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| 03:41.48 | JeffM | Tim say anything after I went to school? |
| 03:47.26 | Detrimental | where are the bzfkag config files in windows |
| 03:48.15 | JeffM | in your app data folder |
| 03:48.31 | JeffM | C:\Users\JeffM\AppData\Local\BZFlag\2.4 |
| 03:48.38 | Detrimental | what about deb linux |
| 03:48.48 | JeffM | your home dir in a .bzf folder |
| 03:48.52 | Detrimental | /usr/share/bzflag ? |
| 03:48.53 | JeffM | I think |
| 03:48.55 | Detrimental | ok |
| 03:48.59 | JeffM | no, the config is per user |
| 03:49.09 | JeffM | the data files like images are shared |
| 03:49.16 | JeffM | but each user has there own settings |
| 03:50.10 | Detrimental | yes in .bzf |
| 03:50.18 | Detrimental | ok thanks |
| 03:50.51 | JeffM | anytime |
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| 14:11.57 | kierra | whats' tim riker's email? |
| 14:17.39 | blast007 | kierra: see the bottom of http://rikers.org/ |
| 14:17.59 | kierra | ty |
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| 17:22.30 | JeffM | ahh the joy of implementing your own math and logic resolvers :/ |
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| 17:53.05 | Notify | 03BZFlag:JeffM2501 * 22603 trunk/bzflag/plugins/webReport/webReport.vcxproj: copy the template files to the bin plugins dir |
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| 18:38.02 | Notify | 03BZFlag:JeffM2501 * 22604 trunk/bzflag/package/win32/nsis/BZFlag.nsi: install any templates that were built for server plug-ins |
| 18:39.48 | Notify | 03BZFlag:JeffM2501 * 22605 trunk/bzflag/plugins/webStats/webStats.vcxproj: copy the template files to the bin plugins dir |
| 18:41.14 | JeffM | I have no idea how all that shoudl be done for makefile based distrobutions |
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| 18:48.22 | JeffM | ok, for the basic templates I did, it looks like webstats is working and ready for testing |
| 18:48.49 | Constitution | what do the makefiles need to do for that? |
| 18:48.51 | JeffM | I am worried that it may be an attack vector since it's not threaded, but we'll have to see |
| 18:49.14 | JeffM | to build the plugins nothing, but there are template files that need to be installed somewhere |
| 18:49.27 | JeffM | on windows I made a templates dir at the same location I install the plugins |
| 18:49.41 | JeffM | then a sub dir for each plugin |
| 18:49.49 | JeffM | so webStats webReport, etc... |
| 18:50.05 | JeffM | the templates also should be in the tarbal too |
| 18:50.19 | blast007 | for linux, they'd probably go in somewhere such as /usr/local/share/bzflag/templates/<pluginname>/ |
| 18:50.29 | JeffM | that makes sense |
| 18:50.44 | blast007 | though you'd probably want to be able to provide them somewhere in the home directory as well so that a normal user could customize them |
| 18:51.08 | JeffM | the pluin takes a path to templates |
| 18:51.17 | JeffM | so you can totaly overide it |
| 18:51.50 | JeffM | but we may want to do some kind of path merge thing where a dir you specifcy gets merged into some "standard" dir |
| 18:53.06 | JeffM | you guys run more servers then I do, so I'm open to any changes you want to make it easier to manage the templates |
| 18:54.11 | JeffM | we may also want to provide a template that is used for the default page that is generated too, server ops may want to brand the page or something |
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| 21:14.26 | blast007 | TimRiker: Have you pondered any further about the future of the BZFlag project? |
| 21:14.44 | TimRiker | still pondering, yep |
| 21:16.07 | blast007 | do you have any input or thoughts you can provide beyond "still pondering"? |
| 21:17.36 | TimRiker | need some time to look around and see what other organizations might take copyright assignment. and what would this mean for our ability to shut down distribution that's not in compliance with the license. |
| 21:18.17 | JeffM | is there any specific reason you are unwilling to give the copyright to another individual? |
| 21:18.28 | TimRiker | catching up on the boards as to what's happening lately, etc. should be an informed decision, and right now I need to learn more |
| 21:19.23 | TimRiker | JeffM, that might be a good choice. still considering. |
