| 01:10.56 | spldart | Wow... Playing bzflag using my T-mobile phone tethering for internet. Lagstats aren't bad at all at the moment. I'm a little surprised. |
| 01:16.27 | JeffM | lte is good bandwith |
| 01:16.38 | spldart | Woah. Very few players for 2.4.3. Am I behind on version? |
| 01:16.48 | JeffM | no |
| 01:16.55 | spldart | well poo |
| 01:17.08 | JeffM | how many> |
| 01:17.10 | JeffM | ? |
| 01:17.44 | spldart | maybe 22 total |
| 01:17.54 | spldart | all on the top 4 servers maybe :( |
| 01:18.02 | JeffM | sounds normal |
| 01:18.47 | spldart | :sadface: I've been away for to long. Not that my presence would have made a diff but I could have enjoyed a bit more if I wasn't so distracted. |
| 01:19.31 | JeffM | 2 to 40 is normal |
| 01:19.50 | spldart | IC. I miss the good old days. Such that they were ;) |
| 01:22.43 | *** join/#bzflag AresHandler (~AresHandl@pool-74-109-244-171.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 01:24.25 | AresHandler | who is mahem1 |
| 01:24.47 | spldart | Welp... Tomorrow I'm gonna linger on a rabbit chase server and perhaps get a decent game goin. I do love a good rabbit chase on a decent server/map. |
| 01:24.55 | JeffM | a person |
| 01:25.03 | AresHandler | !seen mahem1 |
| 01:25.03 | spldart | An individual |
| 01:26.00 | JeffM | what are you looking for AresHandler ? |
| 01:26.13 | AresHandler | mahem1 |
| 01:26.27 | JeffM | for what? |
| 01:26.49 | *** mode/#bzflag [-v short_circuit] by ChanServ |
| 01:32.20 | short_circuit | I just realized I was just on that server. heh |
| 01:33.10 | AresHandler | summer storm |
| 01:33.43 | JeffM | you can send him a PM on the forums if you'd like to leave a message |
| 01:33.48 | short_circuit | Yeah. Anywho... This channel is generally not responsible for individual server opera.... |
| 01:33.51 | short_circuit | What he said |
| 01:34.17 | short_circuit | or perhaps /report on the server itself if that option is available |
| 01:34.21 | AresHandler | ah good idea |
| 05:56.14 | *** join/#bzflag khonkhortisan (~Khonkhort@2601:8:8600:97f:4a5b:39ff:fe94:be23) |
| 08:03.24 | *** join/#bzflag heartnet (~msk@133.242.185.159) |
| 08:17.40 | *** join/#bzflag rodgort (~rodgort@192.241.198.49) |
| 08:33.21 | *** join/#bzflag alezakos_ (~local@ppp-2-85-192-172.home.otenet.gr) |
| 08:49.36 | *** join/#bzflag Leppp (~Leppp@ip70-181-131-206.sd.sd.cox.net) |
| 09:55.09 | *** join/#bzflag delusional (~delusiona@pool-173-71-173-74.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 10:12.45 | *** join/#bzflag catay (~smertens@valyria.catay.be) |
| 11:44.44 | *** join/#bzflag blast007 (~blast007@bzflag/developer/Blast) |
| 11:55.51 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 12:10.08 | *** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@2601:5:9880:327:ddd2:5c6b:a5df:ccfe) |
| 12:10.08 | *** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535) |
| 12:42.23 | *** join/#bzflag somethingbrokeba (d0365387@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.83.135) |
| 12:43.06 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (d0365387@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
| 12:43.06 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 13:37.11 | *** part/#bzflag heartnet (~msk@133.242.185.159) |
| 13:44.05 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright (~aaa@2607:5300:60:7d4::1) |
| 15:42.03 | *** join/#bzflag Leppp (~Leppp@ip70-181-131-206.sd.sd.cox.net) |
| 15:45.26 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@2605:e000:7d02:c700:64ef:3091:fa89:e859) |
| 16:06.14 | *** join/#bzflag DTRemenak (~DTRemenak@about/essy/CrazyCoder/DTRemenak) |
| 16:06.14 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v DTRemenak] by ChanServ |
| 16:52.12 | *** part/#bzflag alezakos (~kongr45gp@unaffiliated/alezakos) |
| 16:52.20 | *** join/#bzflag alezakos (~kongr45gp@unaffiliated/alezakos) |
| 17:58.08 | *** join/#bzflag Snake12534 (329c524c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.156.82.76) |
| 18:03.57 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 18:07.21 | *** join/#bzflag JPT (~jpt@jpt.lu) |
| 18:10.23 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 18:18.37 | *** join/#bzflag alpha1-2 (~alpha1-2@host106.201-252-136.telecom.net.ar) |
| 18:19.02 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (d0365387@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.54.83.135) |
| 18:19.16 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (d0365387@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
| 18:19.16 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 18:45.23 | *** join/#bzflag khonkhortisan (~Khonkhort@2601:8:8600:97f:4a5b:39ff:fe94:be23) |
| 18:58.55 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@2605:e000:7d02:c700:64ef:3091:fa89:e859) |
| 19:42.31 | blast007 | JeffM: tested the XP target and that worked (ran on my XP laptop, needed the 2013 runtimes). And you were right that it doesn't need 2012 installed to build that way. Seems it also includes some VC11 (2012) files with the 2013 install. |
