IRC log for #bzflag on 20160723

02:30.51*** join/#bzflag Void7 (~Void7@205.157.147.198)
15:55.58*** join/#bzflag KaadmY (uid135503@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gdxjbhhqmxnnbrrz)
15:57.11macsformeso, our 2.4 branch is still the release version... does this mean we all agree we are done with 2.4? :)
15:57.55blast007or done with the current codebase? ;)
15:59.06macsformeyeah
15:59.29the_mapwe should rewrite the whole thing in assembly so we can optimize the code!
16:00.46blast007jokes aside, a rewrite is probably the best way forward
16:01.15blast007it would take as much (or more) effort to fix the existing codebase
16:02.29macsformemy current thought is that for our type of game, we may be better off using individual specialized engines (rendering, physics, audio, and possibly networking) rather than a whole game engine so we have finer control over things we want to do, like lag compensation and server-side state tracking
16:02.53macsformealthough I still haven't extensively reviewed all the options for whole game engines
16:03.12blast007that's my opinion as well
16:03.42blast007some of the engines are going to force our hand with certain aspects of the design
16:09.05blast007and some games end up having to modify the engines, so you end up with a fork you have to maintain
16:09.50JeffMthat's going to mean dependencies.
16:09.53KaadmYblast007: write  the whole thing yourself ;)
16:09.59KaadmYno more dependencies
16:10.04KaadmYbut the no multiplatform...
16:10.08KaadmYthen*
16:10.11JeffMI think it's the right way for you to go, but it does possibly go against your idea of miniumal deps
16:10.33macsformeI've been experimenting with some non-photorealistic rendering techniques and procedural textures (http://imgur.com/a/EaBia and http://imgur.com/a/ygVjS, for example), but after looking at it for a while, I'm starting to think that if we want to have wide appeal rather than be another niche game, we may want to go with something more conventional
16:10.44macsformewhich means we are going to need artists as well as programmers
16:11.20JeffMmost games look like crap untill they are done, so you don't need artists off the bat. you can start with placeholder art
16:11.20blast007JeffM: I'm not against dependencies, I was just trying to limit what Windows needed to have, since stuff like OpenSSL needed Perl to configure it for building, iirc
16:11.50blast007yeah, how it looks is the least of our worries
16:11.50JeffMthen if you just want to manage it smartly then you'll probably be fine
16:12.01blast007need to make it work first, then you can make it look pretty
16:12.28JeffMhow normal game development works, is devs make game do things, while at the same time artists work on better assets
16:12.34JeffMthen it all comes together at the end
16:12.48JeffMif you make things, people will make better art for you during development
16:12.48blast007or, if you're making Sonic games, it doesn't ;)
16:12.59JeffMspecailly if you make it easy to add them
16:13.10JeffMwell if you make sonic games, you hate your audience
16:13.20macsformeyes, but careful with that mindset... a lot of people have made us some nice looking textures and designs over the years, which we have ended up basically ignoring, which is part of why all our stuff is still ugly
16:13.40JeffMmacsforme: oh yes, you start with the assets you have now, use them all
16:13.48JeffMscrounge and grab what you can
16:13.52JeffMbut don't hold code for art
16:14.20JeffMthat's the only point I wanted to make, don't let art stop development
16:14.37JeffMand you can ALWAYS ask me to make you placeholders for things you don't have :)
16:14.37blast007I'd want assets to have proper sources
16:14.57*** join/#bzflag Flak18 (~Flak@2601:58b:c400:4681:65e8:dd06:351e:7cfe)
16:14.59blast007like, not just a PNG texture, but an SVG it was built from
16:15.13JeffMthen it may be a PSD, you will have to accept that
16:15.19JeffMnot everyone draws in vectors
16:15.30macsformeor .xcf :P
16:15.37JeffMyeah there will be several formats
16:15.38blast007we don't have to accept anything ;)
16:15.51JeffMtrue, but that limits your pool of artists
16:16.07JeffMif you have a big enough pool that's fine, but you may find that beggars can't be choosers
16:16.20blast007PSDs require proprietary software to edit/render properly, so that's a no-go for something like Debian
16:16.26JeffMprefering SVG is fine, but you should also be willing to accept other formats.