| 21:19.28 | JeffM | k |
| 21:20.02 | JeffM | how imporant is an LGPL style license to you, compared to something more permisive like MIT? |
| 21:20.15 | JeffM | do you have concerns about comerial interestes taking the code and not sharing? |
| 21:20.32 | TimRiker | well, MIT would allow hacked clients to be distributed legally without source, right? |
| 21:20.39 | JeffM | yes |
| 21:20.47 | TimRiker | so, that concerns me. |
| 21:20.50 | JeffM | k |
| 21:21.35 | JeffM | so far I've only seen one person ever do that with bzflag, and I'm not sure the GPL stopped them |
| 21:21.39 | JeffM | but it's a valid concern |
| 21:21.40 | TimRiker | I'm not so concerned with a commercial interest taking it. that's somewhat concerning, but the more pressing issue is dealing with unfriendly clients |
| 21:22.22 | JeffM | a valid concern while the server is in it's current state, less so if it were to be authorative, but understandable |
| 21:22.26 | TimRiker | I've shutdown the distribution of five different hacked clients over the years. I've cited the GPL/LGPL in all of those conversations. |
| 21:22.47 | TimRiker | well, at least five that I can remember. |
| 21:22.59 | JeffM | most cheats we see are source cheats, it's REALLY easy to build on windows :) |
| 21:23.31 | JeffM | but it's good to understand your thought process on it |
| 21:23.49 | TimRiker | also, I've had a few printed publications who didn't want to provide or even link to the source code change their minds when presented with the license. |
| 21:24.12 | JeffM | what is a "printed" publication? |
| 21:24.16 | JeffM | what website is that on? ;) |
| 21:24.25 | blast007 | they still make paper? |
| 21:24.44 | JeffM | no they closed the last papermill in the US last month |
| 21:24.46 | JeffM | seriously |
| 21:24.54 | JeffM | it was where my dad lives |
| 21:24.56 | TimRiker | some places do, yes. I have a collection of magazines and books that include articles on bzflag. :) |
| 21:25.50 | TimRiker | but the issue is the same for web sites and blogs. just that I don't recall any needed encouragement there. |
| 21:26.17 | JeffM | yeah seems odd that someone would be willing to put the work to write up something about a thing but not tell people how to get it |
| 21:26.47 | JeffM | but people are wierd |
| 21:27.37 | JeffM | personaly I'd like to see it stay LGPL or similar |
| 21:27.38 | TimRiker | even effected whatever that "windows friendly" distribution was. They took it as their own and renamed it "3d tank" then removed all references to bzflag.org except from the list server communications. |
| 21:28.02 | TimRiker | lindows? I don't recall. |
| 21:28.07 | JeffM | yeah that thing |
| 21:28.13 | JeffM | thankfully it died |
| 21:28.24 | JeffM | that was a bad idea |
| 21:28.53 | JeffM | good thing the concept of "ap store" has been solidified to not be first party branded these days |
| 21:29.03 | TimRiker | again, my conversation was: hello, this is tim riker. I own the copyright to the product you are distributing, and you're doing it without compliance with the license. Can we work this out? or should i have my lawyer contact you? |
| 21:29.07 | TimRiker | works very well. |
| 21:29.30 | JeffM | more people are aware of open source licensing these days too |
| 21:29.53 | TimRiker | I don't look forward to "hello, this is <someone>. I have no ownership or legal relationship with this project, but you're not doing the Right Thing. Will you spend some time and fix that?" |
| 21:30.20 | JeffM | sure |
| 21:31.16 | JeffM | changing the art assets to CC by SA clears them up a lot, I'd want to do the same things to the maps we include too |
| 21:31.17 | TimRiker | yeah. preaching to the choir. just pointing out that we're not where we are on accident. |
| 21:31.54 | TimRiker | that makes sense to me. feel free to change any hix stuff I created. |
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| 21:32.00 | JeffM | k |
| 21:32.17 | JeffM | we are just trying to figure out the best way to denote what is under what license in the tarbal |
| 21:32.57 | TimRiker | I don't recall who else modified that map. I did the original, and then more changes later along with others. |
| 21:33.03 | blast007 | there was also some fun discussion recently (or re-discussion) about screenshots/thumbnails of games with mixed asset licenses ;) |
