktop shareing stuff. but it may need to be enabled beforhand. |
| 04:29.17 | vladkao | s/ont/only |
| 04:29.18 | *** part/#debian tsocks (~pppd@200.55.154.78) |
| 04:29.36 | mickeyks | why do new yorkers honk their horns during a traffic jam? |
| 04:29.37 | humbolt | OK, radeon dri + tvout is now working. but tvout is only working as root! I mean, even if I enable tvout as root and then start a movie with mplayer -vo vesa it does not work. |
| 04:29.39 | atrus | debian package "rfb" looks promising |
| 04:29.47 | lex | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:30.00 | lex | I need the ibm ppc jre....no fancy packages for that in debianppc afaik |
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| 04:30.25 | mickeyks | lex: i think there's a dummy package for that purpose |
| 04:30.39 | tcsetattr | the term I'd look for is "detach" (and "reattach"). since what you're asking for is analogous to detach and reattach with screen |
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| 04:31.23 | zarchne | lex: apt-cache search java dummy |
| 04:31.26 | voltagex | ah crap I missed the answer to my question about irssi |
| 04:31.48 | humbolt | mickeyks: sorry to disturb you. who was I talking to about radeon before? |
| 04:32.12 | voltagex | how can I set irssi to autoconnect to irc.au.freenode.net and identify? |
| 04:32.14 | lex | zarchne: not in debianppc |
| 04:32.40 | voltagex | and also how can I print manpages? |
| 04:32.57 | peterS | voltagex: a few irssi config sections will do it (~/.irssi/config): |
| 04:33.04 | zarchne | lex: ah |
| 04:33.26 | voltagex | peterS: I got confused when I looked at that file... |
| 04:33.30 | zarchne | lex: get the source? |
| 04:33.40 | lex | MHM |
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| 04:33.44 | lex | a good point it is |
| 04:33.54 | peterS | voltagex: servers = ( { address = "irc.au.freenode.net"; chatnet = "freenode"; port = "6667"; } ........ ); |
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| 04:33.57 | lex | although it does make you wonder why would a dummy package be arch dependant |
| 04:33.58 | peterS | voltagex: for one thing |
| 04:34.22 | zarchne | lex: yeah |
| 04:34.25 | struggler | I am trying to build mol 0.9.70 from source. The make fails with cant find kernel source /usr/src/linux, so I ln -s kernel-source-2.4.18 linux and that error goes away but now it fails with unconfigured headers. The message says no autoconf.h, which there isn't in the source tree, but the file does exist in the header tree. I can't link back to the header tree from the source tree because there are already files in the source tree direct |
| 04:34.26 | peterS | voltagex: wait, I think you want an autoconnect = "yes"; or something, in there, as well |
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| 04:34.54 | helix | hmm |
| 04:34.55 | peterS | voltagex: or possibly, the autoconnect part goes in the next section - I forget ... : |
| 04:35.00 | voltagex | ok |
| 04:35.07 | mwilson | struggler: MOL needs a CONFIGURED source tree, not a virgin one. |
| 04:35.07 | esop | voltagex: there is a good example of how to do just that... auto connect and identify in /usr/doc/irssi*/startup-HOWTO.html |
| 04:35.19 | mickeyks | humbolt: i have no idea man |
| 04:35.30 | peterS | voltagex: chatnets = { freenode = { ... autoconnect = "true"; autosendcmd = "/^msg nickserv identify blahblah"; }; } |
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| 04:35.41 | mwilson | struggler: Oh, wait... autoconf.h. Don't know what I was thinking. |
| 04:35.48 | struggler | so I need to build the kernel to configure it? |
| 04:36.05 | *** join/#debian o_alt3rna_open (~knoppix@pppD107.elo.com.br) |
| 04:36.05 | *** part/#debian gerrynjr (~gerrynjr@gerrynjr.developer.gentoo) |
| 04:36.05 | lex | there should just be an 'alternative' for java |
| 04:36.10 | voltagex | peterS: thanks |
| 04:36.12 | peterS | voltagex: you should already have those sections in your .irssi/config - just edit to suit - particularly the "address" part in the servers section, and the 'autoconnect' and 'autosendcmd' in the chatnets section |
| 04:36.14 | o_alt3rna_open | # |
| 04:36.16 | mwilson | lex: Why? |
| 04:36.25 | mickeyks | zarchne: maybe there isn't one for any arch, i'm not sure |
| 04:36.42 | *** join/#debian overcode (~overcode@c-66-229-180-139.we.client2.attbi.com) |
| 04:36.43 | atrus | Dr_Willis: got it... debian package 'x11vnc' successfully exports a pre-existing X display as a vnc server. |
| 04:36.49 | *** join/#debian maher (~maher@charter-241-158.caltech.edu) |
| 04:36.59 | mickeyks | mwilson: he can't find a dummy java package for ppc |
| 04:37.39 | overcode | my most recent dist-upgrade (on a machine that's been sitting unused for many months) was nice enough to change my default window manager to gnome and set xdm to launch at startup. This is undesired. Unfortunately, x-window-system depends on xdm, so I can't just remove it. What's the "correct" way to get rid of xdm? |
| 04:37.47 | helix | is there a way to have different profiles for terminals *besides* g-t and konsole? |
| 04:37.52 | zarchne | lex: I think they based java-virtual-machine-dummy on kaffe, which may only be for i386? |
| 04:37.59 | mwilson | helix: xterm can do it. |
| 04:38.08 | greycat | mickeyks: perhaps he can build one with equivs |
| 04:38.12 | helix | mwilson: how? i wonder if urxvt can.. |
| 04:38.13 | mwilson | helix: I imagine rxvt probably has a way. |
| 04:38.20 | zarchne | lex: or they just weren't thinking. |
| 04:38.23 | helix | mwilson: well, i'd imagine they're quite similar.. |
| 04:38.26 | mwilson | helix: By using different class names. |
| 04:38.29 | maher | overcode: just remove xdm x-window-system is a meta package |
| 04:38.40 | mwilson | helix: Then you just tell xterm what class to be. |
| 04:38.40 | mickeyks | lex: yeah, what greycat said |
| 04:38.47 | peterS | mwilson: yeah, any x resource using app should support that mechanism |
| 04:38.58 | peterS | mwilson: including rxvt |
| 04:39.13 | helix | actually, i should just be able to define a keybinding that launches rxvt with -bg and -fg etc. |
| 04:39.15 | *** join/#debian glick (~glick@68-174-95-83.ucwphilly.rr.com) |
| 04:39.16 | helix | that's all i really need |
| 04:39.16 | mwilson | peterS: I dunno... rxvt and its children are *WEIRD*. |
| 04:39.26 | peterS | mwilson: well, true (: |
| 04:39.28 | mwilson | helix: Yah, you can do that easily. |
| 04:39.40 | mickeyks | vim is cool |
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| 04:39.56 | glick | excuse me, are there any programs out there that will convert one filesystem to another without erasing the data? for example i want to change my ext3 filesystems to reiserfs |
| 04:40.05 | mwilson | helix: That's how I do things with xterm. |
| 04:40.16 | maher | glick: no |
| 04:40.18 | mwilson | glick: Why? You don't like your data? |
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| 04:40.24 | helix | mwilson: yeah |
| 04:40.46 | glick | i heard reiserfs was way faster then ext3 |
| 04:40.55 | glick | and nearly all my filesystems are ext3 |
| 04:41.09 | chifinet | trying to do an apt-get install kernel-image, however when i edit lilo.conf and put in the initrd=initrd.img line it doesn't seem to load the new kernel, at least uname -a still shows old kernel |
| 04:41.10 | mwilson | <action name="execute"><execute>sh -c $AABIGTERM</execute></action> |
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| 04:41.29 | mwilson | rei $ echo $AABIGTERM |
| 04:41.29 | mwilson | xterm -fa monotype.com:minspace=true -fs 12 |
| 04:41.37 | maher | glick: why not make a spare partition reiser and then benchmark to see if its worth it |
| 04:41.43 | *** part/#debian struggler (icechat5@h19.167.40.162.ip.alltel.net) |
| 04:41.44 | peterS | mwilson: xml. cute. real cute. |
| 04:41.57 | rbd | has anyone had any problems with subversion (from the debs - unstable and testing) freezing up when making a DB, or when doing any kind of operation to a repository? |
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| 04:42.06 | mwilson | peterS: Personally, I despise XML. But that's what openbox writes its configuration files in. |
| 04:42.13 | glick | maher: eh i dont really no how to benchmark and all i just heard from people that ext3 is slow as hell and that reiser is MUCH faster |
| 04:42.14 | peterS | mwilson: openbox blows, then (: |
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| 04:42.31 | mwilson | peterS: I'm willing to deal with it. |
| 04:42.33 | *** join/#debian voltagex (~voltagex@54.cust23.nsw.dsl.ozemail.com.au) |
| 04:42.52 | maher | glick: well just make a spare one reiser - do what you normally do on it and see if its faster |
| 04:42.54 | voltagex | peterS: autosendcmd works but autoconnect doesn't |
| 04:43.06 | glick | maher: yeah i dont really have a spare partition |
| 04:43.08 | peterS | voltagex: I gave you bad information. what I said at first was actually right |
| 04:43.24 | peterS | voltagex: the autoconnect = "yes"; goes up in the first section, the 'servers' section |
| 04:43.30 | maher | glick: well you're going to have to back up and restore to convert somehow... |
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| 04:43.46 | glick | is it worth it to update to reiserfs? |
| 04:43.49 | mwilson | I really need to see if Sid's logcheck/logtail are no longer b0rken. |
| 04:43.51 | zarchne | glick: do you work with a large number of small files? |
| 04:43.52 | peterS | voltagex: I looked it up, saw that I'd guessed wrong, and then forgot to alert you to this fact |
| 04:44.02 | glick | zarchne: i dont know |
| 04:44.06 | maher | glick: depends on what you use your discs for - that's why i would test first to see |
| 04:44.10 | voltagex | peterS: ok |
| 04:44.19 | glick | maher: how small is small? |
| 04:44.21 | voltagex | how do I print manpages? |
| 04:44.27 | alex-i | What would ppl in Debian think about init scripts that produce colored output? |
| 04:44.32 | zarchne | glick: smaller than 1k. |
| 04:44.39 | glick | yeah no not really |
| 04:44.44 | glick | zarchne: not really |
| 04:44.44 | overcode | and what's the correct way to switch window managers? I installed wmaker a long time ago, and it's been replaced with gnome. However, /etc/alternatives/x-window-manager still points to wmaker. |
| 04:44.45 | mwilson | voltagex: $ man -t $MANPAGE | lpr |
| 04:44.55 | peterS | voltagex: gzip -cd /usr/share/man/man1/ls.1.gz | groff -Tps | lpr ? |
| 04:44.57 | maher | overcode: update-alternatives |
| 04:44.58 | mwilson | overcode: Forget the alternative exists. |
| 04:44.58 | *** part/#debian ziggy (~tarinmd@bgm-66-24-40-97.stny.rr.com) |
| 04:45.05 | mwilson | overcode: Don't mess with it. |
| 04:45.10 | peterS | voltagex: well, groff -Tps -man, I suppose |
| 04:45.12 | voltagex | alex-i: puuuuurdy! |
| 04:45.17 | voltagex | ok |
| 04:45.31 | peterS | voltagex: I haven't done that in a long time, as I don't have a printer handy |
| 04:45.33 | zarchne | glick: I'm a reiser fan, but I don't think you should attempt it. |
| 04:45.46 | overcode | maher: yes, that's how I set it in the first place. It's being ignored. |
| 04:45.48 | Penix | alex-i: complete waste of time |
| 04:45.52 | mwilson | peterS: Ew, yours is the hard way. |
| 04:46.00 | overcode | mwilson: ok, so how do I select a WM? |
| 04:46.03 | glick | damn me! |
| 04:46.07 | glick | ok, thanks |
| 04:46.09 | peterS | mwilson: mine produces nicer output, though |
| 04:46.22 | mwilson | Yours should produce the same output as mine. |
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| 04:46.40 | peterS | mwilson: yours produces plain text, does it not? mine does postscript, with proportional fonts, etc. |
| 04:46.55 | alex-i | Penix: yes, I figured that autodetecting dependencies would be too... (I felt how it's easy to manage just symlinks ! ;)) |
| 04:47.06 | mwilson | peterS: man man, read '-t' |
| 04:47.13 | cafuego | fweiss: Please switch that irritating auto-away off. |
| 04:47.52 | peterS | mwilson: ah, I see. didn't notice your -t |
| 04:47.53 | helix | oh no |
| 04:48.00 | helix | i *know* openbox did not just fuck me over like this |
| 04:48.05 | mickeyks | peterS: what wm do you use |
| 04:48.09 | peterS | helix: nah, couldn't have |
| 04:48.11 | peterS | mickeyks: screen |
| 04:48.12 | mwilson | helix: Went back to defaults, did it? :) |
| 04:48.12 | helix | grrrrr |
| 04:48.13 | overcode | nevermind, just added a new .xsession |
| 04:48.14 | zarchne | glick: It (reiser3, anyway) is even slower in some cases. For large files (10's or 100's of MB) XFS would be the choice. |
| 04:48.22 | cafuego | helix: Are you having the worst WM day ever, today? |
| 04:48.23 | voltagex | errm I don't know what my printer's called |
| 04:48.23 | helix | mwilson: not only that - my theme altogether *DISAPPEARED* |
| 04:48.26 | helix | cafuego: YES |
| 04:48.29 | mickeyks | peterS: i had a feeling you'd say something like that |
| 04:48.32 | helix | fuck, i hate dist-upgrade |
| 04:48.37 | helix | hate hate hate |
| 04:48.42 | dan2 | dist-upgrade is bad |
| 04:48.44 | voltagex | how do I cat the manpage > /dev/lp0? |
| 04:48.49 | mwilson | helix: Don't sweat it... if libxml returns an error, openbox dumps processing rc.xml |
| 04:49.04 | mwilson | helix: Just undo whatever change you made. |
| 04:49.04 | helix | mwilson: why would my theme disappear though? |
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| 04:49.20 | dan2 | voltagex: nroff -mman <location of manpage>|lp |
| 04:49.22 | mwilson | helix: Because your theme is specified by... <drum roll> ... rc.xml |
| 04:49.28 | helix | bah |
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| 04:49.58 | mwilson | helix: Prolly the keybinding you created is b0rken somehow. |
| 04:50.01 | peterS | wonderful thing about xml and xml parsers. a file is all or nothing |
| 04:50.04 | helix | oh crap. |
| 04:50.09 | helix | all my keybindings are gone too? |
| 04:50.09 | hanasaki | anyway to lookup bugs w/o a webbrowser? |
| 04:50.11 | voltagex | ah, got it working |
| 04:50.14 | alex-i | voltagex: why not lpr, and you need to do this with plain text or better convert it to ps |
| 04:50.14 | mwilson | helix: Yep. |
| 04:50.18 | helix | nooooooooo |
| 04:50.19 | peterS | it's great to optimise for the computer rather than for the human editing the file |
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| 04:50.33 | mwilson | helix: But they're only gone as long as you're not processing the rc file. You've not LOST anything. |
| 04:50.46 | voltagex | alex-i: I used lpr |
| 04:50.54 | mwilson | helix: Just undo the edit you made. |
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| 04:51.01 | voltagex | doh! coulda just printed it from kde man:/ |
| 04:51.01 | helix | mwilson: how? |
| 04:51.12 | *** part/#debian struggler (icechat5@h19.167.40.162.ip.alltel.net) |
| 04:51.12 | alex-i | voltagex: e.g. It's generally not a good idea to cat raw text (esp manpage, formatted I assume, which is not a plain text) to /dev/lp0 --- at least a simple filter is needed |
| 04:51.22 | mwilson | helix: Well, at worst, open the file again in the editor and undo it by hand. |
| 04:51.33 | helix | mwilson: none of my other keybindings are in there |
| 04:51.34 | tcsetattr | hanasaki, you mean like http://bugs.debian.org/ |
| 04:51.36 | helix | including the one i added |
| 04:51.39 | mwilson | helix: If you've got it under revision control, just revert it. |
| 04:51.53 | voltagex | alex-i: I used man -t <page> | lpr |
| 04:52.04 | helix | well, if i had it under revision control, i wouldn't be complaining now, would i? |
| 04:52.06 | mickeyks | mwilson: how can i have more than one help buffer open at a time |
| 04:52.11 | hanasaki | tcsetattr: yes.. but i dont have a web browser instllaled.. its all messed up and i am trying to find if there is a bug in experimental version |
| 04:52.13 | *** join/#debian buzzzz (~buzzzz@203-217-32-89.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 04:52.14 | mwilson | helix: It should be using the default menu, too, which will let you launch an xterm. Failing that, switch to a different VT, log in, edit the file, and restart the WM.' |
| 04:52.16 | zarchne | It's time for another episode of Unix Brain Damage. |
| 04:52.43 | tcsetattr | oh, I missed that 3l33t "w/o" abbreviation. |
| 04:52.57 | *** part/#debian EraserMan (heffel@ip68-105-185-247.dc.dc.cox.net) |
| 04:53.20 | mwilson | helix: .xsession-errors should be telling you what's wrong with the file... openbox outputs parse errors. |
| 04:53.27 | nevyn | meh I prefer keword anyway |
| 04:54.00 | alex-i | voltagex: Well, your question is answered, right ;) |
| 04:54.04 | mwilson | helix: I highly recommend RCS + vim RCS plugin. |
| 04:54.09 | peterS | mwilson: does openbox have mechanisms for writing you a new config file graphically, or something? |
| 04:54.15 | mwilson | peterS: No. |
| 04:54.19 | hanasaki | anyone have the mozilla-firefox from experiemental working? |
| 04:54.25 | peterS | mwilson: then it shouldn't rewrite your file behind your back, right? |
| 04:54.27 | *** join/#debian Fireman (Faruk@81.213.169.194) |
| 04:54.29 | mwilson | peterS: Well, there's obconfig, I suppose. |
| 04:54.30 | Lisz | HOLAA |
| 04:54.31 | greycat | if it worked it would be in sid. |
| 04:54.38 | helix | mwilson: it uses my menu |
| 04:54.46 | mwilson | peterS: it doesn't rewrite it. That's my point. It didn't, Erinn did. |
| 04:54.47 | helix | this is totally stupid behavior |
| 04:54.53 | hanasaki | greycat: thnaks |
| 04:54.56 | peterS | mwilson: oh, ok. she said it did. |
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| 04:55.00 | helix | mwilson: so why are _all_ of my changes gone? |
| 04:55.00 | hanasaki | bbl |
| 04:55.04 | *** part/#debian hanasaki (df@CPE-65-30-41-47.kc.rr.com) |
| 04:55.14 | Nurbs | hm, runs fine here. oh well. |
| 04:55.23 | peterS | mwilson: and I found that puzzling, because apps that rewrite config files behind your back are not the sorts of apps you tend to use and like (: |
| 04:55.54 | mwilson | helix: Because when openbox asked libxml to parse rc.xml, it got an error. So it tossed what it had interpreted of it, and instead used the default one, which it knew was safe. Your own rc.xml is safe. |
| 04:56.24 | helix | mwilson: err, so when i look in ~/.config/openbox/rc.xml, everything should be there. is this what you're saying? |
| 04:56.29 | helix | mwilson: because it isn't. |
| 04:56.45 | mwilson | helix: If it's not, that's due to something YOU did. |
| 04:56.52 | helix | mwilson: i didn't do anything! |
| 04:56.57 | helix | mwilson: i just added a new XML entry |
| 04:57.00 | helix | that's _it_ |
| 04:57.04 | helix | this fucking wm is braindead |
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| 04:57.12 | mwilson | helix: Ok, what made it happen isn't important... move your backup file back. |
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| 04:57.26 | mwilson | helix: You haven't disabled vim's ability to make backup files, have you? |
| 04:57.43 | helix | no |
| 04:57.53 | mwilson | Ok, then you still have your rc.xml |
| 04:58.01 | mwilson | Most likely as rc.xml~ |
| 04:58.19 | peterS | vim makes those backup files by default? |
| 04:58.24 | peterS | I thought you had to enable it |
| 04:58.28 | mwilson | peterS: Debian's vim does. |
| 04:58.30 | peterS | Lisz: no /msg, please |
| 04:58.50 | Lisz | OK |
| 04:59.01 | tcsetattr | I hate editors that leave backup files lying around... keep a backup while writing the new contents, in case the write fails and you have to restore it, but after the ZZ is done I don't want to see my directory more cluttered than it was before |
| 04:59.14 | peterS | tcsetattr: I feel the same way |
| 04:59.19 | mwilson | helix: I don't know your vim configuration... the backup file should be in the same directory or else it's in the dir you've told vim to keep them in. |
| 04:59.21 | helix | mwilson: all i have is rc.xml.swp |
| 04:59.21 | voltagex | doh! paper jam |
| 04:59.22 | peterS | tcsetattr: and yet ... every now and then ... I wish I had left that feature on (: |
| 04:59.30 | helix | mwilson: ..but it appears to be a binary file |
| 04:59.33 | voltagex | helix: switch to xfce :D |
| 04:59.38 | mwilson | helix: Is vim still running somewhere? |
| 04:59.41 | helix | window managers can suck my ass |
| 04:59.45 | tcsetattr | if there's any doubt, I use :w and don't exit. Then test the file. If it fails, I go back to the editor, which is still running, and press 'u' a few hundred times :) |
| 04:59.49 | helix | this is so stupid |
| 05:00.13 | mwilson | helix: You're overreacting. You never overreact. Are you OK? |
| 05:00.14 | tcsetattr | helix, vim -r rc.xml.swp to recover where you left off editing when it died |
| 05:00.27 | peterS | tcsetattr: hey, good answer |
| 05:00.32 | tcsetattr | the vim -r will tell you exactly what to do next |
| 05:00.43 | sussudio | mwilson: she probably tried gnome 2 or something |
| 05:00.45 | helix | tcsetattr: i love you |
| 05:00.55 | mwilson | tcsetattr, peterS: I keep backup files in ~/.vim/backup, and have a cron that tosses anything older than 30 days. |
| 05:00.57 | helix | mwilson: no, everything has fucking broken today |
| 05:01.06 | voltagex | *groooooooooup hug* |
| 05:01.26 | peterS | mwilson: that works |
| 05:01.36 | *** part/#debian telme (~non@c-24-8-57-124.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:01.40 | peterS | mwilson: does it do like emacs, and name files with full pathnames, in there, to avoid conflicts? |
| 05:02.06 | mwilson | peterS: No, more's the pity. I think you can get it to do that, but it's never been important enough to me that I investigate it. |
| 05:02.13 | helix | first braindead konqueror rewrote my x-www-browser symlink and now this stupid shit |
| 05:02.15 | peterS | mwilson: ah, ok |
| 05:02.16 | helix | bleh |
| 05:02.24 | tcsetattr | and I seem to recall that Debian's default vim configuration with backup files breaks crontab -e ... or maybe that was redhat |
| 05:02.34 | mwilson | That was DeadRat. |
| 05:02.52 | mwilson | helix: Why do you care where the alternative points? |
