IRC log for #bzflag on 20110515

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04:20.21*** topic/#bzflag is http://my.bzflag.org/w/BZFlag_2.3 || http://my.BZFlag.org || http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.0.16 is the current release, use it wisely
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07:19.03Gabe_G23|AtrixDelusional: ping
07:19.52Gabe_G23|AtrixOr any mofo admins?
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11:23.47KTLwoa my mailbox gets flooded by bzflag-commits :)
12:32.29delusionalthats amazing
12:35.57Thumper_When adding a new network message between the server and client (and thus breaking protocol) what needs to be updated to bump the protocol to the next version?  There buildDate.cxx::BZ_PROTO_VERSION, ::BZ_REV, version.h::BZ_CONFIG_FILE_VERSION, configure.ac::AC_INIT, etc.  I'd like to know what needs to change and why. Should this info go on the wiki?
12:37.55Thumper_or maybe DEVINFO (checking if it's already in there)
12:45.23jh`nice to see some development going on, been some time
12:45.36blast007Thumper_: might be listed in src/date/buildDate.cxx
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12:49.34Thumper_blast007: It looks like some info is in DEVINFO and I need to bump the protocol number and minor rev
12:49.50tsWow, I forgot how slow the 2_0 branch does build
12:50.53tsComputer is idling so much during build
12:53.56delusionalsould I be downloading trunk or release_maint?
12:55.30blast007trunk/bzflag/ is 2.3
12:56.07delusionalk
13:27.24delusionalseems good on my mac.   one non-fatal audio problem to report   http://pastebin.com/dvC2uiUJ    
13:28.15delusionaland the mountains textures are reversed, or something... not matching up
13:46.04tsNo audio problem for me
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14:02.14delusionalaudio works fine, the warning shows in the terminal
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14:14.51Thumper_delusional: does 2.0.x do that too?
14:16.45blast007that could be an SDL problem too
14:18.05delusionali do not see that, in 2.0.16
14:18.15Thumper_if you build it yourself?
14:18.32delusionalhmm gimme a min
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14:35.54delusionalthumper, you are correct, same audio problem with 2.0.16
14:36.21Thumper_ok good :)
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15:32.53BulletCatcherThumper_: A routine protocol bump during development only requires an increment of BZ_PROTO_VERSION and BZ_REV in buildDate.cxx and on the AC_INIT line in configure.ac.
15:32.56BulletCatcherThe full set of files to be modified during a release is listed in buildDate.cxx.
15:34.47BulletCatcherI still haven't figured out how to be able to change only one file in a way that works on both Windows and unix.
15:50.26BulletCatcherAlso, Thumper_, the saved LaserMania maps are very different between 2.0 and 2.3.
15:50.31BulletCatcherJust to start with, 2.0 has "-set _wallHeight 0" and 2.3 has "-set _wallHeight 16.56".
15:50.34BulletCatcherAre they using the same .bzw source file?
15:58.52BulletCatcherdelusional: At 60 and 240 degrees azimuth I see identical vertical mountain height mismatches.
15:58.57BulletCatcherIt is the same in both 2.0 and 2.3.
15:58.59BulletCatcherIs that what you see?
15:59.58delusionalyeah, i think that they are just mis-named in the data folder... or something simple to fix
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16:01.55delusionalI only see 3 mountains in my data folder,   is there not supposed to be 4?
16:03.49BulletCatcherIt seems to be 3 mountain images for 2.0 (and thus 2.3), but was 5 in 2.99.
16:04.13BulletCatcherIt should be easy enough to use the 2.99 images if we want.
16:04.15delusionalprobbly need  a whole new set then
16:04.34delusionalif you dont change to 2.99way
16:05.40BulletCatcherThe code automatically adjusts to the number of images available, so it is just a matter of putting properly named images in the right place.
16:05.53delusionalthought so
16:12.06delusionalhmm, that explains why at one point in the past I had a mix of 2.0.x mountains and 2.99 mountains
16:14.21BulletCatcherI like the appearance of the 2.0 mountains better than the 2.99 ones, anyway.
16:18.36mdskprindeed, when the mountains in 2.99.x are placed together they make this really creepy animal on the side of the mountain : /
16:19.09PlasticTankI like the 2.99x mountains more
16:22.34BulletCatcherhums "the bear went over the mountain"
16:25.48mdskprBulletCatcher: http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=2257
16:27.08PlasticTankDon't see it
16:27.35mdskprdead center
16:28.54PlasticTankI like the thick outline on the radar in 2.99x
16:32.44Thumper_BulletCatcher: thx - that's the conclusion I came to re: protocol bumps.  I'm heading out for the rest of the day - will check in again tonight
16:35.15Thumper_as far as I know the LaserMania .bzw files are identical for 2.0 and 2.3 for the servers I host -- I just pulled the -public line out of it - will check later
16:41.55BulletCatchermdskpr: I see a happy face on the Rorschach critter.
16:42.51mdskprhehe
16:48.27mdskprwhat is the evaluation on the risk of adding ricochet by a per object basis?
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16:49.34delusionalmdskpr:  I suggest you ask that question again.
16:49.57mdskprwhat is the evaluation on the risk of adding ricochet by a per object basis?
16:50.49JeffMhow invasive is the code?
