IRC log for #bzflag on 20161010

00:12.05*** join/#bzflag alpha1-3 (~alpha1@host213.200-117-155.telecom.net.ar)
00:25.23macsforme"Sixteen"
00:26.00macsformeor something about powers of 2
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01:56.37the_map"Untitled 1 (copy)"
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03:12.34BZnotify[13bzflag] 15blast007 pushed 1 new commit to 062.4: 02https://git.io/vPBA6
03:12.34BZnotify13bzflag/062.4 14b5aeab9 15Scott Wichser: Update the ChangeLog
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04:07.22BZnotify[13bzflag] 15allejo opened pull request #57: Bump title banner for 2.4.8 (062.4...06248-banner) 02https://git.io/vPBpW
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04:19.52macsforme~allejo++
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17:10.01KaadmYoh wow
17:10.30KaadmYfrom looking at TimeKeeper, i'm loosing faith in supporting windows
17:12.50JeffMdon't fear the QPC!
17:13.02JeffMSDL should have a time wraper
17:13.04blast007except when it makes 30 seconds be 20 seconds
17:13.22KaadmYi can't use sdl for everything
17:13.33KaadmYthe server doesn't have a frontend
17:13.45blast007so?
17:13.49KaadmYJeffM: sdl has SDL_GetTicks and some misc time stuff
17:14.01KaadmYalso i'm using glfw3
17:15.24blast007then you use the various time/timer functions that GLFW provides that do the same thing as SDL
17:15.47KaadmYcould try
17:15.55KaadmYi can't do timing on the server with that though
17:17.07blast007in any case, don't use BZFlag's TimeKeeper on Windows
17:17.14KaadmYi'm not
17:17.17blast007it will break horribly if it's not running on a fast loop
17:17.22KaadmYi'll just use gettimeofday
17:17.30JeffMyeah, it's not a good QPC implementation
17:17.33KaadmYbut i have no idea what'll break on other platforms
17:18.20JeffMuse the mono one ;)
17:18.22KaadmYbtw i'm working on a tank game inspired by bzflag
17:18.34KaadmYnot really a remake, doesn't have a lot of game mechanics in bzflag
17:18.35JeffMfun
17:18.35KaadmYhttps://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231478510965882880/234124815227813892/2016-10-07-182804_1440x900_scrot.png
17:18.38blast007will it have 3D grass?
17:18.41KaadmYlikely
17:18.46JeffMusing shaders?
17:18.58KaadmYJeffM: dunno, probbly but for now i won't use shaders
17:19.01KaadmYprobably
17:19.09JeffMso GL < 3?
17:19.13KaadmYyeah
17:19.16KaadmYi'm targeting 2.1
17:19.18blast007ew
17:19.20JeffMwhy?
17:19.30KaadmYbecause that's the highest my laptop supports
17:19.36JeffMget a new laptop
17:19.41KaadmYJeffM: yes i know
17:19.44KaadmY*sigh*
17:20.04KaadmYmy game still is currently very buggy
17:20.06JeffMhave you worked on networking yet?
17:20.25KaadmYusing enet for networking, i already have a setup to handle packets/data
17:20.33JeffMwhat about simulation?
17:20.39KaadmYsimulation?
17:20.58JeffMsimulating all the tanks over the network
17:21.09KaadmYdead reckoning probably
17:21.12KaadmYsame as bzflag
17:21.15JeffMso same problems
17:21.17KaadmYmight change later though
17:21.25blast007"gettimeofday: changes when system time changed;"
17:21.32KaadmYblast007: yep
17:21.43KaadmYjust don't play when your timezone is changing
17:21.45blast007wonder if that counts DST changes
17:21.45KaadmYeasy
17:21.49JeffMdoes enet have a synced clock function?
17:21.59KaadmYJeffM: don't think so, i can check
17:22.01JeffMmany libs have synced closks
17:22.40JeffMwhat license is your code under?
17:22.59KaadmYJeffM: gpl v3
17:23.06JeffMeww
17:23.12KaadmYwhat
17:23.12JeffMgood luck with it
17:23.14blast007not seeing a mention of clock, timer, or time in enet
17:23.25KaadmYblast007: enet does use timing stuff
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17:23.43blast007doesn't show up in a search on their site
17:23.55KaadmYdoesn't seem to have an accesible api though
17:24.06JeffMthat's unfortonate
17:24.09KaadmYblast007: you can have timed packet gets
17:24.10JeffMhave you looked at raknet?
