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| 13:13.43 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://wiki.bzflag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.8 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19294 |
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| 15:06.50 | JeffM | who's still using VC10? |
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| 15:09.28 | allejo | bz |
| 15:09.38 | JeffM | seriously? |
| 15:10.00 | JeffM | you are in an incompatbile state right now right? |
| 15:10.25 | allejo | i'm not, i'm on macOS :p |
| 15:10.33 | JeffM | I mean the game |
| 15:10.39 | JeffM | you are done wiht 2.4.x right? |
| 15:10.51 | JeffM | on to proto break 2.6.0 |
| 15:11.15 | JeffM | what version is the mainline? |
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| 15:11.33 | allejo | nothing real has been committed to 2.6 other than some UI mocks, a gameplay changing fix, and one more thing iirc |
| 15:11.51 | JeffM | what is "the plan"(TM)? |
| 15:12.05 | JeffM | another compat release or soething else |
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| 15:14.30 | allejo | lets someone who actually knows to answer that one |
| 15:14.40 | JeffM | buck up man :) |
| 15:14.52 | JeffM | dress for the job you want, not the job you have |
| 15:15.22 | JeffM | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Batman-BenAffleck.jpg |
| 15:15.44 | allejo | https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f5/54/06/f55406c30d15267f8dff2bf45894958c.jpg |
| 15:15.49 | JeffM | even better |
| 15:16.02 | allejo | :p |
| 15:16.06 | JeffM | just so long as it isn't some attack on titan bs :) |
| 15:16.55 | allejo | i don't think a 2.4.10 is planned, and as for 2.6 there's no direction that i know of |
| 15:17.15 | JeffM | so the choice is "or death" |
| 15:17.32 | JeffM | 2010 is just a sad version of VC |
| 15:17.35 | JeffM | it's not even really free |
| 15:17.47 | JeffM | you wan to be on 2015 |
| 15:17.50 | allejo | there's the community editions now |
| 15:17.53 | allejo | which are nice |
| 15:17.53 | JeffM | yeah |
| 15:18.03 | JeffM | not that "express" stuff |
| 15:18.15 | JeffM | there is no 2010 community edition |
| 15:18.25 | JeffM | and 2015 has it support builtin |
| 15:18.37 | JeffM | GIT support |
| 15:19.33 | JeffM | I don't even think I can reliably install 2010 anymore |
| 15:21.00 | JeffM | I hope they announce a new mac mini today |
| 15:21.15 | JeffM | so I can pay the minimum apple tax |
| 15:21.30 | allejo | hehe |
| 15:21.48 | JeffM | I just need something to sign the iOS bins |
| 15:22.52 | blast007 | JeffM: no, the breaking change was made in 2.4 |
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| 15:23.20 | JeffM | If I was going to update you to 2015, what branch do you want it in? |
| 15:23.29 | JeffM | because 2010 is just SAD |
| 15:23.45 | blast007 | the dependencies don't build on 2015 without modifications |
| 15:23.54 | JeffM | then update your dependencies :) |
| 15:24.04 | JeffM | you have a deps lib right? |
| 15:24.10 | blast007 | doesn't build with the latest |
| 15:24.23 | blast007 | at least not through the command line stuff |
| 15:24.31 | JeffM | screw the command line stuff :) |
| 15:24.34 | blast007 | think it was curl that special cased it |
| 15:24.43 | blast007 | well, that's how I build the deps |
| 15:24.50 | JeffM | my condolences |
| 15:25.06 | JeffM | do you have a repo for the windows deps? |
| 15:25.25 | blast007 | https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag-dependencies |
| 15:25.41 | blast007 | the idea is to have unmodified sources |
| 15:26.23 | JeffM | if your dependency builders don't support your compiler then you are ether being held hostage by them, or you can't use current libs |
| 15:26.49 | JeffM | if that's your plan, then kill the VC project and crosscompile on linux |
| 15:27.00 | JeffM | since your entire build plan is basicly linux-like anyway |
| 15:27.23 | JeffM | or submit patches back to the lib people |
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| 15:27.33 | JeffM | and keep your own repo for windows in the meantime |
| 15:34.36 | blast007 | is there any built-in way to apply a patch file on Windows with some Visual Studio tool? |
| 15:35.00 | JeffM | prebuild step could call patch |
| 15:35.01 | blast007 | or would I have to include the source for some patch tool and build that first? :P |
