IRC log for #bzflag on 20160806

00:47.47*** join/#bzflag zuii (~cauchy@BC06BF93.catv.pool.telekom.hu)
01:16.23KaadmYaccording to a guy on urban jungle, telling people where st is is cheating
01:16.28KaadmYbecause that's the seer flag's jobn
01:16.31KaadmYjob*
01:16.38KaadmYand seer is also cheating because it's made for team games
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05:16.13the_mapso...holding the SE flag on UJ is cheating? I don't think so
05:24.19the_mapfrom a player, wrt 2.4.6 from 2.0.4: "gj. Thanks for the update. I hadn't seen an update in a loooong time."
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06:31.10allejo_pardon the dust. i'm doing some much needed updates to my server
06:31.55the_maplol
07:06.02allejomkay, all my bz servers should be restored
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16:25.08JeffMok... that's odd. I just ran the bzfs linux build inside cmd.exe on my windows 10 machine. it worked prefectly
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17:33.58blast007JeffM: probably worked better than the Windows .exe version :)
17:34.46JeffMIt would still have to use Windows networking
17:36.52blast007wouldn't be using our timing code for Windows though
17:37.03blast007so 30 seconds would be 30 seconds, not 20
17:41.36JeffMSure, but it's not a full kernel, I'm sure it maps to the rpc
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18:29.58the_mapI'm just amazed that something worked perfectly on windows
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18:44.54JeffMthe_map:most things I use do
18:45.05JeffMCan't say that about Linux usually
18:46.54the_mapopposite for me
18:47.43KaadmYthe_map: same
18:47.46KaadmYlinux <3
18:48.00JeffMWe probably know more about what we are doing on each respective OS :)
18:48.44JeffMThe last real "Windows" problem was more of a "how corporate IT has the domain configured" thing
18:48.47KaadmYand is this going to turn into another OS flamewar?
18:48.49the_mapno...opposite for me in both statements :P
18:48.51JeffMBut it was relatively easy to resolve
18:49.09JeffMI think it all depends on what you are doing and what you are familiar with
18:49.13KaadmYyep
18:49.24KaadmYimho linux is really easy
18:49.33KaadmYand i use a terminal and text stuff whenever possible
18:49.35KaadmYi have guis
18:49.40KaadmYhate*
18:49.40the_mapI used windows for a couple years...couldn't get anything to work right, including simple things like deleting empty folders I made myself
18:49.53JeffMWow, never had that problem
18:50.07JeffMUnless the drive was borked
18:50.13the_mapnope, good drive
18:50.16JeffMOdd
18:50.27JeffMOr unless it was vista
18:50.31JeffMVista blows
18:50.32the_mapI crashed windows explorer five times trying to delete that empty folder
18:50.34the_mapwindows 7
18:50.43JeffM7 was pretty stable for me
18:50.48JeffMSlow, but stable
18:50.57JeffM10's been working out quite well
18:51.41the_mapwell, I'm glad it works for you :P
18:51.46JeffMBut I'll play more with the Linux subsystem, see what it can do
18:52.02JeffMBet I can install GCC and GDB
18:52.37JeffMBeing able to test with out swapping to the Linux system would be nice
18:53.28JeffMSpecially knowing what does or does not run under mono
18:55.40the_mapmono?
18:56.24JeffMThe open source version of the .net runtime
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18:57.16*** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://wiki.bzflag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.6 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19241
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18:57.22JeffMNo, wine is an emulator
18:57.30JeffMMono is a native Linux runtime
18:57.49JeffM.net is like Java, it compiles to a byte code and is run by a language VM
18:57.57JeffMSo there is a runtime on each OS
18:58.18JeffMThe MS .net runtime is Windows only, but mono is the open source runtime for any OS
18:58.49JeffMIt uses a boatload of the components that were open sourced
19:01.03blast007"Wine Is Not an Emulator"
19:01.29JeffMExcept that it kinda is, it does exe code translation
19:01.38DTRemenakno, it doesn't
19:01.46DTRemenakit's an implementation of the win32 api on unix systems
19:01.56JeffMHow does it do the startup code then?
19:02.02DTRemenakexe's are run natively, x86 on x86
19:02.17JeffMBut I will defer to the Daniel, he has worked on the project
19:02.31DTRemenakntkernel.exe.so in wine is a native linux binary, and IT does the startup
19:02.33JeffM.net is more like the Java stuff
19:02.38JeffMAhh
19:02.50JeffMBut mono does not use wine
19:03.05JeffMI believe they have shared code before, correct?
19:03.36DTRemenakmono is a native implementation of .net on unix systems.  it's actually really similar to wine, just a different api (and it additionally needs a bytecode interpreter, like java)
19:03.53DTRemenakwine uses mono to run .net win32 apps
19:04.00JeffMMakes sense
19:04.41DTRemenakwhether mixed-mode or just making stupid assumptions about dll availability
19:05.09JeffMCan you do mixed mode with native Linux code?
19:05.43JeffMNot that it could be a good idea, given all our fun times with mixed mode :)
19:05.43*** join/#bzflag zuii (~cauchy@BC06BF93.catv.pool.telekom.hu)
19:05.46DTRemenakI assume so, but I've never looked into it.
19:06.03DTRemenakhow do you build mono apps on linux?  is there a gcc module for it?
