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| 01:32.17 | khonkhortisan | Apparently it works, so it's the cxx that doesn't have them swapped. |
| 01:41.23 | Notify | 03BZFlag:blast007 * 22648 trunk/bzflag/include/MeshObstacle.h: Put things in the right order so we don't confuse ourselves later. |
| 01:41.51 | khonkhortisan | you beat me to it |
| 01:43.27 | blast007 | ;) |
| 01:43.43 | khonkhortisan | Is it important at all to have things named the same? |
| 01:44.26 | blast007 | for consistenty sake, yeah.. but the type is the real deal breaker |
| 01:45.08 | khonkhortisan | eclipse still isn't smart enough to find the function with the same name in the header file with the same name |
| 01:45.14 | khonkhortisan | Well, the type is still the same |
| 01:45.28 | blast007 | yeah, that's what I mean |
| 01:45.49 | blast007 | if we had an int and a bool swapped around, the compiler would complain that it couldn't find a matching definition |
| 01:46.15 | khonkhortisan | It would've changed the behavior if it was the cxx that was wrong |
| 01:47.07 | blast007 | if the cxx had them backwards, we'd have had to gone and changed every call to that function |
| 01:48.10 | khonkhortisan | What does a double semicolon do? |
| 01:48.18 | blast007 | waste a byte |
| 01:48.34 | khonkhortisan | so not as lethal as a double bracket |
| 01:48.36 | blast007 | where you seeing that? |
| 01:49.06 | khonkhortisan | one of the warnings eclipse gives me is No break at the end of this case in bzfsAPI.cxx where it says "break;;" |
| 01:50.05 | alpha1-2 | maybe u need break; break; |
| 01:50.22 | blast007 | break; dance; |
| 01:50.27 | khonkhortisan | case '.': { if (name[1] == '.') { return true;}} no break |
| 01:50.30 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 01:50.53 | khonkhortisan | there was a perl program that had cut; slash; chop; and similar commands |
| 01:51.14 | alpha1-2 | if I am not wrong |
| 01:51.26 | alpha1-2 | It can be possible in th end of case sentence |
| 01:51.49 | alpha1-2 | and if there is a "warning", no necessarely is an future error |
| 01:52.27 | alpha1-2 | not all warnings are relevant i mean |
| 01:52.45 | alpha1-2 | see preferabely the "errors" allways |
| 01:53.18 | blast007 | alpha1-2: this is just a warning in his IDE |
| 01:53.29 | blast007 | not from his compiler |
| 01:53.37 | khonkhortisan | my ide that has problems finding function definitions |
| 01:53.44 | alpha1-2 | yes but the eclipse IDE is compiling right? |
| 01:53.48 | khonkhortisan | no |
| 01:53.49 | blast007 | no |
| 01:53.52 | alpha1-2 | noh ok |
| 01:53.54 | blast007 | gcc is the compiler |
| 01:53.55 | khonkhortisan | that would give it too much control |
| 01:54.02 | blast007 | gcc/g++ |
| 01:54.08 | khonkhortisan | autogen, configure, make |
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| 01:54.31 | khonkhortisan | break; dance; short_circuited the irc |
| 01:54.48 | alpha1-2 | yes, i understand that u use gcc as compiler, but ar you using Eclipse for compilir through gcc? |
| 01:54.57 | alpha1-2 | comile* |
| 01:54.59 | alpha1-2 | compile* |
| 01:55.24 | khonkhortisan | I use vi or kate for editing, then eclipse when I need "open call heirarchy" or mass search |
| 01:55.47 | khonkhortisan | I don't use eclipse as much as I could |
| 01:55.48 | short_circuit | bzzt |
| 01:55.55 | blast007 | I use Microsoft Visual Studio 2010 Professional ;) |
| 01:55.58 | blast007 | it's niiiiiice |
| 01:56.03 | khonkhortisan | Does it run in wine? :P |
| 01:56.31 | alpha1-2 | but when Eclipse give you the warning, when you make the build or something else? I dont understand, sorry |
| 01:57.03 | blast007 | http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=20359 nope! |
| 01:57.24 | khonkhortisan | I have to click the Problems tab to see anything. The only errors/warnings it finds are by it scanning the files. It doesn't interact with the compiler the way I'm using it |
| 01:58.28 | alpha1-2 | can you put here the entire message that it gives you please? |
| 02:03.34 | alpha1-2 | hi? |
| 02:04.40 | alpha1-2 | khonkhortisan: ? |
| 02:06.47 | blast007 | alpha1-2: it's really not worth a three hour discussion about :) |
| 02:07.14 | alpha1-2 | what do you man? about the last day discussion maybe? |
| 02:07.19 | alpha1-2 | mean* |
| 02:07.31 | blast007 | no, I mean I'm probably fixing it right now |
| 02:07.43 | blast007 | unless the double ;; wasn't the issue |
| 02:07.50 | blast007 | in which case, Eclipse just sucks |
| 02:08.12 | alpha1-2 | well, it was that I tryed to say, I think |
| 02:08.31 | alpha1-2 | but he doesn't answer me |
| 02:09.04 | alpha1-2 | i only try to help... |
| 02:12.06 | Notify | 03BZFlag:blast007 * 22649 (trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/ServerMenu.cxx trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/WorldBuilder.cxx and 5 others): Removed some unnecessary semicolons. |
| 02:42.23 | khonkhortisan | Eclipse gives me 9120 errors and 17 warnings. I don't know where to get the whole list. |
| 02:44.42 | alpha1-2 | what are you doing? :D |
| 02:45.03 | alpha1-2 | the spawnflag plugin still maybe? |
| 02:45.10 | khonkhortisan | no |
| 02:45.51 | alpha1-2 | ten? |
| 02:45.54 | alpha1-2 | nthen? |
| 02:46.14 | khonkhortisan | I open eclipse and go to a file in the bzflag project and I can get the problems list |
| 02:46.54 | khonkhortisan | like virtual method has non-virtual destructor, no break at end of case, unused function, could not be resolved, is ambiguous
|
| 02:47.25 | alpha1-2 | blast, I dont know if you are helping to him, i dont want to interrupt, seriously :) |
| 02:47.37 | alpha1-2 | blast007: |
| 02:47.42 | blast007 | I'm playing minecraft ;) |
