| 00:07.13 | JeffM2501 | the bot is on the same machine that did the shoting? |
| 00:18.11 | thefirstdude | yes |
| 00:19.08 | JeffM2501 | then that makes sense |
| 00:19.19 | JeffM2501 | local bots share the state of the player that is hosting them |
| 00:19.29 | JeffM2501 | you shot, it got added to the state, and she died |
| 00:19.37 | JeffM2501 | it dosn't have to go to the server for that |
| 00:20.38 | thefirstdude | oh |
| 00:20.53 | JeffM2501 | the server don't controll death |
| 00:21.22 | thefirstdude | ...it relays the I died msg |
| 00:21.45 | JeffM2501 | yeah, that isn't the same thing |
| 00:21.47 | thefirstdude | btw the bot was an autopilot bot on another 'session'' |
| 00:21.51 | JeffM2501 | it's mostly just a message relay |
| 00:21.54 | JeffM2501 | oh |
| 00:22.04 | JeffM2501 | how did you block the message on the server? |
| 00:22.10 | JeffM2501 | and why are you making a cheat server? |
| 00:22.13 | thefirstdude | so I ignored the msg and didn't broadcast..it seams as though each client detects killing |
| 00:22.29 | thefirstdude | case MsgKilled....break; |
| 00:22.38 | thefirstdude | cheat server....? |
| 00:22.39 | JeffM2501 | yeah clients detect there own death |
| 00:22.50 | JeffM2501 | what are you trying to do? |
| 00:22.55 | thefirstdude | I am saying clients detect others death it seems |
| 00:23.00 | thefirstdude | I am making soccer mod |
| 00:23.11 | thefirstdude | ball is bullets, I don't want ppl to die.. |
| 00:23.21 | thefirstdude | I guess they will die and isntantly respawn some how |
| 00:23.31 | thefirstdude | cause it seems that each client detects when others die |
| 00:23.42 | JeffM2501 | you can't realy do that |
| 00:23.51 | JeffM2501 | when a client detects that they got shot, they will die |
| 00:23.54 | thefirstdude | the instant respawn? |
| 00:23.58 | JeffM2501 | even if you don't tell anyone else |
| 00:24.04 | thefirstdude | I was afraid of that |
| 00:24.19 | JeffM2501 | we don't do what you want to do |
| 00:24.23 | JeffM2501 | not in 2.0.x at least |
| 00:24.35 | thefirstdude | so you can't make someone "invincible" |
| 00:24.42 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 00:24.58 | JeffM2501 | only players can make themselves invincible |
| 00:25.06 | thefirstdude | ...what about shield |
| 00:25.06 | JeffM2501 | the server does very little with regards to the actual game |
| 00:25.13 | JeffM2501 | that's a client side flag |
| 00:25.17 | thefirstdude | can I keep feeding ppl shield automatcly |
| 00:25.26 | JeffM2501 | it would overide whatever flag they had |
| 00:25.26 | thefirstdude | that will work :) |
| 00:25.30 | JeffM2501 | and they could drop it |
| 00:26.06 | AAA_awright | You can use a PZ bullet, though that doesn't rico |
| 00:26.09 | JeffM2501 | also what is going to prevent someone from shooting more then once? how will you handle multiple "balls"? |
| 00:26.21 | thefirstdude | when they send drop it sends it right back |
| 00:26.21 | JeffM2501 | and how are you going to detect a goal? |
| 00:26.37 | JeffM2501 | there will be a time when they won't have the flag, at least one lag time, probably more |
| 00:26.43 | *** join/#bzflag me1 (~ausom@bzflag/player/Me1) |
| 00:26.44 | thefirstdude | easy...bbl |
| 00:27.04 | thefirstdude | true...I thought of that |
| 00:27.19 | thefirstdude | but only stupid ppl will keep dropping their flag |
| 00:27.27 | thefirstdude | and might get banned |
| 00:27.36 | JeffM2501 | if the game has flags, they will drop it to find a better one |
| 00:27.38 | JeffM2501 | human nature |
| 00:27.50 | JeffM2501 | your building your system on a weak house of cards |
| 00:27.55 | AAA_awright | What is the mechanic of the game again? Some sort of soccer? |
| 00:28.12 | thefirstdude | pass and catch |
| 00:28.26 | thefirstdude | don't worry, ppl aren't that stupid...it will be awesome |
| 00:28.33 | JeffM2501 | you don't have the controlls to prevent people who haven't "caught" from shooting |
| 00:28.47 | thefirstdude | you mean ppl who are cheating |
| 00:29.00 | JeffM2501 | pressing the mouse button should not be cheating |
| 00:29.02 | thefirstdude | again...they will be banned for life |
| 00:29.12 | JeffM2501 | wow, that'd be a very crappy server then |
| 00:29.14 | thefirstdude | oh..they will have sw |
| 00:29.17 | thefirstdude | forced upoin them |
| 00:29.24 | thefirstdude | and it will be useless |
| 00:29.26 | JeffM2501 | then you can't give them shield |
| 00:29.32 | thefirstdude | oh... |
| 00:29.32 | JeffM2501 | cus they will have a flag |
| 00:29.37 | AAA_awright | You can block the MsgShotBegin for people who shouldn't shoot, at the very worst |
| 00:29.49 | JeffM2501 | yeah but the shooter will still see it |
| 00:29.52 | thefirstdude | yup, already did that |
| 00:29.53 | JeffM2501 | also they can drop SW |
| 00:30.20 | JeffM2501 | I'd recomend you not put this buggy game mode on the list server, it will be very confusing |
| 00:35.16 | *** join/#bzflag sussudio (~sussudio@unaffiliated/sussudio) |