19:06.30*** join/#bzflag Juesto (juest@unaffiliated/juest)
19:06.32JeffMI've always used monodic
19:06.37JeffMMondev
19:06.40Juestohow do i obtain alternative fonts for the game?
19:06.42JeffMSilly iPad
19:07.00JeffMJusto, there is a tool to make them
19:07.38JeffMThey are pictures and an associated data file
19:07.38DTRemenaklooks like mono does not currently support native mixed-mode
19:07.49JeffMProbably for the best
19:08.06Juestohttps://wiki.bzflag.org/Change_Default_Font
19:08.12JeffMI assume you can just pInvoke
19:08.30DTRemenakalthough you can totally use gcc to cross-compile mixed-mode apps for windows and run them on mono+wine.  sometimes people's recommended solutions are WIERD.
19:08.58JeffMHeh
19:09.02Juestowishes to have menlo for monospaced
19:09.30JeffMJuesto: you'll have to make it with the tool
19:10.19DTRemenakby extension I guess you could build with mono+winelib (which lets you build windows exe's that depend on native linux .so's) and get "native" mixed-mode that way
19:10.40JeffMAnd then be dammed to hell for it
19:10.56DTRemenakyeah, there's a significant squick factor there...
19:11.00Juestowhat about cygwin?
19:11.03Juestoor mingw
19:11.15JeffMThat's the other way
19:11.39DTRemenakcygwin is unix api layer running on windows, pretty much the inverse of wine
19:11.40JeffMMixed mode has a lot of general problems, so I can understand why they don't do it
19:12.37DTRemenakheh, can you imagine trying to deal with debugging that? :)
19:12.49JeffMIs a built font tool shipped with Windows bzflag ?
19:12.53DTRemenakthe visual studio debugger freaks out a bit, I can't imagine what gdb would do
19:13.14JuestoDejaVu only
19:13.15blast007the current font tool is for Linux and Mac OS X
19:13.24Juestooh i thought fonts
19:13.33JeffMAhh yeah, you got rid of mine, MFCness
19:13.50JeffMapologizes for that
19:13.54blast007:)
19:14.02JeffMI could redo it in mono :P
19:14.18Juestois confused
19:14.43JeffMJuesto: there is a tool, a program that converts true type fonts, into bzflag fonts
19:14.50JeffMIt is needed to make any new fonts for the game
19:14.55blast007Juesto: if you want new fonts, get the BZFlag 2.4.6 source, and it's in tools/TextTool2/
19:14.57JuestoOkay, and what about "stock" availability?
19:15.02JeffMThat tool only runs on Linux and OSX
19:15.07blast007there is only one font included with the game
19:15.10JuestoAny guidelines? as in, which looks good?
19:15.20JeffMYeah, if you want any other font, you have to convert it
19:15.25JeffMAnd shove it in your folder
19:15.40JeffMThe font is for you, it all depends on what YOU think looks good
19:15.50JeffMNobody else will see it
19:15.51Juestobzf2.0 included a second font it reads...
19:16.08blast007we removed that other font years ago
19:16.16JuestoWasnt good?
19:16.24JeffMLicensing I think?
19:16.31blast007yeah, I think licensing
19:16.45JuestoStill available in old branches?
19:16.58JeffMTheoretically
19:17.16DTRemenakformat hasn't changed, I think, so you should be able to just grab them out of an old binary
19:17.53JeffMYeah, you'd just need the 2 files
19:17.55Juestoyep, 2.0 branch is available
19:18.20Juestoof course, its deleted
19:18.27JeffMEverything should be in history
19:18.34JuestoWould have to pull the repository and then log, yeah thanks
19:18.39DTRemenakor just download an old tarball
19:18.45DTRemenakyou don't need a live repo
19:18.49Juestozip*
19:18.54DTRemenakwhatever :P
19:18.57Juestoits on github so its sort of easier
19:19.17blast007it was removed for 2.0.14, so just look at the v2.0.12 tag
19:19.22JuestoApparently it had different folders?
19:19.31Juestothere is no 2.0.12 tag
19:19.34Juestojust major versions
19:19.41blast007tag, not branches
19:20.07Juestointeresting https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/commits/2.0/data/fonts
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19:21.01*** part/#bzflag twistedcortex (~quantumfo@pool-71-171-103-28.clppva.fios.verizon.net)
19:21.19Juestowhich fonts bzflag had thought the years?
19:22.14blast007look. through. the. tags.
19:22.29Juestodamnit, github doesnt have a link to download specific folders
19:23.06Juestoblast007: it always had the old fonts until dejavu replaced everything?
19:23.35blast007you can answer that question yourself
19:24.16Juestoits going to be a waste of time for me to look history if you do remember
19:25.26Juestoto be clear, what's the latest tree? 2.4?
19:25.48blast0072.4 is the current stable branch
19:26.10Juesto*latest* tree, apparently master isnt latest
19:27.40blast007master is 2.5, but 2.6 is very unlikely to ever be released
19:28.43Juestois bzflag theoritically portable?
19:28.55Juestoas in, it works without installing it
19:29.01blast007on what platform?
19:29.07Juestowindows
19:29.51blast007we do require that the Visual C++ 2010 runtimes are installed
19:30.08Juestothats a very common thing blast007
19:30.39Juestoi guess it doesnt need an installer except for the vc++10 redist
19:30.44blast007right
19:31.17Juestoi didnt look much around the site but is there a download-and-run binary?
