| 00:03.23 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart2@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
| 00:03.23 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 00:08.41 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501) |
| 00:08.41 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 00:22.08 | *** join/#bzflag Packman (~chatzilla@115-188-178-133.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 00:23.24 | Packman | I'm compiling 2.0.16 source on fedora with these commands: |
| 00:23.26 | Packman | ./autogen.sh |
| 00:23.27 | Packman | ./configure --enable-shared --disable-client --disable-bzadmin |
| 00:23.29 | Packman | make |
| 00:23.30 | Packman | When I run "./src/bzfs/bzfs -loadplugin shockwaveDeath.la" the plugin isn't there, and /loadplugin, /listplugins aren't recognised. |
| 00:23.32 | Packman | How do i fix this? |
| 00:24.44 | mrapple | use the .so, not .la |
| 00:25.51 | Packman | shouldn't I be able to /loadplugin anyway? |
| 00:26.09 | mrapple | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:26.20 | mrapple | loading it from the commandline is best |
| 00:26.26 | JeffM2501 | mrapple, if list dosn't run then I don't think it built with plugin support |
| 00:26.31 | JeffM2501 | did it build a .so for you? |
| 00:27.18 | mrapple | oh he said arent recgonized |
| 00:27.30 | JeffM2501 | read all the words ;) |
| 00:27.32 | mrapple | well i have to go, good luck |
| 00:27.39 | mrapple | reading isnt my strength |
| 00:27.49 | JeffM2501 | and you write software.... great |
| 00:28.04 | Packman | no, didn't build .so for me |
| 00:28.08 | blast007 | Packman: do you have libtool installed? |
| 00:28.09 | mrapple | im good at writing, not reading :P |
| 00:28.16 | mrapple | later, good luck Packman |
| 00:28.33 | JeffM2501 | you cant write with out reading what you wrote ;) |
| 00:28.34 | blast007 | mrapple: going by your "im" I have to disagree with that first part too. |
| 00:29.04 | Packman | I have libtool-2.2.10 installed |
| 00:29.22 | blast007 | and autogen said it found it? |
| 00:29.36 | blast007 | ./autogen.sh -v provides more detail |
| 00:30.46 | BulletCatcher | It should work if you do a "make install". But the default prefix of /usr/local may not be what you want. |
| 00:30.48 | JeffM2501 | seems to be a common problem on nix, getting the plugins to go |
| 00:30.51 | blast007 | (also, when you're running out of the source directory, you'll need to provide the path to the .so as well, not just the plugin or file name) |
| 00:31.16 | blast007 | BulletCatcher: main issue seems to be that the slash commands are not recognized |
| 00:31.24 | blast007 | which implies no plugin support was built |
| 00:31.34 | JeffM2501 | that happens when the #def is set for no plugins |
| 00:31.40 | Packman | well it does mention "config.status: executing libtool commands" |
| 00:31.58 | JeffM2501 | you sure you are running the correct binary? the one that was built? |
| 00:32.13 | JeffM2501 | not one you had installed? |
| 00:32.39 | blast007 | and why 2.0.16? if you're building, might as well get it from v2_0branch SVN |
| 00:32.41 | Packman | i believe so, i have been checking the date created |
| 00:32.45 | JeffM2501 | the one installed from the package dosn't have plugin support because TimRiker never builds with plugin support |
| 00:33.09 | Packman | so best bet is to use what blast said? |
| 00:33.17 | blast007 | no |
| 00:33.24 | blast007 | it should work in either |
| 00:33.34 | blast007 | my point was just that if you're building anyway.... |
| 00:33.55 | BulletCatcher | Perhaps you didn't start out with a clean source tree. "make maintainer-clean" and then back to the beginning with autogen.sh ought to work. |
| 00:33.58 | *** join/#bzflag smoooth (~smoooth@cpe-098-024-240-002.ec.res.rr.com) |
| 00:38.15 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright_ (~a3@ip24-251-157-63.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 00:41.33 | Packman | ah thanks, that did it |
| 00:44.59 | BulletCatcher | Yay. |
| 00:45.30 | *** part/#bzflag kierra (~jolie@unaffiliated/kierra) |
| 00:49.58 | *** join/#bzflag boxfresh (4fdcd22e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.220.210.46) |
| 00:50.21 | boxfresh | anyone around? |
| 00:50.26 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 00:50.32 | boxfresh | evenin' |
| 00:50.45 | JeffM2501 | hello |
| 00:50.56 | boxfresh | scroll+mousewheel to zoom in/out of radar works fine in 2.0.14 and not in .16 |
| 00:51.14 | JeffM2501 | what platform? |
| 00:51.18 | boxfresh | Mac OSX |
| 00:51.36 | JeffM2501 | that's BulletCatcher's realm |
| 00:52.43 | boxfresh | bind "Shift+Wheel Up" down "radarZoom in" bind "Shift+Wheel Down" down "radarZoom out" |
| 00:52.46 | boxfresh | the ones in question |
| 00:52.56 | boxfresh | all the clients use the same config, correct? |
| 00:53.01 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 00:53.08 | boxfresh | yeah |
| 00:53.11 | JeffM2501 | probably something to do with sdl |
| 00:53.22 | boxfresh | which would mean that I'd need another build |
| 00:53.24 | boxfresh | ? |
| 00:53.28 | JeffM2501 | dunno |
| 00:53.38 | boxfresh | or what kind of fixes can be done there |
| 00:53.47 | JeffM2501 | any klind that anyone is willing to make |
| 00:53.48 | boxfresh | well I'll pop back and see if BulletCatcher is around |
| 00:54.02 | boxfresh | thanks |
| 00:54.09 | JeffM2501 | he's arround |
| 00:54.58 | JeffM2501 | I don't belive the .16 build was made by the same guy as the .14 so that may be an issue |
| 00:55.11 | boxfresh | Const did .14? |
| 00:55.22 | JeffM2501 | const did 16 IIRC, someone else did 14 |
| 00:55.28 | boxfresh | ah.. |
| 00:56.21 | blast007 | could always try a build yourself |
| 00:56.30 | JeffM2501 | I don't know how many changes there are between .14 and .16 on the mac, probalby not many |
