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| 00:04.41 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 00:09.25 | *** join/#bzflag CD-ROOM777 (c6909f73@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.144.159.115) |
| 00:10.33 | *** part/#bzflag CD-ROOM777 (c6909f73@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.144.159.115) |
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| 01:06.48 | delusional | blast - not found http://my.bzflag.org/listkeys |
| 01:07.39 | delusional | i made a new key last saturday, and i don't think it got picked up in the recent change. |
| 01:07.59 | delusional | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:39.43 | blast007 | yeah if you made a key at the old list, that woud have to be created again |
| 01:40.00 | blast007 | but that is disabled at the moment |
| 01:40.41 | *** join/#bzflag _slime (c6909f73@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.144.159.115) |
| 01:47.36 | delusional | i got it working using an older key |
| 01:54.54 | Patlabor221 | you don't need a new key if you just change machines |
| 01:55.07 | Patlabor221 | it's tied to domain or IP, whatever you put in when you created it |
| 01:55.30 | Patlabor221 | should totaly tie to the windows volume serial number ;) |
| 02:11.09 | delusional | just found out that theif can steal a burrow using squishfactr |
| 02:51.44 | *** join/#bzflag Patlabor221 (uid48618@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wboreoeqyravhuct) |
| 02:51.45 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Patlabor221] by ChanServ |
| 03:03.20 | *** join/#bzflag dGr8LookinSparky (ccd294ea@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.204.210.148.234) |
| 03:05.25 | dGr8LookinSparky | Hi every1 :) |
| 03:06.13 | dGr8LookinSparky | I haven't played BZFlag in years, I'm glad to see people on this channel :) |
| 03:06.51 | dGr8LookinSparky | I went by the name Sparky1 back then, idk if any1 here remembers me. |
| 03:07.11 | allejo | waves |
| 03:08.23 | dGr8LookinSparky | how has things been going with the game while I was gone? |
| 03:08.39 | allejo | slow |
| 03:08.56 | Patlabor221 | glacial |
| 03:09.12 | allejo | ^ i like that, imma use it |
| 03:09.53 | dGr8LookinSparky | how many regular players would you say BZFlag has now? |
| 03:10.37 | allejo | 40 plus or minus 40 |
| 03:11.23 | Patlabor221 | total or at a time? |
| 03:11.31 | dGr8LookinSparky | total |
| 03:11.45 | Patlabor221 | at least 130 |
| 03:12.27 | dGr8LookinSparky | and 40 simultaneously? |
| 03:12.33 | Patlabor221 | less |
| 03:12.58 | Patlabor221 | 2 to 30 |
| 03:13.21 | dGr8LookinSparky | how many were on 5 years ago? (which was the last time I played regularly |
| 03:13.32 | Patlabor221 | 60 yo 100 |
| 03:13.38 | Patlabor221 | or more |
| 03:13.47 | dGr8LookinSparky | how many total? |
| 03:13.57 | Patlabor221 | probably a couple thousand |
| 03:14.00 | Patlabor221 | I don't have data for then |
| 03:14.14 | Patlabor221 | but I remember seeing over 200 people playing at a time in the past |
| 03:15.27 | dGr8LookinSparky | do you guys know about about Tremulous? |
| 03:15.45 | Patlabor221 | I have heard of it |
| 03:16.20 | dGr8LookinSparky | That's where I have been playing mostly since 5 years ago |
| 03:16.54 | dGr8LookinSparky | and they have been experiencing a similar problem with a decline, although a lot of it is because of silly reasons |
| 03:18.17 | Patlabor221 | that can happen when there arn't updates |
| 03:18.22 | Patlabor221 | most projects end |
| 03:18.50 | dGr8LookinSparky | a little b4 I started playing it they released a new version they called GPP (game play preview, which is the version I primarily play), but due to how it was handled most players stayed on the earlier version (1.1) |
| 03:19.14 | dGr8LookinSparky | so there was a division and isolation in the playerbase |
| 03:19.57 | dGr8LookinSparky | now there are about 50 players left on GPP, and a few hundred left on 1.1 (which is much less than it used to be) |
| 03:20.18 | Patlabor221 | looks like they haven't updated since 2011 |
| 03:20.50 | dGr8LookinSparky | the main developers of the game pretty much abandoned it then |
| 03:21.04 | dGr8LookinSparky | but mods were still being developed, and still are |
| 03:21.32 | Patlabor221 | mods usualy can't compare to the core game |
| 03:21.41 | dGr8LookinSparky | about 3 years ago a group of trem mod developers started a derived game called Unvanquished |