| 21:33.19 | JeffM | interesting concept |
| 21:33.31 | JeffM | yeah if the geo is under one license, but the textures are another |
| 21:34.08 | JeffM | if we put all our stuff under CC by SA then it should be clear that is the prefered license for assets and any others are the user's own risk |
| 21:34.09 | blast007 | it was more about some textures being GPL while others were some GPL-incompatible-but-still-open-source licensed in the same image |
| 21:34.16 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:34.18 | JeffM | I could see that too |
| 21:34.21 | blast007 | some of the CC's are not GPL-compatible |
| 21:34.31 | blast007 | like CC-BY 2.0 |
| 21:34.43 | JeffM | well thats a reason for us removing the GPL from as many assets as we have |
| 21:34.58 | JeffM | GPL dosn't make sense for assets since what is the "source"? |
| 21:35.00 | blast007 | 3.0 is though (although some else said they were trying to convince the Debian Ftpmasters that it wasn't) |
| 21:35.08 | JeffM | do I have to send you the brick I took a picture of? |
| 21:35.10 | blast007 | someone* |
| 21:35.27 | TimRiker | if the client includes the output of lgpl code an the assets, then the licenses need to handle that. |
| 21:36.08 | TimRiker | s/ an / and / |
| 21:36.31 | JeffM | does that mean that nobody can use GIMP for a closed license image? |
| 21:37.46 | TimRiker | all I'm saying is that if you build a package with gimp and closed license images, the distribution of that package is unclear. perhaps illegal. |
| 21:37.55 | JeffM | ahh |
| 21:38.30 | JeffM | personaly I'e been a fan of the MPL since it specificly calls out "source code" for what it applies to and is designed to be included with assets of other licenses. |
| 21:38.42 | JeffM | but still requires that mods to the code be shared, etc.. |
| 21:39.09 | blast007 | the Debian lawyers were saying that the screenshots/thumbnails were derivative works of the game they pictured, and thus the license of the games/assets applied |
| 21:39.37 | TimRiker | that's a bit extreme to me |
| 21:39.48 | blast007 | well, that's debian for ya.. |
| 21:41.38 | TimRiker | I guess I can't take pictures of Linux running on proprietary hardware. now where do I get that open hardware laptop? |
| 21:42.23 | TimRiker | Linux: you can run it, but you can't take pictures of it. |
| 21:43.55 | Detrimental | wow, |
| 21:44.13 | blast007 | some of them were questioning if our game should be put into contrib because our font textures were generated with an LGPL program that happened to link to (and require) MFC, which is a Windows-only proprietary library |
| 21:45.17 | blast007 | which is like saying that you also can't use Photoshop to make any textures for the game |
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| 22:00.12 | JeffM | we do need to work on getting that font code replaced |
| 22:04.33 | JeffM | replace font code, get the new server list, buffer net messages, thread networking, those would all be good non breaking things |
| 22:04.51 | JeffM | then wrap sound and URL handling and split platform |
| 22:05.41 | TimRiker | what does "split platform" mean here? |
| 22:06.00 | JeffM | break the platform class into subsystems for what they do, input, sound, display, etc.. |
| 22:06.08 | JeffM | so that we can pick and choose what we need for each system |
| 22:06.13 | TimRiker | ah |
| 22:06.30 | JeffM | like using openAL for sound for everyone but windows can use native input, but SDL display |
| 22:06.39 | TimRiker | nods |
| 22:06.54 | JeffM | the platform concept isn't a bad one, it just needs to be more granular then we have now |
| 22:07.10 | TimRiker | nods |
| 22:07.11 | JeffM | and every platform is going to have some OS specific code for at least file handling |
| 22:07.43 | JeffM | is not a fan of #defs everywhere |
| 22:36.58 | khonkhortisan | Hello bzflag celebrity. |
| 22:44.49 | khonkhortisan | Should PZ automatically be disabled when the map has no teleporters? |
| 22:44.58 | JeffM | probably a good idea |
| 22:45.14 | JeffM | do we disable J when jumping is on? |
| 22:45.31 | JeffM | same for rico |
| 22:45.34 | khonkhortisan | yes |
| 22:45.44 | JeffM | then yeah we should do the same for PZ |
