| 00:06.32 | *** join/#bzflag tj13810 (n=alihg@c-71-206-201-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 00:06.54 | tj13810 | does anyone know how to eliminate (some) lag with a socks5 connection on bzfs? |
| 00:07.10 | a_meteorite | why are you using a proxy to play? |
| 00:07.10 | tj13810 | i have integrated it, but cannot get the connection fast enough |
| 00:07.24 | tj13810 | i am behind a corporate router |
| 00:07.31 | tj13810 | i am not allowed to port forward |
| 00:07.43 | a_meteorite | oh, bzfs.. not bzflag |
| 00:07.51 | tj13810 | mhm |
| 00:07.57 | a_meteorite | well, maybe your company has a reason for that. |
| 00:08.04 | tj13810 | bzflag plays without problems |
| 00:08.12 | tj13810 | but i cannot get reverse connectivity |
| 00:08.26 | a_meteorite | bzfs uses much more bandwidth than bzflag, all I can say is make sure you are not overloaded |
| 00:08.37 | a_meteorite | a proxy is not the ideal solution to bypass a router |
| 00:08.46 | tj13810 | i have T3, but the lag is about 2200ms |
| 00:08.52 | a_meteorite | and, iirc, socks5 can not handle UDP... |
| 00:09.00 | tj13810 | (depending on proxy server) |
| 00:09.11 | a_meteorite | without UDP, it will suffer greatly |
| 00:09.18 | a_meteorite | so you use publix proxy servers? |
| 00:09.23 | tj13810 | yes |
| 00:09.31 | a_meteorite | those are probably overloaded, that is why |
| 00:09.34 | tj13810 | but only those with little work load |
| 00:09.36 | a_meteorite | and they don't have great connectivity |
| 00:09.54 | *** join/#bzflag GrooveMachine (n=4c730072@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 00:10.05 | tj13810 | i use a checking tool for uptime, bandwidth, connections per second, minute, and hour, and reliability |
| 00:10.24 | a_meteorite | they could still have bad connectivity |
| 00:10.32 | tj13810 | but what other ways are their to connect behind a router? |
| 00:10.37 | a_meteorite | proxies are not meant for real time games, so it could be cheap bandwidth |
| 00:10.45 | tj13810 | could be i agree |
| 00:11.07 | tj13810 | in what other ways could i get "infront of the router" so to speak without port forwarding? |
| 00:11.57 | a_meteorite | we do not encourage nor endorse people to bypass work, school, or other routers meant to protect the network without the network admin's permission.. just a little fyi |
| 00:12.07 | a_meteorite | and, afaik, you won't be able to bypass that router |
| 00:12.18 | a_meteorite | unless you can find a forwarded port that is not being used or something |
| 00:12.22 | tj13810 | it's my home router |
| 00:12.49 | tj13810 | my mother works from home, and i cannot touch that router, but i have my own which is perfectly fine |
| 00:12.51 | a_meteorite | well, even with a forwarded port that is not being used it'd have to go to your internal DHCP address |
| 00:13.01 | a_meteorite | you said you were on a work router |
| 00:13.12 | a_meteorite | so at home you have a router connected to a T3? |
| 00:13.26 | tj13810 | no, home router into work router into t3 |
| 00:13.51 | a_meteorite | wait... why is your home router hooked up to the work router? do you live at work or something? O_o |
| 00:13.51 | tj13810 | but i checked with the Admin's and they said that as long as i don't violate the terms they set forth i was fine |
| 00:13.57 | tj13810 | ...no |
| 00:14.06 | tj13810 | my MOTHER works at home |
| 00:14.06 | *** join/#bzflag TyroneFHornigh (n=jbdigriz@209-203-68-2.static.twtelecom.net) |
| 00:14.06 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TyroneFHornigh] by ChanServ |
| 00:14.09 | tj13810 | and i have my own router |
| 00:14.33 | tj13810 | they do client side transcription and it's a T3 directly to their servers through comcast |
| 00:14.39 | Constitution | always wondered who that guy in the access list was ;) |
| 00:14.43 | a_meteorite | and you want host at work, correct? and your work has a T3? |
| 00:14.47 | a_meteorite | *want to host |
| 00:15.13 | tj13810 | i want to host at home, which has my mothers work router, but i need to host from a router behind that which is mine |
| 00:15.23 | tj13810 | i am double "natted" |
| 00:15.26 | a_meteorite | oh boy |
| 00:15.28 | tj13810 | i have 2 nat routers |
| 00:15.36 | tj13810 | yes, that's the problem LOL |
| 00:15.44 | a_meteorite | I can tell you now, NAT inside of NAT will only complicate things even worse |
| 00:15.57 | tj13810 | i tried DMZ, disabling NAT, BOTH, and then PROXIES |
| 00:16.14 | tj13810 | but until i can DMZ with that front router i need software |
| 00:16.21 | tj13810 | (or a miracle) |
| 00:16.28 | a_meteorite | you definitely need the main work router to port forward to your home router, otherwise it won't know where to route |
| 00:16.43 | tj13810 | i wish i could... |
| 00:16.54 | a_meteorite | you won't be able to get farther than that |
| 00:17.17 | tj13810 | i've had it up before, by disconneting the first router and renewing mac addresses, but it's a pain |
| 00:17.20 | a_meteorite | unless UPnP allows for some kind of port forwarding, I dunno |
| 00:17.31 | ShadowSpectre | do you have double DHCP as well? try turning off the DHCP on the slave router |
| 00:17.32 | tj13810 | no upnp, disabled on the first |
| 00:17.33 | a_meteorite | even if the router respects UPnP |
| 00:17.51 | ShadowSpectre | and also try a fixed IP address on your client machine |
| 00:17.59 | a_meteorite | so... T3 -> work router -> home router |
| 00:18.09 | tj13810 | yeah |
| 00:18.13 | a_meteorite | work router needs to forward a port to your home router, then home router needs to forward a port to your machine |
| 00:18.14 | tj13810 | this is the setup now |
| 00:18.24 | a_meteorite | so 5154 to 5154 to 5154 to 5154 :) |
| 00:18.38 | a_meteorite | even if you forward it on your home router only, it won't help if the work router is doing NAT |
| 00:18.48 | a_meteorite | it still needs to get routed all the way back |
| 00:18.56 | tj13810 | T3 -> work router -> Domain/DHCP server -> Home router -> laptops/desktops |
| 00:19.26 | tj13810 | i use that server for my BZServer in a CHRoot jail and only the first router needs port forwarded then |
| 00:19.31 | a_meteorite | if only your home router wasn't NAT'd.. |
| 00:19.42 | tj13810 | ^Read above :-) |
| 00:20.14 | a_meteorite | do you could a publicly routable IP instead of an internal IP? |
| 00:20.33 | tj13810 | like 81.456.XXX.XXX through NO-IP? |
| 00:20.46 | *** join/#bzflag sigonasr2 (n=sigonasr@ip72-200-88-154.tc.ph.cox.net) |
| 00:20.53 | a_meteorite | is that for everyone at work, or just your home router? |
| 00:21.09 | tj13810 | the external ip is for the entire subnet |
| 00:21.17 | tj13810 | it's set on the T3 box |
| 00:21.26 | tj13810 | and just gets leased to the internal routers |
| 00:21.34 | a_meteorite | yeah, I wanted to figure out if it's definitely NAT |
| 00:21.40 | a_meteorite | maybe ask one of your admins to get a public IP? T3 lines usually have a ton to give out |
| 00:21.48 | a_meteorite | and give him your home router's MAC |
| 00:21.52 | tj13810 | public IP? |
| 00:21.57 | tj13810 | like a second address? |
| 00:21.58 | a_meteorite | right, instead of over NAT |
| 00:22.08 | tj13810 | ahhh |
| 00:22.15 | tj13810 | so each computer will have an external IP address |
| 00:22.25 | a_meteorite | not necessarily each, at least your home router |
| 00:22.34 | tj13810 | but how would the second router utilize that? |
| 00:22.50 | tj13810 | and why worry about the router if i can get the server to connect |
| 00:23.30 | tj13810 | like so T3 -> router -> server |
| 00:23.41 | tj13810 | how would i get the public IP onto the server? |
| 00:24.35 | a_meteorite | instead of an internal 10.x.x.x/192.168.*.* |
| 00:24.44 | a_meteorite | er, .x.x |
| 00:25.10 | tj13810 | but it's going to automatically look for that DHCP lease, unless somehow i set a rule to find the IP outside a NAT router |
| 00:25.16 | a_meteorite | oh, is there a way to possibly get the server off your home router directly on the work router? |
| 00:25.26 | tj13810 | it is :-) |
| 00:25.39 | a_meteorite | heh, then where did the home router come into reason? :P |
| 00:25.44 | tj13810 | it supplies DHCP to the router for the home network |
| 00:25.57 | tj13810 | well, i don't know... |
| 00:26.00 | a_meteorite | I mean the bzfs server |
| 00:26.26 | *** join/#bzflag macsforme (n=const@unaffiliated/macsforme) |
| 00:26.26 | tj13810 | yeah, T3 ->work server ->(PHYSICAL SERVER) running BZFS |
| 00:26.35 | a_meteorite | ahh, ok |
| 00:26.53 | a_meteorite | then nothing to worry about the home router |
| 00:27.02 | tj13810 | i'm only allowed 1 physical computer on the work router for home use |
| 00:27.04 | tj13810 | so i cheated |
| 00:27.11 | tj13810 | :-P |
| 00:27.17 | a_meteorite | and your physical server has a public IP address? or a NAT/internal address? |
| 00:27.23 | tj13810 | NAT |
| 00:27.29 | a_meteorite | you'll need it port forwarded |
| 00:27.31 | a_meteorite | or get a public IP |
| 00:27.38 | a_meteorite | that's the only two ways around it |
| 00:28.05 | a_meteorite | with a T3 I'm sure they have public IPs oozing out their ears |
| 00:28.06 | tj13810 | ok, now HOW exactly do i apply the public IP onto my private server that is behind a router |
| 00:28.23 | tj13810 | (I'm only 14 :-P) |
| 00:28.30 | a_meteorite | you get them to assign it to you based on your MAC |
| 00:28.36 | Winny | -publicaddr <ip>:port ? |
| 00:28.36 | tj13810 | ahhh |
| 00:28.45 | a_meteorite | and what Winny said too |
| 00:28.57 | Winny | yay I wasn't wrong for once |
| 00:28.58 | a_meteorite | tj13810: don't worry, I'm only 17 and have been working with computers since I was 6 ;) |
| 00:29.04 | tj13810 | so give them the mac address of my gigabit ethernet card |
| 00:29.11 | blast007 | no, of your router |
| 00:29.12 | a_meteorite | and ask nicely for a public IP |
| 00:29.16 | tj13810 | haha |
| 00:29.19 | blast007 | if you intend to keep using that |
| 00:29.21 | a_meteorite | blast007: the physical server is outside of his home router |
| 00:29.29 | a_meteorite | it's directly up to the work router |
| 00:29.39 | tj13810 | pwease *curls lip* give me a -free- public ip |
| 00:29.56 | blast007 | a_meteorite: I thought he was limited to one MAC address on the work router |
| 00:30.02 | blast007 | 18:27:02 < tj13810> i'm only allowed 1 physical computer on the work router for home use |
| 00:30.06 | blast007 | 18:27:04 < tj13810> so i cheated |
| 00:30.09 | a_meteorite | I think he means policy |
| 00:30.18 | a_meteorite | I really doubt the router is automated to "know" that ;) |
| 00:30.25 | tj13810 | i've been working on computers since i was 6 too, and IP address configuration sucks |
| 00:30.32 | a_meteorite | though at 14 I don't know why you're messing with any corporate/work network... |
| 00:30.34 | tj13810 | i cheated yes |
| 00:30.43 | JeffM | why not just double nat with another router, I've done that, as long as you don't have to host. |
