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| 19:10.50 | ThePurplePanzer | I've had this idea for a world for a while - it would likely require a code change, but maybe not anything huge. The basic idea is a world that is a small, spherical asteroid - so you can drive completely around it in any direction, and arrive back at your starting point. Gravity, as one would expect, would always be "down" towards the center of the asteroid. Locally (near one's tank) |
| 19:10.50 | ThePurplePanzer | everything would be as it is now, that is a locally flat differential geometry, but of course more globally curved. Shots should probably drop as they go around the asteroid, staying a fixed distance about the ground, as they do now. The similarities (locally) to what's currently working suggests it might be a marginal modification. I've tried to think of a way to do this in the current |
| 19:10.50 | ThePurplePanzer | system, and the gravity vector direction is the big thing that I can't get around. Thoughts most welcome - |
| 19:17.31 | I_Died_Once | that sounds fun |
| 19:17.42 | I_Died_Once | reminds me of the Little Prince cartoon from back in the day |
| 19:18.03 | I_Died_Once | buddy would catch a comet with his butterfly net and fly to another world |
| 19:22.19 | JeffM | ThePurplePanzer, that'd be a sizeable change |
| 19:22.48 | JeffM | you'd have to change the entire internal structure if you wanted to do the curvature |
| 19:22.58 | JeffM | it'd be much simpler to do a flat "warp" wraparound |
| 19:23.01 | ThePurplePanzer | Hey, a more immediate question - I've got an admin that somehow now can't be globally authenticated; with the server password she used to be able to act as an admin, but now she's auto-tossed off. In one log file (I think from a plugin) I see "Got TOKBAD:" Any idea what might be causing that? |
| 19:23.13 | ThePurplePanzer | What is a flat warp wraparound? |
| 19:23.55 | JeffM | they have a bad token, ether they are not using their forum password in game, or they have a chacing proxy |
| 19:24.04 | JeffM | flat wraparound would be like pacman |
| 19:24.17 | JeffM | it all depends on what you want the 3d view to look like |
| 19:24.30 | JeffM | do you want a horizon that people go under? |
| 19:25.42 | ThePurplePanzer | I would think the horizon would look like an edge to the world, not something one would go under - the visible world would be basically circular |
| 19:26.07 | ThePurplePanzer | what is the 'chacing proxy' - caching? Something left over somehow? |
| 19:26.07 | JeffM | with a horizon as things go past it they seem to drop down |
| 19:26.37 | JeffM | many ISPs use a chacing proxy server upstream to save bandwith, it causes the client to get the same token back multiple times |
| 19:26.40 | ThePurplePanzer | True, for very strong curvature it would be like you're always on a hilltop |
| 19:26.45 | JeffM | 2.4.2 should help prevent that |
| 19:27.22 | JeffM | yeah if you want to draw a curved world and track everyone in correct 3d space around that sphere, you are looking at redoing a boatload of stuff |
| 19:27.39 | JeffM | even drawing if you wanted to curve the objects |
| 19:27.45 | JeffM | since they are all flat polygons now |
| 19:27.49 | ThePurplePanzer | But it's essentially still a 2D world, just distorted in presentation. |
| 19:28.02 | JeffM | openGL does all things in 3d |
| 19:28.07 | ThePurplePanzer | OK. |
| 19:28.17 | JeffM | so it's not a 2d world, it's a 3d world |
| 19:28.36 | JeffM | you would be using a spherical projection to take 2.5d map to define the 3d world |
| 19:28.38 | ThePurplePanzer | And I bet OpenGL doesn't have a "put me in a non-Euclidean geometry" setting. |
| 19:28.49 | JeffM | that projection is much more complicated then what we do |
| 19:29.02 | JeffM | what you describe is eculidean |
| 19:29.09 | JeffM | just not orthonormal |
| 19:29.18 | JeffM | we live on a sphere |
| 19:29.29 | ThePurplePanzer | No, spherical geometries aren't. YOu can, for instance, have the angles of a triangle add up to 270 degrees. |
| 19:29.30 | JeffM | and XYZ all work just fine ;) |
| 19:29.39 | JeffM | that's not a triangle |
| 19:29.43 | JeffM | that's 3 curves |
| 19:29.43 | ThePurplePanzer | Right, I see you'r point. |
| 19:29.56 | JeffM | there is no such thing as "2d space" |
| 19:30.01 | JeffM | that's a conceptual thing |
| 19:30.17 | JeffM | GL takes triangles and draws them to the screen |
| 19:30.19 | ThePurplePanzer | No, on a sphere, say on the Earth, a straight line from the North Pole to one point on the equator, then another point on the equator, then back to the pole *is* a triangle; and each angle is 90 degrees. |