16:16.35JeffMI think gimp reads them
16:16.40JeffMI have a TON of aps that read PSD
16:16.40blast007they already didn't like that we have textures/sounds licensed as LGPL
16:16.51KaadmYthis page actually exists
16:16.51KaadmYhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmer_art
16:16.52JeffMwell sure, because that doesn't make sense :)
16:16.56blast007:)
16:17.24JeffMI think if you license it as an asset and provide whatever sources you have they should not have reason to complain
16:17.28blast007other software might read a subset of PSD, but I wouldn't count on them to be 100% accurate
16:17.44JeffMunity reads it just fine, at full accuracy
16:17.46KaadmYgimp handles PSD, but it's not perfect
16:18.03JeffMat least have a prefered format for non vector images
16:18.10JeffMyou WILL get people who start from photos
16:18.11blast007I just want vector formats so we can render textures at different sizes without needing to redo stuff
16:18.29JeffMsure, that's always best, but not all assets are hand drawn
16:18.57JeffMjust my opinoin
16:19.12JeffMhaving an art asset submission policy that's published will help you massivly!
16:22.31JeffMone thing to note about vector art, you usualy don't get normal maps with them.....
16:23.19macsformeyeah, they may not be ideal for textures... logos, icons, banners, etc., sure
16:23.33JeffMyeah it's great for GUI work
16:23.41JeffMbut not always for materials
16:24.10macsformeso, can we pick a name?
16:24.29JeffMI sugest you pick a dev group name, then worry about a project name later, after you've designed it
16:24.47blast007the kind of name could change depending on the direction the project takes
16:24.54JeffMyour dev group may end up making multiple projects, services, games, tools, etc...
16:25.17JeffMcall your self the magnificent 7 :)
16:25.52JeffMand yes, as blast007 said, you want a name that matches the design not a design that matches the name :)
16:26.30macsformea dev group name is fine
16:26.40blast007polarbearswithchainsaws
16:26.42JeffMlone rangers
16:26.51JeffMTooManyTacos
16:27.12blast007https://github.com/polarbearswithchainsaws  :P
16:27.29macsformegreat suggestions... just forget I ever asked :P
16:27.31JeffMaww tooo bad it's already taken... so sorry
16:27.42blast007no, it's mine
16:27.46blast007own the domain too
16:27.57JeffMwhat... sorry packet loss.. can't hear you
16:28.05JeffMyou don't know who owns it.. so sad
16:28.13blast007lol
16:31.26macsformehow should we do publicity during this early phase? blogspot? wordpress? forum? mailing list? just IRC?
16:32.26JeffMI would recomend not worrying about blogs or stuff untill you have a basic design
16:32.33blast007do we need to do any publicity during the initial phase?  why not wait until after we have a design fleshed out and have at least something working to do that?
16:32.55JeffMbasicly when you want public comments after your devs have had time to bang on the design and set an overall direction
16:33.04JeffMyeah
16:33.25blast007yeah, getting public feedback too soon will just be noise
16:33.51JeffMyou can use IRC and slack for your colaboration
16:34.14JeffMand a github repo for documents
16:34.36JeffMOOORRR bit bucket because blast007 will sugest it
16:35.21blast007I'd use git/github for any official project stuff
16:35.41JeffMhaving a repo just for design isn't a bad idea
16:35.49JeffMit has history, people can comment....
16:36.29macsformeyou guys don't play, though... I think people who play bzflag already would be interested in tracking progress, and it would be nice to have a place to post concept stuff, maybe not immediately but certainly as things progress
16:36.56macsformethe current community is pretty disheartened about the state of the game
16:37.04JeffMyes, after you get a basic direciton set, THEN You publizie and ask for community comments
16:37.19blast007the current community isn't necessarily the target
16:37.21JeffMyou don't want to design by commitie
16:37.41JeffMand yeah you need to resolve WHO your target is before you ask your target things
16:37.56JeffMyou need to clarify things that each of you may be assuming
16:38.15JeffMbecause it's clear that you 2 at least have slightly different ideas about the direction of the project
16:38.34JeffMyou need that rectified and both need to agree on the final direction before you do ANYTHING public
16:38.48blast007I think we both want to target more modern OpenGL, and that alone is going to prevent a number of people in the community from playing
16:38.55JeffMyou don't want to appear divided to your community, you want to be accepting but not divided
16:40.13macsformeit's less about the feedback than about giving people in our current community some encouragement, but yeah, I don't disagree with making a little progress before doing so
16:40.50macsformeit's just that it would be nice for me to have somewhere to post my UI mockups and graphics concepts that I've been creating
16:41.35JeffMsure, but that should not be part of the project untill AFTER it's got at least a set of basic requirements
16:41.49macsformethat stuff could just go to other developers, though, not the public
16:41.52JeffMand honestly, they are YOUR mockups, they have not be accepted
16:42.01JeffMthat's stuff for your personal block
16:42.02JeffMblog
16:42.32JeffMonce they are accepted, or at least approved as possible candidates, THEN you show them in the context of the project
16:42.45JeffMyou don't want to make people think they are getting something that only you think is good
16:42.57JeffMand then have all your other devs/designers go a different direction
16:43.10JeffMthat will just tell your people that you have no clue what you are doing
16:43.20JeffMand really.. chat in the middle.... not pretty ;)
16:43.47macsformeit's not...
