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| 02:39.04 | Packman | How can I predict precisely how long a laser shot will go? |
| 02:39.33 | Murielle | you ask a lot of question Packman :( |
| 02:39.57 | Packman | I am doing a lot of stuff :P |
| 02:54.33 | AAA_awright | Packman: It's defined in the global variable |
| 02:55.11 | Packman | which combination? |
| 03:05.46 | trepan | there's also a maximum segment count, if you want to be precise) |
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| 03:07.38 | Packman | ah yes, but for a single segment? |
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| 18:50.43 | alezakos | hey |
| 18:51.06 | alezakos | tank buster22 suggest something that has been suggested 10000 times before |
| 18:51.28 | alezakos | it's called "moving turret" |
| 18:51.55 | TankBuster22 | LOL no answers |
| 18:52.17 | TankBuster22 | no game support :-( |
| 18:52.24 | alezakos | no there is support |
| 18:52.32 | TankBuster22 | there isn't |
| 18:52.37 | TankBuster22 | no one answered |
| 18:52.40 | alezakos | ... |
| 18:55.45 | joevano | that is a contious development decision... NO |
| 18:56.16 | TankBuster22 | WHY? |
| 18:56.46 | alezakos | "every single tankgame has a moving turret" says TankBuster22 |
| 18:57.14 | joevano | to keep it simple.. and go play them or fork the game and add them yourself |
| 18:57.34 | alezakos | THEN WHY CALL IT A "TANK SIMULATION" GAME? |
| 18:57.52 | joevano | this is a simple tank game that anyone can play |
| 18:58.06 | joevano | it is not a tank simulation... tanks dont fly |
| 18:58.06 | TankBuster22 | for example, in bad company the tanks have turrets |
| 18:58.11 | joevano | or jump |
| 18:58.20 | alezakos | no it's a "tank simulation" game, go sourceforge |
| 18:58.20 | TankBuster22 | i agree that it's not a tank simulation |
| 18:59.08 | joevano | then we choose NOT to support turning turrets |
| 18:59.10 | TankBuster22 | but arcade games that are easy to play have turrrets |
| 18:59.30 | alezakos | then don't call it "tank simulation" |
| 18:59.34 | joevano | ours is easy to play and does not... different design decisions |
| 18:59.48 | TankBuster22 | ok |
| 18:59.57 | joevano | we will call it what we want... your choice is to play or not |
| 19:00.18 | alezakos | you will call it a tank simulation even though it isn't? |
| 19:00.35 | alezakos | OpenSource OpenGL Multiplayer Multiplatform Battle Zone capture the Flag. 3D first person Tank Simulation. |
| 19:00.36 | joevano | sure... why not |
| 19:01.04 | alezakos | huh? |
| 19:01.07 | joevano | it is a simulation... we just do not model a turning tank turret |
| 19:01.17 | alezakos | real tanks don't FLY |
| 19:01.22 | alezakos | you said that |
| 19:01.29 | joevano | right... so get over it |
| 19:01.42 | alezakos | so it is NOT a simulation |
| 19:01.48 | kierra | semantics |
| 19:01.49 | alezakos | [21:01] <+joevano> it is a simulation... we just do not model a turning tank turret |
| 19:02.37 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o joevano] by ChanServ |
| 19:02.38 | TankBuster22 | i agree that the game is simple the way it is made |
| 19:02.58 | alezakos | TankBuster22: you liked a turret, didn't you? |
| 19:03.45 | joevano | the decision was made long ago... the turret will not move, create a different game based on our code if you like |
| 19:03.53 | bryjen | its not a high fidelity simulation |
| 19:04.01 | joevano | it is open-source... fork away |
| 19:04.04 | alezakos | then don't call it "tank simulation" |
| 19:05.15 | alezakos | lol, he's so angry |
| 19:05.30 | kierra | answer not a fool according to his folly :) |
| 19:05.32 | joevano | who is angry? |
| 19:05.41 | alezakos | "moving boxes" said tankbuster22 |
| 19:07.05 | JefferyM | bzflag is not a tank sim ;) |
| 19:07.12 | JefferyM | you are more then welcome to turn it into one |
| 19:07.20 | alezakos | I think I've disscused that before |
| 19:07.31 | alezakos | "OpenSource OpenGL Multiplayer Multiplatform Battle Zone capture the Flag. 3D first person Tank Simulation. " |
| 19:07.36 | JefferyM | would love to see a more advanced game based on it |
| 19:07.54 | JefferyM | whoever wrote that was wrong then |
| 19:08.00 | alezakos | doesn't know C++ |
| 19:08.01 | JefferyM | tank game is more like it |