| 00:56.39 | *** join/#bzflag soxs (~Adium@pool-72-74-215-91.bstnma.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:56.53 | boxfresh | well i was recently accused of cheating by .. soxs who just joined |
| 00:57.08 | boxfresh | and i dont mind using an up to date client at all, just "raises suspicion" |
| 00:57.13 | soxs | what? |
| 00:57.14 | JeffM2501 | I don't think 16 has any changes that would be seen as cheats |
| 00:57.14 | boxfresh | if not |
| 00:57.24 | boxfresh | no, using an outdated client |
| 00:57.28 | JeffM2501 | most accusations are lag |
| 00:57.34 | JeffM2501 | bzflag is horrible about dealing with lag |
| 00:57.38 | JeffM2501 | it's not an internet game |
| 00:57.50 | boxfresh | it's not a serious game either |
| 00:57.58 | smoooth | i am serious about it |
| 00:57.59 | boxfresh | dont have Dev tools installed, could though |
| 00:58.10 | boxfresh | no, you are too serious about it |
| 00:58.16 | boxfresh | get a life and relax on the whole cheating thing |
| 00:58.21 | JeffM2501 | thats for a private discussion between you to |
| 00:58.23 | JeffM2501 | two |
| 00:58.23 | boxfresh | i can see where this is going |
| 00:58.25 | boxfresh | bye |
| 00:58.31 | boxfresh | thanks Jeff |
| 00:58.34 | JeffM2501 | you could try to put the .16 bin in the .14 app |
| 00:58.39 | boxfresh | thats an idea |
| 00:58.45 | boxfresh | be back if anything changes |
| 00:58.46 | soxs | that's a cheat/ |
| 00:58.46 | soxs | in the gu league. |
| 00:58.46 | JeffM2501 | that may make it use the older SDL, if it's an SDL issue |
| 00:58.52 | smoooth | all i said was i was serious about the game... is that a crime.. gah i didnt accuse or say anything |
| 00:59.00 | JeffM2501 | private guys |
| 00:59.06 | boxfresh | what is a cheat, soxs? |
| 00:59.06 | JeffM2501 | not the place for it |
| 00:59.11 | boxfresh | i apologize smoooth |
| 00:59.14 | boxfresh | ok |
| 00:59.23 | JeffM2501 | soxs, it's the same EXE, just in a different package, I don't think they count that as a mod |
| 00:59.24 | soxs | pm me sweetie. |
| 00:59.26 | JeffM2501 | it's just moving the folder |
| 00:59.30 | soxs | ok, understood. |
| 00:59.39 | soxs | i thought it required a modification to the source. |
| 00:59.42 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 00:59.47 | soxs | ok- understood. |
| 00:59.48 | JeffM2501 | the .app is just a specialy flagged folder |
| 00:59.51 | KTL | boxfresh, whatever client you use, if you play well there will always be fools that see cheats |
| 01:00.11 | JeffM2501 | and lag, lag makes it look like you got shot but didn't |
| 01:00.26 | JeffM2501 | bzflag was desgined to accept lag where the lag time is less then your frame time |
| 01:00.32 | JeffM2501 | that dosn't happen on the internet |
| 01:00.34 | boxfresh | I'm aware of that KTl |
| 01:00.53 | *** join/#bzflag NTH (~AndChat@212.183.140.24) |
| 01:01.01 | boxfresh | doesn't mean i shouldn't try and prevent the most annoying ones such as "why are you using an 'old' client" |
| 01:01.31 | JeffM2501 | we take forever in making mac clients, so those players are at a disavantage there |
| 01:01.35 | JeffM2501 | also debian users |
| 01:01.42 | KTL | really? :) |
| 01:01.45 | soxs | JeffM2501: isn't it best to use the most up to date client? |
| 01:01.49 | soxs | if possible? |
| 01:01.53 | JeffM2501 | not really |
| 01:01.57 | boxfresh | thank you |
| 01:01.58 | JeffM2501 | most of the recent changes are all server side |
| 01:02.06 | boxfresh | whats the difference between 2.0.14 and .16 anyway |
| 01:02.08 | JeffM2501 | anything in the .10+ is pretty much the same |
| 01:02.11 | boxfresh | some minimal changes to observer mode |
| 01:02.12 | JeffM2501 | mostly server stuff |
| 01:02.15 | boxfresh | and Jeff, that just worked |
| 01:02.23 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 01:02.30 | boxfresh | replacing the 2.0.16.bin in the .14 resources folder |
| 01:02.30 | JeffM2501 | so they must have used a different SDL |
| 01:02.43 | soxs | so then why would some users clients crash on 2.0.16 and not 2.0.10 if there is no chnages? |
| 01:02.49 | JeffM2501 | the other data files are the same between 14 1nd 16 |
| 01:02.57 | JeffM2501 | soxs, bugs |
| 01:03.01 | JeffM2501 | we always make bugs :) |
| 01:03.04 | smoooth | if an older version were worse than the new version, why was a new version made? i say having an up to date client is the best policy |
| 01:03.07 | boxfresh | not features |
| 01:03.14 | smoooth | but i agree there is not a lot of difference between |
| 01:03.29 | boxfresh | it isn't worse than the new one thought is it |
| 01:03.30 | JeffM2501 | smoooth, it can be, but you have to understand that while changes are made that intend to be better, sometimes they are not |
| 01:03.35 | JeffM2501 | there is no QA process for bzflag |
| 01:03.44 | soxs | so server side bugs will crash a client? |
| 01:03.48 | JeffM2501 | could |
| 01:03.51 | soxs | ic. |
| 01:03.55 | JeffM2501 | depending on what data was sent |
| 01:03.58 | JeffM2501 | if the client mishandles it |
| 01:04.10 | soxs | would that but once in a while?, or all the time? |
| 01:04.11 | JeffM2501 | any bug dealing with message packing could crash the client when a message is sent |
| 01:04.16 | JeffM2501 | depends on what the bug is |
| 01:04.19 | JeffM2501 | it's impossible to say |
| 01:04.22 | soxs | could that data always be mishandled? |
| 01:04.30 | soxs | ah ok |
| 01:04.31 | JeffM2501 | is a newer car less likely to get into a car crash? ;) |
| 01:04.38 | soxs | it will be safer:) |
| 01:04.41 | soxs | usually |
| 01:04.48 | boxfresh | toyota.. |
| 01:04.49 | JeffM2501 | if the designer didn't mess up :) |
| 01:04.52 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 01:04.53 | soxs | yah. |
