| 00:08.46 | rodent_ | . |
| 00:15.25 | the_map | lol rodent |
| 00:16.29 | rodent_ | too many cats |
| 00:18.51 | Void7 | turns into a cat an haunts rodent_ |
| 00:18.55 | Void7 | and * |
| 00:19.45 | rodent_ | ever see a cat catch a squirrel? no, you have not ;) |
| 00:45.22 | macsforme | bizarrefish: doing hit detection on the shooter's side, with high lag, would make tanks blow up when from their perspective it was a clean miss |
| 00:48.23 | macsforme | with any attempt to compensate for lag, something has to give... I have yet to hear of an ideal solution, although plenty of bashing on the existing method |
| 00:49.29 | JeffM | go play overwatch, it seems to work ;) |
| 00:53.20 | macsforme | as I see it, to compensate for lag, you have to do it 1) on the shooter's side (extrapolate enemy tank movements forward to predict where they might be), 2) on the target's side (rewind history when you get shot info to see if it hit you, then advance it forward from where it was actually fired), or 3) some mixture of both (like having the server's perspective be the authoritative one, and adjust on both clients) |
| 00:54.51 | macsforme | JeffM: that's hardly an argument someone can respond to :P |
| 00:55.31 | JeffM | why? because they are against spending 40$ |
| 00:55.49 | JeffM | the point is a LOT of games do it better than bzflag, so it ain't a hard problem. |
| 00:56.14 | macsforme | no, because I shouldn't have to go and play a game to understand what specific method you are proposing |
| 00:56.22 | macsforme | a lot of games are different from bzflag |
| 00:56.29 | JeffM | normal halflife stuff |
| 00:56.43 | JeffM | it's kinda the expected behavor |
| 00:57.14 | JeffM | it's your #3 that does #2 |
| 00:58.17 | JeffM | and as far as networking is concerend, bzflag is a FPS |
| 00:58.39 | macsforme | the halflife model works great for instant-hit weapons... if you plan to apply that to our shells, which take up to several seconds to arrive, I would love to hear how |
| 00:58.52 | JeffM | the same way they do RPGs |
| 00:59.05 | JeffM | or granades |
| 00:59.41 | JeffM | many quake matches are played with rockets only, they have the properties you are looking for |
| 00:59.55 | JeffM | that source is available |
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| 01:02.31 | macsforme | why is your solution always to refer to an example game? I shouldn't have to peruse an engine's source code to understand what you are proposing |
| 01:03.00 | JeffM | you assume i know the specifics of every line of code, I simply know it exists |
| 01:03.01 | JeffM | I don't want to write it |
| 01:03.25 | JeffM | why is your solution always to write your own thing from scratch? |
| 01:03.53 | macsforme | understanding the general mechanics is different from understanding every line of code |
| 01:04.22 | JeffM | sure |
| 01:04.22 | macsforme | I don't need to write it from scratch, but I want to understand how it works because it *will* affect gameplay |
| 01:04.28 | macsforme | some of us, you know, actually play the game |
| 01:06.24 | JeffM | but if I'm not going to write it, I don't need to know ether thing ;) that's the job of the person who's going to do the low level coding |
| 01:06.24 | JeffM | then go resarch it, and you can use code to research |
| 01:06.24 | JeffM | you say it only works for instant hit, so you seem to know the specifics of it, but don't know the specifics of all of it |
| 01:06.24 | JeffM | I'm just saying it exists, that's it |
| 01:06.24 | JeffM | and ignoring that it exists is silly |
| 01:07.05 | JeffM | and you'd be suprised how many professional developers don't play the game they like, they are sick of it ;) |
| 01:07.33 | JeffM | but as always, feel free to ignore my silly comments and continue on your path. |
| 01:08.23 | macsforme | I assume you are referring to this in reference to the half life engine: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Latency_Compensating_Methods_in_Client/Server_In-game_Protocol_Design_and_Optimization |
| 01:09.18 | JeffM | honestly I'm going from memory, I've never been able to find the exact article I read long ago that had RPG solutins. That article has some of the info |
| 01:11.02 | JeffM | I think it got refactored out because it was a minor part |
| 01:11.02 | JeffM | and I remember thinking "nooooo that's the part I care about!!" :) |
