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| 01:01.30 | Yassen | I found the reason why BZAdmin doesn't copy to root in 2.0.x: There needs to be a Post Build event (copy ..\..\src\bzadmin\*.exe ..\..\*.exe) in the BZAdmin project properties. |
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| 02:03.41 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19530 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/ (6 files in 2 dirs): * moved parseCustomObject() out of readWorldStream() |
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| 08:02.23 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03218.101.92.164 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5624 10/w/Getting_Started: /* Non-Standard Teams */ |
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| 15:48.12 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || Latest Release: 2.0.12 (linux), 2.0.10 (everyone else) || We have been accepted as a mentoring org for GSoC2009 |
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| 17:31.59 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || Latest Release: 2.0.12 (linux), 2.0.10 (everyone else) || We have been accepted as a mentoring org for GSoC2009 |
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| 17:46.07 | steerpike | had to do a class-b ban on a tk'er |
| 17:46.47 | steerpike | on bzexcess |
| 17:46.58 | steerpike | is their ban list linked to anywhere else? |
| 17:51.13 | JefferyM | I don't belive it's shared with anything |
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| 18:45.37 | steerpike | L4m3r: when is the compound going to be up again? :\ |
| 18:46.09 | MindstormsKid | Indeed... |
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| 18:51.14 | KingRobot | So, as part of the application process, you guys want us to make a patch to bzflag... |
| 18:51.22 | blast007 | yup |
| 18:51.37 | KingRobot | What kind of patch are you after? Something that fixes a bug, or some new feature, or anything? |
| 18:51.42 | blast007 | fix a bug, add a feature |
| 18:51.52 | blast007 | something that shows you know how to write code, build, and test |
| 18:52.05 | KingRobot | Fair enough. |
| 18:52.23 | KingRobot | How many slots do you think you will be getting? |
| 18:52.33 | blast007 | not sure |
| 18:53.25 | KingRobot | I'm applying to work on the robots; something I'm quite interested in and have a good background with. |
| 18:53.39 | KingRobot | But I'd rather work on something than nothing |
| 18:53.53 | KingRobot | So if it came down to the number of slots you guys got... |
| 18:54.26 | KingRobot | ... do you think the robots would make the cut? |
| 18:54.41 | blast007 | really depends, I suppose |
| 18:55.10 | KingRobot | Oh what? |
| 18:57.32 | blast007 | on how good the application is and what we decide ;) |
| 18:57.39 | KingRobot | :) |
| 18:58.05 | KingRobot | I also wanted to work on inter-server communication, but Jeff made it sound like that was a really low priority... |
| 18:58.06 | blast007 | I think brlcad said we'd only have like 2 or 3 slots, but I can't remember if that's the exact numbers or just a guess |
| 18:58.24 | KingRobot | (i've actually already written up a proof-of-concept plugin for the inter-server) |
| 18:59.06 | KingRobot | Can you guys review an application before it's submitted to GSoC? |
| 18:59.14 | steerpike | yes |
| 18:59.34 | steerpike | you get a chance to revise your application after you submit |
| 19:00.13 | steerpike | the person who does the selection may ask you some questions |
| 19:00.59 | KingRobot | Sure. |
| 19:01.20 | KingRobot | More or less, it sounds like a job interview, albeit slightly less formal than normal. |
| 19:01.29 | steerpike | yeah |
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| 19:03.52 | KingRobot | brlcad...? He's not related to the BRL-CAD project, is he? |
| 19:04.07 | blast007 | he is :) |
| 19:05.50 | KingRobot | So who will be picking which applications get in? |
| 19:06.26 | KingRobot | All of the mentors together? |
| 19:06.32 | KingRobot | Or just a few of the top devs? |
| 19:06.53 | joevano | all of us.. we have a scoring system we use |
| 19:07.13 | joevano | lets us rank the apps and then we aggregate them |
| 19:07.42 | joevano | then we talk about it and decide |
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| 20:12.46 | brlcad | KingRobot: if you have the time to do two polished applications, I would recommend that just because we're taking so few slots for bz this year |