16:44.16JeffMyou are correct, you do need a place to get feedback on design mockups, but even that is cart before horse
16:44.31JeffMdecide what you want to do, then you can work on how you want to do it
16:47.11JeffMit should not take you more then a week or so to get a basic direciton down, then you can start telling people stuff
16:47.24JeffMso don't think it would be months and months
16:47.46JeffMif it takes you months to get a basic direction down, you don't have a viable proejct and sould not post anything at all
16:48.02macsformeit sounds like you are coming from the context of a large development team... I would love to have that, but maybe we should establish whether we will actually have that or not before setting such expectations
16:48.25JeffMyes, setting expectations is what I mean by direction
16:48.30JeffMeven small teams need to do that
16:48.48JeffMthink of it this way, how many "rewrite" false starts has your current community had?
16:49.34JeffMdo you really want to get there hopes up if you don't have a chance of not being another failure?
16:51.20JeffMI've been down the failure route many, many, many times. so this is why I'm offering this advice :)
16:51.23macsformeI am aware of zero "false starts" in this project where multiple existing developers came together, collaborated on a design, and started writing actual code that then fizzled out
16:51.47JeffMsure, that's why you have the highest chance of working
16:52.08JeffMbut look at what the users see, people showing screenshots for new projects, all kinds of things that look like rewrites to them
16:52.18JeffMthey don't know that it was just one dude who was destined to fail
16:52.27JeffMthey just see ideas come and die
16:54.58blast007there's been a number of forks, if you want to count those too.  BZFlag X and BZFlag Zero, probably others I'm forgetting.  And there was Project 2501: http://www.wizards.de/~frank/project2501/index.html
16:55.20JeffMand the crystal space thing
16:55.30blast007yup
16:55.36JeffMand the unity rewrite the guy on facebook was doing
16:55.49JeffMpublicly there have been a number of "attempts" by various people
16:55.58blast007we've had two different major releases get cancelled.  1.8 and 3.0.
16:56.18JeffMit just does a better service to your community to have a gimmer of a plan before you go and announce you are going to save the world :)
16:57.05JeffMat the minium you need a basic mission statement and a plan for how you are going to make your plan
16:57.26JeffMbut showing GUI work before you even know what your game is going to do is wrong.
16:57.30blast007think of it like kickstarter.  you want to have enough to show people so that it grabs their interest and makes them want to throw money at the screen.  you don't just say "yeah, so I want to make some game with tanks and I need your support".
16:57.38JeffMhow can you make a GUI when you don't know what the GUI is suposed to show?
16:57.55JeffMyeah, you need at least enough info to make a poorly produced video
16:58.01blast007;D
16:58.20JeffMand renders... you need renders that won't look anything like the final product
16:58.21blast007or it's like any kind of a business pitch
16:58.44JeffMyeah, you are asking your community to invest there hopes in you
16:59.47blast007and there will be people that will try to crap on whatever we do, so we want to have something to show to shut them down
17:01.53macsformeso it sounds like we need to establish who will be hashing out this initial design, the scope of the initial design, and what platform/tools for collaboration will be used
17:02.15macsformeI am on board... blast007, you are on board, yes?
17:03.13blast007yep
17:06.58JeffMmacsforme: that's a very good start.
17:07.12JeffMthen you'll at least have a framework for answering the questions that come up
17:08.01macsformelet's pick a team name and make a new channel
17:08.30JeffMhijack and rename this one :)
17:10.05macsforme"Project Doomed to Fail"
17:10.11blast007it'll take us a month to come up with a name - don't you know that naming things is the hardest part of anything? ;)
17:10.12macsforme"Project Impossible"
17:10.20JeffMLatverian Developers United.