| 00:35.36 | sussudio | just like to report a cheater/jerk: 67.126.240.226 |
| 00:36.10 | JeffM2501 | report it to who? |
| 00:36.17 | sussudio | whoever wants it. |
| 00:36.47 | sussudio | probably knightmare again... |
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| 00:52.06 | blast007 | I don't think knightmare is even around anymore .. |
| 00:52.19 | blast007 | knightmare != nightmare |
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| 00:55.33 | sussudio | meh. he was invincible, instant teleport, went outside bounds and dropped flags there and joined with a dozen bots so nobody else could join |
| 00:55.53 | a_meteorite | that's nightmare, from irvine, CA on att dsl |
| 00:55.58 | blast007 | report it to the owner of the server that was affected then |
| 00:56.02 | sussudio | i'm the owner |
| 00:56.08 | blast007 | then ban them ;) |
| 00:56.09 | a_meteorite | ban him then. |
| 00:56.11 | sussudio | i did |
| 00:56.26 | sussudio | i have the server for 6 more weeks |
| 00:56.29 | a_meteorite | many servers employ a hostban against him and whitelist requests |
| 00:58.03 | sussudio | there's no way to allow global ops, is there |
| 00:58.26 | JeffM2501 | what do you mean? |
| 00:58.42 | sussudio | well, some sort of list of approved ops |
| 00:58.49 | JeffM2501 | there are groups |
| 00:59.01 | JeffM2501 | you could give perms to various global groups |
| 00:59.07 | sussudio | hm |
| 00:59.09 | JeffM2501 | but we don't maintain group of "trusted" ops |
| 00:59.13 | sussudio | k |
| 00:59.20 | a_meteorite | yeah, not yet anyways. |
| 00:59.25 | JeffM2501 | and we won't |
| 00:59.29 | JeffM2501 | you may, but we won't |
| 00:59.33 | a_meteorite | not through the official project, no |
| 01:00.03 | sussudio | the sound keeps getting cut off on this pc, btw... sorta annoying |
| 01:00.05 | a_meteorite | a lot of people add DEVELOPERS, but I really don't know how many devs would actually enforce server policy when asked |
| 01:00.21 | JeffM2501 | few would even KNOW the server pollicy |
| 01:00.33 | a_meteorite | good servers have it in the intro or /help :) |
| 01:00.34 | JeffM2501 | the only reason I can see to do that is if you want the server to be used for testing |
| 01:00.55 | JeffM2501 | developers are not community moderators |
| 01:01.22 | JeffM2501 | ugg.. worldforge is such a messy project |
| 01:01.38 | a_meteorite | yeah, but if someone hops on #bzflag and complains and a dev logs in there to see what's up.. may be useful |
| 01:01.59 | JeffM2501 | that's not what #bzflag is for |
| 01:02.12 | JeffM2501 | if the owner trusts the devs that's all up to them |
| 01:02.18 | JeffM2501 | I just think it's stupid :) |
| 01:02.30 | a_meteorite | I know it's not, but a lot of people don't know that |
| 01:03.22 | a_meteorite | sussudio: you're welcome to use BZFX.Admin if you like, I think some servers used it for some time as a supplement, but it's your server so you can do whatever you want |
| 01:03.29 | a_meteorite | you don't have to own the group to use it, that's for sure |
| 01:03.45 | sussudio | bzfx.admin? |
| 01:03.51 | a_meteorite | yeah, I maintain that group |
| 01:04.09 | a_meteorite | BZFX.Admin and BZFX.hAdmin with higher ups. |
| 01:04.25 | a_meteorite | there's some well-rounded individuals in there |
| 01:04.34 | me1 | sussudio, you can request your own global groups and put people you trust in them, there's a thread under "servers: general discussions" at the bzbb |
| 01:04.38 | a_meteorite | indeed |
| 01:04.56 | sussudio | it's 2AM now, i'll look tomorrow |
| 01:05.30 | a_meteorite | just to be clear my group isn't "official" as in condoned by bzflag to be used as a trusted group, I just know my group is good and other servers in the past (I haven't checked recently) use(d) it |
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| 01:07.54 | thefirstdude | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:12.59 | a_meteorite | yeah man I try my best |
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| 15:09.09 | kierra | brlcad ping |
| 15:23.58 | kierra | forget the ping, brlcad, blast took care of me :) |
| 15:24.57 | TheRedBaron | well brlcad looks like you missed the opportunity to be the white knight. Better luck next time ;) |
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| 18:03.38 | thefirstdude | I figured it out...I can make ppl instantly respawn in the same pos, and also can terminate bullets right after they are shot |
| 18:04.20 | JefferyM | in V3 you can just turn off shooting for a specific tank |
| 18:05.02 | thefirstdude | yeh...but this is just me having fun and learning c at the same time |
| 18:05.54 | thefirstdude | apparently when a player dies they send a ShotEnd msg? |
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| 18:09.33 | JefferyM | you'd still have to use C for V3, it would just be in a plugin |
| 18:09.37 | JefferyM | not in the bzfs code |
| 18:09.54 | JefferyM | yes, the player that dies tells us they ended the shot |
