| 00:00.01 | tburn | I am guessing "no" because from what I hear, those kinds of jobs don't leave a lot of breathing room for other projects |
| 00:00.20 | JeffM | I don't think so |
| 00:00.41 | JeffM | but the time avaiable depends on what kind of game company you work for |
| 00:00.51 | JeffM | I have worked for some proffesional developers before |
| 00:00.56 | JeffM | it was meh |
| 00:00.56 | tburn | I suppose.. I don't know much about gaming dev (at all) |
| 00:01.46 | tburn | do any of the bzflag devs have other side projects they want to tell me about |
| 00:01.58 | tburn | or indie releases? |
| 00:05.41 | tburn | anyone here that tried gungame got any suggestions b4 I release it? |
| 00:06.34 | tburn | I'll clean the copyright stuff out of the mofo passion map Delusional -- and include it |
| 00:07.56 | blast007 | what does "clean the copyright stuff" mean? |
| 00:08.14 | tburn | I've been testing the gungame plugin on my box with a map from planet mofo |
| 00:08.22 | tburn | it has some trademark (excuse me) stuff in it |
| 00:08.23 | blast007 | and do you have redistribution rights to that map now, or were you just been given the right to host your own server with it? |
| 00:08.37 | tburn | I think Optic said it was cool |
| 00:08.41 | JeffM | trademarked? |
| 00:08.50 | JeffM | nothing is bzflag is trademarked |
| 00:08.52 | tburn | like there are "planet mofo" gfx and some other stuff |
| 00:08.58 | tburn | in the world file thats all |
| 00:09.03 | JeffM | those are not registered trademarks |
| 00:09.16 | tburn | naw but apparently if I remove them its fine if I redistribute |
| 00:09.29 | blast007 | that's what they said? |
| 00:09.31 | JeffM | under what license? |
| 00:09.46 | tburn | heh. well I was hoping Delusional would pipe up and tell me that |
| 00:09.52 | tburn | I intend to release the code BSD or similar |
| 00:09.58 | JeffM | you can't |
| 00:10.05 | tburn | I don't have to include the map |
| 00:10.07 | JeffM | the author picks a license |
| 00:10.15 | tburn | yes but... |
| 00:10.20 | JeffM | no buts |
| 00:10.21 | tburn | I don't know (yet) what he wants |
| 00:10.28 | JeffM | then you can't decide |
| 00:10.31 | tburn | yes |
| 00:10.36 | tburn | I agree |
| 00:10.42 | blast007 | tburn: by 'code' you meant your plugin, right? |
| 00:10.43 | JeffM | the author licenses it, you use the license |
| 00:10.48 | tburn | yes that is all I meant |
| 00:10.56 | JeffM | did you start from the sample plugin? |
| 00:11.12 | tburn | hmm I'm not sure |
| 00:11.19 | JeffM | how can you not be sure? |
| 00:11.20 | tburn | not at first, but I went back and generated the other files that way |
| 00:11.23 | JeffM | how did you start to write it? |
| 00:11.44 | tburn | I started by looking at plugins distributed with bzflag itself |
| 00:11.50 | JeffM | did you copy anything from the samples we had, or any code in our plugins? |
| 00:12.00 | tburn | yes I think so, though it is most likely all gone now |
| 00:12.12 | tburn | I was looking at Shockwave Death |
| 00:12.26 | tburn | I think I did a global search and replace, then started replacing bits |
| 00:12.34 | JeffM | dosn't matter, you are a derived work, you have to be licensed under LGPL then |
| 00:12.42 | tburn | thats fine with me |
| 00:12.44 | tburn | thanks for clearing that up |
| 00:12.56 | tburn | I do not want to make it more restricted that is all |
| 00:13.04 | tburn | which you are saying I can't anyway |
| 00:13.59 | JeffM | the LGPL dosn't allow relicensing |
| 00:14.01 | JeffM | so no |
| 00:14.12 | tburn | now just since we're still discussing this |
| 00:14.15 | JeffM | to apply your own license you'd have to have started from scratch |
| 00:14.15 | tburn | if I had used the SAMPLE plugin |
| 00:14.23 | tburn | that has no LGPL restriction? |
| 00:14.31 | tburn | oh I see |
| 00:14.36 | JeffM | that has the same restriction |
| 00:14.43 | JeffM | it's part of the souce distrobution |
| 00:14.48 | tburn | ok good - so I don't feel like i did something too boneheaded :) |
| 00:15.22 | JeffM | you did fine, people just don't always understand what they are doing with regards to licensing. |
| 00:16.04 | tburn | yes I'd rather not mess that up, which is why I asked Optic if I could use his map.. but he told me he didn't even write it originally, so I guess I should try and find out who did |
| 00:16.26 | JeffM | you can't really "mess it up" if you had released under an incorrect license we'd just ask you to change it |
| 00:16.32 | joevano | tburn: which map is it? |
| 00:16.43 | tburn | its the Passion of the FFA map on planet mofo |
| 00:17.00 | tburn | its square, 4 teleporters one on each side... symmetrical both ways |
| 00:17.03 | JeffM | is the map released on the forums anywhere? |
| 00:17.19 | tburn | uh I couldn't find it there. I don't recall exactly how I got it but I think it was on a server |
| 00:17.25 | tburn | as in, I got the stripped version :( |
| 00:17.33 | JeffM | ahh so you stole it ;) |
| 00:17.35 | joevano | http://wiki.bzflag.org/Passion |