| 19:30.21 | JeffM | real linear triangles |
| 19:30.36 | JeffM | that's not a triangle |
| 19:30.40 | JeffM | that's a curved surface patch |
| 19:30.48 | JeffM | a triangle would not be constrained by the surface |
| 19:31.13 | ThePurplePanzer | Any way to fix the upstream caching thing? |
| 19:31.14 | JeffM | by applying the surface constraint you are arbitrarly calling it a conceptual triangle |
| 19:31.21 | JeffM | yeah use port 81 |
| 19:31.25 | JeffM | if that's the problem |
| 19:31.46 | JeffM | do they get any token errors localy when they get the server list? |
| 19:31.47 | ThePurplePanzer | How would she do that on the client side? Or do I have to use that as the port number? |
| 19:31.54 | ThePurplePanzer | (I'll ask) |
| 19:32.07 | JeffM | in the config is the list server URL, take out the # and add :81 to the end |
| 19:32.16 | JeffM | or use 2.4.2 |
| 19:33.48 | JeffM | OpenGL can use various matrix transformations to change how things are displayed, but spherical projection is not a simple matrix transform |
| 19:34.06 | JeffM | you could probalby write a shader to do it, but it'd be easier and better to properly simulate the entire thing as a sphere |
| 19:34.56 | JeffM | by your logic of calling 3 arcs a triangle, then a monitor would be 4 arcs :) |
| 19:35.11 | JeffM | and that just isn't the case, so no mater what you have to convert to an orthonormal display |
| 19:39.20 | ThePurplePanzer | This might not be a debate that's going anywhere. I come from the physics world. And you can have 2-dimensional worlds (really - experimentally you work between layers of graphite, etc.), and even fractional dimensions. Changing the basic space metric is very close to (and often identical to) changing the geometry. Then there's the whole issue of 'embedding' a lower-dimensional space in a |
| 19:39.20 | ThePurplePanzer | higher one, which is kind of where we're at in talking about the earth, but (as Feynman pointed out in one of his talks) you can get the same situation without embedding, by having local measurement changes. It is a fascinating topic, but probably has little to do with OpenGL. |
| 19:39.51 | ThePurplePanzer | On the other front, she's trying 2.4.2, has the same problem. I passed on your earlier msg verbatim, will check |
| 19:40.10 | JeffM | Is she trying to use the server password in the password field in the game? |
| 19:40.13 | JeffM | cus that won't work |
| 19:40.44 | ThePurplePanzer | No. She goes in with her normal password, but isn't authenticated - let me ask her (on skype) what the error is |
| 19:40.52 | JeffM | and your 2d worlds are ether math, or "close enough" simulations. working between layers of grafite just makes contstraints |
| 19:41.24 | JeffM | the client will try to authenticate when it gets the list of games, it should say it got a TOKOK or an error then |
| 19:42.02 | ThePurplePanzer | When she tries to log in normall, she gets a msg that says that her callsign is registered and that she should use global authentication. |
| 19:42.10 | ThePurplePanzer | she's checking the exact msg |
| 19:42.58 | ThePurplePanzer | "That callsign is registered. You must use global indentification before playing or use a different callsign". |
| 19:43.28 | ThePurplePanzer | Her password should not have changed; if it were hacked, and she was using an invalid one, would she see the above msg, or some sort of incorrect pwd msg? |
| 19:43.36 | JeffM | that's after she connects |
| 19:43.53 | JeffM | this would be BEFORE you connect |
| 19:44.15 | JeffM | when she gets a list of games, the chat box will say if she got a token or not |
| 19:44.23 | ThePurplePanzer | Let me mention that |
| 19:44.28 | JeffM | this is all outside of the server that has the problem |
| 19:44.57 | JeffM | cus the server is just saying that it could not authenticate her, but what we don't know is if she has a valid login or not |
| 19:45.23 | ThePurplePanzer | Presumably, but if she gets to the server, and uses the server password, she's now immediately disconnected; this wasn't the case initially, seems to be a new bebavior. |
| 19:45.40 | ThePurplePanzer | (I've asked her to try to log in to the user forums just to test that). |
| 19:45.43 | JeffM | you do not use the server password AT ALL with global auth |
| 19:45.55 | JeffM | when using global auth you should not even SET a server password |
| 19:45.56 | ThePurplePanzer | Right, we tried that as a backup fix |