| 18:10.05 | JefferyM | since the server dosn't know when shots hit playres |
| 18:10.18 | JefferyM | that way the shot dosn't keep going on the other player screens |
| 18:10.24 | trepan | but ShotEnd is only for GMs in V3, iirc |
| 18:10.37 | JefferyM | yeah a lot more things are assumed in VC3 |
| 18:10.40 | JefferyM | V3 |
| 18:11.04 | JefferyM | the server knows what shot killed a player as that's part of the report so it sends the endshot |
| 18:11.18 | JefferyM | dosn't remember if he added the "ask to die" system as well |
| 18:11.45 | thefirstdude | but it still isn't close to being released.... :( |
| 18:11.55 | JefferyM | depends on what you mean? |
| 18:12.12 | thefirstdude | like...to the public |
| 18:12.14 | JefferyM | if all the bugs were fixed in it today, I'd start the release process tomroow |
| 18:14.35 | JefferyM | it is only as far off as the lack of effort people are willing to put into it |
| 18:14.44 | JefferyM | it is bassicaly feature complete. |
| 18:17.01 | thefirstdude | btw, I what I meant to ask was if a player self destructs...does he send a endShot or something |
| 18:17.07 | thefirstdude | cause when I self d my shot disapears |
| 18:17.10 | JefferyM | no, there is no shot |
| 18:17.17 | JefferyM | yeah your shots will |
| 18:17.25 | JefferyM | but not anyone elses |
| 18:17.32 | thefirstdude | oh... |
| 18:17.47 | JefferyM | the endshot on death is to remove the shot that got ya |
| 18:17.50 | thefirstdude | so self ding won't make my shots disapear... |
| 18:17.56 | JefferyM | that I don' tknow |
| 18:18.10 | JefferyM | check the code to see if it sends an endshot |
| 18:18.13 | JefferyM | I don't think it does |
| 18:18.15 | thefirstdude | ok...I am still testing it |
| 18:18.18 | JefferyM | but it's been a while since I was in there |
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| 18:22.34 | thefirstdude | test complete....the shot stays there |
| 18:26.26 | JefferyM | good |
| 18:26.43 | JefferyM | that way you could get a kill after you blowed up |
| 18:35.59 | thefirstdude | that way when someone "kicks the ball" they can't self d and make the ball disapear |
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| 18:39.17 | thefirstdude | nice, I caused a seg fault |
| 18:41.01 | JefferyM | use your debuger and find out why |
| 18:45.41 | thefirstdude | I don't really have one...just terminal and make |
| 18:45.49 | thefirstdude | and scite |
| 18:47.08 | thefirstdude | I am calling dropPlayerFlag if they have BlueTeam when they fire... |
| 18:47.34 | JefferyM | get a one |
| 18:47.38 | JefferyM | GDB is command line |
| 18:56.43 | TheRedBaron | the only effect your death has on shots, should be GM, causing it to lose lock. |
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| 18:58.43 | JefferyM | I'm not sure if that was by desgin or simply by effect of you not sending out GM updates anymore |
| 18:59.07 | JefferyM | there was a fair amont of debate about that |
| 18:59.44 | TheRedBaron | I always figured by design, as it was the tank that mantained the lock |
| 18:59.44 | thefirstdude | I was tempted to edit the client to make it stay locked :) |
| 19:00.18 | thefirstdude | also make so you ca'nt lockon to teamates....seriously |
| 19:02.50 | WarPig | That would be considered a 'cheat' by most admins. |
| 19:03.25 | JefferyM | TheRedBaron, I don't belive it behaves the same way if you drop the flag |
| 19:03.49 | JefferyM | thefirstdude, sounds more like you are making a fork then just a server mod |
| 19:04.18 | JefferyM | TheRedBaron, we had lots of discussions about how GM "should" work when we were looking at moving the GM update code server side |
| 19:04.31 | JefferyM | the quesion was, is the tank guding it, or is the missle doing the flying |
| 19:04.55 | thefirstdude | I am forking the server, but not the client... |
| 19:04.57 | JefferyM | "lock on" seems to indicate that you are telling the missle "Get that guy" |
| 19:05.19 | thefirstdude | you mean like heat seaking? |
| 19:05.31 | JefferyM | I would say radar seeking, but yes |
| 19:05.55 | thefirstdude | then it would know what team the enemy is on...cause the radar shows color |
| 19:06.01 | JefferyM | the implication that the tank sends updates is more of a "fly by wire" thing |
| 19:06.11 | TheRedBaron | JefferyM: the huge debate on the flag drop came in when shot limits were introduced |
| 19:06.19 | TheRedBaron | because you did lose lock once the flag dropped |
| 19:06.27 | JefferyM | TheRedBaron, yes that was one of the cases |
| 19:06.38 | JefferyM | there have been many huge debates on it :) |
| 19:06.42 | TheRedBaron | people were upset, because the 10 shot limit was effectively a 9 shot limit. |
| 19:07.10 | thefirstdude | lol, it is fair for everyone though...they got upset? |
| 19:07.13 | JefferyM | I'm just saying I don't think the behavor was DESGINGED, it just happened based on how it was writen, not that someone said they "should" do this. |
| 19:07.19 | thefirstdude | just make it 11 shot limit |
