| 00:00.07 | Constitution | sounds great... now how much of that is there enough development momentum to change? :) |
| 00:00.17 | JeffM | finish 3 first |
| 00:00.33 | JeffM | the current SDL distro system has worked for nearly a decade |
| 00:00.37 | JeffM | ship then change it for the better |
| 00:01.15 | JeffM | you yourself proved there is no problem buiding with the current system |
| 00:01.22 | JeffM | if anything it may just need some clearer docs |
| 00:01.49 | JeffM | I thought they were clear enough before, and they may be |
| 00:02.08 | JeffM | this would not be the first time mrapple has jumped guns and flounderd at a propblem a bit ;) |
| 00:02.25 | mrapple | o.O |
| 00:02.28 | Constitution | in his defense, the configure script does say that SDL 1.3 is required, which is incorrect (it appears SDL 1.3 actually breaks it) |
| 00:02.33 | JeffM | sorry but it's true man :) |
| 00:02.38 | JeffM | so we fix the script |
| 00:02.44 | JeffM | sounds like a trival task |
| 00:02.52 | smoooth | I don't like these "i'm an exception" platforms.. seems to be the general trend, extending specialized support for obsolete ways of older players, instead of making them join/upgrade to play on the same "field" as the rest of us |
| 00:03.15 | JeffM | smoooth: it's always a ballance |
| 00:03.20 | JeffM | maint cost vs player base |
| 00:03.31 | Constitution | smoooth: someone who spent $3,000 on a G5 three or four years ago isn't going to like that argument |
| 00:03.33 | smoooth | agreed, sounds like only 1 on PPC |
| 00:03.38 | JeffM | V3 would be a good time to get rid of PPC |
| 00:03.53 | JeffM | Constitution: well that was there own stupid fault |
| 00:04.07 | JeffM | it happens in games all the time |
| 00:04.09 | JeffM | with shaders |
| 00:04.28 | JeffM | spend a grand on a kick ass video card only to not be able to use it because you need the next shader level |
| 00:04.39 | JeffM | 4 years a very long time in gaming systems |
| 00:04.55 | DTRemenak | if someone wants to spend time supporting $platform, no reason to stop them. |
| 00:04.58 | JeffM | and it's not like those people can't build |
| 00:05.11 | JeffM | yeah we won't stop them from working, we just won't ship em |
| 00:05.23 | JeffM | old windows is in that camp 2 |
| 00:05.30 | DTRemenak | if someone wants to build and ship packages for $platform, no reason to stop them either |
| 00:05.36 | JeffM | bz will probably work on 9x, we just don't make it |
| 00:05.48 | Constitution | graduating one shader level is one thing, spending the time and effort to correctly build the source (which otherwise works) on a specific platform, is another |
| 00:05.58 | JeffM | curses the gods for leaving the easyouts at work...... |
| 00:06.00 | DTRemenak | and if that someone is Constitution, I have no problem with that either. |
| 00:06.14 | JeffM | yeah if you want to do it great |
| 00:06.28 | DTRemenak | so there's no pressure to drop PPC...just no pressure to make sure it gets done either |
| 00:06.30 | JeffM | I just think you should not punish the intel people for it |
| 00:06.34 | blast007 | JeffM: just couldn't be built with VC9 - the runtimes need at least 2000 (and maybe some SP level) |
| 00:06.46 | JeffM | blast007: yp |
| 00:06.48 | JeffM | yup |
| 00:06.58 | DTRemenak | if someone wanted to make it work on 9x they could too. I did for a long time. |
| 00:07.20 | JeffM | there may be one API call in trunk that wasn't implemented untill 2k |
| 00:07.22 | DTRemenak | only got a couple complaints when I stopped |
| 00:07.28 | mrapple | ok i believe im missing some package...this is on ubuntu 10 http://pastebin.com/5Zdm0RDk |
| 00:07.30 | JeffM | for the home dir stuff |
| 00:07.39 | mrapple | compiling branch |
| 00:07.55 | JeffM | you install the C++ compiler? |
| 00:08.01 | mrapple | i thought so |
| 00:08.09 | blast007 | know so |
| 00:08.11 | smoooth | Constitution: If they spent $3K on a G5 they shouldn't have any problem spending a quarter of that now to buy something modern:)... don't they know about moore's law..? $3K, what a waste |
| 00:08.21 | blast007 | mrapple: aptitude install g++ |
