IRC log for #bzflag on 20121124

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22:49.30sussudioJeffM: it just crashed again. guess it's not the bullet thing.
22:49.43I_Died_Onceyeah i just saw that
22:49.53sussudiono loop, just crash + exit
22:50.03JeffMget a debug build in there and get me a callstack
22:50.06I_Died_Onceyeah a whole load of clients just exited at once
22:50.12sussudio:-\
22:50.36I_Died_OnceNo Jacket Required
22:52.01JeffMmy guess is there are multiple issues not just one
22:52.24I_Died_Oncehttp://pastebin.com/VCPax20q
22:52.45JeffMthat means nothing
22:53.01I_Died_Oncewe had a full house
22:53.08I_Died_Once2/3 of everyone got it
22:53.10I_Died_Once:(
22:53.13JeffMthat's just bragging ;)
22:53.17I_Died_Onceshhhh
22:54.18I_Died_Onceis surprised "sussudio" doesn't get my Phil Collins references
22:57.23sussudioi was busy pooping.
22:58.40sussudioreboots to get gamma back... again...
22:58.53JeffMnothing we can do about that
22:59.04JeffMwhen it crashes I can't run any code to change the gama ;)
22:59.17JeffMwell I could do it with shaders
22:59.39*** join/#bzflag noyb (~noyb@pool-173-60-177-193.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net)
23:01.36I_Died_OnceNow, I just now fired up my debug client, it seg faulted upon joining.....
23:01.41I_Died_Onceheres a backtrace full
23:01.43I_Died_Oncehttp://pastebin.com/QSGpJZ9H
23:01.58I_Died_Oncenot sure if its related or not
23:02.43JeffMyeah it had to do with shots
23:02.54JeffMWorldPlayer::updateShots
23:06.11JeffModd that it didn't like a call to size on a vector
23:06.47I_Died_Oncelet me know if you need or want some gdb commands done
23:06.59JeffMthere are no gdb commands that would help
23:07.03JeffMthe crash is over
23:07.14JeffMbreakpoints would have to have been set before the crash
23:07.25JeffMgdb is not magic it can't go back in time
23:07.32I_Died_Oncehow would i set a breakpoint?
23:07.32JeffMusualy the dump is too late
23:07.39I_Died_OnceI just wanna get this fixed
23:07.47JeffMyou would not want to because it would stop there all the time
23:07.51I_Died_Oncegrumble grumble grumble
23:07.52JeffMit isn't something you can fix
23:08.00JeffMgo learn C++
23:08.06JeffMthen debug the client interactivly
23:08.15JeffMand get the problem to duplicate as needed
23:08.39I_Died_OnceI like to think of it as.... we have to much awesomeness and kick-arsedness in play, the clients just keels over
23:08.48I_Died_Once......yeah!
23:08.50JeffMyes you and your ego would think that
23:09.07JeffMbecause you seem to think computers run on unicorn farts and the dreams of small children
23:09.30I_Died_Onceyou mean they don't!??!!?!?!?!?!!!!?!?!?!?!1!11!!!11
23:09.45I_Died_Oncethe server filled right back up too
23:09.51I_Died_Oncewondering if i shouldn't start a recording
23:10.01swiggUnicorn dreams and the farts of small children instead?
23:10.05JeffMno mater how much you want to try and fix it, untill you can get it to duplicate in an active debuger that a developer can interogate there isn't much you can do
23:10.26JeffMit would be interestin to see if a recording causes others to crash when replayed
23:10.27JeffMit may not
23:10.33JeffMa recording is not a full state
23:10.47JeffMbut if there was anything that could duplicate it as needed that would help
23:10.53swiggwhy not just monitor the server traffic instead?
23:11.13swiggif bzfs won't tell you maybe the network will
23:11.30JeffMassuming it's a malformed packet you can identify by eye
23:11.46JeffMthat's a lot of data to sift thru
23:12.01swiggI have long suspected some kind of deauthentication command
23:12.08JeffMhuh?
