| 02:43.28 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (~ibot@rikers.org) |
| 02:43.28 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://my.BZFlag.org || http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || BZFlag 2.4.2 is in devlopment, please take a task || The PLAN http://my.bzflag.org/w/Development_RoadMap |
| 02:43.29 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 02:44.13 | JeffM | hey ibot, feeling specialy usless today? |
| 02:48.42 | blast007 | ~yes |
| 02:48.43 | ibot | yes is probably the opposite of no |
| 02:48.50 | blast007 | there you have it |
| 02:50.52 | yosef | ~bzflag |
| 02:50.52 | ibot | from memory, bzflag is a 3D internet multiplayer multiplatform (win32, linux, mac, etc) opensource opengl Battlezone capture the flag game of the same name that you must try at http://BZFlag.org/ or a continual development project with periodic gaming interuptions. See also TimRiker |
| 02:51.16 | yosef | ~blast007 |
| 02:51.16 | ibot | from memory, blast007 is a cheese stealer |
| 02:51.22 | yosef | hmm |
| 02:52.34 | JeffM | hahah at the last part |
| 02:52.42 | JeffM | ever single part is false :) |
| 03:14.12 | yosef | I wouldn't be so sure |
| 03:14.54 | JeffM | what it has development? people play it? and tim riker has anything to do with it anymore? |
| 03:25.56 | yosef | it has some development. people play it. tim riker owns some part of it |
| 03:26.07 | yosef | although the gist of your words is correct |
| 03:27.01 | JeffM | he owns all of it |
| 03:27.19 | JeffM | but wont lift a finger to do anything fo rit |
| 03:27.39 | yosef | then why doesn't he relinquish ownership? |
| 03:27.50 | yosef | at least of the debian/Ubuntu packaging part |
| 03:27.52 | JeffM | NO clue |
| 03:28.22 | JeffM | that we are thankfuly prying away from his hands |
| 03:29.59 | yosef | have you tried asking him for it? |
| 03:30.04 | JeffM | YEP |
| 03:30.11 | JeffM | muliple times |
| 03:31.24 | yosef | and he said no? |
| 03:31.29 | JeffM | yep |
| 03:31.35 | yosef | despite the fact that all he does is maintain the chat logs? |
| 03:31.47 | JeffM | he gave some line about how he wants to be involved again when has time |
| 03:32.00 | JeffM | he's said that for the past 5 years |
| 03:32.15 | yosef | never more specific than that? |
| 03:32.22 | JeffM | nope |
| 03:33.18 | JeffM | hell we coudn't make new groups for a week cus he was out of town |
| 03:33.22 | JeffM | and he controls the dns |
| 03:33.22 | yosef | *censored* *censored* *(he's a eneuch)* |
| 03:34.36 | yosef | and so we patter on, mildly into the night |
| 03:34.54 | JeffM | naw bzflag will just die a slow death as it's forgoten |
| 03:35.02 | JeffM | instead of being given an honorable retirement |
| 03:35.52 | yosef | nevermind that it offers way more fun than say "zero ballistics" |
| 03:36.06 | yosef | now, how to retain some newbs |
| 03:36.15 | JeffM | make the game not suck to learn to play |
| 03:36.27 | JeffM | make it help people and have a consistent and modern interface |
| 03:37.09 | yosef | is there any way to identify new players by how they play? |
| 03:37.23 | yosef | as in, server-side |
| 03:37.23 | JeffM | no |
| 03:37.41 | JeffM | require registration and track sign up date |
| 03:37.51 | JeffM | limt them to a tutorial server untill they verify |
| 03:39.09 | JeffM | it's just there are some expectations that new players have for how games work these days and we don't even follow bassic consistency |
| 03:39.26 | yosef | I was thinking of a plugin that gives them a slight bonus |
| 03:39.41 | JeffM | oh it's way worse then that |
| 03:39.51 | JeffM | I mean look at the FIRST thing that comes up when you start the game |
| 03:39.57 | JeffM | it has a cursor but you can't click on anything |
| 03:41.05 | JeffM | also the basic rules arn't even shown |
| 03:41.15 | JeffM | why can I shoot black tanks but not tanks my color? |
| 03:41.21 | yosef | there's a help page? |
| 03:41.35 | yosef | same color tanks must obviously be your same team? |
| 03:41.38 | JeffM | that's part of the expections these days |
| 03:41.40 | yosef | like in Warzone2100 |
| 03:41.47 | JeffM | you should not have to read a book to play a game |