| 05:03.14 | mwilson | helix: Unless you're using Gnome/KDE/XFCE, it's not used for much. |
| 05:03.22 | helix | mwilson: because some applications use it |
| 05:03.28 | helix | mwilson: it caused great annoyance |
| 05:03.39 | helix | in any case, it shouldn't be overriding my defaults |
| 05:03.59 | mwilson | helix: Then set the alternative to manual. |
| 05:04.16 | fearl | helix: haha @ 'it caused great annoyance' after all the disgruntled comments 8) |
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| 05:05.04 | helix | fearl: sorry, let me say it in a language you understand: yo, that shit was mad wack bro |
| 05:05.13 | fearl | whack* |
| 05:05.14 | peterS | hehe |
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| 05:05.20 | helix | fearl: "whack" is a verb |
| 05:05.28 | mickeyks | ha |
| 05:05.31 | mwilson | helix: This really isn't the window managers fault. If rc.xml isn't there at all, what do you expect it to do? I thought you were saying the file was there, but contained an error. Sounds more like vim bombed when it tried to write it. |
| 05:05.43 | peterS | Lisz: I said, no /msg |
| 05:05.49 | helix | mwilson: sorry, :w doesn't usually bomb |
| 05:05.50 | fearl | helix: umm, wack isn't a word at all :/ |
| 05:05.52 | helix | the file was there |
| 05:05.52 | voltagex | aaaaaaaah how do I cancel an lpr print job? |
| 05:06.02 | helix | fearl: most "slang" doesn't actually consist of real words, FYI |
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| 05:06.13 | mickeyks | fearl: it's short for wacky |
| 05:06.15 | peterS | fearl: look up 'slang' in the dictionary and be enlightened, in other words |
| 05:06.24 | fearl | helix: damnit, let me correct you in peace, I don't get to much 8) |
| 05:06.29 | helix | sod off |
| 05:06.40 | tcsetattr | voltagex, lpq ; lprm jobnumber |
| 05:06.46 | fearl | helix: haha |
| 05:06.51 | peterS | was Lisz a bot, do you suppose? |
| 05:06.52 | *** join/#debian Pause (Pizza@203-219-223-215-syd-ts27-2600.tpgi.com.au) |
| 05:06.55 | *** join/#debian mocat (~jiger0gr9@203.23.200.55) |
| 05:06.56 | mwilson | helix: Do try RCS... it looks primitive, but it's surprisingly useful. |
| 05:07.22 | *** join/#debian isbiten_ (~isbiten@h83n1fls31o280.telia.com) |
| 05:07.26 | *** join/#debian Security (~starlife_@AC98352B.ipt.aol.com) |
| 05:07.27 | peterS | he/she/it didn't seem to have much actual purpose, if so |
| 05:07.35 | helix | peterS: what did its msg to you say? |
| 05:07.53 | helix | mwilson: yeah, as i get more and more config files, it's becoming an attractive idea |
| 05:07.55 | peterS | helix: 4 separate msgs. nothing of consequence. the last two were in all caps and spanish, or something |
| 05:08.04 | helix | peterS: show me :) |
| 05:08.07 | fearl | mickeyks: its actually not even used anymore, nor is 'mad' used in that manner, I desided against being too nit-picky though |
| 05:08.25 | helix | you decide, i deride |
| 05:08.35 | *** join/#debian icewalker (~James@adsl-0-228-240.chs.bellsouth.net) |
| 05:08.55 | mickeyks | fearl: they are both used in my universe |
| 05:08.55 | peterS | helix: dcc |
| 05:09.30 | fearl | 'dat shiz whack yo' is what helix should have said, if she was going for "correct ebonics"... |
| 05:09.32 | helix | oh, i see |
| 05:09.42 | helix | fearl: i reiterate: whack is a verb |
| 05:09.50 | helix | not an adjective |
| 05:09.55 | voltagex | fo shizzle |
| 05:09.59 | *** join/#debian Show (~CLuB@62.29.56.16) |
| 05:10.07 | *** part/#debian incuo (~jsr@bobillot-3-82-67-147-69.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 05:10.10 | fearl | helix: eh, thats how its used... |
| 05:10.11 | helix | peterS: heh, this is funny |
| 05:10.14 | helix | it's |
| 05:10.21 | peterS | helix: I don't think I understand it |
| 05:10.22 | *** join/#debian Gokee212 (~Gokee2@4.242.9.149) |
| 05:10.30 | mwilson | helix: rcs-menu.vim is here: http://lanzarotta.tripod.com/vim.html |
| 05:10.38 | helix | peterS: it says it's sorry for bothering you because it knows you're very busy, but what is everyone doing? |
| 05:10.45 | helix | peterS: also, it says it understands english very well |
| 05:10.47 | peterS | helix: oh, hehe |
| 05:10.57 | fearl | helix: damnit, you care entirely too much about grammer, you should be a literature teacher or something... |
| 05:11.04 | helix | grammar |
| 05:11.09 | helix | fearl: this is basic 3rd grade stuff |
| 05:11.11 | *** join/#debian LoveBaby-and-Sti (~MaTeriaL_@219.95.139.13) |
| 05:11.13 | tcsetattr | Who votes we need to get Bill Cosby to teach these people to speak English? |
| 05:11.18 | helix | i don't care "too much" |
| 05:11.24 | fearl | helix: this is also IRC :/ |
| 05:11.25 | *** join/#debian Comrade (~Fiesta@136-112.a2f.dsl.net4all.net) |
| 05:11.38 | helix | fearl: don't make excuses for yourself |
| 05:11.56 | peterS | helix: what else can he do but make excuses? actually *improve* himself? the horror |
| 05:12.06 | fearl | helix: if you can comprehend, corrections should be unnecissary |
| 05:12.15 | helix | fearl: you're hurting my eyes |
| 05:12.24 | fearl | helix: /ignore? |
| 05:12.31 | helix | despite being a 9.8 on hotornot.com |
| 05:12.38 | helix | fearl: /ignore isn't really ideal for ops |
| 05:12.43 | *** join/#debian Simsi (~if_you_me@dsl81-215-43625.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 05:12.51 | fearl | helix: 98% @ facethejury* |
| 05:13.00 | helix | my mistake |
| 05:13.15 | peterS | tcsetattr: couldn't hurt |
| 05:13.29 | mwilson | helix: My problem is that I make horrendous checkin comments. My last commit to .bashrc says "misc changes", but I changed like a third of the file according to the line count. :) |
| 05:13.35 | Comrade | can anyone help me with this one i compiled 2.6.7 kernel and on boot i get VFS: Cannot open root device "301" or unknown-block(3,1) please append a correct "root=" boot option Kernel panic: VFS: Unable to mount root on fs on unknown-block(3,1) |
| 05:13.39 | helix | mwilson: heh |
| 05:13.44 | fearl | helix: haha @ you knowing about hotornot though 8) |
| 05:13.46 | helix | mwilson: i'd expect more detail from you :) |
| 05:13.53 | Comrade | i know its a single thing i need to enable in the config |
| 05:13.58 | Comrade | (menuconfig) |
| 05:14.07 | mwilson | helix: Oh, some of them are quite long. |
| 05:14.19 | helix | mwilson: which rcs? |
| 05:14.31 | mwilson | helix: Just good ol' RCS itself. |
| 05:14.52 | *** join/#debian lx_jakal (~ap@tux1.informatik.uni-kl.de) |
| 05:15.28 | mickeyks | mwilson: that guy's bufexplorer plugin looks kinda cool too |
| 05:15.28 | tcsetattr | Comrade, for block(3,1) you need IDE disk support, some kind of partition table support (most likely MSDOS partition table), and the appropriate fs (ext2, ext3, reiser, ...) |
| 05:15.28 | helix | mwilson: well, it would be nice to be able to setup a mirror for this stuff as well, instead of randomly uploading config files to my website(s) whenever i remember to |
| 05:15.28 | *** join/#debian Cyis (~undrgrid@sjc-gw1.undergrid.net) |
| 05:15.49 | mwilson | helix: My problem with CVS is that you have to have the file checked out in order to have a copy of it. RCS just makes the file R/O so you can't modify it and keeps the *history* elsewhere. |
| 05:15.59 | Cyis | anyone running XF86 in multihead xinerama mode? |
| 05:16.00 | Comrade | think it might be the dos table then |
| 05:16.02 | *** join/#debian issapurple (~issapurpl@ppp-65-65-30-54.dialup.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 05:16.02 | *** join/#debian LogouT (CADI___@82.135.128.30) |
| 05:16.04 | Comrade | thx |
| 05:16.07 | peterS | mwilson: your problem is my preference |
| 05:16.08 | Comrade | gonna check that |
| 05:16.09 | mwilson | Cyis: Yes. |
| 05:16.15 | peterS | mwilson: I don't like how rcs only lets a single person have a checkout at a time |
| 05:16.19 | peterS | mwilson: cumbersome |
| 05:16.33 | Cyis | mwilson: just did a fresh install and xinerama isn't working right now... it's just mirroring |
| 05:16.40 | Cyis | any idea? |
| 05:16.46 | mwilson | peterS: My configuration files are not a distributed project with more than one person working on them. :) |
| 05:16.53 | mwilson | Cyis: No, it's not. |
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| 05:17.06 | peterS | mwilson: mine either. but having the live file implies having it checked out. and I never remember to check it out in the read-only mode |
| 05:17.07 | mwilson | Cyis: Xinerama cannot "mirror". |
| 05:17.30 | Cyis | mwilson: well a "mirror" effect is what I'm getting... identical display on both monitors |
| 05:17.42 | helix | despite having my (mostly) correct rc.xml back, my keybindings still don't work |
| 05:17.44 | mwilson | Cyis: Then you're not using Xinerama. |
| 05:18.13 | fearl | mwilson: I think that comes with 'xinerama isn't working right now'.... |
| 05:18.15 | *** join/#debian hestviken (~leslieann@co-colspgs-u2-c5c-214.clspco.adelphia.net) |
| 05:18.30 | Cyis | mwilson: gdm config is calling X with "+xinerama" as well the XF86Config-4 has under the "ServerFlags" to enable "Xinerama" |
| 05:18.50 | helix | why don't my keybindings work now? |
| 05:18.54 | helix | gah. |
| 05:18.57 | mwilson | Cyis: I'm happy for you, I suppose. Have you looked at the log file to see what's actually going on rather than assuming? |
| 05:19.04 | Cyis | I didn't have half this problem with my multihead display at work... only difference is work is a nvidia driver and this is radeon |
| 05:19.04 | mwilson | helix: ~/.xsession-errors |
| 05:19.05 | *** join/#debian noflex (~Dan@D40AE7DE.rev.stofanet.dk) |
| 05:19.10 | peterS | mwilson: you beat me to it (: |
| 05:19.32 | mwilson | helix: openbox will tell you what it thinks is wrong if you give it half a chance. |
| 05:19.36 | peterS | Cyis: that's a major difference. different drivers are, or are not, xinerama-aware |
| 05:19.44 | hestviken | how to create a new vt on CTRL+ALT+F9 for example? |
| 05:19.49 | hestviken | mknod ..... |
| 05:20.02 | openbox | please don't hate me! |
| 05:20.03 | Cyis | peterS: it used to run properly a year ago |
| 05:20.05 | helix | openbox: why did you do this to me? |
| 05:20.11 | tcsetattr | hestviken, /dev/tty9 probably already exists. You need to add a getty in /etc/inittab |
| 05:20.17 | *** join/#debian Yapimci (~Annie-27@dsl81-215-11544.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 05:20.22 | openbox | openbox: i want to help - I'm just confused... |
| 05:20.28 | Cyis | but then I gave my girlfriend the matching monitor for her computer ... just got her a new monitor so I got it back |
| 05:20.29 | helix | hahaha |
| 05:20.29 | sussudio | !crush openbox |
| 05:20.31 | mwilson | Cyis: Sounds much more like you've told it to clone the display. READ the log file, find out what is actually going on. |
| 05:20.37 | dan2 | peterS: whats a program that will word wrap a text file |
| 05:20.45 | peterS | dan2: I think 'pr' can |
| 05:20.46 | mwilson | dan2: fmt |
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| 05:20.55 | dan2 | thanks |
| 05:21.07 | mwilson | dan2: par if you want to get more sophisticated. |
| 05:21.09 | Cyis | mwilson: log does show Xinerama enabled "(++) Xinerama: enabled" |
| 05:21.13 | mwilson | fmt is rather simple-minded |
| 05:21.30 | mickeyks | mwilson: :close actually eliminated the whole window. which is the right idea, but i wanted to close the file and keep the window open to do something else in |
| 05:21.32 | helix | maher: silly |
| 05:21.44 | maher | helix: yes... |
| 05:21.53 | tcsetattr | mickeyks, it sounds like you're looking for the :e command |
| 05:21.57 | helix | I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/home/helix/.config/openbox/menu.xml" |
| 05:22.01 | helix | bah. |
| 05:22.13 | helix | of course it fails, that file doesn't exist |
| 05:22.15 | mwilson | I thought you said it was using your menu? |
| 05:22.30 | mwilson | If that's not where you have your menu, then where is it? |
| 05:22.32 | helix | mwilson: i never had that file |
| 05:22.35 | Cyis | reading this XFree86 log file is like looking for a needle in a haystack |
| 05:22.41 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: perhaps. i'll have to reproduce the situation and see if it works |
| 05:22.41 | helix | /etc/xdg/openbox/debian-menu.xml |
| 05:22.42 | helix | etc. |
| 05:22.54 | peterS | what is xdg? |
| 05:22.55 | mwilson | Oh... you don't have a custom menu, you mean. |
| 05:23.04 | helix | mwilson: yeah, i just edit that file |
| 05:23.07 | mwilson | peterS: Another idiotic standard courtesy of f.d.o |
| 05:23.07 | peterS | Cyis: it takes practice to read a XFree86.0.log and know what bits you can skip past really quickly |
| 05:23.12 | helix | mwilson: but it's "custom", just not in .config/openbox |
| 05:23.13 | peterS | mwilson: sounds lovely |
| 05:23.27 | mwilson | peterS: It's not. It's actually incredibly stupid. |
| 05:23.31 | *** join/#debian DEMET` (~cool__gir@213.194.67.135) |
| 05:23.34 | peterS | mwilson: what does it mean? |
| 05:23.37 | helix | and wtf is my theme? |
| 05:23.39 | helix | bah |
| 05:23.54 | sadkas | zzzzzZZZZZZZZ |
| 05:24.35 | *** join/#debian dumitru (~dumitru@213.157.172.231) |
| 05:24.51 | hestviken | tcsetattr added getty's in inittab - how to use them w/out reboot? |
| 05:25.18 | Nurbs | init q |
| 05:25.18 | peterS | hestviken: telinit q |
| 05:25.26 | Nurbs | oops. +tel |
| 05:25.27 | Cyis | think I found something... |
| 05:25.30 | tcsetattr | or kill -1 1 |
| 05:25.51 | *** join/#debian alice444 (~vkd@pcp484046pcs.whtmrs01.md.comcast.net) |
| 05:26.00 | fearl | helix: hate is such a strong word :( |
| 05:26.04 | *** join/#debian alejandro_ (~alejandro@cm109-54.liwest.at) |
| 05:26.05 | mwilson | peterS: I forget what it stands for. |
| 05:26.21 | Cyis | has a (WW) RADEON(1): Only one monitor detected, Second screen will not be created |
| 05:26.22 | helix | fearl: leave me alone |
| 05:26.23 | *** join/#debian Gokee214 (~Gokee2@4.242.9.149) |
| 05:26.41 | alice444 | hey guys, off topic, but maybe someone knows, how'd they get a font to have that sunken look: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/pre1/13985-1.jpg |
| 05:26.50 | karsten | OT: what's it called when a labor union engages in a labor action by strictly adhering to all regulations? |
| 05:27.01 | *** join/#debian pw (~pw@cpc3-midd5-4-0-cust189.midd.cable.ntl.com) |
| 05:27.09 | Cyis | I've placed the XFree86.0.log and XF86Config-4 at http://www.undergrid.net/~undrgrid/xf86/ if someone can find something I'm missing I'd be appreciative |
| 05:27.24 | karsten | ...related to spam issues and nondelivery notification messages to spam messages. |
| 05:27.24 | maher | karsten: work to rule |
| 05:27.48 | karsten | maher: Thanks. |
| 05:27.53 | *** join/#debian gher (~gher@c-67-171-141-108.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:29.06 | mwilson | alice444: <shrug> It's just a shadow. |
| 05:29.43 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: e is just short for "exit", isn't it? that's what i was using |
| 05:30.11 | *** join/#debian dadedi (~industri@203.130.207.179) |
| 05:30.27 | alice444 | mwilson, I am talking about the text that says: Mozilla Firefox, the window title text |
| 05:30.28 | dadedi | hi |
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| 05:30.58 | alice444 | mwilson, oh, you mean a white shadow... 1 pix |
| 05:31.06 | karsten | alice444: One surefire method... |
| 05:31.12 | karsten | alice444: ...is to hold it underwater.... |
| 05:32.09 | *** join/#debian LARAx^in-sex^ (~java@81.213.183.9) |
| 05:32.29 | tcsetattr | mickeyks, :e is short for :edit |
| 05:32.30 | karsten | alice444: Likely the font or a control in that particular theme. You might want to contact the source of the screenshot directly. |
| 05:32.44 | alice444 | ok, thank you |
| 05:32.53 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: yeah, i just realized...in that case, no, not the command i'm looking for at all |
| 05:33.16 | mwilson | Cyis: It thinks there's no monitor on the second output. Fix that. |
| 05:33.21 | *** join/#debian dh0 (~dho@c-67-164-9-62.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:33.25 | *** join/#debian afRodit (~java@p508C2F9D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 05:33.32 | dh0 | how do i see how much space is left on a volume? |
| 05:33.49 | karsten | dh0: df |
| 05:33.54 | *** join/#debian LoveBaby-and-Sti (~playgirl_@dialup-95.69.221.203.acc07-wick-bne.comindico.com.au) |
| 05:33.54 | *** join/#debian YaLanci (~Timer@dialup-95.69.221.203.acc07-wick-bne.comindico.com.au) |
| 05:33.54 | tcsetattr | mickeyks, I'm really having trouble figuring out what you want. You want to "close" a window without closing it. You want to edit a different file in the same window, but :e (which does exactly that) is not good enough? |
| 05:34.00 | Cyis | mwilson: hmm... interesting... as my girlfriend just came over and ask'd me if seeing doublewas making me dizzy |
| 05:34.26 | *** join/#debian aMiRaL (~tR@219.95.173.136) |
| 05:34.40 | tcsetattr | mickeyks, sounds like you're redefining the problem so you can continue to complain |
| 05:34.51 | *** join/#debian Jazza (Jazza@c158.74.135.144.satellite.bigpond.com) |
| 05:34.59 | karsten | tcsetattr: /msg |
| 05:35.12 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: that's not true, but you're welcome to stop offering suggestions |
| 05:35.15 | tcsetattr | I don't /msg |
| 05:35.27 | tcsetattr | mickeyks, please explain what behavior you WANT and I'll tell you what command does it! |
| 05:35.42 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: probably best for everyone if we drop it |
| 05:35.45 | karsten | tcsetattr: Your call. |
| 05:36.00 | tcsetattr | I get annoyed when someone asks a question, I give an answer that exactly matches the given requirements, and then they say that I was wrong |
| 05:36.17 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: i didn't say you were wrong; i said it wasn't what i was looking for |
| 05:36.26 | tcsetattr | tell me what you're looking for then |
| 05:36.45 | *** join/#debian Europe (~MeTin@212.38.117.1) |
| 05:36.49 | mickeyks | tcsetattr: no thanks. i appreciate your trying to help; let's forget it. |
| 05:37.40 | *** join/#debian Bilal-UyuYoR (~iSLaM@202.154.243.81) |
| 05:37.56 | tcsetattr | ugh. even more annoying is when someone walks away from attempts to help them |
| 05:38.17 | karsten | tcsetattr: As I told you. |
| 05:38.48 | *** join/#debian majestix (majestix@pD9FF9D0F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 05:39.02 | *** join/#debian JaneLame (wtf@83.130.190.194) |
| 05:39.24 | mickeyks | :) |
| 05:39.24 | karsten | tcsetattr: /msg me. |
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| 05:39.35 | JaneLame | what to do with "system bootup in progress - please wait" msg? |
| 05:40.04 | JaneLame | i googled and found lots n lots of swedish shit. |
| 05:40.05 | deadcat | when i try to upgrade nvidia-glx, it tries to install kernel-image-2.4.26-1-386; any idea? |
| 05:40.12 | Cyis | maybe I'll just got buy another nvidia GeForce FX 5200... might be not be completely open-source but the driver works |
| 05:40.13 | JaneLame | i don't speak swedish, dammit |
| 05:40.14 | karsten | JaneLame: What level? JaneLame POST or after Linux kernel load? |
| 05:40.38 | JaneLame | karsten, it's loaded. the msg appears only when loging into KDE/gnome. |
| 05:40.46 | JaneLame | on console it works just fine |
| 05:40.50 | karsten | JaneLame: del /etc/nologin |
| 05:41.00 | mwilson | deadcat: It wants a matching set of kernel modules, in order to get the kernel modules, it has to install the kernel the modules were built against. |
| 05:41.00 | karsten | JaneLame: s/del/rm/ |
| 05:41.01 | *** mode/#debian [+l 633] by debhelper |
| 05:41.16 | *** join/#debian JTMarlin ([Cbbes7gpu@tribal.metalab.unc.edu) |
| 05:41.30 | peterS | !laugh at karsten |
| 05:41.30 | dpkg | HAHAHA! AH-HAHA! karsten just cracks me up! |
| 05:41.32 | deadcat | mwilson: i see. so i should just install that kernel-image anyway eh? |
| 05:41.37 | JTMarlin | anyone know of a yahoo or msn compatible client that supports webcam? |
| 05:41.37 | JaneLame | karsten, thanks, i'm gonna try that out |
| 05:41.39 | karsten | !shoot peterS |
| 05:41.43 | mwilson | deadcat: If you don't want it to try installing the kernel-image package, then build and install the kernel modules yourself (that's what nvidia-kernel-source) is for, then install the -glx package. |
| 05:41.59 | peterS | karsten: one of these days I still want to be shot with a German Lager. just to see what it feels like |
| 05:42.03 | karsten | JaneLame: Check to see if it exists. Normally it causes a similar message to appear, but should show up on console as well. Something doesn't smell right. |
| 05:42.14 | mickeyks | as opposed to those swedish lugers |
| 05:42.18 | karsten | peterS: From what I've heard... |
| 05:42.18 | *** join/#debian Samantha^_^ (~Keci@212.38.122.164) |
| 05:42.22 | karsten | peterS: ...it makes you hoppy. |
| 05:42.23 | deadcat | mwilson: ya. i build the nvidia-kernel myself. but the nvidia-glx was apt-get'ed. |
| 05:42.27 | peterS | karsten: hehe |
| 05:42.31 | mwilson | deadcat: So? |
| 05:42.34 | *** join/#debian eXpReSs (~Goqchenn@218.111.9.13) |
| 05:42.42 | deadcat | mwilson: now i try to upgrade nvidia-glx |
| 05:42.47 | mwilson | deadcat: You're saying you basically didn't pay attention to a thing I said, right? |
| 05:43.23 | deadcat | mwilson: i just dont get the things you say. you mean nvidia-glx is also in the nvidia-kernel-source pkg? |
| 05:43.34 | mwilson | <sigh> |
| 05:43.37 | deadcat | (= |
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| 05:44.22 | mwilson | deadcat: Try and follow along... nvidia-glx-some_version_number deps on a set of kernel modules. |
| 05:44.42 | Teakk | mwilson: are you causing problems here on freenode as well as undernet now? :P |
| 05:45.05 | *** join/#debian wetnix (~wetnix@200-181-089-065.pvoce205.dial.brasiltelecom.net.br) |
| 05:45.06 | mwilson | deadcat: Those modules are also in non-free, along with nvidia-glx itself, built against a number of the common kernel-image packages. |
