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| 01:57.56 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7545 10/w/Plug-ins: /* Overview */ missed a d |
| 02:01.50 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7546 10/w/BZFS_API: /* API Versions */ Don't talk about the future like it is already here. |
| 02:03.40 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7547 10/w/BZFS_API: /* API Versions */ Don't talk about the future like it is already here. |
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| 02:05.29 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7548 10/w/BZFS_API: /* Wiki Documentation */ the english... she escapes me. |
| 02:11.27 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7549 10/w/Plug-ins: Facts is facts. |
| 02:12.43 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7550 10/w/BZFS_API: /* Naming Conventions */ mention that it's all V3 |
| 02:15.25 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7551 10/w/BZFS_API: /* Entry Points */ clarifications,order, etc.. |
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| 02:18.25 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7552 10/w/BZFlag_3.0: /* HUD Markers */ better englishes |
| 02:19.36 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7553 10/w/BZFlag_3.0: /* Hit Volume */ |
| 02:21.39 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7554 10/w/BZFlag_3.0: /* Misconceptions about V3.0 */ some more truths |
| 02:22.25 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7555 10/w/BZFlag_3.0: /* Release Date */ Q1 2011 has come and passes us by baby! |
| 02:23.38 | JeffM | how awesome is this? The only page that is marked as "stale" (pages with old info) is titled "ideas" :) |
| 02:25.07 | blast007 | heh |
| 02:25.11 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7556 10/w/Daniel_Remenak: Hey it was on the "wanted" page. |
| 02:25.53 | JeffM | how do I make a page forward to another page? |
| 02:26.51 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7557 10/w/DTRemenak: by any other name..... |
| 02:28.14 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7558 10/w/Server_Updated_Shots: /* Generic Shot Updates */ BZ_API == BZFS_API |
| 02:29.01 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7559 10/w/Server_Updated_Shots: /* Generic Shot Updates */ ' ' != '_' |
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| 02:29.54 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7560 10/w/Server_Updated_Shots: /* Generic Shot Updates */ I suck |
| 02:31.31 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7561 10/w/Trepan: He is the Chuck Noris of Graphics Programing |
| 02:33.48 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7562 10/w/BZtank: GTFO |
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| 09:36.40 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * r21374 10/trunk/bzflag/misc/webauth/checkToken.php: The css parameter doesn't exist. |
| 09:40.11 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * r21375 10/trunk/db/ (5 files): |
| 09:40.11 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: There is no escape... |
| 09:40.11 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: Make the bzfsinfo.php script actually work, maybe. |
| 10:08.55 | KTL | those svn commit descriptions seem to become quite the read |
| 10:55.04 | brad | yay bz is back to active development again |
| 10:55.49 | brad | could aim for 3 commits tomorrow :p |
| 11:09.08 | ts | I find these fixed problems scary..wonder why no one seemed to abuse it. |
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| 12:25.25 | blast007 | ts: cuz nobody cares ;) |
| 12:27.10 | blast007 | and some of the escaping probably isn't necessary, specifically in the list server, since it already limits the input to specific characters |
| 12:27.23 | blast007 | ideally we'd use PDO and prepared statements |
| 12:28.03 | blast007 | but there's no PDO mysql driver on the server currently (*hint hint* brlcad) |
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| 16:53.32 | JeffM | mdskpr, sourceforge is the place for patches |
| 16:54.04 | JeffM | also why do you need a command line option AND a bzdb var? |
| 16:54.11 | JeffM | they can just set the var from the command line |
| 16:54.46 | mdskpr | well, that is so they can turn off the functionality in game if they want? or is that useless |
| 16:54.54 | JeffM | sure I understand that |
| 16:55.14 | blast007 | you can set vars from the command line |
| 16:55.19 | JeffM | but why do they need -hf if they can just do -var _hideRadarFlags:1 or whatever |
| 16:55.25 | blast007 | it's -set |
| 16:55.38 | blast007 | -set _hideRadarFlags 1 |
| 16:56.18 | JeffM | does it do all flags or just CTF flags? |
| 16:56.46 | mdskpr | all flags, but i could make it do just CTF flags..... |
| 16:58.08 | JeffM | remove the command line option |
| 16:58.23 | JeffM | and make 2 vars, one for teamflags and one for super flags |
| 16:58.33 | JeffM | you did this against trunck or branch? |
| 16:59.04 | mdskpr | branch |
| 16:59.19 | JeffM | then it's pointless |
| 16:59.24 | JeffM | since it needs a client change |
| 16:59.33 | JeffM | if you want it accepted it has to be against trunk |
| 16:59.48 | JeffM | if we did another branch release you could not be sure that all clients had it |