19:31.21blast007but we don't follow the PortableApps requirements.  We do make (temporary?) changes to the registry, and I don't think the -confdir option worked 100% correctly.
19:31.45blast007no
19:31.53blast007you'd have to install and the just copy the installed files
19:31.57blast007then*
19:32.09Juestodoes the game create the registry entries?
19:32.45blast007yes, but I think it just stores the current path to the running .exe for the Xfire gaming IM client, which it removes when the game exits
19:32.47Juestonvm, i just realized the installer does since the game runs fine on limited users/without elevation
19:33.14JuestoAh, then it is "portable"
19:33.15blast007the only registry entries that the installer creates are for uninstalling the game later
19:33.28blast007it's 'portable-ish'
19:33.38DTRemenakheh, nobody's pulled the xfire code yet?
19:33.45Juestodo the installer allows extraction?
19:34.01blast007Juesto: we use NSIS, so go find out
19:34.08Juesto7zip or similar tool to extract its content, ah nevermind
19:34.27DTRemenakthey shut down their servers last year sometime
19:34.51Juestoapologies, i should have looked
19:34.56Juestoit does
19:35.12blast007DTRemenak: ah, fun
19:35.42blast007I don't even know if *anyone* ever used it, besides me once to see what it actually did :P
19:35.51Juestoi used to use xfire
19:35.52DTRemenakI did
19:35.54Juestothe classic one
19:36.37blast007adds that to his list of 'final fixes for BZFlag'
19:36.39JuestoIs the font switch in 2.0.12-14 the only one?
19:37.20Juestoi would like to know if theres more :p
19:38.01blast007why?
19:38.18Juestoexperimentation
19:38.29blast007so make your own.  we provide a tool to do that.
19:38.39blast007at least for Linux and OSX
19:38.42Juestoshame its not for windows :/
19:39.07Juestowhere is the frog used in?
19:39.18blast007raining frogs
19:39.45Juestobzfs setting?
19:40.04blast007yes
19:40.12Juestoand could the teleport be less blinding?
19:40.29Juestoi mean, why it was made *that* blinding
19:41.16Juestoand are the models used in experimental part of the engine? i dont seem to find them anywhere
19:41.20Juestoin data
19:41.54blast007there are no external models.  it's all code.
19:42.55DTRemenakah, looks like 2.0 only got the registry key, not all the stats stuff for XFIRE (at least, I don't see any code protected by USE_XFIRE)
19:43.04JuestoHeh
19:43.12DTRemenak2.99 has a boatload of support code
19:43.30Juestois 2.99 the most-feature-wise version?
19:43.49Juestodespite discontinued it still remains the "best" right?
19:44.00DTRemenakbest, worst, whatever :P
19:44.32blast007"best" ... uh...  it had a lot of fancy features and new bells and whistles, but it was completely unplayable, so if that's "best", sure
19:44.33DTRemenak6 years or so more development than 2.4, but it had a few outstanding problems
19:44.55Juestoit was unplayable?
19:44.59Juestocrashy as hell?
19:45.09Juestobut what kind of computer do people have?
19:45.11DTRemenaknetcode was pretty badly broken
19:45.16JuestoOuch
19:45.17blast007not crashy, but the game would go all kinds of crazy after playing for a while
19:45.27JuestoLeaking itself?
19:45.38JuestoI see, not optimized.
19:45.40DTRemenakand the font stuff was not completely stable
19:46.10blast007no, it wasn't optimization issues, it was bugged all to hell
19:46.28Juestoah okay
19:46.51Juestonot just unoptimized, broken portions
19:46.52blast007and it worked fine for like 30 to 60 minutes sometimes with several players on, and then it would start to go mental
19:47.17Juestoweird
19:48.36Juestotbh, a git log would be better for exactly knowing when the old fonts were gone
19:48.57Juestoi mean, i would like to obtain their last version, they were this "unoptimized" ?
19:50.21DTRemenakso go look at the git log...
19:50.23Juestoseems to have attraction for obselete/discontinued software
19:50.43Juestocant without fetching the entire thing lol
19:50.45DTRemenakhttps://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/commits/2.4/data/fonts
19:52.08JuestoNevermind
19:52.17Juestoit was actually the only change
19:56.59JuestoSerif is no longer used?
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21:11.11*** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://wiki.bzflag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.6 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19241
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21:11.36DTRemenakapache is not lgpl 2 compatible
21:12.25Juestoits a GPL3 compatible license
21:12.37blast007we are not GPL3
21:12.41blast007we are LGPL2
21:12.44JeffMburn it!!!!!!
21:12.57JeffMGPL3 is the werk of the devil
21:14.46Juestowhy? how?
21:14.50JeffMviral
21:15.02JeffMforces you into one "kind" of fredom
21:15.12JeffMless flexable
21:15.24JeffMIMHO of course :)
21:18.40blast007still not 100% sold on profont's licensing... there are various versions there tweaked by other people, so I'm not sure those versions could have been relicensed as MIT
21:19.27Juestofreesans ?
21:19.30Juestoopen sans?
21:19.56Juestoapache2 D=
21:20.11the_mapdune sands?
21:20.17JeffMis the entire playerbase wanting new fonts?
21:20.34Juestono, but let them have alternatives
21:20.44JeffMthey don't have to be installed by default
21:20.49JeffMmake some and see how they play
21:20.57JeffMpublish them, see if others like them...