| 03:22.12 | Patlabor221 | does that have more players? |
| 03:22.15 | dGr8LookinSparky | that game has been releasing regular monthly updates since then |
| 03:22.23 | dGr8LookinSparky | it has less than GPP |
| 03:22.36 | dGr8LookinSparky | most of the player base are the devs :) |
| 03:22.41 | Patlabor221 | sounds like the origonal should shut down so people will move to the new project |
| 03:24.07 | dGr8LookinSparky | the new one is still technically in alpha, and plans on releasing the 1st beta in a year, but it is still an awesome game, it is just not ready for mods yet since each month there are radical changes |
| 03:24.25 | Patlabor221 | ahh they did too much |
| 03:25.21 | blast007 | sounds like BZFlag 2.99.x ;) |
| 03:25.41 | dGr8LookinSparky | another group of us (of which I'm a part of) are working on some projects to bring the 3 games together so that the playerbase would not be seperated and could grow again |
| 03:26.22 | Patlabor221 | sounds like you should just fork the origonal and just keep the name |
| 03:26.23 | dGr8LookinSparky | one of the things we are working on is a game launcher with a UI overlay similar to how steam works |
| 03:27.49 | dGr8LookinSparky | ultimately what would be ideal would be if the vanilla game play of 1.1, and the mods of 1.1 and GPP were ported to Unv. |
| 03:28.03 | dGr8LookinSparky | Unv = Unvanquished |
| 03:28.44 | dGr8LookinSparky | but the launcher seems like it would require less time work and resources |
| 03:29.46 | Patlabor221 | programers are lazy :) |
| 03:30.01 | dGr8LookinSparky | we have already been working on a server browser and score tracker, here is the alpha (the beta should be ready by the end of the month: http://track.acidtu.be/ |
| 03:30.29 | dGr8LookinSparky | the launcher would be integrated with that |
| 03:31.14 | dGr8LookinSparky | anyways, I was thinking of the possibility of including other games with the tracker and launcher |
| 03:32.24 | dGr8LookinSparky | I remembered BZFlag, and browsed the forums a bit and was getting the indication you guys were having a similar problem |
| 03:32.34 | Patlabor221 | not really |
| 03:32.38 | Patlabor221 | we don't have forking issues |
| 03:32.47 | Patlabor221 | we just can't update the game to do anything |
| 03:33.09 | dGr8LookinSparky | in terms of a decreasing player base, not the same cause though |
| 03:33.20 | Patlabor221 | yeah, we can't keep players |
| 03:33.27 | dGr8LookinSparky | why can't you update the game? |
| 03:33.34 | Patlabor221 | nobody wants to |
| 03:33.50 | dGr8LookinSparky | why not? |
| 03:33.54 | Patlabor221 | we get a lot of people who look at the game, but most don't play |
| 03:34.01 | Patlabor221 | if we knew that then we could fix it |
| 03:34.05 | Patlabor221 | mostly developer apathy |
| 03:36.17 | dGr8LookinSparky | what if acidtu.be added BZFlag to the Launcher and tracker, we could mix up our playerbases, and share developers, and stir up new ideas in all the games? |
| 03:37.27 | Patlabor221 | I don't see why the launcher would be required for people to work on both games |
| 03:38.45 | dGr8LookinSparky | it encourages the players to try all of the games easily, since from in-game you can easily move between the servers of the different games |
| 03:39.02 | Patlabor221 | so you want to make your own steam? |
| 03:39.04 | dGr8LookinSparky | and where the players go, so do the developers |
| 03:39.20 | dGr8LookinSparky | essentially |
| 03:39.47 | Patlabor221 | honestly I don't want more players, I want the game fixed first |
| 03:40.35 | dGr8LookinSparky | in your opinion what needs to be fixed at the moment? |
| 03:40.37 | Patlabor221 | but you can include bzflag, it's open source. I don't think you'd get a lot of traction on developers here helping |
| 03:40.42 | Patlabor221 | the entire thing |
| 03:40.51 | Patlabor221 | bzflag was not intendded for network play |
| 03:40.57 | Patlabor221 | internet play at least |
| 03:41.11 | Patlabor221 | the entire network backend and simulation system needs to be rebuilt |
| 03:41.22 | Patlabor221 | I'd scrap the entire thing and redo it in a real engine |
| 03:41.26 | dGr8LookinSparky | isn't that the primary use of the game? |
| 03:41.30 | Patlabor221 | YUP |
| 03:41.34 | Patlabor221 | it's super sad |
| 03:42.09 | dGr8LookinSparky | what if you used Unvanquished's engine? |
| 03:42.16 | Patlabor221 | what are they using? |
| 03:42.41 | dGr8LookinSparky | one sec, I'll get the creator of Unvanquished on here ;) |