| 01:11.02 | macsforme | so yes, rewinding the state when shot updates come in is great for instant-hit weapons (you might just get killed after you duck around a wall)... I don't see how that helps us |
| 01:12.36 | JeffM | there must be ways to do it for non instant hit, because rocket arena quake was hella popular and did not have bzflag problems. |
| 01:13.05 | JeffM | and it can't be a major difference, because it was part of the same game. |
| 01:26.19 | macsforme | rockets generally seem to have a wide area of damage... I don't know if that allows them to use tricks or adjustments that work well only when there's splash damage |
| 01:30.17 | macsforme | regardless, to me it seems like a mathematical fact... if shot info comes in with a delay, and you want to "compensate" for the delay, you have to move stuff forward or backward in time or speed it up |
| 01:30.44 | JeffM | sure, you have to do something to make it feel fair |
| 01:30.58 | JeffM | I don't htink anyone argues that |
| 01:36.11 | macsforme | http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/24877/lag-compensation-of-projectile-shooting-game |
| 01:36.39 | macsforme | that's one person who claims that the source engine from valve doesn't compensate for rocket shots |
| 01:38.19 | JeffM | well if it's on stack exchange..... |
| 01:38.51 | macsforme | ... then it must be true, because if it's on the internet, it's true! |
| 01:39.55 | macsforme | and I can't come up with much else with a web search... this wonderful method of yours is being quite elusive |
| 01:40.10 | JeffM | hence why I sugested looking at sources ;) |
| 01:51.21 | macsforme | so you suggest that there's a lag compensation method that would work for us, but you can't explain the basic concept, can't refer to any documentation on the concept, and tell me to go dig through source code to understand it? |
| 01:51.41 | JeffM | I simply sugest that other games are fun, so they must be doing something |
| 01:51.54 | JeffM | but I can understand your misunderstanding of that |
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| 02:00.24 | macsforme | so when are we going to try that demo of yours? :) |
| 02:00.37 | JeffM | I've been working on fixing some of the reported issues |
| 02:00.44 | JeffM | so when those are done |
| 02:01.08 | JeffM | I'm adding a non instant hit shot to test the exact things you are worried about ;) |
| 02:01.24 | macsforme | I will be sure to join from a laggy connection |
| 02:01.33 | JeffM | I belive I got headless working, |
| 02:01.38 | JeffM | these are why I want to test things |
| 02:02.06 | JeffM | and in AZ I don't think you have anything bug laggy connections ;) Frontier is SUCH a good ISP. |
| 02:04.45 | macsforme | at least our highways are decent :P |
| 02:04.59 | JeffM | my experience begs to differ |
| 02:05.03 | JeffM | but then I mostly did the 40 |
| 02:05.14 | JeffM | the 210 is crap, that I agree on |
| 02:05.34 | JeffM | had to drive to buckey an back in one day |
| 02:05.45 | JeffM | 780 miles :( |
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| 17:17.40 | JeffM | what's the coolest map anyone's ever thought of? |
| 17:18.38 | KaadmY | this? http://i.imgur.com/3KUQnSa.jpg |
| 17:18.40 | KaadmY | >:} |
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| 17:25.02 | JeffM | not exactly a map :) |
| 17:25.49 | KaadmY | yeeeeah :D |
| 17:25.56 | KaadmY | i'm redrawing that with color btw |
| 17:26.05 | KaadmY | for a wallpaper ;) |
| 17:43.09 | KaadmY | here: https://voat.co/v/Doom/comments/1066000 |
| 18:52.33 | blast007 | JeffM: thought of, or made? |
| 18:52.54 | blast007 | Earthling was neat, but was for 2.99.x |
| 18:53.26 | blast007 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWZuJP93MaI by SpazzyMcGee |
| 18:53.33 | blast007 | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPOWP3z-BNE |
| 18:54.25 | JeffM | Ether or, but thought of and not possible interestes me most |
| 18:55.40 | KaadmY | wow |
| 18:55.44 | KaadmY | that map was ~6 years ago |
| 18:56.27 | allejo | I wish Earthling would have worked for 2.4 |
| 18:56.43 | blast007 | 2.6's goals should make it work |
| 18:56.55 | blast007 | or at least most of it |
| 18:57.22 | blast007 | I'd check what the goals are, but I haven't upgraded the wiki yet ;) |
| 18:57.37 | allejo | ~lart blast007 |
| 18:57.37 | infobot | drops a humongous exploding nuke on blast007 |