| 17:00.03 | JeffM | so the feature would be pointless since older clients would still see the flags |
| 17:00.04 | mdskpr | oops, i mean trunk...duh |
| 17:00.12 | JeffM | ok |
| 17:00.18 | mdskpr | 2.99x |
| 17:00.21 | JeffM | make those changes then submit it to SF |
| 17:00.29 | mdskpr | ok |
| 17:01.02 | JeffM | also check your tab settings to make sure they are set like the devinfo says |
| 17:01.14 | JeffM | your patch file has some wierdness in it |
| 17:33.55 | Cobra_Fast | JeffM: you doubleposted there http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=156914#p156914 |
| 17:34.31 | JeffM | it's cus I am so awesome |
| 17:34.39 | JeffM | one post can not contain me |
| 17:36.28 | Cobra_Fast | maybe use gzip to deflate your ego |
| 17:36.58 | JeffM | it's stored as an MP3, it dosn't go down much further |
| 17:37.03 | JeffM | I may try ogg at some point |
| 17:37.11 | JeffM | but I hear the conversion is hard. |
| 17:37.13 | JeffM | and lossy |
| 17:42.07 | JeffM | cool in the new phpbb you can actualy delete your last post :) |
| 17:51.11 | Cobra_Fast | you can delete any post of you that isnt older than an hour or so |
| 17:51.55 | JeffM | cool |
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| 18:21.36 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r21376 10/trunk/bzflag/ (AUTHORS src/bzfs/bzfsClientMessages.cxx): accept patch 3298475 for geno fix from David Anderson. |
| 18:38.48 | temporalD | Congrats on a bit of development! |
| 18:55.52 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03Bullet Catcher 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7563 10/w/V3RCChecklist: /* RC Critical fixes. */ add flag and font items |
| 18:56.45 | BulletCatcher | It seems pointless to make further enhancements to trunk when there are no plans to fix the critical bugs that prevent its release. |
| 19:05.09 | BulletCatcher | As I see it, the only way that a successful release with new (incompatible) features will occur is if we use v2_0branch as the base for a new 2.3 branch with the goal of releasing 2.4. |
| 19:06.07 | meem1029 | So what are these bugs that are critical and prevent the release of 3.0? |
| 19:06.53 | meem1029 | (Sorry if that's a stupid question. I'm new to software development but know some programming and am willing to help some with the project, since I've had a great time playing the game.) |
| 19:07.52 | BulletCatcher | The biggest problem is in dead reckoning. Tanks don't move smoothly, making them more difficult to hit. |
| 19:08.34 | BulletCatcher | The other critical items at http://my.bzflag.org/w/V3RCChecklist#RC_Critical_fixes. are correctable, I think. |
| 19:21.33 | mdskpr | what exactly is the MsgPause problem? |
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| 19:27.39 | BulletCatcher | When a player pauses, then resumes, then teleports, they get an autokick in bzfs.cxx: "Autokick: Looks like you tried to %s while paused." |
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| 19:28.04 | BulletCatcher | That's the only detailed note I have on that problem. |
| 19:40.33 | mdskpr | %s as in teleport? |
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| 19:44.04 | BulletCatcher | Yes. |
| 19:49.30 | JeffM | his patches would not have worked in branch |
| 19:49.40 | JeffM | as they require client changes |
| 19:50.39 | JeffM | it would also be pointless to throw away all the lua code |
| 19:50.50 | JeffM | and the other changes in trunk |
| 19:51.07 | JeffM | but it's not that we don't have plans, we never have plans. we have no desire to do anything |
| 19:51.23 | JeffM | so any development in any line is pointless to that degree |
| 19:54.32 | JeffM | unless you thing the main problem is that nobody understands the trunk code? |
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| 20:00.21 | BulletCatcher | The people who understand trunk best show no sign that they are able or willing to fix the critical DR problem. |
| 20:00.23 | BulletCatcher | If we want to release incompatible new features, I see no other alternative than to abandon trunk and begin again with what works (2.0.x). |
| 20:00.51 | JeffM | you have a group willing to work on a 2.0.x version? |
| 20:01.12 | JeffM | or just a hope that some group will form? |
| 20:01.30 | JeffM | TimRiker, do you care that nobody wants to work on your game? |
| 20:02.14 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, at the very least you can make a branch from 2.0.x and see if anyone will work on it. |
| 20:03.02 | BulletCatcher | I think that people like mdskpr and meem1029 would be even more willing to contribute if there was a realistic chance that it would lead to a release. |
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| 20:03.15 | JeffM | you could not call it 2.3 tho |
| 20:03.25 | JeffM | that does not fit with the version scheme |
| 20:03.27 | BulletCatcher | What do you recommend for a number? |
| 20:03.31 | blast007 | switch to roman numerals |
| 20:03.34 | JeffM | 2.7 dev |
| 20:03.38 | JeffM | then release it as 3.0 |
| 20:04.06 | JeffM | then you don't get any confusion during dev but still have a release that fits the scheeme |
| 20:04.41 | JeffM | mdskpr does have his own fork of bzflag you could all go onto that |
| 20:04.55 | mdskpr | that died |
| 20:04.56 | blast007 | is DVCS like Git and Mercurial at dealing with branches? seems like SVN kinda sucks at that for when it comes time to merge changes |
