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| 03:10.55 | allejo | anyway to disable /forceradar? |
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| 10:06.54 | blast007 | allejo: that only works in observer, right? |
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| 11:55.56 | alezakos | blast007: Yes it does |
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| 11:56.42 | alezakos | allejo: I think that setting _radarLimit to 0 disables /forceradar |
| 12:00.11 | alezakos | blast007: Aren't the copyrights on bzflag.org outdated? |
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| 14:13.30 | BulletCatcher | We should only update the copyright year when other content changes. |
| 14:16.55 | allejo | alezakos, ah i shall try that. thank you |
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| 15:06.55 | kierra | alezakos: done :) |
| 15:07.28 | alezakos | kierra: Thanks :) I screwed up the timestamps a little bit, didn't I? |
| 15:07.46 | kierra | i dont think so |
| 15:07.55 | kierra | seemed ok to me |
| 15:08.10 | alezakos | ok then |
| 15:08.19 | kierra | its not an exact science :) |
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| 15:14.45 | alezakos | allejo: Any ideas why the "no radar hix" has radar? |
| 15:15.59 | swigg_ | alezakos: Isn't *everything* on bzflag.org outdated? |
| 15:16.38 | alezakos | wouldn't say that |
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| 17:08.52 | blast007 | swigg: what on bzflag.org is outdated? have you even looked there in the last years? :P |
| 17:09.56 | swigg | Well, you guys are great. Some of the smartest and brightest people I have ever interacted with |
| 17:10.08 | blast007 | year* |
| 17:10.23 | swigg | But you guys are writing code for two dozen people |
| 17:10.31 | swigg | no one is playing anymore |
| 17:10.37 | swigg | makes me sad |
| 17:10.40 | blast007 | doesn't answer my question though ;) |
| 17:10.42 | alezakos | 100 people* |
| 17:11.17 | swigg | outdated. ok. that question |
| 17:11.47 | swigg | a product is not just important to produce, but you also have to tell people about it |
| 17:12.05 | swigg | Campbell's soup, kodak, Coca cola |
| 17:12.19 | swigg | all advertized during the great depression |
| 17:12.26 | JeffM | not a lot of effort goes into protucing it |
| 17:12.32 | JeffM | feel free to advertise |
| 17:12.42 | swigg | how? I tried facebook, etc |
| 17:12.52 | JeffM | it's because it dosn't work |
| 17:13.00 | JeffM | not with the game in it's current state |
| 17:13.08 | JeffM | it has no staying power with new people |
| 17:13.12 | blast007 | it's because it's not a flash game with hats you can buy |
| 17:13.17 | swigg | it's just sickening that there are games that truly suck that have millions of people playing |
| 17:13.23 | JeffM | they have many other things they can do for the same investement |
| 17:13.26 | swigg | and BZ does not suck |
| 17:13.38 | JeffM | from a gameplay standpoint you are correct |
| 17:13.47 | JeffM | from a user attachement point it does suck |
| 17:13.54 | JeffM | it's not very easy to get into it |
| 17:14.01 | JeffM | not compared to modern games |
| 17:15.44 | swigg | I am not being critical by any means, nor am I complaining |
| 17:15.56 | JeffM | being critial is the only way you see what needs to change |
| 17:16.08 | swigg | But I don't do the work, you guys do |
| 17:16.10 | JeffM | there is nothing wrong with being critial as long as it's constructive |
| 17:16.34 | alezakos | Many people, when they find out about bzflag, join the first server on the list, click and press random buttons, kill a few teammates, and just drop out, since no tutorial or tutor helped them. |
| 17:16.43 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:16.49 | JeffM | it does not help you learn how to play it |
| 17:17.00 | JeffM | and has many seemly inconsitent things that are not explained |
| 17:17.01 | blast007 | I had started working on a list of features I felt were necessary/helpful towards the goal of making the game more user friendly |
| 17:17.08 | swigg | I still think that if game controller integration was there it might take back off |
| 17:17.31 | swigg | I am a good technical writer; is a guide in order? |
| 17:17.43 | JeffM | swigg, I don't think the vast majority of the people on a PC would know to plug one in or how to use it |
| 17:17.50 | JeffM | we have guides, people don't read them |
| 17:17.52 | blast007 | the game should teach you itself. it shouldn't need a user guide. |
| 17:18.01 | JeffM | what was the last modern game you played swigg ? |
| 17:18.17 | swigg | dunno; something on instantaction.com |
| 17:18.38 | swigg | messed with C&C frostbite I think as well |
| 17:19.05 | JeffM | most modern games help you with hints and tips when you start |
| 17:19.13 | JeffM | they point you to beginer places, have tutorials |