| 19:07.32 | TheRedBaron | JefferyM: yes, but they all pale in comparison to radar discussions ;) |
| 19:07.37 | JefferyM | yes |
| 19:07.57 | JefferyM | I still think we should change radar to be more radar like |
| 19:08.11 | JefferyM | got GodView |
| 19:08.13 | WarPig | sweeps and blips? |
| 19:08.14 | TheRedBaron | I prefer my radar to be akin to a lesser deity :P |
| 19:08.15 | JefferyM | not I mean |
| 19:08.33 | JefferyM | WarPig, not sweeps, but have it work in a radius and be blocked by thick things |
| 19:08.49 | WarPig | Ahh, interesting |
| 19:08.52 | JefferyM | actualy try to treat it like a sensor on the tank, not eye in the sky |
| 19:09.16 | JefferyM | the current implementation makes bzflag a mostly 2d game |
| 19:09.27 | JefferyM | so that radar becomes the primary visual input |
| 19:09.49 | JefferyM | and I know that wasn't the intent |
| 19:09.57 | WarPig | That would be a widely hated change, I'm afraid. You'd have to make it a map option. |
| 19:10.27 | JefferyM | naw, just do it in bzflag2 |
| 19:10.33 | JefferyM | after bzflag is dead |
| 19:10.43 | WarPig | :P |
| 19:10.52 | JefferyM | he thinks I jest |
| 19:11.14 | WarPig | bzflag is dead, LONG LIVE BZFLAG! |
| 19:11.26 | TheRedBaron | he has not seen your other plans for bz. |
| 19:11.28 | JefferyM | it dosn't even have to die |
| 19:11.43 | JefferyM | quake didn't die when quake2 came out |
| 19:12.07 | WarPig | true |
| 19:12.24 | JefferyM | heck quake1 has more updates now then bzflag does :) |
| 19:12.47 | JefferyM | it'll just take someone who wants to spend the time to make a slightly different game |
| 19:13.08 | JefferyM | leave current bz as "BZFlag Classic" |
| 19:13.24 | JefferyM | then make a new one that goes in a little different direction |
| 19:15.18 | JefferyM | you must admit that there are people who would like the option of play a somewhat more action oriented game |
| 19:16.33 | trepan | and those that would prefer authoritative server, better gfx, scriptability, etc... |
| 19:17.42 | JefferyM | well that could be put into bz with out changing gameplay, the major changes to gameplay is what I was refering to |
| 19:17.45 | thefirstdude | I am an idiot |
| 19:17.52 | JefferyM | tho the system could be made so flexable to allow such things |
| 19:18.09 | thefirstdude | I was testing fInfo.flag.type without checking if fInfo.flag existed |
| 19:18.09 | trepan | JefferyM: not worth doing with the current code base, imo |
| 19:18.10 | JefferyM | if it was turned into a more "real" engine |
| 19:18.14 | JefferyM | no it's not |
| 19:18.17 | thefirstdude | so I kept getting the same error...duh |
| 19:18.22 | joevano | thefirstdude: self awareness is a good thing |
| 19:18.30 | JefferyM | that's what a debuger would have told you :) |
| 19:30.43 | thefirstdude | it says std::cout << '\ntesting bla\n'; is too long so it writes 1651269898.... |
| 19:30.50 | thefirstdude | who would have known |
| 19:48.53 | *** join/#bzflag Swigg (~Default@bzflag/player/Swigg) |
| 19:55.22 | *** join/#bzflag me1 (~ausom@bzflag/player/Me1) |
| 20:03.16 | *** part/#bzflag Kutakizukari (~Elijah@207-255-185-183-dhcp.gsv.md.atlanticbb.net) |
| 20:11.30 | thefirstdude | client is strange....right after msgAlive I send a msgflaggrab, the client has that white box in the gui...saying it has a flag...and says in chat flag grabbed but it...doesn't have a flag |
| 20:11.44 | thefirstdude | it is really stragne |
| 20:13.05 | thefirstdude | and the client can go pickup another flag...so it now has "2 flags" |
| 20:20.34 | TheRedBaron | quick, pick up cloackign and stealth! |
| 20:20.47 | TheRedBaron | and get me a spell-checker while you're at it. |
| 20:20.53 | JefferyM | well you are sort of abusing the protocol. |
| 20:21.20 | thefirstdude | not really, I am just sending a MsgGrab right after MsgAlive |
| 20:21.29 | JefferyM | and it isn't working ;) |
| 20:21.49 | thefirstdude | and it says in chat, Tank Self Destructing .. flag grabbed .. blew myself up |
| 20:22.01 | JefferyM | yeah it's going out of order |
| 20:22.03 | thefirstdude | and it "half" has the flag |
| 20:22.15 | JefferyM | UDP messages don't have to come to the client in order |
| 20:22.28 | thefirstdude | everytime I do it it is in that order |
| 20:22.50 | JefferyM | does the client get them in the same order you sent them? |
| 20:23.48 | thefirstdude | maybe I should reverse the order in code...grab then alive |
| 20:24.01 | thefirstdude | cuase there is probably a buffer and it sends them in reverse order |
| 20:24.07 | JefferyM | or debug the client and see WHY |
| 20:24.11 | JefferyM | no there is no buffer |
| 20:24.22 | JefferyM | UDP messags can get order swaped into ANY order during transport |
| 20:24.27 | JefferyM | that's part of UDP |
| 20:24.37 | JefferyM | you probalby have a bad state |
| 20:24.51 | JefferyM | and the client dosn't know it can accept flags yet |
| 20:25.48 | JefferyM | when dealing with networking you have to be aware that messages may come out of order, or may be dropped entirely |
