| 00:05.19 | GreenBlader | mhm |
| 00:12.59 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (uid48618@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vsieaajkojihelvb) |
| 00:13.15 | JeffM | there isn't really one, it's based on DR |
| 00:13.44 | JeffM | tick rate assumes the server has a game state, bzflag's server doesn't have a game state |
| 00:17.28 | JeffM | GreenBlader: popped into your head? or after you read that overwatch's tick rate is "too low" :) |
| 00:22.13 | GreenBlader | so its variable |
| 00:22.15 | GreenBlader | gross |
| 00:22.24 | JeffM | no, it doesn't have one |
| 00:22.34 | GreenBlader | didnt |
| 00:22.41 | JeffM | it doesn't even use the same concepts |
| 00:22.44 | GreenBlader | didn't read anything about Overwatch |
| 00:23.02 | GreenBlader | I've been playing a lot of Counter Strike so i got curious |
| 00:23.10 | JeffM | updates are sent out when a client determines that it's last sent velocity vector would deviate too much from it's current postion |
| 00:23.28 | JeffM | CS does networking in a totaly different way then BZ |
| 00:23.36 | GreenBlader | yeah, i figured |
| 00:23.45 | GreenBlader | Thats a creative way to do updates |
| 00:23.50 | JeffM | bzflag is a little bit older then CS |
| 00:23.56 | GreenBlader | Yeah, that too |
| 00:24.05 | JeffM | and was never designed for internet play |
| 00:24.50 | JeffM | but yes, it's all client side event based. The client decides when to send out postion updates, based on DR, events like shots, or falling, or a maxium time has elapsed. |
| 00:25.01 | GreenBlader | Seems like shots should hit and they don't so i wondered about tickrate |
| 00:25.05 | JeffM | the server just relays that to the other clients |
| 00:25.21 | JeffM | ohh that's because the shot hit is detected on the other client's side |
| 00:25.22 | JeffM | not yours |
| 00:25.32 | JeffM | and there is no lag compensation |
| 00:25.37 | GreenBlader | not very optimal for competitive play |
| 00:25.39 | JeffM | so they wern't there when they got the shot postion |
| 00:25.46 | JeffM | it's not very optimal for any kind of play |
| 00:25.50 | GreenBlader | lol |
| 00:25.54 | JeffM | it's a game from 1992 |
| 00:26.04 | JeffM | it was designed for LAN play |
| 00:26.17 | JeffM | where latency was lower then frame rate |
| 00:26.38 | GreenBlader | so people were supposed to set up their computers on the same network in 1992??? |
| 00:26.54 | JeffM | sure, what else would you do? |
| 00:27.04 | GreenBlader | valid point |
| 00:27.30 | JeffM | there was not widespread intenet useage |
| 00:27.38 | GreenBlader | Do you think it could ever be optimized and re-done? |
| 00:27.40 | JeffM | and not many people had SGI machines |
| 00:27.49 | JeffM | could be or will be? they are seperate questions |
| 00:27.57 | JeffM | I am 100% postive it COULD be re-done |
| 00:28.00 | GreenBlader | would |
| 00:28.09 | JeffM | so many modern games do it well, it can be done by bzflag too |
| 00:28.23 | JeffM | would is a much harder question and open to a lot of opinion :) |
| 00:28.43 | JeffM | that's more of a social/political question not a techincal one |
| 00:29.09 | JeffM | I have my opinions on it, others have there own. |
| 00:29.18 | GreenBlader | I guess i could see a lot of people opposing it because they've been playing for so long |
| 00:29.34 | JeffM | it's also a large task to do to the current codebase |
| 00:29.41 | JeffM | and would change how the game felt |
| 00:30.03 | JeffM | any method chosen would apply some different set of constraings to the networking. |
| 00:30.23 | JeffM | my opinion is that overall it would be better, if slightly different. |
| 00:31.27 | GreenBlader | I think it would be better, but people would definetly notice the change |
| 00:32.34 | JeffM | what is life if not change :) |
| 00:38.30 | GreenBlader | very true |