| 00:17.41 | tburn | *click* |
| 00:17.43 | joevano | that is the flag history |
| 00:17.50 | joevano | map* |
| 00:18.00 | joevano | ducatiwanabe made it |
| 00:18.07 | tburn | this is definitely the map |
| 00:18.11 | JeffM | is it licensed? |
| 00:18.31 | JeffM | dosn't look like it |
| 00:18.40 | blast007 | no, it's not a released map |
| 00:18.56 | tburn | guess I'm out of luck then. NBD I won't distribute it unless I hear otherwise |
| 00:18.58 | JeffM | then you can not distribute it without a licensed version from the authors |
| 00:19.33 | tburn | word |
| 00:19.54 | JeffM | the problems surounding that map are common of what happens when people don't understand licensing and go by "well they said!" |
| 00:20.23 | tburn | yes I will make sure to not release it unless it goes on the forums first |
| 00:20.38 | tburn | by the orgiinal author, with stated uh, blurb |
| 00:21.51 | JeffM | it would have to be by ALL authors |
| 00:21.57 | JeffM | it's been moded by many |
| 00:22.02 | blast007 | yup, it'd be complicated for that map |
| 00:22.04 | JeffM | and it won't go up |
| 00:22.17 | tburn | if only there were some kind of forum where these people frequented... |
| 00:22.25 | JeffM | they don't |
| 00:22.28 | tburn | well, its worth a shot. |
| 00:22.32 | JeffM | most of the author's are gone |
| 00:22.38 | JeffM | it's an old map, it's been tried |
| 00:22.54 | JeffM | the mofo server owner should know what his rights are |
| 00:22.55 | blast007 | be faster to just make a new map |
| 00:22.57 | JeffM | you should ask them |
| 00:22.58 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:23.01 | JeffM | much faster |
| 00:23.19 | tburn | I can just not include a map |
| 00:23.24 | tburn | or stick to forum released map |
| 00:23.35 | tburn | If I start making a map, I'll never release the plugin |
| 00:23.46 | tburn | I'd rather get it out there sans map |
| 00:24.10 | tburn | heh "liberalism"? |
| 00:24.22 | JeffM | huh? |
| 00:24.27 | tburn | since when did politics come into play with bzflag maps :) |
| 00:24.34 | JeffM | it's not politics |
| 00:24.36 | tburn | at the bottom of the wiki page under "Controversy" |
| 00:24.39 | JeffM | it's just simple law |
| 00:24.46 | tburn | no no look at the wiki page |
| 00:25.01 | tburn | Originally, the map was designed for use on more conservative servers, however the map was hosted on a server network known for its liberalism. |
| 00:25.04 | tburn | this amuses me |
| 00:25.09 | JeffM | oh with that map, becaue some people broke the law with that map and thought that they should not have |
| 00:25.27 | tburn | oh is that what they're talking about |
| 00:25.38 | JeffM | that's just the server owner being full of himself |
| 00:25.42 | tburn | I thought mabye it was a "No Cursing" map |
| 00:25.49 | tburn | :) |
| 00:26.28 | JeffM | that would be an odd thing to put in a map license, but all is possible with licensing |
| 00:26.52 | tburn | well, since there is no license (apparently) |
| 00:27.03 | JeffM | there is always a license ;) |
| 00:27.09 | JeffM | the default license is "no rights" |
| 00:27.12 | tburn | this is the zero rights license |
| 00:27.23 | JeffM | I belive there is a verbal agreement between the authors |
| 00:27.39 | JeffM | that consitues some license but it's terms are not known |
| 00:27.53 | tburn | there should be some statute on game maps like there is on published books |
| 00:28.03 | JeffM | there is |
| 00:28.04 | blast007 | this is why I only hosted maps with OSI approved licenses ;) |
| 00:28.04 | tburn | where after 100 years (in gaming, this is like... 5 y ears) |
| 00:28.04 | JeffM | it's the same |
| 00:28.08 | *** mode/#bzflag [-o blast007] by blast007 |
| 00:28.17 | tburn | see Project Gutenberg |
| 00:28.20 | JeffM | a map is a "work" |
| 00:28.25 | khonkhortisan | JeffM, you made me do it http://garyes.stormloader.com/its.html |
| 00:28.28 | JeffM | yes the exact same laws apply to maps |
| 00:28.40 | tburn | I am referring to some kind of expiry date |
| 00:28.48 | JeffM | tburn, there is |
| 00:28.54 | JeffM | the exact same term |
| 00:28.56 | JeffM | 100 years |
| 00:29.00 | tburn | oh man |
| 00:29.11 | JeffM | the medium of the work dosn't change it |
| 00:29.45 | JeffM | the same copyright laws protect maps, books, etc... |
| 00:29.54 | tburn | I would like to think that someone will be playing some kind of bzflag in 100 years somewhere... |
| 00:30.13 | JeffM | I highl doubt a computer that would run it will exist then |
| 00:30.24 | tburn | but it runs on everything! we'll have destructible map elements! |
| 00:30.41 | khonkhortisan | we'll be using quantum computers with trinary or higher |
| 00:30.43 | JeffM | actualy as of last month it runs on a lot less |
| 00:30.58 | tburn | what is the newest build target? |
| 00:31.01 | JeffM | no more PPC, no more win 95 |
| 00:31.06 | JeffM | for what OS? |
| 00:31.12 | tburn | what are you referring to |
| 00:31.19 | tburn | it runs on a tablet or something? |
| 00:31.23 | JeffM | no |