| 20:25.55 | JefferyM | and your code has to handle that |
| 20:26.15 | thefirstdude | umm...tcp :D |
| 20:26.19 | thefirstdude | why not use tcp |
| 20:26.24 | JefferyM | because TCP is slow |
| 20:26.29 | JefferyM | we use it for some |
| 20:26.30 | JefferyM | but not all |
| 20:26.40 | JefferyM | UDP is generaly used for thigns that can be lost |
| 20:26.49 | blast007 | it has more overhead as well, and will waste bandwidth for data that doesn't *need* to get there |
| 20:26.51 | *** join/#bzflag Upsetter1 (~Ups@89.246.214.141) |
| 20:26.57 | JefferyM | I think your issue is not an out of order problem, but one of client state. |
| 20:27.44 | thefirstdude | most likely..considering the data never even leaves my comp, and the ping is like 0ms |
| 20:28.00 | JefferyM | dosn't matter |
| 20:28.07 | JefferyM | the driver could hold it |
| 20:28.21 | JefferyM | but those messages are TCP I think |
| 20:28.39 | JefferyM | use a debuger, put a breakpoint where the grab message comes into the client and set thru to see what it does |
| 20:28.45 | JefferyM | then you 'll know what is happening |
| 20:28.48 | JefferyM | rather then guessing |
| 20:28.49 | blast007 | self destructing is client side |
| 20:28.53 | blast007 | as is your own death |
| 20:29.02 | blast007 | so the "blew myself up" doesn't rely on data from the server |
| 20:30.02 | blast007 | thefirstdude: are you modifying the client as well? or is this all server-side? |
| 20:30.10 | thefirstdude | just server... |
| 20:30.24 | thefirstdude | I am going to see if it is the same when I get killed |
| 20:33.18 | thefirstdude | hmm, it says I grabbed flag before I got killed |
| 20:33.36 | thefirstdude | grrr...maybe I have to make a timeout somehow |
| 20:33.50 | thefirstdude | and that would need damn threading |
| 20:33.54 | JefferyM | why do you fear the debuger? |
| 20:33.57 | thefirstdude | or make a call later thingy |
| 20:34.05 | thefirstdude | I don't want to have to edit the client |
| 20:34.10 | blast007 | so? |
| 20:34.18 | thefirstdude | I want it to be a server mod only |
| 20:34.18 | JefferyM | when did I say anything about editing the client |
| 20:34.18 | blast007 | what does that have to do with the debugger? |
| 20:34.31 | thefirstdude | maybe the server is sending it out of order? |
| 20:34.32 | JefferyM | I simply said to use the debuger to understand what is happening. |
| 20:34.48 | blast007 | thefirstdude: use the debugger and find out ;) |
| 20:37.46 | JefferyM | yeah, you have to research it instead of guessing |
| 20:37.53 | JefferyM | or you will waste lots of time |
| 20:38.07 | JefferyM | just like research projects at school :) |
| 20:41.02 | thefirstdude | guessing on a research project...cool idea |
| 20:41.19 | JefferyM | never done one have you? |
| 20:43.25 | thefirstdude | huh, ofcourse I have |
| 20:44.06 | JefferyM | then you know guessing is a sure route to failure ;) |
| 20:44.22 | *** join/#bzflag Anthony_Luth (Anthony@unaffiliated/anthony-luth/x-0494258) |
| 20:44.45 | JefferyM | but really, the debuger will just tell you what order things happen on the client and you can see what is wrong |
| 20:44.58 | JefferyM | it may be that you just need to wait for another trigger, or send a different messag first |
| 20:45.10 | JefferyM | but you won't know untill you step thru the code as it's running |
| 20:45.49 | JefferyM | or you may see that what you want to do is not posisble at that time in the gamestate |
| 20:58.29 | thefirstdude | omlets are good! |
| 20:58.49 | JefferyM | wonders whatever happend to project 2501 |
| 20:58.51 | thefirstdude | I just made one for you..but oh...I don't know where you are so I guess I'll eat it |
| 20:59.18 | thefirstdude | 2501? |
| 20:59.19 | JefferyM | thefirstdude, untill you make the ckickens angry and they stop laying eggs for you |
| 20:59.23 | JefferyM | yep |
| 21:00.04 | thefirstdude | your callsign was JeffM2501...I think |
| 21:00.10 | thefirstdude | but what about it |
| 21:00.15 | JefferyM | still is somtimes |
| 21:00.21 | JefferyM | about what? |
| 21:00.39 | JefferyM | it shares the number for related but coincidental reasons |
| 21:00.58 | JefferyM | because who dosn't live secret guberment AI research |
| 21:01.15 | JefferyM | P2501 is/was another 3d tank game |
| 21:01.18 | JefferyM | writen by a bzflag player |
| 21:01.21 | JefferyM | bzfrank |
| 21:05.27 | thefirstdude | oh |
| 21:07.38 | thefirstdude | wow, it looks pretty sweet |
| 21:09.47 | JefferyM | it looked better then BZ in the day |
| 21:15.25 | TheRedBaron | JefferyM: its dead jim. |
| 21:15.34 | JefferyM | TheRedBaron, probably |
| 21:15.42 | JefferyM | too bad he didn't release the code |
| 21:16.36 | TheRedBaron | i remember playing the demo. |
| 21:16.57 | TheRedBaron | only thing is, tank models were ugly. |
| 21:17.06 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 21:17.10 | JefferyM | tho they were external models |
| 21:17.14 | JefferyM | so that is easy to change |