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| 11:55.26 | blast007 | any objections to me killing the 'Start Server' menu? |
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| 13:33.06 | macsforme | seems like a big change for a point release, especially while we're in release candidate status |
| 13:35.18 | blast007 | was thinking more for 2.4.8 |
| 13:35.45 | blast007 | right now I'm just working on finishing up plugin documentation and then I'm gonna look into that pause issue |
| 13:36.20 | blast007 | for 2.4.8 I'd also like to look into a PortableApps.com release |
| 13:37.11 | blast007 | pretty short list of games they have right now: http://portableapps.com/apps/games |
| 13:38.19 | blast007 | and not having a 'start server' menu would be nice, since it probably wouldn't include the server, just the client |
| 14:09.30 | macsforme | doing it for 2.4.8 sounds reasonable |
| 14:13.09 | macsforme | oh neat, they even ask you nicely to whitelist them in adblock :) |
| 14:17.49 | macsforme | instead of threatening you |
| 14:57.30 | *** join/#bzflag KaadmY (uid135503@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xncjwtrlkvfzncvq) |
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| 16:23.39 | blast007 | do we still want to bundle the pushStats plugin? |
| 16:43.27 | blast007 | I don't plan on running a stats collector ever |
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| 16:46.35 | RoscoePColtrain | Start Server is one of the most useless things in the game |
| 16:46.47 | KaadmY | yeah |
| 16:46.47 | RoscoePColtrain | the client and server should not share a UI |
| 16:47.03 | KaadmY | i don't think the start server has ever worked for me anyway |
| 16:47.21 | RoscoePColtrain | doesn't work on Mac.... probably the issue is the need to provide command-line arguments |
| 16:53.12 | *** join/#bzflag Void7 (~Void7@205.157.147.198) |
| 16:57.21 | blast007 | yeah, it's a "works sometimes on some platforms" at best. and when it fails, you get feedback equivilent to "it didn't work". |
| 17:10.28 | macsforme | RoscoePColtrain: it works on Mac for me, at least with the arguments I tried |
| 17:10.39 | RoscoePColtrain | from the menu? |
| 17:10.44 | macsforme | yes |
| 17:11.10 | RoscoePColtrain | maybe it's been too long since I looked, but seemed to be a "do nothing" command to me |
| 17:11.14 | macsforme | but I agree, it's not a great approach to begin with |
| 17:11.19 | RoscoePColtrain | at the very least, it's too confusing |
| 17:40.17 | *** join/#bzflag infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 17:40.18 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://wiki.bzflag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.4 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19186 |
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| 17:41.55 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://wiki.bzflag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.4 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19186 |
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| 17:44.20 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://wiki.bzflag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.4 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19186 |
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| 17:46.43 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://wiki.bzflag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.4 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19186 |
| 17:46.43 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 18:02.39 | BulletCatcher | The pushstats plugin exists to support vaporware, so I see no reason to keep it. |
| 18:02.43 | BulletCatcher | We can resurrect it easily enough if an actual need for it arises again. |
| 18:09.28 | BulletCatcher | Start Server seems to mostly work. |
