IRC log for #bzflag on 20071217

`00:01.18`	`L4m3r`	`lol`
`00:01.36`	`Winny`	`:p`
`00:01.55`	`JeffM`	`we could do particles with out shaders, but it'd need hardware T&L`
`00:02.48`	`Winny`	`I assume the reason not many graphical improvement are made is 'cause you guys want to support older hardware?`
`00:03.11`	`JeffM`	`naw it's mostly time and dev slackitude`
`00:03.20`	`JeffM`	`we could option them`
`00:03.42`	`JeffM`	`and I don't think anyone important would squack too much if we ran like ass on old stuff`
`00:04.44`	`Winny`	`I would assume not many people run on hardware older then 2-3 years`
`00:05.17`	`JeffM`	`the big reasons are slack and lack of interst/knowledge in that area, and there are more important things to do`
`00:05.27`	`JeffM`	`it also ties into the whole, just use another engine thing`
`00:05.32`	`JeffM`	`Winny: you'd be suprised`
`00:05.44`	`JeffM`	`I'd say our average is probalby in the 4-5 year old range.`
`00:05.55`	`Winny`	`wow`
`00:05.59`	`JeffM`	`but still that's like GeForece2`
`00:06.31`	`L4m3r`	`oh, you mean computer age`
`00:06.33`	`L4m3r`	`:P`
`00:06.40`	`Winny`	`rofl`
`00:06.59`	`JeffM`	`the GF2 is 7+ years old`
`00:07.14`	`L4m3r`	`yeah, I'd say that when your box gets too old to run BZFlag, it's time to invest in a new rig`
`00:07.16`	`*** join/#bzflag Ice_Wewe (n=icewewe@ppp-216-106-96-147.storm.ca)`
`00:07.25`	`blast007`	`for what?`
`00:07.28`	`Winny`	`oh dear`
`00:07.30`	`JeffM`	`nice opener`
`00:07.39`	`L4m3r`	`Winny: probably not that old`
`00:07.46`	`JeffM`	`just don't do anything stupid and you'll be fine`
`00:07.51`	`L4m3r`	`iirc it was a mid-range card when it was released, not a top-end one`
`00:07.58`	`JeffM`	`only reason anyone said anything to you is cus you said something.`
`00:08.08`	`Ice_Wewe`	`JeffM: I think I covered everything in the books while I was still part of the community`
`00:08.09`	`JeffM`	`the GF2 ultra was it's top end card`
`00:08.30`	`JeffM`	`and yeah a 6600 came out same time as the 6800`
`00:08.40`	`JeffM`	`it's always been a low end ( not even midrange )`
`00:08.50`	`JeffM`	`the 4Ti was a freaking workhorse`
`00:09.11`	`L4m3r`	`awesome card. better than the 5200 I replaced it with when it died.`
`00:09.21`	`JeffM`	`I had dual 6600's in SLI when I went to PCI-e`
`00:09.32`	`JeffM`	`5200 was also a value card`
`00:09.42`	`L4m3r`	`ran GTA Vice City on my Ti4200 at 1600x1200 without breaking a sweat`
`00:09.43`	`JeffM`	`heck the 5750 was faster then my 6600s`
`00:10.12`	`JeffM`	`we don't realy care dude`
`00:10.35`	`JeffM`	`but back to the point, if someone wanted to add new graphics code I don't think there'd be a problem`
`00:10.43`	`JeffM`	`Ice_Wewe: then just go`
`00:10.53`	`*** part/#bzflag Ice_Wewe (n=icewewe@ppp-216-106-96-147.storm.ca)`
`00:10.54`	`JeffM`	`I mean with 3.0 we got the new shots`
`00:11.04`	`L4m3r`	`I considered buying an 8800GT to replace my 6600GT`
`00:11.11`	`JeffM`	`do it!`
`00:11.13`	`Winny`	`we're suppost to do some GFX programming in class this year, perhaps I could attempt something :p`
`00:11.16`	`L4m3r`	`but then I realized that I probably couldn't power it`