| 20:05.04 | BulletCatcher | 2.7 -> 3.0 would be fine. |
| 20:05.18 | meem1029 | Well, I should have been more up front when saying that. I know that I won't be able to do much at all until after this summer (since I'll be working at a camp). In the fall I'll probably be taking a class on c++ (I have fairly limited experience with it so far, just a fair amount in other languages) but I'd be willing to help some then. |
| 20:05.20 | JeffM | blast007, svn can do a 3 way merge it should be fine |
| 20:05.23 | blast007 | (suppose a "branch" in a DVCS is a fork) |
| 20:05.32 | JeffM | blast007, yes |
| 20:05.45 | mdskpr | wouldn't it make more sense to just solve 3.0's problems? |
| 20:05.53 | mdskpr | there are only a few |
| 20:05.58 | blast007 | few dozen |
| 20:05.59 | JeffM | if you can get people do deveop it yes |
| 20:06.05 | BulletCatcher | meem1029: Jumping right in is a great way to learn. :-) |
| 20:06.09 | JeffM | but the problem is not the code IMHO but the people |
| 20:06.25 | JeffM | trying to blame the code is just a way of ingoring the fact that it is the people |
| 20:06.59 | BulletCatcher | The people won't fix the code. |
| 20:07.16 | JeffM | then the people won't update 2.0.x code |
| 20:07.49 | JeffM | I have not seen any proof that people are more willing to develop on 2.0.x as oposed to 2.99. |
| 20:08.05 | JeffM | but perhaps I am not looking in the right places? |
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| 20:10.20 | BulletCatcher | There are always people who are willing and able to contribute changes, but I think they would like the "reward" of having those changes end up in a release. |
| 20:10.38 | JeffM | I agree but how does using older code ensure a release? |
| 20:10.47 | JeffM | just having less changes in a release? |
| 20:10.57 | BulletCatcher | Yes, basically. |
| 20:11.08 | blast007 | and if we're rolling back to 2.0.x code, is it worthy of being numbered 3.0? |
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| 20:11.20 | JeffM | blast007, it has to be called that if it's incompatable |
| 20:11.20 | BulletCatcher | My idea is to scale back the expectations of a new release based upon 2.0.x. |
| 20:11.24 | JeffM | if you keep the version idea |
| 20:11.32 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, then you need to rewrite the version spec |
| 20:11.35 | blast007 | 2.0.x had different versioning though |
| 20:11.46 | JeffM | the version spec was writen to include the last 2 releases |
| 20:11.54 | blast007 | k |
| 20:11.57 | JeffM | the last 2 incompatable ones were 1.10 and 2.0 |
| 20:12.00 | JeffM | so it fit |
| 20:12.21 | JeffM | 1.7 was the previous version that did not fit the spec |
| 20:12.26 | JeffM | but it was old enough that nobody cared |
| 20:12.47 | JeffM | you can change the spec to make the minor version be compatability |
| 20:12.50 | JeffM | that would work as well |
| 20:12.51 | BulletCatcher | I have no objection to changing the version numbering scheme if it is an obsacle to getting a release done. |
| 20:12.56 | JeffM | but then you should also go to 4 numbers |
| 20:13.04 | blast007 | oh, the number isn't the obstacle |
| 20:13.26 | JeffM | it would be good to produce more smaller releases, that I agree with |
| 20:13.30 | BulletCatcher | We can call the next true release 4.0 for all I care. |
| 20:13.32 | blast007 | was just something I just wanted to mention, since the point of having it be 3.0 instead of 2.2 was the vast amount of changes |
| 20:13.50 | JeffM | blast007, and to give us more "room" in version numbers |
| 20:14.09 | JeffM | to let the minor version mean things like 2.0.4 had |
| 20:14.27 | JeffM | where it was a big change (the API) but it had the same weight as .8 (a build fix) |
| 20:14.45 | JeffM | that API should have been released as 2.2 |
| 20:15.07 | JeffM | then we make all the little "Oh crap we forgot this" releases be 2.2.2, 2.2.4, etc... |
| 20:15.16 | JeffM | so you can say "I have 2.2" and have it mean something |
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| 20:15.25 | blast007 | BZFlag 65535.10.1-dev ---> BZFlag 0.0.0 (oh crap!) |
| 20:15.33 | JeffM | heh |
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| 20:15.43 | JeffM | make a branch, call it 2.7 |
| 20:15.48 | JeffM | see who works on it |
| 20:15.54 | JeffM | it's a valid experiement I think |
| 20:16.41 | JeffM | if it gains momentum then rewrite the vesions spec and change the code versions |
| 20:16.58 | JeffM | a little version confusion for a bit is wel worth development happening |
| 20:17.22 | blast007 | still think that whatever our spec is, it should include something that enables us to identify package rebuilds or tiny tweaks |
| 20:17.38 | blast007 | be it using the 3rd number, or a pX at the end |
| 20:17.57 | JeffM | yes that's why I say going to 4 numbers if the second is the compatability |
| 20:18.05 | JeffM | 4 is very standard |
| 20:18.53 | blast007 | could even exclude the 4th if it's just a 0, since it wouldn't generally be used unless we screw something up, right? |
| 20:18.55 | JeffM | but really, start the code.. see if that solves the problem |
| 20:19.01 | JeffM | if it does recon the versions |
| 20:19.14 | JeffM | don't waste time arguing about a number system :) |
| 20:19.18 | JeffM | that can always be solved |