21:21.04JuestoFreeSans: License: GPL font exception, GNU General Public License
21:21.06JeffMthe system doesn't pevent you from using multiple fonts
21:21.20JeffMdo you just not want to learn how to use the tool?
21:21.29JeffMand are hoping someone will do it for you?
21:21.34blast007he runs Windows, I think
21:21.36Juestoneeds a binary of the tool
21:21.43JuestoW32
21:21.48JeffMvirtual box :)
21:22.13JeffMor go back in history and get the windows version of the tool
21:22.27blast007TextTool2 also doesn't seem to build in Debian Jessie, needs a newer libpng (I think?)
21:22.38blast007works in Debian Testing
21:23.04JuestoCant be crosscompiled for windows?
21:23.23JeffMprobably
21:23.26Juestowhat does use .net?
21:23.31JeffMno
21:23.31Juestoi mean, talking about mono
21:23.34JeffMno
21:23.38JeffMfont tool is before that
21:23.38Juestobefore
21:23.51Juestotalking about something else
21:23.53Juestonot about the tool
21:24.06JeffMbest to tell people you are switching topics then :)
21:24.14Juestoyeah sorry
21:24.23JeffMnothing in bzflag uses .net
21:26.24Juestoso yeah, i am asking for a binary download of the tool
21:26.35JeffMnobody has it for windows
21:26.39JeffMit's writen for linux
21:26.50Juestocompiling bzflag is more or less a nightmare also
21:26.55JeffMyou'd have to go back in history, before they removed the windows version and build it
21:26.59Juestoi tried, lots of errors
21:27.00JeffMthis would not be
21:27.07JeffMyou are probalby missing dependencies
21:27.13blast007compiling on what platform?
21:27.15JeffMtexttool1 should not have any other than MFC
21:27.42JuestoHow do i include the dependencies of bzflag when the deps dont have a project file or is a vc6 file?
21:27.50JeffMyou get the premade package
21:27.53blast007vc6??
21:28.17Juestoor rather, how do i include the compiled dependencies to compile bzflag?
21:28.19JeffMblast007: did you get rid of all the checked in dep code?
21:28.28blast007yes
21:28.40JeffMdid you add an environment var to look for headers and libs in?
21:28.46blast007now it's all in a slightly broken separate repository
21:28.47JeffMor a special folder?
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21:29.09blast007Juesto: we include documentation with the expectation that you'll read it, so maybe start there
21:29.11Juestouh, think i tired without an effect?
21:29.20Juestoabout the enviorment variable
21:29.32JeffMdo you know what those are?
21:30.09Juestothe documentation is also somewhat confusing
21:30.10blast007environment variables - that's stuff like barometric pressure, right?
21:30.19blast007what part is confusing?
21:30.21JeffMmine is 4
21:31.14Juestoi dont have the computers i've tried to build handy
21:32.03Juestoare every supported bzdb client variables listed in the config file?
21:32.27JeffMno
21:32.33JeffMonly the ones that are saved
21:32.33blast007most of the ones you'd care about are
21:32.41JeffMbecause they are saved :)
21:33.00JeffMserver sets a bunch more, but you can't change them so it doesn't matter what they are
21:33.56Juestodo the config save every client variable ?
21:34.16blast007do you even read what we say?
21:34.29JeffMno, that'd be too hard
21:34.49JuestoI do, its just not completely clear blast007
21:35.05Juestoi literally asked to rephrase
21:35.11blast007"no, only the ones that are saved"
21:35.25JeffMsome are always inited at default
21:35.29JeffMso they don't need to be saved
21:35.32JeffMsome are optional
21:35.47Juestookay, i am interested in these optional ones
21:35.48blast007some are just used internally for minor state tracking
21:36.01blast007no you're not
21:36.08JeffMthere is no list
21:36.11JeffMthere are no secrets
21:36.22JeffMthe cake is a lie
21:36.40Juestoi guess what i am asking is, are there any "useful" client-only variable that is not saved by default
21:36.44Juesto?
21:36.53blast007probably not
21:37.09JeffMif it was useful it'd be saved ;)
21:37.21Juestoand is there a good bzw editor that is not a blender plugin?
21:37.34JeffMdo you think that there is secretly a good game hidden inside bzflag and it's just not turned on?
21:37.36blast007any text editor
21:37.45JuestoAnd what do i do?
21:37.54JeffMnotepad++ wrorks quite well
21:37.55blast007type stuff
21:37.57JuestoWSYIWYG please
21:37.58JeffMyou write maps in the bzw language
21:38.01JeffMnope
21:38.03JeffMdoes not exist
21:38.15Juestothere were bzedit... :/
21:38.24JeffMyes there was, it was a hack
21:38.27JeffMand never updated
21:38.30JeffMit also used MFC :)
21:38.34Juestoand a blender plugin...
21:38.36JeffMso bad....
21:38.43JuestoOhh.... vc98 days!
21:38.45JeffMthere is bzworkbench, but it is not complete by a longchot
21:39.18Juestolets say i want to make something like hix, no meshes, what do i use?
21:39.28JeffMa text editor
21:39.59JeffMwe are not joking
21:40.01Juestowsyiwyg, not a text editor, come on
21:40.09JeffMthere isn't one
21:40.15JeffMseriously
21:40.28JeffMpeople make maps by text file
21:40.31JeffMor in blender
21:40.34JuestoThen why the wiki explains *multiple* ones
21:40.37JeffMor with meshes in wingz
21:40.50JeffMsome people still use bzedit
21:40.53JeffMI don't know why
21:40.55JeffMbut they do
21:41.02JuestoBecause it works good?