| 03:42.52 | Patlabor221 | is it a third party engine or custom code? |
| 03:43.55 | Patlabor221 | looks like it's own thing |
| 03:44.03 | Patlabor221 | I'd prefer to use an existing third party engine |
| 03:44.19 | Patlabor221 | ogre, godot, torque, unity, something like that |
| 03:44.25 | blast007 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unvanquished_%28video_game%29#Engine |
| 03:44.38 | Patlabor221 | I'm looking at it's source tree now |
| 03:44.40 | *** join/#bzflag cron (~cron@unvanquished/developer/cron) |
| 03:44.52 | dGr8LookinSparky | hi cron :) |
| 03:44.53 | Patlabor221 | ahh quake3 deritive |
| 03:45.07 | Patlabor221 | dooable but meh |
| 03:45.16 | dGr8LookinSparky | cron is the original creator of Unvanquished |
| 03:45.23 | Patlabor221 | umm ok |
| 03:46.01 | dGr8LookinSparky | Patlabor221 was talking about how he would like to see BZFlag redone with on a new engine |
| 03:46.20 | Patlabor221 | or a different game that was simply bzflag inspired |
| 03:47.10 | dGr8LookinSparky | I'm sorry, cron just corrected me, he lead the project and it was created by a group of people (himself included ;) ) |
| 03:47.21 | Patlabor221 | umm ok |
| 03:49.17 | cron | hrmm quake* engine probably is not what you're looking for if you wanted to make a new game |
| 03:49.46 | Patlabor221 | yeah, there are many quake forks that we could have used if we wanted that in the past |
| 03:50.02 | Patlabor221 | there are lots of engines available |
| 03:50.12 | cron | (i'm assuming you need a free open source licensed engine tho) |
| 03:50.27 | Patlabor221 | maybe, maybe not |
| 03:50.38 | Patlabor221 | our playerbase mostly just wants free games |
| 03:50.57 | Patlabor221 | persoaly I'd be fine with open source game code that worked with a free to use game engine |
| 03:50.59 | cron | torque3d might be a good candidate |
| 03:51.04 | Patlabor221 | bleh |
| 03:51.07 | Patlabor221 | looked at it |
| 03:51.13 | blast007 | we looked at it and it was kinda meh |
| 03:51.16 | Patlabor221 | has looked at MANY angines |
| 03:51.18 | Patlabor221 | engines |
| 03:51.29 | Patlabor221 | I want to evaluate godot since it went V1, but it doesn't have networking |
| 03:51.36 | Patlabor221 | but can always just use raknet |
| 03:51.36 | blast007 | though at the time I don't think it even built on linux |
| 03:51.48 | Patlabor221 | it's a 'little' better now |
| 03:51.51 | Patlabor221 | but not a lot |
| 03:52.02 | cron | personally i would not be interested in making new stuff on an ancient engine |
| 03:52.08 | Patlabor221 | indeed |
| 03:52.16 | cron | so ue4 is probably the way to go |
| 03:52.29 | Patlabor221 | or unity |
| 03:52.51 | Patlabor221 | motivation is still very very low |
| 03:53.32 | dGr8LookinSparky | what would it take to increase the motivation? |
| 03:53.41 | Patlabor221 | I don't think it can be done |
| 03:54.22 | dGr8LookinSparky | what is causing the low motivation? |
| 03:54.34 | Patlabor221 | if we knew that we cold fix it ;) |
| 03:54.39 | Patlabor221 | probalby just old code |
| 03:54.50 | Patlabor221 | all projects have to end |
| 03:54.58 | cron | yes |
| 03:55.09 | dGr8LookinSparky | why not start from scratch on a derived game? |
| 03:55.10 | cron | any good project plans its own end |
| 03:55.37 | Patlabor221 | beause it's hard to build a game on your own, and it's hard to get people to help if they can't see anything first ;) |
| 03:55.45 | Patlabor221 | chicken <-> egg |
| 03:56.22 | dGr8LookinSparky | yet new games do get started |
| 03:56.37 | Patlabor221 | sure by people outside of those in this channel |
| 03:56.38 | dGr8LookinSparky | and BZFlag was new once |
| 03:56.50 | Patlabor221 | sure |
| 03:56.52 | Patlabor221 | in 1992 |
| 03:57.04 | dGr8LookinSparky | wow, it is that old? |
| 03:57.08 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 03:57.19 | Patlabor221 | next year is 15 years open source |
| 03:57.26 | Patlabor221 | and we still have code from back then |
| 03:57.43 | dGr8LookinSparky | was that b4 the world wide web? |
| 03:57.45 | Patlabor221 | it was only last year that I replaced the last bit of origonal windows port |
| 03:57.53 | Patlabor221 | please use real words |
| 03:58.02 | dGr8LookinSparky | before* |
| 03:58.02 | Patlabor221 | the internet existed but was not as widespread |
| 03:58.04 | dGr8LookinSparky | lol |
| 03:58.19 | Patlabor221 | bzflag was intended for lan play |
| 03:58.24 | dGr8LookinSparky | I know the internet existed, the world wide web is different |