| 00:30.52 | tj13810 | i only had one home lease |
| 00:30.54 | a_meteorite | JeffM: that's the problem, he wants to host :) |
| 00:30.56 | L4m3r | that's exactly what he's trying to do |
| 00:31.03 | Winny | JeffM, when did you want that t shirt design? |
| 00:31.04 | tj13810 | they inspect for extra routers by IP |
| 00:31.05 | JeffM | then set up a static route. |
| 00:31.08 | JeffM | Winny, whenever |
| 00:31.08 | L4m3r | the more I listen to this, the more I just want to say "hosting is not for you" |
| 00:31.14 | a_meteorite | he could get a public IP to his router and then port forward on his router to his server |
| 00:31.24 | JeffM | it's all port forwarding |
| 00:31.35 | a_meteorite | there are many options, but somewhere the main router has to know where to route the stuff |
| 00:31.42 | JeffM | but this is not networking 101 ;) |
| 00:31.45 | a_meteorite | heh |
| 00:31.52 | tj13810 | JeffM i can't, against policy |
| 00:31.55 | JeffM | Winny, no rush whatsoever, it'd just be cool to start thinking |
| 00:32.06 | a_meteorite | JeffM: I would be correct in saying having a publicly routable address would make the router route it correctly? |
| 00:32.07 | Winny | ok |
| 00:32.13 | JeffM | tj13810, you are worried about policy when you are trying to break it? ;) |
| 00:32.21 | a_meteorite | I don't have lots of network experience in cases with having your own IPs |
| 00:32.22 | tj13810 | JeffM i'm not |
| 00:32.28 | Winny | what direction should it be in? More artsy, or more screenshots/cutouts from the game? |
| 00:32.48 | JeffM | Winny, I'd prefer higher contrast, simple, probalby single color on a black shirt |
| 00:33.00 | JeffM | with long selve, short sleve, and hoodie designs |
| 00:33.01 | Winny | single, ahh |
| 00:33.03 | Winny | darn |
| 00:33.05 | JeffM | yeah for now |
| 00:33.13 | JeffM | full color printing never looks great on shirts |
| 00:33.32 | JeffM | to get a good shirt you have to use very thick ink, and it dosnt' screen well |
| 00:33.37 | Winny | what about a few tones of grey? |
| 00:33.48 | JeffM | that just makes it cost more |
| 00:33.50 | a_meteorite | JeffM: you gonna sale the shirts? |
| 00:33.52 | Winny | oh |
| 00:33.52 | JeffM | every color is another ink |
| 00:33.57 | JeffM | a_meteorite, I would like to |
| 00:33.59 | Winny | ah, silkscreening it |
| 00:34.02 | a_meteorite | hmm, I may be interested |
| 00:34.12 | JeffM | Winny, that's how the get made ;) |
| 00:34.15 | tj13810 | JeffM i'm trying to keep from breaking policy (company is UPMC) i'm allowed PHYSICAL computer on THEIR network, so i used a server (so i can host) on their network and installed DHCP DNS and Filesharing, installed a NO NAT router behind it, and installed computer on MY NETWORK. Which doesn't violate their policy |
| 00:34.38 | a_meteorite | tj13810: if I was their network admin, I'd get rid of you as fast as I could |
| 00:34.45 | JeffM | tj13810,why do you need more then one computer on the work network? |
| 00:34.56 | *** join/#bzflag me1 (n=me1@pool-96-237-103-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 00:34.58 | tj13810 | JeffM i don't now |
| 00:35.03 | JeffM | hah |
| 00:35.07 | a_meteorite | I've worked in the school IT department, file sharing was a huge no-no..., if anyone even tried to get a server going, we'd nuke em |
| 00:35.14 | JeffM | put one on the net, host a server, be done with it ;) |
| 00:35.17 | a_meteorite | maybe your work is more lax, I'm just saying |
| 00:35.26 | blast007 | a_meteorite: on my school network, we just use hand-grenades |
| 00:35.42 | a_meteorite | blast007: nuking makes a bigger boom and makes the kindergardeners learn fast |
| 00:35.54 | Winny | heh |
| 00:36.07 | tj13810 | a_meteorite> i am an IT jr.admin at my school, i am helping install vista this summer, as for the work router, UPMC is letting me job shadow because their tech thought it was ingenious |
| 00:36.14 | blast007 | s/the kindergardeners/a 50 mile radius/ |
| 00:36.19 | a_meteorite | lol |
| 00:36.20 | JeffM | Winny, my general idea was somethign using the icon logo on the back, with maybe the URL on the shoulder |
| 00:36.29 | Winny | nothing on the front? |
| 00:36.36 | JeffM | dunno |
| 00:36.40 | Winny | hmm |
| 00:36.42 | a_meteorite | tj13810: good for you, just be sure you run everything by the top guys... trust me, you always want to be on their good side |
| 00:36.49 | JeffM | I don't think the front of shirts are looked at as much as the back. |
| 00:36.51 | Winny | how about a small monochrome version of the whole logo |
| 00:36.57 | JeffM | but that's why I'm open to ideas |
| 00:37.03 | a_meteorite | or whatever you're supposed to do |
| 00:37.04 | JeffM | Winny, mayhaps |
| 00:37.09 | Winny | ok |
| 00:37.45 | tj13810 | they're going to let me take a look in their server rooms and give them my ideas, they think that the best ideas come from the most creative, and the head tech's kids are my best friends |
| 00:37.49 | JeffM | I'm asking for designs not because I am incapable of doing one myself, but to see what others come up with ;) |
| 00:38.25 | L4m3r | with a soft spot for cute CGI girls |
| 00:38.29 | JeffM | totaly |
| 00:38.42 | tj13810 | *hopes for MIT sholarship to fall from sky or appear on door step* |
| 00:38.54 | a_meteorite | tj13810: server rooms are interesting :) |
| 00:39.14 | a_meteorite | ours wasn't really voodoo or anything, so we'd go in there for various tasks or whatever. |
| 00:39.22 | L4m3r | tj13810: be careful what you wish for... UCLA's compsci program is kicking my arse |
| 00:39.24 | tj13810 | oh god yes, they use Gigaband and infiniband |
| 00:39.30 | tj13810 | for almost everything |
| 00:39.33 | L4m3r | I can't imagine how bad MIT must be |
| 00:39.44 | a_meteorite | it's always nice to get the lowdown of what everything does from the top guys, especially in a small team, you have access to them |
| 00:40.10 | tj13810 | their oldest server is 2 years old and it's not a dell *whew* it's sun sparc |
| 00:40.25 | a_meteorite | wow, you must live in a moderately well off district (budget wise) |
| 00:40.37 | tj13810 | not really, middle class |
| 00:40.54 | tj13810 | i just know their kids through him |
| 00:41.13 | tj13810 | we hang out and watch movies and stuff |
| 00:41.34 | tj13810 | (develop programs too) |
| 00:41.34 | a_meteorite | each school site around here is linked via 100Mbit fiber, except the most rural, which is via a T1. our oldest server is probably getting around 10 years old, and to save ~$50 on new servers we go from 2GB down to 1GB RAM... |
| 00:41.53 | a_meteorite | and then the decision makers (they have little to no tech understanding) complain it's slow |
| 00:41.59 | tj13810 | that sucks, they do that |
| 00:42.06 | a_meteorite | the ones that run the whole shebang :) |
| 00:42.13 | *** join/#bzflag Thumper_ (n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper) |
| 00:42.23 | tj13810 | we have 2 Quad core duo's with 8 gigs of ram |
| 00:42.31 | a_meteorite | and, yes, we're an all Dell district. |
| 00:42.41 | a_meteorite | I doubt anything that good exists anywhere here, heh |
| 00:42.43 | tj13810 | with a san for storage and sharing |
| 00:42.52 | tj13810 | Dell *shivers* |
| 00:42.54 | Winny | hmm, tread marks don't look good in 2-bit :P |
| 00:43.17 | tj13810 | do you have AIM MSN a_meteorite? |
| 00:43.17 | a_meteorite | the only good thing about Dell is support, call them up, get a part, have it back soon... and we can send in the bad part after swapping it |
| 00:43.27 | tj13810 | HP does that too |
| 00:43.42 | a_meteorite | yes, bzmeteorite for AIM, bzmeteorite@gmail.com for MSN and Gtalk |
| 00:43.50 | a_meteorite | also got ICQ and god knows what else if you want it :) |
| 00:44.11 | Winny | xxx-chat? |
| 00:44.13 | tj13810 | a couple million $ for IT development :-P |
| 00:44.19 | a_meteorite | Winny: I was banned from that |
| 00:44.25 | Winny | aww ;P |
| 00:44.26 | a_meteorite | apparently too many wizard requests |
| 00:44.47 | a_meteorite | if you read bash classics... :) |
| 00:45.08 | tj13810 | i'm going to beg when the school upgrades this year... please give me an eSATA 3U setup |
| 00:45.36 | a_meteorite | wow, you beg for that when we just beg to get rid of the aging GX100's... |
| 00:45.41 | tj13810 | i'm thinking about a webserver :-) and on T3 the idea looks good |
| 00:45.42 | tj13810 | haha |
| 00:45.56 | tj13810 | they gave me an old sun sparc unit last year 1.2ghz |
| 00:46.09 | a_meteorite | damn |
| 00:46.34 | a_meteorite | we have to surplus all our stuff... stick it on a palette and auction it off |
| 00:46.49 | a_meteorite | got any job openings? hah! |
| 00:46.59 | tj13810 | i test mysql on it |
| 00:46.59 | tj13810 | and sql in general |
| 00:46.59 | tj13810 | develop linux too |
| 00:47.04 | tj13810 | i just put a request ticket in at the end of the year that sais "call me before trashing anything" and i get the pick of the litter |
| 00:47.12 | tj13810 | dunno lol |
| 00:47.42 | tj13810 | we have all desktops though... |
| 00:47.48 | tj13810 | upgrading to IBM this year |
| 00:47.52 | tj13810 | *yay* |
| 00:48.08 | a_meteorite | tj13810: could you add me to your buddy list? we can talk there and move our OT chat off of here :) |
| 00:49.26 | tj13810 | yup |
| 00:49.28 | tj13810 | on AIM now |
| 00:49.53 | a_meteorite | I don't know your AIM, you know mine. ;) |
| 00:50.06 | tj13810 | tj13820 |
| 00:50.07 | tj13810 | lol |
| 00:56.33 | Winny | brlcad, annoucement? ;) |
| 00:56.39 | brlcad | JeffM: for what it's worth, with that separation you started up on, that is part of the purpose of libgame -- once it is decoupled fully from opengl/display/graphics, it goes there |
| 00:57.00 | brlcad | so that in the end game runs the game, and src/bzflag is left with a bunch of ogl drawing code |
| 00:57.05 | brlcad | Winny: never mind |
| 00:57.11 | Winny | what was it going to be? :) |
| 00:57.19 | brlcad | that I'm pregnant |
| 00:57.26 | Winny | Congrats! |
| 00:57.32 | brlcad | but it was a false alarm |
| 00:57.42 | brlcad | i just had gas |
| 00:57.45 | spldart | Umm |
| 00:57.49 | spldart | yeah.... |
| 00:58.01 | brlcad | :) |
| 00:58.20 | Winny | hehe |
| 00:58.33 | spldart | A smile... I full on mega disturbed and your... demented hehehe |
| 00:58.47 | spldart | meh... I'm hungry |
| 00:59.07 | Winny | my hehe's are not demented |
| 00:59.15 | Winny | theyre... challenged |
| 00:59.30 | spldart | They originate from a demented mind.. Correct? |
| 00:59.35 | Winny | no |
| 00:59.39 | Winny | challenged :P |
| 00:59.47 | spldart | Perhaps deranged? |
| 01:00.04 | spldart | Challenged by what untenable goal? |
| 01:01.55 | *** join/#bzflag Flash (n=jwmelto@unaffiliated/flash) |
| 01:04.36 | brlcad | ~cane jorgenpt |
| 01:04.36 | ibot | ACTION takes jorgenpt out back for 40 lashes with a bamboo pole |
| 01:06.09 | Winny | only 40? |
| 01:07.55 | brlcad | black shirts or a dark grey could work .. lightweight thin stretch fiber ideally .. hmmmm |