| 19:08.04 | JefferyM | then learn |
| 19:08.12 | JefferyM | or write one in whatever language you know ;) |
| 19:08.20 | alezakos | PHP? |
| 19:08.22 | alezakos | lol |
| 19:08.31 | JefferyM | not the best choice, but I'm sure it could be done |
| 19:08.34 | bryjen | "simulation" in PC gaming has a connotation of highly detailed true-to-life recreation, like as in flight simulators |
| 19:08.57 | JefferyM | yeah I don't think sim should be there, blast007 should change it |
| 19:08.59 | alezakos | highly detailed wouldn't include flying tanks. |
| 19:09.10 | alezakos | someone said tanks were shooting waterballs |
| 19:09.32 | bryjen | bzflag is not simulation in that sense |
| 19:09.43 | alezakos | NO IT'S NOT |
| 19:12.34 | alezakos | "I think your game is great, but I believe you could make a mod(ification) that allows the players try the turret and discuss their opinions" |
| 19:13.07 | JefferyM | thatd be another game |
| 19:13.21 | alezakos | BZTFlag |
| 19:13.59 | JefferyM | I'd take the BZ and flag out of it |
| 19:14.02 | JefferyM | give it a better name |
| 19:14.06 | alezakos | T |
| 19:14.25 | trepan | sillytankishshootemupery |
| 19:14.26 | JefferyM | give it an exciting name |
| 19:14.29 | JefferyM | sure |
| 19:14.30 | alezakos | What happened with BZFlag 3.0? |
| 19:14.34 | JefferyM | it's in svn |
| 19:14.37 | JefferyM | sitting there |
| 19:14.43 | alezakos | I think it's 2.99 |
| 19:14.46 | alezakos | bzrd |
| 19:14.54 | JefferyM | yeah that's the verison for the cod |
| 19:14.59 | JefferyM | untill it gets released |
| 19:15.11 | alezakos | someone said it's "dead" |
| 19:15.24 | JefferyM | it is not as active as it could be |
| 19:15.37 | trepan | or, it's dead |
| 19:15.46 | alezakos | ... |
| 19:15.49 | alezakos | !? |
| 19:15.52 | JefferyM | oh it died a while ago |
| 19:15.58 | JefferyM | few just realise it |
| 19:16.16 | kierra | bummer |
| 19:16.24 | alezakos | Okay, so there is time for some coding, isn't there? |
| 19:16.42 | TASAIRES | there any BZFlag 3.0 Final released?¿ |
| 19:16.43 | trepan | that depends, how long do you have left? |
| 19:16.45 | JefferyM | there is always time, there does not seem to be people or desire |
| 19:16.58 | JefferyM | TASAIRES, what does the website say? |
| 19:19.04 | bryjen | ~dict 3 moribund |
| 19:19.19 | joevano | exactly |
| 19:19.31 | alezakos | why not make ROGER serverside? |
| 19:19.47 | joevano | are you voluntering? |
| 19:19.59 | alezakos | me? |
| 19:20.05 | joevano | yep... |
| 19:20.17 | alezakos | erm... after 2 years... |
| 19:20.35 | TASAIRES | See on NET -> "Until this happens, I'm going to regard 3.0 as vaporware. The really cool new version that would improve everything. The really cool new version that wasn't actually going to be released." |
| 19:20.56 | joevano | TASAIRES: exactly |
| 19:21.08 | TASAIRES | see and Watch on NET -> "BZFlag 3.0 = vaporware " |
| 19:21.15 | joevano | agreed |
| 19:21.44 | alezakos | Vaporware is a word used to describe products, usually computer hardware or software, that were not released on the date announced by their developer, or that were announced months or years before their release. |
| 19:21.50 | joevano | without active development it will never be released |
| 19:22.29 | JefferyM | it's not vaporware, you can see it and use it |
| 19:22.37 | alezakos | not 3, 2.99 |
| 19:22.37 | JefferyM | we just have not released it as binarys |
| 19:22.38 | trepan | i say release it as is ... bugs and all |
| 19:22.40 | joevano | we have never announced a date or guarantee that 3.0 would be released |
| 19:22.50 | trepan | then you can say that 3.0 was released, and just not have anyone use it :) |
| 19:22.58 | alezakos | it's 2.99 |
| 19:23.11 | JefferyM | so pretend it's 3 |
| 19:23.21 | JefferyM | if we released 3 today it would just be 2.99 with a new number |
| 19:23.23 | alezakos | pretending game x2 |
| 19:23.30 | trepan | 0.999.... == 1 |
| 19:23.36 | trepan | we ran out of chars |
| 19:23.41 | JefferyM | yeah just round ;) |
| 19:23.47 | alezakos | lol |
| 19:24.12 | alezakos | 0.99=/ 0.99999999999999999999999 |
| 19:24.13 | alezakos | ... |
| 19:24.28 | JefferyM | nobody cares anymore |
| 19:24.43 | JefferyM | so unless someone does care, it won't be pushed out as a release |
| 19:24.51 | JefferyM | that is the main reason it's dead |