| 05:45.24 | *** join/#debian django34 (~adrian@195.23.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 05:45.29 | mwilson | deadcat: nvidia-glx declares a dependency on those modules. |
| 05:45.38 | JaneLame | karsten, it works. i love you. |
| 05:46.08 | mwilson | deadcat: Now, you try to install nvidia-glx. It needs its deps, so in comes the modules package. The *modules* package deps on the kernel it was compiled against. |
| 05:46.18 | deadcat | i see. |
| 05:46.21 | mwilson | deadcat: Which brings in the kernel-image package. |
| 05:46.37 | alejandro_ | hi! does anyone know an editor like dreamweaver? |
| 05:46.42 | *** join/#debian niklaus (~niklaus@210-210-75-118.lan.sify.net) |
| 05:46.54 | niklaus | which are the good offline newsreader other than pan |
| 05:46.57 | *** join/#debian I-LoVe-Y0u- (~Game@81.213.162.60) |
| 05:47.22 | The_Vulture | deadcat: I assume mwilson has already pointed this out, but if you want a nvidia-kernel for a kernel image other than the ones that are pre-built, you've got to build it yourself from nvidia-kernel-source against the kernel source (or just the headers) for your kernel of choice |
| 05:47.25 | mwilson | deadcat: If you don't WANT the kernel-image package, use the nvidia-kernel-source package to provide the modules package dependency that nvidia-glx wants. nvidia-kernel-source builds against YOUR kernel, and provides a package that satisfies the dep. |
| 05:47.29 | deadcat | my vidieo card supports vga/svideo/dvo, what do i need to setup xinerama? |
| 05:47.30 | *** join/#debian iNDigence (~java@dsl81-215-37828.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 05:47.41 | Cyis | hmm... sounds like BTS #251506 covers this already |
| 05:47.56 | deadcat | The_Vulture: ya. you showed me how last time. heheh |
| 05:48.02 | The_Vulture | so get building |
| 05:48.25 | The_Vulture | whenever they release another nvidia-glx that is built against a more recent version of the drivers, you need to build a matching nvidia kernel package |
| 05:48.36 | The_Vulture | and whenever you upgrade your linux kernel, you have to do the same |
| 05:48.36 | *** part/#debian wetnix (~wetnix@200-181-089-065.pvoce205.dial.brasiltelecom.net.br) |
| 05:48.41 | deadcat | mwilson: i just do debian/rules binary_modules; should i modify some files or something? |
| 05:49.11 | mwilson | deadcat: No, you should read the instructions, so you actually build it correctly. |
| 05:49.19 | deadcat | mwilson: ok. |
| 05:49.30 | *** join/#debian sakas (~sakas@kela.singnet.com.sg) |
| 05:49.30 | *** part/#debian Cyis (~undrgrid@sjc-gw1.undergrid.net) |
| 05:50.06 | karsten | JaneLame: :-) |
| 05:50.08 | *** join/#debian SiX (~Vanessa22@212.11.160.37) |
| 05:50.14 | *** join/#debian Tarcastil (~Tarcastil@adsl-64-219-243-145.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 05:50.26 | *** join/#debian guestish (~AName@adsl-209-204-181-196.sonic.net) |
| 05:51.14 | guestish | hum, for some reason my brand new TR-3 tape caridge's format is not being reconized, so i guess i gotta reformat it, except i have no idea how and nothing on google has given me much idea on what to do |
| 05:51.21 | abydos | Is there a specific location at which firefox stores its quicksearch bar definitions? |
| 05:51.26 | guestish | this is supposedly a preformatted tape |
| 05:51.34 | *** part/#debian Tarcastil (~Tarcastil@adsl-64-219-243-145.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 05:51.39 | abydos | I can't seem to add definitions, to any of the debian-customized versions |
| 05:51.43 | mwilson | guestish: Then return it as defective and get another one. |
| 05:51.47 | abydos | and it's really haranging me |
| 05:51.54 | *** join/#debian One (~java@213.252.236.137) |
| 05:52.01 | Hill-o-beans | I am havin problems with apt-get ---- everytime I apt-get -f install it gets terminated by a package having errors, is there a way to take that attemp on that particular package out so it will move on with packages that I need it to work on..... |
| 05:52.12 | *** join/#debian LeE (~Kick@219.95.101.131) |
| 05:52.22 | mwilson | Hill-o-beans: What led you to think that -f install was something you'd want to use? |
| 05:52.24 | guestish | mwilson: you think its defective? |
| 05:52.47 | guestish | mwilson: maybe its just an unreconized partition type |
| 05:52.50 | mwilson | guestish: I know it's not worth worrying about. If you get a second one, and it doesn't work either, then worry about the drive. |
| 05:52.50 | Hill-o-beans | it was in the manual lol |
| 05:52.57 | mwilson | guestish: tapes don't have partitions. |
| 05:53.07 | guestish | mwilson: thats what im doing now |
| 05:53.30 | guestish | mwilson: oh, ok |
| 05:53.33 | *** join/#debian blackhawk (~blackhawk@lcp-167.b35.isk-tv.no) |
| 05:53.45 | guestish | mwilson: i know nothing about tape drives so this is a learning experience for me |
| 05:53.48 | *** join/#debian List (~LinuX@dsl81-215-21348.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 05:53.54 | *** join/#debian margfe (margfe@dsl49-60.sion.net) |
| 05:54.12 | guestish | mwilson: according to the driver this 1.6 GB tape is 0MBs |
| 05:54.19 | karsten | Piggy: Shorly before going in to self-employment as a chemical weapons plant? |
| 05:54.21 | deadcat | The_Vulture: which doc file do i read to build nvidia-glx? |
| 05:54.24 | mwilson | guestish: "according to the driver"? |
| 05:54.31 | *** join/#debian hondje (hondje@c-24-9-245-177.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:54.35 | blackhawk | some norwegian people that could help me with debian? msg me!:. |
| 05:54.36 | mwilson | guestish: ftape, scsi, or ide? |
| 05:54.41 | guestish | mwilson: pt |
| 05:54.42 | The_Vulture | deadcat: you don't build nvidia-glx, just use the packages that come with debian.. |
| 05:54.46 | guestish | mwilson: its a parallel port drive |
| 05:54.50 | mwilson | guestish: Ugh. You're on your own. :) |
| 05:54.51 | The_Vulture | you build nvidia-kernel |
| 05:54.57 | guestish | mwilson: gee, thanks |
| 05:55.08 | guestish | mwilson: just pretend its ide ;) |
| 05:55.13 | guestish | mwilson: basically thats what it is |
| 05:55.14 | mwilson | guestish: Sorry, but using a ppt for tape is silly. |
| 05:55.21 | karsten | guestish: This is a SCSI device? |
| 05:55.23 | guestish | mwilson: silly? hey, it works doesnt it? |
| 05:55.26 | guestish | karsten: ide |
| 05:55.31 | mwilson | guestish: Not so far, apparently. |
| 05:55.33 | guestish | karsten: interfaced though a parallel port |
| 05:55.34 | karsten | guestish: You have my pity. |
| 05:55.44 | guestish | mwilson: bah |
| 05:55.44 | The_Vulture | guestish: I'd have thought you want to backup lots of stuff.. parallel port is hardly the fastest connection.. |
| 05:56.01 | guestish | The_Vulture: no kiddin, but in any case its what i got |
| 05:56.04 | *** join/#debian noobulator (noobulator@c-24-9-79-4.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:56.09 | guestish | so i want it to work damnit! |
| 05:56.10 | guestish | :) |
| 05:56.11 | mwilson | Once I got to 1 TB of HD in the house, even my 30 gb tape drive doesn't cut it. I dunno what I'm going to do now. |
| 05:56.16 | hondje | Am I being trolled, or is Debian getting rid of 'testing' when sarge becomes stable? |
| 05:56.16 | *** join/#debian SchindleR (~Pedro@200.185.183.2) |
| 05:56.23 | The_Vulture | mwilson: buy more disks :) |
| 05:56.28 | guestish | mwilson: this is a 8 GB drive using a 1.6/3.2 tape |
| 05:56.29 | OhMyAchingGut | theres alwayas a testing |
| 05:56.34 | karsten | hondje: YHBT |
| 05:56.47 | mwilson | guestish: You can't write on a TR-3 tape with a TR-4 drive. |
| 05:56.54 | hondje | Thought so .... So debian is going to keep the stable/testing/unstable system? |
| 05:56.57 | guestish | mwilson: oooohhh, thats the problem? |
| 05:57.06 | guestish | mwilson: that would explain a lot |
| 05:57.06 | karsten | hondje: Yes. |
| 05:57.15 | mwilson | guestish: You can READ one, but not write one. |
| 05:57.17 | The_Vulture | yay for backwards incompatability |
| 05:57.19 | guestish | mwilson: ok, ok |
| 05:57.26 | guestish | mwilson: so i gotta go buy a TR-4 tape |
| 05:57.38 | guestish | mwilson: thanks, that saved me a lot of grief |
| 05:57.47 | hondje | How sad, I got trolled :) |
| 05:57.52 | guestish | mwilson: that due to how it writes the tapes? |
| 05:57.52 | mwilson | guestish: If it's a TR-4 drive, and not one of those proprietary silly things by Sony, or Iomega. |
| 05:58.01 | karsten | guestish: Do yourself a favor and find ye a real DAT SCSI drive. |
| 05:58.03 | guestish | mwilson: TR-4 colorado drive |
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| 05:58.22 | guestish | mwilson: made to work with windows 95 and 3.1 ;) |
| 05:58.26 | peterS | karsten: yeah, probably not that much on ebay these days |
| 05:58.27 | dadedi | back again.. |
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| 05:58.31 | *** part/#debian error3 (~root@ca-bordeaux-30-134.w80-8.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 05:58.32 | mwilson | guestish: You should be able to scare up a 4mm 8gb DDS-2 drive for pennies. |
| 05:58.36 | deadcat | my vidieo card supports vga/svideo/dvo, what do i need to setup xinerama? |
| 05:58.44 | *** join/#debian CarTeL (~DeLiKan@81.213.100.2) |
| 05:58.44 | guestish | mwilson: this was 7 bucks |
| 05:58.48 | mwilson | DDS-3/DDS-4 still command a bit of a price. |
| 05:58.58 | *** join/#debian chifinet (~chifinet@c-24-14-78-114.client.comcast.net) |
| 05:59.14 | guestish | mwilson: what would you call my drive? |
| 05:59.24 | mwilson | guestish: The drive is cheap, but tapes will eat you alive. |
| 05:59.35 | mwilson | guestish: A paperweight. |
| 05:59.44 | guestish | mwilson: heh...the tapes are only 20 bucks |
| 05:59.53 | guestish | mwilson: thats not all that much |
| 05:59.55 | django34 | Hey, everybody. How can I automatically log-out all SSHed-in users when I reboot my server? |
| 05:59.58 | mwilson | And 4mm 8 gb tapes are $7 or less. |
| 06:00.01 | chifinet | i want to install the hostap drivers re this faq http://home.columbus.rr.com/andrewbarr/dwl520e1.html#install i believe i need to do make menuconfig, however can it doesn't seem to work. do i need to install from source and not image? or does apt-get hostap take care of the make menuconfig stuff? |
| 06:00.06 | mwilson | And are smaller, and faster. |
| 06:00.13 | *** join/#debian PuncH (~diJLe@219.95.242.61) |
| 06:00.28 | guestish | mwilson: so the tapes that my drives uses are bigger, slower, and more expensive? is that what you are saying? |
| 06:00.35 | mwilson | guestish: Yep. |
| 06:00.51 | guestish | mwilson: heh...so go get a "real" tape drive is your advice? |
| 06:00.55 | mwilson | Yep. |
| 06:01.04 | dadedi | mykernel is going panic!! on screen it said something from mrtg and from mrgt log it said there's a mrtg lock still active ... |
| 06:01.10 | guestish | mwilson: like i said, i knew squat (and im still close) when i got this drive |
| 06:01.19 | *** part/#debian hondje (hondje@c-24-9-245-177.client.comcast.net) |
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| 06:01.40 | guestish | mwilson: i might get a tape just for the sake of getting one :) |
| 06:01.56 | mwilson | guestish: The DDS-2 drives are all over the place. They're SCSI, they're fast, and they're easy to deal with. |
| 06:02.20 | *** join/#debian Phated (phated@cm175.omega152.maxonline.com.sg) |
| 06:02.31 | guestish | mwilson: got a website? |
| 06:02.57 | peterS | guestish: a lot of vendors made dds-2 drives. HP ones are well known |
| 06:03.21 | guestish | peterS: i still want a website for a vendor ;) |
| 06:03.32 | peterS | guestish: I'd just check ebay.com |
| 06:03.55 | mwilson | I got my 15/30 DLT for a buck from someone who had no idea what it was. |
| 06:04.02 | peterS | mwilson: heh, nice |
| 06:04.34 | guestish | heh |
| 06:04.36 | mwilson | peterS: Jah, he's nice, he's fast, and he's too bloody small. :) |
| 06:04.36 | guestish | good deal |
| 06:04.53 | peterS | mwilson: ain't that always the case with tape drives... |
| 06:04.56 | *** join/#debian running (RodeO@82.135.128.236) |
| 06:04.57 | guestish | bah, they are all internal |
| 06:05.00 | guestish | i have no space in my case |
| 06:05.17 | mwilson | guestish: Uh, they're SCSI. Put them in an external box. |
| 06:05.22 | *** join/#debian aLBerT (~FaNtazi@217.64.28.110) |
| 06:05.24 | peterS | guestish: so find a scsi-2 enclosure and a nice expensive scsi-2 external cable |
| 06:05.48 | guestish | peterS: not worth it =P |
| 06:05.53 | peterS | guestish: the trick if you're buying online is of course to make sure you have the right, compatible, things to put in each other |
| 06:05.55 | *** join/#debian schmoe_ (~nick@ppp140-13.lns1.adl2.internode.on.net) |
| 06:06.00 | guestish | mwilson: yeah yeah yeah, but it doesnt look as cool =P |
| 06:06.45 | mwilson | I always wanted one of the HP drives that had the internal tape library... you know, it takes up two 5.25" bays, but it holds like 8 4mm tapes at once. |
| 06:06.46 | maher | guestish: if the tapes only take 8g that's only twice a dvd |
| 06:06.57 | guestish | maher: its for fun, not for any actual functionality |
| 06:06.57 | guestish | :) |
| 06:06.58 | mwilson | 8gb with compression. 4gb native. |
| 06:07.02 | *** part/#debian django34 (~adrian@195.23.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 06:07.07 | mwilson | So it's the same as a DVD. |
| 06:07.13 | guestish | heh |
| 06:07.21 | guestish | yet slower and more inefficent |
| 06:07.33 | guestish | but its from 1995 so i must use it! |
| 06:07.35 | mwilson | One of those HP's at DDS-3 gives you like 100 gb per magazine. |
| 06:07.35 | maher | guestish: i used to have a tape drive i couldn't get to work, too bad I'd have let you have it... |
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| 06:07.44 | guestish | maher: i already got one :) |
| 06:07.49 | *** join/#debian grelli (grelli@S010600a024bf32cd.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 06:08.22 | maher | mwilson: that's a useful size - is there a dds-4? |
| 06:08.28 | guestish | oooo, used TR-4 tapes for 4 bucks a pop |
| 06:08.34 | guestish | anyone think thats a good deal? |
| 06:09.09 | guestish | i have no idea if used tapes are not as good as new ones |
| 06:09.15 | mwilson | maher: Yes, although I don't think it's in wide use as DLT owns that market. |
| 06:09.24 | mwilson | guestish: Think about it. |
| 06:09.38 | guestish | mwilson: well in some cases it doesnt matter |
| 06:09.50 | mwilson | guestish: What happens if you play a cassette tape with music on it a couple hundred times? |
| 06:09.59 | guestish | mwilson: good point... |
| 06:10.01 | *** join/#debian Goqchenn (~PHiLiPS@81.212.154.148) |
| 06:10.20 | peterS | guestish: yeah, tapes do wear out. used ones - you really have no idea how much life is left in them |
| 06:10.31 | guestish | peterS: so i'll just get a new one for 20 dollars |
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| 06:11.30 | Jerub | Hi, My usb keyboard doesn't seem to be working with 2.6.6, I don't know why... It loads the likely modules, but I can't get the keyboard to respond on either console or X. |
| 06:11.54 | guestish | These tapes have seen light use. The computer they were being used with has been upgraded to a new system which has a different kind of tape drive --- thus I have these tapes as surplus. These tapes have been recertified and are guaranteed ERROR FREE along their entire length |
| 06:12.04 | guestish | 30 for 5 |
| 06:12.15 | grelli | I'd go for it, personally |
| 06:12.16 | *** join/#debian kardelennn (~DeLi@pcd260014.netvigator.com) |
| 06:12.23 | mwilson | I wouldn't. |
| 06:12.39 | *** part/#debian slarti (1000@pD9EA8314.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 06:12.39 | peterS | guestish: depends on the importance of the data being backed up |
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| 06:12.41 | *** join/#debian shmho (~shmho@211.207.151.29) |
| 06:12.46 | guestish | mwilson: your philosphy is never buy used tapes? |
| 06:12.52 | mwilson | Yep. |
| 06:12.57 | guestish | peterS: well it is a backup after all... |
| 06:13.13 | peterS | guestish: assuming you rotate your tapes, even if one turns bad on you unexpectedly, there's always the day-before-yesterday's backup |
| 06:13.20 | guestish | true... |
| 06:13.31 | grelli | peterS assuming you're doing full backups and non incrimentals |
| 06:13.46 | grelli | er, not incrimentals, rather |
| 06:13.48 | peterS | grelli: right. apply the same logic to the interval at which you do the full backup. |
| 06:13.52 | guestish | heres a monster drive...http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39977&item=5107694253&rd=1 |
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| 06:14.18 | *** join/#debian StevenK (~stevenk@14.5.233.220.exetel.com.au) |
| 06:14.47 | *** join/#debian Oskilian (~user@200.71.46.155) |
| 06:14.59 | mwilson | That's a Seagate Python. |
| 06:15.03 | guestish | http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=51090&item=5108008739&rd=1 |
| 06:15.09 | guestish | mwilson: eh? it says its compaq |
| 06:15.15 | mwilson | " |
| 06:15.26 | mwilson | "Compaq DAT drive made by Seagate" |
| 06:15.31 | guestish | ah |
| 06:15.39 | *** join/#debian nevyn (nevyn@fooishbar.org) |
| 06:15.44 | mwilson | Right there in the item description, not that I needed it. That faceplate is distinctive. |
| 06:15.50 | Oskilian | how can I get an SCO binary run under debian? if I just execute it, I get a wonderful syntax error |
| 06:15.51 | mickeyks | mwilson: do you have your vim set to display tab characters? |
| 06:15.57 | mwilson | No. |
| 06:16.04 | guestish | now theres a big drive... |
| 06:16.23 | *** join/#debian ^^murat^^25 (~Sigara@dsl81-215-44533.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
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| 06:16.36 | mickeyks | Oskilian: are you kidding? |
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| 06:16.52 | peterS | Oskilian: buy a license for SCO libraries, and ask them what to do with it |
| 06:17.14 | *** join/#debian dom (UNIX@82-39-42-41.cable.ubr02.benw.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 06:17.21 | maher | Oskilian: email sco and ask them how much money you owe them |
| 06:17.30 | peterS | Oskilian: I'm pretty sure you can't run their binaries without their libaries, and Debian can't distribute those are they're non-free |
| 06:18.12 | Oskilian | they are so expensive, that I'd rather buy a newer software version for linux, and it is so expensive, I'd rather kill myself |
| 06:19.05 | peterS | Oskilian: the other option is to figure out whether there's any free software replacement for what you need |
| 06:19.17 | peterS | Oskilian: 'apt-cache search' and http://freshmeat.net/ are your friends, there |
| 06:19.24 | Oskilian | and of course, there are no free versions of the software I want |
| 06:19.48 | *** join/#debian Teakk (~Teakk@CPE-65-31-146-191.wi.rr.com) |
| 06:19.49 | maher | Oskilian: what is this sw |
| 06:20.03 | *** join/#debian aicra (~aicra@ip68-99-80-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 06:20.08 | steelhoof | hmmm E: Couldn't find package pine |
| 06:20.16 | alejandro_ | hi! does anyone know an editor like dreamweaver for linux? (wysiwyg) |
| 06:20.18 | peterS | steelhoof: yeah, pine is non-free |
| 06:20.18 | steelhoof | any suggestions? sarge |
| 06:20.24 | steelhoof | ahhh |
| 06:20.35 | mwilson | steelhoof: You normally type package names at random? |
| 06:20.38 | steelhoof | used it so long never thought of that |
| 06:21.04 | peterS | steelhoof: the usual suggestion is 'mutt', but as that isn't really too similar to pine, the other option is a package in the non-free archive called 'pine-src' or something like that |
| 06:21.06 | maher | steelhoof: try pine-tracker |
| 06:21.08 | Guerin | !hello gentlemen |
| 06:21.08 | dpkg | All your base are belong to us! |
| 06:21.12 | *** join/#debian vroom_ (~vroom@bgp01138627bgs.ypwest01.mi.comcast.net) |
| 06:21.17 | aicra | Guerin: ahem |
| 06:21.27 | steelhoof | ick! base time |
| 06:21.28 | Oskilian | to put it this way, I have this really old software that needs to run under RM/Cobol85, and the people who install it, only want RM/Cobol85, which I have in disks for SCO/UNIX, and a newer linux version of RM/Cobol85 costs a few thousand dollars |
| 06:21.45 | peterS | Oskilian: I feel your pain. really, I do. |
| 06:21.52 | steelhoof | thanks gent |
| 06:22.06 | mwilson | <shrug> So, run SCO. |
| 06:22.08 | Penix | Guerin: lucky bastard |
| 06:22.12 | maher | Oskilian: do the people who use this sw have a lot of money? |
| 06:22.24 | Oskilian | yeah, it's a huge software house |
| 06:22.33 | mwilson | All evilness aside, they have a product, you need that product, purchase that product and move on. |
| 06:22.39 | maher | Oskilian: just pay up |
| 06:22.50 | Guerin | Penix: I think so. My wife disagrees. |
| 06:23.19 | Oskilian | and no, the SCO I have is a 1995 version which doesn't support about 90% of my box |
| 06:23.36 | *** join/#debian abauer (~abauer@pD9E8AF4F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 06:23.46 | Jerub | Oskilian: reimplement the software ;) |
| 06:24.03 | maher | Oskilian: maybe buying cobol for linux will be less unpleasant then paying sco |
| 06:24.07 | Penix | or buy a 1995-era box on ebay |
| 06:24.24 | Oskilian | and the fun part is that if I ask them, they would tell me to buy the newest version of their software designed to run under windows, and all workstations must run under windows. And I'd really like to kill myself before doing that |
| 06:24.29 | maher | Oskilian: that's it - give them a 1995 box to run their 1995 sw on :) |
| 06:24.55 | maher | Oskilian: maybe you should look for a different job? |
| 06:24.59 | peterS | Oskilian: yeah, I second what maher says. Find an old box, load it up with sco noxiousness, and let it be |
| 06:25.05 | eXoDuS | lol |
| 06:25.08 | peterS | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:25.09 | peterS | / \ |
| 06:25.09 | Oskilian | well, that's what I'm having right now, and I've been hired to "modernize the system" because the 1995 hard drive is failing |