| 15:35.08 | JeffM | just include the bin |
| 15:35.29 | the_map | like, the recycle bin? ;P |
| 15:35.41 | JeffM | it all depends on what changes are actualy needed |
| 15:35.50 | blast007 | minor build system changes |
| 15:36.15 | JeffM | could just keep your own copy of the projects around |
| 15:36.25 | blast007 | I'm trying to avoid that |
| 15:36.25 | JeffM | then sources are the same, |
| 15:36.45 | blast007 | the whole point was to make it *easy* to just drop in a new release of a library |
| 15:36.57 | JeffM | but you don't want to submit the fixed projects back to the library owner? |
| 15:38.39 | JeffM | sad thing is that you could replace everything but PDCurses and SDL2 with .net stuff if you went mixed mode. |
| 15:38.59 | JeffM | but the core of bzflag calls all the other libs directly, you'd have to wrap them |
| 15:40.29 | JeffM | oh god.... curl is still using nmake |
| 15:40.33 | JeffM | that's your problem |
| 15:40.46 | blast007 | I'm using nmake for most of the things |
| 15:41.12 | JeffM | yeah, that got discontinued |
| 15:41.15 | blast007 | and c-ares hard codes some make versions in their Makefile: https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag-dependencies/blob/master/src/c-ares/Makefile.msvc |
| 15:41.23 | JeffM | it's all msbuild now |
| 15:41.35 | blast007 | and I can't use newer c-ares because there's some odd bug with anything newer |
| 15:41.42 | JeffM | yeah, those libs are going to be stuck in the dark ages forever |
| 15:41.58 | JeffM | I'd recomend wraping the bzflag useage of htem so platforms can call native code |
| 15:42.23 | JeffM | ares is just used for DNS lookups right? |
| 15:42.28 | blast007 | yes |
| 15:42.57 | JeffM | how does ares tell bzflag it's completed a lookup? callback or poll? |
| 15:43.26 | blast007 | I have no idea |
| 15:44.04 | blast007 | and this was the issue I was having: https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/issues/27 |
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| 15:44.57 | JeffM | if you are polling that could add a delay |
| 15:45.32 | blast007 | it only occured when there was a secondary network device that had never been used before |
| 15:46.11 | blast007 | as soon as you connected the other network interface once, it was fine |
| 15:47.03 | blast007 | I should actually git bisect that issue to figure out where it was introduced |
| 15:58.49 | JeffM | SDL doesn't have these kinds of services already? |
| 16:06.26 | blast007 | I don't think SDL touches any kind of networking |
| 16:06.38 | JeffM | SDL_Net does |
| 16:07.14 | JeffM | but it doesn't have something like curl |
| 16:09.16 | JeffM | no wonder cross platform gaming development is hard unless you pick a unifying engine |
| 16:10.10 | blast007 | Someone just needs to make a set of libraries that covers everyone's use cases. https://xkcd.com/927/ |
| 16:10.14 | JeffM | you don't want dependency hell, but all you have is these small libs that are all unique little snowflakes with wildly varrying levels of OS support. |
| 16:10.23 | JeffM | heh |
| 16:10.34 | JeffM | they did, it's called Unity, Unreal, Torque, etc... |
| 16:10.49 | JeffM | it's nice having all that stuff taken care of |
| 16:11.06 | blast007 | yeah, that way when it breaks you have no idea why |
| 16:11.31 | blast007 | though at least Unreal has a source release now, I think, right? |
| 16:11.32 | JeffM | at least you have one person to complain to, not a thousand library devs |
| 16:11.43 | JeffM | yeah you can get sources |
| 16:11.55 | JeffM | but even like uhro one, or goddot, they have sources |
| 16:12.57 | JeffM | right now you have to fiddle with indivi9dual libs to get stuff to build, I don't know if that's better then the risks asspociated with a single engine. to me they seem to be a wash. you are going to have problems ether way somtiems. |
| 16:13.32 | JeffM | a C++ standard lib that does basic networking like they did for threads would be nice |
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| 17:18.19 | macsforme | BulletCatcher has pointed out several times that c-ares could probably be replaced with a few calls in a thread |
| 17:23.06 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:23.22 | JeffM | and threds should be easier in C++11 |
| 17:25.47 | macsforme | as far as the build system, I would like to look at implementing something like premake or cmake... if we need to upgrade the windows build system, this may be a good time to do it |
