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| 12:55.17 | I_Died_Once | >seen swigg |
| 13:26.52 | blast007 | I_Died_Once: use /ns info swigg |
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| 18:04.05 | JeffM | ponders putting the rest of the shirts on sale just to get rid of em |
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| 18:13.24 | Constitution | how many are left? |
| 18:13.36 | JeffM | proably 10-15 |
| 18:17.36 | Constitution | the project could host a tournament, and collect entry fees, then give out the shirts as prizes |
| 18:18.59 | JeffM | thats hard on shiping |
| 18:19.08 | JeffM | different people have different shipping costs |
| 18:19.14 | JeffM | if germany won, we'd loose money |
| 18:19.32 | Constitution | if your money is loose, why don't you tie it down? |
| 18:19.40 | JBdiGriz | Make the entry fee higher, and find a sponsor |
| 18:19.40 | JeffM | heh |
| 18:19.52 | Constitution | ~spell loose |
| 18:23.13 | JeffM | I also don't know about the legality of collecting a fee for a contest |
| 18:34.56 | JBdiGriz | jeffm never does anything "illegal" |
| 18:35.08 | JeffM | begs to differ |
| 18:37.07 | JeffM | I've been researching quite a bit on what it would take to do things "Proper" with a game project |
| 18:37.14 | JeffM | to let it handle money and such |
| 18:38.44 | JBdiGriz | Just make it a religious organization, and we should be fine. |
| 18:38.52 | JeffM | heh |
| 18:39.00 | JeffM | you know how hard that is to set up? |
| 18:39.12 | JeffM | it's worse then a non profit |
| 18:39.20 | JeffM | cus it's abused so much |
| 18:39.22 | JBdiGriz | I have set up corporations, but not religious ones. |
| 18:39.32 | JeffM | yeah a simple LLC would work fine |
| 18:39.37 | JeffM | dosn't even need to be non profit |
| 18:39.55 | JeffM | as long as all the profits are 1099ed into real people who would pay taxes on them |
| 18:40.04 | BulletCatcher | All bow to the Great Tank In The Sky! |
| 18:40.16 | JBdiGriz | Those have recurring expenses though. We would have to make about $5K per year on the project to break even. |
| 18:40.30 | JeffM | depends on where you do it |
| 18:40.54 | JeffM | setting it up in nevada would take less then 1k the first year and only a few hundred dollars recuring each year |
| 18:41.11 | JBdiGriz | There are still taxes to be filed (unless you want to handle that for free) |
| 18:41.38 | JeffM | if you set up the LLC as a pasthrough it would just go into the taxes of the owners |
| 18:42.02 | JeffM | thats the advantage of an LLC over an sCorp |
| 18:42.11 | JBdiGriz | I'm pretty sure you still have to file for the LLC as well. It's not the payments, it's the filing. |
| 18:42.29 | JeffM | yeah that 1k of the first year takes filing of the LLC into account |
| 18:42.31 | JeffM | using a service |
| 18:42.43 | JeffM | nevada has VERY few fees |
| 18:42.49 | JBdiGriz | How about the following years? |
| 18:43.07 | JeffM | I think that it woudl cost about 500$ |
| 18:43.34 | JBdiGriz | Does Nevada require the nonsensical meeting minutes per year? |
| 18:43.39 | JeffM | nope |
| 18:43.52 | JBdiGriz | That saves a bit more as well. |
| 18:43.57 | JeffM | nevada dosn't even report profits to the federal guberment |
| 18:44.06 | JeffM | nevada is the honey badger of states |
| 18:44.35 | JeffM | deleware is also nice, but mostly if you want to have good coprorate courts |
| 18:44.49 | JBdiGriz | And we could have annual meetings in Las Vegas or Reno, which would also be a business expense. |
| 18:44.53 | JeffM | heh |
| 18:45.17 | JeffM | nevada does require the LLC to have a mailing address in the state for official documents |
| 18:45.22 | JeffM | but that can be a forwarding company |