| 00:08.21 | mrapple | ok i will make sure |
| 00:08.22 | JeffM | I usualy get the SDL dev package, that gets most of BZ's dependencies and compilers |
| 00:08.36 | mrapple | blast i already did that |
| 00:08.40 | blast007 | k |
| 00:08.47 | DTRemenak | smoooth: some people don't like change. |
| 00:09.02 | Constitution | mrapple: did you install build-essential? |
| 00:09.05 | JeffM | like Pete :) |
| 00:09.10 | mrapple | Constitution: yep |
| 00:09.16 | DTRemenak | hah, true |
| 00:09.31 | Constitution | smoooth: some people invest heavily in a machine they need to perform well for work or other projects, and they need that system to last |
| 00:09.36 | smoooth | DTRemenak: Agreed, I am not a fan of quick change...... but some take it way too far lol |
| 00:10.01 | Constitution | if bzflag was crysis I wouldn't be complaining |
| 00:10.04 | DTRemenak | smoooth: and at least theoretically, bz still builds and runs on decade-plus old IRIX boxen |
| 00:10.10 | mrapple | oh i porbably need gcc... |
| 00:10.20 | DTRemenak | dunno if anyone's tried with trunk recently |
| 00:10.22 | mrapple | wierd i have that installed |
| 00:10.36 | JeffM | mrapple: that why I do sdl dev it depends on the same things as bz |
| 00:10.44 | Constitution | but there has been only minimal changes to our rendering system, and it sounds like the motivation to drop PPC mac is merely that "it's old", rather than some technical reason |
| 00:10.56 | JeffM | Constitution: no it's a maintenance thing |
| 00:11.09 | JeffM | as you have shown it slows down the OSX release package |
| 00:11.11 | JeffM | that's all |
| 00:11.19 | Constitution | ok |
| 00:11.21 | JeffM | fewer devs have access to them |
| 00:11.28 | JeffM | so it's harder to get a build into the package |
| 00:11.37 | DTRemenak | you may even want to release separate packages for intel and ppc, instead of fat ones. |
| 00:11.38 | blast007 | and it it PPC itself, or just 10.3? |
| 00:11.44 | JeffM | that's what I think |
| 00:12.04 | JeffM | don't punish the intels because we have less access to a PPC now |
| 00:12.10 | JeffM | when PPC is a smaller group |
| 00:12.24 | Constitution | blast007: it was a very specific problem that I haven't seen before... probably dropping 10.3 would fix it one way or another |
| 00:12.32 | JeffM | 10.3 isn't hard to build for IIRC, it was 10.2 |
| 00:12.37 | temporalD | two binaries for OSX makes sense to me |
| 00:12.55 | JeffM | spliting them would also let us see how many PPC downloads we have too |
| 00:13.15 | JeffM | to know if it's worth making a PPC official package later |
| 00:13.22 | JeffM | or holding things for it, etc.. |
| 00:13.27 | Constitution | or the ppc version might not get done at all |
| 00:13.33 | JeffM | possibly |
| 00:14.02 | JeffM | I think PPC users are used to having to get a different package so it won't offend them much |
| 00:14.12 | JeffM | or not having one available ;) |
| 00:14.37 | brlcad | the sdl platform used to lack several features for mac, but most of the differences have since been implemented for sdl -- some 3.0 release would be a good time to cut back to only one SDL platform |
| 00:16.18 | brlcad | there was a performance hit (slightly slower) the last time it was tested under controlled conditions, but not unplayably so (and not anywhere near the rate of hardware change) |
| 00:18.02 | smoooth | seems like there are already plenty of challenges to development, steamlining by cutting down to one SDL might be potentially productive idea |
| 00:18.31 | JeffM | only if the chalenges are related to that |
| 00:18.37 | JeffM | if they are not then it's just more work for little reward |
| 00:18.48 | JeffM | the current problem is that it just needs to be friggin shipped |
| 00:21.55 | smoooth | Forgive me, I don't hangout in the development world -- what types of problems are preventing the current version from being shipped? Short answer will do :) |
| 00:22.21 | JeffM | the last set of critical bugs have not been fixed |
| 00:22.38 | JeffM | bassicly slow development/interest |
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| 00:22.58 | smoooth | how many people are working on the bugs fixes? |