| 03:41.56 | JeffM | but if I am black, I can shoot black tanks..... |
| 03:42.46 | yosef | you should at least read *some* instructions |
| 03:43.00 | JeffM | have you played a modern game? |
| 03:43.06 | JeffM | they all show you what to do in game |
| 03:43.07 | yosef | define modern |
| 03:43.12 | JeffM | in the last 3 years |
| 03:43.19 | yosef | does spring rts count? |
| 03:43.23 | JeffM | no |
| 03:43.30 | JeffM | I mean reatail game, with a real game designer |
| 03:43.39 | yosef | don't play those. |
| 03:43.44 | JeffM | exactly |
| 03:43.53 | JeffM | most of the people that stay are like that |
| 03:43.57 | JeffM | most of the people that leave have |
| 03:44.09 | JeffM | because you guys don't have preconeived notions |
| 03:44.14 | JeffM | the rest of the world does |
| 03:44.16 | yosef | you've really thought this out. |
| 03:44.28 | JeffM | for years and years |
| 03:44.41 | JeffM | the game could be so much more then it is |
| 03:44.50 | JeffM | it's still a game from 1995 |
| 03:45.02 | yosef | and all that holds it back is Tim Riker? |
| 03:45.12 | yosef | (and a few other things) |
| 03:45.13 | JeffM | not just him |
| 03:45.16 | JeffM | need people |
| 03:45.21 | JeffM | and a different way of doing things |
| 03:45.30 | JeffM | personaly I'd leave bz where it is and take the people to a new game |
| 03:45.40 | JeffM | then we don't "ruin" bz by making changes |
| 03:45.50 | JeffM | it will just be past it's time |
| 03:46.39 | JeffM | all things must end |
| 03:47.27 | yosef | but no turrets, right? |
| 03:48.11 | yosef | bzflag 2.0.16 finally ended |
| 03:48.14 | JeffM | I'm not against them, it just requires making major changes to the input system |
| 03:49.42 | yosef | catch-22 situation then. |
| 03:50.20 | yosef | you could just leave the island |
| 03:50.22 | JeffM | that's why I'd take it to a new game |
| 03:50.31 | JeffM | then there would be no expectations from bzflag |
| 03:50.33 | JeffM | and it'd be easy |
| 03:51.02 | yosef | (if only you didn't need people to help) |
| 03:51.46 | yosef | people who know C# |
| 03:51.53 | JeffM | it's just a language |
| 03:52.03 | yosef | enough interested people |
| 03:52.05 | JeffM | if you know C you can do C# in a day |
| 03:53.33 | yosef | messaging newly signed-up people won't hurt |
| 03:54.08 | JeffM | it could, cus thats kinda like spam |
| 03:54.25 | JeffM | I've writen up my ideas on a wiki for how I'd do new players |
| 03:54.32 | JeffM | and set up a project |
| 03:55.02 | JeffM | keep it funded etc... |
| 03:55.35 | yosef | too late |
| 03:55.45 | yosef | it's definitely working |
| 03:56.10 | yosef | KTL's Delirious City is seeing an upkeep in players |
| 03:56.29 | yosef | http://shmsoft.com/yosef/BZFlag_Newsletter_Issue1draft.doc.pdf |
| 03:56.31 | JeffM | oh sure it can work on a small scale, but I'd not implement it as a core technology |
| 03:57.10 | yosef | it's really to retain current players |
| 03:57.20 | JeffM | yeah that I could see |
| 03:57.23 | yosef | in fact, it's about time for another issue |
| 03:58.13 | yosef | oh shucks, the picture didn't come out right |
| 03:58.22 | yosef | ~rogue |
| 03:58.22 | ibot | i heard rogue is a crazy ASCII art dungeon game |
| 04:01.04 | JeffM | that it is |
| 04:02.46 | yosef | Jeff: in your new player design doc, wouldn't a gamma server be better (in between the first two)? |
| 04:03.17 | yosef | is a player ready to join an effective FFA after 15 minutes? |
| 04:03.33 | JeffM | the times can be changed they are just samples |
| 04:04.08 | yosef | can registered players play in alpha? |
| 04:04.13 | JeffM | yeah |
| 04:04.16 | JeffM | anyone can play on alpha |
| 04:05.32 | yosef | in which case a registered player (even one with access to gama) could potentially wreak havoc there? |
| 04:05.44 | JeffM | sure |
| 04:05.52 | JeffM | but that's why alpha has the best admins |
| 04:06.40 | JeffM | it would be silly to limit alpha to noobs as there may be players that want to play with friends they got to sign up |
| 04:08.18 | JeffM | more then likely you are going to have the people that want to cause trouble causing it on alpha under unreged names |
| 04:09.47 | yosef | does your design doc solve problems with overly rude admins (and those that kick/ban too much)? |