| 18:45.29 | JeffM | and they seem to charge about 100$ year |
| 18:45.56 | JBdiGriz | I don't know of any players in Nevada |
| 18:46.30 | JeffM | I would not set that kind of org up for BZFlag's current income structure but I think it would work for a project with a stronger income stream, like the optional membership subscriptions I've writen about. |
| 18:47.08 | JBdiGriz | So the project would only have to make about $1K per year to break even. |
| 18:47.10 | JeffM | if you have a fairly consistent income stream it becomes easier to make long term plans |
| 18:47.16 | JeffM | probably |
| 18:48.02 | JeffM | I was thinking of $4 a month on paypal renewal for a membership, so break even happens at about 30 people after fees |
| 18:48.06 | JBdiGriz | You have somewhat of a chicken/egg problem. You have to set up an income structure to make it work, but you can't really set it up without doing the filing. |
| 18:48.16 | JeffM | yes |
| 18:48.43 | JeffM | I would do a kickstarter program to raise about 3 grand and give those people a free year of membership |
| 18:48.56 | JeffM | that would be enough to start the org and run for a year or 2 |
| 18:49.19 | JBdiGriz | You type faster than I do. |
| 18:49.35 | JeffM | possibly ;) |
| 18:49.35 | JBdiGriz | I was thinking about finding a group to fund about 5 years. |
| 18:49.56 | JBdiGriz | Instead of free membership, make them partners in the organization. |
| 18:49.58 | JeffM | 5 would be better |
| 18:50.07 | JeffM | possibly |
| 18:50.26 | JeffM | I would make that one of the higher teir rewards |
| 18:50.28 | JBdiGriz | You probably would want people who are known to be willing to contribute some time as well as money. |
| 18:50.38 | JeffM | give 1k to the kickstarter, become a partner |
| 18:50.49 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:51.11 | JBdiGriz | Partnership doesn't have to be equal. Someone who gives $100 could own 1/10 as much as someone who gives $1K |
| 18:51.16 | JeffM | using kickstarter as a "preorder" system seems to work out for a number of projects |
| 18:51.31 | JeffM | that's just more paperwork and I don't think offers that person any real advantage |
| 18:51.44 | JeffM | and they may have expectations that are not realistic for what a "partner" means |
| 18:52.03 | JeffM | but you could deal with that on a case by case basis |
| 18:52.07 | JBdiGriz | Of course, you don't have to give the partners full ownership of the org either. It could just be 10% for the initial $5K |
| 18:52.20 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:52.30 | JeffM | if they are willing to deal with the passthrough taxes |
| 18:52.53 | JeffM | they would be responsible for taxes on 10% of the profits |
| 18:53.08 | JeffM | but those are all possiblities |
| 18:53.15 | JBdiGriz | That's fairly easy to deal with. I think it's a form K-1, and chances are pretty good there won't be enough profits to worry about. |
| 18:53.32 | JeffM | I think there is enough wiggle room with all the options that it could be worked out |
| 18:54.16 | JBdiGriz | I worked with another organization that set up something similar. |
| 18:54.24 | JeffM | the only thing a non proifit would let the org do would be to take large donations and have them be tax deuctable to the donator |
| 18:54.42 | JeffM | and if the project has it's own income stream I don't think that's an important issue |
| 18:55.02 | JeffM | once you know your expenses, you set up a code bounty system that will pay out the rest of the money for tasks |
| 18:55.07 | JeffM | and then just 1099 everyone |
| 18:55.31 | JBdiGriz | It's still a fair amount of work to set up originally. |