| 06:25.22 | guestish | peterS: that one lined up for me |
| 06:25.35 | mwilson | Why do people always need to make software some sort of ideological crusade? |
| 06:25.39 | peterS | guestish: it helps when the other person's nick is the same length as mine |
| 06:25.46 | guestish | peterS: yeah... |
| 06:25.48 | peterS | guestish: then right-aligned and left-aligned do the same thing |
| 06:25.50 | Oskilian | more like a favor to my father's company rather than being hired |
| 06:25.52 | guestish | mwilson: cause they have nothing better to do |
| 06:25.55 | mwilson | If the best way to run the software is under Windows, then wtf are you dithering about? |
| 06:25.57 | maher | mwilson: because we must save the infidel from burning in hell! |
| 06:26.04 | peterS | maher: heh |
| 06:26.18 | mwilson | The idea is to get the job done, not to be a revivalist preacher. |
| 06:26.29 | guestish | well the TR-4 Tapes are 30 bucks... |
| 06:26.33 | eXoDuS | mwilson: question is, does windows get the job done? |
| 06:26.34 | guestish | thats a total rip off |
| 06:26.38 | maher | mwilson: maybe that's your idea... |
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| 06:27.01 | guestish | i think ill just wait until the computer recyclers get some tapes, they are cheaper there |
| 06:27.01 | Oskilian | they have 25 workstations running linux right now, and getting 25 windows licences (because the windows software only works with windows workstations) is EXTREMELY expensive, and not an option |
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| 06:27.37 | maher | Oskilian: what is this windows sw - the cobol? |
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| 06:27.51 | guestish | mwilson: you're right, how'd you know they'd be a total ripoff? |
| 06:28.09 | Netslayer | apt, bot? |
| 06:28.10 | apt | bot is probably ljp |
| 06:28.11 | Oskilian | no. the cobol is required to run the unix version |
| 06:28.12 | mwilson | guestish: I've been down this road. |
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| 06:28.23 | Netslayer | apt, hello |
| 06:28.24 | apt | Howdy Bub |
| 06:28.29 | eXoDuS | mwilson: blasphemer! |
| 06:28.31 | Netslayer | apt, how are you today? |
| 06:28.32 | apt | Netslayer: what are you talking about? |
| 06:28.38 | guestish | mwilson: heh |
| 06:28.43 | mwilson | eXoDuS: Excuse me? |
| 06:28.45 | Netslayer | am i talking to a real person or a bot? |
| 06:28.47 | maher | Oskilian: so what does this sw do? |
| 06:28.52 | Netslayer | apt, 1+1= |
| 06:28.53 | apt | Netslayer: I give up, what is it? |
| 06:28.55 | guestish | Netslayer: depends how you look at it |
| 06:28.59 | eXoDuS | mwilson: just teasin :) |
| 06:28.59 | Netslayer | hah! |
| 06:29.04 | Oskilian | it's just an accounting system |
| 06:29.10 | Netslayer | it's freakily enterainting |
| 06:29.22 | streuner | Netslayer: wanna play with the bot - #debian-bots |
| 06:29.30 | maher | Oskilian: my advice would be don't touch this with a barge pole even if your dad wants to pay you |
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| 06:30.30 | Oskilian | getting another one is not a good option either, because there are 15 years in that database, and it's not likely for the owners of the current software to make a converter from their propietary format to the other format |
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| 06:31.31 | guestish | so what exactly is the point of a tape drive...it seems inefficent and over priced in general compared to what it should be.... |
| 06:31.50 | mwilson | guestish: Travan is a consumer-level technology. |
| 06:32.05 | alejandro_ | i am searching for a dreamweaver-like program to edit webpages, but haven't find anything (google) does anyone know a good one? |
| 06:32.24 | mwilson | Run Dreamweaver, if you want Dreamweaver. |
| 06:32.28 | guestish | mwilson: so industral-level tapes are actually useful? |
| 06:32.28 | maher | guestish: if you want to back up > 100g you are unlikely to want to do it to dvd and tapes are cheaper than hd |
| 06:32.38 | sussudio | alejandro_: i use nano |
| 06:32.53 | Oskilian | guestish tape drives are very versatile, have a huge capacity, you can rewrite them as much as you want and are quite fast |
| 06:32.57 | guestish | maher: i dunno...costco had a 160 gb drive for 100 (7200 rm) |
| 06:33.08 | Guerin | alejandro_: i don't think there is anything like dreamweaver for gnu/linux - an editor with good html modes, like emacs, or a *ml ide like quanta is the way |
| 06:33.14 | guestish | so basically they are only useful when used in sizes excess of 100gbs |
| 06:33.25 | mwilson | tape is still the only way to go for high-density backup. |
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| 06:33.46 | guestish | what about raid arrays? |
| 06:33.46 | alejandro_ | what about dozer? |
| 06:33.49 | mwilson | guestish: I'm sitting here with two .5 TB RAID5 arrays... can you see me backing that up to DVD? |
| 06:33.50 | Oskilian | guestish and if you're making daily backups it results cheaper than getting a whole lot of DVDs |
| 06:34.18 | myddd | hi guys... |
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| 06:34.22 | mwilson | guestish: Can you see building multiple additional arrays, just to maintain a reasonable backup strategy to HD? |
| 06:34.35 | guestish | mwilson: true enough |
| 06:34.43 | mwilson | guestish: How do you maintain off-site backups, if you're backing up to HD? Archival backups? |
| 06:34.58 | guestish | i dunno |
| 06:35.15 | mwilson | You use tape. High-density data, cheap, fast, reliable. |
| 06:35.30 | guestish | i'll take your word for it |
| 06:35.39 | myddd | what should i analize if my kernel is going panic.And it's happend avery 10m |
| 06:35.39 | The_Vulture | mwilson: hot swappable drives? |
| 06:36.46 | Guerin | !logs |
| 06:36.46 | dpkg | logs are what you should always check when you have a problem . They live in /var/log/ |
| 06:36.54 | Guerin | myddd: ^^ |
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| 06:38.13 | sussudio | !ewe |
| 06:38.13 | dpkg | Guerin: baah. |
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| 06:39.45 | alejandro_ | look |
| 06:39.46 | alejandro_ | http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5263961.html |
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| 06:41.04 | sussudio | alejandro_: paste your crap in #nobodycares |
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| 06:42.55 | alejandro_ | sussudio, shhhhhhhhhhhh |
| 06:43.15 | alejandro_ | i'm reading....don't speak for everyone... |
| 06:43.24 | mickeyks | mwilson: do you use one of the color schemes that comes with vim? |
| 06:43.33 | mwilson | mickeyks: No, my own. |
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| 06:43.56 | mwilson | alejandro_: Troll elsewhere, please. No one cares. |
| 06:44.39 | dan2 | mwilson: you use vim?! |
| 06:44.54 | mwilson | dan2: Yes, is there some reason I shouldn't? |
| 06:44.58 | dan2 | !start an editor war |
| 06:44.58 | dpkg | edlin is known to repel members of the opposite sex |
| 06:45.05 | dan2 | mwilson: emacs! |
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| 06:45.19 | mwilson | dan2: What about it? |
| 06:45.27 | alejandro_ | mwilson, maybe you don't care...maybe someone cares ;) |
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| 06:45.39 | dan2 | alejandro_: no one cares. |
| 06:45.54 | dan2 | mwilson: I would want to use vim as a text editor |
| 06:45.54 | The_Vulture | I think we're all in agreement, no one cares. |
| 06:46.03 | alejandro_ | 3 from 617 ;) |
| 06:46.11 | dan2 | mwilson: I couldn't even get colors working on my machine |
| 06:46.12 | alejandro_ | :P |
| 06:46.16 | mwilson | dan2: Then do so. What's stopping you? |
| 06:46.21 | The_Vulture | dan2: apt-get install vim, what more is there? |
| 06:46.26 | The_Vulture | oh, :syntax on |
| 06:46.47 | dan2 | doh |
| 06:46.56 | CoffeeMUG | apt-get install vim-common :P |
| 06:46.59 | The_Vulture | go find some random .vimrc |
| 06:47.03 | tcsetattr | that's funny, I have have to turn off that "Bobo the Clown" color scheme on just about every machine I encounter |
| 06:47.15 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: I like bobo. |
| 06:47.15 | dan2 | The_Vulture: damn I should have known that ages ago |
| 06:47.30 | mickeyks | dan2: and try the schemes in $VIMRUNTIME/colors |
| 06:47.34 | The_Vulture | dan2: :help syntax gives a good start |
| 06:47.47 | harlequin | any updates on when sarge is going stable? |
| 06:47.48 | mickeyks | :colorscheme nameofcolorscheme |
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| 06:48.02 | tcsetattr | I'm getting to the point where I might remember to pre-emptively "echo syntax off >> ~/.exrc" the next time |
| 06:48.21 | alejandro_ | there is a package that transform the rpm into deb file right? does anyone know the name? |
| 06:48.32 | dan2 | The_Vulture: I moved to emacs because vim did crappy syntax highlighting |
| 06:48.33 | dan2 | :) |
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| 06:48.43 | dan2 | The_Vulture: and vim wasn't powerful enough |
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| 06:49.10 | The_Vulture | dan2: that's what color schemes are for, although I use the default |
| 06:49.18 | tcsetattr | new vim is too bloated. vim 4.x is pretty good. |
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| 06:50.25 | tcsetattr | I feel it's more powerful after trimming out bloated and annoying features like color |
| 06:50.26 | mickeyks | i wonder how many people regularly use the murphy color scheme |
| 06:50.30 | mickeyks | it would quickly drive me crazy |
| 06:50.50 | The_Vulture | there are a few in there that really wouldn't work for me |
| 06:51.06 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: what definition of "power" are you using? and what kind of things do you edit? |
| 06:51.14 | harlequin | im trying to decide what release i should us eon my server |
| 06:51.17 | The_Vulture | I find reading source code far easier with syntax highlighting |
| 06:51.20 | harlequin | when sarge goes stable will it autoupdate? |
| 06:51.32 | Guerin | harlequin: what do you mean? |
| 06:51.37 | Guerin | !swym |
| 06:51.38 | dpkg | hmm... swym is Say What You Mean. See also MWYS. |
| 06:51.46 | tcsetattr | well, "power" could mean that it runs faster due to not wasting CPU cycles on silly misfeatures |
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| 06:52.06 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: you honestly notice a speed difference? |
| 06:52.07 | harlequin | Guerin: you know how woody is stable atm when sarge goes to stable will that mean my box will update to sarge when it goes stable? |
| 06:52.18 | tcsetattr | I find that reading source code in any way other than the way the compiler reads it (as plain text) leads to dangerous misconceptions |
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| 06:52.33 | dan2 | The_Vulture: hrm, can I use vim in emacs? |
| 06:52.36 | Guerin | harlequin: if your sources.list entries say "stable", yes. If they say "woody", no. |
| 06:52.40 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: you'd write it all on one line too? |
| 06:52.45 | Guerin | dan2: look into viper |
| 06:52.47 | The_Vulture | use incrementally named variables? |
| 06:52.54 | tcsetattr | The_Vulture, I didn't mean it was noticeably more powerful. Just that useless features do suck power, by one good definition |
| 06:52.57 | dan2 | Guerin: ok |
| 06:53.03 | harlequin | Guerin: oh ok cool well for security they are woody... |
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| 06:53.30 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: I'd hardly call that a good definition, and I wouldn't call them useless, but whatever works for you I guess |
| 06:53.40 | harlequin | what are some handy tools i can use on my gateway? |
| 06:54.04 | tcsetattr | The_Vulture, the nature of whitespace (where it is allowed and what semantics it has) is spelled out in a language specification. Where in the ISO C99 standard, for example, or the POSIX sh standard, are colors of the code mentioned? |
| 06:54.06 | The_Vulture | harlequin: tools to do what? |
| 06:54.28 | Guerin | harlequin: you need to read about setting up a gateway. Don't ask us, you're responsible for getting it running and secured, and to do that, you need to know WTF you're doing. |
| 06:54.41 | harlequin | The_Vulture: something that can filter out all the iptables messages and place them in iptables.log and rotate them etc |
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| 06:54.49 | dan2 | Guerin: emacs generally has a shitty text editor, vim would be nice |
| 06:54.50 | chifinet | i am trying to get hostap drivers to work re: this howto http://home.columbus.rr.com/andrewbarr/dwl520e1.html would apt-get hostap work the same as this source install? |
| 06:55.01 | Guerin | dan2: that's pure bullshit. |
| 06:55.03 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: That wasn't my point. Syntax highlighting in my experience makes it easier to read code, a simple example I find useful, is different colours for comments, makes it easier (for me) to filter them in or out |
| 06:55.03 | harlequin | Guerin: i have my gateway working but it needs a format/rebuild so i should be all well ;) |
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| 06:55.09 | The_Vulture | just like indentation makes it easier for me to filter things in or out |
| 06:55.18 | The_Vulture | yes indentation can be misleading as much as an editors colouring could be |
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| 06:55.37 | The_Vulture | although I can't say I've found many cases where I've had misleading highlighting from vim |
| 06:55.49 | harlequin | im trying to what release to use :S |
| 06:55.59 | The_Vulture | It couldn't quite understand the trigraphs I was using (especially when I mismatched them), but that's not suprising (I was just doing it to be evil anyway) |
| 06:56.00 | harlequin | stable has some outdated packages ;) |
| 06:56.10 | mickeyks | harlequin: we know |
| 06:56.14 | tcsetattr | indentation is actually supported by the language; the colors are an illusion. and yeah it's going to be misleading sometimes unless the editor really knows every detail about the compiler, including its possibly undocumented language extensions |
| 06:56.26 | Guerin | harlequin: unless you need specific functionality in new versions, why does that matter? |
| 06:56.32 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: the semantics of the indentation are just as much an illusion as the semantics of the colours |
| 06:56.46 | harlequin | Guerin: quite true :) |
| 06:57.05 | harlequin | hrmm apache+php for phpsysinfo is a bit extreme :S |
| 06:57.08 | tcsetattr | but the _existence_ of indentation is real |
| 06:57.27 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: My point was that people use indentation to convey semantics, as editors use colours to do so |
| 06:57.36 | The_Vulture | a human can get the indentation wrong as an editor can get the colours wrong |
| 06:57.39 | peterS | tcsetattr: I think I have yet to see emacs cc-mode confused by C code |
| 06:57.44 | The_Vulture | both are reasonably rare |
| 06:57.53 | tcsetattr | at a fundamental level, colors in an editor bother me because I associate colorfulness with playfulness, and black-and-white with seriousness. And I'm usually not in a playful mood when I'm writing code. |
| 06:57.59 | peterS | tcsetattr: unless that code deliberately abuses the preprocessor or something, to make something look un-C-like |
| 06:58.03 | The_Vulture | colours do honestly make code easier to read, just like fonts/styles make normal non-code documents easier to read |
| 06:58.09 | The_Vulture | headings, footnotes, etc.. |
| 06:58.26 | tcsetattr | colors just make me too angry at the editor to even attempt reading until I've turned off the damn colors |
| 06:58.32 | tcsetattr | so it's hardly easier to read :) |
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| 06:58.43 | The_Vulture | I (and apparently a lot of other people) find it easier to read |
| 06:58.51 | MobyTurbo | many IRC clients use color. |
| 06:58.52 | The_Vulture | as I said, being able to filter ont one detail or another is quite useful |
| 06:58.54 | peterS | tcsetattr: and code that abuses the preprocessor to make something look un-C-like also tends to confuse *me*, along with cc-mode, so I figure it's best to just Not Do That |
| 06:59.05 | Guerin | MobyTurbo: irc is not like coding |
| 06:59.08 | The_Vulture | MobyTurbo: same deal, I can filter out lines of blue text (join/leave/etc) |
| 06:59.17 | The_Vulture | Guerin: reading and processing vast amounts of text is similar in both cases |
| 06:59.25 | tcsetattr | yes, I have seen BitchX. and I hate it. And I wish I could slap the hell out of whoever added mIRC color support to Debian's ircii package |
| 06:59.27 | The_Vulture | being able to filter out irrelevent data, or data you don't want to pay attention to right now |
| 06:59.36 | MobyTurbo | Guerin: true, IRC takes longer than writing code. ;) |
| 06:59.38 | Guerin | The_Vulture: sure, being able to easily apply the brain filter. |
| 06:59.53 | Netslayer | i think i've taught beegle too many nasty things :-P |
| 06:59.55 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: no, not IRC transmitted colours |
| 07:00.02 | The_Vulture | but simple highlighting on the client side, eg: name highlights |
| 07:00.23 | The_Vulture | the text Guerin wrote caused my irc client (irssi) to highlight his name, makes it easier for me to see when someone is talking to me |
| 07:00.25 | mickeyks | i'm running irssi in xterm with color |
| 07:00.31 | MobyTurbo | irssi and talk soup, among others, use sensible coloring. (OTOH, BitchX goes too far.) |
| 07:00.47 | The_Vulture | My IRC client uses different styles to highlight different windows so I can tell which ones have just status messages, actual user text, or actual user text about me |
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| 07:01.11 | The_Vulture | the human brain has a lot of stuff dedicated to image analysis, in colour, I see no reason to put that to good use |
| 07:01.17 | The_Vulture | s/no reason/no reason not/ |
| 07:01.25 | MobyTurbo | lol |
| 07:01.28 | mickeyks | yeah when someone talks to me, their nick appears in yellow |
| 07:01.30 | tcsetattr | yes, I also disbelieve in the goodness of the following IRC features: registered nicks, "nick completion", and /msg generally |
| 07:01.49 | mickeyks | if it didn't, i wouldn't notice it half the time, as i'm scrolling between workspaces |
| 07:01.54 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: I'm not sure they add/remove from the point I was making |
| 07:02.06 | tcsetattr | colors are for children. I grew up and put the crayons away and I deal with words now instead of pictures |
| 07:02.11 | dan2 | hrm, viper is nice |
| 07:02.15 | Guerin | tcsetattr: a shame |
| 07:02.15 | The_Vulture | mickeyks: *nods*, certainly useful when I come back to IRC after a while to see a channel highlighted |
| 07:02.27 | MobyTurbo | tcsetattr: then I assume you don't use X11? |
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| 07:02.42 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: That's hardly true, like I said, there's a lot more information when you add colour, and the brain is designed to process that efficiently |
| 07:02.53 | tcsetattr | I have X, and start it on rare occasions (like to view PDFs) |
| 07:03.18 | The_Vulture | sure there's the "oo, look pretty colours" attitude, but there's pretty solid neurological basis for colour |
| 07:03.22 | tcsetattr | pdf2text does a bad job usually (because pdf document authors do a bad job generally) |
| 07:03.27 | The_Vulture | or any kind of markup |
| 07:03.36 | The_Vulture | bold, italic, underline, font sizes, etc |
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| 07:03.55 | tcsetattr | oh, did I mention I'm red/green color-blind, so the colors are less distinct to me than to most people... maybe that affects my judgement on the value |
| 07:04.06 | Guerin | tcsetattr: a, interesting. |
| 07:04.14 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: That could effect things significantly |
| 07:04.21 | tcsetattr | but still I perceive colors just fine when they're bright (like they are in Clown-Mode vim) |
| 07:04.25 | The_Vulture | I certainly can't pretend to be in your shoes in that respect |
| 07:04.37 | Guerin | tcsetattr: I have a friend who's thoroughly red/gree colorblind, and he has no interest in movies or images for that reason |
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| 07:05.08 | tcsetattr | if they were a little less bright, I might not even notice they weren't gray |
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| 07:05.13 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: I still think a lot of the points I've made above still hold even to someone in your situation, but I wouldn't know for sure |
| 07:05.40 | eXoDuS | tcsetattr: colors are easier on the brain, that's a scientific study and you can't just deny it just because you dont like colors. |
| 07:05.45 | The_Vulture | might be a combination of r/g colour blindness and some psychological effect of that in general.. *shrugs* |
| 07:05.58 | peterS | eXoDuS: you say that like you have references |
| 07:06.06 | The_Vulture | eXoDuS: that statement would have more weight if you could reference specific studies |
| 07:06.10 | peterS | eXoDuS: let's see them. I'm calling your bluff |
| 07:06.25 | Guerin | The_Vulture: color in written text is much like an added layer of punctuation. |
| 07:06.49 | tcsetattr | The_Vulture, how would you feel about a book on programming (perll, C, python, whatever) in which the text was black and white like a normal book but all the code samples were printed with vim-style syntax coloring? |
| 07:06.53 | tcsetattr | wouldn't that look absurd? |
| 07:06.58 | tcsetattr | books for grownups are not colorful! |
| 07:06.59 | The_Vulture | I can't, so I haven't quite made such claims, but I do believe that to be true, if I can see in X colours, and my mind can process that kind of information |