| 19:24.54 | JefferyM | because nobody cares |
| 19:24.56 | alezakos | so I don't need to rush for my BZBook |
| 19:25.13 | trepan | ad because the code got to broked to be released |
| 19:25.14 | trepan | *and |
| 19:25.22 | trepan | +*too ;) |
| 19:25.39 | JefferyM | it stayed borked because nobody cared |
| 19:25.52 | trepan | it got broked for lack of care |
| 19:26.00 | JefferyM | indeed |
| 19:26.25 | trepan | someone was talking about doing bz as an engine mod |
| 19:26.28 | JefferyM | lots of not caring to go arround |
| 19:26.36 | trepan | probably better bang for you buck that way |
| 19:27.32 | trepan | cube/ut/q3... either would probably be malleable enough |
| 19:27.40 | JefferyM | very much so |
| 19:28.25 | trepan | although cube would buy you nothing for cheat checks, it trusts its clients iirc |
| 19:28.37 | trepan | cube/sauerbraten/... derivatives |
| 19:28.49 | JefferyM | make it a quake3 mod ;) |
| 19:29.11 | trepan | ya, q3 was mentionned |
| 19:29.20 | trepan | open source does make it easier |
| 19:29.38 | JefferyM | wonder how the engine for enemy teritory is |
| 19:30.21 | trepan | ya, i pulled down the code for that and ReturnToCastleWolfenstein a while ago, never bothered to look through them |
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| 20:02.39 | blast007 | there now it says "tank game" ;) |
| 20:03.10 | kierra | they'll find something else to complain about :) |
| 20:03.30 | kierra | i'll wager :) |
| 20:03.38 | blast007 | "It's not a tank, it's a tank-plane hybrid!" |
| 20:03.51 | kierra | good for you!!!! |
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| 20:05.53 | blast007 | oooo, there's an "inactive" development status ;) |
| 20:10.52 | BulletCatcher | There is nothing wrong with calling BZFlag a tank simulation. |
| 20:11.11 | BulletCatcher | Like all simulators, there are aspects of the real thing that are not simulated. |
| 20:11.11 | BulletCatcher | Our simulated tanks don't have 3-man crews, and they don't have rotating turrets either. |
| 20:11.34 | blast007 | shrugs |
| 20:11.42 | BulletCatcher | Our lack of rotating turrets just happens to resemble the original tanks of World War I. |
| 20:11.51 | blast007 | the description could be rewritten completely |
| 20:12.07 | kierra | they were majoring on minors, imnsho |
| 20:12.16 | kierra | sraining at gnats |
| 20:12.57 | JefferyM | gnats are all that is left ;) |
| 20:14.49 | blast007 | hehe |
| 20:15.17 | kierra | THAT is a shame :( |
| 20:15.55 | jh` | so, will 3.0 be released ever? |
| 20:16.20 | jh` | or is it over:P |
| 20:17.50 | blast007 | jh`: not like there's any work being done on it |
| 20:18.09 | jh` | ok |
| 20:18.19 | kierra | most of the devs have gotten discouraged over too tight a control |
| 20:18.30 | BulletCatcher | The developers could suddenly decide to resume working on it, but that isn't very likely. |
| 20:18.41 | jh` | control? |
| 20:19.09 | kierra | at the risk of TimRikers wrath, /me looks in his direction |
| 20:19.16 | kierra | :) |
| 20:19.23 | jh` | hm |
| 20:19.39 | kierra | correct me if I'm wrong |
| 20:19.51 | jh` | why does he care if he doesnt even dev himself |
| 20:20.13 | kierra | it's his baby |
| 20:20.17 | BulletCatcher | I don't recall any developers openly disagreeing with any of Tim's general restrictions. |
| 20:21.28 | jh` | what are the restrictions then |
| 20:21.58 | BulletCatcher | Fixed turrets, for one. There is a wiki page that has more. |
| 20:22.29 | BulletCatcher | Another is that tanks are always horizontal, with no aiming up or down. |
| 20:23.11 | kierra | what about graphic changes |
| 20:23.13 | jh` | well, it would change game a lot |
| 20:23.19 | kierra | updating the look |
| 20:23.30 | kierra | I've seen some nice graphics from trepan |
| 20:24.05 | blast007 | it's not really the restrictions that are the issue (cuz that generally *reduces* how much work we have to do - "I want rotating turrents!" "Sorry, can't.") |
| 20:24.11 | blast007 | turrets* |
| 20:24.11 | jh` | well, mostly play on league maps so aiming up or down would be weird |
| 20:24.27 | BulletCatcher | 2.99 makes it possible (or easier, at least) to change tank skins. |
| 20:24.42 | jh` | that would be cool |
| 20:28.10 | jh` | so how far is it from release? next bz version |