17:24.17JeffMit's higher level
17:24.17KaadmYno, never heard of it
17:24.23JeffMit went open source
17:24.24blast007the problem with raknet is finding a working fork
17:24.25KaadmYdarn
17:24.27KaadmYc++
17:24.36JeffMwhat are you using?
17:24.39blast007there were issues with the one they released that have gone unfixed
17:24.44KaadmYJeffM: C
17:24.47JeffMwhy?
17:24.51KaadmYfaster
17:24.52blast007C, or C++?
17:24.56KaadmYand i know it better than C++
17:24.57JeffMno it's not
17:25.05JeffMit's going to use the same compiler as C++
17:25.12JeffMwith different restrictions
17:25.22JeffMthis isn't 1984 anymore
17:25.33KaadmYhttps://github.com/kaadmy/c_cpp_benchmark
17:25.35JeffMso you build your own linked list implemntation?
17:26.00KaadmYJeffM: i can, but i don't need it yet
17:26.02JeffMmost of your time will be spent waiting for GL
17:26.23KaadmYcurrently i'm also using GL display lists(yuck)
17:26.32KaadmYi'll switch to vertex arrays asap
17:26.47JeffMI don't mean for graphics, I mean for stuff like dynamic arrays
17:26.56KaadmYyeah i know
17:26.58JeffMor you calling malloc and free a lot
17:27.10KaadmYmalloc and free, but not very often
17:27.18KaadmYbasically when a play joins or disconnects
17:27.20JeffMis your goal to learn to program better?
17:27.20KaadmYplayer*
17:27.26KaadmYJeffM: kinda
17:27.32KaadmYi can program pretty good
17:27.33JeffMthen that makes sense
17:27.41KaadmYthe screenshot i shows is about 2 days of work
17:27.50KaadmYi can load models
17:27.51JeffMyeah hello mesh isn't too hard
17:28.01KaadmYand i have a material and texture loading system
17:28.03JeffMwhat format?
17:28.08KaadmYcustom format
17:28.18JeffMso some kind of conversion tool?
17:28.19KaadmYpretty much raw vertex, normal and uv data
17:28.24KaadmYblender exporter
17:28.25JeffMyou really don't like wheels do you?
17:28.33KaadmYeasier that using an existing format
17:28.41JeffMOBJ is a butt simple format
17:28.52KaadmYand it's a lot less compact
17:29.11JeffMnot if you compress it :)
17:29.17JeffMgzip stream FTW
17:29.38blast007just put it all in a .wad file!
17:29.41JeffMso pretty much everything you have is custom.. you really are totaly inspired by bzflag ;)
17:30.06JeffMI was going to offer to see if it built on windowes, but you said GPL3
17:30.06KaadmYit is inspired
17:30.17KaadmYis there something wrong with gpl3?
17:30.23JeffMit's viral
17:30.27KaadmYxonotic is gpl3, it's crossplatform
17:30.41JeffMsure, the license has nothing to do with platforms
17:30.45JeffMit's my personal prefernce
17:30.56JeffMyou've chosen the most restrictive open source licnese possible
17:31.08KaadmYokay, what else is there then?
17:31.13KaadmYi could try lgpl
17:31.15JeffMI prefer MIT
17:31.23JeffMor MPL if that isn't good enough
17:31.38JeffMLGPL does not change enough
17:31.39KaadmYi also prefer MIT
17:31.44JeffMthen why didn't you use MIT?
17:31.51KaadmYbut i might use code from quake and related games
17:32.05JeffMthat's fine, they can still use there own licenses
17:32.20JeffMMIT infers no useage restrictions at all
17:32.23KaadmYit's still a lot simpler to have everything under one license
17:32.28KaadmYJeffM: exactly
17:32.36KaadmYi can't put GPL code under MIT
17:32.42JeffMyou don't have to
17:32.46JeffMthe GPL code stays GPL
17:32.49blast007the GPL code remains GPL
17:33.03KaadmYthen i'll have to have multiple licenses
17:33.09JeffMso?