| 18:09.31 | BulletCatcher | Rather than just abandon it, I'd like to see constructive comments and specific bug reports and have the opportunity to make it better. |
| 18:10.34 | BulletCatcher | For example, it would help if local servers would always sort to the top of the server list. |
| 18:12.59 | *** join/#bzflag Leppp (~Leppp@ip70-181-150-130.sd.sd.cox.net) |
| 18:14.54 | blast007 | that'd be a loose definition of "mostly" |
| 18:15.37 | BulletCatcher | Does it work for you, blast007? |
| 18:15.43 | blast007 | sometimes |
| 18:16.01 | KaadmY | that is a rather loose answer for a dev ;) |
| 18:16.03 | blast007 | how do you stop the server? how do you know what it fails to start? |
| 18:16.14 | blast007 | know why* |
| 18:16.23 | KaadmY | imo the start server menu is useless |
| 18:16.29 | KaadmY | i don't think anyone actually uses it |
| 18:16.48 | KaadmY | it rarely works 100% correctly anyway, and it's not very intuitive for those that actually use it |
| 18:16.56 | macsforme | when you first download the game it is a handy way to try it out |
| 18:17.42 | *** join/#bzflag infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 18:17.42 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://wiki.bzflag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.4 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19186 |
| 18:17.42 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 18:17.46 | KaadmY | with a couple solo bots? |
| 18:19.06 | BulletCatcher | bzfs is also difficult to use for those who don't know what they're doing. |
| 18:19.27 | blast007 | and good documentation can't solve that? |
| 18:19.38 | KaadmY | i assume a server frontend would be useful here |
| 18:19.48 | KaadmY | could even be a python script |
| 18:19.57 | KaadmY | wonders if he can make a bzfs launcher |
| 18:20.09 | BulletCatcher | Good documentation could also help Start Server. |
| 18:20.09 | Void7 | forces KaadmY to make a bzfs launcher |
| 18:20.28 | Leppp | i figured out bzfs with the documentation available now, it comes down to being patient and trying to learn it |
| 18:20.37 | KaadmY | hands a boot tovoi |
| 18:20.42 | KaadmY | to Void7* :( |
| 18:20.51 | Void7 | what's a tovoi?! |
| 18:20.52 | blast007 | http://static.bzexcess.com/misc_screenshots/maemo_startbzfs.png |
| 18:21.44 | KaadmY | nice blast007 |
| 18:21.45 | the_map | oooh, nice |
| 18:21.53 | KaadmY | i think i've seen that before on the forums a while back |
| 18:21.56 | KaadmY | forgot about it |
| 18:21.58 | blast007 | https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/tree/2.99/tools/BZFSLauncher |
| 18:22.00 | blast007 | https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/tree/2.99/tools/StartBZFS |
| 18:22.05 | KaadmY | 2.99 again? |
| 18:22.18 | KaadmY | does it still work in 2.4.5? |
| 18:22.19 | blast007 | KaadmY: and? |
| 18:22.26 | blast007 | it might |
| 18:22.41 | blast007 | if not, trivial to make work |
| 18:22.48 | blast007 | it's just building a command line |
| 18:22.57 | KaadmY | yeah |
| 18:24.39 | BulletCatcher | Some good ideas were implemented in 2.99 and are available to anyone willing and able to port them into a current branch. |
| 18:25.40 | KaadmY | btw made this yesterday https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/t9WeYb8A/bip_level_rendering.png |
| 18:25.55 | Void7 | how to host a server: https://lut.im/ZQSHRo03Kb/sD7B0Femll00S25D.png |
| 18:26.31 | Void7 | oops, "BZFlag" instead of "BZFS" |
| 18:27.06 | blast007 | Void7: http://static.bzexcess.com/bzflag_design_diagram.jpg |
| 18:27.18 | KaadmY | wtf blast007 |
| 18:29.06 | the_map | you missed a line |
| 18:29.18 | the_map | oh wait, no, it's there |
| 18:29.40 | KaadmY | :] |
| 18:30.15 | the_map | Void7: there are better tools than MS paint :P |
| 18:31.33 | KaadmY | like? |
| 18:31.35 | KaadmY | GIMP? |
