| 00:05.52 | *** join/#bzflag kierra (n=jolie@unaffiliated/kierra) |
| 00:06.10 | kierra | brlcad! |
| 00:08.10 | kierra | has a bone to pick w/brlcad |
| 00:14.22 | spldart | is picking bones outta his well grilled pork chops |
| 01:28.01 | brlcad | kierra: que? |
| 01:35.20 | kierra | dos cosas |
| 01:35.53 | kierra | ahora mismo me acuerdo de uno |
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| 03:12.26 | spldart | que' |
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| 03:13.10 | spldart | no habla espaƱol |
| 03:13.18 | spldart | tee heee |
| 03:13.44 | spldart | passes out from to many cerveses |
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| 03:49.52 | AAA_awright | Anyone know who uid125564 is? http://bzflag.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bzflag/bzflag/TODO?annotate=1.147 (SVN 4168) |
| 03:51.51 | blast007 | why? |
| 03:52.36 | AAA_awright | I have been browsing through the commits, and it isn't a sourceforge.net user |
| 03:55.58 | AAA_awright | It may not even be a username, but the result of a corrupt UID field that CVS uses? idk anything about CVS internals. |
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| 04:00.25 | blast007 | yeah, not sure |
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| 04:52.51 | CIA-60 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19775 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/SceneRenderer.cxx: * made debugLinkDraw more interesting |
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| 09:34.23 | Constitution | someone ping me a day or two ago? my backlog doesn't reach |
| 09:59.10 | AAA_awright | [14:17:21] <Abominable> Constitution: mrapplecomputer1 was caught in one of your range bans |
| 10:18.25 | Constitution | thx |
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| 18:09.07 | JefferyM | a_meteorite, geez you coudn't have just asked someone to take it down? you had to pull a DMCA ? |
| 18:10.33 | JefferyM | TimRiker, I think it's basicly an issue between the two of them as they colaborated on the map |
| 18:11.19 | kierra | brlcad, you are too funny! |
| 18:29.44 | JefferyM | Winny, you arround? |
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| 18:47.51 | Winny | JefferyM: now I am |
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| 19:03.57 | a_meteorite | JefferyM: uh, yeah.. and I'm the one in charge of the map |
| 19:04.33 | a_meteorite | although after we stopped actively working on it BinarySpike's been desperate to release it |
| 19:05.41 | a_meteorite | ah, got a reply from TimRiker.. |
| 19:06.46 | TimRiker | a_meteorite: as in the email, you are claiming _exclusive_ ownership. my understanding is that this is not the case. |
| 19:07.07 | a_meteorite | I am 100% certain the map that BinarySpike posted is not the *original* |
| 19:07.36 | TimRiker | a_meteorite: is the one he posted _exclusively_ yours? |
| 19:07.42 | a_meteorite | I quite clearly remember certain portions of those map in that post not in his original that was modified from |
| 19:07.45 | a_meteorite | yes |
| 19:08.01 | a_meteorite | since that is not the *very original* |
| 19:08.26 | TimRiker | they you are saying that he created nothing in the posted map? (excepting the header) |
| 19:08.35 | TimRiker | s/they/then/ |
| 19:09.18 | a_meteorite | not nothing, but that version I have the exclusive rights to. we agreed on that I'd do everything when it comes to the map (hosting, licensing, final say, etc). |
| 19:09.25 | TimRiker | my the way, I emailed him, but have not heard back yet. I am interested to hear all I can from anyone interested. |
| 19:10.10 | TimRiker | do you have any record of that agreement? irc logs, emails, etc? |
| 19:10.49 | a_meteorite | quite a few players from that time have probably seen conversations regarding this.. AAA_awright can affirm this |
| 19:11.08 | a_meteorite | I'd have to dig quite a few backups/logs for anything else |
| 19:11.28 | a_meteorite | AAA_awright also collaborated on this since it was a BZFX project |
| 19:11.49 | CBG | Good luck suing someone with no proof. |
| 19:11.58 | a_meteorite | I never said anything about suing anyone. |
| 19:12.14 | a_meteorite | I just think it's right that it's taken down. |
| 19:13.19 | brad | wow |
| 19:13.43 | TimRiker | I hear that. I'm just seeing that one of the apparent joint authors has a different opinion. I'm trying to fairly hear the sides of the debate. Any written emails showing prior agreement would be very useful. |
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| 19:16.05 | a_meteorite | I see in my emails supporting evidence that I am the owner of Boxy War, I think most conversations with Binary were over IM and BZFlag |
