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| 04:05.04 | jeffm | blast007, my other domains finally whoissed |
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| 17:24.22 | JeffM | joevano, it is a non zero number |
| 17:33.05 | blast007 | *puts pinky to lip* One MIIIIILLION dollars! |
| 17:40.45 | JeffM | given how some of those kickstarters have gone, the money is out there |
| 17:41.10 | JeffM | it's just not a large % |
| 17:41.20 | JeffM | I'd put it under 10% probability |
| 17:54.14 | joevano | really, do you think... I don't |
| 17:54.52 | JeffM | if the effort was put into bringing it up to date as a free to play game and it was pushed I think there is a small chance |
| 17:54.56 | JeffM | it would take a LOT of work |
| 17:55.15 | joevano | I don't think it would be BZFlag at that point |
| 17:55.17 | JeffM | but current games have shown the money is out there |
| 17:55.36 | JeffM | possibly |
| 17:55.47 | JeffM | thats why I say it's more likely to be in the thousands |
| 17:56.00 | JeffM | but a million bucks isn't as much these days as it used to be |
| 17:56.19 | JeffM | just add hats and the money will roll in |
| 17:58.03 | JeffM | and sadly part of that is not a joke, if we had cosmetic items that would only show if a player was a donator, it would increase donations |
| 17:58.42 | blast007 | Attend BZCon and get an in-game cape added to your tank! |
| 17:59.25 | JeffM | joevano, think about the work that the minecraft people put into promoting the game for the money they got back |
| 17:59.49 | blast007 | twacks alezakos with the Tree of Souls |
| 17:59.54 | JeffM | it is possible, just unlikely |
| 18:00.00 | alezakos | what did I do? |
| 18:00.07 | JeffM | you avatarded |
| 18:00.09 | blast007 | 11:59:17 CTCP AVATAR reply from alezakos in channel #bzflag: |
| 18:00.10 | blast007 | ;) |
| 18:00.34 | JeffM | maybe he was talking about the airbender |
| 18:00.37 | JeffM | if so, then all is well |
| 18:00.41 | joevano | JeffM: yeah, minecraft defies explination to me |
| 18:00.56 | JeffM | joevano, it's a feature of the culture we have with the internets now |
| 18:01.16 | JeffM | you get some momentum and it can take big time |
| 18:01.28 | JeffM | the money is out there |
| 18:01.50 | JeffM | and people are willing to give it up if it's small |
| 18:02.54 | blast007 | now there's a line to take out of context ;) |
| 18:02.59 | JeffM | heh |
| 18:03.34 | JeffM | kickstarter has shown that the minecraft phenomenon is not unique |
| 18:04.11 | JeffM | now I don't think bzflag will take off like that, but I do think that it has the cability of having some cashflow, enough to be a positive influence on development |
| 18:04.41 | JeffM | being able to offer bounties in the hundreds of dollars would be nice |
| 18:05.47 | JeffM | and for that you need something that can 1099 the developers that get paid |
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| 18:10.18 | JeffM_ | it's REALLY hard to do stuff with them if you arn't a chairity |
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| 18:16.07 | JeffM | I noticed that even the mozilla foundation made a seperate entity to handle the marketing of products, the mozilla corporation |
| 18:20.40 | blast007 | 'In 2006 the Mozilla Corporation generated 66.8 million dollars in revenue and 19.8 million in expenses, with 85% of that revenue coming from Google for "assigning [Google] as the browser's default search engine, and for click-throughs on ads placed on the ensuing search results pages." ' |
| 18:20.54 | blast007 | time to intergrate google search into BZFlag |
| 18:21.00 | JeffM | heh |
| 18:21.02 | JeffM | addwords |
| 18:22.01 | JeffM | I was reading on the reasons they moved that income to a taxable company, it actualy made it easier to do taxes and pay people |
| 18:22.19 | JeffM | NPOs have a lot of limits on what they can spend money on and stay tax exempt |
| 18:23.05 | JeffM | so now they have a real corporation that has employees and just happens to send a large percentage of it's profits to the charity that owns it :) |
| 18:23.35 | blast007 | and look, their board of directors consists of more than one person! |