23:12.35swiggwell.. During such events, my client disappears completely and I have to restart
23:12.43JeffMsure it crashed
23:12.52JeffMthat's what an exception generaly does
23:13.03JeffMthe bzflag code stops running
23:13.15I_Died_OnceI'll say this again, but here - if it turns out to be a cheater, they're going on the ip-table, and submitted to any and all other server owners for ban hammering
23:13.41JeffMrun with no plugins, see if it happens again
23:13.51JeffMassuming you truly want to fix it
23:15.16JeffMswigg, are you saying you feel we have a feature that intentionaly causes a client to segfault and crash?
23:15.31swiggnot so much a feature as a flaw
23:15.46JeffMok sure
23:15.50swiggbut I, as you well know, am an idiot
23:15.55JeffMyeah there are probably tons of bugs that cause crashes
23:16.03JeffManyone who says software is bug free is selling something
23:16.16JeffMthe problem is finding those issues
23:16.29JeffMit is very hard to find them with out the ability to replicate the problem
23:16.39swiggI am thinking about something like a 'Deauth' command for wi-fi cracking
23:16.47JeffMI have no idea what that is
23:17.19JeffMwhat you described is more like a malformed packet and no code to check for valid input on the client side
23:17.20swiggbasically a generic comannd sent via 802.11x which forces a disconnect
23:17.29JeffMthis is a crash
23:17.33JeffMnot a network disconnect
23:17.38swiggsame effect
23:17.42JeffMno
23:17.45JeffMnot at all
23:18.04swiggI willl shut up then; I only have ideas and observations
23:18.05JeffMyour disconnect removes a working device from the network, that devices network stack is still running
23:18.08JeffMit just dosn't connect
23:18.13JeffMhere our code STOPS running
23:18.27JeffMit's like if I send you a command with 2 numbers
23:18.34JeffMand your job is to divide them
23:18.36swiggcan you run BZFS in a sandbox to try to recreate the event?
23:18.38JeffMand I send you 1 and 0
23:18.49JeffMyou will crash if you don't check to see if number 2 is 0
23:18.58JeffMwhat would a sandbox do?
23:19.04JeffMit's the clients that crash
23:19.11swiggencompass all the operating variables
23:19.20JeffMare you a manager?
23:19.26JeffMcus that sounds like manager speak :)
23:19.29swiggof people, yes
23:19.33JeffMyeah
23:19.57JeffMwhat external "variables" do you think are magicaly changing network data?
23:19.58blast007What if we wrap all the code in a crunchy taco shell?
23:20.00swiggI am thinking about the dev kits used for PalmOS and WinCE
23:20.09JeffMblast007, I just checked, we are out of tacos
23:20.12blast007damn.
23:20.21JeffMswigg, is bzfs running on ether of those devices?
23:20.39JeffMand arn't both of those dead?
23:20.47swiggwince lives
23:20.54JeffMsure it does
23:21.05JeffMin the hearts and minds of those who remember it :)
23:21.14JeffMbut no, it is proibalby not some external factor
23:21.15swiggIn my 2012 GPS as well :P
23:21.26JeffMbzfs forms it's own network packets
23:21.32JeffMit does not use any system services other then DNS
23:21.48JeffMso the chance of some other process effecting it would be minimal
23:21.57JeffMunless I_Died_Once's server is totaly banjacked
23:22.09JeffMI mean the simple solution is, don't play on that server
23:22.20JeffMwe know it's running plugins outside the normal set
23:22.22swiggwhat about the UDP processs?
23:22.28JeffMwe don't have one
23:22.34JeffMbzflag is single threaded ;)
23:22.41JeffM1992 FTW!