| 20:19.23 | blast007 | ;) |
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| 20:19.56 | JeffM | if BulletCatcher is right then the version number is such a minor thing out of the entire process |
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| 20:20.41 | JeffM | and in svn you can always just move trunk to a tag then move the branch into trunk, they are just copy operations with history |
| 20:20.51 | JeffM | no data will be lost |
| 20:20.58 | JeffM | you don't have to merge |
| 20:21.20 | JeffM | cus you don't care about the history from current trunk with regrds to the code that came from 2.0.x |
| 20:21.41 | JeffM | you want to just move that history branch to a new tag, then move the branches history ( and it's data from 2.0.x) into the trunk folder. |
| 20:21.53 | blast007 | or convert it all to Mercurial ;) |
| 20:22.09 | JeffM | do you own stock in a hard drive compnay? |
| 20:22.18 | JeffM | cus that will solve nothing |
| 20:22.22 | blast007 | maaaaaybe |
| 20:22.37 | JeffM | you don't want any development o happen offline |
| 20:22.49 | JeffM | or you'll get the same problem that we had in the SOC |
| 20:22.54 | JeffM | giant code dumps |
| 20:23.08 | JeffM | then you will have a problem with people understanding the code |
| 20:23.33 | JeffM | and management is so screwed up now that you don't want to have a gatekeeper for pulls |
| 20:23.40 | blast007 | well, if we ever did go with a DVCS, I'd say have it on some site (as in, not SF) that allows forking easily - and then forks can be tracked, and people can constantly push their changes to their forks |
| 20:23.47 | blast007 | but that's just my ideal vision of DVCS :P |
| 20:24.01 | blast007 | doubt it would be like that for real.. |
| 20:24.02 | JeffM | bzflag dosn't have lots of forks |
| 20:24.15 | JeffM | I could see that working for other projects but not this one |
| 20:24.20 | JeffM | you want a centeral design |
| 20:24.24 | JeffM | not haphazard stuff |
| 20:24.30 | JeffM | cus it hasn't worked in the past |
| 20:25.08 | JeffM | I can make the SVN changes for a 2.4.x.x branch if you want |
| 20:25.10 | JeffM | it's super easy |
| 20:25.18 | JeffM | then it's just a mod to the version docs an you are set |
| 20:25.36 | BulletCatcher | I want to document the goals for 2.7 (planning!) before committing the branch into svn, but I hope to make it happen within a couple of weeks. |
| 20:25.44 | BulletCatcher | Thanks for your input, JeffM. I hope you will find motivation to contribute. |
| 20:26.07 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, I hope ohers will find the motivation :) |
| 20:26.15 | JeffM | cus it's not me that is going to make or break this thing |
| 20:26.27 | BulletCatcher | I know. |
| 20:26.39 | meem1029 | like I said, I won't be able to do anything til the fall. |
| 20:26.43 | JeffM | unless TimRiker wants to make me maintainer, then I can make it or break it. |
| 20:27.34 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, if you want to do this it may be best to move away from Tim's project, just for it on google code or something then have it use a different URL for the list server. |
| 20:27.39 | JeffM | then you can make stability changes |
| 20:27.43 | JeffM | on the services side |
| 20:27.54 | JeffM | I don't think TimRiker cares anymore |
| 20:28.00 | BulletCatcher | No problem, meem1029. If you hang around here and development picks up before then, you will have good background just by following the discussion. |
| 20:28.20 | meem1029 | Since I'm gone in a couple of weeks I'm not even going to try to get involved pre-summer. |
| 20:28.29 | BulletCatcher | ok :-) |
| 20:28.40 | blast007 | wonder if google code supports importing a repo - if we wanted to maintain history, we could dump the whole thing from SF |
| 20:28.52 | JeffM | blast007, it may |
| 20:29.00 | JeffM | there is an export and import feature in SVN IIRC |
| 20:29.11 | blast007 | it's part of the 'svnadmin' stuff |
| 20:29.52 | blast007 | think you have to use the shell on SF to dump it, but I can't remember anymore - that's just partial memories coming back from when we switched from CVS to SVN |
| 20:30.04 | JeffM | it should be possible |
| 20:30.38 | JeffM | if you can get TimRiker to turn over the domain and maintainership to someone then you can stay on sf, and it's svn isn't that bad |
| 20:30.40 | blast007 | and I've got a VM running on my server that I could throw the services into |
| 20:31.03 | JeffM | I have a full debian server at the same place as the current services you can use if you want |
| 20:31.08 | JeffM | with no IRC bots ;) |
| 20:31.22 | BulletCatcher | Moving away from TimRiker's infrastructure is outside the scope I envision for 2.7. |
| 20:31.23 | BulletCatcher | However, if 2.7 does lead to a successful release then that would be a subsequent possibility. |
| 20:31.27 | blast007 | BZFlag - now with 25% less memory being sucked up by IRC clients! |
| 20:31.43 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, probalby |
| 20:31.48 | JeffM | I'd like to see your requirements doc |
| 20:32.05 | BulletCatcher | And you will before I write any code, I promise. |
| 20:32.12 | JeffM | cooleo |
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| 20:50.17 | JeffM | just wants to see something happen, even if it's not the C# rewrite I envisioned |