| 01:04.55 | JeffM2501 | mistakes happen |
| 01:04.56 | boxfresh | look point being, soxs |
| 01:04.58 | smoooth | agreed sometimes they are not, but unless we have proof one way or the other, which apparently no one is at the helm... the same assumption is new is better |
| 01:05.02 | boxfresh | i wasn't using 2.0.14 for some advantage |
| 01:05.09 | boxfresh | it just wasn't appealing to upgrade |
| 01:05.20 | boxfresh | since there wasn't exactly some kind of reason to |
| 01:05.25 | JeffM2501 | the newest client thing came aobut when there were bad bugs that gave advantages in the o0ld .2 and .4 |
| 01:05.29 | boxfresh | and since you will still find something phony about me, have at it:) |
| 01:05.32 | boxfresh | im on quols |
| 01:05.35 | soxs | boxfresh: i had a misunderstanding, i was under the assumption the 2.0.16 client had new changes that was user side. |
| 01:05.37 | JeffM2501 | .8 and .10 pretty much stablaized it |
| 01:05.53 | JeffM2501 | the rest were releases of need for some specific problem or another |
| 01:06.05 | soxs | ah ok. |
| 01:06.10 | JeffM2501 | it may have a few, but I doubt they would be of any importance to gameplay |
| 01:06.23 | soxs | how about 2.0.0 |
| 01:06.24 | JeffM2501 | we specificly DON'T make gameplay changes in compatable versions to keep them compatable |
| 01:06.25 | soxs | ? |
| 01:06.28 | JeffM2501 | that was buggy as hell |
| 01:06.30 | smoooth | the problem is, bzflag is one of the easiest cheated games on earth, and unforuntely people distribute those older clients that have illegal code in them... that is why having a newer one relieves the suspicion of cheating |
| 01:06.36 | JeffM2501 | .02 game out in like a week |
| 01:06.40 | soxs | so players using 2.0.0 shouldn't be? |
| 01:06.49 | JeffM2501 | smoooth, yeah still not sure why you all insist on playing ot over the internet |
| 01:06.56 | JeffM2501 | soxs, that's up to your leauge |
| 01:07.01 | smoooth | thats all we have jeff |
| 01:07.02 | soxs | what is your opinion? |
| 01:07.04 | JeffM2501 | but it would seem silly to be so |
| 01:07.08 | smoooth | i agree i sucks |
| 01:07.11 | smoooth | it* |
| 01:07.13 | soxs | ok JeffM2501: you have the facts. |
| 01:07.14 | JeffM2501 | smoooth, you are smart, make something better ;) |
| 01:07.14 | soxs | I don't |
| 01:07.18 | JeffM2501 | I have no facts |
| 01:07.24 | JeffM2501 | I have memories :) |
| 01:07.27 | smoooth | i dont mind dealing with this game, it's not too bad |
| 01:07.35 | soxs | so in your eyes 2.0.0 client shouldn't be allowed? |
| 01:07.38 | smoooth | but the problem is rampant cheating and other abuses |
| 01:07.42 | JeffM2501 | there have been enough "stable" releases in the 10+ range that anyone in there should be fine |
| 01:07.51 | smoooth | which we are trying to weed out with enforcement and detection |
| 01:07.59 | JeffM2501 | smoooth, yeah and making them report the current version ain't going to stop them ;) |
| 01:08.07 | smoooth | i agree jeff |
| 01:08.16 | smoooth | BUT, it helps remove some suspicion |
| 01:08.18 | JeffM2501 | all the cheat site show you how to mod the version |
| 01:08.19 | soxs | but those old cheat blogs |
| 01:08.22 | soxs | which are old clients |
| 01:08.27 | soxs | become not so useful. |
| 01:08.30 | smoooth | and forces people who dont know anything that have older clients, out. |
| 01:08.39 | soxs | when users are forced to update there clients. |
| 01:08.47 | JeffM2501 | yeah but you can't go all nazi on them for one version behind |
| 01:08.48 | smoooth | but some kids dont know how and just get code from their friends |
| 01:08.50 | JeffM2501 | if they have valid reasons |
| 01:08.54 | JeffM2501 | he had a very valid reason |
| 01:08.59 | JeffM2501 | one you could have duplicated |
| 01:09.03 | soxs | yes, that's understandable of course. |
| 01:09.10 | smoooth | it forces someone to have to recompile the cheat code,.. which is really easy but some kids dont know how |
| 01:09.22 | smoooth | and that in itself is more enforcement then none |
| 01:09.28 | soxs | JeffM2501: do you think it is a focus of concern of the leagues allowing a 2.0.0 client? |
| 01:09.46 | JeffM2501 | I think all leauges should get over the witch hunts |
| 01:10.08 | JeffM2501 | using single data points like that is a horrible way to manage anything |
| 01:10.15 | JeffM2501 | and will usualy fail more often then not |
| 01:10.15 | smoooth | but there are legitimate cheaters and subtle cheaters, and lag cheats, and they are real |
| 01:10.26 | smoooth | its emmensely easy to tell |
| 01:10.34 | JeffM2501 | excpt when you are wrong |
| 01:10.45 | smoooth | i am wrong sometimes, but many times i am right |
| 01:10.45 | JeffM2501 | do you have stats on how many times you are correced based just on the version number? |
| 01:10.52 | JeffM2501 | I'd like to see proof of that |
| 01:11.10 | smoooth | one thing was mentioned was jitter |
| 01:11.18 | JeffM2501 | I mean JUST version number |
| 01:11.26 | JeffM2501 | thinks the jitter calc is crap |
| 01:11.29 | smoooth | and reality with that is... sometime people have no jitter an entire match, right until a specific moment, that is easy to monitor and track |
| 01:11.43 | JeffM2501 | that is worthy of investigatyion, that I give you |
| 01:11.52 | JeffM2501 | but not just the version number |
| 01:11.52 | smoooth | that is clearly using jitter for an advantage.. and ive seen it on people for YEARS. |
| 01:12.00 | smoooth | the same ones.. and that is the easiest thing |
| 01:12.12 | JeffM2501 | so help fix the game :) |
| 01:12.40 | smoooth | plus we have a pretty extensive tracking network of people who gather information, conversations, people who have in the past downloaded code, we have that information |
| 01:12.59 | smoooth | then put that together with experience, and lots of them... its easy to tell |