| 01:08.49 | Winny | eh |
| 01:09.01 | Winny | a wet t-shirt contest? where will the chicks come from? ;) |
| 01:11.49 | *** join/#bzflag KTL (n=KTL@213.219.144.106.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net) |
| 01:15.48 | brlcad | speaking of females.. I wish there were at least one willing/able to mentor this year |
| 01:16.45 | brlcad | the sausage fest doesn't help keep things balanced |
| 01:16.49 | KTL | it's as if i hear speaking about ghosts |
| 01:18.11 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm) |
| 01:18.16 | KTL | how many females do you count in this channel? and how many active in this channel? *curious* |
| 01:19.43 | *** part/#bzflag tj13810 (n=alihg@c-71-206-201-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 01:19.52 | brlcad | at a glance, just one that's not really active atm .. maybe two |
| 01:20.13 | *** join/#bzflag twh (n=0498b18c@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:21.33 | brlcad | there we go.. it's called "cotton-sheer" |
| 01:21.58 | JeffM | brlcad, the mentor blag look ok to you? |
| 01:21.59 | brlcad | that's the kind of t-shirt, awesomeness material |
| 01:22.03 | brlcad | looked great |
| 01:22.19 | JeffM | you have super cow powers on it now |
| 01:23.10 | brlcad | mootastic |
| 01:23.23 | JeffM | the rss feed from CIA could use a little work, it would be nice to have the commiters name in bold |
| 01:23.31 | JeffM | and.. well there. |
| 01:25.53 | brlcad | aww, damn, they don't have their price-list on-line |
| 01:26.08 | JeffM | how much money we got left? |
| 01:26.17 | *** join/#bzflag Erroneous (n=dtremena@67-131-219-2.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 01:26.35 | JeffM | cus I can totaly get storage space here at work, and can do the shipping to resell them :) |
| 01:26.54 | JeffM | we do bulk UPS and USPS dropoffs daily |
| 01:27.13 | JeffM | mmmm color matched monitors...... |
| 01:27.14 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Erroneous] by ChanServ |
| 01:27.19 | brlcad | est 500 |
| 01:27.44 | brlcad | +-200 |
| 01:29.35 | brlcad | should be about 550 if I remember the tax rates from last year |
| 01:31.17 | brlcad | http://www.nextlevelapparel.com/offpricecatalog.php ... style #6300 |
| 01:31.51 | brlcad | have it say bzflag on the left chest horizontal and some image/logo/tank/whatever on the back |
| 01:32.18 | brlcad | s/horizontal/diagonal/ .. in line with the sleeve |
| 01:32.29 | *** join/#bzflag whodaman- (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-) |
| 01:32.32 | JeffM | ahh a raglin |
| 01:32.36 | JeffM | I like ragilins |
| 01:33.17 | JeffM | a ringer could be cool too |
| 01:33.19 | brlcad | it's a thin-cotton stretch shirt .. love the material, have no idea how much they cost |
| 01:33.46 | JeffM | ummm, dude, I'm guessing most of our players won't have pecks to stretch it across |
| 01:33.55 | JeffM | altheltic fit may not be the best ;) |
| 01:34.25 | JeffM | I do not see us printing any smalls ;) |
| 01:34.25 | brlcad | heh, it looks good loose too |
| 01:34.39 | JeffM | how much per shirt? |
| 01:34.42 | brlcad | yeah, maybe L and XXL |
| 01:34.43 | brlcad | no idea |
| 01:34.49 | brlcad | they didn't publish their prices |
| 01:35.26 | brlcad | hehe |
| 01:35.42 | *** join/#bzflag coffee (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-) |
| 01:35.44 | JeffM | the sage and olive raglan with with olive printing coudl look quite good |
| 01:36.37 | KTL | bzflag tshirt mmm with a stylized/cell shaded tank contour on it, white on black ... |
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| 01:37.40 | JeffM | they don't seem to have mens hoddies |
| 01:38.07 | JeffM | yeah Erroneous and I figured, we'd have to do some mediums ( for the youngins ) then larges, a lot of XLs and some XXLs |
| 01:38.33 | JeffM | as I said, I'd like to see long, short, and hoodie |
| 01:38.37 | brlcad | or ala cart .. i wouldn't be surprised if by now there aren't some better alternatives to cafepress |
| 01:38.55 | JeffM | print on demand generaly has a poorer print quality |
| 01:39.01 | JeffM | since its usualy not screened |
| 01:39.12 | KTL | btw what was the good news from yesterdaynight? |
| 01:39.34 | brlcad | and poorer shirt quality (feel like crap) |
| 01:39.35 | JeffM | every body had fun last night, every body wang chunged tonight |
| 01:39.50 | brlcad | KTL: that we're making shirts! |
| 01:39.57 | JeffM | brlcad, indeed, if we can work it, I'd rather print and resell, we can do it via paypall easy enough. |
| 01:39.58 | brlcad | duh.. ;) |
| 01:40.09 | JeffM | brlcad, is this who google uses? |
| 01:40.15 | JeffM | cus LH said she'd hook us up |
| 01:40.34 | brlcad | no, it's who siggraph used last year |
| 01:40.39 | brlcad | er, acm |
| 01:41.08 | brlcad | they were some of the best t-shirts siggraph has ever had |
| 01:42.19 | brlcad | the picture *really* doesn't do it justice at all, but http://www.siggraph.org/s2007/attendees/merchandise/ |
| 01:44.44 | JeffM | well check with LH too |
| 01:45.00 | Winny | LH? LifeHacker? :p |
| 01:45.08 | JeffM | and yes, I'll set up the paypall part if need be |
| 01:47.23 | JeffM | the big thing will be the final cost of the shirts |
| 01:47.52 | JeffM | we should not price them to be too marked up but we should make a small bit fo extra to help funding more shirts/projects |
| 01:48.13 | brlcad | I'd expect/aim for $20-30 (without having any clue what it's going to cost us wholesale yet ;) |
| 01:48.25 | JeffM | that's a bit high I think |
| 01:49.12 | brlcad | depends on our volume and the shirt -- like jb said, we'd likely pay a 5-10 premium for a nice custom/quality shirt at our volume |
| 01:49.27 | JeffM | most web comics ( who would do similar numbers to what I think we'd do ) end up charging 15-18 per shirt |
| 01:49.41 | brlcad | otherwise, yea, we'd not have any trouble getting that down to 10-20 |
| 01:50.54 | JeffM | well we can get quantiies once we know the prices |
| 01:51.09 | JeffM | it'll be hard to get one of our people to spend 30$ on a shirt |
| 01:51.13 | JeffM | even if it is good quality |
| 01:52.18 | JeffM | I have many shirts printed by these guys |
| 01:52.19 | JeffM | http://www.brunettotshirts.com/ |
| 01:52.24 | JeffM | years old |
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| 01:53.26 | brlcad | yeah, I have a few of those.. they's alright |
| 01:53.27 | JeffM | I mean a hanes beffy T in black is 8$ with a minimum of 12 |
| 01:53.35 | brlcad | not my fav, they're run-of-the-mill feel |
| 01:53.42 | JeffM | they have a number of difrent shirts |
| 01:53.57 | JeffM | including a raglin |
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| 01:54.33 | JeffM | hoodies are under 20$ |
| 01:54.38 | brlcad | that's the style, not the feel ;) I can be easily convinced on a lot of good styles |
| 01:54.52 | Winny | bikinis! |
| 01:54.54 | brlcad | it's the poly cotton sheer that is awesome |
| 01:55.02 | JeffM | perhaps |
| 01:55.10 | JeffM | but I'm just saying that site is like baseline |
| 01:55.13 | JeffM | to compare prices too |
| 01:55.30 | brlcad | yeah, cutting the price in half would make it worth it |
| 01:55.31 | KTL | bzflag lingerie Winny :) |
| 01:55.34 | Winny | haha |
| 01:55.37 | JeffM | find out the prices on your pimp shirt and we'll see what it comes out as |
| 01:55.41 | brlcad | I can always print my own dang shirt if I wanna be picky ;) |
| 01:55.45 | JeffM | heh |
| 01:55.52 | JeffM | I'll do the legwork on shiping prices |
| 01:55.57 | KTL | "shall i tickle your tank?" |
| 01:56.12 | KTL | nevermind :D |
| 01:56.33 | brlcad | "checkout these guns" |
| 01:56.45 | JeffM | wow, you want to be slaped don't you? |
| 01:56.46 | JeffM | ;) |
| 01:57.05 | Winny | I'm not sure if that was for a shirt or not, JeffM :P |
| 01:57.19 | JeffM | brlcad, basicly looks like he can print on anything in this cat. http://www.imprintablecatalog.com/ |
| 01:57.22 | JeffM | so check thru |
| 01:57.40 | JeffM | or maybe we can do a smaller run of "premium" shirts |
| 01:58.30 | JeffM | american apperal has a 50/50 sheer t |
| 01:58.36 | JeffM | and he can do those |
| 01:59.40 | brlcad | heh, "Badger" brand .. that would be so apropriate |
| 02:00.05 | brlcad | http://www.imprintablecatalog.com/catalog/search/?category=A&mill=20&style=9633 |
| 02:00.21 | JeffM | but based on these prices I'd say it' be very possible to do a 12-14$ shirt, 4-5$ shiping (in us) |
| 02:00.32 | JeffM | and combine shipping on up to 2-3 shirts |
| 02:01.15 | brlcad | wow, those AA sheer guys look horrible .. :) |
| 02:01.55 | JeffM | we print up 50 or so shirts and go from there |
| 02:02.04 | brlcad | that is the right material though |
| 02:02.31 | JeffM | see then we can shove one of those into the print runs ;) |
| 02:02.46 | JeffM | since you can mix shirts in the print run |
| 02:03.00 | brlcad | which puts us right on 20 without really a profit :) |
| 02:04.55 | brlcad | yeah, I wouldn't print more than 50 for starters |
| 02:05.42 | brlcad | does imprintable have a min order? |
| 02:06.39 | blast007 | 2.99.x* ;) |
| 02:06.51 | pacman87 | yeah, you know what i meant |
| 02:07.01 | blast007 | hehe |
| 02:07.23 | brlcad | heh, http://www.imprintablecatalog.com/catalog/search/?category=A&mill=54&style=10036 |
| 02:07.54 | pacman87 | i actually fixed all your bugs, and it's ready for release, so it's 3.0. |
| 02:08.17 | blast007 | pacman87: haha.. |
| 02:08.18 | pacman87 | i wish... |
| 02:09.11 | pacman87 | no errors so far |
| 02:10.49 | JeffM | brlcad, I'm betting he orders enough from them that we don't care |
| 02:10.53 | JeffM | but send him an e-mail |
| 02:11.24 | JeffM | for hoodies, I'd get those that want them to prepay a deposig ( the cost of the item and printing ) and we add those into the order. |
| 02:11.38 | brlcad | who is "he"? |
| 02:11.54 | JeffM | they guy who runs that site I linked you to |
| 02:11.56 | blast007 | The Great T-Shirt God In The Sky |
| 02:11.59 | JeffM | http://www.brunettotshirts.com/prices.html |
| 02:12.04 | JeffM | e-mail link |
| 02:12.12 | brlcad | ah |
| 02:12.15 | JeffM | unless you want to check who google uses |
| 02:12.16 | JeffM | and see what they offer |
| 02:13.43 | JeffM | it looks likes it's regular silk screening so whereever you want |
| 02:14.55 | JeffM | but ask LH who they use, they have to use the interwebs, and she likes you ;) |
| 02:16.50 | pacman87 | oops, i forgot glew |
| 02:18.00 | JeffM | pacman87, pick one of the non distrobution targets |
| 02:18.03 | JeffM | they don't need glew |
| 02:18.35 | pacman87 | does that mean i start compiling from the beginning again? |
| 02:18.58 | JeffM | depends on the project |
| 02:19.01 | JeffM | some will rebuild |
| 02:19.29 | blast007 | JeffM: is there a way to have the VC projects work more like how linux does, where you can pass stuff to ./configure and it will turn stuff like GLEW, curses, and SDL on/off? |