16:51.36mdskpr56 paths, but only a couple additions in each, r18912
16:52.17JeffMit's trepans code so it's probably good
16:52.25JeffMI dunno I'd see what blast007 and BulletCatcher say
16:52.28blast007JeffM: any idea why connecting to 'localhost' would give a "Server not found", but 127.0.0.1 works?  is that a Windows 7 thing?
16:52.47JeffMI have never heard of that
16:52.59JeffMmy guess would be a problem in ares
16:53.12blast007it works for actual domain names
16:53.16blast007at least with 2.0.17
16:53.32blast007there was further issues I was having with trunk - I was getting the same 'Server not found' for any server
16:53.33JeffM2.3 is using the ares from 2.99
16:53.47blast007ok
16:53.53blast007I'll check into that
16:53.56JeffMk
16:54.21JeffMblast007, if someone has time should they backport stats push?
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16:55.17blast007JeffM: probably
16:55.28JeffMI'll get it on the list
16:55.32blast007JeffM: also, as for moving services, that will be more disruptive than I originally thought
16:55.45blast007in 2.0.x, bzfs caches the IP of the list server indefinately
16:55.46JeffMok, how bad?
16:55.50JeffMfun
16:55.55JeffMso they will have to restart
16:55.56blast007so every server would have to be restarted to get the new IP
16:56.08JeffMsad but acceptable
16:56.09blast007trunk fixes that, so I think we should backport that change
16:56.20JeffMfo sure
16:56.41blast007already narrowed down the revisions, and it's a trivial change
16:56.47JeffMyeah it should be
16:57.02JeffMthat's also why I wanted it to try multiple hosts
16:57.10JeffMgive us more flex in moving stuff
16:57.38JeffMin this case would could make sure the secondary DNS is moved over, then just turn off the primary and all servers would pop over, regardless of DNS cache times
16:59.17KTLhttp://pastebin.com/NMDmLLWY   <- trunk, with debug enabled, warnings
16:59.47JeffMheh you should see the warnings on windows
16:59.49blast007KTL: install the SDL development packages
16:59.55blast007you're using the native linux stuff
17:00.06JeffMyou people love you some 63 bit to 32 bit int conversions :)
17:00.16JeffM64 bit even
17:00.30blast007(unless someone wants to fix/clean/test the non-SDL, non-Win platform stuff)
17:00.39JeffMno
17:00.52JeffMthat can happen in 2.4.2 :)
17:00.57blast007:)
17:01.11JeffMall we ahve to do is get our main 3 platforms working
17:01.35blast007I'm loving the "Delete unversioned files" feature of TortoiseSVN
17:01.49blast007easy to clean my checkout :)
17:04.28mrappleJeffM: have you heard im working on a possible new bzflag.org?
17:04.51JeffMmrapple,  you mean website or server?
17:04.57mrapplewebsite
17:05.09JeffMno, and that isn't related to the release
17:05.28mrapplein some ways
17:05.38JeffMnot in any blocking way
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17:05.46JeffMsure it would be nice to have a new site when we release
17:05.48mrappleim figuring putting out a new website before/around the release might do some good
17:05.52JeffMbut I won't stop that releas for a website
17:05.58mrapplebut i dont want to hold back the release
17:06.03JeffMexactly
17:06.09JeffMit's not tied to the release at ALL
17:06.23mrappleuhm
17:06.25JeffMyou could have been working on a website anytime in the past 5 years ;)
17:06.38JeffMbut if you want to propose something, go for it
17:06.55JeffMjust try not to take up too much of our time as we get the code done and get the webhosts moved
17:06.59mrappleblast said if im not communicating with you guys while i make it will just get rejected
17:07.08JeffMprobably
17:07.16KTLcool not a single warning or error left on debian 64 bit
17:07.16JeffMbut also if you take up all our time we'll reject it too
17:07.22JeffMit's not a great time to do it
17:07.28JeffMbut what did you have in mind?
17:07.29blast007I also said that now probably isn't the time for a new site
17:07.37mrappleJeffM: im working on the layout now http://projects.tonybruess.com/bzflag/
17:07.48JeffMit's big
17:07.51JeffMbut not too bad
17:08.06JeffMwhy does it have download twice?
17:08.09mrapplethe laser image is just a place holder, i want something else there eventually
17:08.36mrappleim not saying those have to be the tabs/things im just working on the layout with possible ideas in place
17:08.51JeffMit's a bit bland for my tastes
17:08.57JeffMI like a bit more meat on my homepages
17:09.03JeffMnot so much of a "portal"
17:09.13mrapplethe main page is like a splash
17:09.19JeffMyeah I don't like that
17:09.22mrappleit will have the "free 3d multiplayer tank game" and common links
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17:09.37JeffMit's also WAY too big, It dosn't fit on my 24 inch display
17:09.49BulletCatcherGet a bigger one. :-)
17:09.58mrapplethe footer is huge
17:10.01JeffMgimme 2500$
17:10.06mrapplethe image is taller then it will be
17:10.17JeffMthe only thing that is apropriately sized is the buttonbar at the top
17:10.41JeffMalso bzflag's graphics arn't that impressive so I don't think they should be the focus of the splash
17:10.50JeffMthe fact that it's free to play should be
17:10.56smooothfooter is too large, agreed.  I would reduce the main image by about 27%.
17:11.08JeffMI can do some research later and show you sites that I've liked for other games
17:11.12mrapplethe footer wont be like that, i just added it this morning and was experimenting with possible ideas down there
17:11.26JeffMthe focus for the main page IMHO should be "what's happening now" in the game
17:11.32JeffMto show that you joining a community
17:11.40BulletCatcherI prefer web sites that adjust to any screen width without needing a horizontal scroll bar.