| 00:23.06 | JeffM | few |
| 00:23.11 | smoooth | < 3? |
| 00:23.21 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:23.34 | JeffM | BulletCatcher has been working his tail off |
| 00:23.39 | JeffM | others help when they can |
| 00:23.51 | JeffM | but there hasn't been that big of a concerted effort |
| 00:24.39 | JeffM | and I think there has been some feature creep too |
| 00:25.18 | smoooth | JeffM: yeah can't imagine adding features will add to a quick release date :) |
| 00:25.40 | JeffM | what's another couple months in a release with a 5 year lifetime ;) |
| 00:26.48 | smoooth | JeffM: and btw, make sure we make it available for this one guy, he still runs PPC lol no offense const |
| 00:27.01 | JeffM | I will make sure of nothing |
| 00:27.07 | JeffM | I ain't no project admin anymore ;) |
| 00:27.27 | smoooth | hung it up eh? |
| 00:27.32 | smoooth | who is now? |
| 00:27.34 | DTRemenak | pft, you of all people should know that adminship doesn't mean anything around here :) |
| 00:27.42 | smoooth | lol |
| 00:27.48 | JeffM | DTRemenak: people ask me a lot less questions |
| 00:27.51 | JeffM | so it worked out |
| 00:27.59 | JeffM | no fourm stuff etc.. |
| 00:28.05 | DTRemenak | yeah, true enough |
| 00:28.26 | smoooth | never want to take ur most productive person and make them "management"... give that to the guy who does nothing but is a good talker |
| 00:28.26 | DTRemenak | but as far as development impact, reputation means way more than the bit does |
| 00:28.33 | JeffM | sure |
| 00:28.41 | JeffM | and I didn't remove my commit status |
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| 00:28.51 | JeffM | I just don't want to be "the go to guy" anymore |
| 00:29.30 | JeffM | I want to find a store that sells 2.54mm thru hole header sockets in 50 pin strips! |
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| 01:01.39 | BulletCatcher | For the record, trepan did most of the recent heavy lifting on trunk. |
| 01:01.41 | BulletCatcher | Thanks to his work, some of the critical bugs are much less critical now, or even solved. |
| 01:09.23 | JeffM2501 | ship it ;) |
| 01:13.37 | smoooth | Yeah why the wait BulletCatcher? |
| 01:13.38 | mrapple | smoooth: rejoin |
| 01:13.51 | smoooth | eh why/ |
| 01:13.55 | smoooth | k i will |
| 01:13.57 | mrapple | fm need one more |
| 01:17.16 | trepan | thanks BulletCatcher |
| 01:17.42 | trepan | fwiw, i'm of the opinion that a number of server-side state bugs remain |
| 01:18.11 | trepan | ex: the new shot tracking looks buggy |
| 01:18.33 | trepan | hence the need for some test versions (alpha2), and some testers ;) |
| 01:21.24 | delusional | i am ready |
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| 01:55.30 | BulletCatcher | DTRemenak: The SGI O2 with IRIX 6.5.3 (installed in 1999) I have access to doesn't have curl, so 2.0.x won't get past configure there. |
| 01:55.34 | BulletCatcher | The trunk configure system seems to expect to use the MIPSpro compiler, but the computer has no MIPSpro c++, so I am stuck. |
| 01:56.00 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 01:56.04 | BulletCatcher | It isn't worth my time to investigate further. I don't think I have ever seen an IRIX client on my server. |
| 01:56.21 | JeffM2501 | more reason for him to figure out how to format the disk on the O2 at work ;) |
| 01:56.51 | BulletCatcher | If he just needs guidance, I may be able to help. |
| 01:57.05 | BulletCatcher | But I have forgotten much of IRIX. |
| 01:57.16 | JeffM2501 | we just don't know how to format the disk he me to put in it |
| 01:57.34 | JeffM2501 | we don't know the root password to the drive that came with it |
| 01:57.55 | BulletCatcher | Do you have an install CD? |
| 01:58.04 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 01:58.21 | JeffM2501 | and a nice empty 36 gig drive |
| 01:58.31 | JeffM2501 | but it needs a partion |
| 01:58.32 | BulletCatcher | You should be able to boot from CD, mount the existing root file system, and edit the password file to change the root password. |