| 00:31.28 | blast007 | JeffM: actually, we killed off 10.6 as well, which was an Intel-only version |
| 00:31.34 | blast007 | 10.5 was the last PPC |
| 00:31.34 | JeffM | we changed some of the language features |
| 00:31.36 | JeffM | blast007, cool |
| 00:31.54 | JeffM | we now only work on systems that have C++0x/11 compilers and libs |
| 00:32.02 | JeffM | so that knocked off a number of old things |
| 00:32.10 | tburn | oh less things not less/smaller hardware |
| 00:32.13 | blast007 | now they're gonna have to pay $20 to upgrade to 10.8 (unless their system is too old for that) ;) |
| 00:32.37 | tburn | 10.6 is version for what |
| 00:32.37 | JeffM | did 10.6 have the app store? |
| 00:32.40 | JeffM | OSX |
| 00:32.50 | tburn | oh haha I know nothing about macs |
| 00:32.53 | allejo | 10.6.8 @ JeffM |
| 00:32.59 | JeffM | then that'd be it |
| 00:33.13 | JeffM | and we probably don't do IRIX anymore |
| 00:33.17 | tburn | they could just install linux tho amirite? |
| 00:33.18 | JeffM | for similar reasons |
| 00:33.24 | JeffM | possibly |
| 00:33.31 | JeffM | if they wanted to on a mac |
| 00:33.44 | JeffM | and the linux had GCC 4.4 or later |
| 00:33.50 | tburn | yellow dog, it used to be called... not sure now |
| 00:35.01 | tburn | I discovered bzflag b/c it was one of the bundled games with either RedHat or Ubuntu like 7 years ago |
| 00:35.13 | tburn | I guess it would have to have been red hat |
| 00:35.22 | JeffM | it has been a package in several distroubtions for a long time |
| 00:35.32 | JeffM | debian the longest I belive |
| 00:37.12 | JeffM | looks like beOS support is gone too, tho haiku can be built with gcc4 support |
| 00:42.17 | *** part/#bzflag tburn (~dan@pool-74-96-158-123.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 00:43.32 | *** join/#bzflag tburn (~dan@pool-74-96-158-123.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 00:46.01 | Snake12534_ | hi tburn |
| 00:46.46 | tburn | hi snake I understand you are learning PHP? |
| 00:46.53 | tburn | I do not know PHP at all |
| 00:47.09 | Snake12534_ | yes, ah |
| 00:47.18 | tburn | this is not a good place to talk about that either |
| 00:47.30 | Snake12534_ | i agree |
| 00:47.42 | tburn | you can message me instead if u want, but I can't really help |
| 00:48.22 | Snake12534_ | np :] got other's ppl help thx |
| 00:50.40 | Snake12534_ | goodbye |
| 00:50.45 | *** part/#bzflag Snake12534_ (4cfe272f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.254.39.47) |
| 00:53.45 | tburn | yall see how I did that there? yeah. |
| 00:55.12 | tburn | blast - bzdb server variables |
| 00:55.23 | tburn | how expensive is a lookup |
| 00:55.38 | blast007 | $5 |
| 00:55.43 | JeffM | 24$ for a full set |
| 00:55.50 | tburn | nice. |
| 00:55.50 | JeffM | we are having a sale this week |
| 00:56.11 | tburn | If I order now, JeffM will send me a mini milled tank |
| 00:56.22 | JeffM | nope |
| 00:56.42 | tburn | sad banana |
| 00:57.32 | tburn | so do bzdb var updates get pushed to clients |
| 00:57.37 | tburn | or is each lookup a request |
| 00:57.38 | blast007 | yes |
| 00:57.38 | JeffM | yes |
| 00:57.44 | tburn | yes and then no? |
| 00:57.49 | tburn | alright tx |
| 00:57.49 | blast007 | gets pused on a change |
| 00:57.50 | JeffM | they are pushed |
| 00:57.54 | blast007 | pushed* |
| 00:58.06 | tburn | excellent |
| 00:58.57 | tburn | here's a dumb question |
| 00:59.07 | tburn | I build a .so file for the plugin - how does that work with a windows client |
| 00:59.13 | JeffM | it dosn't |
| 00:59.26 | JeffM | you have to rebuild to a dll |
| 00:59.39 | JeffM | the .so you have is specific to your linux configuration |
| 00:59.40 | tburn | makes sense. I guess the Makefile handles that for me |
| 00:59.44 | JeffM | nope |
| 00:59.53 | JeffM | you use visual C++ |
| 00:59.59 | tburn | me? I don't |
| 01:00.03 | tburn | I use gcc |
| 01:00.08 | JeffM | then you don't get a windows plugin |
| 01:00.21 | tburn | hmm.. pretty sure windows clients connected to my server and ran my plugin |
| 01:00.25 | tburn | mac too |
| 01:00.32 | JeffM | you are mistaken at how it works |
| 01:00.39 | JeffM | plugins ONLy run on the server |
| 01:00.41 | tburn | that happens a lot |
| 01:00.44 | JeffM | not the client |
| 01:00.51 | tburn | oh ok good. gotcha |
| 01:00.55 | JeffM | the server sends no code to the client |
| 01:00.56 | *** join/#bzflag swigg__ (~swigg@68-119-228-196.dhcp.ahvl.nc.charter.com) |
| 01:01.15 | JeffM | that would be a huge security flaw |
| 01:01.18 | tburn | indeed |
| 01:01.32 | tburn | here, execute me! |
| 01:01.41 | JeffM | that would be horrilbe |
| 01:01.59 | JeffM | it would also be impossible for for C++ from linux to run on windows |
| 01:02.04 | JeffM | well compiled C++ |
| 01:02.06 | tburn | right |
| 01:02.17 | JeffM | you are just manipulating the server state |
| 01:02.50 | tburn | alright so my earlier question is moot anyway |
| 01:02.52 | JeffM | it's identical to modifying the server |
| 01:03.26 | tburn | since the clients aren't evaluating the bzdb vars I'd be setting and reading in the plugin |