17:33.15KaadmYit gets too messy
17:33.29JeffMwell good luck
17:33.53JeffMalpha1-2 will love you
17:34.26JeffMI clearly don't understand open source, because I use windows, it limits my brain thing's ability to thinkify
17:34.46KaadmYwonders why everyone that develops bzflag hates GPL
17:35.05JeffMit's viral
17:35.14JeffMall changes to it MUST be GPL too
17:35.21JeffMeven dynamic links if you use pure GPL
17:35.22KaadmYexactly
17:35.24JeffMLGPM would be better
17:35.27KaadmYor you end up with assaultcube
17:35.28JeffMLGPL
17:35.40KaadmYwhich has dozens of license for the art
17:35.51JeffMohh yeah, you are going to find that for everything
17:35.55JeffMGPL doesn't work for art
17:36.00JeffMwhat is the "source" ?
17:36.10JeffMCC BY SA works for art
17:36.14KaadmYthe original data files, for example
17:36.22KaadmYie. .psd files
17:36.27KaadmYor .blend
17:36.35JeffMor my sketchpad?
17:38.02blast007JeffM: you'd have to also have used open-source pens and paper
17:38.45allejolol
17:39.42KaadmYhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Floss-license-slide-image.png
17:40.02KaadmYso if i license lgpl, someone could still relicense as gpl anyway
17:44.11JeffMI don't like that GPL forces my code into your license even if it's not derived, just because it's packaged with it.
17:45.11JeffMblast007: I'd have to take a picture of the lighting used when I scanned too
17:45.45blast007KaadmY: I think that means it can be *used* with GPL code
17:46.23blast007but maybe I'm wrong -- licensing confuses the heck out of me :P
17:46.39JeffMblast007: it's because you use windows some times
17:46.47blast007most times
17:46.51JeffMit warps your brain
17:46.52KaadmYhttp://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/66256
17:46.53blast007so yeah, my brain is decaying
17:48.18blast007soon, everything I make will use the Microsoft Limited Public License
17:49.10KaadmYis this going to turn into a vi-vs-emacs style argument?
17:49.20JeffMit already is ;)
17:49.30KaadmYokay
17:49.37KaadmYwalks away quietly
17:49.53JeffMIf you were lGPL I'd have offered to check windows, but pure GPL v3 is too draconian
17:51.10KaadmYand i seriously doubt it'll run on windows in its current state
17:51.21JeffMprobably
17:51.30KaadmYat least want to make it decently stable before releasing it
17:51.55JeffMwhat does it run on now?
17:52.14blast007PC-DOS 7.1
17:52.22KaadmYdebian-based linux
17:52.23JeffMIRIX
17:52.30JeffMhe's very much copying bzflag
17:52.33blast007heh
17:52.44JeffMand you don't want to know what would have to change for it to run on windows before you release it?
17:52.58KaadmYimo if nobody plays it or nobody else can run it, it's still worth it to make it
17:53.11KaadmYrelease doesn't have to be a full public release exactly
17:53.12JeffMyeah it sounds like it's just a personal project
17:53.24KaadmYit's mostly for practicing writing code
17:53.46KaadmYi'll probably put it online when it's stable-ish
17:53.56KaadmYbut i don't think i'll completely finish it
17:54.38JeffMyou should name it wainwright
17:56.21the_mapwait, vi vs emacs? is that still an argument? I think we all know which one is better
17:56.22the_map;P
17:56.40JeffMspaces vs tabs
17:57.06the_mapJeffM: as long as it's consistent ...
17:57.21blast007the dpkg bot in #debian has a "start an editor war" factoid ;)
17:57.58the_mapthe real question is what editor that particular code is in
17:58.15the_map*was written in
17:58.28KaadmYit was written in butterfly
17:58.45the_mapof course, emacs can do that too
17:58.48the_mapM-x butterfly
17:58.52the_map;)
17:59.16blast007people used to get upset when I ran little banner images in my forum signature that were dynamicslly generated based on what browser/OS they were viewing from insulting whatever browser/OS it detected ;)
17:59.56the_mapok that's awesome, I need to do that
18:00.17KaadmYheh
18:00.56JeffMthe important question is.. does it have ASCII art in the readme?
18:01.05KaadmYno readme
18:01.08KaadmYin dev, remember?
18:01.21KaadmYi've been working on it for literally 4 days
18:01.24JeffMyou don't start with a readme to keep your ideas in line?
18:01.28KaadmYnah
18:01.34KaadmYbeen thinking about this specific game for months
18:02.02the_mapJeffM: nah, he uses a separate line for ideas, just like his braces
18:02.21JeffM{ goes on the next line daminit!