`00:11.24`	`*** part/#bzflag sigonasr2 (i=sigonasr@ip72-200-88-154.tc.ph.cox.net)`
`00:11.27`	`L4m3r`	`and I'm not going to drop that much money on a whim :P`
`00:11.35`	`Winny`	`L4m3r: min of 400watt PSU I think`
`00:11.46`	`JeffM`	`L4m3r: I'm doing it fine on a 550`
`00:11.54`	`JeffM`	`in an AM2 6000+`
`00:11.55`	`blast007`	`hmm`
`00:12.03`	`L4m3r`	`I've got a 430W thermaltake, with two hard drives and two optical drives`
`00:12.07`	`Winny`	`JeffM: how many FPS in BZ?`
`00:12.09`	`JeffM`	`it may be ok`
`00:12.16`	`JeffM`	`Winny: dunno`
`00:12.21`	`JeffM`	`it's not a fair test`
`00:12.22`	`L4m3r`	`just upgraded to an X2 4200+`
`00:12.36`	`JeffM`	`other things cap bz, not the card`
`00:12.48`	`Winny`	`yeah, like v0sync`
`00:12.53`	`Winny`	`v-sync*`
`00:12.56`	`JeffM`	`no like CPU, ram, bus speed`
`00:13.04`	`JeffM`	`bz is not graphicaly intensive`
`00:13.12`	`blast007`	`I think my CPU is the cap on my 7900GTO`
`00:13.19`	`JeffM`	`yeah probably is`
`00:13.22`	`JeffM`	`that or memory`
`00:13.27`	`blast007`	`just a 1.86GHz C2D`
`00:13.28`	`Winny`	`wow`
`00:13.58`	`JeffM`	`once your draw time gets less then the time we give back to the OS, card dosn't matter much ;)`
`00:14.07`	`JeffM`	`Winny: cus it's a slower card`
`00:14.32`	`JeffM`	`its' a value card`
`00:14.46`	`JeffM`	`it isn't meant for gaming so it dosn't accelerate as much stuff`
`00:15.05`	`spldart`	`My 6200 gets about 40 on a busy map`
`00:15.06`	`JeffM`	`that card is a biz card`
`00:15.21`	`JeffM`	`also depends on the res`
`00:15.34`	`Winny`	`1680x1050, full everything`
`00:16.17`	`JeffM`	`that's a very high res for that card`
`00:16.39`	`L4m3r`	`I wonder if the 6600GT is a big difference`
`00:16.53`	`JeffM`	`the GT is a big diff if you overclock`
`00:16.56`	`L4m3r`	`I run bz at 1600x1200 at 85+ fps`
`00:16.58`	`JeffM`	`but for a single card, its' just an OC`
`00:17.06`	`JeffM`	`sorry big diff if you SLI`
`00:17.11`	`JeffM`	`since it has the real SLI connector`
`00:17.18`	`JeffM`	`the flat 6600 dosn't`
`00:17.22`	`L4m3r`	`heh`
`00:17.38`	`L4m3r`	`I have an SLi board but I haven't bothered to get a second card`
`00:17.50`	`L4m3r`	`mostly because I use linux and am not sure how well it'd work`
`00:18.14`	`L4m3r`	`still got that pair of 6600GTs, jeff? :P`
`00:18.39`	`JeffM`	`nope`
`00:18.44`	`JeffM`	`gave those away long ago`
`00:18.47`	`JeffM`	`dtr may have one`
`00:19.22`	`*** join/#bzflag Ice_Wewe (n=icewewe@ppp-216-106-96-147.storm.ca)`
`00:19.36`	`*** join/#bzflag tannerld (n=tanner@adsl-068-209-251-067.sip.asm.bellsouth.net)`
`00:19.36`	`L4m3r`	`oh, and the one I have is the 128mb one`
`00:19.47`	`JeffM`	`I think they were all 128 meg`
`00:19.50`	`Winny`	`Ice_Wewe: already been done`
`00:20.04`	`Winny`	`http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2581`
`00:20.06`	`L4m3r`	`JeffM: nah, I think they made 256mb ones too`
`00:20.08`	`Ice_Wewe`	`Winny: fork over the stats`
`00:20.15`	`spldart`	`Some bzflag players are moldy oldies`
`00:20.15`	`JeffM`	`Ice_Wewe: read`
`00:20.29`	`Ice_Wewe`	`L4m3r: if you're referring to the 5xxx series, they did make cards with 256MB`