| 17:19.50 | JeffM | if we had a more consistent user interface, a built in help prompter, and tutorials I think then advertising would be VERY much worth it |
| 17:20.09 | JeffM | I mean look at the main menu, you start it up, get a cursor then can't click on any menu items |
| 17:20.20 | alezakos | The best in-game "tutorial" right now is the help page. But even if new users manage to navigate to the "help" page, the only thing they see is a big (probably incomprehensible for them) list of mostly useless commands. |
| 17:20.30 | JeffM | join a game, get yelled at for killing red tanks when you are red, but you can kill black tanks when you are black. |
| 17:20.54 | JeffM | it's just going to take effort on our side |
| 17:21.11 | swigg | would delagation help? |
| 17:21.12 | JeffM | and a directed effort not just "add whatever feature you feel like adding today" |
| 17:21.18 | JeffM | big time |
| 17:21.38 | JeffM | we need a design and a plan for the end user experince and we need to push tward it |
| 17:21.40 | swigg | who is even in command? I would say you, but that might not be correct |
| 17:21.53 | JeffM | blast and I are project managers |
| 17:22.05 | JeffM | bzflag has traditonaly not had anyone "in charge" |
| 17:22.19 | JeffM | and that is what I think has leed to stagnation |
| 17:22.28 | JeffM | and some poor design choices |
| 17:22.49 | swigg | global chat and a "lobby" would be nice |
| 17:23.01 | JeffM | sure but that ain't going to get new players |
| 17:23.23 | JeffM | go play some F2P games on steam see how they introduce new players |
| 17:23.37 | JeffM | thats the type of experience that your average new player is looking for |
| 17:23.46 | alezakos | At least it would be an easier way for new players to communicate and get help from others |
| 17:23.51 | khonkhortisan | when we get server-side bots it would be possible to script a tutorial |
| 17:24.00 | swigg | or even see that people are there wanting to play |
| 17:24.03 | JeffM | yeah that was one of the goals of bots |
| 17:24.23 | JeffM | you should not have to chat to do matchmaking, modern games have matchmaking built in |
| 17:24.34 | JeffM | our server list is suposed to do that but it falls a little short |
| 17:24.47 | JeffM | it just shows the winer of the popularity contest |
| 17:24.50 | swigg | Ok: design a standard bot to help newbies |
| 17:25.11 | JeffM | then we need to finish server side state and shots |
| 17:25.29 | JeffM | can't have a bot with out a state |
| 17:28.18 | blast007 | even if we just get shots server side, that could help with some tutorials. (Shoot the target. Shoot the target by bouncing the shot off a wall. Etc...) |
| 17:28.19 | JeffM | I wrote up what needs to be done for shot manager, nobody else is working on it. |
| 17:28.29 | JeffM | yeah it'd be a great start |
| 17:28.54 | JeffM | that and the message dialogs would get you a basic tutorial system |
| 17:28.56 | khonkhortisan | Right now, you can't detect targets being shot |
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| 17:29.05 | JeffM | you can't track a full shot path |
| 17:29.11 | JeffM | so it's more then just what was shot |
| 17:29.27 | blast007 | this was the start of my list of what I thought was necessary to get a better user experience: http://static.bzexcess.com/bzflag_2.6_ideas.txt |
| 17:29.39 | blast007 | plus mouse navigation in the menus ;) |
| 17:30.10 | JeffM | you'd want rule tooltips too |
| 17:30.32 | JeffM | did we bacport the IFF and hud markers? |
| 17:42.51 | JeffM | I mean we can make it happen if there are enough developers willing to work on the tasks |
| 17:43.16 | JeffM | but we have to do it correclty, not just go off and each bust out some code, we have to work together on the same plan |
| 17:44.23 | swigg | clearl it'd not lack of want |
| 17:44.52 | JeffM | well you started the conversation with the indication that there is a lack of want, the playerbase is very small |
| 17:45.03 | JeffM | there needs to be enough want in the few developers that are left |
| 17:45.17 | JeffM | since the audience pressure is very low |
| 17:45.59 | swigg | No; you guys have the ideas and want |
| 17:46.14 | swigg | you know what you want, after all |
| 17:46.18 | JeffM | 3 people is not all developers ;) |
| 17:46.31 | JeffM | but yes, it is doable |
| 17:47.00 | JeffM | the challenge will be staying focused and not getting sidetracked by adding features that don't help tward the goal |
| 17:47.37 | JeffM | that and agreeing on the plan |
| 17:48.01 | JeffM | optimnaly we'd take the lists we have, expand them, make a spec page for each feature |
| 17:48.20 | JeffM | if it has graphical implementaitons, mock it up |
| 17:48.38 | JeffM | then get everyone to agree on it, and then we hunker down and implement them |