| 18:32.01 | Void7 | https://lut.im/yt7aIPA59J/iM5EIKKLlKP1pVSO.png |
| 18:32.12 | KaadmY | ....... |
| 18:32.23 | KaadmY | hands Void7 a running chainsaw, blade first |
| 18:32.38 | the_map | Void7: now try something besides the pencil |
| 18:33.11 | blast007 | so anyway :P |
| 18:33.22 | blast007 | I still think the Start Server menu should die |
| 18:33.23 | the_map | *ahem*...right |
| 18:33.29 | the_map | yeah |
| 18:34.07 | BulletCatcher | Fix it, don't kill it, blast007. |
| 18:34.10 | blast007 | I think it provides too little benefit and causes more problems than anything. Makes the game look bad when it fails half the time. |
| 18:34.34 | the_map | do many people try to use it? |
| 18:34.46 | blast007 | and how, exactly, do you propose we do that? Make it dump output to the chat panel which is behind the menu background? |
| 18:34.47 | KaadmY | i "tried" |
| 18:34.49 | KaadmY | failed |
| 18:34.58 | Void7 | KaadmY: I LOVE CHAINSAWS :D https://lut.im/9IPY35Ifha/toOv0A2reo6laLPo.png |
| 18:35.12 | KaadmY | gags |
| 18:35.20 | blast007 | errors which won't do much to help them fix it because most errors would require tweaking stuff on the command line to solve |
| 18:35.21 | Void7 | I did not add the peppers. The chainsaw did that. |
| 18:35.58 | blast007 | it's going to take far more effort to fix this niche feature than it would be to remove it and write up good documentation |
| 18:36.00 | the_map | I know what we should do: embed a command line into the bzflag start server menu |
| 18:36.38 | Void7 | why does my bzflag work not i use this and it crash 'bzfs -f N -f N -f N -f N{20} -f GM{2000000000}' |
| 18:37.14 | the_map | if the start server ability option is removed from the client, will windows users be reasonably able to start servers? last I knew, they don't have a (real) command line yet |
| 18:37.19 | BulletCatcher | You need a few more petabytes of RAM for that to work, Void7. |
| 18:37.22 | Void7 | it goes crishity crash it think go boom i no why plz halp i an no to computer help |
| 18:37.27 | blast007 | Void7: it used to be quite common for people to do something like '+f good{50}' and ask why they couldn't spawn |
| 18:37.42 | blast007 | they didn't realize that added 50 of *every* good flag, not just 50 flags |
| 18:37.51 | KaadmY | ok |
| 18:37.53 | KaadmY | wow |
| 18:38.07 | KaadmY | that does seem a bit unintuitive |
| 18:38.16 | KaadmY | but makes sense from a programming point of view |
| 18:38.35 | blast007 | (and then our protocol tries to send all the flags at the same time, which fills out the send queue for that player, and kills their connection without notifying them, so they just see the world and can't spawn) |
| 18:38.46 | blast007 | fills up* |
| 18:39.01 | BulletCatcher | If you used '+f good{3}', which 3 of the good flags would it use? |
| 18:39.10 | blast007 | BulletCatcher: 3 of each |
| 18:39.45 | BulletCatcher | Yes, that's the way it does work, but apparently some people "intuitively" think there should only be 3 flags. |
| 18:40.29 | blast007 | and we have -f which only affects randomly spawned flags via -s and +s |
| 18:41.38 | BulletCatcher | Basically, it all sucks, and I remain unconvinced that Start Server sucks any more than any other sucky part of the game. |
| 18:42.32 | the_map | would windows users be able to start servers without this in-game menu? |
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| 18:42.42 | blast007 | the_map: yes |
| 18:43.14 | blast007 | BulletCatcher: who is going to put in the effort to fix it? |
| 18:43.41 | blast007 | needs to be made to work reliably on all platforms we support |
| 18:48.24 | BulletCatcher | I can help with reported bugs on Linux systems, but I no longer have a Mac development environment. |
| 18:48.26 | BulletCatcher | Windows remains Right Out for me. |