| 02:47.46 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 02:48.22 | alpha1-2 | but it seems that you know better his problem |
| 02:49.15 | alpha1-2 | I recently entered, and I'm begginer in this chat :P |
| 02:49.58 | allejo | I'm pretty sure if blast didn't have that + and another person joins this chat, they'll think he's a beginner too if he starts talking randomly |
| 02:50.45 | blast007 | i can haz tankz?? |
| 02:50.49 | khonkhortisan | I don't have a plus. I'm allowed to say |
| 02:50.53 | khonkhortisan | How do I start bzflag? |
| 02:51.02 | khonkhortisan | Why do people keep shooting me?! |
| 02:51.17 | khonkhortisan | They're cheating! I jumped and shot them, but they didn't explode! |
| 02:51.31 | alpha1-2 | yes allejo, like me the another day :P |
| 02:52.32 | alpha1-2 | khonkhortisan: you are a noob, excuse me that I say you it! :) |
| 02:54.36 | khonkhortisan | Elipse misses some pretty obvious stuff. The error "Field 'current' could not be resolved" is from the line "int maxTeamSize = teams[0].current;" which goes to "std::vector<TeamSize> teams;" which goes to "struct TeamSize {" which has an "int current;" |
| 02:54.54 | khonkhortisan | I used eclipse's own "Open Declaration" button, but it can't use it itself. |
| 03:04.24 | alpha1-2 | khonkhortisan: why so many errors? |
| 03:28.40 | blast007 | it probably has so many because there's not a proper eclipse project file |
| 03:29.01 | alpha1-2 | ok |
| 03:29.01 | blast007 | doesn't know which files to look at |
| 03:29.43 | alpha1-2 | then isnt he really doing a compilation ? |
| 03:39.41 | blast007 | no |
| 03:40.41 | alpha1-2 | ok, and then why is he using eclipse? :P why doesn't he use gcc compiler output? |
| 03:50.39 | blast007 | cuz he's not compiling, he's editing |
| 03:50.52 | blast007 | you don't use gcc to edit files ;) |
| 03:51.39 | alpha1-2_away | yes but he is having his errors right now, and he is wondering about it :P... BTW what is he trying to do? |
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| 03:53.37 | alpha1-2_away | and, for be seriously, you need to compile the code after you edit it ;) |
| 03:59.42 | blast007 | yeah, but he's not using eclipse for that... |
| 04:00.38 | alpha1-2_away | [00:51] <alpha1-2_away> yes but he is having his errors right now, and he is wondering about it :P... BTW what is he trying to do? |
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| 04:21.31 | khonkhortisan | I edit with eclipse and then make outside of eclipse |
| 04:21.54 | khonkhortisan | eclipse knows very little about bzflag, and generates many errors because of its lack of knowledge |
| 04:25.03 | khonkhortisan | one of the warnings eclipse generated was correct, about a switch case missing a break; |
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| 04:57.11 | khonkhortisan | I'm just going to put the patch up there, maybe someone will give me another hint how to finish it |
| 05:04.05 | alpha1-2 | I would want to know first what are you trying to make (plug-in, patch, new feature, etc)? |
| 05:04.56 | khonkhortisan | It started as a plugin, but I didn't get anywhere doing that (would've been too difficult). It's a patch that makes it easier to define the world. |
| 05:05.29 | khonkhortisan | You can either add ricochet per-object, or (now with the patch) have everything ricochet and remove ricochet per-object. |
| 05:08.35 | alpha1-2 | do you mean add rico feature in each object (like wall, tele, pyr, etc) separately, not by a flag gotten by a tank as usual? |
| 05:10.06 | khonkhortisan | Yes, but that can already be done. You can already make a wall ricochet. You can alreday make everything ricochet. But what you couldn't do was make everything ricochet and then change your mind and stop just one wall from ricocheting. |
| 05:12.30 | khonkhortisan | My purpose for making a single wall that doesn't ricochet is for target practice where I would eventually have a plugin that checks if your bullet hit the target. |
| 05:13.14 | alpha1-2 | ok, I'm trying to understand... How do you make a normal (as before your patch) world nowadays? using an editor first (like BZEdit) and, after, making modification through text editor manually to map file? |
| 05:13.57 | jeffm | bzedit doesn't support meshes or attributes |
| 05:14.08 | khonkhortisan | I prefer a text-only editor. I've seen worlds that come out of BZEdit, and they're harder to read. They number teleporters when they shouldn't, use very long decimal numbers, and other things. |
| 05:14.24 | khonkhortisan | http://wiki.bzflag.org/Bzw is a good starting point |
| 05:15.05 | khonkhortisan | And if you use a text editor, there's nothing the world editor doesn't support. |
| 05:16.40 | alpha1-2 | well, I need some time now for read all this previous text and check this web (I'm not too good for english)... |
| 05:17.08 | khonkhortisan | What's your primary language? |
| 05:17.22 | alpha1-2 | spanish |
| 05:17.57 | khonkhortisan | ¡español! |
| 05:18.06 | khonkhortisan | I like fancy characters |
| 05:18.49 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 05:19.10 | alpha1-2 | ¡El español es un lenguaje bastante complejo ;)! |
| 05:20.14 | khonkhortisan | I could guess what every word meant except bastante. I can't read spanish without google tranlate |
| 05:20.32 | alpha1-2 | basante = too much |
| 05:20.36 | alpha1-2 | nbastante* |
| 05:20.53 | alpha1-2 | nno sorry |
| 05:21.20 | khonkhortisan | huh. google said it means quite. I don't trust google. |
| 05:22.09 | alpha1-2 | yes, "bastante" is a word that make me hard to translate to english BTW :D |