| 03:58.32 | Patlabor221 | it does not use an authoritative server |
| 03:59.45 | Patlabor221 | HTML pages as you know them did not really exist then |
| 04:00.08 | dGr8LookinSparky | so when BZFlag came out, it was 1 year since the 1st webpage on the Wolrd Wide Web: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web#History |
| 04:00.19 | Patlabor221 | bzflag was a side project by the author, and at one point he was going to release it commercially. |
| 04:01.09 | Patlabor221 | yeah it wasn't really a "thing" back then |
| 04:01.12 | cron | i would suggest you try to prototype something in udk (maybe 3 - not ue4) |
| 04:01.26 | Patlabor221 | I have been prototyping in unity |
| 04:01.26 | cron | it will go a lot faster than trying the same in unity |
| 04:01.33 | Patlabor221 | not in my experience |
| 04:02.07 | cron | hrmm ok - maybe i just like udk better :) |
| 04:02.14 | Patlabor221 | people like what people like |
| 04:02.22 | Patlabor221 | it's all what you are used to |
| 04:02.23 | cron | unity isn't bad tho.. i just don't have a ton of experience with it |
| 04:02.31 | Patlabor221 | I do |
| 04:02.53 | Patlabor221 | http://imgur.com/oyTSqfP |
| 04:03.53 | cron | cool. so i guess i'm confused tho... is this not what you want? is unity not doing what you want? |
| 04:04.11 | cron | bzflag on a new engine.. |
| 04:04.24 | Patlabor221 | you are confused because dGr8LookinSparky went and brought you here for some reason only he can fathom, we did not ask him to ;) |
| 04:04.25 | cron | looks like you're doing it.. what's the issue? |
| 04:04.36 | dGr8LookinSparky | lol |
| 04:04.37 | cron | no worries |
| 04:04.46 | Patlabor221 | he seems SUPER EXCITED about something |
| 04:04.54 | Patlabor221 | I am doing some prototypes in my spare time |
| 04:05.01 | cron | curb your enthusiasm sparky! |
| 04:05.02 | Patlabor221 | now that i have finished my degree |
| 04:05.03 | cron | lol |
| 04:05.20 | Patlabor221 | but it's just me |
| 04:05.31 | Patlabor221 | most other people are not as interested |
| 04:06.12 | Patlabor221 | some have a delusion of hope that bzflag will magically rise from it's ashes and be suddenly playable |
| 04:06.22 | Patlabor221 | others assume "someone(tm)" will make it work |
| 04:06.40 | cron | why doesn't it work? |
| 04:06.49 | Patlabor221 | it's a lan game from 1992 |
| 04:06.56 | cron | also, what language is it written in? |
| 04:06.57 | Patlabor221 | the core networking system was never updated |
| 04:06.58 | Patlabor221 | C++ |
| 04:07.02 | Patlabor221 | the client does EVERYTHING |
| 04:07.09 | Patlabor221 | cheating is rampant |
| 04:07.17 | dGr8LookinSparky | if everyone expects someone else to make it work, well no one will |
| 04:07.24 | Patlabor221 | exactly |
| 04:07.39 | cron | networking in 92... |
| 04:07.42 | cron | dies |
| 04:07.51 | Patlabor221 | there is no bit of code in bzflag that is worth taking to a new proejct |
| 04:07.53 | Patlabor221 | just ideas |
| 04:07.59 | Patlabor221 | yeah it's just raw sockets |
| 04:08.18 | Patlabor221 | it got UDP in like 1995 or 96, but only for some messages |
| 04:08.37 | cron | seems like it'd be best as a web game |
| 04:08.37 | Patlabor221 | then a list server shoehorned in during the early 2000's |
| 04:08.41 | cron | not a stand alone |
| 04:08.51 | Patlabor221 | it has no single player mode ;) |
| 04:08.59 | Patlabor221 | it's always been intended as a lan game |
| 04:09.01 | cron | web games can be multi... |
| 04:09.05 | Patlabor221 | sure |
| 04:09.13 | Patlabor221 | it cold easaly be writen in HTML5 |
| 04:09.19 | Patlabor221 | but nobody wants to do that |
| 04:09.20 | cron | js |
| 04:09.31 | Patlabor221 | the game is quite simple |
| 04:09.48 | Patlabor221 | there are a ton of ways it could be done |
| 04:10.01 | Patlabor221 | I would like to see it become more then the simple thing it is now |
| 04:10.14 | Patlabor221 | so for me.. newer engine gets me newer things |
| 04:10.37 | cron | what kind of new stuff do you want to see |
| 04:10.43 | cron | beyond rendering |
| 04:10.45 | cron | and networking |
| 04:10.54 | Patlabor221 | leauge support |
| 04:11.00 | Patlabor221 | extensibility |
| 04:11.11 | Patlabor221 | more game types |
| 04:11.11 | cron | like modding? |
| 04:11.21 | Patlabor221 | ish |
| 04:11.30 | Patlabor221 | not in the sense you are dealing with |
| 04:11.39 | Patlabor221 | more like UT mutilators |
