| 00:42.54 | Constitution | so apparently the graphics issue between builds earlier was due to different versions of SDL :/ |
| 00:43.07 | onlinecop | Is that's what is going on? |
| 00:43.20 | onlinecop | So it accepts windowed modes, but going fullscreen will die horribly and sadly. |
| 00:44.58 | Constitution | no, different issue while you were gone |
| 00:45.05 | onlinecop | Ah |
| 00:45.55 | Constitution | does it build with xcode? |
| 00:49.48 | onlinecop | Mine still isn't building, but I figure I'm going to have to make an entirely new Xcode project to get it to work on 10.8. |
| 00:50.34 | onlinecop | And I'm still parsing the configure.ac file to know what all needs to be included in it for an "official 10.7 and later" Xcode project. :S |
| 00:51.26 | Constitution | that is certainly the long-term solution |
| 00:52.14 | onlinecop | The only other long-term solutions is to go with the new 3D engine and make it an brand new beast. |
| 00:52.42 | onlinecop | But then it's not really bzflag anymore. |
| 00:52.42 | Constitution | it would still require a new project file :) |
| 00:52.58 | onlinecop | I doubt it would use any of the original SOURCE files, let alone a project file. |
| 00:53.14 | onlinecop | We might as well build it in Unity3d and add "web play support" while we're at it. |
| 00:53.25 | Constitution | eh... one thing at a time :) |
| 00:53.53 | Constitution | setting up an IDE project file is of a relatively small magnitude relative to those other possibilities |
| 00:53.58 | onlinecop | Can I safely ignore all 'configure.ac' lines that begin with 'dnl' and assume they're "// " comment lines? |
| 00:56.10 | blast007 | onlinecop: again, not gonna use Unity3D |
| 00:56.52 | onlinecop | blast007: I know. I was being facetious |
| 00:57.49 | Constitution | in keeping with our standard approach, we should code up support for two or three different 3D engines and allow each as a configure option ;) |
| 00:58.10 | blast007 | vomits |
| 01:07.02 | onlinecop | Well that's certainly fun to clean off a keyboard. |
| 01:17.53 | spldart | I wish I could work at home |
| 01:18.23 | onlinecop | With a wife and home-schooled kids, so do I. :D |
| 01:18.45 | spldart | Hard to replace surface mount thermal pad equipped large scale ic's without expensive equipment :) |
| 01:18.45 | onlinecop | Sometimes I work less at home when I "work at home" than if I were to just go into an office somewhere. |
| 01:19.03 | onlinecop | Meh; just set it up in your garage. |
| 01:19.22 | spldart | With an investment of 10's of thousands of dollars..... |
| 01:20.26 | spldart | did love taking his kids to work with him. Grown up now ;) |
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| 03:56.55 | spldart | feels his midichlorians disturbed |
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| 04:42.42 | lvlinux | it's hard to replace _small_ surface mount ics's without expensive equipment lol |
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| 12:51.25 | blast007 | CIA.vc still dead... |
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| 13:14.26 | spldart | 1v1inux ? |
| 13:17.32 | spldart | I could pop in a 60 pin flat pack ic, no thermal pad, with a radio shack pencil iron and the right kind of solder, rosin and a stripped off loaf of bread wire tie.... It's the large scale stuff.... 220 pins and stuff with soldered thermal pads that makes life difficult. :D |
| 13:18.02 | spldart | Oh.... and very fine tweezers |
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| 16:07.18 | lvlinux | +spldart: wow you're good... what exactly are you working on? |
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| 16:44.10 | Constitution | anyone care if I make http://bzflag.sourceforge.net permanently redirect to http://bzflag.org ? |