| 20:51.13 | meem1029 | C# requires Windows to develop on, doesn't it? |
| 20:51.38 | JeffM | nope |
| 20:51.42 | JeffM | monodev |
| 20:52.40 | JeffM | nearly every argument anyone can use in support of Java can be used to support C# |
| 20:53.31 | JeffM | but if using the older code will spur development I'm all for it |
| 20:53.34 | meem1029 | What about "I know Java already but not C#"? *grin* |
| 20:53.46 | JeffM | C# is a lot like java |
| 20:53.52 | meem1029 | (don't worry, that wasn't serious. I'm totally up for learning new languages) |
| 20:54.05 | JeffM | they are all base don C |
| 20:54.18 | *** join/#bzflag PatSphere (~root@gladsheim.nullbytestudios.net) |
| 20:56.12 | JeffM | and the language you program in is a very minor part of programing |
| 20:56.20 | JeffM | all programers should be able to work in any language |
| 20:56.55 | JeffM | except for VB.. it's evil |
| 21:06.03 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, just FYI, this would be the second time we've ditched code from trunck |
| 21:06.26 | JeffM | but it really did have the problem of nobody understanding it cus it was writen by 2 guys |
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| 21:23.31 | JeffM | TimRiker, GvzEvxre I would like to talk to you about bzflag's future when you have time. |
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| 21:40.02 | TimRiker | JeffM, talk away. I poke my head in from time to time as you've seen. I'm not against a move to google code if desired. or git or whatever. |
| 21:40.23 | TimRiker | reads more history |
| 21:40.31 | JeffM | TimRiker, I want to go deeper then that. Do you want to be the maintainer of bzflag still? |
| 21:40.49 | JeffM | or are you willing to turn it all over to someone who would be more active? |
| 21:48.05 | TimRiker | JeffM, in principle if there was someone more active (and that's not hard) then I would consider it. as you mentioned, there's nothing stopping anyone from starting a new fork anywhere they like now. Like you, I'm happy to see branches created in the tree if someone wants to start a new initiative. |
| 21:48.35 | JeffM | I'll do it if just to see the project move somewhere |
| 21:48.43 | JeffM | people can fork but they don't want to |
| 21:48.47 | JeffM | it splits the community |
| 21:49.17 | TimRiker | agreed. the failure to launch 3.0 has stagnated the project. I' |
| 21:49.35 | JeffM | I like BulletCatcher's idea but it would be a lot more meaningful if it had the backing and active involvment of the maintainer |
| 21:50.02 | TimRiker | I've been busy with other projects and I don't have a feel for exactly what the blocking issues are. |
| 21:50.05 | JeffM | and I'd hope that at least if I became stagnat I'd see it and pass it on again ( hopefuly to an org) |
| 21:50.18 | JeffM | TimRiker, there are tons of issues most of them social |
| 21:50.26 | JeffM | lack of management/direction |
| 21:50.36 | JeffM | so I just want to know do you WANT to do this still? |
| 21:51.06 | JeffM | or do you do it just cus you were given it last? |
| 21:51.11 | TimRiker | there are not tons of issues in getting a release out. There is a reasonable sized list I'd guess of missing bits though. |
| 21:51.29 | TimRiker | I |
| 21:51.44 | JeffM | the issues with geting a release out are the issues that the project has as a whole, not a techincal list of bugs |
| 21:51.53 | TimRiker | I'd like to get more involved, but real life has been in the way for a while now. |
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| 21:52.18 | JeffM | would you be willing to turn over maintinership for now, then if you get more involved you can develop and stuff |
| 21:52.26 | JeffM | then if need be take it back if life lets you? |
| 21:52.38 | JeffM | cus honestly I've seen you say that for the past 5 years |
| 21:52.49 | JeffM | and trust me I know life can get in the way :) |
| 21:52.53 | TimRiker | does that mean someone else will get deal with all the coppa email? :) |
| 21:53.03 | JeffM | yes I'd be willing to deal with that |
| 21:53.08 | JeffM | and all the service issues |
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| 21:54.00 | JeffM | I'm getting the shirt money anyway now so that can pay for domain etc... |
| 21:54.04 | TimRiker | how 'bout I designate a release lead? someone more plugged into the technical issues than I am? |
| 21:54.27 | TimRiker | hehe. I'm sure you're getting rich on the shirt money. ;) |
| 21:54.28 | JeffM | that may help a little bit, but the big thing is game designer |
| 21:54.40 | JeffM | yep I've got all 20$ of it :) |
| 21:54.57 | JeffM | we also need to work on the services and that's hard when we don't controll the domain |
| 21:55.42 | JeffM | as for a release lead, we've kinda done that on our own in the past so that hasn't been that big of a problem. |
| 21:55.51 | TimRiker | tell me more about that. the services aren't on anything I run. |
| 21:55.55 | JeffM | the stuff now is more like a bzflag roadmap and design docs |
| 21:56.20 | JeffM | brlcad runs the services, they suck the machine is horrible. We would want to move it to another machine but you run the domain |
| 21:56.27 | JeffM | he's also MIA |
| 21:56.33 | TimRiker | well, unless you count the last 1.7 server I run now and then. |
| 21:56.35 | JeffM | now if you can change the domain entry for us that can help |