`00:20.34`	`JeffM`	`he isn't`
`00:20.44`	`Ice_Wewe`	`ahh, ok`
`00:21.17`	`JeffM`	`Winny: what will the tech you in your graphics class?`
`00:21.19`	`L4m3r`	`blarrrrg cable internet sucks`
`00:22.12`	`Winny`	`JeffM: not 100% sure yet`
`00:22.21`	`JeffM`	`do they have some description?`
`00:22.27`	`Winny`	`think so`
`00:22.37`	`Winny`	`I think its around here somewhere`
`00:22.47`	`Ice_Wewe`	`Winny: just read the literature on the course`
`00:22.54`	`Ice_Wewe`	`Winny: what's the code, I might have it here...`
`00:23.01`	`whodaman-`	`Is this the same guy? http://my.bzflag.org/bb/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=28360`
`00:23.12`	`whodaman-`	`another shadow ?`
`00:23.22`	`whodaman-`	`he joined couple weeks ago...`
`00:23.23`	`Ice_Wewe`	`Zorro strickes again...`
`00:23.33`	`Ice_Wewe`	`gah, can't spell`
`00:23.34`	`Winny`	`Ice_Wewe: I'm not sure if saxberg teaches us GFX programming this year or next.`
`00:23.44`	`Ice_Wewe`	`Winny: next`
`00:24.05`	`Ice_Wewe`	`Winny: This is current year programming?`
`00:24.20`	`Ice_Wewe`	`Winny: turing`
`00:24.25`	`Winny`	`ick.`
`00:24.28`	`Ice_Wewe`	`Winny: no GFX`
`00:26.01`	`Ice_Wewe`	`I cannot believe BZFlag hasn't join the armada of games converting to DX10`
`00:26.09`	`Ice_Wewe`	`think of the improvement!`
`00:26.19`	`Ice_Wewe`	`and how few people will actually be able to play...`
`00:26.27`	`JeffM`	`you can stop now`
`00:26.36`	`Ice_Wewe`	`heh...`
`00:26.37`	`Ice_Wewe`	`find.`
`00:26.48`	`whodaman-`	`*fine`
`00:28.56`	`Ice_Wewe`	`following up on the mean age question, was there a poll done to access the graphics ability of most of the players?`
`00:28.58`	`L4m3r`	`Lol, directX`
`00:29.17`	`JeffM`	`Ice_Wewe: probalby`
`00:29.21`	`JeffM`	`search the fourms`
`00:29.24`	`L4m3r`	`while we're at it, let's rewrite BZFlag in .NET`
`00:29.34`	`JeffM`	`if we go with ogre we'd pick up direct X`
`00:29.47`	`JeffM`	`L4m3r: it'd run with mono, and not be THAT bad of a change`
`00:29.51`	`JeffM`	`.net sucks a lot less`
`00:31.55`	`*** join/#bzflag BZFlagr04 (n=48e349b0@gateway/web/cgi-irc/bzflagr.net/x-04b2a538d9c85ca8)`
`00:32.01`	`BZFlagr04`	`Jeff`
`00:32.11`	`BZFlagr04`	`jeffm`
`00:32.17`	`JeffM`	`yes`
`00:32.24`	`Winny`	`ugh. I never removed #bzflag from my CGI:IRC`
`00:32.29`	`BZFlagr04`	`how do talk to you privatley?`
`00:32.42`	`JeffM`	`I just sent you a message`
`00:32.46`	`L4m3r`	`hahaha`
`00:32.46`	`JeffM`	`should show up at the bottom`
`00:32.47`	`JeffM`	`click on it`
`00:32.47`	`BZFlagr04`	`I know`
`00:32.53`	`BZFlagr04`	`?`
`00:32.56`	`JeffM`	`and type in it`
`00:32.58`	`BZFlagr04`	`pm?`
`00:33.01`	`JeffM`	`yes`
`00:33.04`	`L4m3r`	`the newegg calculator says I need more power than I have for the hardware I'm already using`
`00:33.06`	`BZFlagr04`	`I saw`
`00:33.08`	`BZFlagr04`	`but`
`00:33.13`	`JeffM`	`click on it`
`00:33.13`	`L4m3r`	`no upgrade for me :(`
`00:33.18`	`BZFlagr04`	`you deactivated my other ine`
`00:33.21`	`BZFlagr04`	`one*`
`00:33.29`	`BZFlagr04`	`brb`
`00:33.31`	`JeffM`	`CLICK ON THE THING THAT SAYS MY NAME`
`00:34.56`	`JeffM`	`ok it shows up at the top, not the botom`