17:11.43JeffMnot just downloading a thing that makes kinda old looking 3d pictures :)
17:12.00JeffMyeah dynamic width is good when you can swing it
17:12.09mrappleits only 940px wide
17:12.10smooothIt looks very clean though,  I like it.  I'd tighten up the size of the "blocks" a little bit.
17:12.11JeffMthe art style isn't bad
17:12.13blast007just tends to be more complicated to get right
17:12.33blast007older browsers weren't really designed with fluid width layouts in mind
17:12.37BulletCatcherTo me it is worth the effort.
17:12.38JeffMyeah the overall design and look is ok
17:12.46JeffMI just think it's focusing on the wrong things
17:13.03mrapplethis is a good article on browser window sizes http://foundationsix.com/index.php/weblog/P4
17:13.06JeffMlike most web designers you've gone for look before knowing function :)
17:13.30JeffMmrapple, you may want to start by getting a list of requirements for what the website should do
17:13.34JeffMand what should be on the main page
17:13.41JeffMthen you'll know what info you have to make a design for
17:14.03mrappleive been sort of deciding that in my head, but a full list would be nice
17:14.11JeffMmake a wiki page
17:14.16JeffMthen you can get input for others
17:14.17mrappleok
17:14.28JeffMI'd like to see current player/server counts
17:14.31JeffMactive games
17:14.40JeffMrecent forum posts etc..
17:14.40mrappleah good idea
17:14.44BulletCatcherblast007: Fixing bzfs IP address caching falls under the "Facilitate moving global services" idea on the 2.3 wiki page.  It sounds like we should make that happen in 2.3, then move global after enough servers have upgraded.
17:14.48JeffMshow the people that it is active
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17:15.11JeffMalso we should have the abiity to show at least one news post on the main page
17:15.31JeffMI am sad that we lost that in the last redesign
17:16.21JeffMyou have to assume that the ONLY button someone will click on on the main page is the download button
17:16.37JeffMso if there is anythign we want them to read they should not have to click to read it
17:17.06JeffMwe should also do a better job of picking the version to have them download from the browser ( SF may have tools to do that )
17:17.20blast007BulletCatcher: k
17:17.44JeffMif you wanted to get SUPER fancy, we would hav them register on the forums while the download is happening :)
17:18.11blast007or SUPER SUPER fancy, not have registration handled via a forum ;)
17:19.12JeffMindeed
17:19.44BulletCatchermdskpr: I don't mind adding new mapmaking features to 2.3 as long as changes to 2.0 maps are not required.
17:20.00BulletCatcherWe'll save that for the future.
17:20.16CIA-116BZFlag: 03Mrapple 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7644 10/w/New_Website: New page: ==Overview== With the release of BZFlag 2.4 imminent and the levels of development that are spiking up, it seems about time a new website was put into place. This article will cover some o...
17:20.16mdskprok there are no changes necessary with the 2.0 maps, what do you think blast007?
17:20.32JeffMmrapple, not a great name for your page
17:20.42JeffMI'd call it, "proposed main website redesign"
17:20.46mrappleok
17:20.48JeffMcus we do have more then one "website"
17:20.58blast007I might even have a better spot for it
17:20.59blast007let me check
17:21.05JeffMand again, don't tie it to 2.4
17:21.19CIA-116BZFlag: 03Mrapple 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/move: [[New Website]] moved to [[Proposed Website Redesign]]: Better name
17:21.36JeffMthe fact that we could release it with 2.4 is just a happy coincidence
17:21.50JeffMbut if you keep saying 2.4 on it peopl will think it's related
17:22.01JeffMif you get done before 2.4 we sill push that site
17:22.02blast007mrapple: bleh, guess you didn't wait :P
17:22.19mrapplehuh?
17:22.21JeffMtoo many coco puffs this AM I gues
17:22.38blast007put it under Web_Services/Home_Page, and include the same template at the top that Web_Services/Player_Portal has
17:23.10mrapplesorry i have to go, be back late
17:23.14mrapplelater*
17:24.39BulletCatchermrapple: That blog posting about screen widths presumes that people want to run their browsers in full-screen mode.
17:24.43BulletCatcherThere are *no* web sites important enough to deserve that much of my screen.
17:24.45BulletCatcherMy standard browser window is 800x800 on my 1920x1080 display.
17:25.19JeffMblast007, what do you think. Keep posted package just 32 and use installer from 2.99, have 2 installers, one for each bitness, or have the installer pick the right32 or 64 (or both) at install time?
17:25.47JeffMyeah I have a big display so I don't have to make windows full screen to see them
17:25.52JeffMstop eating my desktop ;)
17:27.49CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21454 10/trunk/bzflag/package/win32/nsis/ (9 files): yank old installer so it can be replaced with new installer ( with history)
17:28.42blast007JeffM: depends on what's easier
17:28.56JeffM32 bit only installer is simplest
17:29.07JeffM2 isntallers is next hardest
17:29.12JeffMcombo installer is hardest
17:29.29JeffMI'll start with just 32bit only
17:29.40JeffMthen we can add 64 if need be after release
17:29.48JeffMthat's what the 4th number if for :)
17:30.12blast007does a 64-bit build buy us much?