| 05:23.05 | alpha1-2 | I use often and directly the dictionary (in paper) and online (wordreference.com) :) its better than just a translator, because you can learn much more |
| 05:23.49 | alpha1-2 | but I think that quite is a good translation for this case |
| 05:25.03 | alpha1-2 | are you german maybe? |
| 05:25.33 | khonkhortisan | sprechen ze doitzch. No I'm not. |
| 05:25.50 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 05:26.05 | alpha1-2 | cause your name ( a few weird ;) |
| 05:26.23 | khonkhortisan | I made it up and it is so unique it has served me well |
| 05:27.15 | alpha1-2 | hehe |
| 05:27.19 | alpha1-2 | good! |
| 05:27.48 | khonkhortisan | sí |
| 05:28.55 | alpha1-2 | I was reading some worlds files and they arent too much hard to understand |
| 05:29.10 | khonkhortisan | yeah, every part pretty much has to be on its own line |
| 05:29.22 | khonkhortisan | it's very readable most of the time |
| 05:29.53 | khonkhortisan | just learned si without the accent means if |
| 05:31.19 | alpha1-2 | good! si: if, sí: yes |
| 05:31.47 | alpha1-2 | good wiki BTW, very interesting and complete... |
| 05:31.54 | khonkhortisan | it's too bad bzflag doesn't support fancy characters. I could hold a conversation like this in there then. |
| 05:32.18 | jeffm | 2.99 did |
| 05:33.03 | khonkhortisan | how long do you think it will take for 2.99 to go away (either all the features get backported or we actually start using it)? |
| 05:33.25 | jeffm | depends on what changes happen soon |
| 05:33.39 | jeffm | not sure if all the things from it will be back ported straight |
| 05:33.44 | alpha1-2 | oh, yes, I understand what do you mean... but when I have to write in spanish languaje I use this shortcuts: mañana (morning) --> maniana ;) .... teléfono /telephone) --> tele*fono ;) |
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| 05:34.37 | khonkhortisan | so you would type espaniol instead of espa~nol |
| 05:35.23 | jeffm | the font system and unicode support have a better chance of being done then others tho |
| 05:36.10 | alpha1-2 | sure, in all of cases in where isn't convenient to write spanish symbols (or others symbols) like a code we use this (previous) shortcuts for no errors :) |
| 05:36.53 | alpha1-2 | (well, marks we don't use in code, as I know) |
| 05:37.22 | alpha1-2 | as far as I know* |
| 05:40.28 | khonkhortisan | What I've been working on: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=3602935&group_id=3248&atid=353248 |
| 05:41.53 | alpha1-2 | one question, then, khonkhortisan... if actually you can edit the property of a single object, then, can you know nowadays if this object was hit? |
| 05:42.45 | jeffm | can who know if it was hit? |
| 05:43.00 | khonkhortisan | it depends on what it is that would be asking |
| 05:43.09 | khonkhortisan | the client, the server, a plugin, or a player |
| 05:43.22 | jeffm | only the client does shot and tank collisions |
| 05:43.32 | jeffm | and there are no events you can tie to any collision |
| 05:43.46 | jeffm | so the client may know, but it will never do anything in responce |
| 05:43.51 | khonkhortisan | a player would watch and listen. A client already knows where the shot would end (if no player gets in the way) |
| 05:46.06 | khonkhortisan | if the object is hit and the object doesn't make the shot bounce, a plugin would be able to check if the shot _exploded_ near the object. |
| 05:46.21 | jeffm | not really |
| 05:46.25 | jeffm | we don't expose endshots |
| 05:46.53 | khonkhortisan | http://wiki.bzflag.org/Bz_eShotEndedEvent |
| 05:47.01 | jeffm | huh.. I did that one? |
| 05:47.06 | khonkhortisan | oh there's no pos |
| 05:47.10 | jeffm | yeah |
| 05:47.19 | jeffm | the server does not track shots currently |
| 05:47.20 | khonkhortisan | expired has a pos |
| 05:47.42 | khonkhortisan | aha! http://wiki.bzflag.org/Bz_eShotRicochetEvent |
| 05:47.51 | jeffm | heh, that's not hooked up IIRC |
| 05:48.17 | khonkhortisan | What about bz_eShotStoppedEvent? That has a pos, and an obstacle. |
| 05:48.32 | jeffm | I believe thats only if it ends early |
| 05:48.39 | jeffm | if a tank says "i got hit by this" |
| 05:49.05 | khonkhortisan | oh well, I'll come back to it later. |
| 05:49.23 | jeffm | the point of my work on shot manager is so that we can have a shot state |
| 05:49.26 | jeffm | server side players need it |
| 05:51.37 | alpha1-2 | your current work or your finalized work? |
| 05:51.51 | jeffm | yeah ShotEnd is the only one of those hooked up |
| 05:51.57 | jeffm | the work is not done yet |
| 05:52.00 | jeffm | just started |
| 05:52.03 | alpha1-2 | mok |
| 05:52.05 | jeffm | it only tracks IDs now |
| 05:52.06 | alpha1-2 | mok* |
| 05:52.31 | alpha1-2 | ok* (I'm get used to BZ chat sorry :P) |
| 05:53.31 | jeffm | it will take a while to finish the shot manager |
| 05:54.08 | khonkhortisan | mouse menu navigation has to wait for a good font system |
| 05:54.17 | jeffm | no it dosn't |
| 05:54.35 | jeffm | currently it's a design choice |
| 05:54.48 | jeffm | some people navigate the menu and fight |
| 05:58.59 | alpha1-2 | ok, I remeber about bots that can calculate/anticipate shoot trajectory... can it be useful for this purpose maybe? |
| 05:59.30 | jeffm | useful for what purpose? |
| 06:00.23 | alpha1-2 | for the purpose of know where the shoot will finalize and in that point what object is |
| 06:00.41 | jeffm | that's the same code the client uses |
| 06:00.43 | khonkhortisan | the -solo bot does that |
| 06:00.56 | jeffm | we know how to compute the shots, it just has to be moved to the server |
| 06:02.44 | alpha1-2 | yes, I understan a few about shoots and tanks (hits), but according to what khonkhortisan wants (to know when a object is hit), maybe this can b useful |