21:41.10JeffMno, because there isn't anything else
21:41.11Juestoand/or was the official tool?
21:41.16JeffMthere isn't one
21:41.25JeffMyou are becoming anoying
21:41.33blast007bzedit could make a basic map, but you'd have to fix the teleporters in a text editor because it makes ones invalid for current bzfs versions
21:41.43JeffMyeah it's really old
21:41.48blast007specifically, removing the 'name' line from the teleporters
21:41.50JeffMbut it will let you postion boxes
21:41.56JuestoSorry for the annoyance... i just.... :|
21:42.00zuiibzworkbench does not work at all?
21:42.02JeffMdraging sucks in it
21:42.18JeffMzuii: depends on your level of skill in building it and what you want it to do
21:42.22JeffMit as some features
21:42.28JeffMbut is missing some useability ones
21:42.37JeffMit's not near "feature complete"
21:42.40zuiiow, okay :(
21:42.42blast007bzworkbench does similar things as bzedit though it can *show* more detailed maps
21:42.56JeffMyeah it has a better map reader, but it lacking in editing tools
21:43.04JeffMbasicly it was just left half finished
21:43.05blast007supports viewing least some mesh objects and can load remote textures
21:43.11blast007at least*
21:43.35Juestoi've never seen frog rain in bzf
21:43.42JeffMthen turn it on
21:43.52JeffMdo you think we lie to you about things?
21:43.53KaadmYJuesto: i think mofo has frog rain
21:44.01JuestoKaadmY: it doesnt?
21:44.47KaadmYa good bzflag editor would be pretty difficult with 2.0 map objects
21:45.03KaadmYif you have mesh support, you pretty much need a complete mesh editor
21:45.09KaadmYor have mesh import options
21:45.22blast007it was probably just gonna be a mesh importer
21:45.25JeffMKaadmY: the idea was to let it mostly postion meshes, and update them from an editor
21:45.25KaadmYbut then the mesh you made with an external editor will have problems, like no inside points
21:45.33JeffMyeah, not a mesh maker, but a mesh layout tool
21:45.36JeffMgroups and stuff
21:45.37Juestohm
21:45.55blast007probably scaling too, *maybe* texturing
21:45.58JeffMKaadmY: there are algorityms that could be applied inside the editor
21:46.16KaadmYbtw why do meshboxes have broken textures when the aspect isn't square
21:46.24JeffMbut that would be what bzworkbench would do, help you setup the mesh for bzflag, if not create it.
21:46.42JeffMbecause they have fixed UV coords.
21:46.49JeffMnot parametrics like the boxes
21:46.57KaadmY"fixed", meaning "broken"?
21:47.05JeffMno as in 0 and 1 :)
21:47.06JeffMstatic
21:47.15JeffMthey do not change based on the size of the object
21:47.33KaadmYcouldn't that be easily fixed though?
21:47.38JeffMa box that is 1 high and 2 wide, would want it's horizontal U coordinates to be 0 and 2, not 0 and 1.
21:47.46JeffMprobalby
21:47.56KaadmYit's a big problem with mapping imo
21:47.59blast007also, there are three kinds of boxes in the game.  box, meshbox, and "meshed box" (which is a normal box that has some 'mesh-type' attribute added to it)
21:48.16KaadmYbecause they look like c*** ingame
21:48.22JeffMmeshboxes are really just a hack, optimialy you'd define the mesh yourself, with whatever UV you wanted.
21:48.34JeffMthey were a cheap way to make boxes that could have materials
21:48.35KaadmYaren't meshed boxes just converted to meshbox?
21:48.41blast007no
21:48.53KaadmYwhat's different then?
21:49.03JeffMin a mesh, you define the faces and vertecies
21:49.04KaadmYstuff that doesn't need to change isn't changed?
21:49.06JeffMthey can be anywhere
21:49.10KaadmYyes
21:49.13JeffMthey can be in the shape of a box
21:49.15JeffMwe don't care
21:49.18JeffMit's still a mesh
21:49.21KaadmYikr
21:49.28JeffMa meshbox is like a macro to make a predefined mesh
21:49.41KaadmYyes
21:49.42blast007KaadmY: try driving through a meshbox and a 'meshed box' with OO
21:49.43JeffMyou say meshbox, and it makes a mesh with points it defined
21:49.47blast007one you'll get stuck in
21:49.50JeffMso the code in bzfs defines the UVs
21:50.12KaadmYJeffM: i know that already
21:50.24KaadmYbut i don't know why the UVs are stretched in one axis
21:50.27JeffMso it doesn't know that a mesh with square verts is a "meshbox"
21:50.38JeffMbecause it ALWAYS sets the UVs to 0 and 1
21:50.51JeffMthey are hardcoded
21:51.04KaadmYmeshbox UV coords aren't 0 and 1
21:51.11KaadmYlarge boxes look good if the x/y aspect is 1
21:51.21JeffMdoes the texture repeat?
21:51.24KaadmYyep
21:51.35JeffMok, then it sets both to the same based on the total scale
21:51.49KaadmYthat's why i'm not sure why it's like that
21:51.51JeffMto make the aspect right, it would have to set the UVs based on the aspect ratio of each face
21:51.57JeffMbecause it wasn't writen that way
21:51.59KaadmYcouldn't the coords use the box's size in both axes?