| 19:43.12 | blast007 | one thing I'm curious on though is if the express version of 2013 supports the XP target, so I'll have to try that too |
| 19:43.37 | blast007 | if it does, would there be any downside to us using the XP target? |
| 19:49.03 | JeffM | probably depends how the XP target works on not-XP and if it has any limitations |
| 19:50.20 | blast007 | "Only apps that are created by using the vs110_xp toolset support Windows XP and Windows Server 2003, but those apps can also support Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows Server 2008, Windows 8, and Windows Server 2012." |
| 19:52.24 | blast007 | we'd lose support for the C++ "Accelerated Massive Programming" library, remote debugging on an XP system, static analysis, debugging of DirectX graphics, and building HLSL (without updated DX SDK) ;) |
| 20:14.14 | alpha1-2 | About "Pirates of the Raging Seas!": well, the newer system worked very well, then. All was loaded within 15 seconds aprox., instead of 2 minutes, I think (and w/o ending). He is using the "-cache" option, I guess (no plugins loaded). Thanks again, guys. |
| 20:14.15 | alpha1-2 | It is a pretty good looking map, and seems fun also. I have 12 FPS with my low featured machine, but I still can play it well in the Experimental quality. |
| 20:22.58 | alpha1-2 | blast007: which IDE+libraries are you talking about? |
| 20:32.49 | JeffM | the most popular ones |
| 20:33.42 | alpha1-2 | "JeffM: blast007, I don't have 2012 instaled, just 2010 and 2013..." then you need to have 2 versions installed? how is that? |
| 20:34.05 | JeffM | you don't need 2010 |
| 20:34.10 | JeffM | I just happen to have it |
| 20:34.24 | alpha1-2 | ah, okay |
| 20:34.36 | blast007 | alpha1-2: I use both as 2.4 uses 2010 and 2.5 uses 2013 |
| 20:34.44 | JeffM | indeed |
| 20:35.28 | alpha1-2 | ah... but you didn't mix them, right? you have them enough separated/divided? |
| 20:35.45 | blast007 | they install side by side automatically.. |
| 20:35.48 | JeffM | windows is not linux |
| 20:36.01 | JeffM | all of the runtimes are mixed |
| 20:36.06 | JeffM | the compilers are nit |
| 20:36.09 | blast007 | We've been talking about 2013. By default, Visual C++ 2013 only builds binaries that run on Vista or higher, leaving XP and Server 2003 out. |
| 20:36.29 | blast007 | So we were looking at an optional XP target in the 2013 |
| 20:37.09 | JeffM | would it even be optional if the default bins are made for it? |
| 20:37.11 | alpha1-2 | into Visual Studio .Net, if I am right, you can select then which one you want? |
| 20:37.24 | JeffM | visual studio .net is very old |
| 20:37.38 | JeffM | that's VC7 |
| 20:37.40 | alpha1-2 | "oh god" :) |
| 20:38.04 | JeffM | VC11 and VC12 allow you to pick a toolchain to use |
| 20:38.10 | alpha1-2 | or whatever other name it has! hehe |
| 20:38.15 | JeffM | 12 has 2 toolchains, one is XP compatable |
| 20:40.53 | alpha1-2 | oh, I see, cause XP is not anymore maintained, right? |
| 20:41.11 | JeffM | yes |
| 20:41.25 | JeffM | 2013 is going to be the last version of visual studio to support XP |
| 20:41.59 | alpha1-2 | ah, okay |
| 20:46.53 | alpha1-2 | "<JeffM> would it even be optional if the default bins are made for it?" I think many people are still using XP or I am wrong? |
| 20:47.31 | JeffM | that is a point of argumnet |
| 20:47.40 | JeffM | we have no hard data |
| 20:47.54 | JeffM | I see no reason to support them, blast would like to keep supporting them for one more shot |
| 20:48.41 | alpha1-2 | for 2.6 then? |
| 20:49.01 | JeffM | that is what we are discussing |
| 20:49.08 | JeffM | 2.4.x uses VC10 |
| 20:49.11 | JeffM | it supports XP |
| 20:49.20 | alpha1-2 | because 2.5 is just intermediate for testing, right? |
| 20:49.25 | JeffM | no |
| 20:49.32 | JeffM | 2.5 is development for 2.6 |
| 20:49.47 | alpha1-2 | yes, that is what I meant |
| 20:50.11 | JeffM | VC12 is needed for some of the more fancy C++11 stuff |
| 20:50.12 | alpha1-2 | only non-odd versions |
| 20:50.19 | JeffM | we only ship even versions |
| 20:50.28 | alpha1-2 | okay, "even" |
| 20:53.15 | alpha1-2 | re-reading all |
| 20:53.42 | JeffM | it's not super important |
| 20:53.46 | JeffM | it's just a build target |
| 21:03.44 | alpha1-2 | (ow I am very out of date about MIcrosoft... still reading) |
| 21:05.13 | blast007 | I just don't think we should be desupporting platforms with the limited player counts right now ;) |
| 21:05.46 | JeffM | I understand your reasoning, that's why I'm willin to go along with it |
| 21:06.02 | blast007 | JeffM: and I meant "optional" as far as what Visual C++ offers, not what we would pick |
| 21:06.10 | JeffM | k |
| 21:06.17 | JeffM | I just don't want to have 2 installers |
| 21:07.43 | blast007 | runs fine on my Windows 7, and it's the same runtime, so it would be one installer |
| 21:08.33 | JeffM | sounds good enough |
| 21:14.25 | alpha1-2 | Maybe this help? |
| 21:14.27 | alpha1-2 | "Visual Studio 2012 |
| 21:14.28 | alpha1-2 | ... On 16 September 2011 a complete 'Developer Preview' of Visual Studio 11 was published on Microsoft's website. Visual Studio 11 Developer Preview requires Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2, Windows 8, or later operating systems.[121] Versions of Microsoft Foundation Class Library (MFC) and C runtime (CRT) included with this release cannot produce software that is compatible with Windows XP or Windows Server 2003 except by using |