| 18:58.44 | Void7 | ~lart allejo |
| 18:58.44 | infobot | sends a legion of lawyers after allejo's head |
| 18:58.46 | KaadmY | ~lart Kaelten |
| 18:58.46 | infobot | blames Kaelten for all the evil in the world |
| 18:58.50 | KaadmY | damnit |
| 18:58.50 | Void7 | ~lart KaadmY |
| 18:58.50 | infobot | beats KaadmY severely about the head and shoulders with a rubber chicken |
| 18:58.53 | KaadmY | !lart KaadmY |
| 18:59.01 | KaadmY | wrong person, sorry about that |
| 18:59.06 | Void7 | ~lart KaadmY |
| 18:59.06 | infobot | installs PocketPC on KaadmY's PDA |
| 19:18.25 | zuii | how can i use bzflag in window mode? i'd like to debug but my mouse stucked in the window(linux,sdl2,qtcreator) how do you debug if u have breakpoints etc? |
| 19:19.00 | zuii | oh okay |
| 19:19.04 | zuii | confine mouse settings |
| 19:28.43 | JeffM | blast007: do you have an OBJ dump of that map? |
| 19:28.58 | blast007 | nope |
| 19:29.08 | JeffM | is it lost to antiquity? |
| 19:29.09 | blast007 | it might not exist anywhere anymore |
| 19:29.14 | JeffM | sad |
| 19:29.30 | blast007 | SpazzyMcGee might still have it |
| 19:29.44 | blast007 | I don't think it was ever released since 3.0 didn't come out |
| 19:30.37 | JeffM | my test maps are lame, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EP-ty5nEas |
| 19:31.30 | allejo | could save one of Louman's maps as an obj |
| 19:34.27 | JeffM | it'd be interesting to see |
| 19:34.58 | allejo | what's the command again? I'd look at the wiki but blast007 hasn't updated it... |
| 19:35.18 | blast007 | /saveworld -o something.obj I think |
| 19:36.28 | allejo | oh woah. mac renders previews for .obj files now |
| 19:36.43 | JeffM | do you have photoshop installed? |
| 19:36.57 | allejo | yea |
| 19:37.04 | allejo | oh is that why? |
| 19:37.07 | JeffM | yeah |
| 19:37.10 | allejo | ohhh neat |
| 19:37.12 | JeffM | it reads 3d formats |
| 19:37.21 | JeffM | it can even 3d print |
| 19:38.03 | allejo | :o |
| 19:38.34 | JeffM | it was mainly added so you could add 3d renders of objects to pictures |
| 19:38.49 | JeffM | and keep them as objects until final export |
| 19:38.58 | allejo | woah that's awesome |
| 19:39.07 | allejo | I so wanna take advantage of this now |
| 19:39.07 | JeffM | but for some reason they added printing too |
| 19:39.39 | JeffM | I think it'll do texture painting too |
| 19:40.20 | allejo | now i just need a 3d printer |
| 19:40.31 | JeffM | they are cheap |
| 19:40.40 | JeffM | if you are ok with FDM |
| 19:40.55 | allejo | http://expirebox.com/download/35fb74cb57d012128e65c8261ef79512.html here's an obj of louman's spacestation. it crashes wings 3d so not sure if it failed saving |
| 19:41.26 | allejo | googles printers |
| 19:41.42 | JeffM | are you ok building your own from a kit? |
| 19:42.11 | allejo | what does a kit entail? |
| 19:42.13 | JeffM | https://www.3dprintersonlinestore.com/slimbot-3d-printer-kit |
| 19:42.19 | JeffM | screwing and pluging |
| 19:42.27 | JeffM | if not, get a printrbot simple |
| 19:42.46 | JeffM | https://printrbot.com/shop/assembled-simple-metal/ |
| 19:43.07 | allejo | do you have one? |
| 19:43.36 | JeffM | I have an older simple at home |
| 19:43.45 | JeffM | and 4 printers at work |
| 19:43.56 | JeffM | one is next to my desk |
| 19:44.35 | allejo | lucky :( |
| 19:44.51 | JeffM | corproate office provided them |
| 19:44.58 | JeffM | we got bought by a company that makes them |
| 19:45.06 | allejo | i don't even know what I'd print |
| 19:45.15 | JeffM | that's the core problem with having them |
| 19:45.21 | JeffM | how many small plastic things do you need? |
| 19:45.21 | allejo | oh well that's convenient |
| 19:45.32 | JeffM | the 3 scanners are cooler |
| 19:45.39 | JeffM | that file opens fine in 3d builder |
| 19:46.23 | allejo | i know, i feel like I'd print one thing and then get bored |
| 19:46.36 | allejo | and cool, probably just wings 3d being dumb |
| 19:46.38 | JeffM | mostly I printed things to make my printer better |
| 19:46.50 | JeffM | we print tool block examples at work |
| 19:46.53 | JeffM | and spaceships |
| 19:47.01 | allejo | spaceships! |
| 19:47.17 | JeffM | The Rocinante |
| 19:48.06 | allejo | make a death star! |
| 19:48.32 | JeffM | made a thermal detinator |
| 19:49.07 | allejo | life size? |
| 19:49.17 | JeffM | yeah, like a tennis ball |