| 21:56.53 | JeffM | but I'm trying to judge how much envolvement you are willing to commit to |
| 21:57.30 | TimRiker | sure. fire them up someplace else and holler. I was going to start xmission as a backup. I mirrored the data a few times, but didn't get farther yet. |
| 21:57.42 | JeffM | yeah xmission isn't going to cut it |
| 21:58.28 | TimRiker | replies to another coppa email |
| 21:58.33 | JeffM | services are sql pigs now |
| 21:58.43 | JeffM | and ram hogs |
| 21:59.05 | JeffM | so my main question is "Where do you want/see bzflag going?" |
| 22:01.13 | TimRiker | I'd like to get some of the security issues resolved that were at least partly addressed in pre3 code. I'd like to see bots working, which last I tried seemed to be completely missing. I'd like to see skins added so models are downloaded as well as images, from central services (unless a user approves others) |
| 22:01.48 | JeffM | do you want it to be made playable over the internet ( or is that what you mean by security?) |
| 22:01.58 | TimRiker | It would be nice to review the services to see what's in use and fold the common things into the server to consume less resources. |
| 22:02.33 | TimRiker | yes. improve where we are. people are playing over the Internet, perhaps you had not noticed? |
| 22:02.34 | JeffM | do you honestly think you'll have time to manage this over the next year ( on a multi day per week basis)? |
| 22:02.47 | JeffM | they are not playing well over the internet, lag is a major issue |
| 22:02.55 | JeffM | perhpas you have not noticed? |
| 22:03.13 | TimRiker | lag is a major issue, but people play anyway. |
| 22:03.21 | JeffM | yes fewer each day |
| 22:03.33 | JeffM | player stats are droping, cheat acusations rising. |
| 22:04.06 | JeffM | so you don't think a more robust simulation system that can handle variable lag is important as tank skins? |
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| 22:05.01 | TimRiker | average players online has been around 85 for the past few months. it's down from perhaps 100 last year same time. I would not call that fewer each day, but certainly a downward trend. |
| 22:05.20 | JeffM | how many this time 2 years ago? |
| 22:05.24 | JeffM | and 3 years ago? |
| 22:05.39 | TimRiker | probably 125 or so. I don't keep stats that far back. |
| 22:05.58 | JeffM | its been tending down for number of years |
| 22:06.04 | TimRiker | agreed |
| 22:06.26 | JeffM | are you willing/able to write up a multi release roadmap for future versions that we can work from? |
| 22:06.38 | TimRiker | I'm willing to approve one. |
| 22:06.50 | JeffM | that's at least something |
| 22:07.10 | JeffM | how about a gameplay design document |
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| 22:08.00 | TimRiker | I don't know what you're looking for there that does not already exist. I can see new features that would require documenting as they effect game play. |
| 22:08.23 | JeffM | a document that describes how the game should be played and what it "should" do |
| 22:08.39 | JeffM | so that new feature ideas can be judged against it to see if they go against the design goals. |
| 22:08.45 | JeffM | a "spec" as it were |
| 22:08.54 | JeffM | surely you have specs for the teams you manage at your work |
| 22:10.15 | TimRiker | again, there's already quite a few sources of game play information. I don't see any point in re-doing that work to document what is out there and has not changed for years. I do see a need to discuss and document new features, and/or changes. |
| 22:10.48 | JeffM | so it's ok just for a developer to put in any flag they want as long as they document it? |
| 22:11.47 | TimRiker | no. clearly not. there are wiki pages already that give guidelines on flags including some that we have stated we don't plan to add. |
| 22:12.04 | JeffM | sort of |
| 22:12.08 | TimRiker | surely new flags is not the focus of this forward planned documentation? |
| 22:12.12 | JeffM | but I understand your postion |
| 22:12.23 | JeffM | god no, but that was just an example |
| 22:12.33 | JeffM | the game has too many flags allready |
| 22:12.45 | JeffM | it needs end user polish |
| 22:13.05 | JeffM | and some modernisation |
| 22:13.48 | JeffM | but I wanted to see where you sat on the concept of game design and how it plays in the development of a video game. |
| 22:15.10 | TimRiker | important, certainly. but to document-what's-implemented instead of implementing would not the the best use of time, imho. |
| 22:15.52 | JeffM | for implementations I agree, I was talking about a more high level "should do this" document, because the code currently dosn't do everything we think i should do |
| 22:16.10 | JeffM | but you are seeing it as implementation is the spec and I undertand that |
| 22:17.06 | JeffM | mostly I am looking to see if you are going to lead the project anywhere. |
| 22:17.31 | TimRiker | so, if you have a "should do this" then that's _new_ and should be documented. |
| 22:18.45 | TimRiker | do we need to have this conversation again? we've done it over and over already. |
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| 22:20.57 | JeffM | I do not have this document, I would simply like to see one writen as that would be a better guideline for future development |
| 22:21.05 | JeffM | to go allong with the roadmap |
| 22:21.13 | TimRiker | sounds great to me |