| 21:14.30 | alpha1-2 | native multi-targeting and foregoing the newest libraries, compilers, and headers.[122] However, on June 15, 2012, a blog post on the VC++ Team blog announced that based on customer feedback, Microsoft would re-introduce native support for Windows XP targets (though not for XP as a development platform) in a version of Visual C++ to be released later in the fall of 2012.[123] "Visual Studio 2012 Update 1" (Visual Studio 2012.1) was |
| 21:14.31 | alpha1-2 | released in November 2012. This update added support for Windows XP targets and also added other new tools and features (e.g. improved diagnostics and testing support for Windows Store apps).[124]" |
| 21:14.33 | alpha1-2 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio#Visual_Studio_2012 |
| 21:17.23 | JeffM | why would I want to use an older verison of visual studio? |
| 21:17.52 | JeffM | there is an XP target in 2013 |
| 21:18.14 | blast007 | alpha1-2: we didn't need help with that ;) |
| 21:19.01 | blast007 | the only piece of the puzzle left is if Visual C++ 2013 Express Edition also supports the XP target |
| 21:19.21 | JeffM | and even that is less important |
| 21:19.27 | alpha1-2 | oh you are using 2013 VS already, okay... (still don't find the exactly relationship between VC versions and VS ones, but NP) |
| 21:19.38 | JeffM | the odds of someone wanting to develop on XP is lower then a player |
| 21:20.06 | JeffM | alpha1-2, Visual Studio (VS) is a collection of compilers in an IDE, it is braned by year |
| 21:20.08 | blast007 | JeffM: I'm not talking about developing on XP, I'm talking about building on Vista and up in express |
| 21:20.17 | JeffM | 2010, 2012, 2013, etc.. |
| 21:20.33 | JeffM | blast007, it would default to the non XP target and build |
| 21:20.43 | blast007 | hopefully |
| 21:21.05 | JeffM | alpha1-2, Visual Studio includes Visual C++, it is versioned with a number, VC10,11,12, etc... |
| 21:21.17 | blast007 | but local VMs are cheap ;) |
| 21:21.23 | JeffM | blast007, worst case is I have 2 targets in the project |
| 21:21.31 | JeffM | that ain't so bad |
| 21:21.34 | blast007 | k |
| 21:22.25 | JeffM | VC13 may only support 64 bit, that'll be the more interesting one |
| 21:22.35 | alpha1-2 | JeffM: I hae some knowledge about VS, just some confused still with every version and year, but NP, will keep reading, thanks :) |
| 21:23.24 | JeffM | alpha1-2, it's just a compiler |
| 21:23.41 | JeffM | the version numbers and the years are off by one right now |
| 21:24.28 | alpha1-2 | yes, in VS, but their relationship with VC versions? Is it the same? |
| 21:25.12 | alpha1-2 | I hae this already: |
| 21:25.14 | JeffM | each compiler is versioned seperately |
| 21:25.14 | alpha1-2 | VC12=2013 |
| 21:25.15 | alpha1-2 | VC11=2012 |
| 21:25.17 | alpha1-2 | VC10=2010 |
| 21:25.18 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:25.20 | JeffM | that's it for VC |
| 21:25.29 | JeffM | the other tools have ther own versions |
| 21:26.03 | alpha1-2 | okay, and VS has its own versioning also, right? |
| 21:26.16 | JeffM | the year |
| 21:26.23 | alpha1-2 | okay |
| 21:26.26 | JeffM | + an update number |
| 21:26.32 | JeffM | it's currrently 2013 update 3 |
| 21:26.54 | alpha1-2 | and which one are you using for the last version of BZ? |
| 21:27.00 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:27.10 | blast007 | define "last" |
| 21:27.18 | alpha1-2 | the last one of VS? |
| 21:27.30 | JeffM | is the current compiler we intended to use for the next release |
| 21:27.39 | JeffM | assuming that ever happens |
| 21:27.45 | alpha1-2 | the last VC version, then? |
| 21:27.58 | JeffM | no it won't be the last |
| 21:28.03 | alpha1-2 | ah okay |
| 21:28.05 | JeffM | 2014 will ship before BZ does |
| 21:28.08 | blast007 | do you mean "latest"? |
| 21:28.13 | JeffM | but it won't support XP |
| 21:28.17 | alpha1-2 | ah latest, yes :) |
| 21:28.55 | blast007 | in any case, this was already answered. 15:34:35 < blast007> alpha1-2: I use both as 2.4 uses 2010 and 2.5 uses 2013 |
| 21:30.03 | alpha1-2 | then you are using rigth now 2010 and 2013 of VC (VC10 and VC12)... okay, the last one nowadays |
| 21:30.42 | alpha1-2 | I let you continue, just trying to und. better, thanks :) |
| 21:30.48 | JeffM | "right now" is a ba term |
| 21:30.55 | JeffM | there are 2 things "right now" |
| 21:31.41 | alpha1-2 | 2 things? |
| 21:31.57 | alpha1-2 | and why is a bad term? |
| 21:32.00 | JeffM | 2.4 and 2.6 |
| 21:32.10 | alpha1-2 | yes, I see that |
| 21:33.10 | alpha1-2 | I just wonder/worry a little why you are trying to use the latest available compiler, though |
| 21:33.39 | blast007 | we already told you that too |
| 21:33.45 | JeffM | to get the best possible performance as well as C++11 |
| 21:33.57 | JeffM | std::thread FTW! |
| 21:34.19 | *** join/#bzflag khonkhortisan (~Khonkhort@2601:8:8600:97f:4a5b:39ff:fe94:be23) |