21:52.03JeffMsure
21:52.08KaadmYhas an idea
21:52.10blast007it could do a lot of things
21:52.15JeffMit's not that it's impossible, it's that it was just not writen that way
21:52.16JeffMfix it
21:52.22KaadmYi'll try later
21:52.53blast007as long as it's just a visual change, it should be fine to include for 2.4.8
21:53.21JeffMare meshboxes sent over the wire as meshbox?
21:56.43KaadmYJeffM: nope, they're meshes afaik
21:56.58JeffMthen your fix would be serverside only and work in in all client versions
21:57.15JeffMsince you'd be fixing the UVs at meshification time
21:57.17KaadmYnow i have to figure out how to make branches withgit :(
21:58.00blast007are arcs sent as meshes?
21:58.06KaadmYi'd guess that are
21:58.20KaadmYno idea about how mesh objects are sent though
21:58.26Juestohow come most of the stuff in mountain crossing map do not appear on radar
21:58.47JeffMthere should be a section in the code in bzfs where it reads the meshbox. from there it will add the mesh object to the world database
21:58.53JeffMyou'd just modify the object before it's added
22:00.51KaadmYbtw is there any release timeline for 2.5?
22:01.30JeffMyou don't want to work on the new project?
22:02.12KaadmYwhich new project?
22:02.25JeffMTHE new project
22:02.28KaadmY..
22:02.37KaadmYthat's what i'm asking ;_;
22:02.40JeffMas of yet unnamed super cool tank game
22:02.50KaadmY"unnamed super cool tank game"
22:02.52JeffMit was in the channel logs
22:02.58KaadmY^ why i'm not planning on working on it :P
22:03.18JeffMstuff doesn't get magically made
22:03.35JeffMit's design is happening in another channel
22:03.59the_mapJeffM: what channel>
22:04.01the_map* ?
22:04.07JeffM##teamchillax
22:04.15KaadmYoh that one ;_;
22:04.17the_map...right...
22:04.57JeffMeverything has to start someone
22:04.59JeffMsomewhere
22:05.28JuestoI wanted to know that too!!!
22:05.31*** join/#bzflag Void7 (~NULL@205.157.147.198)
22:06.02blast007arcs are sent differently than a mesh, I think.  There is an ArcObstacle class with a pack/unpack method.  And meshboxes are arcs, not meshes.
22:06.28KaadmYum wait
22:06.32JeffMarcs were before full meshes IIRC
22:06.38KaadmYmeshboxes are sent as arcs?
22:06.46JeffMvery straight arcs :)
22:06.52JeffMthen your change will be client side
22:07.00JeffMor you can have bzfs change them to real meshes
22:07.00KaadmYdarn
22:07.01blast007whereas a mesh'ed box is a mesh
22:07.22KaadmYis it way too late to make arcs, meshboxes, meshpyrs etc sent as meshes?
22:07.31KaadmYand have meshgen on the server?
22:07.33JeffMthis is why I prefer a unified geometry definition at the game level :)
22:07.47blast007arcs do (un)pack 4 'texsize' values
22:08.04blast007KaadmY: yes, far too late
22:08.05JeffMKaadmY: no that woudl be compatbile with old clients,.
22:08.14blast007there will not be any more major updates to BZFlag
22:08.18JeffMlate in the lifetime of bzflag, yes
22:08.27JeffMbut not late in the map loading pipeline :)
22:09.31KaadmYgroans
22:09.41KaadmYmeshpyrs are cones with 4 divisions
22:09.46JeffMhow long did it take for the last 2 point releases?
22:10.52blast007JeffM: 2.4.2 was 2012-07-28, 2.4.4 was 2016-02-14, and 2.4.6 was 2016-06-26
22:11.29JeffMso 2.4.6 was a "oh no we screwed up 2.4.4" ?
22:11.30blast0072.4.4 did have a lot of changes though
22:11.45JeffMor did it have planned features?
22:11.50blast0072.4.6 was mostly to fix Windows 10 with AMD crap
22:11.54JeffMyeah
22:12.00JeffMso fixes that didn't make it
22:12.07blast007I was tired of holding off the release for that issue
22:12.11Juestomake 2.4.6.1 ?
22:12.25blast007Juesto: why?
22:12.27JeffMread the version document
22:12.42Juestore-release 2.4.6 ?
22:12.46JeffMso really you had 4 years between point releases
22:12.48blast007Juesto: why?
22:13.00JeffMthey added a few more features too, probalby things people threw in
22:13.18JeffMyeah it's just a number
22:13.23JeffMnumbers are cheap :)
22:13.39JeffMbut they all mean something
22:13.40blast0072.4.6 cleaned up some documentation and added a few things, yes
22:14.56KaadmYwhat's the last release? 2.4.6 or 2.4.7?
22:14.59JeffMthat sounds like more then a "build system was busted" .1 release
22:15.03blast0072.4.6
22:15.27blast007JeffM: what does?
22:15.31JeffM2.4.6 would be the last release. trunk would be .7 if the standard is still followd
22:15.37JeffMthe features you added
22:15.42JeffMI just read the wiki
22:16.31blast007switching from windows platform code to SDL2 is a pretty big change for a 'rebuild revision'
22:16.32KaadmYdoes anybody still host/play rubato ffa?