| 06:02.52 | alpha1-2 | understand* |
| 06:03.06 | alpha1-2 | be* |
| 06:03.24 | jeffm | he doesn't need to know what was hit |
| 06:03.33 | alpha1-2 | or maybe this is "hard method" :P |
| 06:03.34 | jeffm | he needs to set the rico property correctly for the client |
| 06:03.41 | jeffm | the client alrredy knows what is hit |
| 06:04.40 | alpha1-2 | [02:12] <khonkhortisan> My purpose for making a single wall that doesn't ricochet is for target practice where I would eventually have a plugin that checks if your bullet hit the target. |
| 06:04.49 | jeffm | ahh |
| 06:04.55 | jeffm | yeah he can't do that for a long while |
| 06:05.08 | jeffm | a plugin can't use any client code |
| 06:05.23 | jeffm | his patch has to wait for the next protocol break anyway |
| 06:05.57 | alpha1-2 | uh :) |
| 06:06.29 | alpha1-2 | this means that plug-ins works only on server side? |
| 06:07.21 | jeffm | yep |
| 06:07.42 | alpha1-2 | ok, I hope that khonkhortisan read this :) |
| 06:08.09 | jeffm | yeah he's well aware of what plugins are |
| 06:08.16 | jeffm | this is not a new thing |
| 06:08.47 | alpha1-2 | ok |
| 06:10.21 | jeffm | once the server side shot things are done he could tell where every hit landed and we could make events for every collision |
| 06:11.34 | alpha1-2 | oh ok, I'm trying to understand.... |
| 06:12.02 | jeffm | right now the server does very little of the gameplay |
| 06:12.10 | jeffm | it does not say who gets blown up |
| 06:12.32 | jeffm | it does not know where all the shots are or where they will finish |
| 06:13.38 | alpha1-2 | oh ok, all are in client side... |
| 06:13.45 | jeffm | yep |
| 06:15.37 | alpha1-2 | I remember some feature about this.... the extended info about shoots, like what tanks would be blow up if the client don't have lag, etc... in which side are this? |
| 06:16.30 | jeffm | you are talking about a cheat, or extended observer info on the client |
| 06:16.33 | alpha1-2 | "Extended Observer Info" |
| 06:17.16 | jeffm | that tracks it based on the observers lag not no lag |
| 06:17.33 | jeffm | it doesn't take the target's lag into account so is often wrong |
| 06:18.01 | alpha1-2 | ok |
| 06:21.42 | alpha1-2 | and other memorie.... what's about the (I don't remember well, something only for researchers I think) program that based in a match played you can know if the shoot hit or not hit, in relation of real lag/no lag (I think that in server side) |
| 06:22.00 | jeffm | nope |
| 06:22.14 | jeffm | that is a special client some people have made that works on a replay |
| 06:22.20 | jeffm | the server does not have shot information |
| 06:22.43 | jeffm | that special client is not part of the project and not open sourced |
| 06:23.31 | alpha1-2 | oh ok , that program about graphic representation of tanks, trajectories and shoots maybe? |
| 06:23.50 | jeffm | I know of no such program |
| 06:24.23 | jeffm | one person had a packet logger once that would do some analysis but that as long ago and not part of the project |
| 06:24.37 | jeffm | but again it was all client based |
| 06:24.47 | jeffm | and I believe it just did simple shots along a line |
| 06:24.50 | jeffm | and was all 2d |
| 06:25.30 | alpha1-2 | ok, I understand what you say, all client side |
| 06:25.44 | alpha1-2 | or majority in client side |
| 06:26.22 | alpha1-2 | if I find that program I will give you the link (graphic representation), maybe it's the same |
| 06:26.32 | jeffm | I do not need it |
| 06:26.41 | jeffm | again, I know how to tell where the shots are going to go ;) |
| 06:26.48 | alpha1-2 | ok, yes, no prblem, other day, not today :) |
| 06:27.14 | alpha1-2 | ok |
| 06:28.10 | alpha1-2 | and the last question: you are making some server implementation for control the shoots but in server side, right? why? for what purpose? |
| 06:28.32 | jeffm | many reasons |
| 06:28.40 | jeffm | so that later the server can decide who gets shot |
| 06:28.55 | jeffm | so the server side bots can know where the shots are and blow up at the right time |
| 06:29.02 | jeffm | so that plugins can do fancy things with shots |
| 06:29.09 | jeffm | so that cheaters can not alter shots |
| 06:29.15 | jeffm | etc... |
| 06:31.04 | alpha1-2 | ok, but this will increment much the server work, finally, and you will need much more capability or not much? |
| 06:31.50 | jeffm | the computations are not hard |
| 06:31.55 | jeffm | and not time consuming |
| 06:32.03 | jeffm | most of the work on the client is drawing the pictures |
| 06:32.15 | jeffm | 99.95% of the time is spent doing that |
| 06:32.25 | alpha1-2 | oh, ok, 3D pictures |
| 06:33.47 | alpha1-2 | ok, I understand, but I have to take some time for do it better (3D, network, client/server) after.... thanks then ;) |
| 06:35.14 | jeffm | it's all just math |
| 06:37.02 | alpha1-2 | how many players do you think that a actual server with the new technology (server shoot manager) will would can manage? |
| 06:37.29 | jeffm | the shot manager will not change the player count |
| 06:37.33 | alpha1-2 | (excuse me my English) |
| 06:37.41 | jeffm | that is not it's intent |
| 06:38.38 | jeffm | the protocol is limited to 199 players |
| 06:39.31 | alpha1-2 | and an actual server could manage 199 players with all theirs calcules? |
| 06:39.42 | alpha1-2 | their* |
| 06:39.43 | jeffm | I don't see why not |
| 06:39.48 | alpha1-2 | ok |
| 06:39.50 | jeffm | really shot logic is SUPER simple |
| 06:40.02 | alpha1-2 | ok |
| 06:40.04 | jeffm | couple cross products and you are done |
| 06:40.11 | jeffm | computers are very fast |
| 06:40.35 | alpha1-2 | you are talking of new shoot manager right? |
| 06:40.48 | jeffm | shot computations in general |