| 21:34.40 | alpha1-2 | oh threads! that sounds good... well, still thinking :) |
| 21:35.19 | alpha1-2 | but threads are offered just in the last version?? |
| 21:35.26 | alpha1-2 | latest* |
| 21:35.59 | JeffM | standard threads |
| 21:36.02 | alpha1-2 | not a good performance (or didn't exist) before? |
| 21:36.21 | JeffM | do you know what threads are and why you would want to use them? |
| 21:36.28 | alpha1-2 | ohh I see, standards... |
| 21:36.34 | JeffM | yeah C++11 |
| 21:36.42 | alpha1-2 | oh I saw them in 1999 :) |
| 21:36.56 | alpha1-2 | Concurrent Paradigm! |
| 21:36.56 | JeffM | not as part of the standard template library |
| 21:38.23 | alpha1-2 | wow it takes its time to accept standards eh? :) |
| 21:38.38 | alpha1-2 | 15 years at least! |
| 21:38.59 | alpha1-2 | (or around) |
| 21:39.01 | JeffM | sometimes |
| 21:39.26 | JeffM | threads as an idea have been around a long time but it takes time to work them into a universal format |
| 21:39.40 | alpha1-2 | yes, some complex |
| 21:39.45 | JeffM | computers handle them in very different ways |
| 21:39.59 | alpha1-2 | it is a whole "new" paradigm! |
| 21:40.37 | alpha1-2 | Structured, Objects Oriented, Concurrent, etc... |
| 21:41.09 | alpha1-2 | it will take some work also eh? :) |
| 21:41.28 | alpha1-2 | but I recognize it is challenging also |
| 21:41.55 | JeffM | no, all we have to do is use them now |
| 21:42.21 | alpha1-2 | yes, but it is some hard |
| 21:42.28 | alpha1-2 | to "convert" all |
| 21:42.48 | JeffM | we don't use threads now, so there is no conversion |
| 21:42.52 | JeffM | we just want to start using them |
| 21:42.57 | JeffM | so we'll do it as we work |
| 21:44.34 | alpha1-2 | conversion between the 2 paradigms |
| 21:45.01 | JeffM | bzflag is alread object oriented |
| 21:45.05 | alpha1-2 | will you use productors, monitors and costumers? :) |
| 21:45.08 | JeffM | and you don't have to "convert" |
| 21:45.10 | JeffM | no |
| 21:45.16 | JeffM | those are not required to sue SDL |
| 21:45.19 | JeffM | STL |
| 21:45.24 | JeffM | those are just tools |
| 21:45.34 | JeffM | they don't make alot of sene for most stuff |
| 21:45.51 | JeffM | visitors maybe for collisions |
| 21:46.21 | JeffM | step 1 is getting the server to put networking into a thread |
| 21:46.25 | JeffM | and buffer it properly |
| 21:46.34 | JeffM | then do the same on the client |
| 21:47.00 | alpha1-2 | I am talking about converting in a theoretically way. If it is OO now, you will have to "adapt" it to the new point of view. Can you see it? |
| 21:47.26 | alpha1-2 | OO is not = to Concurrent |
| 21:48.28 | JeffM | they are unrelated |
| 21:48.38 | JeffM | there are many ways to use threads |
| 21:48.47 | JeffM | we are not breaking bzflags up to run on a cluster |
| 21:49.00 | JeffM | so most "concurency" stuff dosn't make sense |
| 21:49.12 | JeffM | we don't have a big math formula to complete |
| 21:49.23 | JeffM | you are just saying buzzwords and not looking at the problem we have to solve |
| 21:49.48 | JeffM | MVC is a fine desing for bzflag |
| 21:49.56 | JeffM | and can work quite well with several threads |
| 21:49.59 | alpha1-2 | you will just use concurrency in: networking, buffer and collisions? ("visitors"?) |
| 21:50.23 | JeffM | define "Concurrency" in your mind? |
| 21:50.43 | alpha1-2 | reading |
| 21:50.53 | alpha1-2 | chat |
| 21:51.52 | alpha1-2 | oh "buzzwords"... |
| 21:52.09 | alpha1-2 | the University is buzwords? :P |
| 21:52.39 | alpha1-2 | or you think I learnt just reading a computer magazine? |
| 21:52.46 | JeffM | sounds like it sometimes |
| 21:53.28 | alpha1-2 | I attended University for several years (and worked into it also), and I have told it time ago |
| 21:53.54 | JeffM | that dosn't mean anyting about what you have learned :) |
| 21:54.06 | alpha1-2 | I didn't end the career still, though |
| 21:54.07 | JeffM | I know what they teach |
| 21:54.53 | JeffM | we are simply going to break up some things so the arn't blocking, it will not require a major redesign |
| 21:54.59 | JeffM | just the use of some API functions |
| 21:55.02 | alpha1-2 | then I have certain knowledge (though I don't want to talk of what I don't know, OFC) |
| 21:55.33 | JeffM | put sockets in a thread, and use a mutexed list to get data in and out |
| 21:55.49 | JeffM | then your FPS has less affect on your latency :) |
| 21:56.05 | alpha1-2 | you will just take some features and make them concurrent, right? |
| 21:56.20 | JeffM | I don't know what that statement means |
| 21:56.32 | JeffM | we will use threads where they make sene |
| 21:56.34 | JeffM | sense |
| 21:56.42 | alpha1-2 | like networking, as you said |
| 21:57.46 | alpha1-2 | okay, I was just asking where will you do it. Then, still thinking in that. |
| 21:58.09 | JeffM | wherever it makes sense :) |
| 21:58.18 | JeffM | we never make grand plans |
| 21:58.37 | alpha1-2 | ah okay, then, while you wrk, I understand :) |
| 21:59.08 | JeffM | that's how nearly all work in bzflag happens |
| 21:59.09 | alpha1-2 | will look at the developing plans again |
| 22:00.26 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (~JeffM@2605:e000:7d02:c700:64ef:3091:fa89:e859) |
