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| 16:45.03 | Patlabor221 | so 30 respondents so far, 50% windows, 30% OSX, 20% Linux |
| 16:46.13 | Patlabor221 | only 2 people oppose registration |
| 16:48.21 | Patlabor221 | and about half don't play other games |
| 16:52.06 | Patlabor221 | And the google idea wasn't hated as much as blast007 was hoping for ;) |
| 16:53.13 | Patlabor221 | More people responded with absolute yes then absolute no, but most were in the maybe category |
| 17:14.21 | blast007 | thankfully it doesn't matter :P |
| 17:14.50 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 17:14.58 | Patlabor221 | I was just curious to see the responce |
| 17:15.20 | Patlabor221 | it would not be good enough to even consider, but it's not as negative as I thought it wold be |
| 17:18.13 | Patlabor221 | so I have a database design question, is it a bad idea to have a table that defines what permisions user roles can have? is it better to hardcode that or keep it in a config in case the DB gets haxored, or is it all moot once the DB gets compromised? |
| 17:18.33 | blast007 | it would be a user hostile solution. "I forgot what my account was" "Sorry, can't help you.. ask Google" |
| 17:19.19 | blast007 | if a database gets hacked, they can just add themselves as an admin |
| 17:19.36 | Patlabor221 | so it doesn't matter where the role info is stored |
| 17:20.25 | blast007 | the big issue there *may* be performance. doing a lot of DB lookups is more expensive than loading a file. |
| 17:21.02 | Patlabor221 | so as an optimization |
| 17:22.28 | blast007 | is it something you think would be changing? |
| 17:22.37 | Patlabor221 | maybe |
| 17:23.34 | blast007 | then just put it in the database for now. optimize if it becomes a bottleneck. |
| 17:23.34 | Patlabor221 | it may evolve into a thing where a group owner can create roles for memebers of the group |
| 17:23.39 | Patlabor221 | k |
| 17:23.44 | Patlabor221 | thats what I was hoping for |
| 17:24.21 | Patlabor221 | thanks |
| 17:24.51 | Patlabor221 | oh and our most requested feature is Tutorials on how to Cheat Lag |
| 17:25.16 | blast007 | wut |
| 17:25.34 | Patlabor221 | most people selected, Lag, Cheaters, and No Tutorials as important items |
| 17:25.50 | Patlabor221 | so we just combine that in to laggy cheater training |
| 17:25.55 | blast007 | ah :) |
| 17:25.56 | Patlabor221 | problem solved! |
| 17:26.47 | Patlabor221 | I shared the results with you |
| 17:27.06 | blast007 | k |
| 17:27.51 | Patlabor221 | only 2 people responded that they have crap hardware |
| 17:28.00 | Patlabor221 | so going up to a higher GL level/ shaders is probalby fine |
| 17:29.02 | Patlabor221 | I export the sheet as excel and sort it localy to get counts |
| 17:29.36 | blast007 | the form itself will have a "summary" option |
| 17:29.41 | Patlabor221 | ahh |
| 17:30.47 | Patlabor221 | I shared that with you too |
| 17:32.59 | Patlabor221 | it's a pretty nice summary |
| 17:35.05 | blast007 | lot of LAN players |
| 17:36.03 | Patlabor221 | yeah, tho again I question if they are truely not interent connected and are just thinking I want to remove the server :) |
| 17:36.35 | Patlabor221 | Lan play and require auth are not compatable so the data doesn't seem to match up |
| 17:36.43 | blast007 | yeah |
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| 17:37.11 | Patlabor221 | ether people don't realize that, or they don't understand the definition of LAN |
| 17:37.31 | blast007 | I've only known one or two people who set up a local list server for LAN-only networks, and a couple others I know that play only over the LAN |
| 17:37.39 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 17:37.58 | Patlabor221 | the only thing I'd do is not ship the server |
| 17:38.03 | Patlabor221 | still make it available |
| 17:38.09 | blast007 | it's something that we'd know for sure if we went ahead and required auth, since the ones who really do play local only would complain then |
| 17:38.10 | Patlabor221 | but not ship it in the windows package |
| 17:38.21 | Patlabor221 | y eah |
| 17:38.55 | blast007 | and to fix that would be as simple as releasing a single file PHP script that takes care of a barebones auth/list system |
| 17:38.59 | Patlabor221 | the local server would not have to verify the auth but the client would query auth on startup |
| 17:39.14 | Patlabor221 | there are several ways I can see to make it acceptable for lan people |
| 17:39.21 | Patlabor221 | if that's a big deal |
| 17:39.46 | blast007 | we should at least fix the local server searching mechanism to actually work, or remove it otherwise ;) |
| 17:39.51 | Patlabor221 | no auth cold just mean "No list server provided games" and you can only connect to a LAN game |
| 17:40.16 | Patlabor221 | yeah, I did some work at school with multicast for LAN server detection, we can make it work |
| 17:40.37 | Patlabor221 | tho it pisses modern firewalls off |
| 17:41.16 | blast007 | does having it be multicast help over just having then client send out a "Is there any bzflag servers here?" broadcast? |
| 17:41.36 | Patlabor221 | depends what you mean by "broadcast" |
| 17:41.49 | blast007 | sending it to the local subnet |
| 17:41.56 | Patlabor221 | checking all the IPs ? or using a muticast socket? |
| 17:42.20 | Patlabor221 | multicast is one packet, checking all the IPs in the subnet is a lot of packets |
| 17:42.46 | Patlabor221 | the nice thing about the multicast is it gets the subnet, AND what you do is send the multicast on it's own port, a known non changing port |