| 19:16.55 | a_meteorite | For instance, daniel jackson who started hosting the map and then later apologized that he did not get permission from me (it was well known that I held the rights to Boxy in those days) |
| 19:18.04 | TimRiker | nods |
| 19:18.38 | TimRiker | I don't recall ever talking to binary on irc. As I mentioned, still waiting to hear back from him in email. |
| 19:19.02 | a_meteorite | Do you want a fwd of any e-mails/other logs? |
| 19:19.08 | TimRiker | did you ask him to take down the bb post already? if so, what was the reply if any? |
| 19:19.26 | TimRiker | sure. anything relevant would be great. |
| 19:19.29 | a_meteorite | I didn't ask, my IM client was acting up weird and I'm not crazy about PMs |
| 19:19.40 | TimRiker | k |
| 19:19.41 | a_meteorite | I could ask him through a PM and see what he says |
| 19:21.12 | TimRiker | if he would voluntarily take it down, that certainly would be easier than continuing down this road. You might also ask him to make a statement as to the licensing of what he has up now. It's posted as being GPL3 atm. |
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| 19:21.57 | TimRiker | so in theory anyone can grab what's there now and re-post later claiming that binary allowed it. |
| 19:23.09 | TimRiker | We do NOT archive all logs as to who downloaded what. Some of that could be searched for, but it may be incomplete, and it'd not trivial. |
| 19:23.28 | TimRiker | s/it'd/it's/ ugh. |
| 19:24.23 | a_meteorite | Right, which is why I wanted it down as soon as possible. |
| 19:25.31 | a_meteorite | the only reason I'm doing this is because in the past Boxy War was being abused and still can.. which is the partial reason why it was agreed I had the rights of the map |
| 19:25.43 | a_meteorite | it devalues the name of the map and BZFX |
| 19:30.13 | JefferyM | a_meteorite, what license did binary spike give you the map under? |
| 19:30.27 | a_meteorite | just the full rights, there was no open source license |
| 19:30.37 | JefferyM | did he explicidly give you full rights? |
| 19:30.40 | a_meteorite | yes |
| 19:30.46 | JefferyM | you have that in writing? |
| 19:30.53 | a_meteorite | the licensing for Boxy War is closed, I make deals in private with whoever wants to host it or do other things |
| 19:31.06 | JefferyM | I am not asking about what you did with your fork of the map |
| 19:31.17 | a_meteorite | this is not the very original map as he claims |
| 19:31.25 | JefferyM | I am asking about what explicit rights were granted to you from the map's author |
| 19:31.25 | a_meteorite | which means he doesn't have the rights to it |
| 19:31.35 | a_meteorite | all rights |
| 19:31.37 | JefferyM | let me know when you want to talk and we can talk |
| 19:31.43 | JefferyM | since you seem to be not listenting |
| 19:32.08 | JefferyM | I have not mentioned anything about your current request, or the map that he has posted |
| 19:32.17 | a_meteorite | I'll find some logs to support it then |
| 19:32.25 | JefferyM | again you are not listening |
| 19:32.46 | a_meteorite | what are you asking for then? |
| 19:32.54 | JefferyM | you were granted a licnese (closed) by binary spike for the map back in 2005, correct? |
| 19:32.59 | a_meteorite | yes |
| 19:33.06 | JefferyM | what were the terms of that license? |
| 19:33.13 | JefferyM | and do you have any record of them? |
| 19:33.18 | a_meteorite | I was given full rights to the map, I became the owner of it |
| 19:33.30 | a_meteorite | I do in a log somewhere most likely, if I don't then the conversation happened over BZFlag |
| 19:33.33 | JefferyM | he transfered copyruight to you? |
| 19:33.44 | a_meteorite | although AAA_awright would have likely seen it in such a case |
| 19:33.44 | a_meteorite | yes |
| 19:33.44 | JefferyM | I would very much like to see proof of that |
| 19:33.57 | JefferyM | given his current actions I find that highly doubtfull |
| 19:34.05 | JefferyM | I have an email out to him to find out what he says |
| 19:34.35 | JefferyM | if you can find your copy of the copyright transfer I would like to see it |
| 19:34.45 | JefferyM | and corolate it with what he feels he granted you. |
| 19:35.18 | a_meteorite | So why doesn't BinarySpike has to initially prove he owns the map when he posts it and I instead have to prove that I own it in turn? |
| 19:35.42 | JefferyM | because we have history that says he owned it forst |
| 19:35.44 | JefferyM | first |
| 19:35.50 | a_meteorite | Okay. |
| 19:35.51 | JefferyM | the wiki says he's the origonal author |
| 19:36.08 | JefferyM | the wiki does not say that copyright was transfered to you |
| 19:36.16 | JefferyM | the only person that says that is you |
| 19:36.35 | JefferyM | we all felt that he simply gave you a closed personal use license |
| 19:36.42 | JefferyM | not a copyright transfer |
| 19:36.45 | JefferyM | they are very different things |