17:10.23macsforme"Project Why Bother Trying Again"
17:10.24JeffMDoom is pleased
17:10.51macsformeno, we're going to pick one in the next ten minutes, and then live with it :P
17:11.05JeffM"I guess this name will do"
17:11.13blast007Live With It
17:11.14JeffM"Untitled Development Team" UDT
17:11.25blast007lol
17:11.35JeffMInsert Name Here
17:11.43JeffMI am not a robot
17:11.46blast007or we could use the GSoC joke organization Most Desirable Organization
17:12.05macsformesomething succinct, with a github organization and comain name available
17:12.08JeffMSetec Astronomy
17:12.09macsforme*domain
17:13.11JeffMhttp://www.wordlab.com/gen/team-name-generator.php
17:13.16blast007(for reference, http://grokbase.com/t/python/soc2014-mentors/1437a0910g/were-a-most-desirable-organization )
17:13.41JeffM"We don't suck"
17:14.43macsformewe could shorten "Live With It" to "lwi", and do "Project LWI"... that's a bit of a mouthfull
17:16.14blast007I don't know if I can live with that name
17:16.15JeffMthat may make people think you want them to just live with your project
17:16.35macsformethe irony would be biting
17:16.48JeffMIronicDevelopmentTeam
17:17.04blast007we'll just change direction and make a completely different game called Third Life, that is played from within Second Life
17:17.19macsformejust take the name of the month we started? Project July
17:17.31JeffMyou aren't naming the project
17:17.34JeffMyou naming the person
17:17.38JeffMgroup I mean
17:17.53JeffMJuly Consortium
17:17.57*** join/#bzflag Ristovski (~364e20076@unaffiliated/ristovski)
17:18.02macsformeapparently just naming the group is a project in itself
17:18.15JeffMwhen it's done by commitie, yes :)
17:18.16blast007that's what I said ;)
17:18.43blast007or we could just use the one I already have from the last time we did this
17:19.07Ristovskiincrement
17:19.11macsformethe one what?
17:19.13Ristovskibz -> ca
17:19.24Ristovskithen when you reach cz, da
17:19.26blast007polarbearswithchainsaws
17:19.49blast007the github group and domain
17:20.36macsformekind of long, and we should maybe avoid references to violence
17:20.57blast007he's a lumberjack
17:21.00JeffMpolarbearswithoutchainsaws
17:21.03blast007lol
17:21.30JeffMblast007: but is he ok?
17:21.48macsformejust take the date? "Team 723"
17:22.08blast007Team 404
17:22.25JeffMno, what's the relocated code?
17:22.28JeffMbecause that's what you did
17:22.35JeffMresource has been moved :)
17:22.51macsforme301
17:22.51blast007https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HTTP_status_codes#3xx_Redirection
17:23.19blast007of course team404.com and team301.com are taken..
17:23.22macsforme301 is the police code for a prostitute... no good
17:23.31JeffM308
17:23.36JeffMyou ain't going back
17:24.02macsformeit's available
17:24.09KaadmYWAIT WHAT
17:24.11KaadmY"418 I'm a teapot (RFC 2324)"
17:24.15JeffMyeah
17:24.16macsformethe .com, anyway
17:24.17JeffMthat's a thing
17:24.20JeffMdeal wiht it ;)
17:25.22blast007projectteapot isn't taken
17:25.31JeffMthat is also decent
17:25.33KaadmY*yet
17:25.51macsformeapparently Team 308 is also "The Walled Lake High School Robotics Team," but maybe we could peacefully coexist
17:26.31Flak18"team need a consensus"
17:26.40macsformeI think ten minutes are up... we just missed our first project deadline
17:26.53JeffMboth teapot and 308 are simple and memorable
17:27.18JeffMTeapot Project "The pressure is on!"
17:27.22blast007Team Ardor
17:27.47blast007http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ARDOR
17:28.07blast007arg, that domain it taken, really??
17:28.18macsformeTeam Pessimism would be more representative of this morning's discussion so far
17:28.33blast007Project Ardor isn't though
17:28.53JeffMlooks like arbor
17:32.03JeffMI'll buy you a VPS for a year if you pick a name :)
17:32.21macsformeI think Team 308 looks fairly safe as far as anyone else using it in a similar industry
17:32.44macsformeblast007, you good with that?
17:32.50blast007not really ;)
17:33.12blast007let me keep going through this list of positive words
17:33.23Ristovski"positive vibes"
17:33.33JeffMTeamChillax
17:33.44macsformelol
17:35.55macsformeI know someone who insisted on naming their golden retriever something that meant "guardian" or "watchman" or something like that... it didn't change the nature of the beast :)
17:35.58JeffMjoin a game named each of your choices. Fight for 10 min. winner is the project name.
17:37.39JeffMcentos, debian, or ubuntu?