| 17:48.59 | JeffM | since every feature would be well defined it should be pretty straight forward to implement them |
| 17:49.41 | swigg | I think maybe that it's just that it works "good enough" for the moment |
| 17:49.59 | swigg | You have to get real rewards for effort |
| 17:51.52 | JeffM | it worked good enough 10 years ago, it dosn't work good enough these days, we all know it but nobody is willing to put the time and effort into fixing it |
| 17:51.55 | swigg | I mean, if you rewrite something with cleaner, tighter code, if it does something that is already working, albeit as a hack there is no oreal reward |
| 17:52.04 | JeffM | we all know the netowrking system isn't up to par with modern games. |
| 17:52.19 | JeffM | oh we could redo bzflag in torque in a few weeks |
| 17:52.24 | JeffM | it's be WAY better then what we have now |
| 17:53.07 | JeffM | the fact that we have a working 3d network game is not longer unique, there are many frameworks out there that can get you to that point |
| 17:53.09 | swigg | why not do an alpha build and keep it private? |
| 17:53.18 | JeffM | not enough developer interest |
| 17:53.43 | JeffM | we were also waiting to see how they worked out linux support |
| 17:53.57 | JeffM | well OSX supprot really |
| 17:54.06 | JeffM | linux is the minority client |
| 17:54.36 | JeffM | but there are a ton of other systems that could be use |
| 17:54.42 | JeffM | quake would even work |
| 17:55.17 | swigg | so long as legacy maps could be converted |
| 17:55.25 | JeffM | anything can be converted |
| 17:55.40 | JeffM | it's just polygons |
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| 17:56.30 | swigg | what about a prize system? maybe a bottle of nice scotch up for grabs |
| 17:56.48 | JeffM | I belive that would be illegal |
| 17:56.55 | JeffM | but yes a code bounty system would help |
| 17:57.00 | swigg | Scotch is not illegal; That would be silly! |
| 17:57.09 | JeffM | trading it for work ;) |
| 17:57.27 | swigg | Ok; a coupon good for redemption of a bottle of scotch |
| 17:57.27 | JeffM | there are implications of using age restricted materials as a reward |
| 17:57.51 | swigg | make it butterscotch for the youngsters |
| 17:57.54 | JeffM | the common way to do developer motivation is code bounties |
| 17:58.57 | swigg | I would put up a bottle of 8yr old Tallisker's |
| 18:00.04 | swigg | or a bundle of Perdomo Fresco's |
| 18:00.38 | swigg | tickets to a sporting/music event |
| 18:00.51 | JeffM | this is why money is usualy used |
| 18:01.13 | swigg | money for Christamas was always my least favorite gift |
| 18:01.34 | BulletCatcher | Just offer cash. A specifc prize generally does nothing but reduce the set of people interested in earning it. |
| 18:01.43 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:01.53 | JeffM | your developer may not be where your event is |
| 18:01.59 | JeffM | or they may not like the specific item |
| 18:02.02 | swigg | put up a pool of "choose one" |
| 18:02.08 | JeffM | huh? |
| 18:02.20 | swigg | pick the prize |
| 18:02.24 | JeffM | seriously this isn't a problem that needs a new solution , many projects are using code bounties already |
| 18:02.33 | JeffM | you pay developers to write code |
| 18:02.38 | swigg | yes, but the prize makes it fun |
| 18:02.41 | JeffM | that's kinda how software development works |
| 18:03.07 | JeffM | honestly if you are serious about it you don't care about "fun" you care about the end results. |
| 18:03.28 | JeffM | your fun just makes it harder to get things done and limits the potential developers |
| 18:03.42 | JeffM | you say "this feature is worth 100$" |
| 18:03.46 | swigg | that's the idea; I am not a coder; just an interested contributor |
| 18:03.47 | JeffM | if you do it, you get it |
| 18:04.17 | JeffM | would you like to be paid for your work in tickets to see a band play halfway around the world? |
| 18:04.29 | JeffM | it'd be useles to you |
| 18:04.34 | JeffM | so you would not take that job |
| 18:04.38 | JeffM | even if you were capable of it |
| 18:04.51 | JeffM | yet if you are given the money you can do whatever you want |
| 18:04.56 | swigg | performors tour; it's just a matter of time till they get to your venue |
| 18:05.10 | JeffM | missing point entirely |
| 18:05.24 | swigg | Nah; I get it; I just don't like money |
| 18:05.36 | JeffM | then how do you feed yourself? |
| 18:05.49 | swigg | By charging my hourly rate |
| 18:05.54 | JeffM | exactly |
| 18:06.03 | JeffM | the world currently works on money |
| 18:06.07 | BulletCatcher | The cool thing about money is that you can exchange it for something you really do want. :-) |
| 18:06.15 | swigg | But Jeff, no one could have paid you to devote yourself to this |
| 18:06.17 | JeffM | solve world hunger then we'll talk about having other compensation methods. |
| 18:06.36 | JeffM | swigg, no, but they could have paid me to do more work |