| 02:19.45 | JeffM | not easaly |
| 02:19.49 | blast007 | or would that involve maybe using that CMake system? (*eww*) |
| 02:20.01 | JeffM | you coudl do it with lots of wacky scripts |
| 02:20.04 | JeffM | but it would not be easy |
| 02:20.11 | JeffM | it's a lot easier to just have multiple targets |
| 02:20.11 | blast007 | yeah, not worth it then |
| 02:20.18 | JeffM | we don't have THAT many options on windows |
| 02:20.25 | blast007 | true |
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| 02:21.09 | blast007 | or is it possible to make the config.h file detect if the right headers/libs exist, and if so, #define USING_CURSES 1 (or whatever it does) |
| 02:21.20 | JeffM | not really |
| 02:21.25 | blast007 | k |
| 02:21.34 | JeffM | you'd do it with scripts and stuff that modified defines |
| 02:21.46 | JeffM | somethign has to do logic to see if the thing is enabled |
| 02:21.51 | JeffM | or available |
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| 02:26.27 | pacman87 | i'll be back in ~2 hrs |
| 02:26.37 | JeffM | why is your compute that slow? |
| 02:28.00 | JeffM | hmm so far on google searching brunetto has the best deal for us, most others will have a setup fee, and can't mix/match shirts |
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| 02:36.32 | blast007 | JeffM: where are collisions for the various object types handled in 2.99.x code? |
| 02:36.57 | JeffM | in the obstacle manager |
| 02:37.03 | blast007 | heh, k |
| 02:37.24 | JeffM | basicly the obstacle manager asks each node if this ray hits it |
| 02:37.34 | JeffM | and each node is usualy a face |
| 02:37.34 | blast007 | cuz one of the big bugs right now is that meshes are drivethrough |
| 02:37.41 | JeffM | ouch |
| 02:37.47 | blast007 | not sure of it's all mesh* objects, or just the "mesh" object |
| 02:37.56 | blast007 | but on louman's map I'm running, you can see it ;) |
| 02:37.59 | JeffM | look for something like "get normal for hit" or something |
| 02:38.05 | blast007 | you also randomly explode on spawn, and it can't place flags |
| 02:38.15 | blast007 | and it can't place tanks, so it drops them in |
| 02:38.19 | JeffM | basicly that method is called for evertyhing to see if it hits, and what the normal at the hit is. |
| 02:40.19 | JeffM | brlcad, based on that site, if we print a 2 color back, and a one color front|sleve on a dark gildan short sleve shirt, we can get 50 printed up for 400$ |
| 02:41.24 | blast007 | meh, guess they changed the tor node list again... |
| 02:41.36 | blast007 | File transfer terminated with error from libcurl 7 : Failed connect to moria.seul.org:9032; Operation now in progress |
| 02:42.49 | blast007 | though that is the one the list on the "Running a relay" wiki page for Tor |
| 02:44.35 | blast007 | JeffM: was the page you were parsing for torBlock an CSV? |
| 02:44.46 | JeffM | CSV? |
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| 02:45.25 | brlcad | not too shabby |
| 02:45.31 | blast007 | Comma-Separated Values |
| 02:45.38 | JeffM | blast007, don't recall |
| 02:45.48 | blast007 | guess I'll see for myself, since I'm recompiling it now |
| 02:46.02 | JeffM | brlcad, if we sell those shirts for 12$ each, we'd end up with +200$ at the end. |
| 02:46.19 | JeffM | probalby less due to shiping |
| 02:46.23 | JeffM | and paypall fees |
| 02:47.08 | JeffM | we eat 30$ per shirt |
| 02:47.18 | JeffM | 30cents sorry |
| 02:47.49 | brlcad | hehe, was gonna say .. what, we get to eat porterhouse steaks every night a shirt is sold? |
| 02:47.50 | blast007 | JeffM: okay, apparently it wasn't a CSV ;D |
| 02:48.08 | JeffM | techincaly if the money went into the org from paypall we'd not have to hit a state franchise tax board ;) |
| 02:48.54 | brlcad | yeah, that paperwork takes a few weeks with paypal to set up (and a couple months longer to withdraw) |
| 02:49.06 | JeffM | I'd just leave it in paypall ;) |
| 02:49.07 | brlcad | (went through the setup with another non-profit with paypal) |
| 02:49.16 | brlcad | i mean through paypal, for a non-profit |
| 02:49.28 | JeffM | for the next run of shirts/stuff just draw from the paypall |
| 02:49.31 | JeffM | the dude takes it |
| 02:50.15 | brlcad | gotta say, paypal kinda sucks for the whole ordeal in terms of what you can/can't do (for an *org*) |
| 02:50.32 | JeffM | what can't you do? |
| 02:50.41 | JeffM | anything we care about? |
| 02:51.07 | brlcad | mainly because they have no concept of an actual org in their interface, the whole system is centered around people |
| 02:51.13 | brlcad | i mean if we had a non-profit |
| 02:51.18 | JeffM | I know |
| 02:51.24 | brlcad | paypal kinda sucks for treating it like an entity |
| 02:51.28 | JeffM | so we'd have to have one paypall acount that we share |
| 02:51.34 | brlcad | though they will do the tax-free stuff for you |
| 02:51.53 | brlcad | you can still set up "groups" iirc, with different roles |
| 02:52.08 | brlcad | for the "corporate" accounts |
| 02:52.17 | brlcad | but still ties to a person, not the entity ;) |
| 02:52.26 | JeffM | ahh for legal status stuff |
| 02:52.40 | brlcad | I talked to them a while about it, was very annoyed at the time, they were working on it but nothing anytime soon ;) |
| 02:53.12 | JeffM | well what would that mean for us? that one person would be the moeny person in the org at any one time? |
| 02:53.40 | brlcad | also the whole "we won't let you have your money for N weeks" (which I read as, "we want at least N weeks to earn interest on your money") |
| 02:54.09 | JeffM | well are we going to have enough to slap into a savings account? ;) |
| 02:54.26 | JeffM | I can see how that could be anoying for larger orgs, but I don't see us dealing with huge bits of money |
| 02:54.33 | JeffM | or even taking it out of paypall |
| 02:54.47 | JeffM | since most things we'd use it on, would take paypal |
| 02:54.48 | brlcad | this was just specific to making withdraws from paypal |
| 02:55.00 | JeffM | do you think we'd do that? |
| 02:55.12 | brlcad | if someone sent you $20 as a payment, you can't really pull that out for N weeks |
| 02:55.28 | JeffM | but could you paypall it to another person right then? |
| 02:55.40 | brlcad | at least as an org setup, personal accounts are fine iirc up to $500 or something |
| 02:55.56 | brlcad | yeah, but you're getting tax'd/fee'd twice if you did that |
| 02:56.20 | brlcad | it can be done |
| 02:56.24 | brlcad | i'm just paypal bitching |
| 02:56.27 | JeffM | heh |
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| 02:56.43 | brlcad | buuut, might be interesting to look at google's instead too ;) |
| 02:56.49 | brlcad | never used them |
| 02:56.51 | JeffM | cus I think we could do the shirts sans an org with just paypall right now |
| 02:57.05 | JeffM | the only thing we'd have to comp out to people would be to whoever does the shiping |
| 02:57.16 | JeffM | as I don't think USPS takes paypal |
| 02:57.47 | macsforme | you can print shipping labels straight from PayPal using the funds in your account, IIRC |
| 02:57.56 | JeffM | macsforme, using USPS? |
| 02:58.06 | blast007 | yeah |
| 02:58.16 | macsforme | UPS and USPS both, I think |
| 02:58.20 | blast007 | http://www.usps.com/onlinepostage/welcome.htm |
| 02:58.32 | blast007 | hmm, well at least for eBay |
| 02:58.48 | JeffM | cus the best thing to minimise fees would be to use the money with vedors that take paypall. that way even tho there are 2 sets of fees/taxes, we only pay one, and that vendor eats the other :) |
| 02:59.10 | brlcad | could also just prepay whomever holds the shirts (not it!) the funds used for shipping |
| 02:59.21 | JeffM | I've already said I'd do it |
| 02:59.33 | brlcad | then the paypal/googlepay whatever could be extracted whenever |
| 02:59.41 | JeffM | yeah buy pulling from paypall direclty to the vendor saves us a set of fees :0 |
| 02:59.46 | JeffM | double bonus |
| 03:00.19 | JeffM | how many people here wear a large or extra large t-shirt? |
| 03:01.29 | brlcad | the vendor might not like a paypal, they pay the fee on their end which they might chargeback |
| 03:01.51 | brlcad | unless they're willing to eat it |
| 03:02.42 | JeffM | well we find that out before we order, if the price is the same from paypall, they eat it |
| 03:02.58 | JeffM | I mean vendors that do there own credit card have to pay fees too |
| 03:03.09 | JeffM | so many just eat or minimise the paypall fees |
| 03:03.46 | JeffM | brlcad, what is your zip code? |
| 03:05.21 | JeffM | if the package is under a pound, in the fixed rate box, it costs4.60 anywhere in the US |
| 03:05.47 | brlcad | 21001 |
| 03:07.06 | JeffM | yeah basicly it'd be udner 5$ to ship in the US |
| 03:07.59 | JeffM | under 5 to canada |
| 03:08.09 | bryjen | blast007: iirc, colliding with meshes stopped working when the network messages to change shoot/drive through were added |
| 03:08.28 | JeffM | just over 10 to europe |
| 03:08.51 | brlcad | JeffM: yeah, but we just make them pay 12 EUR instead and it's covered ;) |
| 03:09.11 | JeffM | thankfully paypall handles that |
| 03:09.26 | brlcad | ~change 12 EUR to USD |
| 03:09.28 | JeffM | and if paypall can compute and print the postage solution automatily, that's even more cool. |
| 03:09.35 | brlcad | bah |
| 03:09.53 | JeffM | then they can pick the shiping they want |
| 03:10.16 | JeffM | and I just print a label, slap it on the free box from the post office and dump it in the mail |
| 03:10.23 | a_meteorite | brlcad: $17.78 |
| 03:13.06 | blast007 | bryjen: ah |
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| 05:40.21 | pacman87 | where's the list of known bugs for 2.99? |
| 05:45.34 | DTRemenak | BUGS |
| 05:51.15 | JeffM | and some more |
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| 06:17.50 | JeffM | mmmmm.. manifold non self intersecting tank :) |
| 06:18.59 | pacman87 | when i turn on 'display treads' my barrel blocks my view |
| 06:19.30 | brlcad | so .. don't turn on display treads |
| 06:19.40 | JeffM | oh god no |
| 06:19.58 | JeffM | tho I thought I disabled all that |
| 06:34.19 | JeffM | too bad it's a 4 color print |
| 06:34.20 | JeffM | http://www.opencombat.net/files/images/brownShirt%20copy.png |
| 06:37.04 | JeffM | but at least I got a cleaned up tank model out of it, so I can fix that thar treads bug brlcad just found ;) |
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| 06:54.11 | DTRemenak | doesn't look bad in mono either |
| 06:55.05 | JeffM | you mean grayscale? |
| 06:55.10 | DTRemenak | no, mono |
| 06:55.52 | JeffM | how did the wireframe come out? |
| 06:56.30 | DTRemenak | http://www.swordofkahless.com/nonsok/blackshirt.png |
| 06:56.50 | JeffM | meh |
| 06:56.59 | JeffM | I'd make the bottom half be white, with black BZ letters |
| 06:57.05 | JeffM | or maybe 2 tone it |
| 06:57.09 | DTRemenak | yeah, I didn't play with it much |
| 06:57.14 | DTRemenak | the text is definitely non-ideal |