| 06:41.59 | alpha1-2 | ok, excuse me if I don't understand well yet, but I think now is distributed, but in the future will be centralized, and the server work will be increased, am I clear? :) |
| 06:42.24 | jeffm | yes |
| 06:42.29 | jeffm | by a very very small ammount |
| 06:42.38 | jeffm | possibly too small to notice |
| 06:43.53 | alpha1-2 | ok, inclusive with 199 players at the same time, or maybe the same server running, let's say, 20 worlds with 199 players each one? :) |
| 06:45.06 | alpha1-2 | 4000 players!! |
| 06:45.07 | jeffm | you will run out of network bandwidth before you run out of CPU |
| 06:45.48 | alpha1-2 | oh hehe |
| 06:47.12 | alpha1-2 | do you know maybe what is the average player limit nowadays by network bandwith in a server? |
| 06:47.35 | jeffm | depends on many things |
| 06:49.37 | alpha1-2 | ok, I am only making my imagination fly :).... thanks for all! |
| 06:50.16 | jeffm | the network protocol is probably the least efficient part of the game |
| 06:50.52 | alpha1-2 | ok |
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| 15:10.07 | khonkhortisan | I can get clOptions in CustomMeshFace.cxx by including bzfs.h, but if I try to do the same thing in MeshObstacle.cxx, I either get "bzfs.h: No such file or directory" or "undefined reference to 'clOptions'". |
| 15:11.55 | blast007 | don't do it in the obstacle stuff |
| 15:12.02 | blast007 | that is used by the client as well, afaik |
| 15:12.33 | khonkhortisan | but that's where the line rico = rico || ricochet; is that sets a face to the mesh |
| 15:13.32 | blast007 | bzfs.h should not be included anywhere except in src/bzfs/ files |
| 15:15.58 | blast007 | the complication you're hitting now may be why there wasn't a 'noricochet' option implemented ;) |
| 15:16.19 | khonkhortisan | I keep expecting a circular dependency |
| 15:16.46 | blast007 | what part are you trying to do at the moment? |
| 15:17.00 | khonkhortisan | either meshes or groups |
| 15:17.06 | blast007 | handling a face that has norico? |
| 15:17.13 | khonkhortisan | yeah |
| 15:17.34 | blast007 | you may need to switch addFace to utilize an enum for the rico variable |
| 15:17.48 | blast007 | inherit, yes, no |
| 15:32.02 | khonkhortisan | So both CustomMeshFace.cxx and MeshObstacle need the enum |
| 15:34.33 | khonkhortisan | I'll just put it in MeshFace.h |
| 15:50.37 | blast007 | I may be giving poor advice since I don't have time at the moment to look the code over in detail, nor am I familiar with this part of the code |
| 15:51.53 | khonkhortisan | The mesh creates a face when it is created. While the mesh loads, it creates faces and stores them in a list when they are done. When the mesh is done, the faces get the mesh rico added to them. |
| 15:55.45 | blast007 | I mean I'm not sure about the bigger picture |
| 15:56.06 | blast007 | so sure, if I'm looking at a file or two, I might say "yeah, makes sense to put the enum in MeshFace.h" |
| 15:56.39 | khonkhortisan | The bigger picture is if I change a bool to an enum, I have to change all the files that are based on that addFace/addMesh function |
| 15:57.01 | khonkhortisan | I'll probably move it when I find a file that can't see it from there |
| 15:58.21 | blast007 | just wondering if it's more generic |
| 15:58.58 | blast007 | is an enum for this ONLY needed for mesh faces? or would it also be needed for objects within a group? (say, the group has 'ricochet', but a box within the group has 'noricochet') |
| 16:00.51 | blast007 | but on that note, the obstacle classes for other stuff may not know what their "parent" container is, and thus won't know what to inherit |
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| 17:53.56 | khonkhortisan | If an object was in a group, they both would need an enum so that neither overrode the other |
| 17:57.01 | blast007 | the group setting would define the default behavior for things within the define |
| 17:57.25 | blast007 | they wouldn't have a circular dependency |
| 17:57.43 | JeffM | good job gizmiodo, blame all of open source for the actions of a few idiots :/ |
| 17:57.55 | blast007 | it's a cascading hierarchy |
| 17:58.24 | khonkhortisan | Where do I go when I pause that when I come back I _land_ back in reality? |
| 17:58.41 | khonkhortisan | So a group wouldn't need both a "ricochet" and a "forcericochet" |
| 17:59.33 | blast007 | JeffM: wow.. yeah... sensationalist headline |
| 17:59.44 | blast007 | "omg, we found bad words in some source code!" |
| 17:59.58 | JeffM | did they hire some people from slashdot maybe? |
| 18:00.02 | khonkhortisan | global ricochet with some objects and a group not ricocheting, with some objects in the group ricocheting. You should be able to reverse the default over and over |
| 18:00.34 | JeffM | I haven't been paying attention to all the details of your rico thing but it sounds like it's getting really complicated |
| 18:00.37 | blast007 | khonkhortisan: well, from my ideal perspective, you'd need a 3-way enum at every level except the top |
| 18:00.58 | blast007 | but that only works if things can determine their parent |
| 18:01.00 | JeffM | would it not be easier to just add flags to the world info for "ground and wall rico" and make +R just set a rico flag on everything? |
| 18:01.20 | JeffM | then everything is a flag in the world and there is no global overide |
| 18:01.40 | blast007 | JeffM: you mean instead of a 'noricochet' map setting? |
| 18:01.47 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:01.55 | blast007 | probably |
| 18:01.59 | JeffM | make each rico surface have a flag "I rico" |
| 18:02.07 | blast007 | this has gotten more complicated to get right as it got furthen in.. |