| 18:06.47 | JeffM | you can't assume you are going to get a bunch of people |
| 18:06.54 | JeffM | that will work on it like slaves |
| 18:07.03 | JeffM | you have to offer to compensate them |
| 18:07.19 | swigg | well, ok, then maybe it's time to ask for volunteer contributors |
| 18:07.27 | JeffM | then you use the devotion to be able to pay them less then they would make at a real job :) |
| 18:07.38 | JeffM | not all tasks have code bounties |
| 18:07.41 | JeffM | just the big yones |
| 18:07.43 | JeffM | ones |
| 18:08.00 | JeffM | what ends up happening is you get people to start on the little ones to get up to speed to do the big ones |
| 18:08.04 | JeffM | then they become devoted |
| 18:08.12 | JeffM | carrot on a stick thing |
| 18:08.20 | JeffM | again this is in use in MANY other projects |
| 18:11.08 | JeffM | it sounds like you are trying to force a close nit developer community into existing, you can't do that it has to form over time |
| 18:11.26 | JeffM | what you can do is provide incentives for people to stay for that time |
| 18:11.27 | swigg | thought you guys already had that |
| 18:11.48 | JeffM | we do |
| 18:11.54 | JeffM | see how well that alone has worked out? |
| 18:12.06 | swigg | no; I am an outsider |
| 18:12.16 | JeffM | you see the results |
| 18:12.22 | JeffM | the very thing you are discussing |
| 18:12.31 | JeffM | so that obviously isn't enough on it's own |
| 18:13.13 | JeffM | you throw code bounties into the mix, you'll see some of those developers who have dropped off pop back in when they are bored ;) |
| 18:14.57 | JeffM | they just need small nudges |
| 18:17.27 | Notify | 03BZFlag:bullet_catcher * 22712 trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfs.cxx: Use a copy of a const data string for events because the handlers have permission to modify it. |
| 18:18.32 | JeffM | see if we had a 100$ bounty for a feature, BulletCatcher would have thought about doing that before making small const changes that don't affect the end user in any way ;) |
| 18:20.54 | BulletCatcher | Although the const changes (when done correctly) don't have any effects visible to players, they do help provide assurance that the code is working the way we intend it to. |
| 18:21.02 | JeffM | true |
| 18:21.17 | JeffM | but would you have looked at making 100$ first? :) |
| 18:22.07 | JeffM | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:22.20 | BulletCatcher | If we had a bounty system, I would be more likely to put funds into it than take them out. :-) |
| 18:22.50 | JeffM | well you'd want to let the developer volenteer to not take the bounty |
| 18:23.01 | JeffM | just use the bounties as weights for features |
| 18:25.03 | BulletCatcher | If I weren't already a core developer I would certainly be more interested in helping with changes that could earn me money. |
| 18:26.26 | BulletCatcher | And $100 ought to be enough to motivate some of our so-inclined teenage players to learn c++. |
| 18:26.57 | khonkhortisan | if the teenage players already know c++, it's even more of an incentive |
| 18:35.00 | BulletCatcher | Does anyone know which "app" at https://sourceforge.net/auth/subscriptions/ I need to disable to stop e-mail notifications of bzflag commits? |
| 18:35.26 | blast007 | iirc, go to the 'code' section and click the envelope icon |
| 18:39.09 | BulletCatcher | Found it. Thanks. |
| 18:39.38 | BulletCatcher | That corresponds to the "code" app on the subscriptions page. |
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| 19:36.35 | JeffM | but I love getting an email from BulletCatcher every day or so |
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| 19:54.53 | blast007 | JeffM: then you can leave yours set to subscribe ;) |
| 20:20.35 | brlcad | yeah, those new redundant diffless commit emails are a little annoying |
| 20:21.24 | alezakos | is still subscribed to the bzflag-commits mailing list |
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| 20:28.57 | blast007 | alezakos: that one is actually useful, unlike these new commit notifications. |
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| 21:15.16 | JeffM | I like them just because it gives me an idea of general activity like notify does but when I'm not looking at IRC |
| 21:16.18 | allejo | alezakos, I have no idea I didn't even know a "no radar hix" existed o.O |
| 21:17.50 | alezakos | allejo: Hosting.BZAddict.net:5217 |
| 21:18.36 | allejo | i just learned someone was hosting a no radar hix :P |
| 21:41.10 | alezakos | How is /forceradar supposed to be useful? |
| 21:43.48 | allejo | it's supposed to allow observers to use radar but i'm not sure what the purpose of that is o.O |
| 21:46.09 | JeffM | an observer could see where all the teams are and "call" a game like sporting event with the radar |
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