| 06:57.23 | DTRemenak | mostly wanted to see what it would look like |
| 06:59.19 | DTRemenak | it's simple and immediately recognizable |
| 07:00.00 | JeffM | yes the icon is good too |
| 07:00.08 | JeffM | I don't have high res icon art tho |
| 07:00.17 | JeffM | and I got the idea from one of saturos's designs |
| 07:00.19 | DTRemenak | satu has svgs of it iirc |
| 07:00.27 | JeffM | yes, I just don't have them here |
| 07:00.46 | DTRemenak | yeah. they really should be checked in I guess...they're the "source" for the pngs |
| 07:00.51 | JeffM | and hey, it made me fix the tank |
| 07:01.06 | DTRemenak | don't get me wrong, I have no objection to playing with other ideas :) |
| 07:01.50 | DTRemenak | variety is a good thing too |
| 07:01.56 | DTRemenak | coo |
| 07:02.10 | JeffM | got anything that will read a 3d model? |
| 07:03.27 | DTRemenak | mmm |
| 07:03.32 | DTRemenak | not really |
| 07:04.03 | JeffM | then I'm going to try something stupid |
| 07:04.15 | DTRemenak | could always export it as vrml :) |
| 07:04.22 | JeffM | http://www.opencombat.net/files/images/tank1.wrl |
| 07:04.24 | JeffM | HAH |
| 07:04.26 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 07:06.29 | JeffM | it's still only 546 triangles, including the modeled barel |
| 07:08.00 | DTRemenak | looks pretty good |
| 07:08.19 | JeffM | UV maping the treads will probably have to be done with with a custom tool :) |
| 07:08.39 | JeffM | or at least lots of math |
| 07:09.11 | JeffM | hmm, probably import it into GibbCAM and measure the faces, that'd do it |
| 07:09.24 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 07:22.54 | JeffM | so it actualy showed up in VRML? |
| 07:23.02 | JeffM | how were the normals |
| 07:23.23 | DTRemenak | lighting was really bad |
| 07:23.27 | DTRemenak | but yeah it showed up |
| 07:23.50 | JeffM | yeah milkshape screws the normals |
| 07:34.42 | JeffM | hmmm it dosn't look bad in 2 colors |
| 07:34.43 | JeffM | http://www.opencombat.net/files/images/green_shirt_2_Color.png |
| 07:34.46 | JeffM | and in green :) |
| 07:36.02 | *** join/#bzflag Red (n=4b1fcb62@bz.bzflag.bz) |
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| 07:36.35 | Red | Hello |
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| 07:36.44 | blast007 | hi Red |
| 07:37.05 | Red | I'm bored =] |
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| 07:37.19 | pacman87 | play 129.116.45.192:5150 |
| 07:37.33 | Red | Ok lol |
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| 08:14.19 | Victory2006 | hi |
| 08:17.09 | whodaman | hi |
| 08:17.13 | whodaman | Can we help you? |
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| 11:46.38 | jorgenpt | brlcad: You know I like it rough. |
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| 12:42.46 | spldart | omg! did you just say that? |
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| 13:20.02 | brlcad | hehe |
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| 16:36.58 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
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| 17:19.38 | JeffM | how much do SSL certificates cost? |
| 17:27.06 | JBdiGriz | It looks like you can spend between $0 and $400 per year. |
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| 17:35.37 | *** join/#bzflag Plouj (n=Plouj@red.cs.yorku.ca) |
| 17:35.56 | Plouj | I just want to say thanks for that nice post-mortem PDF on the Google SoC 2007 |
| 17:35.59 | Plouj | it's a useful read |
| 17:36.08 | Plouj | brlcad: :) |
| 17:37.48 | JeffM | he did do a good job on that |
| 17:37.58 | JeffM | blast007, pingtastic |
| 17:41.54 | blast007 | JeffM: pong |
| 17:43.26 | JeffM | so ever done shoping carts ;) |
| 17:43.41 | JeffM | and know anything about SLL certificates? |
| 17:43.59 | blast007 | shopping carts, barely. SSL certs, nope. |
| 17:44.09 | JeffM | k |
| 17:44.27 | JeffM | I'm looking thru open source cart packages today |
| 17:44.40 | blast007 | I've only done a self-signed SSL cert for my SVN |
| 17:45.03 | JeffM | is the cert for a full domain like bzflag.org? or can we do just store.bzflag.org ? |
| 17:45.18 | blast007 | you can do a wildcard cert, but they cost more |
| 17:45.24 | JeffM | ok |
| 17:45.25 | JeffM | good |
| 17:45.33 | JeffM | wildcard would suck for us :) |
| 17:45.38 | blast007 | yeah ;) |
| 17:45.46 | JeffM | tho if we use paypal, I'm not sure if we'll need a cert |
| 17:46.17 | blast007 | does paypal have a full checkout system? cuz if not, you might want it for their personal info like name and address |
| 17:46.47 | JeffM | paypal has integration with various cart systems |
| 17:46.53 | JeffM | where it uses all that |
| 17:47.28 | JeffM | basicly looks like we can have the cart system do all that, let them pick shiping compute the price, then fire if off as a paypal order to us |
| 17:47.35 | JeffM | then we use paypal to print the shiping |
| 17:48.07 | JeffM | that is if it all works as advertised :) |
| 17:48.17 | JeffM | but I don't know if paypal has a free cart system |
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| 17:49.02 | JeffM | the big thing I'm woried about is also inventory, since we'll have a limited number of shirts in sizes, I'd like to say sold out for the sizes when we sell the number |
| 17:49.24 | blast007 | Google Checkout might be something to look at too |
| 17:49.30 | JeffM | true |
| 17:49.36 | JeffM | wonder if they do shiping |
| 17:49.58 | JeffM | tho the shirt guy dosn't take google money (whatever it's called ) |
| 17:50.20 | blast007 | https://checkout.google.com/seller/integrate_buynow.html |
| 17:50.28 | JeffM | the nice thing about paypal would be for a second run, we could just pay him from paypal, and not eat another set of fees |
| 17:51.13 | blast007 | looks like you might want an SSL cert for the store anyway |
| 17:51.26 | JeffM | there is no way to get a free cert is there? |
| 17:52.19 | blast007 | http://cert.startcom.org/ http://www.cacert.org/ |
| 17:52.36 | blast007 | you'd want to verify if they throw any errors in browsers though |
| 17:53.58 | JeffM | now don't you work for a web company? |
| 17:54.03 | blast007 | no |
| 17:54.13 | blast007 | I wish I did :P |
| 17:56.09 | blast007 | http://www.rapidssl.com/index_ssl.htm <--- $69 for a non-wildcard cert |
| 17:56.23 | blast007 | and they have one at the bottom for a free 30 day trial |
| 17:57.37 | blast007 | verisign has a trial too |
| 17:58.20 | blast007 | wow, they charge a lot more though |
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| 18:10.56 | JeffM | ok, that's good to know |
| 18:12.08 | donny_baker | verisign and thawte are highway robbers when it comes to certs |
| 18:12.13 | JeffM | heh |
| 18:12.19 | JeffM | well we may not even need one |
| 18:12.50 | JeffM | hmmm, osCommerce does not do well on a sucks test |
| 18:12.58 | JeffM | "osCommerce sucks on a scale few applications are capable of sucking on" |
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| 18:15.33 | donny_baker | hehe |
| 18:15.37 | JeffM | hmmm, curl is not compiled into our php, whatever that means |
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| 18:16.48 | JeffM | tho techincaly we don't need a cart system, we could just do a page with buttons and predone prices/shiping |
| 18:17.00 | JeffM | it'd just be nice for people to pick the shiping |
| 18:19.36 | JeffM | hmmmm.. maybe I should test this on .bz, instead of mirkwood |
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| 18:47.03 | brlcad | Plouj: thanks |
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| 19:24.40 | blast007 | JeffM: not sure how BSD does packages, but on my Debian system there was a php5-curl package |
| 19:26.02 | brlcad | bsd has the 'ports' system, similar to apt but better ;) |
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| 19:29.02 | JBdiGriz | There is also a package system providing pre-compiled binaries. |
| 19:32.17 | Tupone | BSD ports? isn't that the system from which portage predates? |
| 19:33.43 | brlcad | yeah, portage (and apt to a lesser extent) both derive from the goodness of ports |
| 19:34.16 | Tupone | but apt is a binary packager |
| 19:34.25 | brlcad | it was too "developer-centric" for many people being Make-based |
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| 19:34.51 | brlcad | ports has a sister 'pkg' system for binaries |
| 19:40.31 | JBdiGriz | [dmp]: Is that from lack of working with it, or have you discovered something that is lacking? |
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| 19:42.01 | [dmp] | JBdiGriz: The first I belive. I ended up with odd compile errors in some dependency, so i went for pkg_add -r instead. But now i got a mixture, and that is probably cause of some of my problems now |
| 19:42.17 | brlcad | the "cleverness" is more it sticking to simplicity |
| 19:42.34 | [dmp] | I'm probably using it wrong somehow |
| 19:42.36 | brlcad | it's just a makefile hierarchy with dependencies spelled out |
| 19:42.49 | [dmp] | that much, i got :) |
| 19:42.55 | brlcad | ah |
| 19:43.04 | brlcad | so just some bad port threw a wrench in |
| 19:43.11 | JBdiGriz | There are problems with the dependencies which are hard to reconcile. If you need two ports which depend on the same library but different versions, it's not easy to deal with. |
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| 19:49.05 | [dmp] | i got 15 servers with at least 1 report from portaudit on most of them. I've checked them - nothing dangerous for us, but i fear i will get in trouble, since i've party installed via pkg and party via ports (via cfengine).. I guess the correct way is to use ports all the way, but is unsure how much problem it may cause if i start (and i can't take the servers offline meanwhile) |
| 19:49.39 | brlcad | installing via pkg shouldn't be a problem iirc |
| 19:50.08 | brlcad | it should still be hooked in as installed so if you do an upgrade/audit, it knows about it |
| 19:50.32 | JBdiGriz | Occasionally, you will have an issue with a dynamically linked library, but most of the time it installs both of them, and uses the correct one for the right package. |
| 19:50.42 | [dmp] | but im sure the problem originates from my lack of knowledge, not freebsd |
| 19:52.23 | JBdiGriz | [dmp]: I never make those kinds of assumptions. I know freebsd too well. ;) |
| 19:52.39 | [dmp] | :) |
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| 19:55.21 | [dmp] | I'm just not too eager to play with the installations currently - it works. I have no testbed to play on, and my tasks (for work) is full of other more "important" things (I dont define how important they are. If I had the option, I wouldnt do it because Im not skilled enough) |
| 19:55.42 | tj13810 | hey a_meteorite got my server to work :-) |
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| 20:22.04 | brlcad | JeffM: those NLA shirts from yesterday are 1.25 to 3.00 each depending on the size and quantity |