`00:35.00`	`JeffM`	`but click on it and type to me`
`00:35.19`	`BZFlagr04`	`Jeff`
`00:35.29`	`JeffM`	`yes`
`00:37.25`	`brlcad`	`jeff`
`00:37.39`	`brlcad`	`i saw`
`00:37.48`	`brlcad`	`?`
`00:37.50`	`brlcad`	`brb`
`00:38.06`	`blast007`	`hehe`
`00:38.43`	`JeffM`	`?`
`00:39.17`	`brlcad`	`yes`
`00:39.33`	`brlcad`	`but`
`00:39.39`	`brlcad`	`incoherent`
`00:41.55`	`brlcad`	`aww, he left`
`00:42.02`	`JeffM`	`yeah so his reasoing was "My dad said it was ok"`
`00:42.32`	`Winny`	`pft, duh, his dad is obviously god`
`00:42.34`	`JeffM`	`it dosn't matter if the lie came from an adult, or a child, it's still a lie`
`00:42.41`	`*** join/#bzflag BZFlagr04 (n=48e349b0@gateway/web/cgi-irc/bzflagr.net/x-a660f6878d082e26)`
`00:42.48`	`whodaman-`	`speak of the devil`
`00:42.58`	`L4m3r`	`god, it's already 5pm`
`00:43.08`	`L4m3r`	`the day is short when you wake up at 2`
`00:43.13`	`whodaman-`	`L4m3r, *1:43AM`
`00:43.15`	`L4m3r`	`>_<`
`00:44.58`	`JeffM`	`we'll we'll see if we get a coppa letter`
`00:46.10`	`Winny`	`somehow I doubt it`
`00:46.23`	`JeffM`	`we'll see`
`00:46.29`	`JeffM`	`it happens more often then you'd think`
`00:46.48`	`JeffM`	`I'd say over 50% of the under 13's just didn't read the page`
`00:47.40`	`Winny`	`I remember reading somewhere less then 5% of people read ULAs`
`00:49.06`	`*** join/#bzflag BZFlagr06 (n=48e349b0@gateway/web/cgi-irc/bzflagr.net/x-25b809e2b7b95b31)`
`00:59.29`	`*** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@CPE-75-81-248-105.we.res.rr.com)`
`00:59.29`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ`
`01:01.10`	`*** join/#bzflag gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-135-224-200.range86-135.btcentralplus.com)`
`01:13.43`	`*** part/#bzflag Ice_Wewe (n=icewewe@ppp-216-106-96-147.storm.ca)`
`01:24.10`	`Winny`	`JeffM: would you have any reccomendations of good ways to start learning C++?`
`01:24.21`	`JeffM`	`google c++ tutorials`
`01:29.26`	`Macrosoft`	`Winny: http://www.cplusplus.com/`
`01:30.01`	`*** join/#bzflag ShadowSpectre (n=Default@24-197-139-149.dhcp.spbg.sc.charter.com)`
`01:30.05`	`L4m3r`	`Winny: go to college :D`
`01:30.14`	`Winny`	`L4m3r: I would if I could but I can't`
`01:30.16`	`*** join/#bzflag Djpenguin (n=David@adsl-216-102-90-233.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)`
`01:30.33`	`Macrosoft`	`Winny: might want to get one of those big reference books`
`01:30.35`	`L4m3r`	`or maybe get a textbook... but I suppose it depends on your learning preference`
`01:31.59`	`Macrosoft`	`L4m3r: though its nice to have a teacher when you make a tiny error and you're like "gah! why the **** wont it compile!!"`
`01:32.54`	`JeffM`	`if you started the tutorials and had questions I'm sure you could find a number of people here willing to help you with questions.`
`01:33.55`	`L4m3r`	`Macrosoft: the compiler will help you spot most errors like that`
`01:34.11`	`L4m3r`	`the one that they have trouble with is forgetting the ; after a class declaration`
`01:35.30`	`Macrosoft`	`L4m3r: i usually get weird errors if i leave of a ';'. g++ starts saying that it expected something else before some stuff`