| 04:12.01 | Patlabor221 | I added an API to our server system and it's been quite popular for making changes to gameplay |
| 04:12.22 | blast007 | mutators* :) |
| 04:12.41 | Patlabor221 | the bzflag maintainer didn't think anyone would use it, "they'll just use patches" he said |
| 04:12.48 | Patlabor221 | maybe the way you se them blast007 ;) |
| 04:13.11 | Patlabor221 | the issue now is that so little is done on the server, there isn't much left that can be done |
| 04:13.38 | Patlabor221 | and moving anything to the server is a massive task that get done |
| 04:14.18 | blast007 | we have graphics code mixed in with input code and network code and audio code and simulation code |
| 04:14.28 | Patlabor221 | I wold not want to see someone make a "mod" that plugs into bzflag and turns it into a different game, that's what forks far for |
| 04:14.36 | Patlabor221 | the tank is harcoded GL calls |
| 04:14.40 | Patlabor221 | strips and fans |
| 04:14.59 | cron | Patlabor221: that means a new client for the fork |
| 04:15.00 | cron | right |
| 04:15.03 | Patlabor221 | using super cool and awesome OpenGL 1.1@ |
| 04:15.07 | Patlabor221 | cron: and server |
| 04:15.08 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 04:15.09 | blast007 | and I'm sure we have some wacky and unoptimal states in our OpenGL calls.. |
| 04:15.10 | cron | that's bad |
| 04:15.12 | cron | for your game |
| 04:15.33 | Patlabor221 | not really, because then it's a DIFFERENT GAME ;) |
| 04:15.34 | cron | because who wants to install a bunch of variations |
| 04:15.46 | Patlabor221 | well that's why we do server based plug-ins |
| 04:15.50 | Patlabor221 | so far nobody has needed to fork |
| 04:15.54 | Patlabor221 | so I don't think it'll happen |
| 04:16.10 | Patlabor221 | if you want to turn bzflag into call of duty, just go play call of duty ;) |
| 04:16.56 | Patlabor221 | I'd like to see the map system and server do enough stuff so that there would be no need for a mod system like you have |
| 04:17.07 | Patlabor221 | I understand WHY you have one, you are quake based, that's what you do |
| 04:17.29 | cron | well, that's totally up to server owners |
| 04:17.39 | Patlabor221 | indeed |
| 04:17.55 | Patlabor221 | I'd honeslty like to provide project supported servers |
| 04:18.03 | Patlabor221 | and make the servers work on a "room" based concept |
| 04:18.11 | cron | even the 'main' devs of the projects that sparky and i are into - tremulous and unvanquished can barely manage 1 game type |
| 04:18.12 | Patlabor221 | where each room is a game isntance, setup with a set of rupes |
| 04:18.23 | cron | however, players need a lot more to be entertained |
| 04:18.32 | Patlabor221 | yeah that's why doing engine and game at the same time is hard |
| 04:18.42 | cron | and players and server ops will mod the game into the 'best' thing |
| 04:18.42 | Patlabor221 | use a third party engine then all you have to do is game ;) |
| 04:18.56 | Patlabor221 | server ops use our plugins now |
| 04:19.01 | Patlabor221 | and submit them to us for inclusion |
| 04:19.08 | Patlabor221 | that part has worked out well |
| 04:19.20 | Patlabor221 | people will prototype things in plug-ins |
| 04:20.21 | cron | how do you map for bzflag |
| 04:20.29 | Patlabor221 | with a text editor |
| 04:20.31 | cron | forgive my ignorance |
| 04:20.37 | Patlabor221 | sometimes people use a modeler |
| 04:20.45 | Patlabor221 | the map format is a list of objects on a plane :) |
| 04:20.58 | Patlabor221 | no bsp or anything facny |
| 04:21.14 | dGr8LookinSparky | I made a BZFlag map once, I used some program made for BZFlag maping, I forgot the name |
| 04:21.23 | Patlabor221 | on what OS? |
| 04:21.45 | dGr8LookinSparky | either windows or linux, I don't remember |
| 04:21.56 | Patlabor221 | if it was windows then it was BZEditW32 |
| 04:22.08 | Patlabor221 | the second worst thing I've ever written |
| 04:22.13 | dGr8LookinSparky | yes, I think that may have been it |
| 04:22.13 | blast007 | there have been a bunch of editors, but few that were all that great |
| 04:22.26 | Patlabor221 | there was a blender plug-in once |
| 04:22.50 | Patlabor221 | we had an SOC studdent make us what was supposed to be a proper editor but it was never finished |
| 04:23.16 | blast007 | Wings3D comes with an exporter, but can only do mesh objects, not any of our other types |
| 04:23.24 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 04:23.36 | Patlabor221 | there is also an obj to bzw converter |