| 20:22.22 | brlcad | but they don't do printing, that apparently goes to a reseller (getting more info) |
| 20:27.03 | brlcad | (oh, and no order minimum) |
| 20:27.15 | blast007 | wonder if I'd be allowed to wear a bzflag polo shirt to work :P |
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| 20:38.44 | spldart | BZFlag shirts?!?! |
| 20:39.30 | Erroneous | mhm |
| 20:40.03 | awilcox | Ello all. I am trying to configure my firewall to allow BZFlag. I have opened UDP ports 17200-17220, and TCP port 5154. However when I connect to the BZFS I firstly recieve "This callsign is registered" (I did provide my callsign / password); subsequently, it prints "This server requires UDP" and boots me off. I searched the Wiki for "firewall" and all I got was the README explaining to do what I already did. Was ther |
| 20:40.20 | Erroneous | spldart: they won't be the first, or last, most likely |
| 20:40.48 | Erroneous | awilcox: UDP and TCP are run over the same port |
| 20:40.51 | blast007 | awilcox: bzflag uses port 80 to talk to the list server for auth |
| 20:40.57 | spldart | Wow... I must have missed the previous shirt incident... I'm so totally their on a few bzflag shirts |
| 20:41.08 | spldart | or better yet... a bzflag jacket.. to wear when riding |
| 20:41.22 | awilcox | blast007: port 80 is only allowed through a proxy service. does BZFlag support proxies? |
| 20:41.22 | Erroneous | spldart: Timpson Texas did a set in '03 or so |
| 20:41.28 | blast007 | awilcox: no |
| 20:41.44 | awilcox | Erroneous: The README said to open UDP 17200-17220 =/ Okay, I'll try to open UDP 5154 |
| 20:41.47 | Erroneous | 80 is outbound client only, firewalls should not interfere |
| 20:42.14 | Erroneous | awilcox: the README is probably out of date :) |
| 20:42.14 | blast007 | not unless it's a transparent proxy, and the IP matches your address for playing |
| 20:42.46 | blast007 | outgoing 5154 for TCP/UDP is needed |
| 20:43.07 | blast007 | incoming might be a random port in that range |
| 20:43.18 | spldart | IC... I've only been with bzflag for just a week or two over 3 years now |
| 20:43.21 | blast007 | I haven't done much checking |
| 20:43.34 | blast007 | since my firewall just says "do you want to allow?" and I say "Sure!" |
| 20:44.59 | awilcox | blast007: oh. mine requires you to input port numbers, that's all. |
| 20:46.05 | spldart | LOL... never thought about it before.... My server, apache, bz, etc, is always placed in the 'DMZ' under 'Gaming and other applications' on my router. hehe |
| 20:46.09 | *** join/#bzflag kirun__ (n=kirun@212.48.125.91.rb3.adsl.brightview.com) |
| 20:47.06 | blast007 | awilcox: what firewall is that? |
| 20:52.25 | *** join/#bzflag jftsang (n=jftsang@88-108-218-48.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 20:52.30 | awilcox | okay |
| 20:52.39 | awilcox | Erroneous: thanks much, opening UDP 5154 worked perfectly |
| 20:52.47 | Erroneous | np |
| 20:52.58 | awilcox | _but_ my jitter is 40ms and I was kicked... so I need to figure out what causes jitter *wiki* |
| 20:54.00 | blast007 | maybe your firewall? ;) |
| 20:54.15 | blast007 | but a number of things can |
| 20:54.16 | tj13810 | slow connections |
| 20:54.28 | tj13810 | alot of people on the server |
| 20:54.32 | blast007 | jitter is just variance in latency |
| 20:54.41 | JBdiGriz | slow connections don't cause jitter |
| 20:54.48 | JeffM | brlcad, that seems VERY cheap for a shirt |
| 20:54.49 | blast007 | so P2P apps, downloads, etc can cause jitter |
| 20:54.52 | Erroneous | awilcox: I don't see anything in the readme that still mentions 172xx. can you point me to where you found that? |
| 20:55.00 | awilcox | tj13810: 10625 Kbps or 10.6 Mbps (1297 kB/s) |
| 20:55.33 | tj13810 | That should be plenty enough |
| 20:55.35 | awilcox | Erroneous: http://my.bzflag.org/w/BZFlag_README, second-to-last paragraph |
| 20:55.46 | awilcox | ..."desktop firewalls set them up to let UDP port 17200 to 17220 through" |
| 20:56.08 | tj13810 | are your settings for the display up all the way for high resoltion or down lower awilcox? |
| 20:56.13 | awilcox | and it is 2.0.8, so it's not horribly out-of-date |
| 20:56.29 | awilcox | tj13810: GeForce 8600 GTS (SSE2) -- it's at 1280x1024x60Hz |
| 20:56.30 | Erroneous | ahh, that section does not say that on trunk |
| 20:56.46 | Erroneous | "Make sure that your router and any configured firewall is forwarding UDP traffic over the port you are connecting to on the server." |
| 20:57.08 | tj13810 | awilcox: the settings in your program... BZFlag. What are they set on. Can your card handle what you have them on. If not, that could cause it |
| 20:57.22 | blast007 | tj13810: he can probably get 800FPS in the game |
| 20:57.30 | CIA-26 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r16652 10/trunk/bzflag/README: not 2.2.0 and never gonna be |
| 20:57.31 | awilcox | tj13810: it's at "Experimental"...but it should be fine... |
| 20:57.56 | tj13810 | blast007 most likely, but 16/16 rendering could cause problems etc. |
| 20:58.22 | awilcox | and total CPU usage without bz is 2% according to Task Manager |
| 20:58.27 | tj13810 | awilcox: try leaving it on Best quality, not experimental, it might reduce lag a little |
| 20:58.30 | blast007 | tj13810: I run my 7900GTO at max quality at 1920x1200, with 16/16 AF |
| 20:58.37 | JBdiGriz | jitter is a network issue, it's unlikely to be anything to do with the display. As blast points out, it's variance in the network latency. |
| 20:58.53 | awilcox | JBdiGriz: hmm. could leaving Mibbit up be causing it? :p |
| 20:59.18 | JBdiGriz | What else is on your network, and what types of actual connection speeds do you get to major servers? |
| 20:59.27 | awilcox | also although it runs at 60fps (the 'intelligent' display driver caps all games at 60fps >_>), sometimes it hits 58fps, is that normal? |
| 20:59.43 | Erroneous | yeah, that's normal behavior for vsync |
| 20:59.50 | awilcox | okay |
| 20:59.51 | tj13810 | if could be the server your connecting too, use /lagstats to see what other people are lagging by |
| 21:00.03 | tj13810 | if someone is lagging too much, you might lag more than normal |
| 21:00.06 | awilcox | tj13810: bzf.bzflag.org...I don't assume there would be too much lag. |
| 21:00.11 | awilcox | and besides that, this is _jitter_ |
| 21:00.39 | awilcox | pinging bzf.bzflag.org gets me return times of 132, 133, 136, 132 ms |
| 21:01.04 | JBdiGriz | That sounds fairly stable, not much jitter. |
| 21:01.08 | Erroneous | that's +/-2, not +/-40 :) |
| 21:01.11 | awilcox | JBdiGriz: I frequently attain 800-900kB/sec doing file downloads |
| 21:01.42 | awilcox | JBdiGriz: eh, it's cable, but yeah I get fairly stable ping times |
| 21:02.00 | tj13810 | try clearing the download cache and trying to connect again, do you often use disk cleanup/defragmenter to clean unnecesary files? |
| 21:02.08 | awilcox | will I be kickbanned if I do ping -n 25 bzf.bzflag.org ? |
| 21:02.47 | awilcox | tj13810: this is brand new Windows install. |
| 21:03.26 | tj13810 | awilcox: try cleaning out the cache in BZFlag, and download CCleaner from www.ccleaner.com, it'll clear your cache and temporary internet files |
| 21:03.34 | awilcox | the Event Viewer reports that the first boot was 26-Feb-2008 01:52:33 UTC |
| 21:03.47 | tj13810 | maybe it just needs cleaned however new |
| 21:03.50 | Erroneous | awilcox: why would you be? assuming your ping is compliant, that's just normal usage |
| 21:04.02 | awilcox | Erroneous: I dunno, pingflood? |
| 21:04.22 | Erroneous | only if you have your ping modded to not wait between pings |
| 21:04.35 | pacman87 | isn't pingflood ping -f? |
| 21:04.47 | Erroneous | yes |
| 21:05.07 | awilcox | Erroneous: no, it's standard Windows ping. and my maximum 'deviation'(not sure if that's the word) is 3ms |
| 21:05.42 | awilcox | tj13810: I will clean cache from BZFlag and try again. |
| 21:05.44 | Erroneous | pacman87: windows' ping does not have a flood mode |
| 21:11.06 | uso | awilcox: you don't have UDP enabled both ways |
| 21:11.18 | uso | maybe that's a reason |
| 21:12.16 | blast007 | awilcox: can you turn the firewall off for a minute, then run bzflag and see if there is no jitter? |
| 21:12.35 | tj13810 | maybe it worked and he's having fun :-P |
| 21:12.42 | blast007 | the cache in bzflag has *nothing* to do with jitter |
| 21:14.19 | jftsang | hello? when I connect to a local server, I get Error connecting to server (localhost:5154) |
| 21:14.34 | blast007 | is the server running? |
| 21:14.40 | blast007 | and on port 5154? |
| 21:14.43 | jftsang | yes |
| 21:14.46 | blast007 | and how are you starting the map? |
| 21:14.47 | jftsang | (so says cmd.exe) |
| 21:15.01 | blast007 | okay, so from the command prompt |
| 21:15.07 | blast007 | check the task manager for bzfs.exe |
| 21:15.15 | jftsang | it's there |
| 21:16.38 | jftsang | (it's a private server) |
| 21:17.06 | blast007 | run 'netstat -a -n -p TCP' and look for something listening on 5154 |
| 21:17.10 | jftsang | http://pastebin.com/m5a64910d |
| 21:17.48 | blast007 | k |
| 21:17.55 | jftsang | nope, they are listening on 0.0.0.0:0 |
| 21:18.22 | blast007 | look at local address... |
| 21:18.25 | blast007 | not remote address |
| 21:18.34 | jftsang | still nothing is there |
| 21:18.51 | blast007 | then it's not running properly |
| 21:19.02 | blast007 | verify that your firewall is *allowing* it to bind to that port |
| 21:19.17 | jftsang | ...I've turned off my firewall though |
| 21:19.19 | *** part/#bzflag Plouj (n=Plouj@red.cs.yorku.ca) |
| 21:19.27 | blast007 | ok |
| 21:19.46 | blast007 | are you're sure that 'bzfs.exe' is showing in task manager? |
| 21:20.08 | blast007 | if so, kill it, then just start 'bzfs' at the command prompt with no config or world file, and try connecting to that |
| 21:20.13 | blast007 | narrow it down to where the issue is |
| 21:20.18 | jftsang | now I find 5154 |
| 21:20.26 | blast007 | basic computer troubleshooting here |
| 21:20.37 | jftsang | but I still cannot connect |
| 21:21.08 | blast007 | try my last suggestion |
| 21:22.38 | jftsang | hm? |
| 21:22.43 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 21:22.43 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:23.17 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 21:23.18 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:24.12 | jftsang | still no |
| 21:24.21 | jftsang | not even with no config/world |
| 21:25.03 | awilcox | Um. |
| 21:25.08 | awilcox | I got to have fun for a little bit. |
| 21:25.28 | awilcox | Then it got jittery. I could even _see_ the jitter, once. |
| 21:25.35 | awilcox | 40ms, 29ms, 29ms, 27ms, *kick* |
| 21:26.05 | awilcox | the weird thing is that around the time of the last 29ms, lag went up (something like 400ms, then 320ms right before kick) |
| 21:26.59 | awilcox | blast007: ...I will try disabling the firewall, but the problem is that if that cures it, what am I to do? |