`01:35.55`	`L4m3r`	`yeah, it will complain about the following line`
`01:35.57`	`L4m3r`	`usually`
`01:35.59`	`JeffM`	`I'd have no problem looking at problems people had and helping, as long as it's not stupid questions like "LOL waht is a PTR!!!"`
`01:36.12`	`L4m3r`	`yay pointers`
`01:36.38`	`L4m3r`	`the scourge of programming newbs :P`
`01:36.44`	`TD-Linux`	`I like learning with reference books`
`01:37.15`	`TD-Linux`	`tutorials are nice but I wouldn't learn an entire language with them`
`01:37.29`	`KTL`	`i really dont understand why but by floormate who studies psychology, in a course called "computer use for pyschologists", has to learn c++`
`01:37.38`	`KTL`	`s/by/my/`
`01:37.51`	`JeffM`	`prety much every science has to learn a programing langauge now`
`01:38.01`	`JeffM`	`since computer software is used so much in all branches`
`01:38.09`	`KTL`	`but why from all languages c++ and not something type safe`
`01:38.20`	`JeffM`	`depends on the school`
`01:38.27`	`JeffM`	`usualy they get away with java`
`01:39.37`	`JeffM`	`but it is more and more common`
`01:39.49`	`JeffM`	`basicly shows them what a computer can do, and how it does it`
`01:39.51`	`KTL`	`(he is currently laughing with someones spelling :D)`
`01:40.16`	`JeffM`	`you'd be suprised what software ideas other sciences come up with once they know what is possible :)`
`01:40.47`	`KTL`	`he was studiing about experiments on mice`
`01:41.14`	`JeffM`	`maybe he'd come up with an idea about software that cross refrences things about people, etc..`
`01:41.15`	`KTL`	`for example: hang a mouse by its tail on some object, and measure how long the mouse will try to keep moving`
`01:41.41`	`KTL`	`learning him c++ could lead to mice-genocide`
`01:44.32`	`JeffM`	`yeah it is odd that they picked that one, but maybe they don't have a strong faculty for the otehrs.`
`01:54.38`	`AHA`	`JeffM: do you use TortoiseSVN?`
`01:54.44`	`JeffM`	`yes`
`01:54.48`	`JeffM`	`and ankh`
`01:55.08`	`AHA`	`could you give me a little tutorial on it?`
`01:55.18`	`JeffM`	`what do you need to know?`
`01:55.48`	`AHA`	`like how to put files into a repository, how to commit, etc`
`01:56.56`	`JeffM`	`an existing repository?`
`01:57.02`	`AHA`	`yes`
`01:57.06`	`JeffM`	`drag file in`
`01:57.07`	`JeffM`	`right click`
`01:57.18`	`JeffM`	`tortoiseSVN menu -> add`
`01:57.30`	`AHA`	`right click on the files?`
`01:57.33`	`AHA`	`or the repo?`
`01:57.34`	`JeffM`	`then just right click in the dir when all the files are added and hit commit`
`01:57.38`	`JeffM`	`the file`
`01:57.43`	`JeffM`	`or files`
`01:57.44`	`JeffM`	`or dirs`
`01:57.49`	`JeffM`	`click on what you want to add`
`01:57.52`	`AHA`	`ok`
`01:57.53`	`JeffM`	`then add it`
`01:57.54`	`AHA`	`thanks`
`01:58.11`	`JeffM`	`then click on the white part of the top repo dir, or the dir itself and hit commit to send it`
`01:58.14`	`JeffM`	`its' butt simple`
`02:01.24`	`L4m3r`	`refresh my memory... how do I get the client to do hardware rendering? (linux/fglrx)`
`02:02.16`	`JeffM`	`install drivers that do it`
`02:02.20`	`JeffM`	`the client asks for the best it can get`