| 01:03.42 | JeffM | only some are sent to the clients |
| 01:04.01 | JeffM | and yeah, if you are setting your own then they are just for your use and storage |
| 01:04.04 | tburn | I have barely looked at any of the bzfs code - only really when there was something not clear in the API docs or missing |
| 01:06.30 | tburn | which I guess is an endorsement for the API being good :) |
| 01:06.44 | JeffM | it could be better ;) |
| 01:08.41 | JeffM | but it's good enough for a lot of stuff |
| 01:08.51 | JeffM | even if Tim didn't think anyone would use it :) |
| 01:11.14 | tburn | does bz_getBZBool() die horribly if the var isn't defined |
| 01:11.20 | JeffM | nope |
| 01:11.21 | tburn | it would be nice if you could pass a default value |
| 01:11.25 | tburn | :) |
| 01:11.29 | JeffM | I belive they all return false or 0 |
| 01:11.37 | tburn | good enough if thats true |
| 01:12.09 | JeffM | only predefined stuff has default values |
| 01:15.46 | blast007 | there's also a function to check if a var exists |
| 01:18.06 | tburn | I saw that blast but thx |
| 01:18.30 | tburn | thats why I was wondering if I needed to check b4 I tried to fetch the value |
| 01:18.51 | tburn | so about that local sound crashing issue -- any idea if its more likely in a laggy client? |
| 01:19.02 | tburn | I don't know why lag would matter |
| 01:19.41 | tburn | that would be triggering sounds from a plugin |
| 01:19.57 | JeffM | no it's crap code on the client |
| 01:20.08 | tburn | some library bzflag client links to? |
| 01:20.12 | JeffM | nope |
| 01:20.34 | tburn | right it happened when the client in question did not even have the file |
| 01:20.37 | JeffM | the sound system is very specific to the game |
| 01:20.40 | JeffM | yep |
| 01:20.54 | tburn | anyone working on this? |
| 01:21.16 | tburn | I can see how it would be hard to reproduce in an environment where u couild trace it down |
| 01:21.16 | JeffM | it requires us to break protocoll so it has to wait for the next major.minor |
| 01:21.31 | JeffM | oh I know how to fix it |
| 01:21.42 | tburn | oh? I'm curious if u feel like talkin |
| 01:21.43 | JeffM | redo it all in openAL and give sounds a caching system like we do for textures |
| 01:22.24 | tburn | that will be 3.2? |
| 01:22.29 | *** join/#bzflag Snake12534_ (4cfe272f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.254.39.47) |
| 01:22.48 | tburn | General Resource Updates and Downloads (sounds, scripts etc..)? - is this that milestone? |
| 01:22.51 | JeffM | the next version would be 2.6 more then likely |
| 01:23.00 | JeffM | shure |
| 01:23.17 | allejo | why was 2.2 skipped? |
| 01:23.31 | JeffM | long story |
| 01:23.32 | Snake12534_ | It was destroyed. |
| 01:23.34 | blast007 | because we had a 2.1 that became 2.99.x |
| 01:23.38 | blast007 | Snake12534_: shut up. |
| 01:23.45 | JeffM | yeah we changed versioning inbetween |
| 01:24.03 | JeffM | moved from major breaking to minor breaking |
| 01:24.12 | allejo | ah that makes sense |
| 01:24.20 | tburn | so there is very little interest in fixing the sound bug because the sound code is going away |
| 01:24.22 | JeffM | then 2.99 stalled and we backported some stuff to 2.3 to become 2.4 |
| 01:24.37 | JeffM | there is little interesting in fixing many things ;) |
| 01:24.48 | tburn | I think plugin sounds would be huge! |
| 01:25.11 | JeffM | not huge enough to have anyone decide to work on it during 2.3 |
| 01:25.13 | JeffM | or 2.99 |
| 01:25.19 | JeffM | but yes it would be nice to have |
| 01:25.47 | JeffM | it's not locked 3.2, the roadmap is just a series of guesses and sugestions, with proper backing anything can move down |
| 01:25.50 | tburn | I guess fixing it would involve running a bunch of clients in gdb with plugin sounds enabled |
| 01:25.56 | JeffM | no |
| 01:26.02 | blast007 | if we decide to move forward with it, it's not something that would probably be that invasive of a change |
| 01:26.05 | JeffM | just refactoring the sound code |
| 01:26.19 | JeffM | update the cache to do sounds |
| 01:26.24 | JeffM | add search paths to the sound system |
| 01:26.32 | JeffM | come up with some kind of ID system for them |
| 01:26.35 | tburn | it sounds like you want to work around the bug instead of find / fix the bug |
| 01:26.51 | tburn | I'm probably misunderstanding the nature of the bug itself |
| 01:26.57 | JeffM | the major bug is that the sound system dosn't always find the file |
| 01:26.58 | tburn | but it sounds like some kind of seg fault |
| 01:27.03 | blast007 | have plugins register sounds so the client can pre-cache them |
| 01:27.08 | JeffM | by extending the caching system and making the sound system find the file then it'll be fine |
| 01:27.12 | tburn | so it should just handle that nicely by not dying :) |
| 01:27.18 | JeffM | sure |
| 01:27.26 | JeffM | the client dosn't do that |
| 01:27.28 | tburn | so thats probably like a 1-liner :) |
| 01:27.32 | JeffM | possibly |
| 01:27.35 | JeffM | but there are other issues |