| 19:46.06 | JeffM | server passwords are a huge security flaw |
| 19:46.11 | JeffM | they are sent plaintext over the wire |
| 19:46.54 | ThePurplePanzer | Good to know. But, as I say, I thought that would maybe circumvent what might have been a temporary network issue |
| 19:47.03 | JeffM | no, if the server says it got a tokbad then it did contact us |
| 19:47.09 | JeffM | and it rejected her token |
| 19:47.15 | JeffM | so everyone is talking to the right people |
| 19:47.32 | JeffM | knowing if she got a valid token or not will tell us if she has a local problem or not |
| 19:48.21 | ThePurplePanzer | Hey, she just told me this: "I don't get a list of servers. The guy from whom I have the internet connection only allows a few ports so when I want a server list I can't communicate with it." So, I suspect she can't talk to whatever does the global auth either. Any particular ports to open to fix it, or is this beyond the pale? |
| 19:48.37 | ThePurplePanzer | (my feeling is something of a forehead slap...) |
| 19:48.53 | JeffM | then she can't use global authentication andshould not be playing games on a connection she dosn't own :) |
| 19:49.04 | JeffM | the list server IS the global auth |
| 19:49.11 | JeffM | there is only one thingy |
| 19:49.13 | ThePurplePanzer | any ports it requires? |
| 19:49.17 | JeffM | 80 or 81 |
| 19:49.26 | JeffM | the normal web ones |
| 19:49.36 | ThePurplePanzer | jeez, I would have thought 80 would have been open... |
| 19:49.44 | JeffM | he must have her DNS locked too |
| 19:49.46 | JeffM | not just ports |
| 19:49.56 | JeffM | spend 20$ and get a DSL geez |
| 19:50.22 | ThePurplePanzer | yeah, she's finishing a master's degree in France, is in a temporary status for just a few months. |
| 19:50.35 | JeffM | still, who lockes down internet that tight |
| 19:50.42 | JeffM | bandwith is super cheeap in europe |
| 19:50.54 | ThePurplePanzer | So I think it's an artifact of the bldg/apartment/suite deal. |
| 19:51.01 | JeffM | doubtful |
| 19:51.07 | JeffM | but whatever |
| 19:51.12 | JeffM | she has to fix the list server issue |
| 19:51.23 | ThePurplePanzer | Right; I think we know where the problem is. thx. |
| 19:51.33 | JeffM | between the keyboard and the chair |
| 19:52.43 | ThePurplePanzer | (I won't tell her that; quite a temper there!) |
| 19:53.12 | JeffM | wellk she can't ask "why dosn't this part work" when she knows that part of it dosn't work and why. |
| 19:53.20 | JeffM | that's just being dumb |
| 19:53.29 | JeffM | for anyone |
| 19:54.02 | ThePurplePanzer | I think she early on asked *me* for what ports she had to have, and it didn't occur to me to even mention port 80. |
| 19:54.30 | JeffM | bzflag dosn't do well in a port restricted environment, we don't controll what port the server uses |
| 19:54.43 | JeffM | it was not meant to be played over the internet ;) |
| 19:55.41 | ThePurplePanzer | About a year ago I'd pointed her to some nice proxy hacks that let people get around such things, and she tried, but never got anything to work, then had network problems. It's actually a fascinating field - circumventing censorship, etc. |
| 19:56.45 | JeffM | it's not really censorship if she chose to use it |
| 19:56.53 | JeffM | there are so many other connection optiosn available |
| 19:57.15 | ThePurplePanzer | No, not in her case; I was just pointing out that the subject relates to an interesting constellation of topics. |
| 20:00.42 | JeffM | it is a problem that has been solved many times on the internets |
| 20:05.08 | ThePurplePanzer | Reminds me of the Mark Twain comment about quitting smoking: "It's easy to quit smoking. I've done it many times." |
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| 21:12.18 | JeffM | blast007, he uses a joystick and wants the hats |
| 21:51.49 | blast007 | JeffM: then he's going to have lots of fun |
| 22:09.04 | JeffM | yep |
| 22:09.30 | JeffM | I figure it's going to take 16-24 hours of work to redo the xcode project |
| 22:09.49 | JeffM | I can see how to do it, its just super tedious and boring as hell |
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| 22:41.56 | allejo | but that's why Mac users love you JeffM |
| 22:43.03 | blast007 | pull an X-Chat and make it shareware |
| 22:45.43 | JeffM | heh |
| 22:45.53 | JeffM | free code, pay for bins |
| 22:46.01 | JeffM | that'd be pretty harsh for a game |
| 22:46.04 | JeffM | but give us money |
| 22:46.52 | JeffM | having money would be good if we had a framework to spend it |
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