| 01:13.02 | JeffM2501 | people who have had there phone tapped ;) |
| 01:13.16 | JeffM2501 | bzflags very own patriot act |
| 01:13.34 | JeffM2501 | "sir I'm going to have to touch your junk before I let you play" ;) |
| 01:13.34 | smoooth | just saying the info is out there |
| 01:13.37 | JeffM2501 | I know |
| 01:13.50 | smoooth | PLUS, some kids get on with obvious cheats.. then try to change their names |
| 01:13.55 | smoooth | we have long memories |
| 01:13.58 | JeffM2501 | I just find the fact that you go thu all this trouble for a silly lan game funny ;) |
| 01:14.10 | smoooth | i know, ive got nothing better to do :) |
| 01:14.16 | smoooth | for some reason i like it |
| 01:14.22 | JeffM2501 | you do, you just don't want to do the other things ;) |
| 01:14.30 | smoooth | what other things? |
| 01:14.32 | smoooth | the coding? |
| 01:14.39 | JeffM2501 | you are smart I've seen you code |
| 01:14.48 | smoooth | i dont code bzflag |
| 01:14.53 | smoooth | i really dont code anything.. |
| 01:14.53 | JeffM2501 | why not? |
| 01:15.00 | smoooth | i dont know |
| 01:15.11 | smoooth | lack of motivation i guess |
| 01:15.23 | JeffM2501 | but you are motivated to track people down |
| 01:15.42 | smoooth | its easy.. plus i actually dont do the work... people come to me :) |
| 01:15.50 | smoooth | i like playing :) |
| 01:16.03 | JeffM2501 | lazyness I can undertand |
| 01:16.06 | JeffM2501 | is totaly lazy |
| 01:16.14 | smoooth | heh |
| 01:16.29 | smoooth | you still working on your new game, how's it coming? |
| 01:17.17 | JeffM2501 | and soxs you really don't want my opinions on the game or leauges, I think it should all be scrapped and redone from the start |
| 01:17.57 | smoooth | i know, i dont disagree... but i guess where u and i differ, is that i am trying to make what we have work.. i guess holding on to the old until the new is available :) |
| 01:18.08 | soxs | same here smooth. |
| 01:18.10 | smoooth | which you are working on :;) |
| 01:18.12 | JeffM2501 | there is no new |
| 01:18.21 | JeffM2501 | not in the way you think of it |
| 01:18.26 | JeffM2501 | and I won't finish anything alone |
| 01:18.41 | soxs | JeffM2501: your input regarding the code is good. |
| 01:19.03 | JeffM2501 | don't trust anything bzflag does |
| 01:19.05 | soxs | you are a bzflag dev, so your input is useful |
| 01:19.07 | JeffM2501 | that's my input |
| 01:19.22 | soxs | but your input of the game, and leagues isn't useful:) |
| 01:19.43 | JeffM2501 | the game should have built in support for leauges |
| 01:19.53 | smoooth | true true |
| 01:20.08 | soxs | yah, well. "Shoulda/Coulda/Woulda" isn't going to happen on it's own. |
| 01:20.13 | JeffM2501 | but it can't untill it becomes a real internet game |
| 01:20.17 | JeffM2501 | and that's a rewrite |
| 01:20.41 | smoooth | what i am looking for is: The same look and feel of this game with a complete modern re-write |
| 01:20.52 | smoooth | tanks shooting is a timeless game and isn't going anywhere |
| 01:20.59 | soxs | i agree. |
| 01:21.09 | soxs | same look and feel, with a advanced engine, would be exceptional. |
| 01:21.11 | JeffM2501 | bzflag is a simple mod on top of the quake 3 engine |
| 01:21.13 | soxs | nothing more nothing less. |
| 01:21.14 | smoooth | the sooner someone can perfect it -- will have a corner on the marketer forever |
| 01:21.43 | smoooth | maybe someone should close source it |
| 01:21.47 | smoooth | may give more control |
| 01:21.57 | JeffM2501 | heh, nobody would buy it |
| 01:22.03 | JeffM2501 | bzflag was going to be a comercial game |
| 01:22.03 | smoooth | dont sell it |
| 01:22.05 | soxs | what's the cost? |
| 01:22.08 | smoooth | give it away |
| 01:22.18 | JeffM2501 | then who pays for the development, how does the closed source person get developers? |
| 01:22.38 | smoooth | make money after market, tshirts |
| 01:22.40 | smoooth | etc |
| 01:22.51 | smoooth | maybe some other pay leagues or |
| 01:22.53 | JeffM2501 | that would be a very weak investement proposal :) |
| 01:23.11 | smoooth | well it shouldnt be a super difficult game to make... |
| 01:23.23 | JeffM2501 | not for a couple people |
| 01:23.28 | smoooth | agreed its not a super money maker |
| 01:23.39 | soxs | make all users pay to join. |
| 01:23.42 | soxs | start from there. |
| 01:23.48 | soxs | a small fee is nothing. |
| 01:24.11 | JeffM2501 | if you are going to do that then just make the game subsription based or micro trans and run all your own servers |
| 01:24.11 | smoooth | keep it free, get it into the hands of everyone, then once they are hooked... then open the doors to other pay features.. and different things |
| 01:24.16 | JeffM2501 | like the MMOs do |
| 01:24.22 | JeffM2501 | yeah micro trans can work |
| 01:24.35 | JeffM2501 | let me know when you are done with it ;) |
| 01:24.46 | smoooth | heh |
| 01:25.28 | soxs | a small $5 sign up fee, |
| 01:25.29 | smoooth | yeah, i see your point.. im not beating anyone up to do it.. i am not motivated to do it myself.. just throwing the idea out if anyone wants to run with it :) |
| 01:25.46 | JeffM2501 | soxs, you'd have to d like 5 a month to be profitable |
| 01:25.59 | soxs | sounds good. |
| 01:26.10 | soxs | i'm in. |
| 01:26.21 | JeffM2501 | oh so you have a company that can pay the taxes then? |
| 01:26.49 | soxs | sponsors work. |
| 01:26.58 | JeffM2501 | you'd still need a company |
| 01:26.59 | smoooth | there are plenty of pay games out there... there must be a reason we're playing a free one :) |
| 01:27.10 | JeffM2501 | yeah most bzflag players are dirt poor |
| 01:27.16 | JeffM2501 | I can't even sell 50 shirts in a year |
| 01:27.21 | smoooth | heh |
| 01:28.04 | JeffM2501 | if you really wanted to monitize it you'd have to have a game that offered some more complex gameplay options to widen the base, but still have a "mode" that could be played like bzflag |