| 18:49.37 | macsforme | <BulletCatcher> Basically, it all sucks, and I remain unconvinced that Start Server sucks any more than any other sucky part of the game... awesome quote |
| 18:49.45 | BulletCatcher | :-) |
| 18:50.18 | BulletCatcher | It's the game I choose to play. |
| 18:51.13 | KaadmY | and callsign tab completion |
| 18:51.15 | KaadmY | wait nvm |
| 18:51.20 | macsforme | Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? |
| 18:51.26 | macsforme | Because I choose to. |
| 18:52.49 | KaadmY | there is nick tabcompletion |
| 18:52.54 | KaadmY | but case sensitive |
| 18:52.59 | the_map | F2 also does it |
| 18:53.24 | blast007 | works for (some?) commands too |
| 18:53.31 | the_map | lol |
| 18:54.12 | the_map | bzflag allowed me to set alt-f4 as a message send binding, then when I tried it bzflag closed |
| 18:54.37 | Void7 | :-P |
| 18:55.48 | BulletCatcher | Unless the presence or absence of Start Server will make a difference in our development plans, I see no reason to remove it now. |
| 18:55.49 | BulletCatcher | I would be willing to revisit this when bzfs is easier to use by some other means. |
| 18:56.40 | blast007 | I said it does affect my development plans... |
| 18:56.48 | BulletCatcher | How? |
| 18:57.07 | blast007 | by not having a server bundled |
| 18:58.43 | blast007 | and bzfs is optional in debian and windows already |
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| 18:59.51 | BulletCatcher | It seems like we should be able to disable the Start Server menu item when bzfs isn't present. |
| 19:00.31 | BulletCatcher | (Or only enable it when it is known to be present.) |
| 19:03.04 | BulletCatcher | Would a --disable-server configure option be useful? |
| 19:03.49 | *** join/#bzflag tw1sted (~tw1sted@104.236.87.240) |
| 19:04.00 | BulletCatcher | Presumably it would imply --disable-plugins . |
| 19:12.31 | *** join/#bzflag [Gort] (~gort@unaffiliated/gort/x-9231432) |
| 19:20.52 | blast007 | probably |
| 19:42.55 | RoscoePColtrain | 12:09 BulletCatcher: Rather than just abandon it, I'd like to see constructive comments and specific bug reports and have the opportunity to make it better. |
| 19:43.08 | RoscoePColtrain | start server is counter intuitive in a client GUI |
| 19:43.35 | RoscoePColtrain | if you want a GUI at all, a separate server GUI that allowed dynamic configuration of all (!!!) the server options would be better |
| 19:50.23 | BulletCatcher | It is only your understanding of the underlying implementation (client and server are independent) that leads *your* intuition to conclude that they need independent controls. |
| 19:50.24 | BulletCatcher | Novices just want to play "the game" without the distraction of BZFlag's myriad configuration options. |
| 19:50.42 | RoscoePColtrain | no I disagree |
| 19:51.04 | RoscoePColtrain | I think the first time I brought it up, I clicked "Start Server" and had no inclination that it did anything |
| 19:51.36 | RoscoePColtrain | if the game is designed for stand-alone play, then the server should be included in the client and always running |
| 19:51.50 | RoscoePColtrain | but it isn't; it is and has always been a network game |
| 19:53.28 | RoscoePColtrain | as to "my" intuition... good design follows reality. Mixing the client and server leads to confusion, both in code and in UI |
| 19:54.01 | RoscoePColtrain | I have the scars to prove it |
| 19:54.04 | BulletCatcher | It has been a very long time since BZFlag has been any one thing. |
| 19:54.05 | BulletCatcher | These days it is many things to many people. |
| 19:54.40 | RoscoePColtrain | that's an angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin argument |
| 19:56.20 | *** join/#bzflag Shuist (~Shuist@ppp203-122-213-220.static.internode.on.net) |
| 19:56.32 | BulletCatcher | For almost any aspect of BZFlag you can point to and claim "that's what BZFlag is", I can point to something else contradictory. |