23:22.48blast007and it wouldn't be a "process"
23:22.56JeffMit's part of the game loop
23:23.04JeffMwe check TCP, then UDP, then unpack it all
23:23.12swiggI meant the phonenemenon which makes clients go NR on certain routers
23:23.13JeffMthen process state, then render
23:23.24JeffMthat's a problem with observers
23:23.34JeffMthey don't send and some routers don't like that
23:23.38swiggPlaying clients too
23:23.53blast007playing clients going NR would just be a really crappy router/AP
23:23.58JeffMI have never heard of a report of an active client going NRin a normal game
23:24.00blast007or poor signal
23:24.03JeffMbut yeah some routers don't like games
23:24.07JeffMor have crap connections
23:24.12blast007I get the NR in observer, but it works fine when playing
23:24.15JeffMor some clients have very low frame rates and that adds to our lag
23:24.15swiggNetgear does it all the time, as does Slink
23:24.26JeffMwhat is your frame rate?
23:24.27swigg*Dlink
23:24.56JeffMwe send out packets as often as we can, if they don't get to the server there isn't anything our program can do about that
23:25.58I_Died_Oncewierd as no plugins are loaded that should affect shots liek that
23:26.00JeffMif your FPS is very low or your network connection is weak/saturated then that will affect how many/often packets get sent
23:26.02swiggduring the mass extinction events I have seen, some (most) of the clients are booted; Some persist
23:26.07I_Died_Oncebut I'm gonna restart in a moment
23:26.41JeffMswigg, thats what we are trying to figure out, to see where in the client code they die
23:27.22JeffMif the crash is caused by a bug with a shot perhaps those that don't see the shot don't execute the buggy code
23:27.31swiggWhy not then run a private test server, same config and put a bunch of bots in it and see what happens?
23:27.48JeffMI have asked for that to happen, someone is unwilling to do so
23:27.49swigga perti dish, so to speak
23:27.56JeffMso he must not want it fixed
23:27.57swigg*petri
23:28.12JeffMthe configuration in question uses plugins that we do not have access too
23:28.43JeffMand at least one that may be mislicensed :)
23:31.15swiggIsn't there an echo logging function in the client?
23:31.21JeffMsure
23:31.25swiggTemp Dist uses that
23:31.29blast007won't help with this issue
23:31.30JeffMof specific states that we decided to log
23:31.32JeffMyeah
23:31.42JeffMa log does not magically contain everything
23:31.43blast007think it mainly just outputs chat
23:31.49JeffMyeah
23:32.01JeffMthe thing you are thinking of is called "a debuger"
23:32.12blast007but maybe knowing that someone said 'lol' may help fix the bug
23:32.18swigghis was logging most of the throughput that I saw including the seperate .cfg file
23:32.37JeffMwhat was the "througput"?
23:33.02swiggJust things that the client would not have normally seen
23:33.11JeffMlike?
23:33.31blast007like justin bieber?
23:33.43swiggthe .cfg file, the complete map, server messages (not the chat ones)
23:33.45JeffMbaby baby baby baby
23:33.46I_Died_OnceI was thinking more like Barbara Streisand
23:33.52swiggthe connection, disconnect, etc
23:34.02JeffMyeah that's just log info
23:34.16JeffMwhat you'd need would be the conteents of every packet
23:34.32blast007how do you log the map?
23:34.35JeffMthen you'd have a hope of seeing what the packet that was sent right before the crash
23:34.41I_Died_Once<PROTECTED>
23:34.45swiggkismet to the rescue
23:34.46JeffMish
23:34.50blast007that's not the original map
23:35.03JeffMyeah, the client dosn't see all the server config options ether
23:35.26blast007that's like converting your MP3 from 320Kbps to 128Kbps and then back to 320
23:35.26I_Died_OnceI found that out the hard way when attempting to re-host a couple of old maps
23:35.48JeffMsaveworld only saves the parts of the map that are sent to the client
23:35.57I_Died_Once<PROTECTED>
23:36.08JeffMnone of that is sent to the client :)
23:36.36JeffMthe client dosn't need to know any of that
23:38.11swiggOk, then. Process of elimination
23:38.22JeffMthat has been sugested SEVERAL times
23:38.24swiggdisable plugins one by one
23:38.27JeffMthe server owner dosn't want to do that
23:38.36JeffMhe may loose his top stop
23:38.38JeffMspot
23:38.46blast007he's actually going to disable all but two shortly
23:38.50JeffMgood
23:38.56JeffMshould have done that yesterday
23:40.02I_Died_Oncewell i wanted to deduce the shot plugins first since at the time those were the most suspect
23:40.24I_Died_Onceand to be honest, I think it would be awesome if someone else were to run a game worth playing on anymore
23:40.30I_Died_Oncebut thats a whoooole other conversation
23:40.32JeffMwhat is your player count usualy at when it dies?