| 19:49.28 | JeffM | wonders where it went |
| 19:50.07 | allejo | omg |
| 19:53.30 | JeffM | https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/dgorRFI4/IMG_1288.JPG |
| 19:54.28 | allejo | what are those? |
| 19:54.41 | JeffM | 3d printed CNC tool block samples we use for training |
| 19:55.51 | allejo | oh they looked like the square blocks I tried to put in circular holes when I was a kit |
| 19:55.52 | allejo | kid* |
| 19:56.11 | JeffM | yeah, we only have plastic in primary colors :) |
| 19:56.33 | JeffM | one of the printers will print in 3 colors at the same time |
| 19:58.08 | blast007 | at a maker faire, someone had an extruder that took multiple filaments and melted them together to make different colors |
| 19:58.23 | blast007 | didn't get to see it in action though |
| 19:58.38 | JeffM | yeah there are a couple of those |
| 19:58.51 | JeffM | there are advantages and disadvangates of the different methods |
| 19:59.16 | JeffM | some also use like an inkjet cartidge to add die to white fillament as it's melting |
| 19:59.21 | JeffM | dye |
| 19:59.38 | blast007 | there's also a couple low cost CNC machines that can also be used for other stuff (3D printing, laser etching, etc) http://www.vicious1.com/specifications/ http://www.instructables.com/id/Raspberry-Pi-CNC-Machine/?ALLSTEPS |
| 19:59.58 | JeffM | there are 3-4-5-6 head kraken heads that take multiples into the same tip |
| 20:00.17 | JeffM | yeah printers, ploters, laser cutters, are all just 3 axis milling machines |
| 20:00.33 | JeffM | it's just what you put on the pointy bit :) |
| 20:00.40 | blast007 | :) |
| 20:01.16 | JeffM | one of the cube pros we were sent has 3 seperate heads. you get less bleed over with seperate heads, and you can use different materials |
| 20:01.35 | JeffM | single head setups mean everyone has to use the same temperature |
| 20:01.44 | JeffM | so you can't really do support material |
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| 22:46.03 | JeffM | allejo: do you have the images that go with that obj file? |
| 22:48.18 | allejo | they're hosted on trepan.bzflag.bz or whatever his images location is at |
| 22:48.46 | JeffM | das es forboden |
| 22:48.54 | JeffM | at least from where I am |
| 22:49.34 | JeffM | I can use others |
| 22:49.43 | JeffM | and I probably have better planets with shaders |
| 22:52.16 | allejo | you probably need to get them individually |
| 22:56.46 | blast007 | http://images.bzflag.org/bz_legacy/louman/ they in here? |
| 23:00.38 | JeffM | dosn't look like it |
| 23:03.02 | allejo | give me a second, i can try finding the links |
| 23:03.20 | JeffM | it's ok, I was just curious if you had them |
| 23:05.40 | allejo | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:05.40 | allejo | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:05.40 | allejo | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:05.40 | allejo | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:05.40 | allejo | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:06.25 | JeffM | it must be my conneciton here, its all forbiden |
| 23:06.28 | JeffM | I'll try at home |
| 23:08.02 | allejo | huh, same here actually |
| 23:08.52 | allejo | brlcad, you still maintain that domain? |
| 23:09.45 | JeffM | it'll be best to remake the materials, that way they get normal maps and stuff |
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| 23:13.20 | allejo | http://images.bzflag.org/bz_legacy/trepan/tiles/metal15.png & http://images.bzflag.org/bz_legacy/trepan/tiles/metal14.png were the only ones I found |
| 23:14.36 | allejo | https://web.archive.org/web/20070119085750/http://trepan.bzflag.bz/stars.png |
| 23:14.51 | allejo | https://web.archive.org/web/20070121184616/http://trepan.bzflag.bz/planets/saturn.png |
| 23:15.04 | allejo | https://web.archive.org/web/20070121184636/http://trepan.bzflag.bz/planets/neptune.png |
| 23:15.05 | JeffM | heh, on the archive |
| 23:15.07 | JeffM | nice |
| 23:16.13 | allejo | :) |
| 23:19.36 | the_map | http://www.shapeways.com/shops/oskarpuzzles |
| 23:20.19 | allejo | blast007, would you be able to add those images to images.bzflag.org somewhere? louman's spacestation still requires them |
| 23:20.26 | blast007 | working on it |
| 23:20.44 | allejo | sweet |
| 23:41.37 | blast007 | http://images.bzflag.org/bz_legacy/trepan/planets/ |
| 23:44.49 | allejo | ~blast007++ |