| 18:23.50 | JeffM | yup |
| 18:24.08 | JeffM | we would get a protection aspect from an org too |
| 18:24.11 | JeffM | specicly YOU would |
| 18:24.29 | JeffM | if there was a COPPA violation techincaly you would be to blame not tim |
| 18:24.49 | JeffM | since you own the server and service yet Tim collected the COPPA letter |
| 18:24.57 | JeffM | so the parrent gave tim the right to store data not you |
| 18:25.20 | blast007 | fun |
| 18:25.44 | JeffM | where with a corporation we could make you an agent of the corporaton and they'd only be able to sue the corp not you |
| 18:26.17 | JeffM | not that I think it'd happen but it's something to understand |
| 18:26.33 | blast007 | hope for the best, plan for the worst :P |
| 18:27.13 | JeffM | I belive you'd be liable if someone defamed the king of the land of thai food as well |
| 18:27.29 | blast007 | heh |
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| 18:28.47 | blast007 | there are some aspects of COPPA that aren't clear to me yet.. like when someone turns 13 after having signed up as COPPA, what happens then? |
| 18:30.00 | blast007 | I'd also want to require that COPPA letters get faxed or snail mailed instead of e-mailed. |
| 18:32.03 | JeffM | as far as I know after they turn 13 you are no longer restriced in saving the data |
| 18:32.14 | JeffM | as in you do not need permision to store data for them |
| 18:32.31 | blast007 | so their account should be moved out of the COPPA group? |
| 18:33.19 | JeffM | that is a policy we set |
| 18:33.26 | JeffM | the law dosn't require the coppa 'group' at all |
| 18:33.33 | blast007 | true.. |
| 18:33.35 | JeffM | so we are just doing that as a convience for us |
| 18:34.33 | JeffM | it all really depends on what is easiest for you |
| 18:35.11 | JeffM | but these are the kinds of policies I'd like to have formalised |
| 18:36.25 | JeffM | personaly I'd not be against telling those under 13 that a parrent must create the account |
| 18:36.38 | JeffM | that involved the parrent, and removes our liability |
| 18:42.38 | blast007 | I still question that... |
| 18:42.49 | blast007 | we would still be collecting data |
| 18:45.35 | JeffM | yes but the law says that we can not store personal data FOR a user under 13, we would be storing data for the adult, and it would be the adult's choice to let the child use that data |
| 18:45.41 | JeffM | then the adult chooses what data we store |
| 18:45.52 | JeffM | I belive that pushes the liablity from us to the adult |
| 18:46.22 | JeffM | bassicly when the accoutn was created and we stored data, the user had to agree that they were over 13 |
| 18:46.24 | blast007 | but data is generated after registration |
| 18:46.32 | blast007 | and it would be generated by the child |
| 18:46.34 | JeffM | the law only says "personal info" |
| 18:46.45 | JeffM | email password, etc.. |
| 18:46.50 | JeffM | it dosn't cover posts and such |
| 18:46.53 | JeffM | IIRC |
| 18:47.02 | blast007 | what if the posts contain personal info? |
| 18:47.39 | JeffM | probably be ok to have that taken care of in normal moderation |
| 18:47.47 | blast007 | "The Children's Online Privacy Protection Act and Rule apply to individually identifiable information about a child that is collected online, such as full name, home address, email address, telephone number or any other information that would allow someone to identify or contact the child" |
| 18:48.17 | blast007 | so adding an MSN screen name to their profile could be considered "personal info" |
| 18:48.20 | JeffM | to defend against that case, you'd limit the scope of the term "collected" |
| 18:48.46 | JeffM | you'd say that "collected" means info the site requests and requires |
| 18:48.56 | JeffM | all other data is "offered" by the user |
| 18:49.03 | JeffM | but yeah it's a thin line |
| 18:49.31 | blast007 | Google Analytics might come into play as well.. |
| 18:49.44 | JeffM | sure but google stores that data |
| 18:49.59 | JeffM | same thing could happen when it spiders the site |
| 18:50.02 | JeffM | for searches |
| 18:50.37 | JeffM | I wonder how many actual users are under 13? |