| 01:27.40 | tburn | I would like to fix this one liner if possible |
| 01:27.43 | tburn | oh? |
| 01:27.49 | JeffM | sounds aren't stored in the same way on all OSs |
| 01:28.00 | JeffM | so one client would play a sound and others won't |
| 01:28.12 | tburn | that is ok my beef is the crashing client |
| 01:28.15 | JeffM | we disabled it untill we could ensure that ALL clients can have the same features |
| 01:28.17 | tburn | I see your point |
| 01:28.29 | tburn | you disabled it? |
| 01:28.38 | JeffM | we shoud have |
| 01:28.41 | tburn | ahahah |
| 01:28.45 | tburn | it does work.... some times :) |
| 01:28.45 | JeffM | I belive we removed the API call |
| 01:28.52 | JeffM | it's still there? |
| 01:28.55 | blast007 | no.. it's still there ;) |
| 01:28.55 | tburn | yessir |
| 01:28.57 | allejo | the api call for sounds is still there |
| 01:29.00 | tburn | I have used it |
| 01:29.00 | JeffM | suck |
| 01:29.04 | tburn | it was fun |
| 01:29.16 | JeffM | time to fix that then |
| 01:29.25 | tburn | ack me and my big mouth |
| 01:29.34 | tburn | I was going to disable it with this shiny new bzdb var |
| 01:30.04 | JeffM | client consistency is more important then intermitent functionality |
| 01:30.14 | tburn | I had windows / mac and linux all working with the same 22KHz wav files |
| 01:30.31 | tburn | they put the files in different directories, but the files themselves were consistent |
| 01:30.32 | blast007 | tburn: how would a bzdb var help with that? |
| 01:30.49 | tburn | if the local sound calls were causing problems |
| 01:30.54 | tburn | I would disable it with a bool |
| 01:31.01 | JeffM | there isn't a var for that |
| 01:31.02 | blast007 | right, but you know it causes problems ;) |
| 01:31.03 | tburn | right now its a #define |
| 01:31.07 | tburn | yes but |
| 01:31.14 | tburn | not necessarily in a LAN environment |
| 01:31.18 | tburn | which was my original question about lag |
| 01:31.30 | tburn | tho, I guess we decided it would still cause problems |
| 01:31.47 | JeffM | lag never causes a crash |
| 01:31.48 | tburn | so go ahead and yank it out :) |
| 01:31.53 | Notify | 03BZFlag:jeffm2501 * 22731 trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx: disable sounds as they are not consistent on all clients and may crash the system |
| 01:32.17 | tburn | alright that answers both my questions |
| 01:32.58 | tburn | so that won't happen until we have the sound caching, currently slated for 3.2 but who knows |
| 01:33.03 | JeffM | and as for bzdb vars go, you can't set ALL the client vars just the ones that are flaged as from the server |
| 01:33.13 | JeffM | the client stores a LOT of stuff in bzdb that stays on the client |
| 01:33.22 | JeffM | like you can't change graphic quality of a client |
| 01:33.55 | JeffM | to make server triggered sounds real I'd also like to be able to do compressed sounds, that'd be much more useful |
| 01:34.23 | tburn | compressed like size wise or sound wise |
| 01:34.29 | JeffM | both |
| 01:34.37 | tburn | I was going to just call "bz_getBZBool("_playsounds") |
| 01:34.51 | tburn | and then if I wanted sounds, from the console become admin and set that to true |
| 01:34.58 | JeffM | why? so that someone could turn it on and crash clients? |
| 01:35.14 | tburn | so that the admin could turn it on if it was stable or if the crash problem was fixed |
| 01:35.33 | JeffM | even if the crash was fixed you can not ensure that all clients will have the fix |
| 01:35.40 | tburn | good point |
| 01:35.44 | JeffM | that's why we are waiting for a breaking release |
| 01:35.50 | tburn | yep I got ya |
| 01:35.51 | JeffM | so we are sure all clients have the same featureset |
| 01:36.41 | tburn | is .ogg the best bet here? are there licensing concerns with .mp3? |
| 01:36.46 | tburn | I suppose flac would be an option |
| 01:36.47 | JeffM | probably |
| 01:37.11 | JeffM | we'd have to look into what libs would be easiest to implement on all the platforms |
| 01:37.20 | JeffM | sound is currently a big mess on linux |
| 01:37.25 | tburn | right. indeed it is |
| 01:37.28 | JeffM | too many different sound systems |
| 01:37.28 | tburn | please dont drop linux :) |
| 01:37.49 | JeffM | it's the number 3 client so I don't think it'd be first on the drop list |
| 01:37.55 | tburn | there's ALSA, uh... I think thats the one ppl use these days |
| 01:38.02 | blast007 | pulseaudio |
| 01:38.11 | tburn | I recall that "causes problems" |
| 01:38.13 | blast007 | alsa and pulse are the to common ones |
| 01:38.18 | JeffM | OpenAL suposedly supports them all pretty well, and provides access to 3d hardware |
| 01:38.29 | tburn | then there was some series of others before |
| 01:38.30 | blast007 | pulse solves some issues, like concurrent audio access from multiple programs |
| 01:38.41 | tburn | that seems like an important feature |
| 01:38.49 | blast007 | iirc, pulse works a bit like the sound system in Windows 7 |
| 01:39.01 | blast007 | and it can also send/receive audio over the network |
