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| 02:43.25 | blast007 | Shuist: had you seen my reply earlier? |
| 02:46.56 | Shuist | Oh, I had missed that. |
| 02:49.10 | Shuist | But at your first comment, yeah |
| 02:50.07 | blast007 | moving to a more modern OpenGL would basically require a complete redo of all graphics code |
| 02:52.40 | Shuist | Right, pardon my ignorance, but that sounds like a lot right?:p |
| 02:55.18 | blast007 | yeah, partially because our graphics code is kinda all over the place |
| 02:55.39 | blast007 | we don't have good separation of different types of code |
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| 02:57.16 | blast007 | also, if we switch to OpenGL 3.3, for instance, we'll be cutting off some older video cards |
| 02:59.54 | Shuist | Ah I see. So is there any uh, hope for getting better graphics? |
| 03:00.12 | blast007 | would require a GeForce 8 or 9 (except some that according to wikipedia only do 2.1) |
| 03:01.09 | blast007 | better is subjective |
| 03:01.22 | blast007 | we can already do some decent looking graphics |
| 03:01.42 | blast007 | http://bzflag.org/media |
| 03:03.28 | blast007 | I don't think it's gonna be a real priority right now as there would be more important things to focus on |
| 03:06.54 | Shuist | Okay that's a fair point. Was mainly asking because as I said, my friends and I assume a lot of people, judge by its first glance. |
| 03:09.19 | macsforme | I don't think people play bzflag for its graphics... I know several good players who turn the graphics settings down to almost the minimum |
| 03:10.17 | macsforme | some graphics "features," like lighting, or especially fog, can actually interfere with your ability to play your best |
| 03:11.53 | Shuist | Oh I know, I don't mind at all. I love it, it's what makes BZ, BZ:p |
| 03:12.31 | blast007 | fog can't be turned off in 2.4 |
| 03:12.34 | macsforme | so really I don't think it's to our benefit to try, as we have, to have nice graphics... better to have a minimalistic, clean look |
| 03:13.12 | macsforme | for example: http://i.imgur.com/F60amvc.png |
| 03:15.15 | blast007 | smooth lines? what is this? the early 2000's? everyone knows it's all about pixels now, again! http://cs3.gamemodding.net/posts/2013-12/15285000_1387974828_38251447_gta_sa_2013-12-04_10-37-31-29.jpg |
| 03:15.54 | Shuist | Oh boy lol |
| 03:18.30 | blast007 | if we used modern OpenGL, we could add a CRT shader to make it look like we're playing on an old CRT! |
| 03:19.08 | blast007 | interlaced goodness |
| 03:20.18 | macsforme | really, with the way people play the game, I don't think our graphics shouldn't attempt to mimick reality or be as visually appealing as possible... rather, the graphics should be designed to just clearly show the game elements that are important |
| 03:21.30 | blast007 | if anything I think we should go more cartoony |
| 03:21.39 | blast007 | theren already enough realistic looking tank games out there |
| 03:21.51 | blast007 | there's* |
| 03:21.53 | macsforme | indeed |
| 03:22.57 | macsforme | the above rendering was a start in that direction |
| 03:22.58 | blast007 | I am working on learning some modern OpenGL, but I don't think I'm gonna be able to write a game engine at the end of these tutorials ;) |
| 03:24.59 | blast007 | http://learnopengl.com/ |
| 03:25.01 | macsforme | imho OpenGL 3.2 is the best target at this point... you get the core profile, probably all the modern features we would need, but still widespread hardware support |
| 03:25.48 | blast007 | is 3.2 more supported than 3.3 by any real amount? |
| 03:27.11 | blast007 | 2nd gen intel core supports 3.1, 3rd gen supports 4.0 |
| 03:27.46 | macsforme | 3.2 was a big step forward from 3.1 |
| 03:27.57 | blast007 | nvidia I'm seeing jump from 3.1 to 3.3 for support |
| 03:28.42 | blast007 | and only three of the low end GeForce 200 series are limited to 3.1 |
| 03:28.53 | blast007 | so it's mostly a jump from 2.1 to 3.3 |
| 03:31.30 | blast007 | radeon jumps from 2.0 to 3.3 |
| 03:33.31 | blast007 | oh man, if we target more than 3.0, we might not run on the latest Via UniChrome though :'( |
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| 03:47.26 | BulletCatcher | allejo, what does your Spawn at Base plugin do that can't be done with freeCtfSpawns and specifying a team in a normal zone? |
| 03:48.57 | BulletCatcher | I use those standard features at BRL:5154 to make players always spawn on the boxes behind the bases. |
| 04:08.38 | allejo | the keyword in your statement is "always" :) |
| 04:09.27 | allejo | my plugin only spawns players in the specified zones after a flag capture or theiy spawning is reset. much like an actual base |
| 04:09.39 | allejo | if a regular zone is used, they will always spawn there |
| 04:09.50 | allejo | unless I completely missed a feature in the zone |
| 04:12.50 | Shuist | Alright, thanks blast! |
| 04:12.55 | Shuist | at before |