| 22:23.05 | JeffM | but this isn't work you have time to do right now, correct? |
| 22:23.38 | TimRiker | I'll find the time to review such a document, but no, I don't think I'll find the time to write one. |
| 22:24.01 | JeffM | how much time to you feel you have to give to bzflag management? |
| 22:25.33 | TimRiker | dunno really. I could find 10 hours a week if needed. probably not more than that right now. |
| 22:26.08 | JeffM | how motivated are you to see bzflag move forward? |
| 22:27.07 | JeffM | enough to ask people how they are doing on things and making sure things get done for a release? |
| 22:27.19 | TimRiker | sure |
| 22:27.47 | Constitution | if I could offer another developer's perspective, I will say that it's difficult to stay motivated as a developer to work on things when the #1 guy is rarely seen, except to drop in now and then in a minimal supervisory capacity |
| 22:28.18 | TimRiker | though "making sure" in the past often means "write it all yourself" and I can't do a lot of coding in that time. |
| 22:28.41 | JeffM | TimRiker, you don't see any other way of motivating people to work for you? |
| 22:28.52 | Constitution | I would love to see the maintainer be the most involved person, among the top code contributers, and someone who demonstrates a real interest in the project |
| 22:29.34 | TimRiker | Constitution, hence my comment that we probably need a release manager. I don't have enough time for that at the moment. |
| 22:30.12 | TimRiker | As is normal with me, I'm actively involved in quite a few other projects. |
| 22:30.33 | JeffM | indeed more so then I'd care to take on :) |
| 22:30.38 | JeffM | you are a brave man |
| 22:30.50 | TimRiker | well, something anyway |
| 22:31.31 | JeffM | you designating someone as a "go to" person would at least be a step in the right direciton IMHO if you want to maintain maintainership |
| 22:31.46 | JeffM | and keep a coherent project |
| 22:32.06 | JeffM | we can fork it if we have to, but that dosn't help the players |
| 22:32.16 | JeffM | and it's been frustraiting for the past year |
| 22:33.51 | Constitution | TimRiker: sure, designating someone to coordinate development might be an improvement, but then I have to ask what is the value of your involvement if you've designated one of the most important roles away? Why not put someone who can afford to be more involved in charge, if you cannot. |
| 22:34.07 | TimRiker | Let's throw a plan together. I'm happy to get votes and/or suggestions on a release manager. Imagine the glory that awaits you! LOL |
| 22:34.33 | JeffM | who do you want to vote? |
| 22:34.50 | TimRiker | Constitution, the issues I've been most involved with lately are coppa registration and license violations. |
| 22:35.05 | JeffM | how many license violations do you get a year? |
| 22:36.15 | TimRiker | perhaps 3 or 4 reported incidents. Most involve just an email request and they get rectified. I've not sent a take down notice in a long time. |
| 22:36.16 | Constitution | I think we would be more than happy to designate you as the intellectual property coordinator and license manager, if you were willing to abdicate your maintainer position |
| 22:36.31 | Constitution | if that's really what you want to continue doing |
| 22:36.53 | JeffM | yea could break it into an owner and a manager kinda think |
| 22:36.59 | TimRiker | I do get requests from magazines etc. that want to include the game now and then. mostly overseas in hard to read translated requests. =P |
| 22:37.00 | JeffM | like the footballs :) |
| 22:37.20 | TimRiker | :) |
| 22:37.40 | JeffM | ok like socker, cus yeah.. the nfl.. that ain't working out so well |
| 22:37.46 | TimRiker | I'm fine with that, especially if it gets development rolling again. |
| 22:38.01 | JeffM | well the current method isn't realy doing anything to get it going |
| 22:38.07 | TimRiker | agreed! |
| 22:38.23 | JeffM | if you want a vote you need to say who you want involved in the vote |
| 22:38.51 | JeffM | if you want an open vote to the players then I'll just say right now that I can make the winner be the highest bidder :) |
| 22:39.00 | TimRiker | I'm looking for some consensus. it does not need to be a formal vote. |
| 22:39.16 | JeffM | does anyone else want the job? |
| 22:39.58 | JeffM | I am willing to do it |
| 22:40.15 | JeffM | BulletCatcher also seems to have the drive but I'm not sure he wants that kind of job |
| 22:40.27 | TimRiker | I'd like to hear opinions from some of the developers before deciding. I don't expect there will be many interested in taking it on. |
| 22:40.30 | JeffM | I can't speak for blast007 or Constitution |
| 22:40.52 | JeffM | so people who have coimmited in the last couple years or something |
| 22:40.57 | JeffM | cus we can send them an email |
| 22:41.03 | JeffM | so they are notified |
| 22:41.14 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM] by ChanServ |
| 22:41.17 | TimRiker | sure. that makes sense. |
| 22:41.31 | JeffM | I will work that list out tonight and send an email |
| 22:41.37 | Constitution | I don't feel that I have the experience for it, although I might get more involved in development if there was a more dedicated leader or clearer vision. JeffM would have my full vote of confidence |
| 22:41.40 | JeffM | and copy the dev mailing list just in case |