| 19:56.49 | BulletCatcher | Just like religion. |
| 19:57.09 | RoscoePColtrain | you are definitely making a religious argument |
| 19:57.22 | RoscoePColtrain | but without any substantiation |
| 19:58.14 | RoscoePColtrain | let's try a specific |
| 19:58.41 | RoscoePColtrain | BZFlag is a networked, client-server, multiplayer first-person-shooter game |
| 19:59.44 | BulletCatcher | It is also a standalone single-player game that works over the loopback network. |
| 20:00.20 | RoscoePColtrain | single-player is pointless. You can have computer players, but it's still multi-player |
| 20:00.35 | RoscoePColtrain | and whether loopback or internet, it's still a network |
| 20:00.59 | the_map | RoscoePColtrain: actually, single player isn't pointless |
| 20:01.08 | the_map | tanx's pinball servers were a lot of fun |
| 20:01.15 | RoscoePColtrain | whether people are sophisticated enough to understand the nuances of networking or not, it is still networked in the code |
| 20:01.32 | RoscoePColtrain | the_map: I mean, playing with just 1 player is pointless |
| 20:01.44 | the_map | I played the pinball servers alone a lot |
| 20:01.47 | RoscoePColtrain | and I will accept that the pinball may be fun; I haven't played it |
| 20:02.18 | RoscoePColtrain | the more correct definition of single player is where client and server are bundled |
| 20:02.22 | RoscoePColtrain | this is not that |
| 20:02.50 | RoscoePColtrain | or more precisely, where there is no client/server, just the game |
| 20:03.32 | RoscoePColtrain | my point is that the code for the client is distinct from the server |
| 20:03.45 | RoscoePColtrain | they communicate via a documented API |
| 20:04.10 | RoscoePColtrain | that separation is real, and pretending like it isn't is confusing |
| 20:05.00 | RoscoePColtrain | These very users that we are theorizing about lack the sophistication to understand what they did when the clicked "Start Server" |
| 20:05.31 | RoscoePColtrain | IF we want to keep it, then "Start Server" needs to launch bzfs and immediately launch the client. When the client quits, the server quits |
| 20:06.23 | RoscoePColtrain | so that the illusion of stand-alone is complete |
| 20:22.37 | *** join/#bzflag Leppp (~Leppp@ip70-181-150-130.sd.sd.cox.net) |
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| 21:30.14 | BulletCatcher | You would be correct if single-player mode were the only use for Start Server. |
| 21:30.14 | BulletCatcher | It isn't. |
| 21:41.32 | BulletCatcher | And I am still most interested in constructive suggestions coupled with willingness to implement them. |
| 21:41.33 | BulletCatcher | "Remove X because Y would be better" but then Y doesn't get done, is not the kind of change that is going to help. |
| 21:50.01 | RoscoePColtrain | OK, how about this: it is a long standing deficiency that "Start Server" lacks a "Stop Server" equivalent |
| 21:54.21 | BulletCatcher | Fair enough. |
| 21:54.47 | RoscoePColtrain | there is no (other) interaction between the GUI and the started server |
| 21:57.41 | RoscoePColtrain | there is no option for robot players in the started server |
| 21:58.55 | BulletCatcher | The client does solo bots. |
| 21:58.56 | RoscoePColtrain | but to your other point ... the question remains, is X without Y good enough to keep |
| 22:00.24 | RoscoePColtrain | there is no GUI option for bots |
| 22:01.06 | RoscoePColtrain | and if the argument is that starting the server from the GUI is for people who aren't sophisticated enough to run it from the command line |
| 22:01.13 | RoscoePColtrain | then it should also hold for bots |
| 22:01.40 | RoscoePColtrain | it's a big bag of wart on the side to support LAN parties |
| 22:01.43 | RoscoePColtrain | for noobs |
| 22:02.42 | RoscoePColtrain | however, I will say that the server does stop when I quit the client (at least, on MacOS |