17:30.25JeffMnot sure
17:30.33JeffMit would require testing
17:30.51JeffMI only enabled the builds cus I had redone the build systm in a way that made them automatic
17:31.13JeffMused VC macros for all the folders so it's just another target
17:31.47CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21455 10/trunk/bzflag/package/win32/nsis/ (9 files): add installer from 2.99
17:31.48JeffMwe don't do anything that NEEDs 64 bit for sure
17:32.01JeffMunless you have a 8 gig map somewhere ;)
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18:01.22KTLwhat is the culling tree supposed to do? looking at it in the clay hills map  it looks not fine-grained at all ... or is it to do exactly that: contain the boundaries of the world?
18:08.42blast007JeffM: are you able to connect to any servers?
18:09.14KTLcan, but i got to try several times
18:09.36blast007I updated c-ares to the latest version here and I'm still getting "Server not found", even when I put in 127.0.0.1
18:09.43blast007KTL: on Windows?
18:09.48KTLlnx
18:09.53blast007linux worked fine for me
18:10.14blast007I haven't been able to join any server with trunk on Windows, even a local server via 127.0.0.1
18:10.48blast007also still having the Visual C++ linker crash consistently
18:11.13blast007gonna try another 2.0.x build and see if that one causes the linker crash
18:11.30blast007and if not, I'll just step through revisions until I find issues
18:18.04JeffMblast007, haven't tried
18:18.20JeffMtho note that trunk is using /src/other/ares for windows
18:18.54blast007yeah, that's the one I updated
18:19.00JeffMk
18:19.02blast007think it was 1.7.1 -> 1.7.4
18:19.24blast007didn't seem to help though
18:19.32JeffMI did not check if there were code changes that were made in 2.99 that went along with the move from src/cares to src/other/ares
18:19.42JeffMI just got it to build
18:19.51blast007hmm, getting the linker crash on 2.0.x too..
18:20.05JeffMyou have SP1 for vc9?
18:20.28blast007not sure
18:20.34blast007would it show that in the About window?
18:21.04blast007it shows that it's the .NET 3.5 SP1 framework, but I'm not sure if that implies anything about the VS SP level
18:21.31blast007product details just says "Microsoft Visual C++ 2008"
18:21.32CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21456 10/trunk/bzflag/MSVC/build/ (bzflag.sln bzflag.vcproj bzfs.vcproj geometry.vcproj): remove installer and manfile stuff from bzflag solution, will be put into fullbuild
18:22.14JeffMit should say "Version 9.0.something.1 SP" in the help->about
18:22.14JeffMfor VC
18:22.21JeffMon the left of the dialog
18:22.43blast007ah, I'm still on RTM
18:22.52JeffMoh dude....
18:22.57blast007guess microsoft update doesn't pull the SPs
18:23.16JeffMno it dosn't
18:23.33JeffMcus it changes runtimes, they don't want to automagicaly make your compiler require an installer change
18:23.42JeffMit has to be a choice you make
18:23.57blast007k, I'll pull that down and see what changes
18:24.19JeffMgoes to work on updating the plugin build system
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18:33.24KTLi dont like the collision detection tree.
18:33.48KTLtries to figure out if it can be replaced
18:34.22JeffMI'd rather not change collisions for this release
18:34.49KTLok, too tricky
18:34.49JeffMsounds super risky
18:35.00JeffMfight the feature creep
18:35.12KTLmyes, but i invested a year in a highly optimised bsptree once
18:35.31JeffMthat's great..... for 2.6 ;)
18:35.42KTLstill looks into it
18:36.03JeffMlook at the changes that were made in 2.99 as well
18:36.03KTLwhen i look at the generated boxes ... brr they dont fit the objects at all
18:36.07JeffMI know trepan did a lot of stuff
18:36.19KTLhu? isnt that in trunk at the moment?
18:36.24JeffMoh god no
18:36.28JeffMturnk is 2.3
18:36.32JeffM2.99 moved to a tag
18:36.46JeffMv2.99archive
18:36.58KTLeuhm i had the idea that you copied 2.99 to 2.3
18:37.03JeffMoh no
18:37.12JeffM2.3 is based off 2.0.x
18:37.16JeffMthat's the entire POINT of it
18:37.19KTLaha
18:37.30JeffMtake what we want out of 3, not take what we don't like out of 3
18:37.50JeffMwe are backporting ow
18:37.51JeffMnow
18:38.50KTLthis might be fun
18:53.05CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21457 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/SAMPLE_PLUGIN/ (SAMPLE_PLUGIN.sln SAMPLE_PLUGIN.vcproj):
18:53.05CIA-116bzflag: update sample project to work from full build and copy plug-in to bin dir.
18:53.05CIA-116bzflag: add BZAPI_INC_DIR and BZAPI_LIB_DIR as environment variables for search paths that third party devs can use if they don't want to have full BZFS sources.
19:05.46CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21458 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/SAMPLE_PLUGIN/SAMPLE_PLUGIN.vcproj: fix path error
19:07.32joevanomrapple: any thought as to what the new website is? Straight HTML, Drupal, WP, roll your own CMS?