| 19:36.50 | a_meteorite | The only thing the wiki says is the original map was created by BinarySpike |
| 19:36.55 | JefferyM | yes |
| 19:36.58 | a_meteorite | I'm saying that his post is not of the original map |
| 19:36.58 | JefferyM | that means author |
| 19:37.04 | JefferyM | ok |
| 19:37.08 | JefferyM | so he modified his copy |
| 19:37.13 | JefferyM | it's not your exact map is it? |
| 19:37.35 | JefferyM | it's also possible that the license he granted you required all mods to be turned over to him |
| 19:37.37 | a_meteorite | Not exact, but it's an early revision of my map |
| 19:37.47 | JefferyM | this is why I wish to see your license with him |
| 19:38.02 | JefferyM | you were the one that wanted to go down the copyruight road |
| 19:38.21 | JefferyM | so we are going to go down there, even if it dosn't work out in your best interestes |
| 19:38.33 | a_meteorite | I've sent a PM to BinarySpike to see if he'll willingly take it down instead |
| 19:38.40 | JefferyM | at present I am tempted to delist all boxwars maps, yours and his |
| 19:38.43 | brad | ~bzmp |
| 19:38.43 | ibot | rogue, red, green, blue, purple, observer |
| 19:39.12 | JefferyM | I am not convinced that you had the actual rights you feel you had when you got it from him |
| 19:39.24 | JefferyM | the term "take over" is not the same as a copyright transfer |
| 19:39.56 | JefferyM | as an example, when Chris turned over bzflag to TimRiker he gave Tim a very specific copyright transfer |
| 19:40.30 | JefferyM | tim is not sing bzflag under any kind of open source licnese from Chris, but Tim now owns it, and can license it as he sees fit. |
| 19:40.31 | a_meteorite | I understand, which is why I'll look for logs |
| 19:40.54 | JefferyM | There will need to be very specific wording in those logs, that he agrees to |
| 19:41.34 | JefferyM | in the end, since he's the origonal author, it is up to you to prove that you have a rock solid license. THere can be nothing implied. |
| 19:41.56 | JefferyM | the only implied rights for copyright are that all rights are reserved to the author or copyright holder. |
| 19:42.21 | JefferyM | so, are you 100% sure you want to go down this path? |
| 19:42.46 | JefferyM | since it may turn out that you may be the copyright violator. |
| 19:43.03 | a_meteorite | I'll await for Binary's reply before continuing |
| 19:43.37 | JefferyM | as it stands now for our respoinsiblity, we have been shown that he is the author, so he he can relicense the map as he sees fit. It is up to you to prove that he does not have that right. |
| 19:44.04 | a_meteorite | It may be a misunderstanding between me and Binary in which case I need to talk to him.. though I am 100% certain rights where transferred to me, the logs may not exist anymore because of where they took place and that is not sufficient for you |
| 19:44.10 | JefferyM | I also am somewhat dismayed that you would revert to a DMCA first before just trying to talk to the guy |
| 19:44.32 | a_meteorite | I wasn't sure the best course to take since Binary has pulled things similar to this before |
| 19:44.43 | JefferyM | I Have never seen a DMCA from him |
| 19:45.03 | a_meteorite | We hashed it out in private, although I always felt he'd try to do it again |
| 19:45.18 | JefferyM | please work it out with him. if he did transfer copyright then he'll pull it |
| 19:45.31 | JefferyM | if he did not, then you need to evaluate your use of what he has granted you. |
| 19:46.24 | a_meteorite | I have to be ready for college and I'm waiting for Binary's reply. You don't need to do anything at this time. |
| 19:46.36 | a_meteorite | Maybe me and him can work it out and we'll let you know what happens |
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| 19:46.49 | JefferyM | as far as I can see, the only one trying to "pull something" is you, as it does look like you may be trying to wrest copyright away from him. |
| 19:47.05 | JefferyM | there is no maybe, there is. The license deal was between the two of you |
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| 19:47.16 | JefferyM | bzflag is not a copyright agency |
| 19:47.26 | a_meteorite | There is no intention to do such. |
| 19:47.43 | a_meteorite | And just to be clear.. it wasn't licensed to me. I was given the ownership of it. |
| 19:47.58 | JefferyM | you claim ownership of a work that we are hosting now. Yet there is no proof of said ownership, and admision on your part that the author is him. |
| 19:48.05 | JefferyM | a_meteorite, that is what you say |
| 19:48.08 | JefferyM | but there is no record of that |
| 19:48.30 | JefferyM | you do not seem to have anything to back up your claim of copyright transfer |
| 19:48.33 | a_meteorite | The very original map was authored by him, however this is not the very original map |