| 21:32.05 | awilcox | firewall disabled, still nothin |
| 21:32.10 | awilcox | *disables something else...* |
| 21:37.24 | uso | and what was the last thing you disabled? udp+ connection now and 2ms jitter ;) |
| 21:39.44 | awilcox | yeah I see that. |
| 21:39.55 | awilcox | the uh...firewall... |
| 21:40.09 | uso | evil firewall :) |
| 21:40.22 | awilcox | well how do I fix? :( |
| 21:40.58 | uso | at least I would try to allow the UDP connection |
| 21:41.31 | awilcox | I am allowing UDP... |
| 21:41.35 | awilcox | let me see firewall logs |
| 21:41.53 | uso | but I have no idea how the firewall under windows work and what it exactly does |
| 21:42.36 | awilcox | My firewall is called "Internet Security and Acceleration", if that matters. |
| 21:42.44 | awilcox | and hmm, I need bzf IP :) |
| 21:43.00 | awilcox | it is 84.16.249.226 from nslookup |
| 21:43.23 | awilcox | hmm...that IP isn't in the firewall's log |
| 21:43.56 | brlcad | JeffM: I can send you the pricelist .. ;) |
| 21:44.15 | brlcad | I think the design printing is what actually makes it more expensive |
| 21:44.22 | JeffM | probably |
| 21:44.39 | JeffM | I think more of our users would like a more standard thicker shirt |
| 21:44.51 | JeffM | but we can print one for you on your spiffy shirt ;) |
| 21:45.25 | awilcox | hmm...would this matter at all? |
| 21:45.26 | awilcox | 2008-02-2821:06:5384.16.252.18176.26.0.123ICMP80-BLOCKED76.26.0.123 |
| 21:46.23 | awilcox | that's the only thing in the 84.16.y.z SUBNET that is in my firewall's log |
| 21:47.17 | uso | awilcox: that's probably from my ping, I tried to ping you from the server to check how good your connection is |
| 21:47.30 | awilcox | ah |
| 21:47.45 | uso | but of course I got no answer ;) |
| 21:50.19 | awilcox | uso: oh so you are a server op (I didn't see you)...what does UDP+ mean? did I not have that before? |
| 21:51.43 | *** join/#bzflag O-Neil (n=Miranda@dslb-088-070-064-185.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 21:51.58 | uso | awilcox: no. you hadn't, you had only a TCP connection before, udp+ means UDP is allowed in both directions, from you to the server and vice versa |
| 21:52.13 | awilcox | ah |
| 21:52.52 | awilcox | I think I know what I need to do |
| 21:52.55 | awilcox | *configures* |
| 21:53.31 | *** join/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-073-125.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 21:59.41 | *** join/#bzflag awilcox (i=4c1a007b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cf9cc1ebac163341) |
| 21:59.46 | awilcox | zomg *idiot* |
| 22:00.02 | awilcox | I freaked because everyone went "not responding"...then I lost IRC... |
| 22:00.15 | awilcox | I accidentally hit the "standby" button on the modem >_> |
| 22:03.20 | awilcox | eh. |
| 22:03.25 | awilcox | I got the jitter back D= |
| 22:03.43 | awilcox | well I guess I won't be playing bz anymore =/ |
| 22:04.23 | whodaman | :) |
| 22:19.47 | *** join/#bzflag MattP (n=aha@unaffiliated/aha) |
| 22:31.22 | *** join/#bzflag Erroneous (n=dtremena@67-131-219-2.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 22:32.27 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Erroneous] by ChanServ |
| 22:32.48 | *** join/#bzflag me1 (n=khazhy@pool-96-237-103-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 22:36.35 | *** join/#bzflag blast007_nokia (n=blast007@pdpc/supporter/active/blast007) |
| 22:36.36 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v blast007_nokia] by ChanServ |
| 22:43.18 | JeffM | Erroneous, there is a vnc file in your drop box I think you fill find amusing |
| 22:44.43 | Erroneous | heh |
| 22:45.28 | JeffM | it makes me happy that most of it solidified on import :) |
| 22:45.41 | Erroneous | couple chunks didn't though |
| 22:45.53 | JeffM | yeah they aren't capped |
| 22:46.02 | Erroneous | ah |
| 22:46.05 | Erroneous | hadn't looked |
| 22:46.15 | JeffM | they are parts that don't detach during explosion |
| 22:58.05 | *** join/#bzflag knoxcorner (n=477b8744@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 22:58.13 | knoxcorner | blast |
| 22:59.46 | blast007_nokia | yes? |
| 23:00.20 | blast007_nokia | no problem, anytime |
| 23:00.39 | *** join/#bzflag knoxcorner (n=477b8744@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:00.51 | blast007_nokia | hi knoxcorner |
| 23:01.46 | *** join/#bzflag knoxcorner (n=477b8744@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:01.52 | knoxcorner | why wont you let me talk? |
| 23:01.56 | knoxcorner | there.... |
| 23:02.04 | blast007_nokia | ... |
| 23:02.07 | knoxcorner | what was that web you gave me? |
| 23:02.23 | knoxcorner | That you told me to put my map on |
| 23:02.33 | blast007_nokia | huh? |
| 23:05.31 | JeffM | the forums? |
| 23:08.00 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-073-125.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 23:08.17 | Constitution | do all ideas for new flags (including developer-initiated ones) need to be Rikered before implementation begins? |
| 23:08.33 | Constitution | as in a blanket rule? |
| 23:08.38 | JeffM | you want the offical answer, or the real answer? ;) |
| 23:08.43 | JeffM | what one do you want to add? |
| 23:09.07 | Constitution | had some new ideas, but noted that the ideas page hasn't been checked recently |
| 23:09.24 | Constitution | heh |
| 23:09.36 | PsudoRiker | so what one did you want to do? |
| 23:09.52 | L4m3r | Pseudo, Jeff. :P |
| 23:09.56 | blast007_nokia | hehe |
| 23:10.03 | PsudoRiker | dude, that's how you know it's me ;) |
| 23:10.11 | Constitution | first, I was thinking of either modifying Seer or adding a new flag to be some kind of x-ray vision flag, so you can see through buildings and see which direction tanks are pointing |
| 23:10.16 | awilcox | haha, |
| 23:10.25 | PsudoRiker | I don't think that's a good idea |
| 23:10.38 | awilcox | PsudoRiker: some guy the other day was talking about a rico SW flag, though I don't see how that could work in practice |
| 23:10.45 | PsudoRiker | huh? |
| 23:10.45 | Constitution | the inspiration came from the Force Sense power in Jedi Academy :) |
| 23:10.49 | L4m3r | any thoughts on combining SE and ID? |
| 23:10.57 | PsudoRiker | Constitution, that right there, means it's a stupid idea ;) |
| 23:11.04 | Constitution | it's not the same idea |
| 23:11.04 | L4m3r | perhaps with a server or BZDB option to disable the latter feature |
| 23:11.05 | PsudoRiker | L4m3r, that is not a bad idea |
| 23:11.16 | PsudoRiker | Constitution, but still it CAME from a game based on a movie |
| 23:11.17 | Constitution | no idea why they called it x-ray vision... it has nothing to do with that |
| 23:11.29 | L4m3r | I've also thought of maybe adding the obs labels to SE |
| 23:11.30 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 23:11.33 | L4m3r | but that could get annoying |
| 23:11.37 | awilcox | I've always thought a combonation ST + CL flag would be awesome. |
| 23:11.44 | L4m3r | you and every other noob |
| 23:11.44 | JeffM2501 | awilcox, for a munchkin |
| 23:11.45 | Erroneous | L4m3r: try with hud markers, rather than labels |
| 23:11.57 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r, we have auto labels now |
| 23:12.00 | Constitution | okay then, guess that's not a popular idea :) |
| 23:12.06 | L4m3r | yeah, maybe more discrete than the ones from observer mode :P |
| 23:12.07 | Erroneous | 3.0 has these nifty markers, could be cool to do for SE |
| 23:12.12 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, I'd work on bugs first |
| 23:12.16 | awilcox | Const: neither of our ideas are popular :p |
| 23:12.30 | L4m3r | awilcox: your idea is popular with munchkins |
| 23:12.40 | L4m3r | ...whatever happend to the "klingon cloak" flag? |
| 23:12.52 | awilcox | Oooh. |
| 23:12.57 | JeffM2501 | based on movie |
| 23:12.57 | awilcox | Like the bird of prey? |
| 23:13.01 | JeffM2501 | == lame |
| 23:13.22 | L4m3r | but the idea of ST+CL with no shooting |
| 23:13.23 | JeffM2501 | still, same concept |
| 23:13.27 | Constitution | JeffM2501: still, it would be nice to have a little more than LG to show for new flags in 3.0 |
| 23:13.29 | JeffM2501 | what is the point then |
| 23:13.35 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, why? |
| 23:13.35 | Constitution | but yes, first things first |
| 23:13.41 | JeffM2501 | there will be a limit to the number of flags we add |
| 23:13.44 | JeffM2501 | or it'll get too complex |
| 23:13.47 | L4m3r | CTF, knocking off campers |
| 23:13.51 | awilcox | Const: ftgl isn't good enough? |
| 23:13.53 | JeffM2501 | so we don't have to have more falgs |
| 23:13.57 | Erroneous | but, improving SE would be cool |
| 23:14.06 | Constitution | awilcox: "to show for NEW FLAGS in 3.0" |
| 23:14.09 | Erroneous | 'cause it's kinda ridiculously weak right now |
| 23:14.09 | JeffM2501 | hud markers for SE would be cool |
| 23:14.13 | L4m3r | well, combining SE and ID would make things simpler |
| 23:14.19 | awilcox | oh. |
| 23:14.24 | L4m3r | I also would not lament being rid of PZ |
| 23:14.31 | JeffM2501 | yeah I don't see any problem making SE and ID be the same |
| 23:14.35 | JeffM2501 | nor would I |
| 23:14.37 | Erroneous | SE and ID are very different though, when actually playing with them |
| 23:14.47 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=short_ci@c-98-197-19-35.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 23:14.49 | Erroneous | I don't think we should be encouraging people to "hang on to" ID |
| 23:14.55 | awilcox | I've never found a _use_ for PZ |
| 23:15.08 | JeffM2501 | there is a use, very specific ones |
| 23:15.14 | JeffM2501 | that usualy arn't very fun |
| 23:15.21 | Erroneous | PZ is not terrifically useful, but it's cool :P |
| 23:15.31 | awilcox | Erroneous: but...but... |
| 23:15.32 | L4m3r | Erroneous: neither flag is very useful by itself, combining them could make it worth holding |
| 23:15.41 | Erroneous | L4m3r: ID should not be held |
| 23:15.42 | awilcox | JeffM said flags based on movies == lame. PZ == superman == movie == lame? |
| 23:15.45 | L4m3r | in general combat SE is pretty worthless |
| 23:15.50 | JeffM2501 | that is true |
| 23:15.53 | L4m3r | Erroneous: why not? |
| 23:15.55 | JeffM2501 | you get ID to get another flag |
| 23:16.00 | Erroneous | exactly |
| 23:16.03 | JeffM2501 | it's JOB is to find another |
| 23:16.05 | knoxcorner | What if you combined Geno with GM? |
| 23:16.10 | JeffM2501 | knoxcorner, why? |
| 23:16.29 | knoxcorner | Itll be fun! =) |
| 23:16.30 | Erroneous | ID's worthlessness prevent people from opportunistic flag-swapping |
| 23:16.31 | awilcox | knoxcorner: that would be, imo, equivalent to cheating |
| 23:16.35 | JeffM2501 | knoxcorner, not really |
| 23:16.44 | Erroneous | you grab it for a minute to find a decent flag, but that's it |
| 23:17.16 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r, you can do that with 3.0 |