22:16.36JeffMwhen I wrote the first version doc, a .1 would be a "oh no, we had to repackage" release, where it's functionaly identical but some small problem was fixed.
22:16.47JeffMyeah, thats why I say .6 made sense
22:17.09JeffMyou had bugs/features that didn't make it, not a build/package failure
22:50.25KaadmYAGH "statemachine.cpp:52:43: error: ‘<::’ cannot begin a template-argument list [-fpermissive]" while compiling qt5 for the past 5 hours
22:51.10blast007what are you compiling it on?
22:51.18KaadmYblast007: linux, debian-based distro
22:51.29blast007I mean, what kind of CPU
22:51.37KaadmYCPU shouldn't matter
22:51.45KaadmYit's not compiling
22:51.57blast007yes, CPU should affect how long it takes  :P
22:52.01KaadmYno
22:52.03KaadmY^ the error
22:52.15blast007I'm asking about you complaining about how long it took
22:52.22KaadmYi wasn't really
22:52.29KaadmY^ after 5 hours it wouldn't compile anyway
22:52.33JeffMlinux!
22:52.37KaadmYJeffM: yup
22:52.39Juestolol
22:52.43JeffMso much better it seems
22:52.44KaadmYcandy!
22:52.51KaadmYcandy and rainbows!
22:53.00JeffMand you are building QT5 to get what kind of performance increase?
22:53.03blast007[15:31:04] < KaadmY> been compiling qt5 the whole day and it's still not finished
22:53.11DTRemenakshould be able to stick a space between < and ::
22:53.19KaadmYi'll try that DTRemenak
22:53.32KaadmYJeffM: i'm building qt5 because it's not on this system
22:53.33JeffMit does incremental builds right?
22:53.47JeffMand you don't have a package manager with it?
22:54.36KaadmYpackage manager might have it
22:54.39blast007apt install qt5-default
22:54.46KaadmYbut if it does, it's an older version
22:54.55JeffMahh bleeding edge
22:55.11KaadmYi don't mind the compile time
22:55.30KaadmYit actually doesn't slow this laptop down too much if i compile with 1 core
22:55.42blast007is this your atom laptop?
22:55.46KaadmYno :P
22:55.52KaadmYJuesto has an atom laptop iirc
22:55.53KaadmY'
22:55.54zuiioh my
22:55.59blast007oh right
22:56.17KaadmYnot wait 20 minutes for make to go through all the targets to see what's finished
22:56.19KaadmYnow wait*
22:56.24DTRemenakremember to use parallel compilation.  it's a lot faster.
22:56.25Juestoits a celeron and it works fine by the way
22:56.33zuiimake -j8!
22:56.51blast007Juesto: it's an atom branded as a celeron
22:56.52JeffMit's an atom dual core with a celelron sticker
22:57.03Juestoits a dual core one without hyperthreading
22:57.10Juestoand way faster than actual atom ones
22:57.18JeffMthey made dual core atoms
22:57.22JeffMwith 2 real cores
22:57.23blast007Juesto: it *is* an actual atom
22:57.24JeffMI had one
22:57.35blast007I've got a quad-core atom, even
22:57.38KaadmYDTRemenak: then i can't do anything else
22:57.39JeffMif a sticker changes things, then hell my car is a spaceship!
22:57.46KaadmYzuii: "make -j" ftw
22:58.11DTRemenaksure you can, that's what nice is for
22:58.16JeffMJuesto: the atom was getting a bad name, so they just rebranded the same silicon
22:58.45JeffMit's a fast atom, not a slow pentium
22:58.48blast007I think the latest atoms have out-of-order execution, which might help them be a bit less crap
22:58.56blast007but that one isn't one of those
22:59.03JeffMI'd think 2 real cores would be better then hyperthreading
22:59.03Juestohas PAE
22:59.12Juestobecause its required since win8
22:59.14JeffMbut not a lot
22:59.25JeffMsure, so it's the current gen of the atom line
22:59.30Juestodownloads cpuz
22:59.43JeffMthe inital celerons were downbined regular CPUs
22:59.50JeffMthe atoms were designed for low power use
22:59.51blast007Juesto: "PAE was first introduced in the Pentium Pro"  so what's your point?  :)
23:00.01JeffMthat he can't run dos :)
23:00.08Juestoatoms dont have pae
23:00.23blast007says who?
23:00.43blast007I think every intel CPU since the Pentium Pro has had PAE
23:00.55blast007there were some Pentium M's that said they didn't but actually did
23:01.37JeffMdon't all 64 bit CPUs need it?
23:03.17Juesto"Bay Trail M"
23:03.36JeffMwhat one do you have?
23:03.53Jueston8240
23:03.54KaadmYDTRemenak: is "<::" a syntax error, or is it something that works in a newer version of GCC or something?