| 01:28.23 | JeffM2501 | like have heath and ammo, but servers where all tanks have inf ammo and one health etc... |
| 01:28.28 | smoooth | thats another reason, trying to pull from a market like bz which appeals to people that dont want/have to spend money.. no one wants to pay here thats why we are here, i think |
| 01:28.51 | soxs | maybe the shirts aren't appealing? |
| 01:28.58 | JeffM2501 | yeah that's where open source serves better, you get free developers |
| 01:29.02 | smoooth | yeah, they are brown soxs haha |
| 01:29.08 | JeffM2501 | soxs, maybe, we tried different designs |
| 01:29.10 | JeffM2501 | and colors |
| 01:29.15 | JeffM2501 | we've had 4 different printings |
| 01:29.25 | soxs | well, most are nerds ^^ |
| 01:29.31 | soxs | ask some styling people :) |
| 01:29.31 | smoooth | id buy one if they were simple and white. |
| 01:29.42 | smoooth | with the bzflag icon on it |
| 01:29.48 | JeffM2501 | you could pre order a white one right now I think |
| 01:29.51 | soxs | im just messing, you are trying.. |
| 01:29.59 | JeffM2501 | thinks he did white |
| 01:30.00 | soxs | can't knock you for it. |
| 01:30.15 | smoooth | :).. but i remember when we discussed before and like everyone wanted a different style shirt... hehe |
| 01:30.21 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 01:30.29 | JeffM2501 | it's hard when you can't buy hundreds of shirts |
| 01:30.41 | JeffM2501 | the bzflag community is realllly small compared to most other games. |
| 01:30.50 | smoooth | and sporatic |
| 01:30.58 | JeffM2501 | well it has low retention |
| 01:31.03 | smoooth | well said |
| 01:31.12 | smoooth | except the leagues.. thats where i enjoy the game |
| 01:31.31 | JeffM2501 | leauge play is probably less then 10% of the playerbase |
| 01:31.37 | smoooth | agreed |
| 01:31.48 | JeffM2501 | I mean how many unique leauge players are there? and how many of them play a month? |
| 01:31.50 | JeffM2501 | 100? |
| 01:32.01 | smoooth | maybe, and its been dwindling |
| 01:32.17 | JeffM2501 | you need a slick game with polish to keep people |
| 01:32.44 | smoooth | funny like no one plays the gu league during the year, then suddenly the riker cup comes along and like 50% of the league starts playing that week... then quit the week after the riker cup |
| 01:33.25 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 01:33.31 | smoooth | yeah you need polish, which i was trying to get spun up with the gu website design... but i dont know... just doest seem to happen |
| 01:33.31 | JeffM2501 | people like acheivements |
| 01:34.13 | JeffM2501 | polish is more then looks, it's user experience |
| 01:34.23 | smoooth | agreed |
| 01:34.27 | JeffM2501 | like in BZ, we have an arrow currsor but you can't click on anything |
| 01:34.36 | smoooth | hehe |
| 01:34.40 | JeffM2501 | somehow that makes sense? |
| 01:34.53 | smoooth | yeah thats a lacking feature |
| 01:35.02 | JeffM2501 | it's not even a feature, it's common sense |
| 01:35.06 | smoooth | true |
| 01:35.09 | JeffM2501 | the game makes it hard for people to play it |
| 01:35.18 | JeffM2501 | because it was designed by programers not designers |
| 01:35.22 | smoooth | you are correct sir |
| 01:35.26 | smoooth | the game doesnt make it easy |
| 01:35.51 | JeffM2501 | don't shoot people the same color as you, unless you are black.. then it's all good |
| 01:35.59 | JeffM2501 | how is a person suposed to learn that? |
| 01:36.48 | smoooth | yeah, maybe some text popping up on screen the first time you spwn |
| 01:37.08 | JeffM2501 | that'd be the bare minium programer way of solving it |
| 01:37.15 | smoooth | maybe tutorials section, about different styles of play and types of maps |
| 01:37.20 | JeffM2501 | people don't read in the middle of action |
| 01:37.35 | JeffM2501 | no you need a UI that clearly shows you who to friggin shoot ;) |
| 01:38.09 | smoooth | yeah, that could work too |
| 01:38.10 | JeffM2501 | mark frieldys in a way where it's obvious that you should not shoot those bastards |
| 01:38.26 | JeffM2501 | text and tutorials are language specific too |
| 01:38.31 | JeffM2501 | bzflag is played all over the world |
| 01:38.41 | smoooth | could do a couple languages |
| 01:38.48 | smoooth | probably get 95% |
| 01:38.58 | JeffM2501 | or could do a UI that dosn't need words and get every language ;) |
| 01:39.06 | JeffM2501 | and dosn't take focus off the game |
| 01:39.11 | JeffM2501 | these are things a designer does |
| 01:39.20 | JeffM2501 | designs features, dosn't just implement them |
| 01:39.35 | smoooth | i think some of the appeal to this game, is you have to figure it out... harder for average dumbass to start playing |
| 01:39.48 | smoooth | but it shrinks the playerbase |
| 01:39.54 | JeffM2501 | that will limit your playerbase by a HUGE ammount |
| 01:40.10 | JeffM2501 | then your project dies, like bzflag is |
| 01:40.24 | smoooth | i am happy appealing to a smaller niche group... |
| 01:40.36 | JeffM2501 | then you better be happy fixing the code yourself ;) |
| 01:40.42 | smoooth | but you cant measure success by numbers in this scenario |
| 01:41.01 | smoooth | i dont have any problem with the code to be honest |
| 01:41.05 | JeffM2501 | in open source the only measure of success in my book is if you can keep the proejct going |
| 01:41.10 | JeffM2501 | and bzflag can't |
| 01:41.12 | smoooth | i mean sure.. id like there to be server side collision detects |
| 01:41.15 | JeffM2501 | it can not adapt to a changing world |
| 01:41.24 | JeffM2501 | it's a deadend |
| 01:41.34 | smoooth | BUT, what we have is slavagable |
| 01:41.39 | JeffM2501 | not really |
| 01:41.43 | JeffM2501 | other then the concept |
| 01:41.47 | smoooth | i am happily playing in a league and there is decent activity |