19:08.44CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21459 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/plugin_utils/ (Makefile.am VC9/ plugin_utils.sln plugin_utils.vcproj):
19:08.44CIA-116bzflag: update to work with new build system
19:08.45CIA-116bzflag: remove vc9 dir
19:11.23CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21460 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/ (3 files in 2 dirs): sample is dependent on plugin_utils
19:11.38JeffMjoevano, I would think drupal would have integration issues with bzbb
19:12.17joevanoJeffM: probably.. but I just want to have that conversation if he is thinking about it
19:12.36JeffMeventualy I think we want to go that way
19:12.54JeffMbut it should not take time away from the release or moving services
19:16.36mrapplejoevano: plast said minimal cms needed, only motd editor probably
19:16.40mrappleblast
19:17.03CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21461 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/airspawn/ (airspawn.sln airspawn.vcproj): update to work with new build system
19:17.03blast007no, I said that's what it currently has
19:17.13JeffMwe should have a new system of some kind
19:17.25JeffMthe wiki ain't great for that
19:17.33mrapplei thought you said only a motd editor would be necessary, but guess not
19:17.44blast007to be honest, I think drupal would be overkill
19:17.49JeffMyeah it would be
19:17.53blast007just one more system to keep updated
19:17.56JeffMmrapple, nessisary yes, as in min. requirements
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19:25.19CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21462 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/chathistory/ (chathistory.sln chathistory.vcproj): update to work with new build system
19:27.53mrappleim thinking if i bring like 300px off the BZFlag is image I can put a whats happening box with tabs for players, league updates, and forum stuff
19:27.56mrapplehttp://projects.tonybruess.com/bzflag/
19:28.08mrappleand remember that bzflag is image behind there is just a placeholder
19:28.49JeffMI'd like to hear you talk about the features of the site rather then pixels
19:29.03JeffMthen I'll know you are a web developer rather then just a web designer
19:30.19JeffMI'd like you to take a look at other game homepages to see what info they show
19:30.24JeffMdon't focus on there layouts
19:30.26JeffMbut what info they show
19:30.40JeffMlook at runescapes page, they show a lot of info about the players and communit
19:30.48JeffMand the focus of the page is how to GET the game
19:30.59JeffMbig "play now" button etc..
19:31.10JeffMI want to see you do more then draw pretty pictures ;)
19:31.56CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21463 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/flagStay/ (flagStay.sln flagStay.vcproj): update to work with new build system
19:32.45AAA_awrightblast007: How is Drupal overkill? It ships with almost nothing
19:32.53AAA_awrightUnless that's exactly what you mean
19:33.21JeffMit has a user system... we already have a user system...
19:33.23AAA_awrightPersonally I would go with Mediawiki
19:33.52AAA_awrightJeffM: It has an authentication system, it has to. It can be configured to use phpBB's system
19:34.00blast007mediawiki is a memory hog
19:34.10blast007I'd rather have something light and fast for our main site
19:34.28JeffMwe won't do much content management on the main site
19:34.45JeffMcan drupal manage ldap users?
19:34.48blast007a simple news systems along with the MOTD editor should be sufficient
19:34.51JeffMor just auth against them?
19:35.01AAA_awrightI haven't had any problems with Mediawiki, and in any event it's designed for caching, unlike Drupal, I'm working on a Drupal deployment right now and it's modified to not use cookies
19:37.37AAA_awrightJeffM: Drupal can yes
19:37.55JeffMthat would be the main reason to go to it so we could get a user manager for ldap later
19:38.05JeffMthe only reason I can think of
19:38.11JeffMbut that's not a project for right now
19:38.18AAA_awrightIf the main site isn't going to do much other than publish news why can't the Wiki pick those tasks up?
19:38.46JeffMI don't think the wiki can have the layout we want
19:38.53JeffMnot with out a lot of work
19:38.55blast007because using 60MB of RAM to show a news article and a download button is a waste
19:39.33JeffMwe also have NO need to let anyone edit the main site, or change it's layouts dyanmicly
19:39.38AAA_awrightblast007: As much a waste as deploying an entirely seperate system which has to be maintained?
19:40.01AAA_awrightYeah, Mediawiki can do exactly that
19:40.07blast007one small enough that it doesn't need as much maintenance
19:40.18JeffMwe maintain the main site once every few years
19:40.40AAA_awrightMy point is there's an existing system that could be used that would introduce no additional maintnence
19:40.41CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21464 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/hiddenAdmin/ (hiddenAdmin.sln hiddenAdmin.vcproj): update to work with new build system
19:40.58JeffMAAA_awright, but it requires lots of work to get it setup
19:41.03blast007AAA_awright: yes it does
19:41.07blast007we have to update it
19:41.10JeffMI don't even think we need a new website now
19:41.20blast007we have to keep our template up to date
19:41.24AAA_awrightblast007: I thought we're already updating the Wiki?
19:41.26JeffMit's not on the list, it was just something mrapple said
19:41.31blast007AAA_awright: heck no
19:41.42blast007the version we have is ooooold
19:42.14blast007it's the Awesome Asbestos version
19:42.15AAA_awrightand even so, then don't update it, that's even less work for you
19:42.58JeffMthe main site gets hit a lot more then the wiki, that's more stress for the server
19:43.04blast007AAA_awright: missing the point as usual
19:44.20AAA_awrightThere's caching for that stuff
19:44.36blast007yay, no crashing with SP1 ;D  funny how updates fix things!
19:44.51AAA_awrightblast007: What is the point, then? "As usual"?
19:44.55JeffMI don't think any website discussion should happen untill requirements research has been done
19:45.08JeffMit's just a waste of time to sugest systems when we don't even know what we need.