| 18:02.09 | JeffM | then we just have smart tools to set it |
| 18:02.20 | JeffM | we want the client as dumb as possible |
| 18:03.20 | JeffM | khonkhortisan, I think you should try designing the feature first before implementing it |
| 18:03.29 | JeffM | so you can understand what the best implemntation will be |
| 18:05.47 | JeffM | I'm so glad he is a responsible and responsive maintainer |
| 18:15.01 | joevano | here is why COPPA is important to us http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/02/path-reaches-800000-settlement-with-ftc-over-ios-privacy-issue/ |
| 18:23.21 | JeffM | yeah it is important |
| 18:23.43 | JeffM | the question for that setlment we have is, was the infringing data the accounts, or the content the children created? |
| 18:24.18 | JeffM | from a skim it looks like the problem was "contact data" |
| 18:24.23 | JeffM | not the photos |
| 18:24.47 | blast007 | and probably the fact it was collecting personal information without asking for consent |
| 18:24.52 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:24.55 | JeffM | that's a big deal |
| 18:25.12 | JeffM | again I still belive the intent of the law is personal or contact data, not content |
| 18:25.57 | JeffM | In researching settting up a corp I found all kinds of fun things that we'd have to possibly comply with on the websites |
| 18:27.28 | JeffM | I would like to know the percentage of COPPA letters we get compared to the number of regular accounts that actualy authenticate |
| 18:27.42 | JeffM | as in what percentage of our users fall under COPPA |
| 18:28.18 | blast007 | I could give you a rough number |
| 18:28.45 | JeffM | one option I am thinking about is changing the auth system to make it so that master acounts are 13+ but a parrent can register a master account, and create a child account that has it's own login and no forum posting ability |
| 18:28.57 | JeffM | then we store NO info for the child but can still do auth and notification |
| 18:29.18 | blast007 | ah, that'd be interesting |
| 18:29.23 | JeffM | and that involves the parrent in the process |
| 18:29.57 | JeffM | we could do that now with a small webapp and keep the child accounts in a seperate db that the list checks after main auth fails |
| 18:30.13 | JeffM | use webauth to let parrents manage it |
| 18:30.25 | JeffM | could be the start of a non forum user manager too |
| 18:30.31 | blast007 | that'd open up some other interesting features, such as possibly allowing the parent to reset their child's password more easily, or other forms of the parent monitoring the child's use of the game |
| 18:30.38 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:30.45 | JeffM | we could give them login counts and such |
| 18:31.06 | JeffM | and it still protects our glutials |
| 18:31.42 | JeffM | I don't think it'd be too hard of a thing to tack onto our existing structure if we wanted to take it in baby steps |
| 18:32.02 | JeffM | joevano, what do you think as a concerned parrent :) |
| 18:32.33 | blast007 | Would we need three kinds of accounts? Normal accounts for those 13+, parent accounts for those 18+, and child accounts under a parent account for those under 13? |
| 18:33.02 | JeffM | hmmm, techincaly that means we could let the parrent filter out servers too |
| 18:33.14 | JeffM | I'd do it as 2 |
| 18:33.27 | JeffM | let the 13+ make child accounts |
| 18:33.43 | JeffM | use that as a way to prevent renames and allow multiple callsigns |
| 18:33.56 | JeffM | just give everyone a limit |
| 18:33.58 | JeffM | like 3 |
| 18:34.08 | JeffM | and a parrent can request more |
| 18:34.15 | blast007 | just wondering if there is a need for a "parent or guardian" to be 18 to give us permission to store data for their child |
| 18:34.19 | blast007 | from a legal standpoint |
| 18:34.33 | JeffM | we are not storing any information for the child |
| 18:34.39 | blast007 | hmm |
| 18:34.43 | JeffM | we have the email address of a user over 13 |
| 18:34.50 | JeffM | and we let that user create multiple name/password pairs |
| 18:34.55 | blast007 | true.. sweet. I really like that idea. ;) |
| 18:35.04 | JeffM | yeah it means that we don't store squat |
| 18:35.22 | JeffM | so we make the forum be 13+ |
| 18:35.47 | JeffM | we'd still have to remove any master account user that was <13 |
| 18:36.10 | blast007 | and then our main auth system just stores the bare essentials |
| 18:36.11 | JeffM | but the solution is not to send a letter but to have the parrent make a master account and give the child a login |
| 18:36.14 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:36.42 | JeffM | then we can do things like limit the returned server list based on a parrent defined filter |
| 18:37.01 | JeffM | or not auth the child account on a server that is in the filter |
| 18:37.21 | blast007 | or both :) |
| 18:37.28 | JeffM | and both :) |
| 18:37.42 | JeffM | and yeah we could show the parrent an auth log for the last N days or so |
| 18:42.45 | blast007 | JeffM: somewhere between 2 and 13% of our users are COPPA - and I think it's probably right around 2% |
| 18:43.13 | blast007 | that was based on the number of users in the 'COPPA' group versus the number of users in our database that have authenticated ever |
| 18:43.49 | blast007 | there was far more users in the built-in "Registered COPPA Users" group, but I think even accounts that people never attempt to send a letter in for show up there |
| 18:43.57 | blast007 | (that's where the 13% end of it came from) |
| 18:44.21 | blast007 | I didn't check to see how many of the COPPA users have authenticated |
| 18:44.42 | blast007 | also, the token data is only from when we migrated to phpBB3 |