| 04:24.00 | Patlabor221 | those are just to get meshes into the format, then they are placed at locations in the map file |
| 04:24.13 | Patlabor221 | modeltool technically supports quake maps |
| 04:24.29 | Patlabor221 | but they rarely work well as bzflag maps |
| 04:24.39 | Patlabor221 | since the map format isn't tree based |
| 04:30.26 | dGr8LookinSparky | So essentially to get a new BZFlag derived game going you need more interested devs to help? |
| 04:30.49 | Patlabor221 | that would help |
| 04:31.10 | Patlabor221 | but I don't think pulling devs from another game is fair |
| 04:34.48 | blast007 | it would also probably take the same level of dedication and organization that was put into getting 2.4.0 released |
| 04:35.02 | Patlabor221 | or more |
| 04:35.07 | blast007 | but over a longer period of time |
| 04:35.09 | blast007 | yeah |
| 04:35.52 | Patlabor221 | my hope would be that some form of prototype would get people excited enough to put in dedication |
| 04:36.02 | Patlabor221 | but that's a long shot |
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| 04:36.21 | dGr8LookinSparky | besides the launcher and tracker, we are currently designing a new website (at the moment targeted to the Trem and Unv communities, but can include other games), besides meant to attract/retain new players, is designed to attract, encourage, and support developers. |
| 04:36.39 | Patlabor221 | how? |
| 04:37.13 | alcatraz | hello |
| 04:37.17 | Patlabor221 | hello |
| 04:38.15 | allejo | hello |
| 04:41.41 | Patlabor221 | Are you going to efficiently operationalize your strategies to invest in world-class technology and leverage your core competencies in order to holistically administrate exceptional synergy? |
| 04:42.19 | dGr8LookinSparky | close... |
| 04:42.20 | dGr8LookinSparky | combination of a funding system (crosourcing, bounty system, etc...), offering collaborative tools, designing a project incubator system for people to propose and initiate new projects, and essentially having a central location for these different projects where devs from one project can help on some things in other projects. |
| 04:42.46 | Patlabor221 | you have a company set up to pay bounties? |
| 04:44.54 | dGr8LookinSparky | for our official projects we would raise the money from crowdsourcing, for independent developers they can offer bounties to other potential developers |
| 04:45.19 | Patlabor221 | your official project has a company? like for taxes? |
| 04:45.49 | dGr8LookinSparky | not at the moment, we are still planning. |
| 04:45.58 | Patlabor221 | that's usualy the hard part |
| 04:46.08 | Patlabor221 | but if you can swing it, then yeah bounties are great |
| 04:48.34 | Patlabor221 | people like to get paid, it lets them eat |
| 04:49.11 | dGr8LookinSparky | free in free software means freedom, not free in price ;) |
| 04:49.33 | Patlabor221 | there are many definitions of free |
| 04:49.56 | Patlabor221 | if you want people to write code for you, paying them is the best way |
| 04:50.00 | Patlabor221 | it works for me :) |
| 04:50.34 | dGr8LookinSparky | even if you don't spend cash, developing and running a game takes time, effort, and skill, which are really another form of money. |
| 04:50.42 | Patlabor221 | sure |
| 04:50.53 | cron | we dont want a company |
| 04:51.02 | Patlabor221 | then taxes are going to be hard for you |
| 04:51.03 | cron | don't need one either |
| 04:51.06 | cron | we don't get paid |
| 04:51.10 | cron | and dont pay taxes |
| 04:51.23 | Patlabor221 | who pays the bounties? |
| 04:51.27 | Patlabor221 | individuals? |
| 04:51.29 | cron | individuals |
| 04:51.45 | Patlabor221 | then they won't be able to pay more then 600$ in the US |
| 04:51.53 | Patlabor221 | after that they are supposed to 1099 them |
| 04:51.56 | Patlabor221 | but that can work |
| 04:52.00 | cron | that'd be on them |
| 04:52.07 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 04:52.12 | cron | but none of our bounties would be that big |
| 04:52.13 | Patlabor221 | if you stay under the radar it can work |
| 04:52.23 | Patlabor221 | it's 600$ in a year ;) |
| 04:52.41 | cron | probably $100 max for a 'big' project |
| 04:52.53 | Patlabor221 | then it can work |
| 04:53.34 | Patlabor221 | I'd personalty prefer to have a company, and have that company hold copyright on the proejct |
| 04:53.45 | Patlabor221 | then there would be no issues of an owner leaving |