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| 16:46.57 | blast007 | Constitution: nope, fine by me |
| 17:12.21 | Constitution | wow, what a bunch of junk we have in there :P |
| 17:14.46 | Constitution | should be all set though |
| 17:34.11 | JeffM | Java's String class makes JeffM cry.... |
| 17:34.23 | blast007 | heh |
| 17:34.49 | JeffM | no operator overload so you have to get "getAt(index);" to get a character |
| 17:35.10 | JeffM | and StringBuilder(string).setAt(index,c) to set one |
| 17:35.46 | blast007 | it's unclear why people still write stuff in Java.. |
| 17:35.57 | JeffM | cus some phones need it is call I can tell |
| 17:36.13 | JeffM | even google is moving away from it |
| 17:36.25 | blast007 | enterprise apps seem to use it a lot as well... |
| 17:36.43 | JeffM | it was one of the first portable VM languages |
| 17:37.00 | Constitution | anyone able to test this mac build for me on 10.6+? http://melinda.fairserve.net/~josh/bzflag/BZFlag-2.4.2.zip |
| 17:37.14 | JeffM | I can when I fire it up |
| 17:38.48 | lvlinux | all the new security issues are scaring a lot of people away from it. |
| 17:39.37 | blast007 | I need to find a way to disable the browser plugin on a few hundred computers.. |
| 17:40.35 | JeffM | you and a bunch of other system admins |
| 17:41.09 | blast007 | seems there's some MSI options you can pass it when you install, but I need to test if that will remove the existing ones |
| 17:41.16 | lvlinux | hehe yeah. what OS? |
| 17:41.19 | blast007 | otherwise I'll have to remove java completely first and then reinstall |
| 17:41.40 | blast007 | lvlinux: windows 7 systems, mostly. handful of XPs too. |
| 17:41.56 | JeffM | Constitution, it loads after I tell OSX it's not a virus |
| 17:42.19 | lvlinux | blast007: you can't do that with your domain policy? |
| 17:42.40 | blast007 | lvlinux: I'm not using active directory, and even with that, no. |
| 17:43.09 | blast007 | *might* be able to do it for IE, but probably not for chrome/firefox |
| 17:44.24 | lvlinux | wow I didn't realize that you couldn't do stuff like that with AD - M$ acts like you can do anything with it - and it seems that disabling a browser plugin, regardless of browser should be like, uh a super-obvious requirement from a security standpoint. |
| 17:45.22 | JeffM | you could have it run a script to check other browsers |
| 17:45.27 | JeffM | so it can do a lot |
| 17:45.32 | JeffM | but it's a lot of work to setup |
| 17:45.56 | blast007 | yeah, there not a "remove java plug-in" option in group policy ;) |
| 17:46.11 | JeffM | yeah it just has hooks for running stuff at startup |
| 17:46.16 | JeffM | or on various events |
| 17:46.31 | JeffM | so it's very powerful in what you can make it do, but it dosn't do everything out of the box |
| 17:46.39 | lvlinux | man I'm glad I'm not locked into that OS here - I forced Linux early on. I've allowed some Mac clients, but otherwise all Linux. |
| 17:46.40 | blast007 | most of GP is just loose enforcement of certain registry values |
| 17:47.02 | blast007 | and I say loose, since a lot of the time it just disables the interface for changing something, not the actual changing of things |
| 17:47.30 | JeffM | is so suprized that blast007's novel solution can't do it ;) |
| 17:47.53 | blast007 | oh it can. it just depends how desperate I get. :P |
| 17:47.58 | JeffM | heh |
| 17:48.08 | lvlinux | hehe |
| 17:48.36 | blast007 | (technically, it can push out group policies as well, though is rather terrible.. you have to create the policy from a computer, and all it does it have you edit the local policy, and then it saves that back to the server..) |
| 17:49.18 | blast007 | for a fun time, disable the ability to run mmc in the policy, and then try editing it again later... :P |