19:45.23AAA_awrightI've done a crapload of research on this stuff
19:45.25bradwho's in charge now? just wondering
19:45.42JeffMwhere is it documented? where is the list of features that we can review
19:45.45AAA_awrightI _wrote_ an entire list server, user management system, themes for Mediawiki and phpBB and authentication systems for each of them
19:45.49JeffMbrad depends on what you are talking about
19:46.01JeffMtim owns bzflag, blast and myself are the release managers
19:46.10JeffMAAA_awright, that's code, not a spec/requirements doc
19:46.13bradoh, neat
19:46.13blast007I'm in charge of cake. Also, the cake is a lie.
19:46.21JeffMI'm in charge of lies
19:46.25brad:)
19:46.30JeffMwould you like some cake?
19:46.34blast007You monster.
19:46.36bradtimmy going to be more active now then?
19:46.38AAA_awrightJeffM: That's actual testing done for load and performance, that's research for yo
19:46.53JeffMAAA_awright, of sorts, not all the research we need
19:47.00JeffMthat's implementation research
19:47.10JeffMnot product design research
19:47.30JeffMI want to see the answers to the question of "What shoudl the main website DO?"
19:47.50JeffMI want to see that on a wiki page like the release plan
19:47.56JeffMso we can all make sure it's right
19:48.06JeffMTHEN we can see what system fit those needs the best
19:48.31JeffMI am VERY happy with how the release plan wiki page has worked out
19:48.45JeffMthere is clear consensus and great colaboration on it
19:48.51JeffMmoreso then I've seen in a while
19:49.10Pimpithats what was missing in all those years
19:49.29JeffMpimpi exactly, some level of management / planing
19:49.33Pimpieverybody did something, there  was never really a plan
19:49.40JeffMit's easy now to see where you can jump in :)
19:49.49JeffMand we all know what the others are doing
19:49.54JeffMand what should and should not be done
19:50.07JeffMthis is how it's suposed to be
19:50.29JeffMand I think a similar method can work for the website and service upgrades
19:50.33JeffMbut it has to happen like that
19:50.44JeffMthen everyone will be on the same page and we will know what our goals are
19:51.09AAA_awrightIt's always looked like we know what _features_ we need
19:51.26AAA_awrightAt least to me
19:51.28JeffMsure it's looked like that
19:51.41JeffMbut everyone has a slithgly different idea
19:51.49JeffMand that's where we have falterd
19:52.14JeffMpeople go off on there own, do research and come back and wonder why nobody understands it like they do
19:52.18AAA_awrightA different idea on how to fill the feature, I would call that implementation detail
19:52.34JeffMsomewhat yes
19:52.56JeffMbut if it all has to work together then there has to be an implemenation plan
19:53.18Pimpii used to like the "freedom" the bzflag project provided to developers, but if you want to release you need to define whqat you want to do next, when you want it and you need to know who cares things get done
19:53.27JeffMit shoudl go requirements -> design -> implemenation plan -> any proof of concept research needed -> implementation
19:54.24JeffMsometimes design and implementation plan are the same
19:54.31JeffMlike "use drupal, or media wiki"
19:54.37JeffMsometimes not
19:55.17JeffMfor websites there is also a UI design phase usualy after research or during implemntation
19:55.37JeffMso far all I've seen mr apple do is UI design
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20:02.54CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21465 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/HoldTheFlag/HoldTheFlag.cpp: make build on windows
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20:03.11CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21466 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/HoldTheFlag/ (HoldTheFlag.sln HoldTheFlag.vcproj): update to work with new build system
20:07.22CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21467 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/keepaway/ (keepaway.sln keepaway.vcproj): update to work with new build system
20:07.42JeffMonly 19 more :/ ....
20:08.35CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21468 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/ (Makefile.am vc9/): full build will take the place of the "plug-ins project"
20:09.00Pimpilet me add something else that was missing. I would have needed a mentor badly when i contributed to bz. As long as i was just implementing things were fine. At the point where my ideas required design, when there was no ready to extend structure, i failed. If there will be development after 2.4 (assuming 2.4 will happen) i suggest that new conributers have a mentor. One person you can refer to if help is needed. Of course i could have asked for help her
20:09.01Pimpie, dunno why i didn't, but i had a mentor i surely would have.
20:09.36JeffMmakes sense
20:09.50JeffMthat's part of what the idea of having release managers was about
20:10.02JeffMso there is a "go to person"
20:10.10Pimpiyep
20:10.57mrappleJeffM: what else do you think needs to go on the homepage http://projects.tonybruess.com/bzflag/
20:11.10blast007more animated GIFs
20:11.13JeffMmrapple, read the backlog seriously
20:11.22mrapplei have been
20:11.28blast007then read it again
20:11.37JeffMok, then did you see the part where I talked about a requirements doc
20:11.45JeffMand how you were just doing UI design
20:11.53JeffMand that can't happen untill we have a plan for the website?