| 19:48.35 | a_meteorite | Right, but Binary and others know it so I want to see if he'll fix it |
| 19:48.42 | JefferyM | yes this is a derived work |
| 19:48.45 | JefferyM | a right he would have to grant you |
| 19:49.44 | JefferyM | we'll see what binary says for the rights he granted you. |
| 19:49.55 | a_meteorite | Ownership, but OK. |
| 19:49.57 | Think_Differentl | you can't say something is yours when you have no proof. i could say i wrote all of bzflag, but since there is proof, i can't. |
| 19:49.57 | JefferyM | if they do not match with the rights you feel you have, then you must take it up in court |
| 19:50.06 | CBG | If he gave you ownership of (for arguments sake) version 3 of the map, surely version 2 is still his and only his. |
| 19:50.08 | JefferyM | ownership is the right of copyright |
| 19:50.15 | a_meteorite | Think_Differentl: As neither can Binary.. he's claiming the map is his as well |
| 19:50.34 | CBG | He created it, so unless you can prove otherwise, _of course_ it is his. |
| 19:50.45 | a_meteorite | The original. |
| 19:50.48 | JefferyM | CBG, it call comes down to this suposed copyright transfer |
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| 19:50.58 | JefferyM | the rest is conjecture untill that is worked out |
| 19:51.17 | JefferyM | as it stands, the map stays untill we hear from binary |
| 19:51.23 | CBG | But as I understand it, this is not the version of the map that a_meteorite owns, he even said so himself. |
| 19:51.24 | JefferyM | that's it |
| 19:51.32 | a_meteorite | I did not say that. |
| 19:51.32 | Think_Differentl | even if you did issue a DMCA, someone could resist and refuse to take it down. if a lawsuit was brought, you couldn't defend your position since there was no explicit license or copyright registeration |
| 19:51.40 | JefferyM | CBG, that all depends on when copyright was transfered |
| 19:52.09 | a_meteorite | Think_Differentl: technically, the DMCA should have been forwarded to Binary as I know the DMCA laws |
| 19:52.15 | a_meteorite | since the BZBB is a service |
| 19:52.26 | a_meteorite | then the service provider would take it down and Binary would have a chance to contest |
| 19:52.36 | JefferyM | a_meteorite, we are not required to take it down |
| 19:52.53 | JefferyM | if we did not, and it was shown that you really do have the rights you assert, you coudl sue us |
| 19:53.13 | a_meteorite | Right |
| 19:53.19 | JefferyM | we have received your notice and have taken it into consideration |
| 19:53.24 | a_meteorite | Anyways, that's how I understand the DMCA, but I'm not asking for anything to be done until Binary gets back to me |
| 19:53.51 | JefferyM | no on a personal note, I can't see how anyone in there right mind would EVER give you hosting again after this thing. |
| 19:54.07 | JefferyM | now not no :) |
| 19:54.11 | a_meteorite | Actually I have hosting arranged.. :) |
| 19:54.20 | JefferyM | hope it has a list server |
| 19:54.28 | a_meteorite | Why's that? |
| 19:54.44 | Think_Differentl | even if a_met did try to take down via DMCA, you could just refuse |
| 19:54.56 | JefferyM | the DMCA is just a notice |
| 19:55.03 | JefferyM | he would have to apply it in a court of law |
| 19:55.04 | Think_Differentl | DMCA doesn't make _everyone_ shake in their boots, epecially if you have no power to back it up |
| 19:55.17 | JefferyM | we will respect the copyright holders wishes |
| 19:55.21 | a_meteorite | JefferyM: Why do I need a list server? |
| 19:55.29 | CBG | a_meteorite: can you afford to pay the fees if this were to go to court? |
| 19:55.37 | a_meteorite | CBG: I don't pay for fees for court |
| 19:55.38 | Think_Differentl | he can't actually sue anyone, since the copyright doesn't comply with section 411a of the copyright act. |
| 19:55.39 | a_meteorite | Court is free for me |
| 19:55.39 | JefferyM | just right now there is no clear indication of who the copyright holder is. |
| 19:55.49 | JefferyM | a_meteorite, if you win |
| 19:55.52 | a_meteorite | Nope. |
| 19:56.09 | JefferyM | well if you loose, then you get your butt countersuid :) |
| 19:56.12 | a_meteorite | The court filing fees and whatnot are free because of my income |
| 19:56.20 | CBG | lack of* |
| 19:56.23 | JefferyM | mostly the mean the lawer |
| 19:56.36 | CBG | Wait, are you not a minor anymore? |
| 19:56.43 | a_meteorite | Not anymore |
| 19:56.46 | JefferyM | oh that's right |
| 19:56.55 | a_meteorite | JefferyM: Anyways, why is it that I need a list server? |
| 19:56.56 | JefferyM | you were a minor when rights were granted to you? |
| 19:57.16 | JefferyM | cus that just may make the entire thing moot |
| 19:57.23 | JefferyM | nether you nor binary can engage in a contract |
| 19:57.26 | JefferyM | verbal or otherwise |