| 17:50.22 | lvlinux | hehe I bet. the windows commandline options arent exactly consistent, much less user-friendly, or intuitive. |
| 17:50.44 | JeffM | windows itself has no command line options |
| 17:50.47 | blast007 | if you want to see stuff that isn't user friendly, then Novell is for you |
| 17:51.14 | lvlinux | Never used Novell before |
| 17:51.28 | lvlinux | what do you mean windows itself has no command line options? |
| 17:51.55 | JeffM | the windows executables have no command line options since a user can never execute it |
| 17:52.02 | JeffM | I think you mean the command line terminal |
| 17:52.10 | blast007 | oh the days of win.com ;) |
| 17:52.13 | JeffM | and the built in commands are prety standard |
| 17:52.33 | lvlinux | yes I didn't actually mean the windows kernel (if you call it that)... |
| 17:53.08 | JeffM | the kernel is part of it |
| 17:53.39 | JeffM | the standard command shell isn't as powerful as most linux shells, but it's not a consistency issue |
| 17:53.48 | lvlinux | pretty standard? hmmm, that's not the impression I got - different switches for different commands -sometimes + sometimes - sometimes \ |
| 17:53.49 | JeffM | servers use powershell and it's much better |
| 17:54.01 | JeffM | that's based on the different authors ;) |
| 17:54.04 | JeffM | you can do that on linux too |
| 17:54.15 | JeffM | the OS does not enforce option standards |
| 17:54.37 | JeffM | all the MS ones that I know of use \, it's bad linux ports that stick with - |
| 17:54.43 | JeffM | like bzflag ;) |
| 17:54.58 | blast007 | the only time I've see + used is for the attrib command... which is like the equivilent of chmod |
| 17:55.05 | lvlinux | yes but among commandline tools, most of the standard tools are consistent. |
| 17:55.33 | JeffM | on linux you can say that many of the GUIs are inconsisent |
| 17:55.47 | lvlinux | I can't remember any offhand, but when I was studying MCITP, I ran across a lot that were very confusing. |
| 17:56.03 | blast007 | and actually, some of the windows commands let you use either - or / and treat them the same |
| 17:56.11 | JeffM | most windows users don't have to use command line |
| 17:56.13 | lvlinux | yes that is true - GUIs on linux have no standardization, even within the same environments sometimes. |
| 17:56.26 | JeffM | many things on linux lack standardization |
| 17:56.37 | JeffM | like the audio APIs |
| 17:56.45 | blast007 | nah, it's just that there's so many standards to choose from! |
| 17:56.48 | JeffM | heh |
| 17:56.54 | JeffM | and they are all incompatable |
| 17:56.55 | lvlinux | now there u have it right on! audio is kindof a mess on Linux |
| 17:57.06 | JeffM | not just kindof, it is |
| 17:57.25 | lvlinux | at least Windows does have directX and mac has the very nice coreaudio - on |
| 17:57.26 | JeffM | your best bet is to do OpenAL and force people to install support for it |
| 17:57.49 | lvlinux | on linux we have uhh, lets see, pulse, alsa, oss, arts, jack, esound, etc. etc. |
| 17:57.50 | JeffM | yeah DirectSound makes it easy, and there are OpenAL wrapers around it so it just works |
| 17:58.26 | blast007 | Windows gives you a small set of choices that all generally work okay. Linux gives you lots of options, some of which do not work, and some of which work great. And OSX gives you one choice, and if it doesn't work, you're holding it wrong. |
| 17:58.32 | JeffM | that and video drivers are what is holding gaming on linux back |
| 17:58.41 | lvlinux | true |
| 17:59.07 | lvlinux | but there is no game but bz - and it runs great on Linux. :) |
| 17:59.14 | JeffM | not all the time |
| 17:59.24 | JeffM | many people have problem with sound |
| 17:59.28 | blast007 | lvlinux: the bullymongs disagree |
| 17:59.39 | JeffM | bonerfarts! |
| 17:59.44 | lvlinux | bullymongs? |