| 01:41.52 | smoooth | that is success for me |
| 01:41.52 | JeffM2501 | there is nothing worth keeping out of bzflag itself |
| 01:42.06 | smoooth | individually but i understand that is not what makes developers keep developing |
| 01:42.20 | smoooth | i agree its bad, but it is... working |
| 01:42.27 | smoooth | we are playing.. we are having fun |
| 01:42.41 | smoooth | the correction for the poor coding is league enforcement |
| 01:42.44 | JeffM2501 | expcet that cheating is rampant and makes people make other's mad with accusations |
| 01:42.52 | JeffM2501 | maybe a win for you since you arn't on the accusation end |
| 01:43.13 | smoooth | perhaps |
| 01:43.30 | smoooth | there will be cheating accusations forever |
| 01:43.32 | JeffM2501 | you've got a situation where it's only fun for the old people, and you can't replace them |
| 01:43.37 | smoooth | especially with any opensource game |
| 01:43.48 | JeffM2501 | evently you will not have fun cus there will be no activity |
| 01:43.54 | JeffM2501 | you can protect an open source game |
| 01:44.01 | JeffM2501 | you have to design it properly |
| 01:44.15 | JeffM2501 | you may not be able to trust the code, but as a leauge you can trust a server and it's owner |
| 01:44.18 | smoooth | you cant even fully protect a closed source game |
| 01:44.23 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 01:44.40 | JeffM2501 | but you can protct it enough to where you can limit what a cheater can do to things that don't affect the game |
| 01:44.49 | smoooth | true server side stuff would be a huge improvement |
| 01:44.56 | JeffM2501 | to where the cheating influence dosn't affect the fun |
| 01:45.05 | smoooth | which is really all i think needs to be "absolutely" done to the game |
| 01:45.14 | JeffM2501 | quake world has been open source for AGES and people play it still |
| 01:45.21 | JeffM2501 | it won't happen in this codebase |
| 01:45.33 | smoooth | people are still playing here |
| 01:45.49 | smoooth | and will continue to play... basically bz has been dead for years and people knew it.. and still play |
| 01:45.49 | JeffM2501 | thinks the people that still play just like to argue on the internet ;) |
| 01:46.01 | JeffM2501 | people still play old games |
| 01:46.18 | JeffM2501 | and some people will play bzflag for a LONG while now |
| 01:46.25 | JeffM2501 | that I have no doubt about |
| 01:46.57 | smoooth | see i dont really care about the game itself.. the development of it.. or making it into something that everyone loves.. |
| 01:47.05 | JeffM2501 | goes back to seeing why his play button won't work |
| 01:47.20 | smoooth | there are plenty of other popular games people play that they pay money for and other |
| 01:47.36 | smoooth | all i care about is the league play, and it works moderately well |
| 01:47.39 | smoooth | for that purpose |
| 01:47.47 | JeffM2501 | you'll care when your ISP gives you an IPV6 address and you can't play anymore |
| 01:48.04 | smoooth | haha, then i might have to get off my ass and fix the code |
| 01:48.41 | smoooth | im not holding my breathe of ip6... i mean it will eventually get switched over.. but it's been talked about for two decades or more |
| 01:49.14 | smoooth | i remember discussing how to solve that issue in a college class... never a good solution discussed |
| 01:49.59 | smoooth | hah, another reason i dont code is i like arguing on the internet too much! |
| 01:50.06 | smoooth | consumes all my time |
| 01:50.41 | smoooth | so much so that i end up just talking to myself :) |
| 01:59.35 | JeffM2501 | doubts that most bzflag players would like the game he'd write |
| 02:14.44 | Packman | have you got a screenshot or website? |
| 02:15.00 | JeffM2501 | many |
| 02:15.12 | JeffM2501 | but it has nothing to do with looks |
| 02:17.53 | JeffM2501 | it's not hard to look better then bzflag ;) |
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| 04:52.52 | Constitution | JeffM2501: I did the OS X .10, .14, and .16 builds (there was no .12) |
| 04:53.18 | JeffM2501 | ahhh |
| 04:53.31 | Constitution | haven't heard anyone else complain of that issue, though |
| 04:53.36 | JeffM2501 | yeah nor had I |
| 04:53.54 | JeffM2501 | but since moving the exe into the other package that tells me it's SDL version |
| 04:54.14 | Constitution | did that fix the issue? I haven't read the whole backlog |
| 04:54.20 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 04:54.34 | Constitution | hm, could be then |
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| 07:27.29 | CIA-112 | BZFlag: 03Collins 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7395 10/w/Any_kind_of_a_Podiatrist%27s_Guidance_Located_on_Choosing_Shoes_and_boots: New page: The fashion industry before and also typically is their broad general rule to work with just about all trainer aficionados. Several fashionable [http://sinclaireville.weebly.com cheap uggs... |
| 07:59.42 | CIA-112 | BZFlag: 03Bullet Catcher 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7396 10/w/Any_kind_of_a_Podiatrist%27s_Guidance_Located_on_Choosing_Shoes_and_boots: spam |
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| 14:50.32 | CIA-112 | BZFlag: 03Blast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/delete: deleted "[[Any kind of a Podiatrist's Guidance Located on Choosing Shoes and boots]]": content was spam |
| 14:50.54 | CIA-112 | BZFlag: 03Blast 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/block: blocked [[User:Collins]] with an expiry time of 1 year (account creation disabled, e-mail blocked): Spamming links to external sites |
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| 17:09.07 | Guest951 | hi |
| 17:09.12 | Guest951 | hello world |
| 17:09.13 | JeffM2501 | hello |