20:12.03JeffMcus this is just a waste of time
20:12.07JeffMyours and ours
20:12.29JeffMI know you want to help, but you are doing a part out of order
20:12.49JeffMwe don't want to "just have someone bust out a site"
20:12.52JeffMthat won't help us
20:14.13mrappleWell, for the "What does the website need to do?" question, do I just need to wait for this to be finalized? http://my.bzflag.org/w/Proposed_Website_Redesign
20:14.52JeffMthat is such a weak doc that it dosn't even say anything
20:15.00JeffMbut yes
20:15.08mrapplewhat are you looking for there
20:15.26blast007in any case, I really think the website can wait until after we get the release pushed out
20:15.28JeffMI want something more like what we have for the 2.3 release
20:15.37JeffMyeah we arn't going to have time to spec out a website now
20:15.44blast007(even the planning of the website can wait)
20:15.44JeffMallready this is taking too much time
20:16.03JeffMwe need to get a list of ideas for the website
20:16.06JeffMpair those down
20:16.15JeffMthen come up with a list of requirements
20:16.19mrappleok
20:16.32JeffMat that point we can see what system (if any) can meet those
20:16.44JeffMthen finaly someone can sit down and figure out what button goes where
20:17.06JeffMso it's kinda pointless for you to make buttons now when you don't even know if we need buttons
20:18.32JeffMI mean when you build any kind of web service from the start, do you just start with your layout? or do you work on how the backend will work first?
20:18.42JeffMthen hook up UI elements for what you know you need
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20:22.08CIA-116BZFlag: 03Mrapple 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7647 10/w/Proposed_Website_Redesign:
20:23.27mrappleJeffM: when you have the time, please tell me if im on track with that document
20:23.38JeffMok... you don't get it
20:23.46JeffMno website for 2.4
20:23.51JeffMno talk here of it
20:24.02mrappleim not saying its for 2.4
20:24.13mrapplewhy is it not ok if i talk about something related to bzflag development?
20:24.15CIA-116BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7648 10/w/Proposed_Website_Redesign:
20:24.34JeffMbecause are asking people involved IN development to take time off
20:24.55mrapple"when you have the time"
20:25.05JeffMjust saying that makes me have to read IRC :)
20:25.10JeffMI won't have time for 31 days
20:25.19JeffMand at that point I'll have forgoten
20:25.29mrappleill set my client to ping you 31 days from now
20:25.50CIA-116BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7649 10/w/BZFlag_2.3: /* Exclusions */ no websites
20:26.13JeffMfrom what I read just then I think the best thing to start with is a listing of the problems that the current site has
20:26.23JeffMand what features that people think it lacks
20:26.43mrappleits outdated and ugly, i think that sums it up
20:26.51blast007JeffM: I'm working on finding where the Windows "server not found" issue came in
20:27.00JeffMif that's all you can say then you are not the right person to do the website project
20:27.06blast007it's not outdated if there's little content on it
20:27.16mrapplethe store link leads to a 500 page
20:27.19JeffMmrapple, you are a web designer, an artist and that's cool
20:27.19blast007I mean, how can a button that says "download" get outdated?
20:27.22blast007okay, so FIX THAT
20:27.27JeffMbut we need a backend guy
20:27.31mrapplethe screenshots are from 1.*
20:27.35blast007we don't need a new site just cuz there's a dead link
20:27.39JeffMsomeone who understand software development
20:28.05JeffMyeah you are describing bugs in the current software not a conceptual failure or lack of a feature
20:28.10JeffMyou want a pretty picture
20:28.19JeffMwe want functionality that we don't have
20:28.37JeffMlike player counts, registration links, etc...
20:28.44JeffMthings that can be used
20:28.58JeffMnot just a massive graphic with some Steve Jobs shine on it
20:29.11JeffMand that's the stuff we don't have time to explain to you
20:29.44mrapplegreat, ill just not do the website now then and save it for 31 days from now
20:29.55JeffMmore then 31 days
20:30.17JeffMthere is probably a month of design work before pretty pictures can be made
20:30.45blast007mrapple: July is a nice month. Let's start it then.  :P
20:31.10JeffMI mean a "download button" is not a design requirement, that's the implemntation of  a "software downloads" feature
20:31.13mrappleyeah and may is my birthday, and since today is the 15th, lets add 15 days to my birthday, divide by three, then start. sound good?
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20:31.26JeffMmrapple, we are not setting times on this now
20:31.33JeffMyou are getting a bit anoying
20:31.40mrappledito, ill be going now
20:31.44JeffMI would recoment you read up on proejct design
20:31.50JeffMit will do you good :)
20:31.55JeffMyou don't have to go
20:32.08JeffMjust dont' try to nail us down to a date
20:32.24JeffMwe may have to spend july fixing bugs and releasing 2.4.2 :)
20:33.02JeffMI will try to remember to write a website requirements doc one day
20:33.54JeffMthen we'll get everyone to input and comment on it
20:35.04CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21469 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/killall/ (killall.sln killall.vcproj): update to work with new build system
20:35.15JeffMgotta find food, bbiab
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21:07.18CIA-116bzflag: 03bullet_catcher * r21470 10/trunk/bzflag/configure.ac: Remove from AC_CONFIG_FILES the vc9 makefiles that are already gone.
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21:23.54mdskpr_did anyone mess with shadowing?
21:27.13delusionalim sure trep did some fixes to stencil shadow...  probably some other things
21:27.54mdskpr_cuz, my stipple shadows are just black splotches on the grnd
21:30.30delusionalstencil was flickering
21:32.50mdskpr_stencil has always crashed bzflag for me....so i never use it
21:46.22blast007mdskpr_: compare with 2.0.x I guess - I'm not aware that we changed anything with shadows so far
21:53.43meem1029I just noticed that there are no visible changes in image quality between low/medium and high/experimental.  I know there are changes being made to image quality settings, but I wanted to make sure this is known.