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| 21:00.34 | bizarrefish | What's the reason for doing hit-detect on the shot person rather than the shooter?\ |
| 21:00.49 | bizarrefish | Just arbitrary? |
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| 21:15.50 | JeffM | because bzflag is old and was not designed to be played on the internet |
| 21:16.06 | JeffM | it's just what the original author did. |
| 21:16.13 | JeffM | no sane modern game would do it that way |
| 21:21.00 | JeffM | but hey, it was fine for 1994 when LAN play was all they had. |
| 21:29.37 | blast007 | back then, if someone cheated, you could walk over and punch them |
| 21:32.52 | JeffM | headsmak server admin |
| 21:33.10 | JeffM | no pizza for cheaters |
| 21:55.21 | bizarrefish | Heh |
| 21:56.31 | bizarrefish | Seriously though, even if you had everything server-side, if you wanted some degree of scalability you'd want to be able to separate such work out amongst threads/instances. Which client's thread would get that job? |
| 21:56.39 | blast007 | we were being serious |
| 21:57.09 | bizarrefish | blast007: But I thought violence was never the answer O_O |
| 21:57.12 | blast007 | also, the collision login isn't a big CPU hog |
| 21:57.16 | blast007 | logic* |
| 21:57.25 | blast007 | the majority of the work that the client does is rendering |
| 21:57.40 | bizarrefish | How about the server's work? |
| 21:57.52 | blast007 | the server doesn't really do much at all |
| 21:57.55 | bizarrefish | Ah ok |
| 21:58.15 | blast007 | the client doesn't do much in the way of threading either |
| 21:59.06 | JeffM | the first server was a packet relay |
| 21:59.09 | blast007 | things that may have a separate thread involved (directly or indirectly) would be audio, DNS resolution, and HTTP requests |
| 21:59.19 | JeffM | then it got fancy, it did spawns |
| 21:59.39 | blast007 | input, collision logic, rendering, game networking all take turns |
| 21:59.51 | blast007 | they run in the main game loop |
| 21:59.58 | JeffM | timeslice for the loss! |
| 22:00.00 | bizarrefish | It's funny. I owe bzflag a great deal. I came to IRC for this channel. I learned C++ from the bzflag source code. I cleanroom reverse-engineered the bzflag network protocol for fun and profit. It honestly has taught me a huge amount. |
| 22:00.14 | JeffM | but PNG screenshot compression, that TOTALY got it's own thread :) |
| 22:00.22 | blast007 | "How not to do C++" |
| 22:00.30 | blast007 | oh yeah, forgot about that :) |
| 22:00.33 | JeffM | yeah it's not a great example of code. |
| 22:00.37 | bizarrefish | blast007: Still a valuable lesson :) |
| 22:00.42 | blast007 | hehe |
| 22:00.49 | JeffM | some audio stuff on windows has a thread too IIRC. |
| 22:00.53 | bizarrefish | Reading other people's code seems to be something most programmers can't do |
| 22:00.54 | JeffM | or it would stutter |
| 22:01.00 | bizarrefish | Even good code, they're hopeless with it. |
| 22:01.26 | JeffM | if only most programers would learn to use a debugger ;) |
| 22:01.42 | blast007 | JeffM: is that printf? |
| 22:01.42 | bizarrefish | They go into mash mode, and start tweaking the source until they can't see the bugs manifest any more. |
| 22:01.47 | blast007 | ;) |
| 22:02.04 | bizarrefish | Multi-threaded printf. heh. |
| 22:02.30 | JeffM | gets his gun |
| 22:02.41 | bizarrefish | gets his cannon |
| 22:02.56 | JeffM | blast007: I am right now WRITING a debugger, so people don't have to printf debug this crappy language |
| 22:03.18 | bizarrefish | JeffM: Is it better than gdb? |
| 22:03.34 | JeffM | yes, it's integrated into the IDE |
| 22:03.38 | bizarrefish | Ah |
| 22:03.43 | JeffM | breakpoints and watch windows |
| 22:04.05 | bizarrefish | I never really had a problem using gdb when I fixed some bzflag bugs. |
| 22:04.21 | JeffM | this isn't a real language :) |
| 22:04.26 | BulletCatcher | Today's XKCD http://xkcd.com/1685/ anticipated this discussion. |
| 22:04.27 | bizarrefish | Though, there's probably a certain amount of anti-usability i've learned to tolerate from my life in the GNUSphere |
| 22:04.28 | JeffM | it's named after poop |
| 22:05.23 | bizarrefish | ew python |
| 22:05.32 | bizarrefish | has a distaste for python. |
| 22:05.45 | blast007 | zuii recently pointed me to qtcreator, which works quite well |
| 22:05.51 | JeffM | not python |
| 22:05.56 | blast007 | supports autotools projects |
| 22:06.08 | JeffM | if it was an existing language i'd use existing tools |
| 22:06.12 | JeffM | propritary stuff |
| 22:06.22 | bizarrefish | My main complaint is basically that ruby is better. |
| 22:06.29 | bizarrefish | And I don't like ruby much either |
| 22:06.56 | bizarrefish | But yes, QtCreator is decent. Qt as a whole is very well put together imho |
| 22:08.55 | JeffM | now that python accepts ; at line end, it sucks less |
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| 23:19.02 | the_map | JeffM: you couldn't stop your habit of putting semicolons on the end of lines? :P |
| 23:46.54 | JeffM | Why would I do that? Sometimes you need to wrap that stuff |