| 20:14.02 | brlcad | KingRobot: and yeah .. an inter-server communication proposal would have a *really* fantastic from a strong dev to beat out some of the other higher-priority refactoring projects |
| 20:14.47 | brlcad | continuing previous gsoc projects and projects that focus on improving our existing code quality (instead of just adding to it with new code) are the main focus this year |
| 20:15.01 | brlcad | and part of the reason to take fewer slots, so we can focus on those people |
| 20:15.47 | brlcad | as for the patch, best way to impress the devs no matter what your project is to make an impressive patch (or set of patches) ;) |
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| 21:13.16 | KingRobot | Is there an appropriate way of running the bzflag built from trunk using msvc other than copying libcurl into the same directory as bzflag.exe? |
| 21:16.26 | JefferyM | yes |
| 21:16.39 | JefferyM | set your debug path to the copy of the exe we put in the root dir ;) |
| 21:16.45 | JefferyM | cus we also copy the dll there too |
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| 21:19.24 | TinyJeffM | sooo.. very small |
| 21:20.39 | KingRobot | why has JeffM had so many variations of himself lately? ;) |
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| 21:22.03 | temp_work | KingRobot, he's schizophrenic |
| 21:22.13 | TinyJeffM | 1) reconnects |
| 21:22.18 | TinyJeffM | 2) new laptop |
| 21:22.29 | TinyJeffM | also my work login is different from my home login |
| 21:22.35 | TinyJeffM | so "jefferym" is work |
| 21:22.36 | joevano | ah, so it was ready for you last night |
| 21:22.38 | TinyJeffM | JeffM is home |
| 21:22.47 | TinyJeffM | no, i got it today at lunch |
| 21:22.50 | joevano | ~bestbuy++ |
| 21:22.56 | TinyJeffM | it's got 2 gigs of ram now :) |
| 21:23.05 | KingRobot | JeffM: 2] what kind? |
| 21:23.10 | KingRobot | (of laptop) |
| 21:23.14 | joevano | anything less anymore sems to suck wind |
| 21:24.22 | TinyJeffM | a msi Wind |
| 21:24.26 | TinyJeffM | soo tiny |
| 21:24.50 | TinyJeffM | I tried to put 3 gigs in it but the bios only supports 2 |
| 21:28.26 | KingRobot | wind - nice |
| 21:28.35 | KingRobot | i hear those make really good hackintoshes |
| 21:28.41 | KingRobot | how much did you get it for? |
| 21:33.18 | JefferyM | 309$ |
| 21:34.01 | KingRobot | Very nice |
| 21:35.09 | KingRobot | So, I was talking with blast007 earlier... What do you think the chances are of getting into bz's GSoC by finishing up the robots project? |
| 21:35.29 | JefferyM | if the proposal is good, I'd say fairly high |
| 21:35.33 | JefferyM | I'd like to see them finished |
| 21:35.39 | JefferyM | and fixed to work on windows :) |
| 21:36.23 | KingRobot | Okay, good... I know you wanted the world editor or bugfixes, but I'd really like to work on something that interests me |
| 21:36.38 | TinyJeffM | indeed, you should do what you like |
| 21:36.52 | TinyJeffM | robots does need a lot of work, and if we can clean it up some I'd be happy |
| 21:36.59 | TinyJeffM | I'm not really thrilled with how it's setup now |
| 21:37.18 | KingRobot | Just from your perspective, do you think that doing the server-side bots and finishing up the client-side bots as one project would be too aggressive? |
| 21:37.26 | TinyJeffM | yes |
| 21:37.32 | TinyJeffM | brb |
| 21:42.25 | KingRobot | It just seems to me from looking things over that (excluding the actual 'plugin' work), the two projects should share much of the same work... |
| 21:42.52 | KingRobot | Unless you explicitly want the server-side bots to be different than the client-side ones. |
| 21:48.01 | Will07c5 | JeffM: how important are physics options to the world editor? I am not talking about in the backend (since clearly it is important to be able to load and save them), just in the GUI. |
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| 22:41.34 | KingRobot1 | JeffM back? |
| 22:41.52 | KingRobot1 | Hmm, not yet. |
| 22:42.17 | KingRobot1 | More questions about the robots... |
| 22:42.23 | KingRobot1 | ... when you get back. |
| 22:45.09 | JefferyM | go for it |
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| 22:47.26 | KingRobot1 | So, as I gather, looking over the source... |
| 22:48.06 | KingRobot1 | The current setup only works on linux, and is essentially a very hacked up client that runs in the command line? |
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| 22:51.53 | KingRobot1 | ... and then python and/or C++ robots can be run that way. |
| 22:52.24 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 22:52.38 | KingRobot1 | The makefile looks like a train wreck :) |
| 22:52.44 | JefferyM | yep |
