IRC log for #bzflag on 20130612

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00:15.06Snake12534Evening Ashvala _ UGT
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16:17.39Notify03BZFlag:Alezakos * 8686 /Bz_getFlagName: Use the proper function name
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17:27.31Snake12534allejo
17:28.18Snake12534You quoted "You will be the first person to know when the bzbg62 port is open to be tested" It was online 2 days ago! You didn't tell me.. :( I was going to do like 10 officials there
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17:33.28JeffMdosn't GU have a channel?
17:33.59khonkhortisandoes it?
17:34.06Snake12534it does?
17:34.08JeffMit should
17:34.12ashvalaJeffM, good news!
17:34.14JeffMI belive it does
17:34.16alezakosIt does
17:34.19khonkhortisanwhere?
17:34.22Snake12534ok where?
17:34.23ashvalathe intel graphics thing's resolved on 10.9. ^^
17:34.25alezakos##guleague
17:34.28JeffMuse it
17:34.33Snake12534ok
17:34.37JeffMashvala, umm yay?
17:34.56ashvalaJeffM, yeup! 10.9 sorts out HD4000 nicely. :D
17:35.04JeffMgood for it
17:35.28Snake12534allejo isn't in ##guleague
17:35.36JeffMthen use /msg
17:35.45JeffMif he dosn't answer WAIT
17:36.20alezakos(FYI, alejo is on ##guleague)
17:36.30Snake12534Ah I see..
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17:38.48Snake12534Morning Rob5a (UGT)
17:39.02Rob5ahi
17:41.43kierrasnake knows gu has a channel, JeffM
17:44.11khonkhortisanI just found out about that now
17:48.41JeffMkierra, then that makes it worse :)
17:49.13JeffMashvala, now just get apple to not use custom video cards in that mac pro trashcan and they'
17:49.14kierraexactly
17:49.16JeffM'll be fine
17:50.07JeffMkierra, how old is he?
17:50.17kierra12
17:50.20kierramaybe
17:50.32JeffMdid GU get a coppa letter for saving data for him?
17:50.36kierrahe's just being a smartass
17:50.38JeffMand do you feel he's mature enough to be here?
17:50.42JeffMI know
17:50.46kierranope
17:50.50JeffMon both?
17:51.08JeffMbecause if you didn't get permision to store data for him you have to delete his team
17:51.09kierrawell, ask blast about Coppa.....he takes issue with my asking :)
17:51.20JeffMwe have coppa for him for our server
17:51.29JeffMgu is a SEPERATE server storing seperate data
17:51.34kierrahmm
17:51.36JeffMyou have your own site
17:51.53JeffMwhat data do you store per user?
17:52.02JeffMI know you use us for login
17:52.11kierragu site is on brad's server, we use global login
17:52.12JeffMbut I know you store other data tied to the BZID
17:52.18JeffMyeah but what do you store?
17:52.40kierranot emails like bzbb
17:52.41JeffMwe don't do all your data storage for you just authentication
17:52.55JeffMany posting data like a personal message or moto or names?
17:53.01bradblast went through this with me already Jeff
17:53.04JeffMok
17:53.08JeffMyou all good?
17:53.11JeffMcus COPPA changed
17:53.15bradI think he was going to look into it more
17:53.23JeffMmore data types require permision
17:53.26bradbut it was on me anyway
17:53.28JeffMyeah
17:53.45JeffMI belive if you let them post anything it counts now
17:57.35brad"It should be noted that this is an American law, and therefore it applies only to web sites that are based in the USA."
17:57.43bradreliable source: wikipedia :p
17:58.30bradit doesn't matter where the children are from, only where the server is hosted, apparently
17:58.53bradand seeing as we don't care much about kids in the UK, it's all good!
18:00.43bradOh, and I seem to remember countering the COPPA argument with: what about bzflag servers? They store more data from children than we do on the GU site. Any bzflag server hosted in the US is breaking laws by logging messages from minors (possibly)
18:01.50swiggYes, they store info, but not personal info
18:02.07swiggthe servers themselves do not store real names, addresses or emails
18:02.10bradhow do you define personal info?
18:02.15bradIP addresses aren't?
18:02.18swiggno
18:02.45swiggIP address ambiguity is how so many people are getting out of the peer to peer copyright violation claims
18:03.34bradwhat if a child uses their real name as their callsign?
18:03.44brador puts in their real email address in the email field?
18:03.47kierraeek!
18:04.07swiggYou would still have to have a mneumonic to connect them via other information
18:04.13brador tells someone their real name and it's then logged by bzfs
18:04.20bradwhich happens a lot btw
18:04.40swiggThat does not constitute registration info
18:05.05swigg`I do see your point
18:05.07bradwhy not?
18:05.15bradit's the same information
18:05.26swiggBut not cumpulsory
18:05.44bradnor is bzflag registration, but you still need COPPA for it
18:06.16JeffMbrad, where is your server?