| 18:50.43 | joevano | JeffM: I like that idea |
| 18:58.10 | blast007 | http://www.ftc.gov/os/fedreg/2013/01/130117coppa.pdf |
| 18:59.28 | blast007 | I'm seeing on the second page there that "personal information" has been expanded to include "geolocation information and persistent identifiers that can be used to recognize a user over time and across different Web sites or online services" |
| 19:18.10 | JeffM | then when the parrent creates the child account they check a box giving us permision to store that data for a user under 13 |
| 19:18.13 | JeffM | then we have permision |
| 19:18.19 | JeffM | and it's stored with the account |
| 19:19.09 | JeffM | then we have not done anything with out the parrents permision and request |
| 19:19.23 | JeffM | that would make it very hard for them to sue us under that law |
| 19:26.11 | blast007 | just need to make sure that we have "verifyable consent" |
| 19:26.26 | blast007 | verifiable* |
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| 20:58.19 | JeffM | yeah, we'd have to store a flag and document that the flag was always set in responce to that text, and probalby the timestamp and IP they set the flag from |
| 20:58.36 | JeffM | keep it in a seperate "consent" table |
| 21:00.10 | ThePurplePanzer | If anyone can approve images, I've got a bunch that have been pending for a little while (a week or two, not sure). I've asked my admins, etc. to help by designing or sending me images, so I've got a number of those, in addition to the ones I've designed. I've also got some Creative Commons licensed trees that will be useful. Probably about 25 total images now. |
| 21:10.07 | JeffM | ThePurplePanzer, joevano, and blast007 can approve them IIRC |
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| 21:17.04 | khonkhortisan | A much simpler (and working (and client-only (and still proto-break-needing)) change is where object ricochet cancels global ricochet. |
| 21:21.13 | JeffM | we don't even need global rico if it can all be defined in the map |
| 21:21.25 | khonkhortisan | it can't be yet |
| 21:25.29 | khonkhortisan | alezakos, wasn't it your idea to make object ricochet reverse whatever global was set to? |
| 21:25.56 | khonkhortisan | It only takes four lines to do that |
| 21:27.59 | blast007 | no |
| 21:28.02 | blast007 | do not do that |
| 21:28.11 | khonkhortisan | :( |
| 21:28.30 | blast007 | just hold off on this for now |
| 21:28.40 | blast007 | make a diff for what you have thus far and post it on the patch tracker |
| 21:28.59 | khonkhortisan | I have that |
| 21:29.13 | khonkhortisan | oh, _that_ comment. |
| 21:30.39 | khonkhortisan | I'll hold off then. |
| 22:04.04 | JeffM | it's something that needs to be planned out so that we have the best implementation |
| 22:04.18 | JeffM | you could also write up a development planning wiki article with your notes on it |
| 22:04.32 | JeffM | that will help with a design |
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| 22:22.06 | joevano | ThePurplePanzer: done |
| 22:31.14 | JeffM | blast007, joevano , the only tricky thing about doing child accounts using our existing userDB would be making phpbb check the child name list for invalid names when making new accounts, I don't know how hard that will be. |
| 22:31.24 | JeffM | the rest of it I think it rather easy to solve |
| 22:31.53 | JeffM | we can even force the child accounts to have randomly generated passwords |
| 22:33.26 | blast007 | yeah, importing the old accounts will be the fun part |
| 22:33.58 | JeffM | well what we do is send the current COPPA list a mass email asking them to send back verifiction that they are 13 |
| 22:34.01 | JeffM | those that don't get deleted |
| 22:34.08 | JeffM | and the parrent recreates the account |
| 22:34.15 | JeffM | then all COPPA users are in the new system |
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| 22:35.16 | JeffM | the group is so small I do not mind a small disruption, and we need to do a cleanout of the group at all |
| 22:41.04 | alezakos | does the wiki have an api.php? |
| 22:41.47 | JeffM | for what? |
| 22:41.59 | ThePurplePanzer | Thanks joevano. |
| 22:42.21 | alezakos | JeffM: Is that a synonym for "What do you need it for?" |
| 22:42.43 | JeffM | alezakos, no I mean what do you think "api.php" is |
| 22:42.53 | JeffM | it is not a common term so I can not tell you if we have one or not |
| 22:43.09 | alezakos | Well, mediawiki comes with a developer API |
| 22:43.09 | JeffM | THEN I would ask what do you need it for ;) |
| 22:43.26 | JeffM | ahh |
| 22:43.31 | JeffM | ok, what do you need it for ? :) |
| 22:43.57 | alezakos | A script to check for dead links, to tell you the truth |
| 22:44.03 | JeffM | ahh |
| 22:44.13 | JeffM | I thought that was a built in feature |
| 22:44.28 | JeffM | but joevano would be the person to ask if we have a method for doing that task |
| 22:44.43 | JeffM | best to start with the problem, not a sugesed solution ;) |
| 22:47.04 | blast007 | alezakos: http://wiki.bzflag.org/Special:SpecialPages |
| 22:47.26 | alezakos | No, that's not what I want |
| 22:47.40 | alezakos | take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php |
| 22:48.27 | blast007 | you said you wanted to check for dead links, and that's there. |
| 22:48.29 | blast007 | http://wiki.bzflag.org/Special:WantedPages |
| 22:48.35 | khonkhortisan | ^ |
| 22:48.45 | alezakos | I mean dead *external* links |
| 22:49.08 | blast007 | eh |
| 22:49.15 | khonkhortisan | that's something the wiki doesn't keep track of |
| 22:49.20 | JeffM | see, staing the problem is a good start ;) |
| 22:49.22 | blast007 | and how does an API help you with that? |