| 07:07.05 | Guerin | The_Vulture: In the sense that english without punctuation or spaces or linebreaks is still legible and understandable, it's just unnecessarily painful. |
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| 07:07.24 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: In Stroustrup he uses various font styles to differentiate between literals, keywords, identifiers, etc |
| 07:07.30 | peterS | Guerin: you *really* believe English sentences would be easier to read if all the verbs were in red, and the adjectives in blue, and so forth? |
| 07:07.31 | The_Vulture | That's more common in printed text |
| 07:07.32 | tcsetattr | and computer screens for grownups (outside of video games) don't need to be colorful either |
| 07:07.34 | peterS | Guerin: are you insane? |
| 07:07.39 | Guerin | tcsetattr: a book is different, because it's not user-configurable. |
| 07:07.47 | The_Vulture | That kind of thing would work for me when editing text, but colour is generally easier for terminal programs to do |
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| 07:08.00 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: No one said they _needed_ to be, but it is generally useful for them to be so. |
| 07:08.03 | Guerin | peterS: not at all. I'm not talking about english, I'm talking about color syntax highlighting for a specific task - reading code. |
| 07:08.04 | skaught | tsetattr: We're usually referred to as "adults" |
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| 07:08.20 | peterS | Guerin: why would "reading code" work differently from "reading natural language code"? |
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| 07:08.31 | Guerin | peterS: and color is traditionally used even in english, just differently. |
| 07:08.34 | peterS | Guerin: if you're gonna get all scientific about how colors help us parse better, you have to be consistent |
| 07:08.40 | The_Vulture | peterS: That wouldn't be an entirely bad idea if one was skimming text |
| 07:08.48 | The_Vulture | I often skim code, rather than reading every letter and pronouncing it |
| 07:08.50 | peterS | The_Vulture: I think it would be horribly distracting |
| 07:09.04 | The_Vulture | peterS: I'd actually be interested in seeing a study into that |
| 07:09.07 | tcsetattr | peterS, capitalizing proper nouns may qualify as something similar to syntax highlighting, but I wouldn't expect you to udnerstnad that considering your nick :) |
| 07:09.08 | The_Vulture | It'd be quite interesting |
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| 07:09.09 | Guerin | peterS: I'm not being scientific about it at all. |
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| 07:09.23 | The_Vulture | But I think it'd be more useful if the reader was using it to skim text |
| 07:09.26 | eXoDuS | tcsetattr: books dont have colors because when you ar reading code in a book you actually read it, when you are coding you are usually looking for stuff, where did i define this float, where's my method paramters, where are the comments on this file, and you can find those by quickly sliding the scrollbar and looking for a color instead of reading it through |
| 07:09.31 | peterS | tcsetattr: I capitalise proper nouns. there actually *are* ambiguities that can be easily dispelled by doing so. |
| 07:09.37 | The_Vulture | picking out nouns/verbs in a text could give you quite a good general idea of what was being discussed |
| 07:09.53 | eXoDuS | and yes there are studies, seen it many times, and the last time i saw it was on a Mono presentation by miguel de icaza |
| 07:10.07 | MobyTurbo | The_Vulture: German does some special capitalization like that, forget how. |
| 07:10.29 | Guerin | peterS: several early texts, the one which springs to mind is a swordfighting manual from the c14th, was written in black and red - black for theory, red for practical information. That's what I'm talking about, in a way. |
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| 07:10.31 | tcsetattr | or you could just give up on words and communicate with colorful pictures, like some kind of cave-man. |
| 07:10.44 | eXoDuS | no, because words are faster |
| 07:10.48 | peterS | Guerin: those are large blocks of each, though, I'm guessing |
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| 07:10.55 | peterS | Guerin: not syntax highlighting |
| 07:10.55 | racoontje | Crap. |
| 07:11.00 | racoontje | Missed my flight. |
| 07:11.01 | skaught | tcsetattr: Do you ever use body language or tone? |
| 07:11.01 | peterS | Guerin: and I doubt it was for readability |
| 07:11.11 | Guerin | peterS: sure. But the principle applies. If you want to scan for practical stuff, it's easy to find. |
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| 07:11.40 | Guerin | peterS: I'm not sure WHY it was so, but I suspect there were traditional or symbolic reasons behind it. |
| 07:11.45 | peterS | Guerin: I actually do use subdued color highlighting. I just find anything with *any* brightness to it at all, as horribly distracting |
| 07:11.45 | skaught | tcsetattr: If you don't, then people will never have a clear idea of what you're talking about and probably think of you as a fool. If you do, then you're a hypocrite ;) |
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| 07:12.12 | peterS | skaught: body language adds information. color highlighting does not. |
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| 07:12.23 | mickeyks | peterS: most people don't need help parsing parts of speech once they know a language...but for someone learning a new language, verbs being in blue, for example, could be a useful tool |
| 07:12.27 | skaught | peterS: That argument isn't qualified. |
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| 07:12.32 | Guerin | skaught: but body language and tone are an integral part of language - color is not an integral part of text, it's an optional layer on top. |
| 07:12.45 | peterS | mickeyks: as a learning aid, perhaps. I don't think that's the use under discussion here |
| 07:12.51 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: You really think it's an evolutionary step forward to use representations that are less information rich? |
| 07:12.53 | Guerin | mickeyks: it's a very useful tool, indeed. |
| 07:12.57 | peterS | mickeyks: we're not talking about people new to C trying to pick it up here. |
| 07:12.58 | The_Vulture | s/rich/dense/ whatever |
| 07:12.59 | tcsetattr | body language, like drawing pictures, is a more primitive form of communication than the written word... |
| 07:13.00 | skaught | Guerin: Where is body language and tone defined as integral parts of language? Besides, they don't exist in text... |
| 07:13.03 | harlequin | whats a good filemanager other than nautilus? |
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| 07:13.14 | Guerin | skaught: you obviously know nothing about language. |
| 07:13.17 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: we aren't talking about replacing code with pictures |
| 07:13.26 | The_Vulture | we are talking about semantic markup with colours, or styles |
| 07:13.31 | peterS | harlequin: rox filer. not in debian. |
| 07:13.41 | MobyTurbo | harlequin: GWorkspace.app :-) |
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| 07:13.48 | The_Vulture | just like any report has headings, footnotes, etc, in different styles so you can pay attention to the right bits when you need to |
| 07:13.49 | peterS | harlequin: Windows Explorer. also not in debian, or indeed ported to Linux at all |
| 07:13.50 | Guerin | harlequin: /bin/bash |
| 07:14.00 | mickeyks | peterS: true, but you were talking about colors in regular english sentences (to Guerin). I'm just saying why I think it's different. |
| 07:14.02 | eXoDuS | what a pointless argument anyway, every single programming ide uses colors since every professional developer likes them. end of the story |
| 07:14.05 | The_Vulture | if you're looking through a book for the start of chapter two, you don't read each line, you look for the title font that says chapter 2 |
| 07:14.14 | skaught | Guerin: Well if you knew something about language then you could present a better argument... so please enlighten me. |
| 07:14.22 | The_Vulture | eXoDuS: "every" is an overgeneralisation, I'm sure there are some professional developers that don't |
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| 07:14.29 | The_Vulture | and you can turn them off in any reasonable IDE |
| 07:14.33 | peterS | mickeyks: colors to highlight parts of speech would be useful to aid people who are not fluent in the grammar and vocabulary of a language. I think they would *not* be useful to someone who already knows the language well. |
| 07:14.36 | The_Vulture | an IDE that forced you to use colours would be a bit insane |
| 07:14.38 | eXoDuS | The_Vulture: i *seriously* doubt it |
| 07:14.38 | tcsetattr | oh and here's another reason colors bother me... on every monitor I've seen, the default colors in vim with :syntax on (which seem to be VGA text mode defaults) are of variable brightness. If there's blue on the screen, I have to sit closer to the screen to read it. |
| 07:14.42 | Guerin | skaught: i'm not going to teach you the fundamentals of communication theory. Look it up. |
| 07:14.51 | The_Vulture | eXoDuS: you can speak for every, single, professional programmer on the planet? |
| 07:14.55 | mickeyks | peterS: i agree |
| 07:14.59 | The_Vulture | and just dismiss any that don't use colours as unprofessional.. |
| 07:15.02 | The_Vulture | that's rediculous |
| 07:15.07 | peterS | tcsetattr: that's an excellent argument for subdued colors. there's only a limited contrast range, then |
| 07:15.12 | harlequin | drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Apr 4 00:43 ldap |
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| 07:15.16 | harlequin | oops |
| 07:15.16 | harlequin | sorry :S |
| 07:15.21 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: :set background=dark |
| 07:15.27 | harlequin | peterS: cheers |
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| 07:15.29 | The_Vulture | the default colour scheme I get is designed for a white backgroudn, not a black one |
| 07:15.35 | The_Vulture | It's a lot easier when you use the right scheme |
| 07:15.36 | eXoDuS | The_Vulture: no, but from all the ones I know none of them doesnt use colors, so i can use a simple scientific practice and out of testing assume every professional programmer uses color until a theory refutes mine. |
| 07:15.45 | mickeyks | default color scheme in vim 6 is "evening," which is black background |
| 07:15.50 | The_Vulture | (although the scheme for background=dark is even more clown like than that of background=light ;) |
| 07:15.59 | skaught | Guerin: I know the fundamentals of communication theory, this is intepretation. Your "look it up" is hardly qualifying any of your statements... but whatever, I don't care that much |
| 07:16.01 | Guerin | this really seems to be divisive - I'm surprised, I thought it was trivially obvious that it's a case of horses for courses. |
| 07:16.02 | peterS | The_Vulture: the light background itself is counterproductive as well. light-on-dark is much easier to read, at least for me |
| 07:16.08 | The_Vulture | mickeyks: not for me it isn't.. |
| 07:16.24 | The_Vulture | peterS: From what I've learnt in UI courses light on dark on a screen is better, dark on light on paper.. |
| 07:16.32 | The_Vulture | I don't have anything but the course I've attended that can back that up though |
| 07:16.35 | Guerin | skaught: if you knew anything at all about communication and language, you'd not be trying to argue that tone and gesture are not integral parts of language. |
| 07:16.42 | tcsetattr | I'm convinced that the reason I can work on the computer for 12 hours a day while other people complain of eye strain is that they are always using X (or Windoze) and have bright backgrounds, and my background is black |
| 07:16.49 | eXoDuS | i sometimes edit code without colors, specially when editing script code files which the ide doesnt support, and it's a pain, i can't stand it for long enough |
| 07:16.52 | dan2 | peterS: agreed |
| 07:16.52 | mickeyks | The_Vulture: the user-manual even says so. are you sure you haven't changed your settings? |
| 07:16.52 | peterS | The_Vulture: yes. that sounds right. I prefer dark-on-light for something that is not backlit |
| 07:16.57 | MobyTurbo | harlequin: the idiot who came up with XML configuration files will be up against the wall when the revolution comes. |
| 07:17.04 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: That's probably quite true, I use a dark background |
| 07:17.07 | peterS | MobyTurbo: hehe |
| 07:17.09 | eXoDuS | tcsetattr: i work over 12 hours a day and I code most of the day with colors |
| 07:17.15 | The_Vulture | but the default colour scheme in vim when you turn syntax highlighting on is designed for a light background |
| 07:17.19 | The_Vulture | so it's a bitch to read on a dark one |
| 07:17.22 | Guerin | peterS: same here. I've always been pissed off that the web seems to be based on a "white paper black text" presumption |
| 07:17.23 | The_Vulture | that's why you have to :set background=dark |
| 07:17.24 | peterS | MobyTurbo: but of course - optimise the configuration file for the *computer*, rather than for the *person editing it*. |
| 07:17.28 | skaught | Guerin: I didn't say that they're not integral parts of language, I just said that they're not defined anywhere as being such. For example, in WRITTEN language, they simply cannot exist in their original forms. There are additional characters to emulate tone. |
| 07:17.28 | The_Vulture | then it's slightly more legible |
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| 07:17.35 | The_Vulture | peterS: *nods* |
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| 07:17.41 | skaught | Guerin: If you knew anything about language maybe you could read a little more carefully |
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| 07:17.46 | The_Vulture | mickeyks: It might be my vimrc.. let's see.. |
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| 07:17.58 | MobyTurbo | peterS: especially human-edited configuration files. If a computer is going to edit the file then I suppose XML could be usable. |
| 07:18.04 | peterS | The_Vulture: so, for a computer screen that isn't backlit, like my watch, I do like dark-on-light |
| 07:18.10 | Guerin | skaught: you're so far off the mark it isn't funny. |
| 07:18.16 | peterS | MobyTurbo: exactly |
| 07:18.17 | NForcer | Morning. |
| 07:18.19 | The_Vulture | peterS: *nods* |
| 07:19.05 | tcsetattr | oh yeah, that other color scheme is even brighter |
| 07:19.17 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: well that's the idea, yes |
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| 07:20.10 | The_Vulture | it's hardly childish, but if for whatever reason you'd rather not use it, we aren't saying you have to, but I think it's a bit silly to think that anyone who would use syntax highlighting is somehow beneath you/childish |
| 07:20.31 | racoontje | Ehm, what? :D |
| 07:20.33 | The_Vulture | I think there are reasonably good arguments to markup text that's being read/modified, as I've explained, but whatever. |
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| 07:20.53 | Guerin | The_Vulture: I'm right with you on this one. |
| 07:20.59 | NForcer | ack |
| 07:22.21 | tcsetattr | if programming languages were meant to be colorful, I'd be able to use "int" as a variable name by typing it in the "variable name" color rather than the "type keyword" color |
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| 07:22.36 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: not true |
| 07:22.38 | tcsetattr | now there's an idea for an evil language |
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| 07:23.42 | eXoDuS | tcsetattr: languages are NOT meant to be colorful |
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| 07:23.54 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: try whitespace, then you can mark it up with anything you want, HTML, tex, etc.. |
| 07:23.55 | Guerin | tcsetattr: once again: syntax highlighting is an interpretive thing. It's nothing to do with the actual code, as you've said, the compiler doesn't care. It's purely for the benefit of the user. |
| 07:23.56 | eXoDuS | colors are just used by whatever editor you use to read your code for you to more easily scan through your code |
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| 07:25.11 | tcsetattr | well I don't think the editor's job includes showing me things that are not part of the file being edited |
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| 07:26.04 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: ok, you brought up code examples in books, I submit to you Stroustrup's The C++ Programming Language, which in its code examples uses various font styles for different parts of the languages |
| 07:26.09 | The_Vulture | italic literals, bold keywords, etc.. |
| 07:26.11 | eXoDuS | tcsetattr: if you dont like it fine for you, for me it helps me read through the thousands of lines of code my projects have |
| 07:26.14 | Guerin | tcsetattr: you don't use emacs, do you? That does a lot of things that aren't an editor's job :P |
| 07:26.16 | dustinw | I'm having a problem with X. I can use the 128x1024 resolution, just X won't start with that as it's default resolution. I have it set as the only resolution to use in XF86Config-4 but GNOME wants to start at 800x600. I then have to manually change to 1280x1024. Anyone have any idea what the problem may be? |
| 07:26.21 | tcsetattr | if I was editing a fiel that contained terminal escape sequences for color, and the editor was smart enough to show them to me as colored text and let me edit the colors, that would make sense. |
| 07:26.22 | The_Vulture | how is this significantly different from coloured highlighting? |
| 07:26.26 | dustinw | 1280x1024* |
| 07:26.43 | tcsetattr | The_Vulture, I haven't seen that book but I imagine I'd find the chaninging of fonts in mid-code to be distracting. |
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| 07:27.22 | eXoDuS | what you are saying is like "if man was meant to fly, he'd have wings" |
| 07:27.23 | mickeyks | dustinw: have you done dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86? |
| 07:27.37 | tcsetattr | it's not significantly different, except that printing all the code in full color would probably have made the book more expensive |
| 07:27.44 | mickeyks | dustinw: or looked at /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 |
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| 07:27.52 | dustinw | yes, the config works fine |
| 07:28.01 | dustinw | I just think it may have something to do with my nVidia driver |
| 07:28.18 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: expense is one thing, Guerin mentioned another point that colours tend to be a bit more personal (although Stroustrup does discuss/justify why he did use non-fixed width fonts at least) |
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| 07:28.25 | The_Vulture | but I think it was mainly expense |
| 07:28.48 | dustinw | I'll try to reconfigure. I'll also make a backup of my current config, so we can see if that isn't the problem. |
| 07:28.52 | tcsetattr | all the programming books I can remember reading have always used a single fixed-width font for the code listings |
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| 07:29.05 | dustinw | brb |
| 07:29.10 | tcsetattr | bleah, he used variable-width font too? that's definitely evil. Good thing I don't like C++ anyway |
| 07:29.20 | The_Vulture | fixed width there |
| 07:29.30 | eXoDuS | tcsetattr against the world |
| 07:29.34 | eXoDuS | today's parody |
| 07:29.39 | eXoDuS | time to keep coding |
| 07:30.03 | tcsetattr | the world mostly uses black-and-white code texts with fixed-width fonts ... I think I'm mostly on the world's side |
| 07:30.16 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: in editors, that's not really the case |
| 07:30.23 | eXoDuS | the world uses colors for programming languages |
| 07:30.24 | Guerin | tcsetattr: I dunno how you'd quantify that |
| 07:30.33 | The_Vulture | while none of us really have surveys to support that, but I'm betting most programmers use syntax highlighting |
| 07:31.05 | The_Vulture | I'd agree that most listings in books are fixed width single font, although I suspect that might change, Stroustrup's a good start imho |
| 07:31.07 | tcsetattr | ok, I'll go to a bookstore and look in the computer section, see if I can find any variable-width fonts in code listings |
| 07:31.21 | The_Vulture | I wouldn't necessarily advocate changes in books, I was merely giving Stroustrup as an example of formatting in text |
| 07:31.46 | OhMyAchingGut | syntax-highlighting is probably the most important feature in a text editor for me |
| 07:31.52 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: then walk into some random software house and count the number of programmers using syntax highlighting |
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| 07:32.09 | OhMyAchingGut | i'll use an editor i don't really like (such as emacs) if its the only one on a box with syntax-highlighting |
| 07:32.10 | NForcer | The_Vulture: Only if it is not Microsoft :) |
| 07:32.12 | The_Vulture | I'd go see if I Could get slashdot to do a survey (if they haven't already) but /. users are hardly representative |
| 07:32.22 | nullvalue | hi if i just have an ip redirection setting for a domain... can i still use bind to run multiple sites? |
| 07:32.34 | The_Vulture | OhMyAchingGut: not many boxes don't have vim these days |
| 07:32.39 | nullvalue | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:32.43 | The_Vulture | NForcer: why would MS be different? |
| 07:32.55 | tcsetattr | you'd have to have some way of eliminating the lousy programmers from the survey |
| 07:32.56 | NForcer | The_Vulture: Visual Studio? |