| 19:57.29 | JefferyM | if you are minors |
| 19:57.34 | a_meteorite | And he was a minor as well |
| 19:57.35 | Think_Differentl | in the meantime, if it does get taken down, i'm willing to host. |
| 19:57.38 | JefferyM | yeah so he owns it |
| 19:58.03 | JefferyM | he can not legagly transfer copyright to you with out hisand your parents concent ;) |
| 19:58.03 | CBG | Ooops... did I say the wrong thing? |
| 19:58.34 | a_meteorite | Think_Differentl: It's not being hosted on a server, though I've been making arrangements for it to be hosted |
| 19:58.37 | Think_Differentl | apparently, good job CBG :P |
| 19:58.52 | CBG | Think_Differentl: Oh dear. |
| 19:58.52 | Think_Differentl | a_meteorite, http://oahin.com/shedelj/boxywar.bzw |
| 19:59.29 | JefferyM | a_meteorite, who is daniel jackson? |
| 19:59.33 | a_meteorite | He's a player |
| 19:59.40 | JefferyM | that is not proof |
| 19:59.42 | a_meteorite | Used to host a server at a time too |
| 19:59.46 | JefferyM | the player could have been misinformed |
| 19:59.50 | a_meteorite | I never said it was *proof*, just corroborating evidence |
| 20:00.03 | JefferyM | did binary inform him of the copyright transfer or did just tell the player that you owned it? |
| 20:00.21 | a_meteorite | Like I said, it was quite well known I owned it |
| 20:00.23 | JefferyM | you pose it as evedence |
| 20:00.32 | a_meteorite | I didn't have to tell people I was |
| 20:00.35 | JefferyM | well known is not the same as law |
| 20:00.35 | Think_Differentl | quite well known isn't actual proof |
| 20:00.42 | a_meteorite | I never claimed it was proof |
| 20:00.55 | JefferyM | corroborating evidence is generaly considred a form of proof |
| 20:01.12 | JefferyM | please find us your copryright transfer agreement |
| 20:01.55 | a_meteorite | Now that you bring to light the thing about minors, it doesn't exist |
| 20:02.07 | a_meteorite | I retract my DMCA notice and am quite sorry |
| 20:02.08 | JefferyM | then copyright was never transfered |
| 20:02.13 | JefferyM | ok, thank you |
| 20:02.18 | a_meteorite | I'll see if me and Binary can work it out for good will |
| 20:02.29 | JefferyM | good will would be open sourceing your changes |
| 20:02.48 | Think_Differentl | seeing as you don't have a host, nor have you had a host for a long time |
| 20:03.04 | a_meteorite | Think_Differentl: Actually I do have a host.. |
| 20:03.06 | Think_Differentl | it wasn't like you were making an income off the map anyway |
| 20:03.10 | a_meteorite | I just need to spend the 3 hours setting it up :) |
| 20:03.17 | a_meteorite | It was never about income |
| 20:03.36 | a_meteorite | It was about protecting the name of the map, Boxy has been abused a few times |
| 20:03.48 | a_meteorite | Anyways, we should take this chat elsewhere. Not relevant to BZFlag anymore. |
| 20:03.48 | JefferyM | the name? |
| 20:03.54 | a_meteorite | No, the actual map |
| 20:03.57 | JefferyM | the copyright is for the map file |
| 20:04.16 | Think_Differentl | you would need a trademark for the name |
| 20:04.17 | a_meteorite | I recall one person who modified it, claimed it as their own, and made threats against me.. |
| 20:04.28 | a_meteorite | Though that's history |
| 20:04.31 | a_meteorite | Think_Differentl: #bzfx |
| 20:04.34 | JefferyM | just as you have made threats against others? |
| 20:04.55 | Think_Differentl | a_meteorite, I may speak in this channel, the discussion still relates to bzflag. |
| 20:05.19 | a_meteorite | I really don't think we should continue this topic, it doesn't matter since no matter what it's invalid |
| 20:05.47 | JefferyM | so you make a big deal about it, find out you are wrong, then try to silence it? |
| 20:05.55 | JefferyM | nice... |
| 20:06.09 | a_meteorite | There's no point on continuing a conversation that has no constructive use |
| 20:06.23 | JefferyM | in the future could you please refrain from involving the bzflag project in your personal grudges? |
| 20:06.25 | a_meteorite | I was wrong, I'm sorry for the inconvenience |
| 20:06.27 | Think_Differentl | there was no point in starting a conversation that had no constructive use either |
| 20:06.34 | a_meteorite | It was *not* a personal grudge, let that be clear |
| 20:06.48 | JefferyM | it is constriuctive as an example to those who may want to transfer copyright |
| 20:06.52 | JefferyM | get that stuff in writing. |
| 20:06.56 | a_meteorite | Indeed |
| 20:07.02 | JefferyM | the further from the author a work goes, the harder it is to defend. |
| 20:07.26 | CBG | Author. There's a novel idea. |
| 20:07.37 | JefferyM | and it's all compounded by the fact that most of you are kids |
| 20:07.42 | JefferyM | pretending to be adults. |
| 20:08.09 | CBG | "you"? There's only two of them involved, JefferyM, and they were both kids at the time, for sure. ;) |