| 22:04.38 | alpha1-2 | oh, I don't see any concurrency into the plans :) |
| 22:04.58 | alpha1-2 | (quick look) |
| 22:05.09 | alpha1-2 | http://wiki.bzflag.org/DevelopmentPlans/2.6.0 |
| 22:10.07 | *** join/#bzflag Gnurdux_ (~Michael@edgerton-seven-fourty.mit.edu) |
| 22:13.36 | alpha1-2 | "<JeffM> that dosn't mean anyting about what you have learned :)" I have attended the half of the career aprox. (it has 5 years total; Information Systems Engineering; with an intermediate degree of Information Systems Analyst (3.5 years)). Apart of all I have learned with courses and by my own since kid. :) |
| 22:14.04 | spldart | Guess I'm just to old cuz this is just as fun as the beginning 8~D |
| 22:15.56 | spldart | Oh..... a toy.... |
| 22:17.07 | alpha1-2 | on my own* |
| 22:20.01 | alpha1-2 | some people say that older people become again like kids, spldart :) (but not sure) |
| 22:21.23 | spldart | Grownups that hold on to their inner kids are gifted to bring a joy of learning and understanding to the world. |
| 22:21.39 | spldart | and that is awesome. |
| 22:22.36 | blast007 | alpha1-2: that's because it's not "planned" for 2.6, but doesn't mean it would or would not happen. "we never make grand plans" |
| 22:22.47 | alpha1-2 | (sorry, still some slow to understand English) |
| 22:23.07 | spldart | may I ask your native tongue? |
| 22:23.13 | blast007 | the 2.6 plans are just things I (and maybe others) think we need to do to make BZFlag get some players back |
| 22:23.30 | alpha1-2 | Spanish, I am from Argentina |
| 22:23.55 | spldart | oki doke. That helps. Many Spanish speakers here |
| 22:24.03 | alpha1-2 | and have had a lot of training with BZ already! :)) |
| 22:24.11 | alpha1-2 | (2 years) |
| 22:25.01 | alpha1-2 | oh "their inner kids", yes, that's a true! |
| 22:25.13 | alpha1-2 | for every age! |
| 22:27.07 | alpha1-2 | blast007: "to make BZFlag get some players back", is this the main objetive, then? Interesting. Focused in players. |
| 22:27.29 | alpha1-2 | (or in what they want/need) |
| 22:28.09 | spldart | So... You have a specific point to make. |
| 22:28.35 | alpha1-2 | and "we never make grand plans", okay... trying to understand it... |
| 22:29.00 | spldart | Perhaps a language translation thing. |
| 22:29.14 | JeffM | we do not make plans for large features |
| 22:29.20 | JeffM | people just do what they want to do |
| 22:29.22 | alpha1-2 | (uh oh, work :S) |
| 22:29.56 | blast007 | alpha1-2: well, if we don't, there's not much of a future for BZFlag ;) |
| 22:31.14 | alpha1-2 | yes, one developer told me long time ago that the development is rather slow. Not bad. Specially thinking in a mature project. |
| 22:31.38 | JeffM | old does not mean mature :) |
| 22:31.48 | spldart | ;) |
| 22:34.49 | alpha1-2 | oh again with the "positive spirit"? :) I think it *is* mature. Though, you always can improve/adapt/update it. But specifically talking of the free/libre projects, I think 20 years is a *very good* period to talk certainly of maturation (and I can see/probe it everyday into the game). |
| 22:35.43 | JeffM | bzflag was never realy finished, it was playable but never finished (Feature complete) |
| 22:35.53 | JeffM | so it can't really go into maintenance mode |
| 22:36.02 | JeffM | it needs to be kept up to modern standards |
| 22:36.34 | JeffM | at the very least with regards to lag/networking/cheating |
| 22:37.52 | alpha1-2 | "<JeffM> bzflag was never realy finished, it was playable but never finished (Feature complete)" this is very relative/subjetive! As far as I know, free/libre soft. is *always* under development, and how more if it is as complex as BZ |
| 22:38.07 | spldart | 8-| #bzflag-debate? |
| 22:38.29 | alpha1-2 | and I talk as a player also (I like games too much) |
| 22:39.50 | alpha1-2 | well, it's my/our opinion/s. I would like to hear more people also :) . |
| 22:40.37 | alpha1-2 | and congrats again for the nowadays state of the game!, I am pretty happy with it (though it can be improved as I said) |
| 22:42.46 | alpha1-2 | have a look at "Pirates of the Raging Seas!" (it's using "-cache" ;), and you will see how nice and playable a map can be nowadays! |
| 22:44.08 | JeffM | There is a point where you are feature complete to your design |
| 22:44.15 | alpha1-2 | "Pirates of the Raging Seas!" suddenly has 57 players! (strayers) hehe |
| 22:44.16 | JeffM | bzflag never got there |
| 22:44.28 | JeffM | it was not designed for internet plah |
| 22:46.08 | alpha1-2 | well, if talking again of the lag issue, in my humble opinion, I like it |
| 22:46.45 | JeffM | you should not have to know the network connection of your opponent in order to hit them |
| 22:46.51 | alpha1-2 | (or the server/client model) |
| 22:47.02 | JeffM | I know of no other game that calls that flaw a 'feature' |
| 22:47.44 | alpha1-2 | client or server? |
| 22:47.53 | alpha1-2 | side* |
| 22:48.10 | JeffM | huh? |
| 22:48.12 | JeffM | lag is lag |
| 22:48.19 | JeffM | you have to compensate for your target's lag |
| 22:48.33 | alpha1-2 | oh I see |
| 22:48.36 | JeffM | the server does no hit testins |