| 18:55.35 | JeffM | yes |
| 18:55.49 | JeffM | but at least it would be sustanable after that |
| 18:56.26 | JeffM | I've seen that it's easier to get peopel to do a bunch of work at the start of a project and harder to get them to do a lot of work at later dates :) |
| 18:56.53 | JeffM | so front load all the hard stuff to when there is the most interest and then you are easy from then on |
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| 21:59.26 | Propane_Tank | What does this mean? It was in my log file and I had a whole lot of it, this is just a short excerpt. My log file is 24MB. http://pastebin.com/vFnFnMfc |
| 22:00.18 | Propane_Tank | I also have quite a bit of this. http://pastebin.com/0dxnegMu |
| 22:03.20 | BulletCatcher | You have a high level of debugging enabled on your server, probably -dddd. |
| 22:03.44 | Propane_Tank | i'll check, but i don't think so. |
| 22:04.15 | Propane_Tank | i have bzflag.hostedfree.net query the ports to check if their up...could be bad programming there but the urls don't seem to point to that |
| 22:04.20 | BulletCatcher | The first one shows the HTTP connection data as it loads the masterban file and announces itself to the list server. |
| 22:05.15 | Propane_Tank | the config says -d |
| 22:06.28 | Propane_Tank | and it was only in that instance. none of the other ones showed that |
| 22:06.35 | BulletCatcher | Hmm. I'm not sure what triggers curl to show all of that. |
| 22:06.38 | JeffM | that looks like a lot more then a single -d |
| 22:07.18 | BulletCatcher | Maybe we ought to log the number of d's. :-) |
| 22:07.25 | JeffM | heh |
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| 22:07.35 | JeffM | a "debuging set to level N" would be nice at the start |
| 22:07.51 | BulletCatcher | indeed |
| 22:08.15 | BulletCatcher | Only when N is greater than zero, of course. |
| 22:08.35 | JeffM | I dunno, logic is hard. |
| 22:08.38 | Propane_Tank | amd ot |
| 22:08.46 | Propane_Tank | and it's never done it before either* |
| 22:09.00 | JeffM | yes bzflag as has no logic to it at all |
| 22:09.07 | JeffM | who would want to rock the boat |
| 22:10.03 | BulletCatcher | The "Speed log" messages require a debug level of 4. |
| 22:10.23 | blast007 | Propane_Tank: check your map file as well as your config |
| 22:10.29 | blast007 | since the -d's will add up |
| 22:10.44 | blast007 | so if you have -d in your config and -ddd in the map, you'll get -dddd :P |
| 22:10.47 | Propane_Tank | i am one step a head of you and i only have -set in the options |
| 22:11.31 | BulletCatcher | The "Speed log" messages are merely informational, and their mere presence just means that tank speeds are being checked to see if they are too high. |
| 22:11.32 | blast007 | well, then you have four d's in your configuration file, then |
| 22:11.50 | Propane_Tank | no. only one. i'm tellin ya |
| 22:12.00 | blast007 | well, you're wrong. |
| 22:12.01 | Propane_Tank | -d is all thats there, checked it twice |
| 22:12.13 | Propane_Tank | and i have never modified it in the last 4 months at least |
| 22:12.33 | Propane_Tank | and i've rebooted the server atleast 4 times in that amount of time and only this time has it shown all that in the lofg |
| 22:12.34 | Propane_Tank | log* |
| 22:13.05 | BulletCatcher | No matter how it happened, your debug level is set to 4. |
| 22:13.09 | Propane_Tank | and it's doing it again |
| 22:13.33 | blast007 | logDebugMessage(4,"Player %s [%d] uread() %s:%d len %d from %s:%d on %i\n", |
| 22:13.42 | BulletCatcher | Are there any -d's on the bzfs command line? |
| 22:13.45 | blast007 | see the 4 there? that message only shows up at debug level 4 |