| 17:59.51 | blast007 | lvlinux: exactly |
| 18:00.02 | lvlinux | lol now i'm confused |
| 18:00.12 | blast007 | you wouldn't be if you used Windows and played Borderlands 2 |
| 18:00.16 | JeffM | you meet the firehawk yet? |
| 18:00.20 | blast007 | yeah |
| 18:00.25 | lvlinux | oh i see. |
| 18:00.32 | JeffM | "I just teleported you 10 feet, didn't I?" |
| 18:00.38 | blast007 | ;) |
| 18:01.02 | JeffM | her cult sidequest is a PAIN |
| 18:01.09 | blast007 | that wasn't too bad, really |
| 18:01.11 | JeffM | you have to go back to Capt. Flint's freighter |
| 18:01.30 | JeffM | it took us a long time |
| 18:01.40 | JeffM | tho it was super easy cus the badies didn't scale |
| 18:02.03 | lvlinux | BZ is pretty much the only thing I've played for probably over 10 years. |
| 18:02.15 | JeffM | that is common of many bzflag players that stay |
| 18:02.21 | JeffM | the ones that have played modern games quit |
| 18:02.44 | blast007 | like the Windows 7 solitare game |
| 18:02.56 | blast007 | better graphics |
| 18:03.05 | JeffM | more stable |
| 18:03.11 | JeffM | gets updated more often |
| 18:03.26 | lvlinux | solitaire!???! competes with BZ??? lol |
| 18:03.40 | blast007 | and the mouse works in the menu |
| 18:03.54 | JeffM | lvlinux, it is a better designed game experience |
| 18:04.10 | lvlinux | not for a geek. |
| 18:04.29 | JeffM | no, it is, from a design standpoint |
| 18:04.38 | JeffM | it has clear goals and a clean, consitent interface |
| 18:04.42 | JeffM | bzflag is a bit of a mess |
| 18:04.59 | lvlinux | well true I guess. |
| 18:05.02 | JeffM | when you start it we show an arrow and these big text buttons, but you can't click on them |
| 18:05.17 | lvlinux | so you are fixing that? |
| 18:05.18 | JeffM | if I play as red I can't shoot other red players, but if I play as black I can shot other black players. |
| 18:05.39 | lvlinux | that's because it isn't "black" but rogue. |
| 18:05.41 | JeffM | I have to lead my shots based on what I guess the other person's lag is |
| 18:05.53 | JeffM | lvlinux, and where do we tell a new player those rules? |
| 18:05.58 | lvlinux | now there is a problem |
| 18:06.02 | JeffM | it is not intutive |
| 18:06.13 | JeffM | the core rules arn't bad we need to present them better |
| 18:06.26 | JeffM | it needs an design overhall |
| 18:06.42 | JeffM | a cleanup pass |
| 18:06.47 | lvlinux | well that's true that it's not intuitive - took me a year to find that TAB jumps lol |
| 18:06.49 | JeffM | and a better hud |
| 18:06.53 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:06.58 | JeffM | most people will hit space |
| 18:07.07 | JeffM | cus that's who EVERY OTHER GAME works |
| 18:07.14 | JeffM | how not who :) |
| 18:07.39 | JeffM | there are some expectations in how 3d games work these days and we should probalby at least start out being somewhat compatable with them |
| 18:07.43 | lvlinux | NO don't change tab - I can keep one finger on it and two on 2 and 3 to change radar without moving my hand. |
| 18:07.53 | lvlinux | hehe |
| 18:08.06 | JeffM | I would only change the keymapping for new installs |
| 18:08.16 | JeffM | don't get me started on "radar" |
| 18:08.21 | JeffM | aka god view |
| 18:08.31 | lvlinux | hehe I love it. |
| 18:08.44 | JeffM | yeah because it's 2d gameplay |
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| 18:08.53 | JeffM | it was never suposed to be the primary visual input |
| 18:09.17 | lvlinux | well that's why it is so small, no? |
| 18:09.53 | JeffM | it can be made quite large |
| 18:10.04 | JeffM | and many people want it full screen |
| 18:10.10 | lvlinux | really? how? |
| 18:10.11 | JeffM | we used to allow it fullscreen |
| 18:10.24 | JeffM | you can set your chat size and the radar gets bigger with it |
| 18:10.35 | lvlinux | ah yes I forgot that... |