| 22:05.35 | BulletCatcher | The default seems to be for the server to quit when the last player leaves. |
| 22:07.43 | BulletCatcher | A GUI option to control solo bots would be a reasonable enhancement. |
| 22:09.39 | KaadmY | ie. changeable solo bot skill. the skills could be "afkbotlike", "bzbotlike", "nooblike", "botlike" |
| 22:10.16 | BulletCatcher | Multiple levels of bot skill would be an interesting new feature. |
| 22:10.37 | blast007 | yes, because we need to make it *easier* for people to joins bots to servers.... |
| 22:11.01 | RoscoePColtrain | bots should only be a server-side feature |
| 22:11.41 | BulletCatcher | Server operators who don't want bots are free to use -disableBots. |
| 22:12.10 | RoscoePColtrain | would it not make more sense for server operators who want bots to explicitly enable them? |
| 22:12.10 | BulletCatcher | There's that wishful "should" again. |
| 22:13.04 | RoscoePColtrain | all changes need to start with a requirement |
| 22:13.25 | RoscoePColtrain | but we have to agree to the requirement :) |
| 22:15.00 | BulletCatcher | One of the most important current requirements for BZFlag is that it not change too much, too quickly. |
| 22:15.01 | BulletCatcher | No, I don't have a metric for those scales. |
| 22:16.31 | RoscoePColtrain | yes, I remember the SoC GUI overhaul that had to be scrapped |
| 22:18.04 | blast007 | the GUI overhaul wasn't specifically scrapped |
| 22:18.06 | blast007 | 2.99.x was |
| 22:18.13 | RoscoePColtrain | fair enough |
| 22:18.18 | BulletCatcher | I haven't looked to see how much effort would be needed to port that GUI change to 2.4. |
| 22:18.26 | RoscoePColtrain | it had some serious issues |
| 22:18.50 | blast007 | and wasn't the GUI changes just to the server list? |
| 22:19.01 | BulletCatcher | That's what I recall. |
| 22:19.19 | RoscoePColtrain | that was the major bit (at least, the SoC part) |
| 22:19.32 | RoscoePColtrain | but I thought the tabs also were revamped some |
| 22:20.23 | BulletCatcher | Do you mean the in-game tabs? |
| 22:20.24 | BulletCatcher | IIRC, there were new tabs on the server list. |
| 22:20.50 | RoscoePColtrain | I think there were tabs on whatever screen was first |
| 22:20.58 | RoscoePColtrain | did it include IRC? |
| 22:21.19 | blast007 | there was a custom protocol global chat that used lua, iirc |
| 22:21.31 | RoscoePColtrain | that sounds right |
| 22:21.52 | blast007 | and not plain lua, think it was a modified version of lua |
| 22:22.02 | RoscoePColtrain | ugh |
| 22:27.14 | KaadmY | heh |
| 22:27.27 | KaadmY | i'm using bzflag 2.4.5 git, and it still tells me to upgrade to 2.4.4 :D |
| 22:30.41 | blast007 | KaadmY: don't worry, nobody reads the MOTD that we hide behind the menu background anyway |
| 22:31.14 | KaadmY | yeah :| |
| 22:39.17 | the_map | would using /superkill shut down the server, if started from the gui? |
| 22:39.21 | the_map | s/gui/client |
| 22:42.58 | blast007 | you don't have admin rights on it |
| 22:43.25 | the_map | ...why don't you have admin rights on a server you start? |
| 22:43.48 | blast007 | not from the GUI |
| 22:43.54 | blast007 | from the game client |
| 22:44.18 | the_map | what? |
| 22:44.20 | blast007 | it doesn't set a password, it doesn't use global auth |
| 22:44.25 | the_map | oh |
| 22:44.27 | blast007 | so no extra permissions |
| 23:18.24 | blast007 | hmm, okay, I guess the client doesn't even try to join solo bots if the server has them disabled |
| 23:18.49 | blast007 | in the past it used to cause a wave of join/quits |
| 23:24.04 | BulletCatcher | That was one of the featured changes in 2.4.2. |
| 23:33.51 | *** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (~androirc@211.219.200.146.dyn.plus.net) |
| 23:51.21 | *** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (~androirc@211.219.200.146.dyn.plus.net) |