| 22:14.03 | Propane_Tank | well idk how its on level 4 debug |
| 22:14.19 | blast007 | you're telling it to do that somewhere |
| 22:14.21 | blast007 | check what BulletCatcher said |
| 22:14.30 | Propane_Tank | no -d in the startup command |
| 22:14.40 | JeffM | computers only do what you tell them to do |
| 22:14.55 | Propane_Tank | unless it's some hacking attempt... |
| 22:14.55 | blast007 | Propane_Tank: and you're looking at the correct config file, right? :P |
| 22:14.58 | blast007 | .... |
| 22:15.01 | BulletCatcher | There are 3 places to look: the bzfs command line, any config files referenced with -conf, and in the map file. |
| 22:15.01 | Propane_Tank | thats the only clausable reason |
| 22:15.05 | JeffM | hacking? |
| 22:15.18 | Propane_Tank | i have not modified anything to these servers since i started em up |
| 22:15.20 | blast007 | yeah, cuz it can't be user error. must be a hacker! |
| 22:15.22 | JeffM | this word, I do not think it means what you think it means |
| 22:15.39 | blast007 | Propane_Tank: better reinstall your OS right now, cuz of the hacker! |
| 22:15.42 | Propane_Tank | unless the map maker was sneaky |
| 22:15.55 | JeffM | there isn't much you can do to be sneaky |
| 22:16.04 | BulletCatcher | I am sure that if you examine those 3 places carefully you will find at least 4 -d options. |
| 22:16.05 | blast007 | check the whole map file |
| 22:16.17 | blast007 | there could be multiple option blocks |
| 22:16.45 | Propane_Tank | i think i found the culprit |
| 22:16.54 | Propane_Tank | i have a query scipt that is badly coded |
| 22:17.01 | Propane_Tank | and it's only querying that port |
| 22:17.11 | JeffM | the script is hacking the server! |
| 22:17.33 | Propane_Tank | so whats the proper way to query the server and check each port? |
| 22:17.40 | Propane_Tank | n00b at php here |
| 22:17.46 | JeffM | in the US hackers == terrorists, say goodbye to your civil rights. |
| 22:18.00 | JeffM | it depends on what you want to do |
| 22:18.12 | Propane_Tank | just check to see if the server is up or not |
| 22:18.24 | Propane_Tank | what i have works, but not as efficient |
| 22:18.24 | JeffM | how are you connecting to it? |
| 22:18.26 | Propane_Tank | as you can tell |
| 22:18.27 | blast007 | Propane_Tank: how would that change your configruation? |
| 22:18.31 | Propane_Tank | fsocket open |
| 22:18.45 | Propane_Tank | anyway. gotta go be back in a bit |
| 22:18.46 | JeffM | that should be all you nead |
| 22:18.56 | JeffM | that won't do anythign wierd to your logs |
| 22:23.32 | blast007 | Propane_Tank: somewhere in your config(s) or map(s) you are setting a minimum of 4 debug levels total. That's all there is to it. Your query script has nothing to do with it. |
| 22:23.56 | blast007 | can't plugins set the debug level as well? |
| 22:24.00 | JeffM | yep |
| 22:24.24 | blast007 | bz_setDebugLevel |
| 22:24.34 | blast007 | unlikely the problem, but possible |
| 22:25.04 | blast007 | None of the official plugins use that. |
| 22:25.19 | JeffM | maybe the hacker installed a plugin |
| 22:27.11 | blast007 | it's funny how many people jump straight to "it's a hacker!" when someone "odd" happens with software |
| 22:27.14 | blast007 | something* |
| 22:27.30 | JeffM | it makes me wonder what they think hacking actualy is |
| 22:27.48 | blast007 | a black screen with white text! |
| 22:27.52 | JeffM | if a remote user could edit the config, they would not need to edit the config :) |
| 22:28.17 | JeffM | I thought it was green text |
| 22:29.17 | blast007 | nah, the command prompt default is white ;) |
| 22:29.28 | blast007 | "omg, is that ping trying to hack google??" |
| 22:30.48 | Propane_Tank | it is on the map that runs the turret plugin...thats the only thing new |