| 22:49.35 | alezakos | On it's own, it doesn't |
| 22:49.35 | khonkhortisan | I had a program that could do that |
| 22:49.37 | JeffM | he can spider the pages in the API and check it |
| 22:49.46 | alezakos | JeffM, exactly |
| 22:49.47 | blast007 | he can spider the pages without an API |
| 22:49.50 | khonkhortisan | like that |
| 22:49.55 | JeffM | true |
| 22:50.04 | blast007 | there's pre-existing link checking programs |
| 22:50.36 | blast007 | but on the other hand, I don't know if that's something a normal user should be doing.. probably something a wiki admin should handle |
| 22:50.54 | JeffM | yeah I'd be leery of providing access to an API |
| 22:51.09 | khonkhortisan | I wouldn't trust a website to not take preventive measures against me if I started recursively doing anything |
| 22:51.11 | alezakos | looks up leery on google translate |
| 22:51.26 | khonkhortisan | google define leery |
| 22:52.03 | blast007 | so here's another question: Why do you need to check for broken external links? |
| 22:52.18 | alezakos | I'm bored and I don't have anything to do |
| 22:52.24 | khonkhortisan | http://validator.w3.org/checklink http://wiki.bzflag.org |
| 22:53.03 | blast007 | alezakos: not a valid reason, sorry ;) |
| 22:53.05 | JeffM | fix bugs in bzflag ;) |
| 22:53.22 | khonkhortisan | search for FIXME |
| 22:53.23 | alezakos | JeffM: I knew someone was going to say that |
| 22:53.40 | blast007 | besides, you can't progmatically check for all instances of dead links |
| 22:53.43 | JeffM | project managers do tend to manage projects ;) |
| 22:54.05 | khonkhortisan | why not? |
| 22:54.18 | blast007 | you'd catch obvious ones, like ones that time our, or return server error code headers - but what if someone just redirects invalid pages to their homepage? |
| 22:54.35 | blast007 | it'd be a dead link, but it would seem like it's still working just fine from your program |
| 22:54.51 | khonkhortisan | website.com/removedpage -> website.com/index.html wouldn't be caught |
| 22:55.18 | khonkhortisan | answered your hypothetical question |
| 22:55.18 | alezakos | unless the script doesn't just check for 404 errors |
| 22:55.53 | blast007 | so, what, are you going to implement a full AI to determine if the resulting site is what it should have been? :P |
| 22:56.07 | blast007 | "My link checker script is turing complete!" |
| 22:56.21 | khonkhortisan | given enough websites to think on, that is |
| 22:56.52 | blast007 | khonkhortisan: and it wasn't a hypothetical question ;) |
| 22:57.04 | alezakos | if(200) {just continue} elseif(404) {flashing lights to make the dead link more obvious} else {issue a warning and continue} |
| 22:57.20 | khonkhortisan | Challenge: Build a website out of 404 pages |
| 22:57.56 | blast007 | in any case, I am not going to enable any kind of public API for the wiki. |
| 22:58.14 | alezakos | khonkhortisan: http://fab404.com/ |
| 22:58.14 | blast007 | if you want to check for dead links, go through the pages and click on the links. |
| 22:58.18 | khonkhortisan | the mass edit comes to mind again |
| 22:58.26 | blast007 | there is no mass edit... |
| 22:58.43 | khonkhortisan |
and there shouldn't be |
| 22:59.53 | alezakos | i think there's a mass edit plugin |
| 23:00.20 | alezakos | 1st dead link found: "Current events" on the sidebar |
| 23:02.16 | khonkhortisan | Current events: Attempt to take over twitter page for <wrap to same line> |
| 23:04.36 | blast007 | http://wiki.bzflag.org/api.php ;) |
| 23:05.05 | alezakos | That answers my question |
| 23:05.11 | alezakos | the wiki *does* have an API |
| 23:05.13 | alezakos | thanks, blast |
| 23:07.36 | JeffM | what can you do with that API? any write actions? |
| 23:07.45 | khonkhortisan | delete users |
| 23:07.48 | blast007 | it can do writes |
| 23:07.54 | JeffM | please disable that sucker |
| 23:07.59 | blast007 | it is |
| 23:08.01 | JeffM | or HTaccess protect it |
| 23:08.02 | JeffM | thanks |
| 23:08.05 | blast007 | it wasn't before |
| 23:08.09 | JeffM | k |
| 23:08.21 | alezakos | On wikipedia at least, I think you need to have bot permissions to write |
| 23:08.25 | blast007 | but before it also wasn't accessible since there wasn't an apache rule for it ;) |
| 23:08.32 | JeffM | ahh |
| 23:08.38 | blast007 | https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Restricting_API_usage |
| 23:08.42 | blast007 | it defaults to on |
| 23:09.02 | blast007 | cuz, like, I'm sure everyone who installed mediawiki wants that |
| 23:09.07 | blast007 | installs* |
| 23:09.11 | JeffM | I don't mind a read API but a write API has major risks |
| 23:09.50 | blast007 | well, I imagine the writes are limited to thinks like the wiki pages themself |
| 23:10.14 | blast007 | https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Changing_wiki_content |
| 23:11.50 | blast007 | wonder if there's any spambots written for the API ;) |
| 23:12.19 | khonkhortisan | I'd expect there to be |
| 23:12.37 | khonkhortisan | it's what you do on the way to making a good bot as a test |
| 23:14.59 | khonkhortisan | If a plugin can't detect where a shot ends, I'll just make the shots last a very long time and all the targets collect the shots into an underground plumbing system that sends it to a central client-side bot that always spawns there. /notserious |
| 23:34.00 | JeffM | khonkhortisan, I will try to work on shots more this weekend |
| 23:34.20 | JeffM | after I finish making a fire based fluid seperation system |
| 23:34.44 | khonkhortisan | Are test tubes involved? |
| 23:34.51 | JeffM | nope |
| 23:34.55 | JeffM | copper tubes |
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