| 20:08.33 | a_meteorite | That is true CBG |
| 20:08.39 | JefferyM | CBG, in this specific case. |
| 20:08.54 | JefferyM | this is not an isolated incedent. |
| 20:09.08 | CBG | Boys will be boys. |
| 20:09.23 | *** join/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-074-160.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 20:09.26 | JefferyM | that they will |
| 20:10.09 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-074-160.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
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| 20:18.07 | kierra_away | boys may be boys, but it's an adult's job to help them become men |
| 20:18.36 | JefferyM | kierra_away, you mean parrent |
| 20:19.31 | kierra_away | true, but while parents dont act alone...they could use support |
| 20:19.38 | JefferyM | indeed |
| 20:19.47 | JefferyM | but that is volenteer work, not a job ;) |
| 20:20.08 | kierra_away | it doesnt take a village to raise a child? |
| 20:20.18 | kierra_away | is going to be quiet |
| 20:20.26 | kierra_away | JefferyM: you scare me |
| 20:20.30 | JefferyM | depends on how you raise it ;) |
| 20:20.57 | JefferyM | tho you are very correct, in the previous case I think the main cause is that there were not enough other people involved in the raising. |
| 20:21.09 | kierra_away | sad, but true |
| 20:21.25 | kierra_away | i hope my barons stand out as good kids |
| 20:21.52 | JefferyM | have any of them tried to engage in a contract before they were 18? ;) |
| 20:22.22 | kierra_away | not to my knowledge, but i find out more things everyday |
| 20:22.26 | JefferyM | heh |
| 20:22.35 | JefferyM | "what... one of you bought ford!?" |
| 20:23.38 | CBG | That could only be one baron. |
| 20:24.02 | kierra_away | ahem, we usually buy ford |
| 20:24.11 | JefferyM | I'm so sorry |
| 20:24.14 | kierra_away | is that like saying 'MS" in here |
| 20:24.25 | CBG | The company? :P |
| 20:24.26 | JefferyM | I was meaning the entire compay |
| 20:24.48 | JefferyM | has not had good luck with american cars |
| 20:24.51 | kierra_away | i learned years ago not to mention windows....now I shall add ford to that list |
| 20:25.18 | CBG | Be glad you didn't bring up baked beans! *shudder* |
| 20:25.22 | JefferyM | loved his mitsu truck |
| 20:25.40 | kierra_away | hugs brlcad & Manu |
| 20:26.15 | CBG | would settle for anything with wheels and a working engine for his 21st. |
| 20:26.32 | JefferyM | so save up and buy a beater ;) |
| 20:26.41 | CBG | Save what? :P |
| 20:26.44 | *** join/#bzflag jft-away (n=jftsang@80-46-78-71.static.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 20:26.57 | JefferyM | the money you get from working ;) |
| 20:26.59 | kierra_away | drives a 250, 4door ford truck, extended bed |
| 20:27.39 | CBG | JefferyM: Money from working < Rent + Food :P |
| 20:27.45 | CBG | Donations welcome. |
| 20:28.02 | brlcad | hugs kierra_away |
| 20:28.05 | JefferyM | then you need to work somewhere that gets you more ;) |
| 20:28.22 | kierra_away | brlcad, you are to funny with your comments! |
| 20:28.31 | JefferyM | all of the problems have solutions, you just have to execute them. |
| 20:28.33 | CBG | Hard to do with current qualifications and lack of experience. |
| 20:28.47 | JefferyM | I'm sure there are ways, you just have to find them. |
| 20:29.01 | CBG | I'm sure the most obvious way is to be less of a lazy ass. ;) |
| 20:29.13 | JefferyM | that would help yes. |
| 20:29.27 | brlcad | kierra, I know not what you speak of! :) |
| 20:29.35 | CBG | But, I enjoy foosball so much! |
| 20:30.00 | Manu | hugs kierra |
| 20:35.14 | kierra | you say yes to foosball, you're saying no to job opportunities |
| 20:35.43 | brlcad | maybe as a foosball manufacturer |
| 20:43.27 | CBG | What if foosball _is_ a job opportunity? :P |
| 20:44.15 | JefferyM | then you are incredebly lucky |
| 20:44.25 | CBG | s/lucky/good/. |
| 20:44.46 | JefferyM | what's the average pay for a professional foosball player? |
| 20:44.58 | CBG | No pay, just prizes... |
| 20:45.15 | JefferyM | that's still efectivly your pay |
| 20:46.43 | CBG | The last big event in the USA that I am aware of, total prizefund of over $50,000. |
| 20:47.00 | JefferyM | and that is once a year? |
| 20:47.39 | CBG | Nah, events like that probably more like 10 times a year. |
| 20:48.01 | JefferyM | not a bad living if you can win it all :) |
| 20:48.05 | JefferyM | and liquidate it |
| 20:48.32 | CBG | Yeah, if you're _very good_, you could take $10l/mo playing foosball. |
| 20:48.41 | CBG | And by _very good_ I mean _the best_. |
| 20:48.41 | JefferyM | heh |
| 20:48.52 | CBG | $10k*. |
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| 21:17.26 | TimRiker | reads the backlog and laments |