| 17:42.52 | blast007 | can't you send to the broadcast ID of the subnet? |
| 17:42.54 | Patlabor221 | then the responce says "my host is on this port" |
| 17:43.03 | Patlabor221 | that's how multicast works IIRC :) |
| 17:43.23 | blast007 | I thought multicast uses a different IP range and is used to send to multiple IPs |
| 17:43.28 | Patlabor221 | true |
| 17:43.33 | Patlabor221 | so maybe there are 3 ways |
| 17:43.40 | Patlabor221 | I did not studdy the subnet stuff |
| 17:43.46 | Patlabor221 | scaning IPs sucks |
| 17:43.47 | blast007 | I'm just talking about what, for instance, DHCP's handshake does. |
| 17:43.59 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 17:44.02 | Patlabor221 | dunno |
| 17:44.11 | Patlabor221 | multicast was very easy to work out in code |
| 17:44.17 | blast007 | client sends out a broadcast for "who can give me an address?" and the DHCP server sends back a unicast to that client saying "I can!" |
| 17:44.19 | Patlabor221 | and seemed decently reliable |
| 17:44.33 | blast007 | perhaps |
| 17:44.40 | Patlabor221 | can you do that after you get an address? is that dooable at the socket level or only the transport level? |
| 17:44.57 | Patlabor221 | but yes, I'm sure we can do more to make LAN detection better |
| 17:45.11 | Patlabor221 | if that is important |
| 17:45.32 | Patlabor221 | if it's not super important maybe we just need a wraper that shows the IP it's listening on for people to type in |
| 17:45.34 | blast007 | just saying that it currently is there but in a broken state, so it confuses people |
| 17:45.43 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 17:45.59 | Patlabor221 | yet people say they play on lan so they must get around that somehow |
| 17:46.33 | blast007 | they have to type the IP directly instead of using the result on the server list |
| 17:47.43 | Patlabor221 | if that's acceptable maybe the GUI just needs to modes a startup "Play online", "Play localy" and then for online we use auth, for local we ask for an IP |
| 17:48.15 | Patlabor221 | there are so many ways we can make it work if we want to go auth required for online play |
| 17:48.45 | blast007 | yeah |
| 17:49.02 | Patlabor221 | I bet the google auth question would have a very different answer if I used facebook instead of google as an example :) |
| 17:49.12 | Patlabor221 | or myspace |
| 17:49.18 | blast007 | hehe, was just going to say myspace ;D |
| 17:49.35 | Patlabor221 | "Please login with your lycos account" |
| 17:49.41 | blast007 | geocities |
| 17:49.45 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 17:49.53 | Patlabor221 | have multiple and they all be old dead services |
| 17:51.08 | Patlabor221 | wow, anglefire still exists? http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/ |
| 17:51.08 | blast007 | from RakNet revision log: "Added server query function for LAN broadcast discovery." |
| 17:51.36 | Patlabor221 | yeah several engines have LAN discovery stuff |
| 17:51.37 | blast007 | and tripod.lycos.com :) |
| 17:51.50 | Patlabor221 | unity uses it for NAT breakthru |
| 18:01.24 | Constitution | local servers are also used by map developers? at least until there is a better solution than that |
| 18:02.40 | Patlabor221 | yeah but that's not the same as playing on a LAN that isn't connected to the internet |
| 18:03.03 | Patlabor221 | I want to know how many people actualy play on LANs that have no conenction to auth services |
| 18:04.07 | Constitution | could the global auth requirement be implemented strictly for servers on the list? and just remove local auth altogether and make them use /password? |
| 18:04.29 | Patlabor221 | why does LAN play even need auth? |
| 18:04.58 | Constitution | it doesn't? just some way of getting admin perms, to use /set and such |
| 18:05.01 | Patlabor221 | but yes, that would be the idea |
| 18:05.33 | Patlabor221 | we make a LAN mode, hosts that connect on the same IP as the server are granted auth |
| 18:05.50 | Patlabor221 | really we want to remove /password too |
| 18:05.54 | Patlabor221 | since it's plaintext |
| 18:06.42 | Patlabor221 | but yes there are many solutions |
| 18:06.45 | Constitution | if it's only used for local testing servers and for LAN games, I don't see how security is an issue |
| 18:06.52 | Patlabor221 | exactly |
| 18:06.57 | Patlabor221 | thats why I'm trying to get data |
| 18:07.02 | Patlabor221 | to see what it's used for |
| 18:07.13 | Constitution | ok |
| 18:08.02 | Constitution | I just don't entirely like the idea of being unable to start a local server without connecting it to the list, since there are still a few uses for that |
| 18:08.32 | Patlabor221 | sure the testing situation is valid |
| 18:08.47 | Patlabor221 | and that is a case where you may not have net access |
| 18:09.23 | Patlabor221 | but we can make a testing wraper that fires up a server, and then direclty connects a client to it |
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| 18:10.17 | Patlabor221 | silly laptop |
| 18:20.56 | gnu-sense | I think there may be some schools/universities that use BZ in a classroom/lab setting. It's possible that there are local/LAN uses that would be really hard to find out about in a survey. |
| 18:22.29 | Patlabor221 | yet even a school would have net access at the classroom level |
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| 19:15.39 | blast007 | and again, some of this we may not find out about until we make a change and then someone's usage breaks |
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