| 07:32.59 | OhMyAchingGut | The_Vulture, i like Vim even less than emacs heh |
| 07:33.11 | OhMyAchingGut | i'm one of the minority who in the emacs vs. vi debate |
| 07:33.14 | OhMyAchingGut | chooses neither one |
| 07:33.23 | nullvalue | anyone? |
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| 07:33.30 | mickeyks | NForcer: that doesn't have syntax highlighting? |
| 07:33.36 | The_Vulture | OhMyAchingGut: *shrugs* rightio |
| 07:33.39 | eXoDuS | mickeyks: yes it does |
| 07:33.41 | The_Vulture | NForcer: what about it? |
| 07:33.49 | nullvalue | emacs is horrible |
| 07:33.50 | mickeyks | eXoDuS: i would think so |
| 07:33.52 | NForcer | Oh i missread your statement above... |
| 07:33.57 | Guerin | emacs is awesome |
| 07:33.57 | sap | Does anyone know why connecting a SCSI drive to my system results in a '/sbin/init : 418 cant't open dev/console: No such file'? The kernel then panics. If I unplug the drive it's ok. Under Windows the drive is fine. |
| 07:33.58 | nullvalue | i'm used to vi |
| 07:34.04 | NForcer | I thought you meant only some use it. |
| 07:34.06 | OhMyAchingGut | VS is a pain |
| 07:34.13 | eXoDuS | VS is nice |
| 07:34.16 | eXoDuS | why is it a pain |
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| 07:34.26 | nullvalue | visual studio? lol |
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| 07:34.33 | NForcer | VS is.. no comment.. |
| 07:34.36 | nullvalue | kdevelop is much better :-) |
| 07:34.39 | eXoDuS | no |
| 07:34.45 | eXoDuS | vs is an excellent product |
| 07:34.49 | eXoDuS | be it microsoft or not |
| 07:34.57 | nullvalue | for that price? it's ridiculous |
| 07:34.57 | eXoDuS | but it's a complete suite and it just works (tm) |
| 07:35.00 | OhMyAchingGut | ?!? |
| 07:35.00 | eXoDuS | oh yeah |
| 07:35.04 | eXoDuS | the price is ridicolous |
| 07:35.06 | eXoDuS | can't argue on that |
| 07:35.07 | OhMyAchingGut | i guess it works |
| 07:35.12 | OhMyAchingGut | we had hell with it in my robotics class |
| 07:35.29 | OhMyAchingGut | its problem is its designed just for large projects |
| 07:35.29 | sap | eXoDuS: do use use the deafult editor in VS? |
| 07:35.33 | eXoDuS | I've used it before and use it from time to time when doing windows builds or windows specific bug fixing |
| 07:35.36 | eXoDuS | and it's ok |
| 07:35.39 | OhMyAchingGut | MS needs an ap designed for smaller jobs |
| 07:35.43 | eXoDuS | sap: yeah, i just installed it and used it |
| 07:35.49 | eXoDuS | sap: as it's out of the box |
| 07:35.52 | tcsetattr | in fact, a lot of bugs are due to programmers who don't really understand the language they're using. And giving them crutches like color-coded text is not helping that problem. |
| 07:35.54 | OhMyAchingGut | if i'm a student, i don't need something that creats a half dozen project files |
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| 07:36.14 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: actually VS creates 2 project files, an dsw and a dsp per project |
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| 07:36.21 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: and it's quicker/easier than makefiles |
| 07:36.31 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i'd say thats two more than i need |
| 07:36.31 | sap | eXoDuS: i use VS daily .. tried to get vim integrated in it but didn't get on too well with it |
| 07:36.45 | eXoDuS | sap: hehe, is that even possible? |
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| 07:36.48 | OhMyAchingGut | and students found it a pain to for example |
| 07:36.55 | OhMyAchingGut | code a c++ program at home |
| 07:37.01 | nullvalue | and i got a copy of longhorn... it's nothing great... i don't see what m$ is bragging about |
| 07:37.03 | OhMyAchingGut | and utilize it in VS at school(where the robots are) |
| 07:37.04 | tcsetattr | you ought to understand syntax if you're a programmer. If your brain doesn't automatically recognize the things that get "highlighted" by a bloaty editor, you still have some learning to do. |
| 07:37.10 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: wtf? doing a makefile is less a pain? |
| 07:37.13 | sap | eXoDuS: yeah, there's an official vim plugin for VS |
| 07:37.19 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: That's not the point |
| 07:37.21 | eXoDuS | sap: that's cool |
| 07:37.26 | peterS | eXoDuS: if you know make syntax, basic Makefiles are really easy |
| 07:37.29 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, the vendor supplied makefiles |
| 07:37.32 | OhMyAchingGut | for their robotics API |
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| 07:37.41 | NForcer | Question: My shell from time to time tells me: kernel: Disabling IRQ #9 Sometimes the whole day nothing happens, sometimes this message come several times a day.. |
| 07:37.42 | eXoDuS | oh well in that case it's different |
| 07:37.42 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: Things that are visually marked up are easier to read, on a pure information density level it seems pretty clear |
| 07:37.54 | NForcer | Any ideas? |
| 07:38.00 | The_Vulture | I find them easier to read, you don't have to, but trying to say others shouldn't is a bit narrow minded |
| 07:38.02 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i had problems understanding why people would just paste their code into it, and have insane problems |
| 07:38.04 | pme | gnu make extensions make complicated makefiles easy. Or use automake and let it generate all the nasty crap. |
| 07:38.12 | OhMyAchingGut | i chose to use kdevelop under linux instead |
| 07:38.13 | eXoDuS | tcsetattr: no matter how many programming years you have if you are looking for comments in a 10k lines file, without colors you will have to scroll too slow |
| 07:38.17 | peterS | pme: yeah, nasty crap is right |
| 07:38.19 | NForcer | kdevelop is nice |
| 07:38.23 | peterS | pme: it goes way overboard in *that* department (: |
| 07:38.27 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: good for you |
| 07:38.33 | tcsetattr | it's not more dense... it's more redundant. There's not more informatino, it's the same information presented in 2 ways (the real way and the clown way) |
| 07:38.41 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: still vs is a better development package than kdevelop or anjuta |
| 07:38.43 | peterS | eXoDuS: why would you be "looking for comments"? |
| 07:38.53 | peterS | eXoDuS: if you've got something you're searching for, why not use a search function? |
| 07:38.57 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: and mind you, kdevelop is just an IDE, VS is an ide, compiler, debugger, etc |
| 07:39.04 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i suppose. i personally find VI un-intuitive, but thats me |
| 07:39.06 | eXoDuS | peterS: because I dont know the words in it duh |
| 07:39.09 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: My brain can recognise the colour as a keyword and discard it without doing any kind of glyph recognition if I don't care about what identifier it is |
| 07:39.14 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, um, kdevelop has a compiler and debugger |
| 07:39.16 | The_Vulture | or if it's a comment, I can just block the whole thing out of my mind |
| 07:39.20 | The_Vulture | without looking for the matching */ |
| 07:39.23 | pme | peterS: well, the excessively portable bits. My opinion these days is that some fairly-recent implementation of make can be assumed; users of SunOS 4.3 or Ultrix can just kiss my 21st-century ass. :-) |
| 07:39.23 | eXoDuS | peterS: i know there's a comment descirbing the triggers in the player datablock, i want to look it |
| 07:39.25 | OhMyAchingGut | have you used kdevelop? |
| 07:39.29 | The_Vulture | This is not a bad thing. |
| 07:39.31 | tcsetattr | yes, search function. And vim's [/ and ]/ commands for finding the end or beginning of a large comment when you're in the middle. Or the % command for jumping from beginning to end or vice versa |
| 07:39.33 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: no it doesnt, kdevelop uses gcc/gdb |
| 07:39.43 | peterS | eXoDuS: you're telling me you've got a 10k file and it's got comments in it and what is really useful to you is to fine a comment, *any* comment, without knowing in advance anything about what it will say? |
| 07:39.47 | peterS | eXoDuS: that's absurd |
| 07:39.54 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, which are integrated into it nicely |
| 07:40.04 | eXoDuS | peterS: any comment? did I say ANY? |
| 07:40.06 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: I think using my brains already highly developed image analysis abilities is a great idea.. |
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| 07:40.10 | eXoDuS | peterS: stop making pointless arguments |
| 07:40.18 | peterS | eXoDuS: you're paging through "looking for comments" |
| 07:40.23 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: sure, but it's not it's compiler |
| 07:40.27 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: VS is a whole package |
| 07:40.29 | peterS | eXoDuS: tell me how this is useful if you don't have any idea what they will say, in advance |
| 07:40.37 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, yeah thats kind of problem with VS in general |
| 07:40.39 | eXoDuS | peters, yes because one of those comments has info i need to read |
| 07:40.44 | tcsetattr | well you have your cave-man brain and I have my language-oriented brain :) |
| 07:40.46 | peterS | eXoDuS: how do you know that? |
| 07:40.51 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i can believe its great for some people in other situations |
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| 07:40.53 | eXoDuS | peterS: because i read it before |
| 07:40.57 | peterS | eXoDuS: and if you know that, how do you not know some search term to look for? |
| 07:41.01 | eXoDuS | peterS: or another dev told me to look for a comment in that file |
| 07:41.12 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, but it takes the usual MS approach of trying to pound a nail with a sledgehammer |
| 07:41.15 | peterS | eXoDuS: the other dev should have given you *some* idea what you were looking for |
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| 07:41.27 | eXoDuS | peterS: !!! dont be silly, if i look for the word 'trigger' in that file i will get hundreds of matches |
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| 07:41.31 | The_Vulture | tcsetattr: It's not cave man. I can read the language and do other tasks, recognising a colour is faster than typing 3 characters, or reading the text, I'll read it if I need to, but I can do a lot of things without reading it |
| 07:41.34 | OhMyAchingGut | anyways, its silly to debate CS in #debian |
| 07:41.41 | peterS | eXoDuS: talk about a needle in a haystack. "the info you need, which you have no idea what it will look like, will be somewhere in this file. it'll be in a comment, which will highlight in red." |
| 07:41.43 | The_Vulture | colours tell me if it's this or that, without me having to read it and decide whether it's this or that, until I need to |
| 07:41.54 | OhMyAchingGut | s/CS/VS |
| 07:41.55 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: a nail ? i dont understand your point |
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| 07:42.09 | eXoDuS | peterS: yes exactly |
| 07:42.16 | *** part/#debian grelli (grelli@S010600a024bf32cd.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 07:42.16 | eXoDuS | peterS: so i look for red text, and read it |
| 07:42.18 | tcsetattr | AchyGuy, if someone asks a Debian question that I can answer, I'll do that instead of continuing the syntax/color rant |
| 07:42.19 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i'm a college student. VS is very ill-suited for everything we do |
| 07:42.20 | eXoDuS | peterS: until i find what i need |
| 07:42.25 | peterS | eXoDuS: there will be a *lot* of red text |
| 07:42.25 | NForcer | My shell from time to time tells me: kernel: Disabling IRQ #9 Sometimes the whole day nothing happens, sometimes this message come several times a day.. |
| 07:42.28 | pme | I think we can safely sum up the last 100 lines of chat with "newsflash! different coders have different styles of working!" and move on to something more productive, like hardware bashing. |
| 07:42.33 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: and im a game developer, and VS is well suited for what i do |
| 07:42.35 | NForcer | Any ideas? |
| 07:42.40 | peterS | eXoDuS: if you have no idea what you're looking for, none of it will jump out at you, and the fact that it's red will help you very little |
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| 07:42.44 | eXoDuS | peterS: yes, but much less than the word 'trigger' |
| 07:42.52 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, well, that proves what i said. it is ideal for some people. it isn't for a lot of others |
| 07:43.03 | eXoDuS | peterS: yeah whatever, ever saw source code commented with doxygen? |
| 07:43.10 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, and as a program that tries to be so full-featured, i find that annoying |
| 07:43.10 | peterS | eXoDuS: yes I have, actually |
| 07:43.14 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: but kdevelop isn't better |
| 07:43.28 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i would think it would be good for games though, assuming you utilize directx |
| 07:43.31 | eXoDuS | peterS: ok, how can you find easy to read a doxygened file withou colors? |
| 07:43.36 | peterS | eXoDuS: doxygen markup isn't meant to be read inline, it's meant to be extracted into a manual |
| 07:43.38 | NForcer | This discussion is like discussing whether to put strawberry or cherry marmelade on the toast.. :) |
| 07:43.41 | eXoDuS | peterS: in a class header with 3-4 lines of comments per value |
| 07:43.43 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, kdevelop and kwrite work better, FOR ME |
| 07:43.47 | peterS | eXoDuS: once it *has* been extracted into a manual, there you have it. |
| 07:43.52 | eXoDuS | peterS: i know but it IS in the source |
| 07:44.00 | eXoDuS | peterS: i dont care about the comments |
| 07:44.04 | eXoDuS | i care about the code in-between |
| 07:44.10 | mickeyks | NForcer: i think it's a lot more like whether flavoring one's toast is a sign of weakness |
| 07:44.13 | eXoDuS | and having it all in plain color makes it a pain to read what's code and what's not |
| 07:44.34 | peterS | eXoDuS: oh. you should have said so to begin with. the example you picked, of looking for comments, was a bad one, then |
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| 07:44.36 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: i use anjuta and i love it, since it's free and runs on my gnome desktop |
| 07:44.41 | NForcer | mickeyks: Yeah.. These damn cherry marmalade eaters, when will they understand that strawberry rules :) |
| 07:44.46 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: but i will never claim it's better than visual studio (with all it's flaws) |
| 07:44.48 | sap | anyone know what causes dev/console to be created? |
| 07:44.52 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, never heard of that one. i'll have to check it out |
| 07:44.53 | mickeyks | NForcer: that's not what i mean at all |
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| 07:45.00 | eXoDuS | peterS: it was just yet another example |
| 07:45.00 | NForcer | mickeyks: Explain.. |
| 07:45.01 | tcsetattr | I don't understand the comment-color thing at _all_. Comments already stand out by virtue of their placement. And my brain recognizes the "/*" and "*/" shapes as easily as any color... |
| 07:45.14 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: i was using kdevelop till anjuta could support the size of my project |
| 07:45.21 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: i never liked kdevelop |
| 07:45.22 | mickeyks | NForcer: plain toast vs. flavored toast. |
| 07:45.27 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, all i can say is i'm much more efficient doing my coding with KDE tools than my fellow students with VS...and has nothing to do with my own abilities |
| 07:45.28 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: qt is too slow for my taste |
| 07:45.29 | peterS | tcsetattr: to say nothing of the row of * characters, or extra indentation, on multi-line comments |
| 07:45.32 | NForcer | mickeyks: Now i got it :) |
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| 07:45.44 | NForcer | mickeyks: Yeah, you're right |
| 07:45.48 | tcsetattr | what's the test for this? show me a screen of code and time the milliseconds it takes me to point to the comment? I bet I can do it just as fast as any color-spotting caveman |
| 07:45.51 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: vs does a better job at code analysis than both kdevelop and anjuta together |
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| 07:45.58 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: it finds definiition more intelligently |
| 07:46.09 | tcsetattr | unless the code is purposely badly formatted to disguise the syntax |
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| 07:46.25 | NForcer | mickeyks: But as long as everyone doesn`t remain hungry, both can fullfill their purpose |
| 07:46.35 | eXoDuS | tcsetattr: the problem is not with a fucking SINGLE screen |
| 07:46.41 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, well than i guess my problem is its a poor tool for students, and works horribly with the ARI API we used for robotics coding |
| 07:46.42 | eXoDuS | tcsetattr: it's with scrolling through 10k lines of code |
| 07:47.02 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: probably because it weasnt meant to be used with VS |
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| 07:47.07 | tcsetattr | well you're scrolling through a sequence of screens. |
| 07:47.11 | peterS | eXoDuS: I still say - scrolling manually is a very poor substitute for a search function |
| 07:47.11 | mickeyks | NForcer: sure, but the dry toast people evangelizing the flavor toast people is weird |
| 07:47.14 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: if that api had no makefiles and a visual studio solution instead you would have trouble with make |
| 07:47.22 | NForcer | mickeyks: lol |
| 07:47.26 | eXoDuS | peterS: at times it is |
| 07:47.30 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, ironically, it seems to be equally used on both platforms |
| 07:47.33 | NForcer | mickeyks: My god, now we discuss the food industry ... |
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| 07:47.44 | eXoDuS | peterS: i use search a lot, but sometimes i scroll, that's not an excuse for saying that color syntaxing is the devil |
| 07:48.09 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, my other problem with VS its its insanely bloated...i can fit a full linux install with all the trimmings in the space that VS requires |
| 07:48.15 | peterS | eXoDuS: I don't think I ever said it was the devil. but scrolling just to look for particular *element types* seems pretty useless, if you don't have any particular keywords you are really looking for |
| 07:48.19 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: yes i wont argue on that |
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| 07:48.29 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: but it's still a better and more comfortable environment to work in |
| 07:48.34 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i had to trim a lot just to fit it on my laptops windows partition |
| 07:48.38 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: and visual studio 6 starts up and works faster than kdevelop |
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| 07:49.00 | eXoDuS | peterS: what if what you are looking for is what you just typed 3 pages up? |
| 07:49.19 | peterS | OhMyAchingGut,eXoDuS: from my quotes file: "On the other hand, with the advent of MSVC 5, I can claim I use Emacs because it's smaller and more efficient. :-)" - Darin Johnson |
| 07:49.20 | eXoDuS | the time of doing a search, hitting wrap and finding what you searched for is longer than just hitting page up 3 times |
| 07:49.20 | Guerin | wtf is people's obsession with application startup times, and OS boot times? How many times do you have to start up a common app anyway? |
| 07:49.25 | mickeyks | ack, it's almost 4am |
| 07:49.34 | ykphuah | eXoDuS: you can do a reverse search. |
| 07:49.42 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, if VS had something like kwrite i would be a lot happier at school |
| 07:49.45 | pme | oh, who cares about the startup time? I start up such an app /once/ a day, then leave to get a drink. |
| 07:49.50 | eXoDuS | ykphuah: yeah, which means clicking on reverse search check |
| 07:49.51 | ykphuah | eXoDuS: in vi, that's a '?' instead of '/' |
| 07:49.54 | eXoDuS | im talking about gui editors btw |
| 07:49.55 | OhMyAchingGut | peterS, funny |
| 07:50.02 | ykphuah | eXoDuS: oh ok, sorry... |
| 07:50.12 | Guerin | eXoDuS: not in emacs it doesn't |
| 07:50.24 | eXoDuS | Guerin: jesus, you have a problem reading |
| 07:50.26 | eXoDuS | <eXoDuS> im talking about gui editors btw |
| 07:50.32 | peterS | Guerin: some people have never heard of gnuclient (: |
| 07:50.33 | eXoDuS | i dont care a fuck about emacs |
| 07:50.39 | ykphuah | eXoDuS: which one? kwrite? :P |
| 07:50.40 | Guerin | eXoDuS: oh, and emacs isn't a gui editor at all... |
| 07:50.41 | tcsetattr | if it takes more than a second to search a single source file, your source files are too big. modularize! |
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| 07:50.54 | eXoDuS | Guerin: emacs is a piece of shit |
| 07:50.58 | Guerin | eXoDuS: you don't know a fuck about emacs either, by the sounds |
| 07:51.04 | OhMyAchingGut | this is a ridiculous argument though |
| 07:51.06 | eXoDuS | ykphuah: no, anjuta, kdevelop or visual studio |