| 22:31.09 | blast007 | grep for that function name |
| 22:31.19 | blast007 | in your plugin directory |
| 22:31.25 | Propane_Tank | but every time that someone loads bzflag.hostedfree.net my log file grows a bit and writes stuff to it |
| 22:31.37 | Propane_Tank | grows by .1KB |
| 22:31.52 | JeffM | you really have no clue what you are doing, do you? |
| 22:32.05 | blast007 | he started off with a Windows VPS, so, no, he doesn't |
| 22:32.13 | JeffM | oh my |
| 22:32.36 | Propane_Tank | huh? i started on Linux |
| 22:32.46 | Propane_Tank | windows is for mc |
| 22:33.01 | blast007 | pretty sure you had a windows VPS and were trying to run bzfs on it |
| 22:33.07 | Propane_Tank | and before the windows one it was ran off linux also |
| 22:33.21 | JeffM | why would you run a minecraft server on windows? do you like pain? |
| 22:33.22 | Propane_Tank | well ya, but that was just to see if windows really did suck for bzflag |
| 22:33.33 | Propane_Tank | no, i like simplicity |
| 22:33.44 | JeffM | it's super easy to setup on linux |
| 22:34.07 | JeffM | but still, if you don't know what your plugins are doing then you've got bigger issues |
| 22:34.13 | Propane_Tank | but you can't just download files on the machine it self (say browsing the plugin list on bukkit |
| 22:34.14 | Propane_Tank | ) |
| 22:34.26 | blast007 | yes you can |
| 22:34.42 | JeffM | by hacking |
| 22:34.47 | blast007 | lol |
| 22:35.08 | JeffM | do you have the source for any non standard plugins you are running? |
| 22:35.09 | blast007 | Propane_Tank: wget or a text-based browser - bam, downloading stuff |
| 22:35.38 | Propane_Tank | i think bukkit uses javascript |
| 22:35.46 | blast007 | then just SCP it |
| 22:35.52 | JeffM | linux browsers can use javascript |
| 22:35.57 | Propane_Tank | text based? |
| 22:36.01 | JeffM | some can IIRC |
| 22:36.04 | JeffM | depends on what they do |
| 22:36.13 | JeffM | but still you have options |
| 22:36.28 | JeffM | and getting the files for minecraft is not the major task in hosting. |
| 22:36.36 | JeffM | finding more ram then god is |
| 22:37.10 | JeffM | but for your bzfs problem, do you have the sources for your non standard plugins? |
| 22:37.40 | Propane_Tank | ye |
| 22:37.41 | Propane_Tank | a |
| 22:37.47 | JeffM | the |
| 22:37.47 | JeffM | n |
| 22:37.52 | JeffM | look in them |
| 22:37.58 | JeffM | see if they set the debug level |
| 22:39.04 | Propane_Tank | ran grep bz_setDebugLevel * in the turret source directory and returned nada |
| 22:39.24 | JeffM | well something is settting it, you will have to find it |
| 22:40.00 | blast007 | grep -r bz_setDebugLevel /path/to/your/bzflag-source/plugins/ |
| 22:40.02 | JeffM | a non client connection from a script won't trigger extra debuging |
| 22:40.09 | Propane_Tank | looking back at the logfile, i do get some turret debug stuff |
| 22:40.33 | blast007 | is your map multiple files? |
| 22:40.39 | Propane_Tank | nope |
| 22:40.43 | Propane_Tank | just map and conf file |
| 22:41.04 | blast007 | well, you're doing something. it's not our problem. |
| 22:41.29 | Propane_Tank | i'll have to look at it later. gotta go to work soon |
| 22:43.06 | Propane_Tank | this seems to be trigger by the script.... Peer 109.169.80.204 connection timeout with data "" |
| 22:43.13 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:43.22 | JeffM | that's your non player connection timing out |
| 22:43.28 | JeffM | we log that at level 4 |
| 22:44.58 | JeffM | some people call me a space cowboy |
| 22:48.40 | I_Died_Once | I call him Maurice |
| 22:48.53 | JeffM | damn right |
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