| 01:39.04 | JeffM | so.. by that you mean "properly" |
| 01:39.08 | tburn | I feel like I've seen a few crash pulse messages in my console |
| 01:39.14 | blast007 | JeffM: well, it would be if it worked right ;) |
| 01:39.35 | JeffM | the cool thing about standards is that there are so many to choose fro |
| 01:39.37 | JeffM | m |
| 01:41.14 | tburn | one of my buddies suggests pulse has improved recently |
| 01:41.41 | tburn | oh yeah there was OSS... |
| 01:41.50 | JeffM | right now linux uses SDL, and SDL binds to whatever audio system it was built with |
| 01:41.54 | JeffM | so we don't care |
| 01:41.55 | blast007 | OSS is pretty dead |
| 01:42.17 | JeffM | but SDL dosn't provide any access to 3d hardware sound, just a buffer |
| 01:42.36 | JeffM | bzflag is currently doing it's own 3d sound processing including dopler |
| 01:43.08 | tburn | it does doppler? |
| 01:43.12 | JeffM | yep |
| 01:43.17 | tburn | I've never noticed |
| 01:43.21 | JeffM | the distances are so small it's hard to hear |
| 01:43.28 | JeffM | even with the tweaked speed of sound it uses |
| 01:43.29 | tburn | we should exaggerate it |
| 01:43.34 | JeffM | it is |
| 01:43.37 | tburn | for comedy and profit! |
| 01:43.49 | tburn | if u get WA it should be jacked |
| 01:44.05 | JeffM | huh? |
| 01:44.12 | tburn | wide angle flag |
| 01:44.14 | tburn | should disorient audio too |
| 01:44.17 | JeffM | ahh |
| 01:44.31 | JeffM | that would probably be easy to do |
| 01:44.44 | JeffM | not sure how many people actualy play with sound on |
| 01:44.54 | tburn | yeah I'm 50/50 |
| 02:09.30 | tburn | hmm here's a easy feature request |
| 02:09.34 | tburn | I think |
| 02:09.52 | tburn | I'd like to have a setting to make flags invisible |
| 02:10.20 | tburn | so I don't have to hide them in a box somewhere... I do know there is one for flags on radar already |
| 02:10.33 | JeffM | better to remove them |
| 02:11.30 | JeffM | but yes it's a viable request |
| 02:11.35 | JeffM | for the next breaking |
| 02:13.45 | tburn | ah yes better to remove them and go with attributes, esp since they all have to "exist in the game" currently |
| 02:14.00 | tburn | but yeah would be nice for whenever if thats sooner |
| 02:14.17 | JeffM | both methods would have the same client version requirements |
| 02:14.20 | tburn | 2.6 breaking? |
| 02:14.23 | JeffM | yeah |
| 02:14.26 | tburn | cool |
| 02:14.54 | tburn | when are you thinking the attributes thing might happen |
| 02:15.01 | JeffM | whenever someone does it |
| 02:15.10 | JeffM | in an appropriate version |
| 02:15.33 | tburn | heh |
| 02:15.53 | JeffM | currently we do not do assignments |
| 02:16.13 | tburn | I'm new to this whole volunteer code thing |
| 02:16.16 | JeffM | it would be a good feature to write a spec for |
| 02:16.31 | JeffM | that wold be the best place to start |
| 02:16.34 | tburn | are there other specs to look at |
| 02:16.40 | JeffM | some |
| 02:16.59 | tburn | where do they live |
| 02:17.04 | JeffM | the wiki |
| 02:17.13 | tburn | ah yes |
| 02:18.29 | JeffM | the simplest implementation I can think of is just a "remove flag" message to go with the "add flag" message |
| 02:19.19 | tburn | ah, I haven't gotten into the messaging yet |
| 02:20.20 | JeffM | it's just a packet with a specific 2 character code |
| 02:21.15 | tburn | and then a player could have 'n' flags |
| 02:21.28 | JeffM | no not add to the player add to the map |
| 02:22.15 | tburn | thought u were talkin bout the attributes thing |
| 02:22.36 | JeffM | that dosn't need to be implemented just to remove flags |
| 02:22.40 | tburn | no it doesnt |
| 02:22.53 | JeffM | so start with the smallest change |
| 02:23.08 | JeffM | removing the flag form the map |
| 02:23.20 | tburn | well the problem is I still need to be able to assign flags to players |
| 02:23.33 | tburn | so as things are now, they have to exist somewhere |
| 02:23.59 | tburn | u mean remove them from the map but leave them allocated in some kind of non-visible form |
| 02:24.02 | JeffM | yes you'd add them to the map then give them to the player right then |
| 02:24.05 | JeffM | no |
| 02:24.12 | tburn | oh i see |
| 02:24.12 | JeffM | there is no need to hide them |
| 02:24.15 | JeffM | just remove them from the map |
| 02:24.20 | JeffM | and readd them when you need them |
| 02:24.26 | tburn | yes dynamically adding flags an removing them would be easiest |
| 02:24.33 | tburn | I did not knwo there was a dynamic add :) now I see |
| 02:24.41 | JeffM | it's also the most useful for other features |
| 02:25.20 | tburn | oh man we bored a script |
| 02:35.13 | JeffM | what a what |
| 02:35.45 | blast007 | exactly |
| 02:36.07 | tburn | notify left |
| 02:36.09 | blast007 | seems like sagonet is as reliable as every |
| 02:36.11 | blast007 | ever* |
| 02:40.21 | JeffM | is there something else we can use? |
| 02:40.34 | JeffM | what are other projects doing? |
| 02:41.44 | blast007 | I had started working on a different method, one that polled the SVN repo. |