| 07:51.13 | OhMyAchingGut | everyone has their preferences obviously |
| 07:51.14 | ykphuah | eXoDuS: ic... |
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| 07:51.21 | eXoDuS | Guerin: uh sure dude |
| 07:51.22 | OhMyAchingGut | as long as t gets the work done |
| 07:51.23 | owner | what is a good irc client for console? |
| 07:51.28 | OhMyAchingGut | owner, irssi |
| 07:51.31 | NForcer | owner: Irssi |
| 07:51.32 | eXoDuS | owner: irssi |
| 07:51.34 | MobyTurbo | what does Visual Studio have to do with #debian anyway? |
| 07:51.35 | *** join/#debian scoopexH (~marc@td9091ad4.pool.terralink.de) |
| 07:51.38 | OhMyAchingGut | i guess its unanimous |
| 07:51.41 | owner | wow =) |
| 07:51.42 | pme | owner: anything that isn't xchat-text |
| 07:51.46 | OhMyAchingGut | even though i spelled that wrong |
| 07:51.47 | eXoDuS | owner: you know the answer =] |
| 07:51.56 | *** join/#debian Reubot (~Reubot@c210-49-36-67.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) |
| 07:52.03 | OhMyAchingGut | MobyTurbo, not a damn thing. my fault. |
| 07:52.05 | owner | thx y'all |
| 07:52.10 | *** join/#debian tiefsee (~div@213.39.193.117) |
| 07:52.18 | pme | owner: now, /that/'s quick service |
| 07:52.21 | Guerin | eXoDuS: well, how else can you explain referring to emacs as a non-gui editor? |
| 07:52.29 | tcsetattr | I maintain my tradition of dissent by saying there's nothing wrong with ircii |
| 07:52.48 | MobyTurbo | emacs21 has some GUI support.... |
| 07:52.52 | Guerin | tcsetattr: you're just spoiling for fights today, aren't you :) |
| 07:53.04 | ykphuah | not another emacs war, please... |
| 07:53.07 | Guerin | MobyTurbo: emacs has had gui for ages. |
| 07:53.09 | Rickyx | how do i autodelete spam ? i'm running qmail + spamassassin + clamav + qmail-scanner on Sarge. I've enabled Maildir delivery in /etc/init.d/qmail, "| preline procmail" in .qmail and created a .procmailrc. But still procmail doesn't seem to function. |
| 07:53.13 | pme | I believe my answer "anything that isn't xchat-text" agrees with tcsetattr as well. :-) |
| 07:53.23 | eXoDuS | Guerin: because it's not a proper gui app, it's an weird piece of stuff cranked all together in the same cvs and compiled under the same name, which among many things can open windows and buttons and crap like the like |
| 07:53.25 | OhMyAchingGut | i've never even seen x-chat text |
| 07:53.35 | ykphuah | Rickyx: that should goes to #qmail. |
| 07:53.36 | MobyTurbo | Guerin: true, but emacs21 increased that. |
| 07:53.37 | eXoDuS | Guerin: sure, then vi has gui too, gtk-vi |
| 07:53.38 | Guerin | eXoDuS: pure bullshit. |
| 07:53.38 | peterS | MobyTurbo: yeah, emacs 19 was the first mainstream emacs to have gui support. and that came out in ... I dunno, 1992? 1993? |
| 07:53.40 | tcsetattr | hey it's not my fault people are weird. What's irssi anyway? is it really that much better than ircii? |
| 07:53.41 | pme | Rickyx: "doesn't seem to function" doesn't tell us a thing... |
| 07:53.56 | eXoDuS | Guerin: im talking about *real* tools like visual studio here |
| 07:53.58 | Guerin | eXoDuS: say what you mean. It has a gui, therefore it is a gui editor. |
| 07:53.58 | OhMyAchingGut | tcsetattr, never heard of ircii |
| 07:54.05 | eXoDuS | Guerin: and the counter linux options |
| 07:54.16 | eXoDuS | Guerin: whatever |
| 07:54.17 | tcsetattr | Gut, ircii is the one true irc client. All others are imitations of it. |
| 07:54.18 | OhMyAchingGut | tcsetattr, irssi is probably the most widely used console IRC client it seems |
| 07:54.30 | peterS | tcsetattr: I didn't use all the hairy features of ircii. but irssi has plenty of 'em. I particularly like the split window business. rather like emacs multiple windows in a frame |
| 07:54.31 | CoffeeMUG | because irssi is best |
| 07:54.33 | tcsetattr | how long as irssi been around? |
| 07:54.34 | Guerin | eXoDuS: oh, and emacs isn't a real tool at all... despite entire toolsets developed with it. |
| 07:54.36 | myXtie | ircII and irssi are miles apart , just diff |
| 07:54.36 | MobyTurbo | peterS: you must admit that until emacs21 the GUI support was more minimal. Not that this was a bad thing, I still kind of like the old interface - except for with gnus and M-x info and the like. |
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| 07:54.49 | tcsetattr | peterS, I'm using split window in ircii right now |
| 07:54.50 | pme | ircii ("irc 2") was the first IRC II client, and for a long time, the only one. |
| 07:55.03 | peterS | MobyTurbo: I have no idea what it looks like in emacs 21. all I've heard about emacs 21 is that they've finally gained some or most of the features xemacs 20 had 5 years ago |
| 07:55.05 | tcsetattr | /window new (and it also knows how to create new screens inside of screen, /window create) |
| 07:55.07 | Reubot | !irssi |
| 07:55.08 | dpkg | it has been said that irssi is the best irc client ever |
| 07:55.13 | myXtie | tehee i'm on ircII |
| 07:55.34 | eXoDuS | ok now i really gotta get back to coding |
| 07:55.39 | MobyTurbo | peterS: yes, it looks like GNU XEmacs at first blush. |
| 07:55.41 | eXoDuS | have fun |
| 07:56.09 | Guerin | fuck me, is it sunday already? |
| 07:56.20 | pme | unfortunately |
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| 07:56.36 | eXoDuS | Guerin: i rather not |
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| 07:56.53 | OhMyAchingGut | interesting name |
| 07:57.07 | Guerin | eXoDuS: you wouldn't stand a chance anyway |
| 07:57.16 | mickeyks | heh |
| 07:57.39 | pme | I spent my Saturday night fixing 12 bugs, editing my keyboard, and looking up RPC docs. Yes, I /am/ a geek. |
| 07:57.57 | pme | And now I hate RPC more than ever. |
| 07:58.21 | pme | XML-RPC is even more sucktacular than regular RPC too. |
| 07:58.32 | *** join/#debian ArTiS (~JacK@62.162.235.153) |
| 07:58.40 | Guerin | fucking hell, my music download service isn't letting me buy more tunes |
| 07:58.41 | peterS | pme: what is "regular RPC"? |
| 07:58.41 | *** join/#debian iNDigence (~antepfist@81.213.160.130) |
| 07:58.45 | peterS | pme: ONC? DCE? |
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| 07:58.58 | peterS | pme: heaven forbid, SOAP? |
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| 07:59.13 | tcsetattr | he probably means SUN RPC (as in the thing under NFS) |
| 07:59.24 | peterS | tcsetattr: probably. I did offer that as a choice |
| 07:59.30 | *** join/#debian isbiten_ (~isbiten@h83n1fls31o280.telia.com) |
| 07:59.31 | pme | peterS: whatever that crap is on Sun, since they invented it... |
| 07:59.36 | peterS | pme: that's ONC |
| 07:59.41 | pme | yep |
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| 07:59.50 | pme | the TLAs get me lost quickly |
| 07:59.52 | peterS | pme: it's simpler than DCE RPC, and for many purposes just as good |
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| 08:00.30 | *** part/#debian nahoo (~bennett@62-43-21-19.user.ono.com) |
| 08:00.33 | pme | I categorize tham all under "things I only have to fuck with once a decade, and even then it's too often". |
| 08:00.44 | micha_ | Can anybody help me with mono problems in current unstable? |
| 08:00.50 | *** join/#debian Tony[] (~chatzilla@tcladsl.claranet.co.uk) |
| 08:00.54 | peterS | pme: hehe. I think rpc is an interesting programming paradigm, myself, but I don't write enough distributed apps to actually have to learn the gory details |
| 08:00.57 | Tony[] | howdy# |
| 08:01.08 | pme | peterS: likewise |
| 08:01.28 | Guerin | !info mono sid |
| 08:01.34 | tcsetattr | /usr/share/doc/irssi-text/changelog.gz says the first release was 1999. That's quite late! Surely there must have been a compelling reason to create an ircii replacement after ircii had been popular for 7 or 8 years. But I can't think of what it might be |
| 08:01.37 | owner | One more quick question, what's a good console "instant messager"? |
| 08:01.42 | dpkg | mono: (The Mono .NET development environment), section interpreters, is optional. Version: 1.0-3 (sid), Packaged size: 1 kB, Installed size: 4 kB |
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| 08:02.18 | pme | Guerin: it was in some other repo for a long time. |
| 08:02.27 | peterS | Guerin: oh yes, it moved in maybe a month or two ago |
| 08:02.29 | MobyTurbo | owner: centericq is often said to be that |
| 08:02.33 | Tony[] | if I want to do a complete system backup for a partial bare metal restore a little later, which is better, dd, dump, cpio, or tar? |
| 08:02.33 | Guerin | owner: I think irssi can even do icq... but I hear centericq is quite good also. |
| 08:02.51 | MobyTurbo | Guerin: GMTA :-) |
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| 08:03.19 | Guerin | peterS: I think mono's an interesting concept - taking the bull by its long horns, so to speak. |
| 08:03.24 | Guerin | !gmta |
| 08:03.24 | dpkg | gmta is probably great minds think alike, or see gmafta |
| 08:03.28 | Guerin | hah |
| 08:03.38 | peterS | Guerin: hehe |
| 08:03.40 | owner | thx again y'all =) |
| 08:03.46 | micha_ | I have a fresh mono install in unstable but I get lots of assembly not found errors. Can anybody help? |
| 08:03.55 | Guerin | my economics teacher always said that great minds think alike, but dumb minds think the same |
| 08:04.05 | pme | Tony[]: for what you have in mind, doesn't really matter. Although, if you're including /dev nodes, make sure that your method can cope with special device nodes. |
| 08:04.29 | Tony[] | I'm not really worried about /dev |
| 08:04.45 | Tony[] | I'm worried about getting the apps installed the way they were |
| 08:04.50 | peterS | Guerin: for a unix programmer to choose to use C#, via mono, might be the ultimate in defeating a NIH attitude (: |
| 08:04.54 | *** part/#debian viri (~malei@pD9EC8794.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 08:05.06 | Guerin | !nih |
| 08:05.06 | dpkg | methinks nih is "Not Invented Here" - a syndrome often suffered by developers and companies who tend to reinvent the wheel for no reason other than being able to put their name on it. |
| 08:05.14 | pme | Tony[]: you might just get copies of the .deb's then, and reinstall them. Or consider rsync. |
| 08:05.14 | Guerin | ah |
| 08:05.36 | Tony[] | I'm changing a RAID card, so I have to put the system back together after I've recreated the arrays |
| 08:05.48 | peterS | Guerin: in this case, NIH == "I can't use *that*, it was thought up by Microsoft" |
| 08:06.11 | Tony[] | I have an IDE hdd to perform the backup to... I thought about cp -a |
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| 08:06.26 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, anjuta looks interesting. if nothing else, that argument got be to check out a new app :) |
| 08:06.31 | Tony[] | I bought a 250G IDE hdd specifically for the job |
| 08:06.37 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: heheh |
| 08:06.41 | *** join/#debian hannes_ (~hannes@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3909) |
| 08:06.48 | peterS | Tony[]: cp -a is great. 'cp -ax' is a nice variation that makes sure you only get the contents of a single filesystem |
| 08:06.49 | Guerin | peterS: yeah, that's what's interesting about it - it's tacit acknowledgement that ms are designing quality. |
| 08:06.50 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: it's nice, it's just a bit unpolished (judging from a VS point of view) |
| 08:06.53 | pme | Tony[]: some recent tar or cpio should be fine, if it's just a big regular-file slurp. |
| 08:06.59 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: although im used to it since i havent used VS in years |
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| 08:07.16 | peterS | Guerin: which is not the same as admitting that they *build* quality. but still, yeah. |
| 08:07.20 | comfrey | peterS, or sun and re-implimented by microsoft |
| 08:07.28 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, well it seems very much geared towards linux development, and thats where my main interest lies |
| 08:07.32 | Tony[] | what's the -x switch for save me opening a term |
| 08:07.40 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: yeah |
| 08:07.50 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: it's a pain setting something up not meant to be linux app |
| 08:07.50 | Guerin | peterS: exactly. And also rejecting their legal/licensing model all-out - the same thing, only free, therefore it must be better. |
| 08:07.51 | peterS | Tony[]: "stay on the same filesystem when recursing through the source dir" |
| 08:07.55 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: im doing crossplatform work with it |
| 08:07.57 | Tony[] | ok .. cool |
| 08:08.00 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: with custom makefiles |
| 08:08.23 | Tony[] | I figured cp -a would give access to individual files without having to screw with archives |
| 08:08.51 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, ah i see. linuxjournal had some interesting articles last month about cross-platform with mono, using Wine to test |
| 08:09.10 | peterS | Tony[]: exactly. 'cp -a' == "duplicate this whole dir, as best you can". 'cp -ax' is the same but if there are other filesystems involved (like if you're backing up "/" and it has "/proc" mounted on it), it leaves those alone |
| 08:09.37 | *** join/#debian eleki1 (~elekis@33-228.242.81.adsl.skynet.be) |
| 08:09.41 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: yeah, but not doing apps |
| 08:09.45 | *** join/#debian WcktKlwn (~WcktKlwn@3ffe:bc0:2e3:1:ffff:0:0:d) |
| 08:10.09 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, not doing apps? |
| 08:10.13 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: no |
| 08:10.19 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: and anjuta is kinda slow with big projects btw |
| 08:10.27 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, can you explain what you mean by that? |
| 08:10.28 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: it takes like 1 minute and some to open this thing |
| 08:10.36 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: that im not working on app development |
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| 08:11.00 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, what are you working on then...oh didn't you say games? |
| 08:11.05 | eXoDuS | yes |
| 08:11.07 | Tony[] | ok ... cp -ax it is then |
| 08:11.25 | Tony[] | I guess then diff the filesystems to check for inconsistences |
| 08:11.34 | pme | OhMyAchingGut: anything that ain't the kernel :-) |
| 08:11.45 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, don't suppose you've tried winex/cedega at all? |
| 08:11.53 | OhMyAchingGut | pme, thats what i would have said heh |
| 08:12.37 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: 'tried' |
| 08:12.43 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: to not much success |
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| 08:13.03 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i see. i've heard great things about it, but generally that it supports the latest things only |
| 08:13.23 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, so it doesn't surprise me entirely if your own games don't work...although thats disappointing :( |
| 08:13.24 | *** join/#debian Holborn (~holborn@237.Red-217-125-137.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 08:13.33 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: well, it couldn't run the new version of the torque game engine which uses directx9 pixel shader's and stuff |
| 08:13.37 | *** join/#debian minK (~virginia-@dsl81-215-37957.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 08:13.45 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, and if i remember right its completely closed, so that doesn't leave you much option other than windows |
| 08:14.00 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: what is completely closed? |
| 08:14.05 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i could swear i heard it supports directx9 |
| 08:14.13 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: yes, it supports dx9 |
| 08:14.15 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS, i thought winex/cedega was closed |
| 08:14.19 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: that doesnt mean every game works with it |
| 08:14.25 | eXoDuS | OhMyAchingGut: it's nto |
| 08:14.28 | eXoDuS | not |
| 08:14.29 | eXoDuS | they have cvs |
| 08:14.32 | OhMyAchingGut | eXoDuS,i see...i'm not much of a gamer |
| 08:14.36 | eXoDuS | it's based on wine so it will always stay gpl |
| 08:14.43 | OhMyAchingGut | ah thats very good |
| 08:14.47 | Reubot | Although |
| 08:14.58 | OhMyAchingGut | well i suppose you can always bug them to support the features you want |
| 08:14.59 | Reubot | they do use closed bits for the cd-protection parts I believe |
| 08:15.07 | Guerin | eXoDuS: it's not the whole thing though, is it? Parts of winex are proprietary, I'm sure. And the cvs isn't complete... |
| 08:15.09 | eXoDuS | yeah they have some closed parts |
| 08:15.14 | OhMyAchingGut | i sort of assumed that since its for $$$ that its closed |
| 08:15.33 | eXoDuS | they charge a subscription for those closed parts and for the binaries |
| 08:15.36 | eXoDuS | and the support |
| 08:15.37 | tcsetattr | /leave #windoze |
| 08:15.40 | *** part/#debian tcsetattr (pacman@manson.clss.net) |
| 08:15.59 | OhMyAchingGut | i see...i thought the whole thing was only available through subscription |
| 08:16.48 | Reubot | aka how to get drunk :) |
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| 08:17.16 | OhMyAchingGut | Reubot, no, i believe thats being discussed in brooklym at the moment |
| 08:17.21 | Reubot | XD |
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| 08:19.30 | Shorty` | what was the package name to get all the development packages for c? |
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| 08:19.58 | Guerin | Shorty`: libc6-dev? |
| 08:20.04 | *** join/#debian tarzeau (~tarzeau@80-219-64-151.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 08:20.14 | Guerin | Shorty`: I don't know if that gets them all, though |
| 08:20.32 | MobyTurbo | tarzeau: hi. :) |
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| 08:20.35 | *** join/#debian gallus (~gallus@81-208-60-203.fastres.net) |
| 08:20.41 | karsten | Are kernel-pcmcia-modules still needed in 2.6? |
| 08:20.52 | tarzeau | hi MobyTurbo |
| 08:21.06 | Guerin | karsten: I don't believe so, but I could be wrong... |
| 08:21.14 | *** join/#debian abaft (~abaft@130.118.205.68.cfl.rr.com) |
| 08:21.28 | karsten | Guerin: Can't find 'em. |
| 08:21.43 | karsten | Also alsa -- any idea? |
| 08:22.06 | Guerin | karsten: no, I only have 2.4 packages. |
| 08:22.07 | NForcer | My shell from time to time tells me: kernel: Disabling IRQ #9 Sometimes the whole day nothing happens, sometimes this message come several times a day.. Any ideas? |
| 08:22.17 | Guerin | karsten: um, yeah. Alsa is nice. |
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| 08:22.27 | Guerin | karsten: I mean, pcmcia modules for 2.4 |
| 08:22.27 | gallus | hi |
| 08:23.15 | alejandro_ | i'm using composer to edit my home page, but the some { and } are replaced with %7D and %7B, does anyone know a better editor? |
| 08:23.19 | pme | Shorty`: build-required, I think, so something like that |
| 08:23.19 | gallus | i can't compile my latex document on my debian because latex is not able to find lineno |
| 08:23.20 | Reubot | lib-alsa I ebeleive |
| 08:23.22 | karsten | Guerin: is there an alsa modules package for 2.6? |
| 08:23.28 | abaft | I'm putting together a lotsa-storage server. Any opinions on PATA vs. SATA and current kernel support? |
| 08:23.32 | Guerin | karsten: no, it's in-kernel |
| 08:23.35 | karsten | Guerin: Best I can tell, neither PCMCIA nor ALSA need seperate packages for 2.6. |
| 08:23.41 | karsten | Guerin: Schweet. |
| 08:23.41 | Guerin | karsten: yeah |
| 08:23.51 | gallus | Can i install it? or symply add it to my distribution? |
| 08:23.55 | karsten | Guerin: ...now a wee little 2h25m d/l.... |
| 08:24.00 | pme | abaft: if you want a really stable one, go with SCSI instead. |
| 08:24.07 | *** join/#debian un4gotten (~asd@un4gotten.registered) |
| 08:24.09 | Guerin | karsten: dial-up? |
| 08:24.10 | karsten | alejandro_: vim |
| 08:24.18 | *** part/#debian Godot (nobody@cs6710250-46.houston.rr.com) |
| 08:24.23 | karsten | Guerin: How'd you guess ;-) |
| 08:24.23 | alejandro_ | i need a gui :( |
| 08:24.28 | abaft | pme: Unfortunately, mirrored IDE is still cheaper than SCSI, and... |
| 08:24.29 | NForcer | Apropos Alsa, what do i need to to, to set it up so that several applications can play sounds / use sound devices simultary? |
| 08:24.36 | *** join/#debian jenipapo (~chf@mirail-4-82-227-180-36.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 08:24.36 | Guerin | alejandro_: gvim, or emacs |
| 08:24.41 | karsten | alejandro_: There are other editors, one w/ Mozilla. Another whose name I always forget. Amaya? |
| 08:24.46 | abaft | pme: One of the things I want to do is backup to (big, cheap) hard drive. |
| 08:24.50 | jenipapo | hi all |
| 08:24.53 | karsten | alejandro_: gvim ;-) |
| 08:24.55 | abaft | pme: That pretty much spells "IDE". |
| 08:24.57 | MobyTurbo | karsten: that's right, Amaya |
| 08:25.03 | karsten | abaft: Tape. |
| 08:25.07 | Guerin | karsten: I was on dial-up for what seemed like an eternity. When I left NZ, broadband wasnt' even available. |
| 08:25.09 | jenipapo | in bash, how to specify "do nothing" after an if? |
| 08:25.14 | karsten | MobyTurbo: tnx |
| 08:25.15 | Shorty` | build-essential - informational list of build-essential packages |
| 08:25.17 | Shorty` | thats it |
| 08:25.19 | abaft | I'm mot making the backup drives redundant because they already are a redundant mechanism. |
| 08:25.25 | pme | abaft: well, then, last I heard PATA was only half-done. SATA works but has the occasional glitch. Straight EIDE works fine. |
| 08:25.27 | karsten | Guerin: Why on _earth_ would anyone want to leave NZ? |
| 08:25.36 | pme | jenipapo: ":" |
| 08:25.37 | Guerin | karsten: I ask myself that every day |