| 21:17.25 | JefferyM | pluging bzflag or other models into it would be trivial |
| 21:18.43 | TheRedBaron | JefferyM: what happened to open combat? |
| 21:18.46 | JefferyM | I have the code for it somewhere, just sucks he never released it |
| 21:19.01 | JefferyM | TheRedBaron, never got finished, like most things I do |
| 21:19.33 | TheRedBaron | heh, all too familiar a feeling. |
| 21:19.59 | JefferyM | it WAS rather ambitous |
| 21:20.08 | JefferyM | tho I have a lot of parts for it |
| 21:20.30 | TheRedBaron | hell, you had stories, models, and plans. |
| 21:20.48 | JefferyM | yeah I mean I have code parts for it now too |
| 21:21.07 | JefferyM | and rules for the FPS part |
| 21:22.22 | *** join/#bzflag mrapplecomputer1 (~mrappleco@bzflag/player/MrAppleComputer) |
| 21:28.07 | TheRedBaron | btw JefferyM, how computationally expensive would it be to implement server side state in bz as a cartesion plane, with a z axis? |
| 21:28.19 | TheRedBaron | *cartesian |
| 21:28.37 | JefferyM | what does that mean? |
| 21:28.40 | JefferyM | it's just XYZ coords |
| 21:28.51 | JefferyM | the state isn't the CPU intensive part of the BZ client |
| 21:28.54 | JefferyM | drawing is by far |
| 21:29.07 | JefferyM | 99% of the client time is spent drawing or waiting to draw |
| 21:29.39 | trepan | the 1% is spent deciding what to draw |
| 21:29.46 | JefferyM | heh |
| 21:29.46 | TheRedBaron | not refering to the bz client, but the server. |
| 21:29.53 | JefferyM | TheRedBaron, I know |
| 21:30.06 | TheRedBaron | as i've understood it, the server is just a relay |
| 21:30.16 | JefferyM | I'm telling you if the server did the same thing as the client it'd take no real CPU |
| 21:30.27 | JefferyM | it's a little more then a relay but yeah |
| 21:30.30 | JefferyM | it has a world state |
| 21:30.39 | JefferyM | it just dosn't track shots and players |
| 21:30.50 | JefferyM | v3 does try to interpolate players |
| 21:31.07 | JefferyM | all it would really need would be a copy of the shot strat stuff then it could track shots |
| 21:31.29 | JefferyM | it has the ability to do collisions, as that's mostly in obstacle |
| 21:33.33 | trepan | you can probably emulate most of the shot strategy stuff via luaServer |
| 21:33.43 | trepan | (using ObstacleRayTime) |
| 21:33.47 | JefferyM | probably |
| 21:33.54 | JefferyM | I was never sure why it precomputed it |
| 21:34.41 | trepan | shots through 'random' teleporters can't be matched, iirc |
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| 21:34.44 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:35.08 | JefferyM | I guess math used to be hard |
| 21:35.21 | JefferyM | TheRedBaron, mostly I don't get what you mean by "plane +Z" comment |
| 21:35.38 | JefferyM | how would that be different then just XYZ coords and vectors? |
| 21:37.34 | trepan | hm, i didn't copy LuaSpatial over to bzfs, which had RayTrace() (much easier to do shot tracking with that than ObstacleRayTime()) |
| 21:37.47 | JefferyM | why bother? |
| 21:39.30 | trepan | certainly not going to now ;) |
| 21:40.00 | TheRedBaron | JefferyM: because in my limited knowledge, a cartesian plane is a 2D surface. |
| 21:40.44 | JefferyM | I built a state class for my stuff that is shared by both client and server and can be synced over the network. then everyone just used events in the various state objects |
| 21:40.58 | JefferyM | TheRedBaron, So, X and Y, and you say add Z to it |
| 21:41.02 | JefferyM | so that makes it XYZ ;) |
| 21:41.19 | JefferyM | and generaly when people say plane, the mean a plane in 3d space |
| 21:41.32 | JefferyM | in an orientation |
| 21:42.16 | JefferyM | but really the number of values that are used for each object are not the major design points |
| 21:43.19 | TheRedBaron | and once again, syntax gets the best of me :( |
| 21:43.32 | *** join/#bzflag jomojo (~jomojo@cpe-76-184-20-22.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 21:43.53 | JefferyM | were you just thinking that if we could simplify the spatial representation it would make it faster and therefor dooable? |
| 21:45.52 | TheRedBaron | lord no. |
| 21:46.02 | JefferyM | ahh |
| 21:46.10 | JefferyM | well we sort of are 2.5d ish |
| 21:46.13 | TheRedBaron | I was wondering if increase the spatial representation the server does, would tax the servers. |
| 21:46.20 | JefferyM | as in we don't track all 3 rots of a tank |
| 21:46.36 | JefferyM | the representation, no |
| 21:46.40 | JefferyM | as that's just data to store |
| 21:47.05 | JefferyM | interpolating the positions of more things on the server will of course use more CPU |
| 21:47.08 | JefferyM | no way around that |
| 21:47.13 | TheRedBaron | correct |
| 21:47.17 | JefferyM | but it will be so minimal it will not be noticed |
| 21:47.21 | TheRedBaron | my question was, how much more CPU ? |
| 21:47.26 | JefferyM | squat |
| 21:47.37 | JefferyM | it's only a couple hundred multipikes |
| 21:47.41 | JefferyM | multiplies |
| 21:47.54 | JefferyM | a couple time a second |