| 21:20.23 | JefferyM | they are going to resolve the issues personaly TimRiker |
| 21:20.32 | JefferyM | as it should be :) |
| 21:21.11 | TimRiker | yes, the outcome looks promising, just the road to get there is/was painful. |
| 21:22.28 | JefferyM | TimRiker, yes sadly it was |
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| 22:19.17 | kierra | brlcad: ping |
| 22:19.22 | brlcad | kierra: pong |
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| 23:05.33 | JefferyM | is very glad to get to the bottom of the boxywar misunderstanding :) |
| 23:06.29 | kierra | |o/ |
| 23:07.16 | CBG | Misunderstanding?! Heh. |
| 23:07.32 | CBG | "My daddy's gonna sue your daddy!" |
| 23:08.02 | JefferyM | it really was |
| 23:08.19 | JefferyM | a_meteorite misunderstood the rights he was granted by the author. |
| 23:09.03 | JefferyM | the boxywar map that is on bzbb has been released under GPL and is usable by anyone. |
| 23:09.17 | JefferyM | so host em if ya got emm |
| 23:09.29 | CBG | He misunderstood the part of the law that says "You must be an adult to make any legally binding contract with anyone else.". |
| 23:09.50 | JefferyM | nope |
| 23:09.56 | JefferyM | no contract was ever offered or issued |
| 23:10.00 | JefferyM | so that never came into play |
| 23:10.47 | CBG | But the whole argument, spanning several hours on this channel, could have been avoided if that mistake had not been made. ;) |
| 23:11.26 | JefferyM | if met had understand the rights he had been granted, then not just that conversion but many others with people about boxywar could have been resolved much quicker |
| 23:11.45 | JefferyM | acording to the author he was given rights to host the map with specific conditions, that is all |
| 23:12.13 | trepan | so BinarySpike is no longer a minor? |
| 23:12.30 | JefferyM | mether of them are as far as I can tell |
| 23:13.04 | JefferyM | this deal was all made back in 2005, so 4 years have passed |
| 23:13.59 | JefferyM | but yeah even that license met got a long time ago is probably dubious |
| 23:14.06 | JefferyM | from a legal standpoint |
| 23:14.27 | *** join/#bzflag BinarySpike (n=BinarySp@074-050-159-044.plateautel.net) |
| 23:16.39 | trepan | BinarySpike: 20:12 <+trepan> so BinarySpike is no longer a minor? (were your ears burning? ... 4 minutes ago) |
| 23:17.11 | JefferyM | I was talking to him on IM and mentioned IRC ;) |
| 23:24.43 | CBG | Freeze! |
| 23:25.48 | *** join/#bzflag mrapplecomputer1 (n=admin@c-69-180-173-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 23:26.11 | mrapplecomputer1 | Is there anyone here who would be willing to answer some general questions about groups? |
| 23:26.26 | JefferyM | user groups or map groups? |
| 23:26.43 | mrapplecomputer1 | user i believe |
| 23:26.52 | JefferyM | whacha need to know? |
| 23:27.38 | mrapplecomputer1 | ok, so i own some groups, apple.admin, apple.cop and apple.owner |
| 23:28.02 | mrapplecomputer1 | if i have a server, how do i "apply" these groups to that sever? |
| 23:32.14 | mrapplecomputer1 | ok anyone? |
| 23:32.41 | Bambino_ | sure |
| 23:32.43 | Bambino_ | hold on |
| 23:32.43 | JefferyM | dude chill |
| 23:32.56 | JefferyM | you add them to your group config |
| 23:33.04 | JefferyM | with whatever permisions you want each group to have |
| 23:33.07 | Bambino_ | We're not all on caffeine :) |
| 23:33.13 | JefferyM | then you add people to the groups from bzbb |
| 23:33.17 | Thumper_ | but some of us are :) |
| 23:33.24 | *** part/#bzflag mrapplecomputer1 (n=admin@c-69-180-173-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 23:33.30 | JefferyM | wow, ADD much? |
| 23:33.54 | Bambino_ | oh, Attention... |
| 23:34.01 | Bambino_ | I though it was add..nvm |
| 23:34.06 | Bambino_ | SO |
| 23:34.33 | Bambino_ | http://pastebin.com/m26fed3af |
| 23:34.50 | Thumper_ | something like this: http://bzflag.norang.ca/groups and change NORANG.* to your groups and adjust permissions appropriately |
| 23:34.52 | Bambino_ | and add the -groupdb "path/to/the/group/file/ |
| 23:34.59 | JefferyM | he left |
| 23:35.06 | Thumper_ | oh yeah so he did. duh |
| 23:35.11 | Thumper_ | goes to make more coffee |
| 23:35.23 | Bambino_ | heh |
| 23:35.29 | Bambino_ | ugh |
| 23:35.45 | Bambino_ | all the help comes when he leaves.. |
| 23:36.05 | JefferyM | he never stays long |
| 23:36.55 | Thumper_ | won't bother to spend that many minutes to help him out next time |
| 23:36.58 | Bambino_ | spam, sorry |
| 23:37.02 | Bambino_ | <mrapplecomputer1>wait what?!! |
| 23:37.04 | Bambino_ | <mrapplecomputer1>where r u going? |
| 23:37.06 | Bambino_ | <mrapplecomputer1>ill brb |
| 23:37.07 | Bambino_ | <mrapplecomputer1>10 mins |
| 23:37.10 | *** join/#bzflag Swigg_ (n=Default@24-158-79-244.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com) |