18:02.24JeffMthen they line up
18:02.38the_mapok, now it's time for a war...
18:02.53KaadmYJeffM, the_map start barfing https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/GZnDcp6f/code.png
18:02.56JeffMfriggin lumpy code
18:03.20JeffMugg lumpy C code too
18:03.27KaadmY:)
18:03.50KaadmYat least the code style is uniform
18:03.57JeffMhow many models  do you allow?
18:04.02the_mapKaadmY: why? because of the editor color scheme, or because it's C ?
18:04.12KaadmYthe_map: the syntax :)
18:04.35the_mapI *like* same line opening braces
18:04.40the_mapthe other way drives me nuts
18:04.42JeffMheh MAX_MODELS
18:04.43KaadmYJeffM: currently i allow 64 meshes and 1024 models
18:05.09JeffMstd::vector<Mesh> ;)
18:05.09KaadmYbut i have a lovely #define so i can change it whenever
18:05.23JeffMsure so you HAVE to change it when you run out
18:05.29KaadmY:)
18:05.30JeffMafter you forget and wonder why your stuff crashes
18:05.47KaadmYi have checks to just display a warning when it can't add something
18:05.58JeffMslowing your code down
18:06.00KaadmYeven the FRIGGING SOURCE ENGINE has 4096 max entities
18:06.11JeffMbecause it's based on quake
18:06.20JeffMquake isn't a good engine from a programing standpoint
18:06.27JeffMit' was build to make quake
18:06.31KaadmYJeffM: based on quake in the same way i'm inspired by bzflag :)
18:06.44JeffMso 1994's best
18:06.47KaadmYa lot of quake's ideas are pretty solid though
18:06.55JeffMsure they are robust
18:07.01JeffMa lot of them are brute force
18:07.13JeffMthey are valid, but not always the best for extnisiblity
18:07.40KaadmYimo quake1's biggest flaw was not having 100% control in the qc source
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18:07.58KaadmYtoo much is still hardcoded to make the original quakec sources work
18:07.59KaadmYw
18:07.59JeffMno it's biggest flaw was not being a portal engine
18:08.17JeffMoutsides have to be faked
18:08.20JeffMthey added more for that later
18:08.34KaadmYyeah
18:08.36JeffMUnreal did a better job at larger areas at the same time quake was valid
18:08.59JeffMquake1's main job was to miniumze overdraw because 3d accellerators were slow
18:09.04JeffMthey did no T&L
18:09.15JeffMso it was focused on lightmaps and BSP trees
18:09.28KaadmYactually i have no idea how unreal does lighting
18:09.32JeffMbaking
18:09.37JeffMthere is a second set of UVs
18:09.41KaadmYah
18:09.49JeffMand a second set of low res textures
18:09.52KaadmYlightmap backing is magic
18:09.57KaadmYif you get involved in it, run
18:10.00JeffMit's just brute force raycasting
18:10.01KaadmYbaking*
18:10.14JeffMdraw a line from every lightmap texel to every light, see if it hits the world geo
18:10.22KaadmYyep
18:10.24JeffMif it does the texel is black
18:10.30JeffMthat's why it takes forever
18:10.39KaadmYbut it's faster than real time
18:10.50JeffMno it's not, it's a preprocess
18:10.55KaadmYi know
18:11.15JeffMit's faster then realtime shadows at render time
18:11.19JeffMwell it was
18:11.22JeffMshaders have changed that
18:11.31KaadmYtesseract looks great
18:11.37KaadmYbut again, works only in small areas
18:12.00JeffMI'm a big fan of portal systems
18:12.11JeffMlets you do a lot of culling very quickly
18:12.20KaadmYportals make more sense for culling imo
18:12.22JeffMspecialy in a game like bzflag's "walled" areas
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22:44.40blast007so, what do we want to call 2.4.8?
22:46.26BulletCatcherSixteen
22:48.39blast007k, two votes for that, I'll make it a third vote ;)
22:49.30BulletCatcherThat's going to be an insurmountable lead unless the Russians hack our voting process.
22:50.30BulletCatcherSpeaking of which, is there still time to include the Russian transliteration from issue #51?
22:50.31blast007lol
22:50.54blast007I'll add it and make sure it doesn't hack my email
22:51.51BulletCatcherI think we just need to add the .po file, modify Makefile.am, and update AUTHORS.
22:52.53BulletCatcherOh, and update the Windows and Xcode systems to include the new file.

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