| 18:51.01 | JeffM | because we could say "nobody under 13, if you are under 13, play WITH your parrent" |
| 18:51.19 | JeffM | then we are saying that all accounts are maintained and accessed by those 13+ |
| 18:51.37 | JeffM | other people probably have had to deal with this, so there may be more research to do |
| 18:52.03 | blast007 | if we're gonna go that route, probably best to just say you have to be 13 or over to play, and not even mention anything about playing with supervision |
| 18:52.13 | JeffM | best would be to seperate forum from game account |
| 18:52.23 | blast007 | yeah |
| 18:52.33 | JeffM | then don't allow forum access for < 13 but allow game access with COPPA |
| 18:53.03 | blast007 | agreed, that'd be the cleanest way to handle it |
| 18:53.37 | blast007 | the game account would only have limited required personal information and nothing much for user generated content |
| 18:53.55 | JeffM | finish group manager, move users to it's own DB, and write an auth plugin for phpbb |
| 18:53.59 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:54.10 | blast007 | or just have seperate logins for the forum |
| 18:54.10 | JeffM | just have it store email |
| 18:54.14 | JeffM | possible |
| 18:54.16 | blast007 | doesn't *have* to be integrated |
| 18:54.21 | JeffM | personaly I'd be fine with that |
| 18:54.29 | JeffM | move the forums over to openID |
| 18:54.44 | blast007 | or have a checkbox in the game account system to activate a forum account |
| 18:54.52 | blast007 | but that could get tricky |
| 18:54.56 | JeffM | EA,and others do that |
| 18:55.17 | blast007 | you'd have to disable the ability to rename the base account names |
| 18:56.12 | JeffM | I'd like the base account to be the email addres, and give each user 2-3 callsigns to use |
| 18:56.32 | blast007 | that becomes more complicated if you want to enable a forum account then |
| 18:56.35 | JeffM | treat the callsign like a MMO "character" |
| 18:56.52 | JeffM | slightly |
| 18:57.05 | blast007 | would you make a forum account with one of their names? an unrelated name? |
| 18:57.07 | JeffM | or have the forum account tied to just the email and the forum data uses a "display name" |
| 18:57.21 | JeffM | default the display name to the first callsign |
| 18:57.25 | blast007 | yeah, that'd be one option |
| 18:57.41 | blast007 | probably the best way to do it, really |
| 18:58.07 | blast007 | Then you don't have to do anything crazy to cross-reference the accounts. It's just joined by email address. |
| 18:58.37 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:58.49 | JeffM | that's how bizard does it |
| 18:59.05 | JeffM | your forum account is tied to your battle net ID, and you have a display name. |
| 18:59.20 | JeffM | and all your wow/diablo charactrers are also tied to your battle net ID |
| 18:59.34 | JeffM | so you have a single authentication account, but names for each system |
| 19:07.57 | JeffM | I bet I could get group manager finished if I had a couple hundred bucks to swing around on it :) |
| 19:08.37 | blast007 | heh |
| 19:09.17 | blast007 | would we want to rip authentication out of the forum at the same time? |
| 19:10.08 | JeffM | I'd write the group manager with the assumption that it pulls from it's own table of groups, see how hard it would be to add user manager to it also using it's own groups |
| 19:10.29 | blast007 | k |
| 19:10.36 | JeffM | when it was done and tested, I'd copy the phpbb users into it, and write a plugin on the forums to use it |
| 19:11.37 | JeffM | or write up a "convert account" page that makes people auth against php and pick an new password for the master account |
| 19:11.47 | blast007 | mainly I just want to ensure that I plan far enough ahead that stuff works together |
| 19:12.07 | JeffM | yeah we would need to have a complete depolyment plan for all things |
| 19:12.27 | JeffM | even if the inital group manager auths against phpbb, it should store it's own groups |
| 19:12.29 | blast007 | For instance, I don't want the group manager to be a seperate app. It should be part of a player portal or a game management portal. |