| 17:26.40 | JeffM | 2010 is 3 compiler revisions old, soon to be 4 with VC15 |
| 17:27.46 | macsforme | premake appears like it will support for up to VC15... https://github.com/premake/premake-core/wiki/Using-Premake |
| 17:28.50 | JeffM | VS2015 != VC15 |
| 17:28.50 | JeffM | 2015 is VC14 |
| 17:28.56 | JeffM | they are dropping the years with the next one |
| 17:29.10 | JeffM | so what would have been VS2017 is just Visual Studio v15 |
| 17:29.21 | macsforme | ah, okay |
| 17:29.22 | JeffM | but still that does have current release versions |
| 17:29.27 | JeffM | so yeah it'd be fine |
| 17:29.41 | JeffM | VC15 is supposed to be bitchen :) |
| 17:31.10 | macsforme | as far as "the plan"... |
| 17:31.49 | macsforme | there have been a few issues reported with the current 2.4 version, that might merit a 2.4.10 if we can fix them |
| 17:32.59 | JeffM | won't that always be the case? |
| 17:33.10 | macsforme | furthermore, I personally think that work that can go into 2.4 should go there rather than master (for as long as possible), so people can actually use them in the meantime |
| 17:34.31 | macsforme | possibly, but there were some specific things... like a graphical issue on windows (I think), and some odd slowdowns/choppiness |
| 17:39.01 | macsforme | my personal idea for an overall roadmap is: a new build system (premake, if we can make it work), an artwork refresh (new textures [maybe associated normal maps at the same time, for later], logo, etc.), new sound effects, a new menu system and HUD, a revamp of the controls/bindings system (with more natural defaults), and a few new graphical effects (a better windshield crack with distortion, motion blur, and maybe a few other things) |
| 17:39.34 | macsforme | all of that could theoretically be done while maintaining protocol compatibility with 2.4 |
| 17:42.22 | JeffM | and you are going to have to write in support for the touch bar |
| 17:48.03 | blast007 | iirc, curl itself has a fallback to just using threads to call gethostbyname (or similar) when it doesn't have c-ares |
| 18:11.37 | macsforme | not sure we're getting any new desktops today, JeffM :-( |
| 18:12.25 | JeffM | doesn't look like it |
| 18:12.29 | macsforme | although really all we need is spec bumps, which are often quiet updates... and they did update the 13" MBP, which usually shares innards with the Mac Mini |
| 18:12.54 | macsforme | so maybe soon |
| 18:12.54 | JeffM | yeah at the minium the mini just needs a bump |
| 18:13.02 | JeffM | what'd be nice would be a real video card |
| 18:13.41 | JeffM | it would be sad for them not to update any of the imac or desktop lines |
| 18:13.49 | macsforme | yeah |
| 18:13.54 | JeffM | then MS would make a sexier imac then apple does :) |
| 18:17.11 | JeffM | I figured with the "hello again" tagline, they'd be announcing another all in one, since the origonal "hello" was for the origonal mac 128, an all in one |
| 18:21.46 | JeffM | that is not a cheap laptop...... |
| 18:25.19 | macsforme | you were expecting something else? |
| 18:25.52 | JeffM | they no longer have a sub 1000$ laptop |
| 18:25.55 | JeffM | they killed the low end |
| 18:26.10 | JeffM | it's on par for them sure |
| 18:26.29 | JeffM | but I'd rather get a surface book i7 for a similar price |
| 18:26.45 | JeffM | get a full touch screen with it and a longer expected battery |
| 18:27.18 | blast007 | do they still have USB ports? |
| 18:27.43 | macsforme | all USB-C |
| 18:28.05 | blast007 | want to plug in a flash drive? that's an adapter for that! |
| 18:29.30 | JeffM | macsforme: no, all thunderbolt 3 |
| 18:29.35 | macsforme | flash drives are so 2010... now we have the cloud |
| 18:29.38 | JeffM | USBC and some more |
| 18:29.59 | macsforme | yes |
| 18:30.03 | JeffM | it was nice that all the ports can be used for power |
| 18:30.11 | JeffM | but that machie is going be dongle hell for a few years |
| 18:53.18 | blast007 | so, our TextUtils url_encode and url_decode are garbage. At least url_encode chokes on any extended characters, and I don't predict that decode is gonna be much better. |
| 18:55.02 | blast007 | cURL has it's own curl_easy_escape/curl_easy_unescape, but it requires an initalized CURL* object to use, so I don't know if that means it shouldn't be used separately from a request. |
| 18:55.20 | blast007 | https://curl.haxx.se/libcurl/c/curl_easy_escape.html / https://curl.haxx.se/libcurl/c/curl_easy_unescape.html |