17:38.43Ristovskidebian but unstable
17:39.32macsformeif we're not going to run services or any blog or forums right now, I think a vps would be better later on rather than now
17:39.38*** join/#bzflag Void7 (~Void7@205.157.147.198)
17:40.22blast007already have a server anyways
17:40.29macsformeTeam Cautious Optimism
17:41.02blast007Project Ageless
17:41.33blast007<PROTECTED>
17:42.41JeffMI just want you guys to have something. I don't care if it's not used for services or even anything when you are done.
17:43.03JeffMI was going to create you guys a reseller sub account so you could ALL have access to the vps controll pannel
17:43.34blast007DDoS protection is gonna need to be a thing though
17:43.42JeffMjust untill you figured out where ou want to put it for realsizes
17:43.49JeffMyeah it has some of that
17:44.00JeffMwhen you get big, you move off to whatever serves you best
17:45.14JeffMif you get DOSsed in your first month, you've really pissed someone off :)
17:46.10blast007it'd be the same one we already have
17:46.17macsformeI'm fine with Project Ageless, or Team Ageless, or several of the others already mentioned... let's just pick one
17:46.53JeffMregister the name and it's done
17:46.58blast007Project Ageless would be better than our current Project Aimless
17:47.44macsformelol
17:47.45Flak18maybe "Project Better BZ" would work
17:47.56JeffMFlak18: too specific
17:48.02JeffMwhat if they make another game in 5 years
17:48.17JeffMand what if they make something that doens't feel like bzflag
17:48.27JeffMthis is why I feel "proejct" is not a good thing for the team name
17:48.40JeffMit forces people into assumptions that may not be true
17:49.12macsformeblast007: I don't really want something too profound... we can have fun with it... this is just the initial phase, after all
17:49.35JeffMand it's NOT the game name, so domainness is not not a requirement (but would be nice).
17:49.40macsformeageless and ardor are a little formal
17:50.01JeffMTeamKickAss.com is avaiable... for $3800
17:50.28JeffMTeamKickAss.today is only 16$
17:50.49macsformeteamchillax.org/.com are avaiable, the channel is available, and github is available
17:51.02JeffMbuy it
17:51.04blast007let's just do that then
17:51.29macsforme##teamchillax
17:52.00blast007why not just one?
17:52.19JeffMtechincaly one means it's an org register4ed with freenode
17:52.31JeffMnot that they monitor that anymore
17:52.51macsformeit's just a little project for now... I don't really want to worry about dealing with freenode
17:53.28macsformenamecheap does teams for DNS management, right?
17:54.31JeffMyeah
17:54.33blast007yes, you can give access to specific things, like DNS management, to other namecheap users
17:55.31blast007I don't think we'd need a channel for the organization.  Here is probably fine for discussions, no?
17:55.54blast007when it gets time for the actual project work to begin, then a new channel for that *project* might make sense
17:56.31JeffMthat'll get you exposure to current bzflag people, and they'd have the understanding it was new. so that's probalby enough basic public exposure
17:58.04macsformeI'd like to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high, and have a clean break from stuff owned by Tim
17:58.36macsformeand yes, to keep it on-topic
17:58.40JeffMtechincaly he doesn't own the channel
17:59.54blast007well, more than we do
18:00.12JeffMdidn't he make you an org manager too?
18:00.25macsformehe's listed as the founder and is the only one with the F flag
18:00.31JeffMahh
18:01.47JeffMyou can always redirect this channel to yours :)
18:10.05JeffMHere is your logo https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/lfwkOlyk/ChillAxe.png
18:13.28blast007https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f7/74/df/f774df63e31ab082e091a918322ebf80.jpg
18:14.18JeffMmine is CCBySA :)
18:14.54JeffMNoun project FTW!
18:26.35*** join/#bzflag Void7 (~Void7@205.157.147.198)
18:52.24JeffMThere is also this one https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/kwK0TECh/noun_63758_cc.png
19:52.58*** join/#bzflag Flak18 (~Flak@2601:58b:c400:4681:65e8:dd06:351e:7cfe)
19:58.56*** join/#bzflag Shuist (~Shuist@ppp203-122-213-220.static.internode.on.net)
20:15.38*** join/#bzflag zuii (~cauchy@BC06BF93.catv.pool.telekom.hu)
22:11.47DelusionalI see not a project, but an “Operation”.. Operation Desert Respawn. ODeR
22:31.01*** join/#bzflag zuii (~cauchy@BC06BF93.catv.pool.telekom.hu)
22:43.14*** join/#bzflag a_meteorite (~a_meteori@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001)
23:50.19*** join/#bzflag Void7 (~Void7@205.157.147.198)

Generated by irclog2html.pl Modified by Tim Riker to work with infobot.