| 04:53.59 | cron | mostly this will be good as a way for people to get things they want into the game, and for the people who make it to get _something_ for their effort |
| 04:54.11 | Patlabor221 | oh yeah bounties totaly work |
| 04:55.06 | Patlabor221 | I could see having a company and then letting people subscribe to an optionaly "supporter" system |
| 04:55.13 | Patlabor221 | then we'd have an income stream |
| 04:55.29 | Patlabor221 | and I'd give the supporters access to a supporter only server |
| 04:55.45 | Patlabor221 | and then we'd pay bounties from that |
| 04:55.47 | cron | we want both |
| 04:55.50 | Patlabor221 | but them's just dreams :) |
| 04:55.54 | cron | donations to the site |
| 04:56.04 | Patlabor221 | that can be a tax issue |
| 04:56.12 | cron | not if it's all spent |
| 04:56.13 | Patlabor221 | that's why I'd want a company |
| 04:56.40 | Patlabor221 | even if it's spend it has to be reported as income and expenses from some entity |
| 04:56.41 | dGr8LookinSparky | cron, that is what not-for profits do |
| 04:56.42 | cron | also, tax my dodgecoin |
| 04:56.44 | cron | i dare you |
| 04:56.49 | Patlabor221 | pfff |
| 04:56.52 | Patlabor221 | yeah whatevs |
| 04:56.59 | Patlabor221 | dGr8LookinSparky: those arn't super easy to setup |
| 04:57.05 | dGr8LookinSparky | I know |
| 04:57.06 | Patlabor221 | they have a LOT of restrictions |
| 04:57.10 | cron | we don't need that |
| 04:57.25 | dGr8LookinSparky | and you have a lot of paperwork to do every year |
| 04:57.27 | Patlabor221 | I htink a corp that dosn't make a profit is a valid thing to do |
| 04:57.35 | Patlabor221 | you also have limits on who and what you spend |
| 04:57.37 | cron | we operate on the internet - we will not need a non-profit |
| 04:57.45 | dGr8LookinSparky | maybe a LLC might work |
| 04:57.46 | cron | nobody gets paid |
| 04:58.00 | Patlabor221 | money is transfered, that's considered a "payment" |
| 04:58.08 | Patlabor221 | you are just hoping to stay under the radar |
| 04:58.10 | Patlabor221 | your choice |
| 04:58.13 | cron | people paying eachother has nothing to do with us |
| 04:58.31 | Patlabor221 | hopefully the feds will believe you ;) |
| 04:58.33 | dGr8LookinSparky | but you are also talking about donations to the site |
| 04:58.34 | cron | also people willingly giving someone else money on the internet does not require an llc |
| 04:58.36 | cron | or non profit |
| 04:58.43 | cron | just for that person to do their taxes |
| 04:58.47 | cron | 'do' |
| 04:58.53 | cron | heh |
| 04:58.59 | Patlabor221 | yeah but who gets the money from the site donttions? |
| 04:59.06 | Patlabor221 | a single site owner? |
| 04:59.17 | dGr8LookinSparky | this is true, the donators are responsable for that tax |
| 04:59.17 | cron | the person who has to pay the bill |
| 04:59.44 | Patlabor221 | if it's paypal and you get too much they will report it :) |
| 04:59.56 | Patlabor221 | dGr8LookinSparky: no the person who is donated TO is |
| 04:59.58 | dGr8LookinSparky | the advantage of a non-profit is that donators can deduct the payment |
| 05:00.04 | dGr8LookinSparky | nope |
| 05:00.51 | Patlabor221 | it's income |
| 05:01.07 | cron | anyway - we're talking about hundred of dollars for that - main funding would hopefully come from a kickstarter / indiegogo |
| 05:01.16 | Patlabor221 | yeah you are proabaly fine |
| 05:01.43 | dGr8LookinSparky | in the US the person giving a donation or gift are responsable for a gift tax, and there is no income tax |
| 05:02.04 | cron | sparky i dont want ppl to donate |
| 05:02.08 | Patlabor221 | dGr8LookinSparky: if it's under 600$ a year |
| 05:02.09 | cron | like a charity |
| 05:02.15 | cron | i want the to donate |
| 05:02.23 | cron | like you tip a starbux barista |
| 05:02.32 | Patlabor221 | he wants people to be willing to pay the developer individualy |
| 05:02.39 | Patlabor221 | like a bidding system |
| 05:02.40 | dGr8LookinSparky | cron, technically tips are taxable |
| 05:02.53 | Patlabor221 | player A says "I will pay whoever implements feature Q" |
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| 05:02.59 | Patlabor221 | then developer B does it |
| 05:03.05 | Patlabor221 | and gets paid direclty by player A |
| 05:03.17 | Patlabor221 | then "the project" has nothing to do with the transaction |
| 05:03.32 | cron | ... we are getting 'tips' tho.. we would be providing a tangible service and also any payment would result in additional services on that thniog |
| 05:03.36 | cron | thing* |