| 17:10.00 | Guest951 | Hi Jeff i found some music some kid has done using the bzflag soundfx think its quiet good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_dIy6mFIJ0 |
| 17:10.17 | JeffM2501 | yeah you posted it on the forums |
| 17:10.45 | Guest951 | :) |
| 17:11.17 | Guest951 | is everybpdy listed on the right actually here ? |
| 17:11.28 | JeffM2501 | yes and no |
| 17:11.31 | JeffM2501 | they are logged in |
| 17:11.40 | JeffM2501 | but that dosn't mean they are paying attention |
| 17:11.57 | Guest951 | gotya |
| 17:13.35 | Guest951 | do you no if there is anything over the horizon for map editors |
| 17:13.49 | JeffM2501 | bzworkbench is the current editor project |
| 17:15.35 | Guest951 | thanks, last time i checked that was being devloped, can u test a map within the editor |
| 17:15.49 | JeffM2501 | it is still being developed |
| 17:15.54 | JeffM2501 | nothing in bz is ever finsihed |
| 17:15.59 | JeffM2501 | and no, it does not have a test mode |
| 17:16.04 | JeffM2501 | you run a server to test a map |
| 17:16.36 | Guest951 | :) nothing is ever finished, true. |
| 17:17.36 | Guest951 | i had the bztest server working for a while, but now its not working think i need to reinstall. i think its really hard to make a good map, hats of to thise that do |
| 17:19.08 | Guest951 | well jeff nice speaking, thanks for all the hard work u all putin behind the scenes |
| 17:19.14 | Guest951 | bye |
| 17:19.17 | JeffM2501 | there is no work |
| 17:19.21 | JeffM2501 | bzflag development is dead |
| 17:19.37 | Guest951 | answering questions etc in forums |
| 17:19.46 | JeffM2501 | that ain't hard ;) |
| 17:19.56 | Guest951 | :) |
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| 18:25.06 | KTL | that song is fun |
| 18:25.35 | KTL | is that the current quality of automatically generated singing voices? |
| 18:30.27 | JeffM2501 | no the professional stuff is much better |
| 18:30.41 | JeffM2501 | tho most of it is done in japan |
| 18:30.48 | JeffM2501 | the virutal pop stars are huge there |
| 18:31.26 | KTL | what was her name ... kimiko ... mmm |
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| 18:31.38 | JeffM2501 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTXO7KGHtjI |
| 18:32.45 | KTL | so practical to have a virtual popstar, you can replace the singer, you dont have to worry about the health of the idol, he/she can have multiple presentations at several places at the same moment |
| 18:33.03 | JeffM2501 | and she dosn't get paid ;) |
| 18:33.11 | KTL | very important |
| 18:33.14 | JeffM2501 | or make a sex tape |
| 18:34.19 | JeffM2501 | the lyrics are well thought out on the bzflag song tho |
| 18:34.59 | KTL | slightly wussy, he/she is just driving around zoned |
| 18:35.27 | JeffM2501 | I belive that is the point, saying to escape the world go to your own private "zone" |
| 18:39.13 | KTL | bzw has nowhere any option to add sounds right? |
| 18:39.18 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 18:39.30 | JeffM2501 | there is a message the server can send to play a sound, but it crashes many clients |
| 18:39.45 | JeffM2501 | there is more support for that in trunk |
| 18:40.14 | JeffM2501 | the client really needs a virtual file system to handle any kind of media file, not just downloaded textures |
| 18:42.25 | mrapple | JeffM2501: haha ive heard that song, but not seen the live hologram concert. epic. |
| 18:42.34 | mrapple | have you shown that to blast? he'd die. |
| 18:42.40 | JeffM2501 | I doubt that |
| 18:42.50 | JeffM2501 | it's just a glass wall and a projector |
| 18:43.12 | KTL | the hd-quality shows the raw resolution of the hologram |
| 18:43.12 | JeffM2501 | you kids and your missuse of the word epic |
| 18:43.17 | JeffM2501 | blames blizard |
| 18:43.25 | JeffM2501 | it's not a hologram |
| 18:43.32 | JeffM2501 | it's more like a hud |
| 18:43.37 | JeffM2501 | it's a 2d projection |
| 18:43.50 | mrapple | well it looks cool :P |
| 18:43.55 | JeffM2501 | onto half silvered mirror |
| 18:44.00 | JeffM2501 | ohh yeah it's a neat effect |
| 18:44.07 | JeffM2501 | been used for ages |
| 18:44.19 | JeffM2501 | haunted mansion at disney is mostly that kinda stuff |
| 18:45.37 | mrapple | why cant we have concerts like that in the us |
| 18:45.53 | JeffM2501 | we will in abou 3 years |
| 18:46.07 | JeffM2501 | the US isn't as pedo as Japan is |
| 18:46.45 | JeffM2501 | many of the trance, house, and techno concerts use similar stuff |
| 18:46.51 | JeffM2501 | not for the main actor but for effects |
| 18:48.46 | JeffM2501 | just be glad she dosn't bsod |
| 18:49.06 | JeffM2501 | tho it's not really a concert it's more like a movie |
| 18:49.18 | mrapple | heh |
| 18:49.21 | mrapple | its still pretty awesome |
| 18:49.34 | JeffM2501 | from an entertainment standpoint defenatly |
| 18:51.46 | JeffM2501 | even the correct use of the word, inspiring awe :) |
| 18:53.19 | mrapple | haha this is ssweeet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IICGkOtJ9E |
| 18:56.47 | KTL | and it goes on |
| 18:57.01 | KTL | making that must have been a lot of fun |
| 19:00.43 | mrapple | this one has some cool stuff -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0XKmU5hF5s |
| 19:01.46 | KTL | next weekend i go to a lightshow in ghent, i don't think it will be anywhere near this fun |
| 19:03.45 | mrapple | one thing ive been meaning to test out is motion tracking in after effects |
| 19:03.49 | mrapple | could probably do some wicked stuff |
| 19:04.27 | KTL | ? something that gives feedback on people walking around or something/ |
| 19:04.28 | KTL | ? |
| 19:04.55 | mrapple | example, shoot a video of my house, moving the camera around a bit and stuff so it looks more realistic |
| 19:05.04 | KTL | hey that last url was a dutch company ... i might have a chance of seeing their stuff next week! |