| 02:42.02 | blast007 | And would then allow other stuff, like a commit lookup feature. ;) |
| 02:43.48 | blast007 | Not sure if SmartIRC can do what I need, though. (Writing it in PHP..) |
| 02:45.55 | JeffM | have it talk to an executable that says connected |
| 02:46.16 | allejo | what about supybot? |
| 02:46.21 | blast007 | that would be the PHP |
| 02:46.58 | *** join/#bzflag Serchiean (4cfe272f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.254.39.47) |
| 02:47.19 | Serchiean | Hiya all. |
| 02:47.25 | blast007 | hi snake |
| 02:47.50 | allejo | oh god not him again |
| 02:48.06 | Serchiean | XAMMP download in progress. |
| 02:48.12 | JeffM | we don't care |
| 02:48.17 | allejo | ^ |
| 02:48.18 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o blast007] by ChanServ |
| 02:48.23 | allejo | ^ |
| 02:48.31 | khonkhortisan | I don't have his ip memorized yet |
| 02:48.48 | Serchiean | A little respect would make my day allego :) |
| 02:48.58 | JeffM | you need to earn that |
| 02:49.15 | JeffM | how you learn php is not our biz |
| 02:49.27 | Serchiean | I thought Blast cared O.o |
| 02:49.31 | *** part/#bzflag Serchiean (4cfe272f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.254.39.47) |
| 02:49.54 | *** join/#bzflag Serchiean (4cfe272f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.254.39.47) |
| 02:50.13 | JeffM | if he did, then send him a message not the bzflag development channel |
| 02:50.24 | Serchiean | Was I kicked? :/ |
| 02:50.29 | blast007 | kinda |
| 02:50.45 | khonkhortisan | I'm not familiar with that |
| 02:50.56 | JeffM | there are many fun things IRC Ops can do :) |
| 02:51.00 | khonkhortisan | it looks like your client agreed to leave |
| 02:51.13 | Serchiean | For your happiness Jeff, I'll private chat :) |
| 02:51.27 | allejo | not just for his happiness. everyone's sanity |
| 02:51.37 | khonkhortisan | what's that called that just happened? |
| 02:51.39 | *** mode/#bzflag [+q *!4cfe272f@*] by blast007 |
| 02:52.07 | JeffM | fun things |
| 02:53.25 | allejo | i'm with khonkhortisan, never seen a requested leave on irc o.O |
| 02:53.41 | blast007 | ;) |
| 02:54.17 | khonkhortisan | blast is above the regular ops |
| 02:54.32 | blast007 | nope, just know secret commands |
| 02:54.38 | JeffM | there are many commands that can be run |
| 02:54.50 | khonkhortisan | The way things are going, it looks like they'll stay secret |
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| 02:55.26 | JeffM | go read freenode docs |
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| 03:22.39 | tburn | hmm I kind of want to bastardize scoring here, not sure best approach |
| 03:23.31 | tburn | I'd *like* to make it so on every advance (kill) the "wins" score goes up by one... and on losses nothing happens... except on suicides where it goes down by one... |
| 03:24.07 | tburn | I'd like to be able to just catch and no-op all score changes |
| 03:24.20 | tburn | and then setPlayerWins() myself -- but it triggers the score change event of course |
| 03:24.24 | khonkhortisan | You'd make your own scoring system. Other servers do that too |
| 03:24.44 | tburn | its just that instead of doing an absolute scoring system (which wouild be cleanest) |
| 03:24.58 | khonkhortisan | You don't have to catch score changes, you can just do the opposite to undo |
| 03:25.00 | tburn | it looks like I have to make relative adjustments to what the in-game scoring system already does |
| 03:25.07 | tburn | yeah that |
| 03:25.32 | tburn | so I need to know things like "in a player die event, has the score already been adjusted for the winner", and "is this guaranteed" |
| 03:27.46 | tburn | nevermind I dont think the order matters |
| 03:31.45 | tburn | is it common to re-use "losses" and "tk" as other metrics :) |
| 03:32.45 | JeffM | you can just set the score to whatever you want |
| 03:33.18 | tburn | I haven't come up with a use for the 3rd one yet, but the 2nd one makes sense for "games won" |
| 03:34.52 | JeffM | 2.99 had arbitaray per player data |
| 03:34.56 | khonkhortisan | Just don't get someone kicked for tk |
| 03:35.14 | JeffM | the idea was to let the server label them and display them in the scoreboard |
| 03:42.20 | tburn | heh good point |
| 03:43.15 | tburn | I assume stats don't live outside of the server in some bz database |
| 03:43.42 | tburn | would be too easy to inflate ur numbers I guess |
| 03:43.58 | tburn | wouldn't want to tar someone as a TKer |
| 03:44.32 | JeffM | some do |
| 03:44.42 | JeffM | strayers site polls the servers for stats |
| 03:44.45 | JeffM | and stores them |
| 03:49.07 | tburn | I'll stick to wins then |
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| 05:56.52 | khonkhortisan | JeffM2501, you joined then quit then changed name then changed host |
| 05:57.54 | JeffM2501 | yup |
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| 10:35.29 | Constitution | oh my word... |
| 10:35.34 | Constitution | ~blast007++ |
| 10:36.33 | Constitution | ~joss is also an apprentice of Snake12534 |
| 10:36.33 | ibot | Constitution: okay |