18:06.21bradUK
18:06.55JeffMthat proably helps you
18:07.57swiggYou have to fill out a form with email and validation to get a regged BZBB account
18:09.08swiggI think it's the registration info rather than the generic info that draws the concern, but JeffM and Blast are the experts on this
18:09.44JeffMswigg, that used to be true, but it changed at the start of this year IIRC
18:10.08JeffMthey added a lot more to the list of stuff
18:10.23swiggI guess that a TOS with checkbox will be needed on future releases
18:10.34JeffMit's not the game, it's our online system
18:10.39JeffMand a TOS dosn't cut it
18:10.57JeffMthe law isn't about the end user it's about the host
18:11.12JeffMit's about us getting permision to store the data
18:11.27swiggunless the user is doing the violation
18:11.45JeffMnope, not how the law is writen
18:11.53JeffMit's to protect children not punsh them
18:11.54bradso how does that relate to bzfs? do all US server owners need permission to allow minors to join?
18:11.56JeffMit's not a great law
18:12.05JeffMno since BZFS dosn't store data
18:12.12bradwhat about logs
18:12.21bradprivate/public messages, callsigns, emails
18:12.23JeffMmaybe
18:12.25bradIPs
18:12.28swiggBrad: is someone giving you a hard time?
18:12.31JeffMyeah IP counts IIRC
18:12.43JeffMno we are just discussing it as a what if
18:12.44bradswigg: nah, just trying to get my head around it
18:12.51JeffMyeah it's just a complex subject
18:13.04swiggchildren do not own the IP address any more than they own their house number
18:13.15JeffMit's still considred "personal information"
18:13.22JeffMit's not an ownership thing
18:13.50swiggok... for the sake of argument. I am 43. I can't prove to you how old I am
18:13.59Snake12534If I hadn't exceed your expectations on COPPA yet, I will be glad to fill your requests to renew my permission.
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18:14.04swiggnor can you prove to me that I'm not
18:14.48alezakosQuick google search reveals that IP addresses do count as personal information, according to COPPA
18:14.51swiggMost laws, as written are not dependant on whether a law is broken
18:15.07swiggbut so much as if it is broken *knowingly*
18:15.21swiggIE: I had to pick up a customer's car
18:15.31swiggkeys were to be left in the ignition
18:15.37swiggI grabbed the wrong car
18:15.52swiggpolice were called out but I was not/could not be charged
18:16.02swiggbecause I acted on good faith
18:16.23swiggand the other car owner left their keys in the ignition
18:17.10swiggnow, if I came upon the other car out of thr blue and took it, even with the keys in the ignition I would have been charged/arrested
18:21.08JeffMswigg, we are protected by the fact that if you sue us you'd show that you are old
18:21.25JeffMrealy all the coppa stuff is protection against a parrent sueing a server owner
18:21.33JeffMit's not a criminal law it's a civil law
18:22.01JeffMalezakos, ok they may have not changed that yet, blast was reading some changes that had hapend/were coming
18:22.12JeffMI recall him saying he read that IP was going to be counted
18:22.29JeffMI'll have to read more
18:22.43swiggI guess just delete info if a claim is made then?
18:22.55JeffMtechincaly we could do that
18:23.02bradso if IPs are counted...that's not good news for bz server owners (in US) is it?
18:23.08JeffMand we do based on how much we feel the claim is true
18:23.12JeffMbrad, no
18:23.16swiggI would think there were some sort of time for compliance
18:23.23JeffMgoing 13+ really is the easiest way
18:23.36bradonly way to be compliant would be making it globally registered only
18:23.48swiggThat would cut town on teamkills as well :P
18:23.52bradheh
18:23.52JeffMswigg, if we got sued and showed that we deleted the data when we found out it would be hard for the judge to fault us
18:24.06bradwould also cut down on players though, it's too difficult to register apparently
18:24.15JeffMit's linuch time, have fun :)
18:24.23bradcya
18:24.38bradand with IPs, you'd also have webserver logs... :p
18:24.51bradmessy law, imo
18:24.59swiggdamned liberals!
18:25.28swiggYou cannot protect people from their own stupidity
18:52.14Notify03BZFlag:Alezakos * 8687 /Template:BZFS_API_Doc: Do not capitalise the first letter of BZFS API Doc pages
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19:30.49blast007game servers may not be considered as online services that are "directed to children"
19:31.23blast007http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/Complying-with-COPPA-Frequently-Asked-Questions
19:31.43JeffMahh good
19:32.04JeffMthe GU site could be tho right?
19:32.22blast007dunno, don't have the time at the moment to dig into this subject too deep
19:33.12JeffMhe's in the UK he can wait to be sued
19:34.13blast007"Foreign-based Web sites and online services must comply with COPPA if they are directed to children in the United States, or if they knowingly collect personal information from children in the U.S."
19:34.29blast007though I'm not sure how legally binding such a thing is
19:35.38blast007though it mentions commerce in that statement, so I dunno
19:38.17blast007the ammended COPPA ruling considers "Online contact information", "A screen or user name that functions as online contact information", and "A persistent identifier that can be used to recognize a user over time and across different Web sites or online services" as personal information
19:38.38blast007s/ruling/rule/
19:39.08blast007and that includes IP addresses
20:03.59alezakosblast007: Any progress with the geno plugins?
20:04.07alezakosI've made my own implementation of NoRogueGenocide.
20:04.34blast007I have them mostly written, but not overly tested yet
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