| 21:48.07 | JefferyM | remember the server dosn't run at the same update rate as the client |
| 21:48.12 | JefferyM | not hundreds of times a second |
| 21:48.24 | TheRedBaron | is this a good thing, or bad ? |
| 21:48.25 | JefferyM | it's also very simple math |
| 21:48.43 | JefferyM | there is no need to update the state that often |
| 21:48.48 | JefferyM | not if the math is writen right |
| 21:49.02 | TheRedBaron | why not ? |
| 21:49.04 | JefferyM | the server has no need to draw smooth animation |
| 21:49.11 | JefferyM | all it has to do is detect when things happen |
| 21:49.24 | TheRedBaron | ok, there would be my question. |
| 21:49.31 | JefferyM | if your math can detect that during an update you would have gone thru an object, it's ok to have a big update time |
| 21:49.42 | JefferyM | since most of the time players drive in open space |
| 21:49.56 | JefferyM | you only need to make smaller steps when you detect that they did go thru something |
| 21:50.00 | JefferyM | then you split just that one up |
| 21:50.05 | JefferyM | much more efficent |
| 21:50.06 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (~fatass@pool-71-178-120-61.washdc.east.verizon.net) |
| 21:50.13 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (~fatass@bzflag/player/ThinkDifferent) |
| 21:50.54 | JefferyM | if the server were to break them up into frames, most of them would go unused as nothing would happen in them |
| 21:51.09 | JefferyM | all the server cares about is getting the state right when an event happens |
| 21:51.23 | TheRedBaron | instead of detecting, why not actually do the drawing (not in 3d, but on an XYZ grid in memory), with the client sending requests to update its position. Which the server will Process. IE, tank wants to move at 150 units/sec to the right. Server checks the rules, and complies, or issues "I'm sorry dave, i'm afraid i can't do that" |
| 21:51.25 | JefferyM | you do need some minium time of course, to prevent lags |
| 21:51.52 | JefferyM | that's what the state is |
| 21:51.55 | JefferyM | it dosn't need to draw |
| 21:52.03 | JefferyM | the server dosn't care about the triangles of a tank |
| 21:52.08 | JefferyM | it just cares about bounding boxes |
| 21:52.40 | JefferyM | so when we get an update, it goes and plots them, sees if the bounds cross something, compute the responce and then set that as the state |
| 21:52.56 | JefferyM | that's the same thing the client does |
| 21:52.59 | JefferyM | before it draws |
| 21:53.18 | TheRedBaron | So basically, we're talking about the same thing. |
| 21:53.24 | JefferyM | the cleint just does it a lot so that it can interpolate frames for smooth animation |
| 21:53.25 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 21:53.33 | TheRedBaron | My JefferyM translator is rusty. |
| 21:53.36 | JefferyM | heh |
| 21:53.56 | TheRedBaron | its only used to JeffM, JeffM2501, and Patlabor221 |
| 21:53.58 | JefferyM | the server already does some player/world collisions |
| 21:54.05 | JefferyM | it has to do them for spawns |
| 21:54.20 | JefferyM | it just dosn't do them for player movement |
| 21:54.21 | JefferyM | but it could |
| 21:54.32 | JefferyM | it's got the guts for that now |
| 22:01.44 | JefferyM | the harder question is how do you handle the case where dave can't do that, and make it look good |
| 22:06.41 | *** join/#bzflag R0b0t1 (~Enigma@unaffiliated/r0b0t1) |
| 22:20.15 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: heh, can't win them all |
| 22:20.50 | brlcad | especially when you're snowed in several feet of snow and spend all day shoveling, and there are a couple more feet on the way ;) |
| 22:21.27 | JefferyM | it's a nice 60deg here :) |
| 22:22.32 | JefferyM | oh, and can anyone thing of a good way to beat the crap out of http://my.bzflag.mobi/db/ and it's associated services to simulate real use? |
| 22:22.32 | JefferyM | blast007 got a copy of most services moved over for testing. |
| 22:38.40 | *** part/#bzflag Upsetter1 (~Ups@89.246.214.141) |
| 22:53.51 | thefirstdude | I have a problem...I can't tell wheather someone did a flag drop because they are just about to die or not |
| 22:54.12 | thefirstdude | so I keep giving them their flag back. |
| 22:54.46 | thefirstdude | wait...maybe I am confused |
| 22:57.01 | JefferyM | I don't see anything in gotBlowedUp that sends a drop message |
| 22:57.22 | JefferyM | ahh there it is |
| 22:57.26 | JefferyM | yeah client sends one |
| 22:57.31 | JefferyM | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:59.32 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart2@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
| 22:59.32 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 23:08.01 | *** join/#bzflag jomojo (~jomojo@cpe-76-184-20-22.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 23:10.20 | thefirstdude | I now have all bases covered, from the time you join you are stuck with thief |
| 23:10.50 | thefirstdude | if you are shot you get ur team flag...meaning you have the ball |
| 23:10.57 | thefirstdude | or a ball |