21:54.00meem1029(latest source build from svn on Ubuntu 10.10)
22:01.31JeffMI'm ermoving stipple at some point
22:01.45JeffMmeem_afk, that's why we are making the changes ;)
22:01.50JeffMthey are somewhat pointless now
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22:13.50CIA-116BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7650 10/w/Web_Services/Home_Page: ehhh... I got bored while eating a burger and had a tablet on me....
22:15.43CIA-116BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7651 10/w/Web_Services/Home_Page: don't do anything until we are sure what to do.
22:16.24JeffMback to plugins
22:18.48CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21471 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/koth/ (koth.sln koth.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:21.24CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21472 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/logDetail/ (logDetail.sln logDetail.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:24.38CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21473 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/nagware/ (nagware.sln nagware.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:26.56CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21474 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/Phoenix/ (Phoenix.sln Phoenix.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:32.10CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21475 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/playHistoryTracker/ (playHistoryTracker.sln playHistoryTracker.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:37.06CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21476 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/pushstats/ (pushstats.sln pushstats.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:38.59CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21477 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/rabbitTimer/ (rabbitTimer.sln rabbitTimer.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:40.49CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21478 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/rabidRabbit/ (rabidRabbit.sln rabidRabbit.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:40.58CIA-116BZFlag: 03Blast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/delete: deleted "[[Proposed Website Redesign]]": content was obsolete
22:42.46CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21479 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/recordmatch/ (recordmatch.sln recordmatch.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:45.20CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21480 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/regFlag/ (regFlag.sln regFlag.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:47.10CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21481 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/RogueGenocide/ (RogueGenocide.sln RogueGenocide.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:50.20CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21482 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/serverControl/serverControl.cpp: unistd dosnt' exist on non unix systems. good thing it wasn't used
22:50.37CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21483 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/serverControl/ (serverControl.sln serverControl.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:52.24mdskpr_we are on the top project list on cia.vc! http://cia.vc/
22:52.49JeffMonly cus I keep checking in small things
22:52.54JeffMand it probably just reset
22:52.57JeffMwhat time is it UTC?
22:53.14BulletCatcher22:53
22:53.19CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21484 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/shockwaveDeath/ (shockwaveDeath.sln shockwaveDeath.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:55.01CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21485 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/teamflagreset/ (teamflagreset.sln teamflagreset.vcproj): update to work with new build system
22:56.48CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21486 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/timedctf/ (timedctf.sln timedctf.vcproj): update to work with new build system
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22:58.18blast007JeffM: okay, think I've narrowed down the source of the "Server not found" issue to r21410  "properly build and link curl"
22:58.41JeffMok
22:58.55JeffMwhat changed in that rev?
22:59.56blast007switching it to use the curl in src/other
23:00.11JeffMwe should be using that now
23:00.26JeffMcus 2.0.x didn't have a src/other
23:00.28blast007right, it worked before we switched to that
23:00.34JeffMahhh
23:00.40JeffMso 2.99 was busted too?
23:00.47blast007no, that worked
23:00.55blast007to the best of my knowledge
23:01.16blast007I'll try a build from the 2.99.x archive and verify that
23:01.18JeffMI build 2.0.16 using the curl from 2.99
23:02.05JeffMeven the projects in 2.3 came from 2.99
23:02.43CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21487 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/TimeLimit/ (TimeLimit.sln TimeLimit.vcproj): update to work with new build system
23:03.09blast007I'll keep poking at it
23:03.26JeffMk
23:05.29CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21488 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/wwzones/ (wwzones.sln wwzones.vcproj): update to work with new build system
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23:44.44CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21489 10/trunk/bzflag/ (17 files in 14 dirs): update build system with full build that builds all docs and plugins
23:50.38CIA-116bzflag: 03JeffM2501 * r21490 10/trunk/bzflag/package/win32/nsis/BZFlag.nsi:
23:50.38CIA-116bzflag: update the installer to read from the new bin dirs.
23:50.38CIA-116bzflag: add variables for platform and bitness to let the installer work for both 32 and 64 bit installers
23:51.10JeffMblast007, the only thing you have to do now to make an isntaller is throw the runtimes in the nsis dir and then let it fly :)
23:51.21blast007:)
23:51.38JeffMif you want to build 64 bit there are 3 commented out variables in the header of the file
23:52.10JeffMoh and you can run with a double click from the bin dir now
23:52.31JeffMand default build includes curses
23:52.39JeffMso I'm calling my first task done :)
23:55.14blast007and I've confirmed that 2.99.x connected fine
23:55.20JeffMwierd
23:55.22blast007so it's something screwy with 2.3
23:55.28JeffMyou have a server running now?
23:55.37blast007there's quite a few on the list right now
23:55.40blast007none mine though
23:55.56blast007I don't think it even gets to the point of connecting to them
23:56.12blast007the error comes back instantly
23:57.24JeffMyeah not found right off the bat
23:57.40blast007ah, I might be on to something
23:58.10blast0072.3's libcurl project links to ares.lib, while 2.99.x's does not
23:58.21JeffMahh
23:58.26JeffMI may have done that
23:58.29JeffMand not needed to
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23:58.40blast007let me try without that
23:58.47JeffMremove the dependency too
23:58.50JeffMor it'll autolink
23:59.36blast007k
23:59.51JeffMdoing the same here

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