23:40.44I_Died_Oncemore than 20 or 25 people
23:40.57I_Died_Oncesometimes 30 plus
23:41.05swiggwhat is the player limit?
23:41.07JeffMI_Died_Once, get rid of the 150+ extra servers out there
23:41.15JeffMtechincaly 252
23:41.20swiggI bet it's the team balance plugin
23:41.29I_Died_OnceI don't think so
23:41.44I_Died_Oncewe've had it long before that plugins' author came on board with us
23:41.51I_Died_Oncethe crashes that it
23:42.18swiggbut like messing with a player's flags, the players can be kicked if the shots come out wrong
23:42.20I_Died_Once**that is
23:42.32JeffMthe server dosn't know what "wrong" is
23:42.34I_Died_OnceDid I ever mention that I was once a typing champion?
23:42.41JeffMthats the core problem with bzfs
23:43.03swiggtry disabling the endshot credit?
23:43.22JeffMa kick would not cause your client to exit
23:43.58JeffMif it did then you'd see this on any server with active admins
23:44.54blast007/poll crash swigg
23:46.04JeffMmaybe the code is mutating in a non-geonomic manner, perahaps we could revert the logarithms and contstruct some kind of huristic multiplexer
23:46.56swiggthe only other place I have seen such things with frequency was on Ziggurat. Maybe Supra7 might have some idea.
23:46.59JeffMI'll instance some matrixes and decompile an alogorythm or two
23:47.13swiggCall CSI Miami.
23:47.21JeffMwhere are my VR goggles, I need to use unix
23:47.23I_Died_Oncecleaning up the conf a lil
23:47.33blast007Luckily, I can speak leet.
23:47.59blast007The packets are coming from 319.23.51.546!
23:48.14JeffMit's inside the house!!!!!!!
23:48.28I_Died_Oncelol
23:48.45JeffMthere's no place like 127.0.0.1
23:48.48I_Died_Oncewouldn't that be 127.0.0.1 ?
23:48.52blast007we're currently monitoring every IRC channel ever for mentions of the word 'taco' and we're prepared to move in.
23:49.02swigg120.0.0.1 has been spoofed, ya know...
23:49.07swigg*127
23:49.15JeffMblast007, I see it on the large display on the wall, in glowing blue numbers
23:49.20I_Died_Oncethat was pretty funny, yo
23:49.58blast007Windows 8 is kinda an UI like they have on TV...
23:50.31swiggBlast007: have you jumped to * yet?
23:50.34swigg*8
23:50.38blast007nope, I'm sticking on #
23:50.52JeffMwait for ^
23:51.09blast007definitely.
23:51.39swiggwell, there is a guy whoo looks a lot like you in the 8 commercials..
23:51.58JeffMinstall addblock
23:52.17I_Died_Once...how do you know what JeffM looks like?
23:52.29swiggPaid stalker
23:52.30I_Died_Oncenot sure I wanna know the answer to that
23:52.32JeffMbecause he's seen a dos equis comercial!
23:53.01swiggStay thirsty
23:53.30JeffMthere are pictures of me on the interewebs
23:53.39JeffMin a bzflag shirt even
23:54.26swiggI think that even if you disable the plugins, if it is cross interaction conflict between the plugins themselves the problem may not be fixed or discovered; Only alleviated
23:55.21JeffMpossibly
23:55.27JeffMbut it's a thing to try
23:56.12swiggReminds me of Pam on 'Archer' constantly trying to see how many pool balls she can fit in her mouth
23:58.14JeffMok then.....
23:59.10I_Died_Once...

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