| 19:05.15 | mrapple | then could track stuff onto the house |
| 19:06.21 | KTL | doesnt see the idea yet |
| 19:07.03 | mrapple | heres a 3d cube tracked on a table http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IZ8UW5eeq8 |
| 19:07.42 | KTL | ah right, a easy way to fill the bathtube with gold and prostitutes |
| 19:08.53 | mrapple | heh |
| 19:09.02 | mrapple | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ7mlOXeSaI |
| 19:10.13 | mrapple | also this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ5SGiQ2HCo |
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| 19:32.21 | AAA_awright | mrapple: You do camera tracking or other visual effects? |
| 19:35.45 | mrapple | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bsggJWKdJc |
| 19:36.23 | mrapple | i had to throw that together quickly because we were going out of town |
| 19:36.43 | mrapple | i wanted to track the titles and stuff onto objects but didnt have enough time |
| 19:36.51 | JeffM2501 | is that masking tape? |
| 19:37.17 | mrapple | yes it is |
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| 20:31.04 | KTL | those drawinfos with several lods ... i have the impression that they dont always give the right lod, i got cases where it seems to depend on what side of the object i am |
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| 20:39.04 | trepan | KTL: could it be that your drawInfo geometry is offset from its origin? |
| 20:40.00 | trepan | also, are you using a bzfs executable that's SVN r21345 or later? |
| 20:44.52 | KTL | 2.0.16.20100405-DEVEL-linux-gnu-SDL |
| 20:45.14 | KTL | that particular lod was indeed far away from its origing |
| 20:45.18 | KTL | origin* |
| 20:46.04 | KTL | the extents were set though |
| 20:47.08 | KTL | so i ... have to somehow build them around the origin and later on move them? |
| 20:47.33 | KTL | i can do that ... seems hackish :D |
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| 20:53.36 | *** join/#bzflag R0b0t1 (~Enigma@unaffiliated/r0b0t1) |
| 20:53.41 | R0b0t1 | et |
| 20:54.03 | KTL | home |
| 21:05.37 | trepan | 1. the drawInfo meshe's origin |
| 21:05.45 | trepan | 2. what particular lod? |
| 21:06.00 | trepan | pastebin is your best bet ;) |
| 21:15.19 | CIA-112 | BZFlag: 0399.119.88.105 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7397 10/w/Karma_System: /* History */ tiny misspelling error |
| 21:25.11 | CIA-112 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21353 10/branches/v2_0branch/bzflag/ (include/global.h src/bzflag/playing.cxx): Fix compile failures when configured with --disable-robots. |
| 21:31.55 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501) |
| 21:31.55 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 21:43.11 | delusional | KTL, might be sphere |
| 21:43.44 | delusional | or extents |
| 21:45.00 | delusional | the map you gave me has extents, but no sphere |
| 21:46.28 | delusional | i would suggest, as an easy test, comment out both extents and sphere |
| 22:02.50 | KTL | commenting out all the extents helped ... |
| 22:03.52 | KTL | (using pastebin here is tedious, i dont know how to find my test fractal back in the bzw :D and it is too large to copy paste and so on) |
| 22:13.43 | delusional | yeah, let bzfs calculate the sphere and extents. |
| 22:14.00 | delusional | i dont know why, but it works |
| 22:14.11 | delusional | good enough for me. |
| 22:51.34 | BulletCatcher | In trunk, bzrobots and (traditional) robots are completely different things, so it could make sense to compile with the former but not the latter. Correct? |
| 22:52.26 | BulletCatcher | If so, then there are some missing #ifdef ROBOT lines in botplaying.cxx . |
| 22:54.59 | JeffM2501 | there are 3 seperate robot systems |
| 22:55.13 | JeffM2501 | autopilot, solo robots and bzrobots |
| 22:55.21 | JeffM2501 | bzrobots is a seperate executable that is built |
| 22:55.37 | JeffM2501 | autopilot and solo are built into the client and always should be |
| 22:55.52 | JeffM2501 | I don't belive disable robots means solo robots |
| 22:55.57 | JeffM2501 | if it does that'd be odd |
| 22:56.37 | JeffM2501 | I belive the conig stuff refers to the bzrobots executable, just like disable client dosn't build the client |
| 22:58.34 | JeffM2501 | it would be easy to see if you look at the history of the config file, if the option was added after bzrobots was created then it means bzrobots |
| 22:58.57 | BulletCatcher | Trunk configure has both --disable-bzrobots and --disable-robots, while branch has only --disable-robots . |
| 22:59.20 | JeffM2501 | what code does disable robots disable? |
| 22:59.45 | BulletCatcher | Seems to be solo robots. |
| 22:59.56 | JeffM2501 | that sounds like a pointless flag |
| 23:00.06 | JeffM2501 | there is no advantage to building a client that can't do -solo |
| 23:00.14 | JeffM2501 | other then maybe a small size diff |
| 23:00.35 | JeffM2501 | yank it ;) |
| 23:00.39 | BulletCatcher | Could it date back to when the solo robots were experimental? |
| 23:00.45 | JeffM2501 | maybe |
| 23:00.51 | *** part/#bzflag kierra_away (~jolie@unaffiliated/kierra) |
| 23:00.54 | JeffM2501 | but still they are enabled with a command line flag |
| 23:01.03 | JeffM2501 | so it's not like they would "accedentaly" turn on |
| 23:02.25 | JeffM2501 | I still can't think of a use case where we need to keep that option |
| 23:02.32 | JeffM2501 | would it make the config simpler if it was removed? |
| 23:03.16 | BulletCatcher | Probably, but at this point I think it will be easier to make --disable-robots work correctly than to yank it. |
| 23:03.27 | JeffM2501 | nobody will use it |
| 23:03.30 | JeffM2501 | but whatever is simpler |
| 23:27.50 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (~js@bzflag/player/ThinkDifferent) |