| 08:25.45 | jenipapo | pme: thank you |
| 08:25.47 | abaft | pme: ????? EIDE *is* PATA..... what's the distinction you're making? |
| 08:25.48 | *** join/#debian FdisK (java@cpe-68-187-201-014.ash.nc.charter.com) |
| 08:25.53 | karsten | Guerin: Where are you now? |
| 08:26.27 | Guerin | karsten: south korea ... come on, don't tell me you forgot about our isp-blacklisting argument? |
| 08:26.28 | pme | abaft: somewhere in the development kernel they've started to draw some very fine lines. I don't follow them all myself. |
| 08:26.33 | Guerin | :) |
| 08:26.36 | alejandro_ | karsten, it is in apt? |
| 08:26.40 | alejandro_ | don't see it |
| 08:26.44 | karsten | Guerin: Ah... |
| 08:26.59 | abaft | PATA = Parallel ("classic") ATA. A name made up to distinguich it from the new Serial ATA.... |
| 08:27.11 | *** join/#debian Barby_sleeping (java@dialup-4.240.54.156.Dial1.Phoenix1.Level3.net) |
| 08:27.32 | karsten | Guerin: I believe in ASN blocklists. You're not on Kornet, Hanaro, Thrunet, or Dacom, I hope. |
| 08:28.02 | MobyTurbo | karsten: ASN? |
| 08:28.16 | karsten | MobyTurbo: google spam by asn |
| 08:28.22 | *** join/#debian Jay-Z (~SeciL__@pop-ultel-1.53.azeronline.com) |
| 08:28.27 | pme | abaft: yah, I know... at any rate, I'd just slap together some big honking regular classic drives, and do lvm2 or some such. |
| 08:28.33 | Guerin | karsten: I'm on KT megapass, which I believe is part of kornet. |
| 08:28.48 | *** join/#debian mashon (~mashon@adsl-62-167-192-165.adslplus.ch) |
| 08:29.00 | Guerin | karsten: I've read up a bit, and my position has softened a bit, but I'm still convinced there has to be a better way. |
| 08:29.13 | karsten | Guerin: Sec. |
| 08:29.19 | *** join/#debian SweeT (~SieRRa@adsluser-3952.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 08:30.22 | karsten | Guerin: Top four ASNs are 25% of my spam. Only one of those even uses my alphabet (Telstra). |
| 08:30.32 | abaft | pme: It's just that the motherboard I'm looking at has a lot of SATA on board, and I was thinking of using that for the main system drives. Then I got to thinking that if the backup drives were the same, they could be used as spares in need. |
| 08:30.35 | Guerin | karsten: my ip is on the rfc-ignorant whois blacklist, and mail from my home box does get bounced occasionally - I run everything through my smtp server in the US, and that stops the bounces, but this dirty ip addy stays in the headers, and it triggers some spamassassin rigs. |
| 08:30.58 | Guerin | karsten: yeah, i read your site. And your massive thread about tdma :) |
| 08:31.10 | karsten | Guerin: You can buy clean mail service for ~$5-10 US/mo |
| 08:31.16 | karsten | Guerin: ;-) |
| 08:31.42 | karsten | Guerin: Yeah, you're in ASN 4766. My top single source. |
| 08:32.04 | Guerin | karsten: heh, I can probably set up postfix to strip the ip from the headers on the way in. |
| 08:32.12 | karsten | Guerin: 11% of my spam as of the 9th. 183 of 1632 received. |
| 08:32.44 | *** join/#debian pw (~pw@cpc3-midd5-4-0-cust189.midd.cable.ntl.com) |
| 08:32.53 | pme | abaft: I'm using (not entirely by choice) a SATA drive as my main drive now. All was well until I plugged a regular old drive in, and the 2.6 kernel decided to renumber all the ideN channels and rename all the hdaX devices. :-( Took some hacking to get that right. |
| 08:32.59 | karsten | Guerin: Mind that's about a 5% improvement over the worst month, but it's still double the next comer (Telstra). |
| 08:33.14 | *** join/#debian classweb (~classweb@kf-sdm-tg04-0747.dial.kabelfoon.nl) |
| 08:33.14 | pme | abaft: But I haven't had any data loss errors so far. |
| 08:33.18 | Guerin | karsten: no surprise. This country is computing swiss cheese. Unpatched, unfirewalled, unmaintained win98, me, and xp boxen by the thousand, run by people who have no idea, on 20Mbps connections... |
| 08:33.22 | *** join/#debian hellsing (~quentin@hki1-4-4-59.hoasnet.inet.fi) |
| 08:33.25 | Reubot | hahah Telstra |
| 08:33.34 | classweb | HiO, where can i find the x config file? |
| 08:33.37 | *** join/#debian Password (~ManiacMan@dsl81-215-23151.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 08:33.47 | Guerin | classweb: /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 |
| 08:33.48 | karsten | Guerin: Yeah. The Korean schools project was an insane fsckup. |
| 08:33.57 | classweb | Guerin, thanx ;) |
| 08:34.03 | *** join/#debian SreViNG (~ScripTing@213.252.236.181) |
| 08:34.13 | Guerin | classweb: but use dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 to change things, or you'll likely fuck it up |
| 08:34.29 | classweb | Guerin, what can i do if my music are playing faster as he is? |
| 08:34.46 | MobyTurbo | classweb: most program's manpages show what are its configuration files towards the end of the page. |
| 08:35.18 | karsten | classweb: ...in the "FILES" section of the manpage. |
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| 08:35.21 | *** join/#debian myddd (~industri@203.130.207.179) |
| 08:35.29 | Guerin | karsten: yeah. When I check my ip at dshield.com, I get about a hundred hits. That's not MY ip specifically (not the one in whois), but the ip for my gateway, at the bottom of this apartment block |
| 08:35.34 | myddd | hiii |
| 08:35.57 | karsten | Guerin: dshield.com? |
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| 08:36.11 | abaft | pme: You can mount (including the root) based on various unique IDs, but that's a long-standing problem. |
| 08:36.19 | Guerin | karsten: there are ~400 apartments in this complex - if that means that 1/4 of them are pwned at any given point... well, you can extrapolate to the country |
| 08:36.33 | myddd | help.. my box is going to kernel panic every 10m!! |
| 08:36.37 | karsten | Guerin: Ah, got it. |
| 08:36.38 | Guerin | .org, sorry |
| 08:36.52 | myddd | i've check the processor and memry. |
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| 08:37.07 | karsten | Guerin: FWIW: Comcast and SBC are about as bad, though Comcast was blocked heavily by my ISP, and SBC appears to be improving. |
| 08:37.14 | myddd | pysically it's fine... |
| 08:37.21 | *** join/#debian Unfrgiven (~Unfrgiven@adsl-2-243.NSW.dft.com.au) |
| 08:37.30 | myddd | any suggestion.. |
| 08:37.31 | abaft | myddd: Are you SURE? Checking memory is tricky. |
| 08:37.31 | pme | abaft: hahahaha... I /was/ doing exactly that, then 2.6 got too confused to even /find/ the id's. |
| 08:37.34 | Guerin | karsten: comcast recently started blocking 25, right? I don't know SBC... |
| 08:37.39 | MobyTurbo | myddd: it appears there's something wrong with your keyboard. ;) |
| 08:38.04 | classweb | i have an 1024x768 lcd monitor (notebook) what are the most used horizontal sync range |
| 08:38.13 | *** join/#debian MeRwEciq`mut (~java@dsl81-215-28728.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 08:38.19 | Guerin | classweb: find out what yours uses, don';t guess |
| 08:38.26 | NForcer | Apropos Alsa, what do i need to to, to set it up so that several applications can play sounds / use sound devices simultary? |
| 08:38.32 | Guerin | classweb: or install read-edid and discover, then try again |
| 08:38.33 | myddd | yes, i've been change 3 times, and i think it's ok |
| 08:38.50 | karsten | myddd: General suggestions: 1. Run memtest86++ several cycles. 2. Check your temperature. Is it summer localtime? 3. Try minimizing module loads: run single user and let things load one at a time and run for a while until panics (or load half your modules, unload, load the ohter half). 4. Try same with HW: unplug half your peripherals, run, see if th eproblem goes away. |
| 08:38.55 | Guerin | !dmix |
| 08:39.00 | *** join/#debian jmau (~jmau@p5480C3D5.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:39.11 | pme | classweb: or, alternatively, read the monitor's documentation. If you guess wrong it's possible to set stuff on fire. |
| 08:39.22 | karsten | myddd: ...check for Sig11 errors on kernel with repeat kernel builds (or something similarly intensive). Look for errors associated with disk or swap. |
| 08:39.23 | Guerin | NForcer: There's dmix info on the alsa site - that's what you want. |
| 08:39.38 | NForcer | Guerin: Okay, thanks, i will take a look |
| 08:39.45 | myddd | before it i'm using no kebord (via ssh) and on screen tell debug memory ...kernel panic |
| 08:39.46 | *** join/#debian SabuesoGnU (~R@131.Red-213-98-160.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 08:39.56 | Guerin | NForcer: hit me with the link when you find it, I'll make a factoid |
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| 08:39.59 | karsten | Guerin: Yeah, Comcast *finally* started blocking 25 and cleaning clock on RAT'd customers. |
| 08:40.16 | karsten | Guerin: ...but they're in *lots* of personal blocklists right now. That's a bad place to be. |
| 08:40.25 | myddd | karsten:how could i check it... |
| 08:40.42 | pme | karsten: sorry, parse error. I know about the port 25 news, but what's "cleaning clock"? |
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| 08:40.49 | karsten | myddd: Check what? |
| 08:40.52 | Guerin | karsten: my gateway here filters some ports - but not 25. It'd be trivial to do, and would likely piss nobody off. |
| 08:41.06 | myddd | sigg11 or ... |
| 08:41.10 | karsten | pme: Cracking down on. Disconnecting service. |
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| 08:41.45 | pme | oh, /that/ kind of clock. I thought they were filtering NTP or something. :-) |
| 08:41.48 | karsten | Guerin: You'd be surprised. But IMO blocking :25 by default and offering open channels on request or as a value-add would be a massive win-win. |
| 08:41.49 | Guerin | karsten: really common explot poprts: 111,135,137-9,445,4444 |
| 08:41.53 | *** join/#debian Mr_Smiley (~rhys@CPE-144-136-171-75.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 08:42.07 | karsten | pme: Yeah, that's the DOT attack. Denial of Time... |
| 08:42.08 | *** join/#debian Alby (~alexi91@jeannedarc-3-82-67-86-187.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 08:42.17 | pme | heheh |
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| 08:42.19 | karsten | Guerin: Yeah. Any SMB proto... |
| 08:42.19 | Guerin | karsten: it'll never happen in korea though. Maybe not NEVER, but not anytime that I can see. |
| 08:42.19 | *** join/#debian mateusz (~mateusz@afe26.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 08:42.25 | mateusz | Hi |
| 08:42.32 | *** join/#debian Karlosis (~kay@p50839573.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 08:42.33 | mateusz | I try to configure squid as transparent proxy |
| 08:42.33 | karsten | Guerin: Seriously: :80, :22, :21, :110 |
| 08:42.36 | mateusz | on my web browser |
| 08:42.41 | *** join/#debian AndyCapp (andy@host35-19.pool80180.interbusiness.it) |
| 08:42.43 | karsten | Guerin: ...and DNS. |
| 08:42.44 | mateusz | I get Invalid URL |
| 08:42.47 | mateusz | Any help ? |
| 08:42.55 | Guerin | karsten: yeah. That's all that's needed :) |
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| 08:43.54 | niggar | hi |
| 08:44.00 | karsten | myddd: Google sig11 error. |
| 08:44.04 | Vinland | haha |
| 08:44.05 | abaft | karsten: Thanks for the info. I'm currently overhauling e-mail/spam @work, and your stuff looks very useful. |
| 08:44.08 | Vinland | nice nick |
| 08:44.15 | Guerin | !dmix is an alsa subsystem which allows a music device to play multiple sound streams simultaneously without the need of an external sound server. See http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php?page=DmixPlugin |
| 08:44.16 | dpkg | okay, Guerin |
| 08:44.25 | karsten | abaft: Thanks. Anything specific you're looking at? |
| 08:44.25 | mateusz | ??? |
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| 08:44.29 | niggar | if I want to use newest packagesi need change stable to testing in sources.list and then use apt-get update; apt-get upgrade and all? |
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| 08:44.35 | *** part/#debian Emiml (~emil@81.168.185.139) |
| 08:44.37 | karsten | !tell myddd about sig11 |
| 08:45.08 | NForcer | niggar: This will upgrade your woody to sarge |
| 08:45.11 | *** part/#debian Mr_Smiley (~rhys@CPE-144-136-171-75.sa.bigpond.net.au) |
| 08:45.19 | sirperc | hi all |
| 08:45.19 | *** join/#debian pngwn (~pngwn@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:8000:0:cda7:6106) |
| 08:45.27 | pme | niggar: be aware that this is a one-way street. |
| 08:45.30 | karsten | abaft: Generally: blocklisting (or teergrubing) is pretty effective, especially for gross violators. Content/context filtering works well. Virus filtering ditto. Do as much as you can at SMTP time. And don't even *think* about C-R. |
| 08:45.39 | _rene_ | niggar: and you probably want dist-upgrade |
| 08:45.39 | niggar | NForcer: but how can I get newest packages? |
| 08:45.47 | *** join/#debian Invisible (~Invisible@82.114.64.161) |
| 08:45.49 | abaft | karsten: Just getting pretty damn agressive. I want some configurable greylisting/tarpitting/network throttling based on past history of spamminess and whether we send mail there or not. |
| 08:45.59 | abaft | Matt Dillon |
| 08:46.03 | Guerin | niggar: you want to dist-upgrade, instead. Otherwise things are more liable to break |
| 08:46.06 | _rene_ | NForcer: woody backports? |
| 08:46.09 | *** join/#debian myddd (~industri@203.130.207.179) |
| 08:46.11 | karsten | niggar: You can choose a (very) stable system, or one with bright shiny things that breaks more often. |
| 08:46.11 | abaft | 's use of host OS fingerprinting is awfully cool, too. |
| 08:46.17 | _rene_ | erm |
| 08:46.21 | myddd | oh man... |
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| 08:46.30 | _rene_ | s/NForcer/niggar/ |
| 08:46.35 | abaft | I'm surprised I can't find a standard framework for doing this sort of thing. |
| 08:46.36 | karsten | abaft: What I think we're going to see in future MTAs is a lot more intelligence about where mail comes from. |
| 08:46.39 | NForcer | _rene_: :) |
| 08:46.47 | myddd | u see that i 'm quit cause i should restart it... |
| 08:46.56 | *** join/#debian Error (~java@212.174.28.177) |
| 08:46.59 | abaft | Rather than make a strictly binary distinction, I'd like to score peers and throttle them based on how |
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| 08:47.07 | abaft | likely they are to be sending me legit e-mail. |
| 08:47.11 | *** join/#debian hannes_ (~hannes@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3909) |
| 08:47.12 | karsten | abaft: I suspect if you do traffic analysis you have a small number of sources which account for the bulk of your mail. A bunch which contribute a little traffic, and the rest are spam. |
| 08:47.18 | gallus | is it possible to customize gaim sounds? |
| 08:47.23 | NForcer | niggar: "Newest" packages are in unstable, but you don`t want that, upgrade to testing and use apt-pinning for the packages you need the newest version of. |
| 08:47.33 | *** part/#debian John5788 (~John5788@node-40241692.sna.onnet.us.uu.net) |
| 08:47.34 | Guerin | !htfswk gallus |
| 08:47.35 | dpkg | gallus: How The Fuck Should We Know? |
| 08:47.45 | karsten | abaft: There's a lot of appliance stuff that's starting to address this. IronMountain (?) or IronPort (aka Senderbase) does a lot of this. |
| 08:48.02 | abaft | Exactly. I want something that learns that and takes are of it for me. I might occasionally force something if an override is needed, but hopefully it can get it right... |
| 08:48.10 | gallus | Guerin: sorry |
| 08:48.16 | karsten | abaft: Aye. |
| 08:48.18 | niggar | NForcer: so the best is to use testing, yes? |
| 08:48.18 | abaft | For a small group, sender e-mail address is a useful filter. |
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| 08:48.41 | pme | abaft: I'd like to score the senders and then throttle the spammers. Not their networks, I mean the spammers themselves. Until their eyeballs pop out of their useless heads. |
| 08:48.49 | Guerin | abaft: no, it's not. It's forgable. |
| 08:48.58 | myddd | karsten: u've said i should check kernel... sig11 .. or what? |
| 08:49.04 | abaft | But I haven't seen a really good SMTP receiver that does all that. The world needs one, but I'm not sure if I can commit the time it would take to do it right. |
| 08:49.07 | *** join/#debian Guest90657 (~Begum__@dsl81-215-29456.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) |
| 08:49.08 | pme | niggar: best for some people, worst for other people. It's a choice. |
| 08:49.13 | Guerin | !tell myddd about sig11 |
| 08:49.14 | karsten | abaft: The current modification to my own spam system is going to be reclassifying the remote daemon responses. Auto, human, or error. |
| 08:49.15 | NForcer | niggar: It is a safe way at least. |
| 08:49.21 | *** join/#debian eTerNet (~uGuR@adsl-81-7-124-156.takas.lt) |
| 08:49.22 | karsten | !tell myddd about sig11 |
| 08:49.31 | karsten | myddd: What dpkg (the bot) is telling you. |
| 08:49.34 | niggar | NForcer: ok.tnx :) |
| 08:49.35 | abaft | karsten: didn't wuite follow. What remote daemon, and what responses? |
| 08:49.50 | gallus | Guerin: find my solution |
| 08:49.51 | karsten | abaft: I send about 200 LARTs a day. |
| 08:50.02 | karsten | abaft: ...and get a commensurate number of responses from various systems. |
| 08:50.08 | Guerin | gallus: I hope you're not taking the imperative with me. |
| 08:50.08 | abaft | karsten: Ah! The responses to your e-mail LARTs. |
| 08:50.14 | sirperc | I've just installed debian using new Debian-installer to isntall sarge. eveyrthings fine except that in X, I'm in 1280x1024 screen res and everything is huge, the menu bar doesn't fit from the bottom of screen to top, and fonts are all huge too |
| 08:50.21 | abaft | Are your scripts available somewhere? I see the output on your web page, but not the tools.... |
| 08:50.21 | *** join/#debian `Seda (~zeynoooo1@pop-ultel-1.37.azeronline.com) |
| 08:50.25 | karsten | abaft: They divide mostly into undeliverably/nondelivery notifications, and autoresponses. With a handful of humans. |
| 08:50.28 | karsten | abaft: Yeah. |
| 08:50.33 | abaft | Thanks for the ASN idea, BTW. |
| 08:50.37 | karsten | abaft: ...I go through that about once a week. |
| 08:50.44 | Guerin | karsten: right. And you make decisions about the host based on whether it's an auto, a real response, or an rfc-ignorant response? |
| 08:50.50 | abaft | In general, if a human responds, I'm willing to grant a good bit of slack. |
| 08:50.51 | karsten | abaft: ...the bounces go to RFC-Ignorant. |
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| 08:51.02 | *** mode/#debian [+l 641] by debhelper |
| 08:51.06 | abaft | Yup, I saw that on your page. |
| 08:51.09 | karsten | abaft: ASN came from Joe St. Sauver. University of Oregon. FWIW. |
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| 08:51.21 | gallus | Guerin: no i mean I've found the answer to my question |
| 08:51.21 | karsten | Guerin: mostly need to tune procmail filters. |
| 08:51.25 | abaft | Anyway, it's a damn good idea. |
| 08:51.33 | gallus | Guerin: no imperative |
| 08:51.38 | *** join/#debian myddd (~industri@203.130.207.179) |
| 08:51.41 | karsten | Guerin: The autoacks I can ignore. The bounces I report. The human responses I may respond to. |
| 08:51.42 | *** join/#debian qvas (guest@spool2-180.gatesgroup.hu) |
| 08:51.50 | gallus | Guerin: sorry. don't worry |
| 08:51.59 | *** join/#debian NTNP (~ntnp@f10v-15-113.d1.club-internet.fr) |
| 08:51.59 | sirperc | I've just installed debian using new Debian-installer to isntall sarge. eveyrthings fine except that in X, I'm in 1280x1024 screen res and everything is huge, the menu bar doesn't fit from the bottom of screen to top, and fonts are all huge too. Can anyone suggest anything I can't find a general size in the kde control center |
| 08:52.03 | abaft | I want the whole pile put into an adaptive learning engine, a la spamassassin, and used to modulate the responsiveness of the SMTP server. |
| 08:52.07 | Guerin | gallus: it's ok, I figured. |
| 08:52.08 | karsten | abaft: What I like about it is that ASN is sufficiently broad to give a meaningful metric *and* it's strictly accountable. |
| 08:52.12 | *** join/#debian kaka (~kaka@200.12.239.3) |
| 08:52.37 | karsten | sirperc: Run control center and start messing with font settings. RTFM. |
| 08:52.40 | *** join/#debian hannes__ (~hannes@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3909) |
| 08:52.54 | abaft | There are all *sorts* of things. If I'm even vaguely suspiscious, turn OFF the PIPELINEING feature. If any attempt is detected to send commands faster than they're processed (which can be a while if I'm tarpitting just a little...), BOOM! Into the blacklist you go... |
| 08:53.11 | *** join/#debian Lunatic (~java@81.213.104.23) |
| 08:53.21 | karsten | abaft: The other cool thing about ASN is you could add an auto-write rule in procmail, and spamassassin will automatically pick that up as a scoring element, w/ bayesian analysis. |
| 08:53.36 | karsten | abaft: Right WRT pipelining. |
| 08:53.53 | karsten | abaft: And you'll piss off all the qmail admins ;-) |
| 08:53.55 | *** join/#debian SabuGnU (~R@131.Red-213-98-160.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 08:53.58 | abaft | Yup, cool suggestion. I have to figure out how to get that data *into* the Received: line.... |
| 08:54.09 | myddd | mmm |
| 08:54.11 | sirperc | karsten, fonts are set to size 12, which should be reasonable, only thing which looks appropriate size is text on task bar, everything else looks around size 20 - 24 |
| 08:54.27 | abaft | Your web page leads me to believe that there's something similar to .in-addr.arpa that maps IP addresses to ASNs, but I haven't wuite found it yet.... |
| 08:54.50 | abaft | I keep missing and typing "wuite" for "quite |
| 08:54.52 | abaft | ", sigh... |
| 08:54.56 | karsten | sirperc: Check your DPI settings in /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 |
| 08:55.31 | karsten | abaft: AFAIK there's just the asn.routeviews.org nameserver, but the zonefiles can be retrieved for local use. |
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