| 01:59.00 | JeffM2501 | I'd rather just do a reinstall on the new disk |
| 01:59.05 | JeffM2501 | I don't actualy know where the old drive is |
| 01:59.14 | JeffM2501 | it's been over a year since we messed with it |
| 01:59.22 | JeffM2501 | I accedentaly bought it on ebay |
| 02:01.30 | BulletCatcher | When installing from CD it should allow you to format the disk drive. |
| 02:01.39 | JeffM2501 | it did |
| 02:01.48 | JeffM2501 | once you know the magic numbers to give it |
| 02:01.53 | JeffM2501 | thats where we stoped |
| 02:02.54 | BulletCatcher | My notes say to "make an xfs root file system with block size 4096." |
| 02:03.18 | BulletCatcher | After that, the installation process should work normally. |
| 02:03.46 | JeffM2501 | I'll see if I can set it up when I go to work tomorow |
| 02:04.50 | BulletCatcher | Ooooh. I have instructions for formatting the disk using "fx" too. |
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| 04:07.26 | CIA-86 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21236 10/trunk/bzflag/ (plugins/Makefile.am src/other/Makefile.am): Add "missing" and "mkinstalldirs" as needed to MAINTAINERCLEANFILES lists. |
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| 04:40.10 | BulletCatcher | "make maintainer-clean" should now clean up everything in trunk that is not in the Subversion repository. |
| 04:40.13 | BulletCatcher | I use "svn status --no-ignore" afterward to confirm that there are no stray files left around. |
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| 11:54.04 | Constitution | ~BulletCatcher++ |
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| 16:13.19 | Cobra_Fast | blast007: thanks for the hint on -cache and -cacheout, going to use this in the gamma version |
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| 17:12.33 | CIA-86 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21237 10/trunk/bzflag/src/clientbase/ (LocalPlayer.cxx Player.cxx): Explicitly use float constant to avoid warning about conversion from double. |
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| 17:14.11 | BulletCatcher | That leaves 2216 warnings in trunk about implicit conversions from one type to another when -Wconversion is used. |
| 17:14.52 | trepan | pastebin? |
| 17:15.00 | BulletCatcher | example: src/clientbase/Player.h:539: warning: conversion to 'short int' from 'int' may alter its value |
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| 17:19.30 | BulletCatcher | It isn't worth pasting the whole list. Just add -Wconversion to CONF_CXXFLAGS to see them for yourself. |
| 17:19.56 | trepan | 1 second to load a webpage vs. a full compile, that's why I asked |
| 17:20.19 | trepan | is well aware of the steps required to add compilation flags ;) |
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| 17:23.25 | BulletCatcher | Just the list of warnings is 200K bytes, and I don't see an upload capability at pastebin.com . |
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| 17:24.13 | JefferyM | mail it to me and I can put it on the intertubes |
| 17:24.30 | blast007 | or split it in half: http://pastebin.ca/upload.php |
| 17:24.48 | blast007 | or: http://filebin.ca/ |
| 17:24.53 | BulletCatcher | I'll copy it to bzflag.bz, that should be good enough. |
| 17:26.52 | BulletCatcher | See ~jeff/warnings on bz. |
| 17:27.49 | blast007 | think you need to chmod that a bit |
| 17:27.55 | blast007 | "Forbidden" |
| 17:28.36 | BulletCatcher | Use local file access, not http. It is mode 644. |
| 17:42.55 | trepan | on the up side, it looks like about 20% can be fixed by adjusting 2 header files (Player.h and TextUtils.h) |
| 17:47.36 | BulletCatcher | Cool. Beyond that, I don't see any shortcut for examining each warning to determine whether the potential problem is real. |
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| 17:50.06 | trepan | 440 of them are "'PlayerId' from 'int'", probably not an issue |
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| 18:34.58 | Cobra_Fast | does BZFlag support JPEG textures? |
| 18:39.58 | BulletCatcher | No. |
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