| 22:49.43 | alpha1-2 | i would like that you compare mostly BZ with other *free/libre* games, not only/specially with propietay ones. Then we could talk of similar systems, technologies and environment (and monetary supports). |
| 22:50.01 | JeffM | all other free FPSs solve this problem too |
| 22:50.04 | alpha1-2 | environments* |
| 22:50.13 | JeffM | but it's silly to limit yourself to free stuff |
| 22:50.16 | JeffM | bzflag is a game |
| 22:50.21 | JeffM | it should be comparabl to games |
| 22:50.25 | JeffM | who cares where they come from |
| 22:50.34 | JeffM | still, compare it to Cube |
| 22:50.40 | JeffM | or any other FPS |
| 22:51.21 | JeffM | when you want people to use OpenOffice, you don't say "well it's good compared to other free stuff", you say "it this is better then WORD" |
| 22:51.56 | alpha1-2 | I read one time you compared our "poor" 6 players at early hours of a day with, don't remember, 5000? other ones into... Steam? That sounds not fair to me, excuse me :) . |
| 22:52.22 | JeffM | mos games on steam, even free ones have orders of magnitude more players |
| 22:52.24 | alpha1-2 | (oh and into a lot of games, not only 1 Steam game) |
| 22:52.25 | JeffM | why is it not fair? |
| 22:52.38 | JeffM | many of those games are made by small teams? |
| 22:52.50 | JeffM | why are they different? |
| 22:53.01 | spldart | shucks. Got in a rabbit but they ran away :( |
| 22:53.29 | spldart | actually. that was kinda slightly punny |
| 22:54.01 | alpha1-2 | spldart: I reccomend to wait minimal 20 minutes :) |
| 22:54.06 | alpha1-2 | recommend* |
| 22:54.11 | spldart | indeed |
| 22:54.21 | alpha1-2 | I do it everyday |
| 22:54.49 | spldart | really... I look forward to playing you... are you 'alpha' on the game? |
| 22:55.22 | spldart | I'm not very good anymore but I have a few tricks that still fit my wrinkly old sleeves. |
| 22:55.52 | spldart | bout to call it a night though now. ;) |
| 22:55.55 | alpha1-2 | you just compared 1 free game (BZ) in the lesser playing time with all the Steam games together (maybe in the higher playing time?). This is not near fair, dude! |
| 22:56.23 | alpha1-2 | (and not becoming mad) |
| 22:56.29 | alpha1-2 | (just discussing) |
| 22:56.30 | JeffM | alpha1-2, together, no single games |
| 22:57.37 | JeffM | comparing them together is laughable, that's in the millions of players |
| 22:57.48 | alpha1-2 | if you want to recommend to join Steam with BZ (or any other game structure) is one thing. But nothing to do with comparing the amount of players in too different contexts. |
| 22:58.12 | JeffM | I am simply saying that there are a lot of people out there who will play free FPS games |
| 22:58.15 | JeffM | we do not keep them |
| 22:58.25 | JeffM | people try bz and do not play |
| 22:58.35 | JeffM | because it does not live up to the standards they expect |
| 22:58.50 | JeffM | our website stats support that |
| 22:59.02 | JeffM | we get many people who see bz but do not play |
| 22:59.47 | JeffM | the novelty of "3d game on the internet" isn't eough to hold people anymore |
| 22:59.49 | spldart | niche |
| 23:00.02 | alpha1-2 | night spldart, we can play next time, NP :) |
| 23:00.13 | JeffM | it's not even niche, it's a very small group of old players who haven't left yet |
| 23:00.30 | JeffM | it slowly goes down |
| 23:00.30 | spldart | But... that seems to imply... |
| 23:00.32 | spldart | dying |
| 23:00.38 | JeffM | and? |
| 23:00.39 | alpha1-2 | oh "niche" :P (I thought you were German or something) |
| 23:00.42 | spldart | poo |
| 23:00.43 | JeffM | you can't wish it away |
| 23:01.02 | spldart | 1/4 german.. but no... not a pun |
| 23:01.12 | JeffM | to think that bzflag is doing ANYTHING other then dying means killing it faster since you are not fixing anything |
| 23:01.45 | spldart | I hate hearing that but I understand it's coming. :( |
| 23:01.59 | JeffM | coming? dude it's been happening for years |
| 23:02.08 | spldart | true |
| 23:02.11 | alpha1-2 | JeffM: in my few experience with BZ, let's say, I found a game similar to us: 3DScorch. And we are better than them I think. |
| 23:02.17 | spldart | I stand corrected |
| 23:02.28 | JeffM | alpha1-2, yes we are better then a dead tank game |
| 23:02.36 | JeffM | bzflag isn't a tank game |
| 23:02.40 | JeffM | it's a FPS with tanks |
| 23:02.41 | alpha1-2 | and it is not dead AFAIK |
| 23:03.33 | JeffM | it's a different kind of game with different players |
| 23:03.38 | JeffM | it's a strategy game |
| 23:04.08 | JeffM | it dosn't have our lag issue :) |
| 23:04.08 | spldart | The 1980/1990's pizza hut video game kinda players ;) |
| 23:05.28 | alpha1-2 | and I don't neither believe that it is dying |
| 23:05.39 | JeffM | it is not thriving |
| 23:05.42 | JeffM | not at all |
| 23:05.44 | spldart | I'm sorry to say it is kinda dying |
| 23:06.17 | JeffM | it's commits per year, not per week |
| 23:06.35 | alpha1-2 | JeffM: how much time you don't enjoy playing a good map with BZ? :) Start with yourself! |
| 23:06.52 | JeffM | it's unplayable |
| 23:07.02 | alpha1-2 | we are 56 right now here. Why we don't play some often the game? :) |