| 04:10.03 | JeffM | yes, not anyone can be an admin |
| 04:10.28 | JeffM | since servers are run by the project and not players then we can pick who is admin and what rules they go under |
| 04:10.45 | JeffM | and put in a process for players to bring admins who are abbusing the rules to the team that manages the admin staff |
| 04:12.12 | yosef | this better be fair |
| 04:12.25 | JeffM | the rules for admins would be very clear and posted |
| 04:12.45 | JeffM | as well as the rules for players |
| 04:16.08 | JeffM | bassicly since people keep saying they want the project to be the cops and servers we'll be the cops. but then that means that we'll run the main servers |
| 04:17.56 | JeffM | tho I'd be happer if the admin management team wasn't made of developers but trusted community memembers |
| 04:18.16 | yosef | I'm sure you can find enough community members |
| 04:18.46 | JeffM | finding applicants would not be hard, getting the ones that are even temperd would bee |
| 04:19.01 | JeffM | I'd expect there to be some testing and evaluation before new people are added to the admin staff |
| 04:22.37 | yosef | like, a week or two of testing/mentoring, then full acceptance, or not? |
| 04:23.24 | JeffM | sure something like that |
| 04:25.20 | JeffM | the specifics of it I would like the admin lead to work out as the game got closer to completion |
| 04:25.34 | JeffM | they would also work out what features we'd need in the client to help the admins work |
| 04:25.44 | JeffM | or if web pages and other apps are needed too |
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| 16:35.17 | I_Died_Once | woot, thursday the 8th Domino's is having a %50 off all online orders sale |
| 16:35.31 | I_Died_Once | sry wrong room |
| 16:40.04 | QuantumWork | I think that's relevant in all channels |
| 16:40.20 | I_Died_Once | i know, right? |
| 16:40.35 | I_Died_Once | http://www.sheknows.com/food-and-recipes/articles/848877/score-half-price-dominos-pizza |
| 16:40.44 | I_Died_Once | they have it on their facebook, too |
| 16:40.57 | I_Died_Once | i just "liked" them to confirm |
| 16:41.09 | QuantumWork | I have to make a very difficult decision now |
| 16:41.18 | I_Died_Once | well it aint til thursday |
| 16:41.20 | QuantumWork | do I order fifty pizzas despite the fact that I live alone? |
| 16:42.26 | I_Died_Once | i like pizza hut's ultimate cheese pizza |
| 16:42.38 | I_Died_Once | instead of the tomate sauce, its got alfredo |
| 16:42.46 | QuantumWork | wow |
| 16:42.57 | I_Died_Once | get the stuffed crust |
| 16:42.58 | I_Died_Once | BLAM |
| 16:43.06 | QuantumWork | Oh man |
| 16:43.12 | QuantumWork | you're going to singlehandedly make me fat |
| 16:43.16 | I_Died_Once | like eating a block of cheese |
| 16:43.28 | QuantumWork | I worked at the hut for two years |
| 16:43.33 | QuantumWork | gained at least twenty pounds |
| 16:43.35 | I_Died_Once | sorry to hear that |
| 16:43.38 | QuantumWork | which I'm only now rid of |
| 16:43.57 | I_Died_Once | well their cheese pizza is the _____ |
| 16:44.11 | QuantumWork | shiniest, yes |
| 16:45.06 | I_Died_Once | & eat the creadsticks on the drive home |
| 16:45.18 | I_Died_Once | **breadsticks |
| 16:49.05 | I_Died_Once | Abominable> Oven baked sandwhiches ftw |
| 16:50.25 | QuantumWork | oh man |
| 16:52.50 | QuantumWork | Dominos oven sandwiches are basically ideal |
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| 17:43.10 | JeffM | blast007, do you use a query builder to build up stuff with inner joins? |
| 17:50.26 | joevano | JeffM: i do it by hand |
| 17:50.41 | JeffM | well that's because you are awesome :) |
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| 22:28.13 | blast007 | JeffM: I rarely do joins ;) |
| 22:28.26 | blast007 | but when I do, I do them by hand |
| 22:28.50 | JeffM | I should have just trusted myself |
| 22:28.56 | JeffM | I did it by hand and it was right :) |
| 22:29.43 | blast007 | :) |
| 22:29.59 | blast007 | I always have to look up examples when I do them because I so rarely do it |
| 22:30.25 | blast007 | I'm a bit of a database noob |
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