| 22:45.58 | khonkhortisan | But teleporters aren't as simple as a server option, the map should be scanned. |
| 22:46.01 | JeffM | and stealth for games with no radar |
| 22:46.05 | JeffM | yup |
| 22:46.08 | khonkhortisan | oh yeah |
| 22:46.18 | JeffM | I belive the compiled world has a list of objects, one of them is a list of links |
| 22:46.29 | JeffM | if that link list is 0 then we don't do PZ |
| 22:47.14 | khonkhortisan | even with no radar, ST still affects the identify button. It has a use on the mystic forest map. |
| 22:47.31 | JeffM | ahh ok |
| 22:47.42 | khonkhortisan | I mean mystic valley |
| 22:47.43 | JeffM | good observation |
| 22:48.25 | alezakos | ST affects GMs as well |
| 22:48.30 | alezakos | Maybe IB instead of ST? |
| 22:49.28 | JeffM | yeah since there is no defense against it with out radar |
| 22:49.52 | JeffM | but that may be a setup choice, a mean setup choice but a vaild one for a server owner |
| 22:50.08 | JeffM | it's getting out of the realm of what we do for jump and rico |
| 22:50.33 | JeffM | J is inefective when jumping is on, IB is SUPER POWERFULL when radar is off :) |
| 22:51.28 | khonkhortisan | Aren't we talking about CS? IB should be no different without radar. |
| 22:52.14 | JeffM | IB = invisible bullet, so that means the only way to see it is on radar, if you have no radar then there are 0 ways to see it |
| 22:52.33 | JeffM | totaly invisible death from anywhere with no possible defense |
| 22:52.52 | alezakos | Basically what you're talking about is CS (Cloaked Shot) |
| 22:52.52 | JeffM | CS is similar to J, no advantage |
| 22:52.55 | khonkhortisan | I think that's backwards |
| 22:53.05 | alezakos | IB = you can't see bullet on radar |
| 22:53.08 | JeffM | oh |
| 22:53.09 | JeffM | yeah then CS |
| 22:53.13 | JeffM | stupid names :) |
| 22:53.15 | khonkhortisan | IB being visible except radar, CS being invisible except radar |
| 22:53.22 | JeffM | yeah then CS |
| 22:53.25 | JeffM | my bad |
| 22:53.27 | khonkhortisan | yeah, IB should be changed when CS is actually added mainstream |
| 22:53.47 | JeffM | techincaly IB should be SB for Stealth bullet so it matches the tank flag |
| 22:54.00 | khonkhortisan | but then we have super bullet |
| 22:54.04 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:54.06 | khonkhortisan | ZB for zoned bullet? |
| 22:54.13 | JeffM | RG |
| 22:54.15 | JeffM | railgun |
| 22:54.18 | khonkhortisan | but Pz can't kill |
| 22:54.21 | khonkhortisan | RG works |
| 22:54.42 | I_Died_Once | zone tanks with PZ can shoot and kill other zoned tanks with PZ |
| 22:55.00 | khonkhortisan | if IB is freed up, CS can be called IB |
| 22:55.02 | JeffM | yeah but with no porters they can never GET zoned |
| 22:55.17 | JeffM | I'd leave it CS to match the tank flag |
| 22:55.24 | JeffM | we don't have IT for InvisoTank |
| 22:55.27 | khonkhortisan | PZ = US when no teleporters |
| 22:55.40 | JeffM | yeah it's in the same category as jump and rico |
| 22:56.35 | khonkhortisan | And the best part is, it doesn't have to wait for proto break! |
| 22:56.54 | JeffM | yeah that is just a server option optimisation |
| 22:56.57 | JeffM | so go for it |
| 22:58.51 | alezakos | IB could become SS (Stealthed Shot), or SB could be renamed into something else |
| 22:59.03 | JeffM | true |
| 22:59.09 | JeffM | all things to ponder |
| 22:59.32 | JeffM | tho I'm not entirely sure why we are limited to 2 letters :) |
| 23:01.03 | khonkhortisan | Because we can get by with only that much |
| 23:01.16 | JeffM | that's not a good reason |
| 23:01.25 | khonkhortisan | It's good enough to get us this far |
| 23:01.29 | JeffM | 64 should be good enough for anyone right? :) |
| 23:01.34 | JeffM | 64k even |
| 23:02.32 | khonkhortisan | The SuperiorlyAwesomeFlagThatDoesntJustKillEveryoneOffAndIsNoFunButAddsAVeryDifficultAndWellRoundedSkillToTheGame Flag |
| 23:02.42 | JeffM | heh |
| 23:03.02 | JeffM | there is reason to keep it short but I don't know if we have to stick to 3 |
| 23:03.05 | JeffM | 2 I mean |
| 23:04.50 | khonkhortisan | NJ is in the anticategory |
| 23:05.01 | JeffM | well nobody likes to go to new jersy |
| 23:05.16 | JeffM | but yeah we should disable NoJump if jumping is off |
| 23:05.29 | khonkhortisan | I think we do |
| 23:05.33 | JeffM | good |