| 23:07.16 | JeffM | that isn't going to make it get any more devloped :) |
| 23:07.36 | spldart | oh boy.... Jeff was oftened in with testing. He ... wait.. phone |
| 23:08.07 | alpha1-2 | Last moment: BZ development was stopped cause all them realized that it was much more fun to play it than to develop it! haha |
| 23:08.29 | JeffM | ummm no.... |
| 23:09.38 | alpha1-2 | no, really, JeffM, I challenge you to play at least 1 time per week, and you will see that it is *still* playable and fun. Accept it? :) |
| 23:09.46 | JeffM | nope |
| 23:09.49 | alpha1-2 | haha |
| 23:09.55 | alpha1-2 | older! |
| 23:09.59 | JeffM | huh? |
| 23:10.05 | alpha1-2 | (or old) |
| 23:10.08 | JeffM | huh? |
| 23:10.30 | alpha1-2 | where is your "inner kid"?? :) |
| 23:10.37 | JeffM | replace the network and sim systems ten we'll talk |
| 23:10.42 | alpha1-2 | haha |
| 23:10.59 | JeffM | or I could just cheat |
| 23:11.04 | JeffM | tht's super easy |
| 23:11.12 | spldart | lol |
| 23:11.13 | JeffM | how does any of that prove the game is playable? |
| 23:11.20 | alpha1-2 | sorry if I sound disrespectful. Not my intention. We, latins, are more expressive. |
| 23:11.57 | JeffM | I know what you were trying to do, and turning from disucssion to the fun "oh no it's not dying, lets play" is what has made it die |
| 23:12.05 | JeffM | nobody is willing to do any real work |
| 23:12.16 | JeffM | bzflag died years ago when development stopped |
| 23:12.17 | alpha1-2 | admins: ban JeffM! he is announcing it with time |
| 23:12.26 | alpha1-2 | (or previously) :) |
| 23:12.29 | JeffM | the players will always be the last to know |
| 23:12.54 | JeffM | that's just the thing, you can't know if I was cheating or not |
| 23:12.56 | spldart | ;_; |
| 23:13.01 | JeffM | that's how unplayable the game is |
| 23:13.06 | alpha1-2 | (talking of the cheatting) |
| 23:13.55 | alpha1-2 | oh, man, I play it very often fr the last 2 years. And I just saw very very few times cheaters appeared. Really! |
| 23:14.01 | alpha1-2 | now* |
| 23:14.05 | JeffM | that you know of |
| 23:14.14 | JeffM | how do you know if they are cheating? |
| 23:14.31 | alpha1-2 | if I see "any dodgy" as one server says |
| 23:14.45 | JeffM | huh? |
| 23:14.50 | alpha1-2 | you notice it |
| 23:14.55 | JeffM | there are so many ways to cheat you can't see them all |
| 23:14.59 | alpha1-2 | if you see anything weird |
| 23:15.01 | JeffM | you are looking for one kind of cheat |
| 23:15.06 | JeffM | how do you know it's not lag? |
| 23:15.19 | alpha1-2 | cause you get used to lag situations |
| 23:15.33 | JeffM | so it's all based on your judgeement and experience? |
| 23:15.38 | JeffM | how is this fun for new players? |
| 23:15.47 | alpha1-2 | and that is the role of servers admins, and players. Don't worry too much |
| 23:16.01 | JeffM | they don't know who's cheating |
| 23:16.05 | JeffM | the can't |
| 23:16.11 | JeffM | most servers are not administrered |
| 23:16.23 | alpha1-2 | then don't play on them |
| 23:16.31 | JeffM | you are just so used to it you work around the problems |
| 23:16.35 | JeffM | that is not good |
| 23:16.36 | alpha1-2 | just play where i is fun and some ordered |
| 23:16.39 | alpha1-2 | it* |
| 23:16.54 | spldart | oh wow |
| 23:16.58 | spldart | sry. |
| 23:16.59 | alpha1-2 | what is your point? I don't und. well |
| 23:17.02 | JeffM | and how does a new player figure that out? |
| 23:17.19 | JeffM | how does a new player learn what lag "looks like"? |
| 23:17.31 | alpha1-2 | you say "stop playing, this game is not worth it"? |
| 23:17.38 | JeffM | I say we should fix it |
| 23:17.48 | JeffM | it may be easer to fix it by replacing it |
| 23:17.56 | JeffM | but it must be fixed |
| 23:18.08 | JeffM | playing it does not fix it |
| 23:18.14 | JeffM | it just lets it die slowly |
| 23:18.22 | spldart | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:18.31 | spldart | meh |
| 23:18.48 | spldart | shouldn';t complain. I'm not helping much anymore at all :( |
| 23:19.00 | JeffM | that is an expression of the exact problem ;) |
| 23:19.24 | spldart | precisely |
| 23:19.40 | spldart | I feel so guilty now ;) |
| 23:19.53 | alpha1-2 | "<JeffM> how does a new player learn what lag "looks like"?" with experience and help |
| 23:20.10 | JeffM | alpha1-2, why would they want to do that? |
| 23:20.27 | JeffM | they can just go play a different game |
| 23:20.27 | alpha1-2 | and I repeat, I don't see a problem with the lags |
| 23:20.35 | JeffM | because you are used to it |
| 23:20.42 | alpha1-2 | (or server/client moedl) |
| 23:20.46 | alpha1-2 | model* |
| 23:20.52 | spldart | lagstats 8~P... I was like what the fudge! Why is his tank vascillating all over the map!!? |
| 23:20.58 | JeffM | why do you keep bringing up the model? |
| 23:21.06 | JeffM | who said anythin about client/server being a problem? |
| 23:21.09 | alpha1-2 | in my humble point of view, it works pretty well, you can't make it better |
| 23:21.42 | JeffM | so every time a shot goes throough another tank on the screen it blows up? |
| 23:21.56 | alpha1-2 | (or considerably better) |