| 18:10.54 | JeffM | I'd make it act more like real radar and show things around you but not let you see though obstacles |
| 18:11.18 | JeffM | it turns the game into Combat on the atari 2600 |
| 18:11.43 | lvlinux | meh, I don't know... I don't want things to be too realistic - like when they started it with real physics and bullet speed and such... |
| 18:11.53 | JeffM | there is a ballance |
| 18:11.57 | lvlinux | true |
| 18:12.23 | JeffM | finding that ballance is what design should do |
| 18:12.33 | JeffM | but we just let people check in whatever they want |
| 18:12.43 | JeffM | wings was horribly unballancing |
| 18:12.49 | lvlinux | well i gtg - I've enjoyed our software-bashing chat lol... I did learn from you though :-) |
| 18:12.55 | JeffM | have fun |
| 18:12.58 | blast007 | cya |
| 18:13.19 | lvlinux | do you guys play much? |
| 18:13.32 | JeffM | borderlands yeah :) |
| 18:13.37 | lvlinux | on bz I'm core2roo |
| 18:13.57 | lvlinux | anyway gtg cya |
| 18:22.16 | Constitution | does OS X 10.7/8 come with curses/ares/glew libraries at the system level? |
| 18:32.01 | blast007 | I'd think that would be unlikely |
| 18:32.56 | blast007 | cuz doesn't everyone only write Objective-C and target iOS now? |
| 18:33.02 | nico103 | no |
| 18:33.10 | nico103 | :) |
| 18:33.18 | nico103 | plenty of system libraries are still C libraries |
| 18:33.21 | blast007 | nico103: shhhh, you're messing up my trolling ;) |
| 18:33.50 | nico103 | well, that's its own reward |
| 18:34.18 | nico103 | :) |
| 18:34.35 | Constitution | I could judge the likelihood for myself... was looking for more of a definitive answer :) |
| 18:34.36 | nico103 | also, Apple is big on Blocks nowadays too, no? |
| 18:34.51 | nico103 | Constitution: heh, well, I don't have OS X at hand |
| 18:35.03 | nico103 | and I dunno what my wife's imac is running |
| 18:35.29 | Constitution | ashvala helped me, but thanks anyway |
| 18:35.47 | nico103 | well, what was the answer? |
| 18:35.57 | blast007 | I'd have checked, but the newest OSX I have access to is 10.5 ;) |
| 18:36.02 | nico103 | and what is glew? never heard f glew |
| 18:36.11 | Constitution | no ares or glew |
| 18:36.15 | Constitution | ~glew |
| 18:36.17 | blast007 | OpenGL Extension Wrangler, I think it is called |
| 18:36.26 | nico103 | (I guess I date myself if I say I know what curses is...) |
| 18:36.58 | blast007 | yeah, "curses" is that thing the villans shout when the hero thwarts their evil plans |
| 18:37.40 | nico103 | I always thought it was what someone at Berkeley did every time they needed to draw on a tty |
| 18:38.17 | Constitution | ibot glew is the OpenGL Extension Wrangler Library, a cross-platform open-source C/C++ extension loading library. GLEW provides run-time mechanisms for determining which OpenGL extensions are supported on the target platform, and exposes OpenGL core and extension functionality in a single header file |
| 18:38.17 | ibot | okay, Constitution |
| 18:38.31 | spldart | lvlinux: HDMI circuitry. Sometimes DSP circuits. |
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| 19:32.46 | JeffM | Constitution, do you need me to look at anything on ML? |
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| 21:27.01 | Constitution | JeffM: ashvala checked for me, thanks |
| 21:27.10 | JeffM | k |
| 21:27.47 | Constitution | I am pondering how we are going to build our dependencies with no GCC in later OS X versions |
| 21:29.53 | JeffM | we'll have to build xcode projects for them, hence why it's a pain in the butt |
| 21:30.23 | Constitution | oh joy |
| 21:30.58 | JeffM | another reason to go with torque |
| 21:31.31 | JeffM | I had to build projects for evetyhing that didn't have them on windows, xcode just has gone the same way |
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