| 19:00.06 | blast007 | issue with our url_encode, for instance, is that passing a à (ASCII code 223) through it generates a %FFFFFFC3%FFFFFF9F instead of %C3%9F, which also triggers a buffer overrun (I think?) of hex[5] |
| 19:15.15 | allejo | do initialized cURL objects require a request? |
| 19:57.07 | JeffM | one would think that they'd make those utility funcitons static or free |
| 20:10.22 | JeffM | probalby gets some context info from the curl handle |
| 20:11.06 | JeffM | if I recall, the curl job doesn't go until you tell it to, you can set it up beforehand and then set things like arguments, or call utilities before saying "do your thing" |
| 20:14.53 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | you guys might be missing the point with the Surface Studio |
| 20:15.32 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | in a nutshell (beyond the obvious) have cheap workstation controls like dials and sliders and pens and so on that interact with the OS in a context-sensitive way |
| 20:15.37 | JeffM | digital air hockey? |
| 20:16.03 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | so if youâre doing PS, maybe the puck does color spectrum, but if youâre doing cartography, it zooms |
| 20:16.12 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | et cetera |
| 20:16.14 | JeffM | oh the inclusion of the pressure senitive surface is what it's all about |
| 20:16.20 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | to be sure |
| 20:16.27 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | but thatâs just icing on the cake is my point |
| 20:16.43 | JeffM | a 27 inch wacom screen is 2800$ already, this comes wiht a computer |
| 20:16.54 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | so you get more iMac than iMac, plus a tablet |
| 20:16.55 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | right |
| 20:17.08 | JeffM | yeah it's a sexier imac then apple can make |
| 20:17.14 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | PLUS the coming wave of DAW controls |
| 20:17.34 | JeffM | my guess is apple will kill the desktop line and force everyone to be mobile |
| 20:17.39 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | (well, not necessarily DAW, but âanalogâ in a tactile way) |
| 20:17.49 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | my guess is youâre probably right |
| 20:17.58 | JeffM | what boggles my mind is all the effort they put into touchscreen GUI on iOS and then go and totaly ignore touchscreen laptops |
| 20:18.09 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | 70% of Appleâs revenue is phones, so it stands to reason the iMac will go the way of the Xserve or XSAN |
| 20:18.42 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | 2 years ago, the PowerMACâs coolest demo was starting everything in /Applications at once |
| 20:18.49 | JeffM | and then the pro video editors who need 5 displays and a ton of local storage will go buy another machine. |
| 20:18.54 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | you can do that now with any Xeon workstation with an M.2 drive |
| 20:19.02 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | soâ¦theyâve stopped innovating |
| 20:19.11 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | yeah |
| 20:19.25 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | how cool would it be if you could daisychain peripherals with no loss of performanceâ¦oh wait |
| 20:19.35 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | you CANâ¦but Appleâs having none of that |
| 20:19.47 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | letâs home M$ picks up the baton |
| 20:19.51 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | *hope |
| 20:19.57 | JeffM | I think they are taloring to the blog crowd now |
| 20:20.03 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | who, Apple? |
| 20:20.06 | JeffM | yeah |
| 20:20.10 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | could be. |
| 20:20.18 | JeffM | instead of the artists they used to target |
| 20:20.26 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | agreed for sure there |
| 20:20.35 | JeffM | comparing the two product releases, MS defenatly "won" |
| 20:20.46 | JeffM | they showed a lot more |
| 20:21.02 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | and put more thought into what they showed |