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| 15:29.30 | kierra | I tried to warn him not to try your patience with nonsense |
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| 16:13.50 | Guest100 | Hi |
| 16:15.52 | khonkhortisan | hello |
| 16:16.27 | Guest100 | Hi khonkhortisan : Snake12534 |
| 16:16.45 | khonkhortisan | Your ip only half matches the previous one |
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| 18:21.43 | Snake12534 | Hola |
| 18:29.52 | kierra | howdy |
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| 18:44.41 | swigg | <yay>Oh boy. Snake is here. </yay> |
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| 18:54.10 | Snake12534 | Sorry, disconnected. |
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| 20:30.01 | Snake12534 | alezakos |
| 20:30.04 | Snake12534 | come to bzbg 58 xD |
| 20:30.08 | Snake12534 | we are watching epic replay |
| 20:30.26 | JeffM | the replay involves gilgamesh? |
| 20:30.40 | JeffM | or Homer? |
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| 22:18.02 | Guest850 | Blast, outta work? |
| 22:18.29 | blast007 | yeah |
| 22:18.45 | blast007 | almost outta pizza too |
| 22:18.58 | JeffM | how are the taco levels? |
| 22:19.14 | blast007 | holding steady |
| 22:19.29 | JeffM | Chalupas are nominal |
| 22:20.04 | Guest850 | Defrost your sandwich? |
| 22:20.29 | blast007 | heh, the word "nominal" made me flash back to the mech warrior startup sequence... "All systems.. nominal" |
| 22:38.12 | allejo | wants a Chalupa |
| 22:38.44 | JeffM | a cool ranch one? |
| 22:38.51 | allejo | sure |
| 22:39.00 | JeffM | double decker cool ranch doritos taco loco |
| 22:39.12 | allejo | sounds like something you'd find at taco bell |
| 22:39.27 | JeffM | it includes every ingredient they have |
| 22:40.51 | allejo | do they deep fry it also? |
| 22:41.05 | JeffM | I don't think they fry anythign actualy |
| 22:41.10 | JeffM | now that you mention it |
| 22:41.28 | allejo | ah good then it doesn't sound like a heart attack in a taco |
| 22:41.39 | JeffM | oh it probalby is |
| 22:41.43 | JeffM | or a laxative |
| 22:41.59 | blast007 | act now and we'll make it BOTH! |
| 22:42.04 | blast007 | while supplies last! |
| 22:42.32 | allejo | would the laxatives kick in before or after the heart attack? |
| 22:42.44 | blast007 | during |
| 22:42.54 | JeffM | they could be the cause |
| 22:43.12 | allejo | i'll have two! |
| 22:45.43 | Guest850 | lol I get ban out of topic.. to look at this xD |
| 22:46.19 | blast007 | this is more on topic than what you were doing ;) |
| 22:47.18 | Guest850 | haha php or tacos? xD |
| 22:47.32 | JeffM | everyone has experience with tacos, not everyone has it with php |
| 22:47.41 | JeffM | and notice nobody said "teach me to make tacos" |
| 22:48.52 | JeffM | if you had come in and said "hey php is interesting for websites, do you think it has use" then a lot more people would have been willing to talk about php instead of you asking to be told how to use it |
| 22:49.25 | Guest850 | some of bz is coded in php, not tacos xD |
| 22:49.31 | allejo | bz isn't coded in php |
| 22:49.35 | allejo | bz is all c++ |
| 22:49.39 | JeffM | if you had said "I want to make bzfs in php" we would have called you stupid and told you why it was a bad idea, but still had the conversation |
| 22:49.52 | Guest850 | some plug ins |
| 22:50.00 | JeffM | the bzflag project is made of multiple parts |
| 22:50.00 | blast007 | no, no plugins are in PHP |
| 22:50.08 | blast007 | the websites are, though |
| 22:50.08 | JeffM | some parts of it are web based and done in php |
| 22:50.11 | JeffM | like the list server |
| 22:50.15 | JeffM | it's a core component of the project |
| 22:50.17 | Guest850 | Tacos!!! |
| 22:50.31 | JeffM | so it's valid to talk about php in the context of how we use it |
| 22:50.54 | khonkhortisan | Do I get the shell or the meat first? Do I have to freeze it? Do I put the lettuce in the bottom or will it get soggy? :) |
| 22:51.40 | JeffM | go to ##tacobeam |
| 22:52.10 | allejo | that's a legit channel? |
| 22:52.30 | JeffM | all hail the tacobeam |
| 22:53.07 | blast007 | just had to check if that domain was taken, and it was :( |
| 22:53.15 | JeffM | heh |
| 22:53.25 | JeffM | you would have totaly bought it |
| 22:53.32 | allejo | tacobeam.com? |
| 22:54.08 | blast007 | yeah |
| 22:54.30 | allejo | http://date.me is going for $70,000 act now blast :P |
| 22:58.30 | allejo | blast007, I just bought tacobeam.me :P |
| 22:58.42 | allejo | got it for free since i had credit |
| 23:01.48 | JeffM | why? |
| 23:03.11 | allejo | why did i get it? or why did i have credit? |
| 23:03.54 | JeffM | the former ;) |
| 23:04.27 | allejo | i'll come up with something to do with the name |
| 23:04.42 | JeffM | make a php tutorial site! |
| 23:04.55 | allejo | at tacobeam.me? lol |
| 23:04.59 | blast007 | with taco analogies |
| 23:05.35 | JeffM | "think of strings as the cheese, they bind the taco/page together" |
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