| 19:12.34 | JeffM | yeah |
| 19:12.57 | JeffM | it's just that we can start the portal with groups and still auth against phpbb |
| 19:13.36 | JeffM | making the portal and having it just do users but not groups is not feasable |
| 19:14.05 | JeffM | the users have to go with the groups, but the groups don't have to go with the users. |
| 19:14.43 | JeffM | whenver we do the split I don't think we should do an import but a mass mailing and force people to upgrade the account |
| 19:14.56 | JeffM | that gets us a huge purge on names and accounts |
| 19:15.29 | JeffM | still it should be a relativly straightforward project to plan |
| 19:16.12 | JeffM | we pick a web framework and just get some people to start working on it from our design specification |
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| 21:04.18 | JeffM | blast007, is there a framework you hate the least? |
| 21:05.04 | blast007 | mvcish ;) |
| 21:05.58 | joevano | seems a little inactive ;) |
| 21:06.03 | blast007 | pfft |
| 21:06.08 | blast007 | it's "mature" ;) |
| 21:06.11 | blast007 | ish |
| 21:06.41 | JeffM | may be hard to get other people to use that ;) |
| 21:06.54 | blast007 | the BZFlag.org homepage uses it |
| 21:07.13 | JeffM | you think you could help others use it? |
| 21:07.27 | blast007 | there's not really much to it |
| 21:07.55 | blast007 | it's not a massive monolithic framework that forces you to use the whole thing |
| 21:07.57 | JeffM | ok, would it be feasable for a portal? |
| 21:08.09 | blast007 | sure |
| 21:08.44 | JeffM | I don't know much about them. I used CakePhp once and it seemd pretty slick |
| 21:10.33 | blast007 | I already have an auth system in mvcish that supports LDAP and phpBB3 ;) |
| 21:10.47 | JeffM | a good enough reason to start there |
| 21:11.54 | JeffM | tho for all this talk of a 'master account' for auth it makes me wonder if we shouldn't use something like openID for that master auth then just hang the rest of the data, tokens and the like off that |
| 21:12.15 | JeffM | but I don't know how hard it would be to get the client to auth with openID and then generate a token |
| 21:12.23 | blast007 | we could, but we'd still need legacy support for the older versions |
| 21:12.35 | blast007 | and OpenID doesn't replace an authentication system |
| 21:12.44 | JeffM | yeah it's just part of one |
| 21:13.04 | JeffM | yeah we'll have to have a way of doing auth from just a username/password combo |
| 21:13.29 | blast007 | we'd probably have less control of cross-application integration if we went with OpenID |
| 21:13.46 | JeffM | k |
| 21:14.11 | blast007 | for instance, I don't know if we'd be able to auto-populate/sync the email address in the forum with an OpenID login |
| 21:31.57 | JeffM | hmm maybe if we get a couple hundred bucks together and a company we can buy what's left of THQ |
| 21:35.42 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Alezakos * 8456 /Getting_Help: fix a couple of outdated links |
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| 22:35.04 | Notify | 03BZFlag:Blast * 8457 /Web_Services/Player_Portal: |
| 22:35.54 | blast007 | I updated some pieces of this a bit: http://wiki.bzflag.org/Web_Services/Player_Portal |
| 22:36.00 | blast007 | so tempting to add a 6th miletone that just says "PROFIT!!" |
| 22:36.46 | JeffM | heh |
| 22:36.55 | JeffM | it could be used to manage hat credits |
| 22:40.19 | JeffM | BZBux |
| 22:54.49 | khonkhortisan | BZBux GU match bets |
| 23:03.25 | JeffM | I'm pretty sure that would be illegal in a LOT of places |
| 23:28.52 | blast007 | gifting BZBux might be okay though, say, for a game tournament? |
| 23:33.55 | JeffM | yes, the big thing woudl be as long as they can't be converted BACK into cash |
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| 23:49.35 | kierra | OK blast |
| 23:49.52 | kierra | i'm supposed to summon you to gu so dazz can talk to you |
| 23:50.02 | kierra | :D banned him instead |
| 23:53.13 | blast007 | win |
| 23:59.11 | kierra | told him you didnt do my bidding...and he has a smart remark to that.... |
| 23:59.17 | kierra | he's such a nuisance |