| 23:37.11 | Bambino_ | for private chat |
| 23:37.14 | Bambino_ | from* |
| 23:37.21 | JefferyM | and we care about his conversations with you... why? |
| 23:37.31 | Bambino_ | hm, good point |
| 23:38.50 | *** join/#bzflag mrapplecomputer1 (n=admin@c-69-180-173-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 23:39.17 | JefferyM | if you don't have time to wait for an answer mrapplecomputer1 don't bother joining |
| 23:39.40 | mrapplecomputer1 | i can wait |
| 23:39.48 | JefferyM | obviously not |
| 23:39.53 | JefferyM | do you have a groups file? |
| 23:40.04 | mrapplecomputer1 | i have no idea |
| 23:40.20 | JefferyM | do you understand how users and permisions work? |
| 23:40.27 | mrapplecomputer1 | i should make one that put a refrence in my conf? |
| 23:40.31 | mrapplecomputer1 | yep |
| 23:40.43 | JefferyM | do you know what you want your groups to do? |
| 23:41.03 | mrapplecomputer1 | make people admins, and cops |
| 23:41.14 | JefferyM | do you know what those terms mean, specificly? |
| 23:41.23 | JefferyM | as in what permisions you wish to give each group? |
| 23:41.33 | JefferyM | or did you just ask for groups because everyone else did? |
| 23:41.39 | mrapplecomputer1 | nope! i guess no /set or /shutdownserver or stuff for cop? |
| 23:41.47 | JefferyM | that's completely up to you |
| 23:41.51 | JefferyM | it is your server |
| 23:42.03 | mrapplecomputer1 | ok, what do you reccomend for a cop? |
| 23:42.12 | JefferyM | to use your groups you make a group config file, and give the perms for each group |
| 23:42.20 | JefferyM | it is not our place to tell you how to run your server |
| 23:42.22 | mrapplecomputer1 | oooo |
| 23:42.40 | JefferyM | and it would be stupid of you to run a server with out fully understanding what the permissions do |
| 23:43.13 | mrapplecomputer1 | I know, but if you were going to make a person a cop, what permissions wouldnt you give them (not that ill use them) |
| 23:43.35 | Bambino_ | normally shortban |
| 23:43.40 | Bambino_ | but that's just me |
| 23:43.49 | mrapplecomputer1 | only shortban? |
| 23:43.56 | Constitution | mrapplecomputer1: start from no perms and then add perms you need as you see fit... if you understand them :) |
| 23:44.11 | mrapplecomputer1 | ok... ill try |
| 23:44.22 | Constitution | ban, shortban, and I think showadmin will give the user an @ |
| 23:44.26 | mrapplecomputer1 | is there something i need to add to my conf file though/ |
| 23:44.36 | mrapplecomputer1 | ok thx ;) |
| 23:44.38 | Constitution | er, I think showadmin only works with a plugin actually |
| 23:44.49 | mrapplecomputer1 | awww snap! |
| 23:44.56 | Constitution | yes, -groupdb |
| 23:45.03 | mrapplecomputer1 | hey, your constitution! |
| 23:45.07 | JefferyM | Constitution, @ is given to people with kick or ban |
| 23:45.18 | mrapplecomputer1 | i got caught in a range ban |
| 23:45.24 | Constitution | yeah, I whitelisted you |
| 23:45.29 | Bambino_ | http://pastebin.com/d66eafff2 |
| 23:45.29 | mrapplecomputer1 | o thanks jeff |
| 23:45.33 | Bambino_ | that's my perm file |
| 23:45.37 | Bambino_ | just an example |
| 23:45.54 | JefferyM | there is a sample groups file in the misc dir as well |
| 23:46.19 | mrapplecomputer1 | thanks ;) |
| 23:46.34 | JefferyM | but bascaly give each group whatever permisions you want, then add users to the groups from bzbb |
| 23:46.35 | JefferyM | that's it |
| 23:46.56 | Constitution | JefferyM: kick does not give @ in 2.0 |
| 23:47.11 | Bambino_ | and don't /setgroup people |
| 23:47.13 | mrapplecomputer1 | ok, im on a mac, i could never find the misc ful==ile |
| 23:47.15 | Bambino_ | that is bad |
| 23:47.26 | mrapplecomputer1 | whats that? |
| 23:47.51 | JefferyM | Constitution, then it's ban |
| 23:47.56 | JefferyM | or kick and ban |
| 23:47.58 | Constitution | yes, or shortban |
| 23:48.16 | JefferyM | but it's a combination of them, not a perm itself |
| 23:48.43 | mrapplecomputer1 | so, wheres the misc file on a mac? i could never find it |
| 23:48.54 | JefferyM | it's part of the source tree |
| 23:48.56 | JefferyM | not the binary install |
| 23:49.07 | mrapplecomputer1 | (newbie)? |
| 23:49.25 | Constitution | JefferyM: it seems to be just ban or shortban... kick is not considered |
| 23:49.31 | JefferyM | then perhaps running a server is not for you mrapplecomputer1 |
| 23:49.33 | JefferyM | Constitution, k |
| 23:49.35 | Constitution | not that it matters from a practical standpoint |
| 23:49.41 | Constitution | just for info |
| 23:49.49 | mrapplecomputer1 | lol probably, im just curios |
| 23:49.51 | JefferyM | mrapplecomputer1, it is part of the source code tarball, not the .app you downloaded |
| 23:50.21 | mrapplecomputer1 | o thanks ;) source code makes sense |
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