| 20:28.57 | blast007 | infinitely, since nobody is working on it ;) |
| 20:29.14 | jh` | ok |
| 20:36.04 | jh` | well, its fine how it is, cept i think its easy to cheat |
| 20:39.53 | joevano | 3.0 won't change that |
| 20:40.05 | joevano | if it ever is released |
| 20:40.43 | BulletCatcher | One of the design goals for 3.0 was to eliminate certain types of cheating, but we have been unable to get those changes working correctly. |
| 20:41.03 | jh` | server side changes |
| 20:42.27 | BulletCatcher | Yes. For example, hits would be detected on the server to prevent "god mode" cheating. |
| 20:42.44 | jh` | or thin tank? |
| 20:42.50 | BulletCatcher | That too. |
| 20:43.28 | jh` | so why wont it work? |
| 20:44.12 | jh` | too hard to change things on server side? |
| 20:44.47 | jh` | from client |
| 20:46.06 | BulletCatcher | Yes. Essentially it is too hard for us to make that change. There were 2 or 3 major efforts, neither of which produced useable results. |
| 20:46.42 | jh` | hard to change current code |
| 20:46.57 | BulletCatcher | In this case, it definitely is. |
| 20:47.55 | jh` | i know the feeling |
| 20:52.37 | jh` | thought i have done php mostly |
| 20:53.45 | jh` | but its hard to change a process in a large codebase |
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| 20:59.07 | jh` | in your(dev)experience, how far is php from c++ for example |
| 21:01.57 | jh` | mostly i mean user interface... |
| 21:19.14 | BulletCatcher | PHP and c++ code look very different, but they both use many of the same underlying programming concepts. |
| 21:19.19 | BulletCatcher | The object oriented features of c++ are very powerful (probably much more than PHP). |
| 21:20.10 | BulletCatcher | PHP is much better for creating web pages, because that is what it is designed for. |
| 21:20.44 | AAA_awright | And ECMAScript is superior to all |
| 21:21.32 | jh` | php is bad for complicated user interfaces |
| 21:22.05 | BulletCatcher | Every language has strengths and weaknesses. None is superior to others for all purposes. |
| 21:25.18 | jh` | and btw...whats your experience in real life coding? bulletcatcher |
| 21:27.56 | BulletCatcher | I have many years of experience, including languages such as Perl, C, LISP, Ada, and assembly. |
| 21:28.01 | BulletCatcher | My first significant exposure to c++ was when I started contributing to BZFlag almost 3 years ago. |
| 21:28.28 | BulletCatcher | I still get hung up on some of the ways we use object oriented features of c++. |
| 21:29.01 | jh` | so you code for money? |
| 21:29.11 | jh` | also |
| 21:30.00 | BulletCatcher | I have been a full-time system administrator for about 20 years. |
| 21:30.02 | BulletCatcher | Most of my programming these days is to automate what I do. I usually use Perl. |
| 21:31.01 | jh` | 20 years? even internet is not that old:P |
| 21:31.50 | BulletCatcher | I got my first e-mail address around 1983. |
| 21:31.59 | jh` | lol |
| 21:32.06 | jh` | really? |
| 21:33.11 | BulletCatcher | Yup. This was before domain names were invented, so it was just user@hostname (no dots). |
| 21:33.35 | jh` | whatever |
| 21:33.51 | AAA_awright | Had to maintain a hosts file and everything? |
| 21:33.55 | BulletCatcher | You kids just don't know how easy you have it. :-) |
| 21:34.15 | mrapple | One addition onto the earlier discussion of forking the game ... there is xynilex. https://github.com/Xynilex/Xynilex |
| 21:34.59 | BulletCatcher | The complete hosts file for all of the ARPANET then was just a couple of pages long. I remember seeing it printed and posted on the side of the computer. |
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| 21:37.50 | AAA_awright | Ahh, the joy of not having to worry about scaling |
| 21:40.39 | BulletCatcher | Well, even at that size it was obvious that scaling would soon be a problem. |
| 21:40.43 | BulletCatcher | DNS was introduced in 1986, IIRC, and the standard mechanism for distributing the official hosts file was turned off in 1989 or 1990. |
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| 22:16.21 | JefferyM | kierra, I have never worried about what TimRiker thought ;) |
| 22:16.34 | JefferyM | he origonaly said that nobody would use the API or plug-ins |
| 22:17.20 | kierra | :) |
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