| 23:06.29 | khonkhortisan | Yeah, no flag showed up with bzfs +f NJ -p 5155 |
| 23:10.54 | khonkhortisan | I think I'd need a PhantomGameStyle. |
| 23:11.11 | JeffM | why? |
| 23:11.20 | JeffM | is the map load done too late? |
| 23:11.43 | khonkhortisan | um, to go with the JumpingGameStyle and the RicochetGameStyle. |
| 23:12.01 | JeffM | that's just the current trigger, you can use other triggers |
| 23:12.07 | JeffM | we can set an internal boolean |
| 23:12.17 | JeffM | is the map compiled by the time we process the flags? |
| 23:12.49 | khonkhortisan | I don't know about either of those actions. |
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| 23:13.16 | JeffM | then that'd have to be researched |
| 23:15.47 | khonkhortisan | wait, how does a GM flag work without radar? |
| 23:16.08 | JeffM | the lock dosn't involve radar, it involves the view |
| 23:17.30 | khonkhortisan | ST blocks both radar, and GM flags, which work without radar. |
| 23:17.52 | JeffM | yeah it's just a gameplay mechanic |
| 23:18.08 | JeffM | you don't need a radar display in a tank to have a radar locking missile :) |
| 23:18.22 | JeffM | no radar really means no "display" |
| 23:18.49 | khonkhortisan | I thought that would end up being the conclusion. Either that or missles use a different frequency. |
| 23:19.07 | JeffM | we have not thought much about how the GM is "suposed" to work |
| 23:19.22 | JeffM | I mean tanks fire big ping-pong balls :) |
| 23:19.35 | khonkhortisan | with zero size. |
| 23:19.39 | JeffM | and the radar display isn't even like a real radar |
| 23:19.54 | JeffM | it's some omnipotent god X-ray view |
| 23:19.58 | khonkhortisan | That could be a puzzle/racing map, shooting through holes smaller than the apparant size of bullets. |
| 23:20.48 | khonkhortisan | it would play differently if the radar actually spun |
| 23:20.59 | JeffM | it's not even spinning |
| 23:21.07 | JeffM | modern radars don't have the line sweep anymore |
| 23:21.16 | JeffM | it's the shadow aspect that woudl change it |
| 23:21.19 | khonkhortisan | that's new information for me |
| 23:21.42 | JeffM | modern radar displays are based of multiple antenas and provide a composite display |
| 23:21.52 | JeffM | with a "last update" time for each thing found |
| 23:22.02 | khonkhortisan | like modern cell towers? |
| 23:22.05 | JeffM | but radar works by bouncing a radio beam off of an object |
| 23:22.23 | JeffM | sorta, but usualy from one place and multiple directions |
| 23:22.38 | JeffM | and they scan many times a second digitaly by modifying the field |
| 23:22.55 | JeffM | but if you hide behind something that show up on radar, you don't show up on radar |
| 23:23.07 | JeffM | the radar beam dosn't go through a building to show another object behind it |
| 23:23.50 | JeffM | it's mostly used at sea or in the air because there isnt' anything to hide behind |
| 23:24.20 | JeffM | cops don't use radar to track a bank robber through a city |
| 23:24.37 | khonkhortisan | that's because they don't have the rico flag |
| 23:24.44 | khonkhortisan | :) |
| 23:24.48 | JeffM | oh god, think of all the inocent hits |
| 23:24.57 | JeffM | that would be horrible |
| 23:25.04 | khonkhortisan | :( |
| 23:25.36 | JeffM | artillery will use radar as a range finder |
| 23:25.43 | JeffM | but not for target tracking |
| 23:25.50 | JeffM | you get that info from a drone or something |
| 23:26.41 | JeffM | I think a more realistic radar in bz would be very interesting, different but interestingt |
| 23:26.46 | JeffM | you could hide easier |
| 23:34.10 | khonkhortisan | Is it still true that G can kill ST in one shot if the ST has a teammate? |
| 23:34.45 | khonkhortisan | I mean SH |
| 23:35.07 | khonkhortisan | G killing SH's teammate kills SH, one shot |
| 23:35.17 | JeffM | the geno kill should be handled by the server so it should be easy to check |
| 23:37.05 | JeffM | or am I thinking of 2.99 |
| 23:41.06 | khonkhortisan | going afc |
| 23:41.26 | JeffM | bahh we never moved that back, it's still on the client, and yes it ignores shield |
| 23:41.45 | JeffM | we should move it to the server and provide an option for SH absorbs geno |
| 23:41.52 | JeffM | I can see desires ether way |
| 23:42.10 | JeffM | or remove geno and make it a plug-in custom flag with those options |