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| 22:53.13 | KingRobot1 | You said you wern't very happy with how it was set up now... Do you mean just in terms of the source, or the something else? |
| 22:53.29 | JefferyM | all of it |
| 22:53.43 | JefferyM | the code dupes SOME of the client code, and pulls in files from others |
| 22:54.11 | JefferyM | it dosn't have a clean API to the client code |
| 22:54.25 | JefferyM | sometimes it uses networking, sometimes it uses python, sometimes it uses C from a dynamic lib |
| 22:54.32 | JefferyM | it sends STL over that dynamic lib boundry |
| 22:54.36 | JefferyM | and it's fugly :) |
| 22:54.48 | KingRobot1 | I would envision the bots being part of the actual client; something you could load up as an autopilot |
| 22:54.55 | JefferyM | no |
| 22:54.59 | JefferyM | that would be horrible |
| 22:55.18 | JefferyM | bzrobts is mostly envisioned as a AI/Learning tool |
| 22:55.24 | JefferyM | not a "hey lets have bots for fun" |
| 22:55.31 | JefferyM | that's what server side bots are for |
| 22:55.38 | KingRobot1 | Okay |
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| 22:55.53 | JefferyM | now I have no problem with making some kind of interface for server side bots that can also use BZRobot AI modules |
| 22:55.54 | JefferyM | that's fine |
| 22:56.08 | JefferyM | but for a fun type game, it should not be up to the client to pick the bot, but up to the server |
| 22:57.02 | KingRobot1 | How are serve-side bots implements now then? Is it entirely separate from the bzrobots project? |
| 22:59.59 | JefferyM | yep |
| 23:00.07 | JefferyM | there is an API that creates server side players |
| 23:00.16 | JefferyM | and a plugin installs callbacks for various events |
| 23:00.21 | JefferyM | and calls functions to set the data |
| 23:00.34 | JefferyM | they are treated as real players |
| 23:00.56 | KingRobot1 | Where is the code? I didn't see anything robot-related under bzfs |
| 23:01.14 | Will07c5 | JefferyM: I have a bzwb question, how important are physics options to the world editor? I am not talking about in the backend (since clearly it is important to be able to load and save them), just in the GUI. |
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| 23:01.40 | JefferyM | Will07c5, for them a simple text editor would be fine for a phase 1 |
| 23:01.55 | JefferyM | same for stuff like danamic colors, and drawinfo, etc.. |
| 23:02.07 | Will07c5 | ok what about for the material editing? |
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| 23:03.33 | Will07c5 | also are you sure I shouldn't make dialogs, I will have the whole summer, that should be a sufficient amount of time |
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| 23:06.00 | JefferyM | a good material editor would be nice |
| 23:06.22 | JefferyM | and sure you can make dialogs, we never said you couldn't just that a graphical editing solution is what the primary goal should be |
| 23:06.41 | JefferyM | but yeah, it'll need at least some kind of simple dialog to edit the values at some point |
| 23:06.53 | JefferyM | just don't plan on making them look slick as heck :) |
| 23:07.18 | Will07c5 | I didn't plan to :) |
| 23:07.32 | Will07c5 | my plan is just to make everything functional |
| 23:07.49 | Will07c5 | making them look nice will be for after GSoC |
| 23:08.17 | JefferyM | sure |
| 23:08.20 | JefferyM | that's fine |
| 23:10.10 | Cygal | btw, I did not finish debugging because I don't have much time right now, but if the players does not receive any message when his bots are kicked, it is because the message is sent.. to the bots |
| 23:13.01 | KingRobot1 | JefferyM: So in the context of client-side bots, you don't see that as something a player would benefit from at all |
| 23:13.39 | KingRobot1 | JefferyM: ... just a learning tool, whereas server-side bots, those you see as benefiting gameplay. |
| 23:14.01 | Cygal | (s/players/player/) |
| 23:14.42 | KingRobot1 | JefferyM: So, improvements to the client-side bots would be cleaning up the nasty distribution of source, and maybe a better gui for working with the AI |
| 23:16.08 | KingRobot1 | JefferyM: while improvements to the server-side bots would be, what? |
| 23:16.46 | KingRobot1 | JefferyM: It doesn't seem like there is even much of anything there for the server-side bots. |
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| 23:24.21 | JefferyM | KingRobot1, I see most server owners banning or limiting client side bots |
| 23:24.30 | JefferyM | the 3.0 server already has strict defaults |