| 23:16.26 | thefirstdude | if you shoot a bullet and do not team flag you are ignored |
| 23:26.46 | thefirstdude | I am having trouble finding where TeamColor's options are |
| 23:27.02 | thefirstdude | like what it is set to |
| 23:28.22 | *** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@c-98-244-158-51.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 23:29.44 | blast007 | thefirstdude: what a player's team is, you mean? |
| 23:31.33 | thefirstdude | flag.flagType can equal Flags::Stealth or Flags::Cloaking |
| 23:31.34 | *** join/#bzflag jomojo (~jomojo@cpe-76-184-20-22.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 23:31.45 | thefirstdude | what would player.getTeam() equal |
| 23:35.52 | blast007 | check the function definition |
| 23:41.04 | JefferyM | TeamColor and Flags are not the same enum |
| 23:41.10 | JefferyM | Flags arn't even enums |
| 23:41.13 | JefferyM | they are static objects |
| 23:41.57 | JefferyM | you'd have to map from teamcolor to flag |
| 23:42.01 | JefferyM | as not all teams have flags |
| 23:42.25 | thefirstdude | well, I tried RedTeam and it works |
| 23:42.32 | thefirstdude | I couldn't find it |
| 23:42.35 | JefferyM | as a flag type? |
| 23:42.43 | thefirstdude | as a TeamColor |
| 23:42.53 | blast007 | too hard to use grep? |
| 23:42.53 | JefferyM | yeah that's a team color |
| 23:43.03 | thefirstdude | I use grep... |
| 23:43.21 | thefirstdude | anyway...is there a way to turn of death on tk |
| 23:43.21 | JefferyM | the function returns a teamcolor enum, find the definition of the team color enum and you'll find all it's values |
| 23:43.31 | JefferyM | not in 2.0.x |
| 23:43.33 | thefirstdude | I know!! I looked for it |
| 23:43.44 | JefferyM | it's an option in 3 |
| 23:43.49 | blast007 | you mean where the one who killed someone doesn't dies? |
| 23:43.49 | thefirstdude | damn, that makes my whole game not work |
| 23:43.59 | thefirstdude | yeh |
| 23:44.03 | blast007 | the -tk option |
| 23:44.07 | thefirstdude | oh :) |
| 23:44.15 | JefferyM | isn't that only in 3? |
| 23:44.18 | blast007 | the one they shot will still die |
| 23:44.28 | JefferyM | ohh the donkey kill |
| 23:44.30 | thefirstdude | this is cool..exactly what I want |
| 23:44.37 | blast007 | JefferyM: hehe, yeah ;) |
| 23:45.22 | JefferyM | bet his scoreboard is gonna be wonkey with all these death and respawns :) |
| 23:45.41 | blast007 | probably |
| 23:45.51 | thefirstdude | but I don't want to be hearing donkey sounds all day... |
| 23:45.58 | blast007 | thefirstdude: can't avoid that part |
| 23:46.04 | blast007 | unless you make everyone rogues |
| 23:46.05 | blast007 | ;) |
| 23:46.32 | thefirstdude | the server has custom control over scoreboard |
| 23:46.44 | thefirstdude | MsgScore |
| 23:46.44 | blast007 | not the player scores |
| 23:46.53 | JefferyM | thefirstdude, nope |
| 23:46.57 | thefirstdude | ? |
| 23:47.11 | blast007 | your own score is tracked by your client |
| 23:47.13 | JefferyM | a cleint will inore updates to his own score |
| 23:47.19 | JefferyM | ignore even |
| 23:47.29 | thefirstdude | that is dumb |
| 23:47.30 | JefferyM | thats why the API for it was removed |
| 23:47.46 | thefirstdude | it doesn't ignore the fact that it never requested to spawn, but it spawns anyway |
| 23:47.46 | JefferyM | it is just the way bzflag was writen |
| 23:47.53 | blast007 | thefirstdude: so? |
| 23:47.59 | blast007 | doesn't mean it all works that way |
| 23:48.14 | thefirstdude | it never said, I want flag...it just said...oh, ok |
| 23:48.25 | JefferyM | bzflag is very old |
| 23:48.26 | blast007 | "doesn't mean it all works that way" |
| 23:48.38 | JefferyM | and was made as a LAN game at first |
| 23:48.41 | thefirstdude | I am going to test it really quick |
| 23:48.50 | blast007 | have fun |
| 23:51.35 | JefferyM | you don't have to |
| 23:51.42 | JefferyM | look at the code in playing.cxx |
| 23:51.43 | JefferyM | int i = lookupPlayerIndex(id); |
| 23:51.44 | JefferyM | if (i >= 0) |
| 23:52.02 | JefferyM | lookupPlayerIndex() returns -2 for mytank |
| 23:53.18 | JefferyM | oddly bzadmin does track it properly |
| 23:56.26 | blast007 | a bzadmin player won't have a score though :) |
| 23:56.27 | thefirstdude | every time I make an edit I forget ;'s |
| 23:56.33 | thefirstdude | crazy stuff |
| 23:56.40 | JefferyM | blast007, probably not, but if it did it would work |
| 23:56.54 | JefferyM | thefirstdude, that'd be what you learn in the C++ tutorials |
| 23:58.51 | blast007 | JefferyM: well right. but they'd have to modify the source to change the team it joined as - so it's a moot point some someone could just as easily make the client allow updates to their score ;) |
| 23:59.14 | JefferyM | heh |
| 23:59.21 | thefirstdude | is there a /localset I can do to turn off donkey |
| 23:59.26 | blast007 | no |
| 23:59.38 | thefirstdude | JefferyM, it is habbit over knowledge |
| 23:59.49 | blast007 | there is one way though |
| 23:59.54 | blast007 | rm killteam.wav |