23:03.59Juesto1170 bga
23:04.21blast007http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/embedded/products/bay-trail/overview.html
23:04.51zuii"elivering outstanding compute, graphical, and media performance" :D
23:05.28Juestohttp://imgur.com/mGOjGFt
23:06.20JeffM"Silvermont is a microarchitecture for low-power Atom, Celeron and Pentium branded processors "
23:06.25JeffMthats what you gots
23:06.34blast007https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvermont
23:06.40Juesto"Bay Trail-M"
23:06.59KaadmYJuesto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvermont#Mobile_processors_.28Bay_Trail-M.29
23:07.02JeffMyeah, silvermont is the archetecture
23:07.15blast007so it looks like this *is* the one with out-of-order execution
23:07.27JeffMbut atoms use the same arch
23:07.56DTRemenakKaadmY: newer version of GCC should handle it.  there was a change in C++14 that makes it legal iirc
23:07.58JeffMbasicly if it goes in a tablet they call it an atom, if it goes in a laptop they call it a celeron
23:08.22blast007I've got a quad-core 1.33Ghz (1.83GHz Turbo) Bay Trail-T in my pocket-sized computer
23:08.37blast007lags playing youtube videos
23:08.41KaadmYDTRemenak: ah, thanks. i have gcc 4.7.2
23:09.13JeffMyeah Juesto you've got an atom with a sticker on it because it passed the celeron tests
23:09.28JeffMit is not a slowed down i3, it's a peped up tablet CPU.
23:09.39blast007no, it's just that 'celeron' and 'pentium' have no meaning anymore
23:09.45Juestodoesnt really lags for youtube really
23:09.54blast007they've slapped those labels on all kinds of CPUs
23:10.00Juestoit does bzflag at a fair  fps
23:10.01JeffMblast007: looks like it was binned slightly higher then the atom CPUs too
23:10.09JeffMtrue, celleron means "budget"
23:10.18JeffMit's a brand name, not an archetecture in itself
23:10.38JeffMJuesto: cool so it runs as well as an SGI machine from 1995
23:10.41JeffMcongrats
23:10.47Juestothe sticker just reads "Intel inside"
23:11.02*** join/#bzflag disco- (~disco@unaffiliated/disco-)
23:11.24JeffMheh, the ENTIRE line of celerons with that arch cost the same from intel
23:11.27JeffM107$
23:12.31JeffMprobalby because they could
23:12.50JeffMthe 2.2 ghz atom with nearly identical perfomance is listed at 37$
23:13.40JeffMbut yours has a turbo button
23:13.48JeffMso it's clearly better
23:13.50Juestowhose
23:13.59JeffMyou CPU will burst
23:14.09JeffMup to 2.5 if the bios lets it
23:14.17Juestodoes turbo yeah...
23:14.40Juestobut with speedstep disabled it is 2.16ghz btw
23:14.58JeffMyes, that's it's 7.5w TWP setting
23:15.01JeffMfor power use
23:16.12JeffMoof, a total of 1x4 PCI lanes
23:16.50JeffMI wonder how yours is configured
23:17.19JeffMdo you have a SSD in it?
23:17.22Juestoo
23:17.24Juestono
23:17.29Juestopavilon x360
23:17.38Juestobrought march 2015
23:17.45JeffMhow big is the hard drive?
23:17.50Juesto500gb
23:18.20JeffMfor not more than 400$ I hope
23:18.52blast007probably less than 400, since the x360 with a Pentium is $430 right now
23:19.01Juesto8k ARS
23:19.19JuestoAR$*
23:19.35JeffM540$ usd
23:19.48JeffMstuff does cost more outside the US, it's sad
23:20.05blast007exchange rate varies too
23:20.05Juestomarch 2015
23:20.19Juestoand some cheap stuff is cheaper at argentina for example
23:20.24Juestolike usb cables
23:20.54JeffMso less then a dollar?
23:21.18Juestono, but slightly less than in us
23:21.40JeffMI get them from monoprice and don't spend more then a few dollars
23:21.44JeffMUSB, HDMI
23:22.28JeffMnobody needs the silly gold ones
23:22.31Juestodamnit, i have a inspiron 11 3000 series stuck on "Just a moment"
23:22.52Juestobrand new and stuck after completing oobe
23:23.00Juestono network access
23:23.11Juestohas wifi connected but ap isolation
23:23.33Juestoi am at a condo
23:23.48blast007that's good to know
23:24.03JeffMnotes it in the log
23:24.19the_mapI'm glad I have IRC logs turned on
23:24.21Juestoand its just stuck... rebooted it and what was blue now turned purple
23:24.23the_mapwith timestamps even
23:24.25Juestolol
23:24.32Juestoim the opposite :D
23:24.48Juestoall off even irssi away
23:25.10blast007*blip* stardate -307597.72, Juesto is at a condo
23:25.21JeffMsoon we'll be able to get weapons lock
23:25.22JuestoVacations...
23:25.45blast007or maybe it's 70597.72
23:25.50Juestoat usa
23:25.59the_mapoh, USA?
23:26.08JuestoVacations dude
23:26.09JeffMyou got off at the USA bus stop?
23:26.20the_mapit's definitely stardate 4502325.882 then
23:26.28blast007or 94200.9
23:26.29Juestostop sarcasm please
23:26.30JeffMthey have a nice hotdog stand there
23:26.36the_mapDST is pretty bad in the US
23:26.47Juestoat fl lol
23:26.54the_mapoh, florida
23:27.01JeffMmy condolences
23:27.03the_mapsubtract 3 from the standard stardate
23:44.15*** join/#bzflag Void7 (~NULL@205.157.147.198)
23:46.24Juesto-_-
23:46.53the_mapno
23:46.55the_mapthat's a 7
23:47.01the_map3 is .:_
23:47.08JuestoWTF?
23:47.36KaadmYno, wrong the_map
23:47.40KaadmY3 is .::._
23:47.48the_mapno that's 12
23:47.49KaadmYand 42 is :_:

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