| 23:17.45 | JeffM2501 | every flag is geno |
| 23:17.45 | spldart | JeffM really said superflags based on movies are lame? |
| 23:17.45 | L4m3r | I meant, just pepper the map with regular old geno |
| 23:17.45 | JeffM2501 | with a random shot type |
| 23:17.45 | awilcox | L4m3r: that wouldn't be any fun unless you consistantly have >1 person on each team |
| 23:17.45 | L4m3r | you can fake the effect of geno anyway |
| 23:17.45 | awilcox | spldart: Yeppers. |
| 23:17.45 | L4m3r | awilcox: that's the idea |
| 23:17.47 | spldart | But but... that's lame |
| 23:17.55 | JeffM2501 | spldart, and noone should ever point out that my new shots look just like star wars blasterbolts ;) |
| 23:18.00 | Erroneous | heh |
| 23:18.03 | spldart | LOL |
| 23:18.12 | awilcox | 18:11 <JeffM2501> based on movie == lame |
| 23:18.13 | JeffM2501 | but that's not a flag ;) |
| 23:18.17 | awilcox | True. |
| 23:18.18 | JeffM2501 | flags based on movies |
| 23:18.32 | JeffM2501 | effects based on movies == awesome sauce |
| 23:18.39 | Erroneous | ring spawn ftw |
| 23:18.43 | L4m3r | anyway, ID by itself isn't that useful unless there are a ton of bad flags everywhere |
| 23:18.44 | JeffM2501 | it's not right |
| 23:18.50 | L4m3r | because you can just shop |
| 23:18.53 | awilcox | good point...like 'Death Star' for the tank explosion :p |
| 23:18.56 | Erroneous | nope, but it's got the idea :) |
| 23:18.58 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r, thats server setup |
| 23:19.04 | JeffM2501 | lots of flags dont' make sense in some setups |
| 23:19.22 | spldart | Yes |
| 23:19.24 | JeffM2501 | it's a bad effect |
| 23:19.30 | spldart | Star Trek ftw |
| 23:19.31 | JeffM2501 | and needs fixing |
| 23:19.39 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright (n=AAA_awri@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 23:19.41 | Constitution | there's nothing inherently wrong with the intention to add flags (or flag behaviors) to new versions IMHO... map makers and server owners like these kinds of enhancements so that further possibilities open up. They will continuously try to implement new things, even if our existing code doesn't do it elegantly. |
| 23:19.48 | Constitution | take all the animation stuff that's being done |
| 23:19.51 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, yes but there is not a gansta rap song about star treck |
| 23:20.09 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: wanna bet? :P |
| 23:20.12 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, sure, but just adding flags to add flags is not good. add flags to add funness. |
| 23:20.18 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, that i"ve seen |
| 23:20.24 | L4m3r | I don't see a problem with adding a few flags. Likewise, I think a couple could be left out for 3.0 |
| 23:20.34 | L4m3r | I don't see the need to add more than a few, though. |
| 23:20.45 | JeffM2501 | well we shoudl also playtest the crap out of new flags |
| 23:20.53 | JeffM2501 | there is a big ballance issue we often forget |
| 23:20.57 | spldart | Perhaps the more flags the better but most are not included in a random map and HAFTA be optioned in by the .conf file |
| 23:21.10 | L4m3r | I think most of the huge balance flags are already made |
| 23:21.23 | JeffM2501 | spldart, the problem is most server ops are munchtards and just add em all ;) |
| 23:21.24 | awilcox | ...augh, been talking about bz...and not playing...sooooo...difficult... |
| 23:21.28 | L4m3r | anything beyond what we have is more than anyone will implement... most of the new flags on the list are relatively tame |
| 23:21.47 | JeffM2501 | "LOL MRE LAZER!!!!LOL" |
| 23:21.57 | L4m3r | also, it's not just munchkin server ops. it's the players. |
| 23:22.01 | blast007 | if knoxcorner comes back, tell him the URL he's looking for is http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/ :/ |
| 23:22.09 | L4m3r | if you leave wings off the server, your sever is lame, and no one wants to play :( |
| 23:22.13 | JeffM2501 | blast007 heh |
| 23:22.19 | spldart | Welp.. most munchtards aren't as intelligent as the bulk in here... Make those flags really hard then :) ... like compile custom patched in code or something.. I dunno :( |
| 23:22.28 | JeffM2501 | blast007 did you have a repositor for redistrobutable maps somewhere? |
| 23:22.31 | spldart | I'm just bein a whiner |
| 23:22.55 | blast007 | JeffM2501: not that I recall. why? |
| 23:23.11 | L4m3r | back when I ran that compound map, all the noobs kept nagging to add more wing jumps, even though it'd provide no tactical advantage other that wings-rape |
| 23:23.11 | awilcox | L4m3r: heh...I will actually leave a server if I see a lot of GM flags...you can't win, it's pure luck-of-the-draw who-gets-GM-first |
| 23:23.23 | JeffM2501 | blast007 looking for a pile of maps to zip up |
| 23:23.34 | blast007 | there used to be one on the stats site |
| 23:23.39 | L4m3r | JeffM2501: go to ##planetmofo |
| 23:23.40 | JeffM2501 | I'll look |
| 23:23.53 | Erroneous | RPG put one together too iirc |
| 23:23.58 | L4m3r | someone should have sid6.7's huge archive handy there |
| 23:23.59 | spldart | Heh.. I've always preplayed my maps and decided on a number of wing jumps that dictated some thought |
| 23:24.30 | blast007 | JeffM2501: http://web.archive.org/web/20041009143255/http://stats.bzflag.org/maps/ |
| 23:24.37 | JeffM2501 | basicly I want to make semi-real, "product" to test the store, bzflag on a CD, and set it all up and get smeone to buy it to test the process :) |
| 23:25.00 | JeffM2501 | figured it be good to put all the redistrobutiable maps on it too |
| 23:25.09 | Erroneous | careful with maps that aren't ours though |
| 23:25.17 | JeffM2501 | thats why I said redistributable |
| 23:25.23 | awilcox | spldart: you have a computer acting as your router, you should be able to help. I can't get UDP working on my new compy =/ |
| 23:25.30 | L4m3r | there are a bunch on SF. think they're fair game? |
| 23:25.32 | Erroneous | nobody's ever gone through any of the big archives and checked licenses, that I know of |
| 23:25.41 | JeffM2501 | maybe I'll just skip that then |
| 23:26.08 | JeffM2501 | bast, you care if I put your server launcher on there? ;) |
| 23:26.31 | spldart | I just have a rudimentary iptables setup on debian and have it share from one nic to the other nic. Used one of the built in gui's deb aptitude has in inventory to preset a simple router. |
| 23:26.48 | awilcox | spldart: that doesn't help much :P |
| 23:26.56 | spldart | It's not really firewalling even |
| 23:27.01 | spldart | And no port forwarding |
| 23:27.12 | spldart | I'm not very helpful :( |
| 23:27.22 | *** join/#bzflag BenUrban (n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban) |
| 23:27.23 | awilcox | well my setup has routing, firewalling, port forwarding, selective VPN with user authentication...and bz doesn't work :( |
| 23:27.39 | spldart | hardware or software router? |
| 23:27.45 | awilcox | software |
| 23:27.54 | L4m3r | how hard would it be to add a rear-view mirror flag? :P |
| 23:28.00 | spldart | Ah... Does it have a dmz option like so many hardware routers have? |
| 23:28.03 | awilcox | L4m3r: ooooooh! |
| 23:28.23 | spldart | Nice counter flag to ST |
| 23:28.33 | L4m3r | jesus, there's an entry on the flag ideas page that's a page long |
| 23:28.53 | awilcox | spldart: it supports "A perimeter network (also known as a DMZ, demilitarized zone, and screened subnet)" |
| 23:28.56 | L4m3r | it's probably that sparky1 noob |
| 23:29.06 | me1 | the nuklear fallout one? |
| 23:29.10 | L4m3r | yes |
| 23:29.47 | awilcox | spldart: but it requires a third network adapter for the DMZ part. (in which case, "eth0" = Internet, "eth1" = DMZ, "eth2" = LAN) |
| 23:29.48 | spldart | woah... I may not be much help on that setup... sounds alien to me.. I was goin to suggest to play the local ip of the machine running client in the dmz and see if the problem goes away |
| 23:29.57 | spldart | Woah! |
| 23:30.21 | awilcox | I'm missing a port, I'm sure that's all it is |
| 23:30.33 | spldart | Why it should be necessary to design the software to require that makes no sense to me |
| 23:30.36 | awilcox | I read all the docs that I could, I Googled, I can't find anything =/ |
| 23:31.26 | spldart | I only had to open/forward tcp/udp for the address range that covers most maps direct to my local machine to serve and client bzflag |
| 23:31.46 | awilcox | spldart: I'm trying to play bz on the routing computer |
| 23:31.53 | awilcox | spldart: so I highly doubt DMZ has anything to do with it |
| 23:31.54 | spldart | :-0 |
| 23:32.38 | awilcox | I'm just sick of getting kicked off servers due to "Your end is not using UDP." |
| 23:32.42 | spldart | Query... I seem to remember the ability to create a virtual network device... Perhaps you can use that to get a dmz set up and have the inet appy's use that source for their access |
| 23:33.13 | spldart | what os? |
| 23:33.42 | awilcox | query spldart |
| 23:33.46 | awilcox | er, oops, forgot the slash |
| 23:33.53 | spldart | hehe |
| 23:39.00 | *** join/#bzflag cjhopman (n=cjhopman@24-183-44-113.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) |
| 23:41.25 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 23:53.51 | blast007 | awilcox: what firewall are you using? the one that's part of Routing and Remote Access? |
| 23:54.53 | awilcox | blast007: kind of |
| 23:55.14 | awilcox | no flaming >:( I'm using ISA Server |
| 23:55.36 | blast007 | I'm not even familiar with what that is |
| 23:55.50 | *** join/#bzflag me1_ (n=me1@pool-96-237-103-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 23:55.54 | awilcox | Internet Security and Acceleration Server 2000...it's like RRAS on steroids |
| 23:56.17 | awilcox | just pretend it's rras. what would I be checking? |
| 23:56.25 | blast007 | I have no idea |
| 23:56.33 | blast007 | I don't play games on the server |
| 23:56.35 | blast007 | ;) |
| 23:57.02 | blast007 | then again, I also don't use RRAS, except between our two networks |
| 23:57.11 | blast007 | for the WAN, we just have a regular home-grade router |
| 23:57.20 | awilcox | eesh |
| 23:57.35 | blast007 | not like we have a T3 or anything though, just 2.5mbps DSL |
| 23:57.48 | awilcox | ISA includes "Web caching"...makes the Internet faster for some sites |
| 23:58.02 | awilcox | router caching = 100Mbps vs 8Mbps = win |
| 23:58.03 | a_meteorite | and probably breaks a lot of the internet too |
| 23:58.05 | blast007 | basically it's just a proxy then? |
| 23:58.20 | blast007 | caching proxies can be evil |
| 23:58.22 | awilcox | blast007: it's a proxy, VPN, H.323, and IP gateway with firewall |
| 23:58.33 | blast007 | well, have fun with that |
| 23:58.40 | awilcox | blast007: I'm trying :P |
| 23:58.53 | blast007 | I'd just use Squid if you want a caching proxy |
| 23:59.19 | awilcox | I found squid hard to use |