| 23:24.44 | JefferyM | the server side bot API needs 2 things |
| 23:24.48 | JefferyM | 1) to be finshed |
| 23:25.15 | JefferyM | 2) a library plugin that is writen as a layer over the API that provides more common "bot" functionality |
| 23:25.23 | JefferyM | stuff like "find nearest object" kinda stuff |
| 23:25.35 | JefferyM | and then 3) a bzrobots compatable layer on top of that |
| 23:26.06 | JefferyM | right now it's just a raw event stream and doesn't really do any "bot" stuff |
| 23:26.11 | JefferyM | it's not even called "bots" |
| 23:26.15 | JefferyM | just "server side players" |
| 23:26.27 | JefferyM | I used them to do an IRC<->BZ chat interface |
| 23:26.46 | KingRobot1 | Okay - that explains why I saw 'serverSideBotSample.cpp' but no bot things in bzfs |
| 23:27.30 | JefferyM | yeah the idea is to have the "bot" layer be external |
| 23:27.36 | JefferyM | then it can be updated independently |
| 23:27.52 | JefferyM | and if some person needs to make a better or different "bot" layer, they can |
| 23:28.33 | KingRobot1 | Yes, that's what I was seeing, and why I asked about doing both bzrobots and server-side bots. But I didn't realize how little had been done on server-side bots. |
| 23:28.48 | JefferyM | I would get bzrobots done first |
| 23:28.54 | JefferyM | it is a good AI development tool |
| 23:29.14 | JefferyM | then once you have a clean API for that, you can use that knowledge in making the bot layer on the server |
| 23:31.44 | KingRobot1 | From the looks of things, bzrobots is largely going to involve a lot of cleaning up in the main source. |
| 23:32.01 | KingRobot1 | Since there are so many unnecessary dependencies. |
| 23:32.17 | JefferyM | yes it would benifit greatly from the "game logic" cleanup project |
| 23:32.23 | JefferyM | they are all related in some way |
| 23:32.29 | KingRobot1 | I'm definitely seeing that. |
| 23:33.23 | KingRobot1 | Each project makes it apparent what needs to be done with the game logic... |
| 23:33.32 | JefferyM | yeah] |
| 23:34.00 | JefferyM | if we were to get 2 students this year, I'd most prefer one on cleanup (ether game or graphics) and the other on bzworkbench |
| 23:34.01 | KingRobot1 | Perhaps you should take your top student projects, and then put each of them to work on the game logic project as it relates to their project. |
| 23:34.09 | JefferyM | if we get 3, I'd put 2 on cleanup and one on workbench |
| 23:34.19 | KingRobot1 | That way you get the benefit of both. |
| 23:34.27 | JefferyM | that would conflict somewhat |
| 23:34.31 | KingRobot1 | how? |
| 23:34.33 | JefferyM | but it is an option |
| 23:34.45 | JefferyM | they'd often be needing the same code :) |
| 23:35.04 | JefferyM | but that's how I'd personaly split it if I could |
| 23:35.10 | KingRobot1 | Isn't that how real development goes though? :) |
| 23:35.17 | KingRobot1 | (re needing the same code) |
| 23:35.17 | JefferyM | not really |
| 23:35.31 | JefferyM | yeah then you pick one person, they make a lib and the other works on something else for a while |
| 23:35.43 | JefferyM | in real development you always have other thigns can can do while you wait |
| 23:35.51 | KingRobot1 | i see |
| 23:35.58 | JefferyM | if it was a HUGE splitup, you could each pick parts to do |
| 23:36.10 | JefferyM | but you'd both know that you'd be working on this needed splitup |
| 23:36.15 | JefferyM | and you'd FINISH that splitup totaly |
| 23:36.21 | JefferyM | not just do the bits you each needed |
| 23:36.39 | JefferyM | with SOC we have the somewhat limiting thing of one project per student, and no group/team projects |
| 23:36.53 | JefferyM | so we have to be a little carefull on how we havce the students interact |
| 23:37.01 | KingRobot1 | Oh, soc won't let you do teams? |
| 23:37.06 | JefferyM | nope |
| 23:37.13 | JefferyM | so it's a thin line |
| 23:37.27 | JefferyM | the way they pay, they can't, cus what if one student did all the work and the other slacked, etc.. |
| 23:37.39 | KingRobot1 | sure |
| 23:37.44 | JefferyM | in a real dev env. it's different |
| 23:38.01 | JefferyM | if I had 2 people doing splits, I'd have one do game code, and one do graphics |
| 23:38.16 | JefferyM | they'd have to interact, but each would be working tward there own goal |
| 23:38.20 | JefferyM | not realy the same project |
| 23:38.27 | JefferyM | just highly related changes, etc.. |
| 23:38.49 | JefferyM | when they were done, we'd only have this nice application shell left |
| 23:38.57 | JefferyM | and tha'd be rather simple to refactor |
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