| 23:22.06 | JeffM | you need to play more games |
| 23:22.11 | JeffM | it can be made a LOT better |
| 23:22.33 | JeffM | do you ever lead your targets based on lag? |
| 23:22.38 | alpha1-2 | wait |
| 23:22.43 | alpha1-2 | don't make me dizzy |
| 23:22.46 | alpha1-2 | :) |
| 23:22.48 | JeffM | do you ever think that you hit someoone but they didn't blow up? |
| 23:22.56 | alpha1-2 | help , help! |
| 23:23.08 | spldart | You are enjoying a good debate are you not? |
| 23:23.19 | alpha1-2 | I have/take my time (about English) |
| 23:23.32 | JeffM | he's not a fast reader and freaks out when he gets behind beause he thinks everone is mad at him and waiting for his responces |
| 23:23.39 | spldart | The problems are what they are. The state of things are what they are. |
| 23:23.52 | spldart | oh |
| 23:23.55 | spldart | sry. ok |
| 23:24.04 | JeffM | nobody has ever gotten mad at him for that :) |
| 23:24.11 | spldart | nope |
| 23:24.15 | alpha1-2 | still reading |
| 23:24.21 | JeffM | we know |
| 23:24.45 | spldart | *patience* ;~) We love you :) |
| 23:24.46 | alpha1-2 | any problem with it? or you only discuss with full English people? :) |
| 23:25.06 | JeffM | nobody has ever had a problem with your reading speed |
| 23:25.35 | alpha1-2 | how many questions did you make me in 20 minutes, 50? hehe |
| 23:25.43 | alpha1-2 | no way! |
| 23:25.50 | spldart | Our Spanish speakers our currently quiet/offline. Your english is quite adequate. By all means. Continue |
| 23:26.01 | alpha1-2 | now BRB |
| 23:26.09 | JeffM | they are all related, you know that a tank doesn't blow up 100% of the time |
| 23:26.09 | spldart | no problem |
| 23:26.14 | JeffM | you've just learned to deal with it |
| 23:26.18 | JeffM | so you don't see a problem |
| 23:26.24 | JeffM | new people see a problem |
| 23:26.37 | JeffM | I recall you being very frustrated at the start |
| 23:26.57 | spldart | Almost seems a problem with socialogy.... forgive my spelling |
| 23:27.04 | spldart | gah |
| 23:27.31 | JeffM | the people that stay are here for there own reasons |
| 23:27.33 | spldart | Your english is quite good alpha. |
| 23:27.51 | JeffM | most do not have other games they like |
| 23:27.59 | JeffM | or stay for community |
| 23:28.03 | spldart | guilty as charged |
| 23:28.09 | JeffM | they work around the problems because that is what they are used to |
| 23:28.17 | spldart | except some stupid apps on my android phone :( |
| 23:28.57 | JeffM | it is understantable why they stay. but we can't assume new players will stay for the same reasons |
| 23:29.02 | spldart | Candy Crush Saga I hate you!!!! ;) |
| 23:29.03 | JeffM | so that means something has to change |
| 23:29.20 | spldart | understood |
| 23:30.40 | spldart | Yep... time for a ramen, 2 eggs dropped in and some Badia all spice ;) |
| 23:31.02 | spldart | sry. tmi |
| 23:36.34 | alpha1-2 | well, I think I will do a pause now (need to eat). Do you play any game JeffM (FPS)? |
| 23:38.27 | spldart | I do lament a game I love to play so much :) |
| 23:38.35 | spldart | boo hoo |
| 23:38.56 | alpha1-2 | you are funny spldart :) |
| 23:39.11 | spldart | I try... now back to slurping my ramen |
| 23:39.27 | spldart | I hope you enjoy what you can of this game. |
| 23:39.33 | spldart | it can be such fun |
| 23:39.39 | alpha1-2 | agree |
| 23:40.42 | Flash | spldart: you left before I could spank you properly |
| 23:41.02 | spldart | oui! |
| 23:41.13 | alpha1-2 | :) |
| 23:41.26 | spldart | I have to eat my noodles! |
| 23:41.37 | spldart | bbl |
| 23:41.43 | spldart | X |
| 23:41.45 | spldart | D |
| 23:41.48 | alpha1-2 | then you will get energy to play? :) |
| 23:42.05 | spldart | hopefully... I'm really old n'stuff |
| 23:42.06 | Flash | no, then he will have to take a nap |
| 23:42.14 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 23:42.16 | spldart | Right |
| 23:42.33 | alpha1-2 | oh man, I start worrying :) |
| 23:42.38 | alpha1-2 | (joke) |
| 23:42.42 | Flash | if my failing memory serves me, spldart is even older than I am |
| 23:42.49 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 23:42.54 | alpha1-2 | we are all older! |
| 23:42.57 | spldart | I'm so old my daughters have all moved out my house... but not before I raised them all on dual boot machines.... windows and debian linux... |
| 23:42.58 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 23:43.12 | spldart | and blast and jeff have much credit to take on that |
| 23:43.14 | alpha1-2 | (or elders?) |
| 23:43.20 | spldart | thanks to them and many others |
| 23:48.12 | alpha1-2 | JeffM: Or just write a game model (about networking) you like too much (to follow as an example). |
| 23:48.13 | alpha1-2 | When I was telling "client/server model" I was refering to a some old discussion here (to me) about authoritative server vs "silly" server, that is some related to the lag issue, I understand. I will go now and read the log. Or we can continue later (other day). Thanks! It was a nice talk. |
| 23:49.33 | alpha1-2 | Thanks all* |
| 23:51.20 | JeffM | heh, standard linux user responce, assme it dosn't exist and ask for a new one to be writen :) |