| 20:21.07 | JeffM | I just wanted a newer mac mini |
| 20:21.11 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | instead of âooh, look, we removed something again" |
| 20:21.14 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | âCourage." |
| 20:21.19 | JeffM | it seems lame to pay 500$ for a computer from 2012 |
| 20:21.25 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | you may be wanting the way I want a 1TB iPod Classic |
| 20:21.47 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | with a Wofsburg DAC |
| 20:21.50 | JeffM | just means I won't target iOS untill I have to |
| 20:21.57 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | I hear that a lot |
| 20:22.21 | JeffM | I can cross compile for every other platform |
| 20:22.46 | JeffM | hell I can cross compile for OSX, just not iOS |
| 20:42.03 | allejo | curl_easy_(un)escape would be nice as a static function |
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| 21:21.09 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | not to beat a dead horse, but 2.4.6 has been rock solid for me all day |
| 21:21.22 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | no dropped flags, no Not Respndings, no kicks |
| 21:21.49 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | oh and no Kernel erros in the console about GPU or CPU load |
| 21:51.21 | JeffM | that's a good name for your 2.4.10-x line "Dead Horse" |
| 21:53.15 | blast007 | "Dead Horse" "Deader Horse" "Starting to stink" "Skeletal Remains" "Fossil" |
| 22:04.34 | allejo | "Bring out your dead" |
| 22:16.51 | Zehra | "final releases" |
| 22:17.04 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | redefines âcommitâ |
| 22:37.40 | macsforme | I can't see Apple giving up such a significant share of the education market by discontinuing their desktop models entirely |
| 22:38.47 | macsforme | and I think educators are wising up to the fact that an iPad is not a laptop/desktop substitute |
| 22:40.12 | macsforme | in our school district most of our schools have one or more labs/media centers lined with iMacs or mac minis |
| 22:52.20 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | if you have ever seen the Surface Hub you will rethink your desktop statement. |
| 22:54.17 | blast007 | you don't use a Surface Hub to replace a computer lab |
| 22:54.33 | blast007 | you use it to replace a projector in a conference room |
| 22:54.57 | blast007 | it's overpriced to be a replacement for education targeted interactive whiteboards |
| 22:55.36 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | i disagree about the whiteboards |
| 22:55.53 | blast007 | for less than $5k we can get a 65" 4k interactive whiteboards |
| 22:56.04 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | and I donât think it can replace the lab, but I donât think itâs NECESSARY to have a âdesktopâ on every desktop |
| 22:56.05 | blast007 | Surface Hub is $9k for a 55" 1080p |
| 22:56.27 | blast007 | (or at least was at launch) |
| 22:57.16 | blast007 | actually it's showing up as $12450 on CDW.. |
| 22:57.44 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | CDW? |
| 22:58.06 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | ok, whatever, your point is taken |
| 22:58.50 | blast007 | for about $2500 I can go with a traditional SMART Board with an Epson short-throw projector |
| 22:59.01 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | well, once again my practical experience is no match for the Armchair of Truth |
| 22:59.43 | The_Hand_of_Mi-2 | wonât be the last time |
| 23:00.16 | blast007 | well.. I do work at a school |
| 23:25.11 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Flak 18 * 9074 /LU: created redirect page |
| 23:25.13 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Flak 18 * 9075 /Leagues_United: /* Official league servers */ added a list of public maps |
| 23:25.15 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Flak 18 * 9076 /All_Hands_On_Deck: created redirect |
| 23:25.17 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Flak 18 * 9077 /Ducati: improved wording |
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| 23:38.37 | allejo | /timelimit isn't used to start the match timer... |
| 23:42.55 | allejo | nor is it used to modify the countdown... |
| 23:43.04 | allejo | well, kinda is |
| 23:49.16 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v alpha1-2] by blast007 |