| 22:41.46 | TimRiker | want to use the mailing list for development? I've not looked to see who's still signed up. |
| 22:41.59 | JeffM | it is not used but yes I'll copy to that |
| 22:42.00 | TimRiker | :) |
| 22:42.30 | JeffM | wonders why he didn't wait till tomorow to have this conversation when he has the use of both of his hands. |
| 22:43.06 | TimRiker | hehe |
| 22:43.12 | JeffM | I should be able to get a list from CIA |
| 22:43.18 | JeffM | and filter out wiki hits |
| 22:44.33 | TimRiker | sounds like a plan |
| 22:47.08 | JeffM | who wants to be mentioned as a candidate in the email I send? |
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| 22:53.45 | TimRiker | does SF run statsvn? |
| 22:54.21 | JeffM | dunno, Im just using my client to check the logs |
| 22:54.25 | JeffM | it's just not fast |
| 22:56.02 | TimRiker | http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/detail.php?group_id=3248&ugn=bzflag&type=svn <- not much use there... |
| 22:56.35 | JeffM | if I go back to 2009 that gives me 22 authors |
| 22:56.44 | JeffM | tho that includes some SOC work |
| 22:56.49 | JeffM | probably should go to when that ended |
| 22:57.50 | JeffM | 1 year sadly gets us down to 11 authors |
| 22:59.59 | JeffM | going back to 10/2009 gives us blast007, brlcad, brygen, bthansen, BulletCatcher, Cobra_Fast, daxxar, dtr, me, Constitution, runic, t-s, and trepan |
| 23:00.05 | JeffM | with trepan winning and C++ |
| 23:00.28 | JeffM | at ! and :) |
| 23:01.47 | JeffM | heh, trepan wins at C++ unless you go back to the dawn of time |
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| 23:15.16 | TimRiker | gotta head. I'll poke in more often to see what's happening and watch email too. |
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| 23:24.27 | JeffM | this is the email I am looking to send, does it read ok? http://pastebin.com/0q5tQm9U |
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| 23:25.17 | mdskpr | line 3: change no -> to |
| 23:25.21 | JeffM | got that |
| 23:25.50 | mdskpr | line 3: projects -> project's |
| 23:26.00 | delusional | it's some kind of progress |
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| 23:29.16 | JeffM | is maintainership a word? |
| 23:30.23 | JeffM | yeah getting him to agree to someone else for development is a step forward |
| 23:30.30 | JeffM | he's not bad to deal with one on one |
| 23:30.49 | JeffM | it's just hard to get him involved in long term discussions due to the time he has |
| 23:31.07 | JeffM | so it good enough to send? |
| 23:31.11 | Constitution | I suppose having him stay involved in that capacity is not a bad thing necessarily... but we do need more leadership on the development side of things |
| 23:31.22 | JeffM | yeah |
| 23:31.48 | JeffM | not sure what he wants to keep but hey, if he deals with the booring stuff and lets the other person get dev going then it's fine |
| 23:32.02 | JeffM | hits the send button |
| 23:32.18 | JeffM | and now everyone knows my work email :) |
| 23:32.54 | mdskpr | actually the whole world knows it cus it was at the bottom of your pastebin link |
| 23:33.05 | JeffM | that's not my work mail |
| 23:33.11 | JeffM | tho we do use gmail |
| 23:33.39 | JeffM | time to see how many failed :) |
| 23:33.58 | JeffM | Cobra_Fast, your sf email bounced |
| 23:34.01 | JeffM | FYI |
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| 23:44.23 | JeffM | heh... branch hasn't built in a year on windows.... |
| 23:45.44 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r21377 10/branches/v2_0branch/bzflag/src/bzflag/ServerListFilter.cxx: strof does not exist on windows, use strtod and cast |
| 23:45.50 | CIA-14 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r21378 10/branches/v2_0branch/bzflag/win32/VC9/bzflag.vcproj: add ServerListFilter files |
| 23:47.03 | Constitution | ~JeffM2501++ |
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| 23:47.28 | JeffM | oh so an email gets him to show up :) |
| 23:47.55 | Erroneous | hah |
| 23:48.43 | JeffM | this is going to be like SVNs "tabs are 2 spaces or 4" thing isn't it? |
| 23:49.10 | Erroneous | tabs are 8 spaces ;) |
| 23:49.16 | JeffM | whatever |
| 23:49.19 | JeffM | thanks to a plugin |
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| 23:54.15 | JeffM | thanks Constitution for the endorsment of of law enforcement |
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| 23:56.10 | Constitution | in a personal capacity, of course ;) |
| 23:56.23 | JeffM | so I can't tear up this ticket I got? |
| 23:56.57 | Constitution | it's your personal property now... you can do with it whatever you please :) |
| 23:57.04 | JeffM | heh |
| 23:57.05 | blast007 | hehe |
| 23:57.35 | JeffM | sadly the officer did not write down the correct address on it, even tho I gave him my change of addy card |
| 23:57.47 | JeffM | I guess not having license plates confused him |
| 23:58.47 | Constitution | oh you were serious... was it highway patrol? |
| 23:59.01 | JeffM | no, navajo county sherif |
| 23:59.05 | JeffM | already paid it |
| 23:59.16 | Constitution | ah ok |
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| 23:59.33 | JeffM | was on the way home from phx with my moms ashes, didn't see the change in limit sign :/ |
| 23:59.37 | Constitution | didn't know that his agency actually wrote traffic tickets |
| 23:59.53 | Constitution | :( |