| 05:03.39 | dGr8LookinSparky | in that instance there is a transaction, and exchange of money for a service |
| 05:03.52 | Patlabor221 | yeah that's still income ;) |
| 05:03.59 | Patlabor221 | it just won't be enough to mater |
| 05:04.07 | dGr8LookinSparky | donations are different from bounties |
| 05:04.17 | cron | really i don't care about this |
| 05:04.24 | cron | it will work :) |
| 05:04.25 | Patlabor221 | hheh |
| 05:04.28 | Patlabor221 | yeah you'll be fine |
| 05:04.31 | cron | we don't a company |
| 05:04.36 | cron | or an organization |
| 05:04.37 | Patlabor221 | dGr8LookinSparky: only to a charrit |
| 05:04.45 | Patlabor221 | you'll be fine for low numbers |
| 05:05.00 | Patlabor221 | if you start doing hundreds of thousands of dollars then it won't fly |
| 05:05.03 | Patlabor221 | but you'll be fine |
| 05:05.19 | cron | pfff our players are playing a free old game on old hardware |
| 05:05.24 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 05:05.27 | cron | they're cheap :D |
| 05:08.09 | dGr8LookinSparky | http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Frequently-Asked-Questions-on-Gift-Taxes#1 |
| 05:08.27 | Patlabor221 | dGr8LookinSparky: that's to a COMPANY ;) |
| 05:09.09 | Patlabor221 | but he's not looking for those kinds of gifts |
| 05:09.35 | dGr8LookinSparky | http://fairmark.com/general-taxation/tax-rules-for-gifts/ |
| 05:10.03 | Patlabor221 | we arn't talking a out taxes on the gift transfer, we are saying that if it's used to pay for services, it's a payment |
| 05:10.20 | Patlabor221 | but give it a shot and see what happens |
| 05:10.44 | Patlabor221 | the system descripbed does not have a central person who receives anything, gift or not |
| 05:11.02 | dGr8LookinSparky | yes, but in regards to raising money via donations (crowd sourcing), it is the person giving the donation responsible for taxes |
| 05:11.08 | Patlabor221 | if your "site" accepts the gift directly then it will be considered income, but that isn't the system being proposed |
| 05:11.48 | Patlabor221 | accept a couple grand in gifts and see what the IRS says |
| 05:11.49 | dGr8LookinSparky | we are looking into both systems, bounty, and crowd sourcing for donations to the site |
| 05:12.07 | Patlabor221 | that does not seem to be what your friend is saying |
| 05:12.57 | Patlabor221 | "In general, in the US, funds raised on Kickstarter are considered income." |
| 05:13.04 | dGr8LookinSparky | 11:55:47 PM |
| 05:13.04 | dGr8LookinSparky | cron |
| 05:13.04 | dGr8LookinSparky | we want both |
| 05:13.20 | Patlabor221 | having a company means you pay less taxes on income, since you can just spend it |
| 05:13.33 | dGr8LookinSparky | hmm, where is that quoted from? |
| 05:13.54 | Patlabor221 | the kickstarter site, on it's large section on taxes |
| 05:14.19 | Patlabor221 | but back to your inital reason you came here, I don't see anything that would work with sharing anything |
| 05:14.57 | Patlabor221 | if you want to add bzflag to your launcher you can |
| 05:15.09 | Patlabor221 | I don't know what that gets you, but it's your launcher ;) |
| 05:17.28 | Patlabor221 | how many hosts does your game list run on and how does it deal with DDOS attacks? |
| 05:19.36 | cron | between the games, only about 30 servers i'd say.. and no ddos protection because it's the same as ioquake3 |
| 05:19.46 | Patlabor221 | heh |
| 05:19.52 | Patlabor221 | we have a list server already |
| 05:20.00 | Patlabor221 | it's tied to our authentication system |
| 05:20.11 | Patlabor221 | but it's a single point of failure we have now |
| 05:20.26 | cron | ? |
| 05:20.50 | Patlabor221 | we have a system that shows the servers that are currently available |
| 05:27.05 | Patlabor221 | but it's a single system |
| 05:27.16 | Patlabor221 | all the game servers just talk to it when they startup |
| 05:28.30 | Patlabor221 | and the game clients get a list on startup |
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| 20:50.57 | JeffM2501 | requests comments, https://github.com/JeffM2501/BZFlagUnity/wiki/Authentication-System |
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| 22:23.15 | blast007 | JeffM2501: might be worth finding a way to do it so that the auth nodes don't have a copy of the password hashes on them |
| 22:23.36 | JeffM2501 | there is a way, read to the bottom |
| 22:24.45 | JeffM2501 | give everyone keys, have them crypto the auth stuff and have the nodes pass it on upstream |
| 22:25.01 | JeffM2501 | then the nodes are just proxies |