`02:02.22`	`Macrosoft`	`L4m3r: it usually requires a blood sacrifice :p`
`02:02.24`	`JeffM`	`it's up to the driver to do it`
`02:02.52`	`Macrosoft`	`L4m3r: i couldnt even get fglrx to work when i tried`
`02:03.15`	`JeffM`	`trunk "should" build again now`
`02:03.19`	`JeffM`	`I moved the message manager to common`
`02:03.28`	`JeffM`	`and made it not use any server methods`
`02:06.19`	`L4m3r`	`:\`
`02:06.30`	`*** join/#bzflag whodaman-_ (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-)`
`02:07.07`	`a_meteorite`	`CIA-23 hates you`
`02:09.52`	`brlcad`	`needs to be in game, not common`
`02:10.10`	`brlcad`	`otherwise it adds a cyclic dependency on libcommon`
`02:11.40`	`brlcad`	`ahh, he's not here`
`02:17.12`	`*** join/#bzflag BenUrban_ (n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban)`
`02:17.16`	`Winny`	`delusional: have you done any tests to show how much faster using drawinfo is at rendering meshes then normal meshes, performace-wise?`
`02:19.29`	`delusional`	`my starship enterprise... 117,000 polys.... my intel mac.... rendered as faces, 16 FPS, rendered as drawinfo 75 FPS`
`02:19.39`	`Winny`	`wow`
`02:19.58`	`Winny`	`ok. thanks`
`02:20.44`	`delusional`	`as a general rule.. 2/3 less data is sent to the renderer as drawinfo`
`02:21.59`	`delusional`	`using tristrips would cut another almost 1/3 off of that number`
`02:29.46`	`Winny`	`is there any disadvantage to using tristrips, delusional?`
`02:30.37`	`*** join/#bzflag Macrosoft (n=Macrosof@c-75-65-81-245.hsd1.la.comcast.net)`
`02:31.01`	`delusional`	`i haven't gone too far into that area, the only converter i have loses all materials`
`02:31.13`	`Winny`	`ah, ouch`
`02:31.56`	`delusional`	`but there should be no disadvantages`
`02:32.14`	`Winny`	`I take it http://cbg.bzflag.org/images/A-Delusion/psych/bzfi0100.png was done with no tristrips, then?`
`02:33.37`	`*** join/#bzflag iWinny (n=kylevane@unaffiliated/winny)`
`02:33.53`	`Winny`	`ick`
`02:33.58`	`Winny`	`my mom opened colloquy`
`02:34.01`	`delusional`	`I only did one or two small experiments with strips`
`02:34.07`	`Winny`	`iWinny: close the program you just opened`
`02:34.44`	`TD-Linux`	`delusional: your statement must sound funny to Winny's mom, out of context :P`
`02:35.17`	`Winny`	`rofl`
`02:36.34`	`*** join/#bzflag bier_ (n=bier@p54A54E2E.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`02:37.43`	`Macrosoft`	`wierdness http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=11940`
`02:40.06`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG_ (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-0-0-cust307.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`02:42.29`	`delusional`	`http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~stripe/ <-- I use that now there are lots more, just google for stripifier`
`02:42.30`	`*** join/#bzflag AHA (n=bzhearta@unaffiliated/aha)`
`02:43.57`	`delusional`	`make sure your model is fully triangulated, or the stripifier may have an option to triangulate during conversion`
`02:45.39`	`delusional`	`but jeff added some things into modeltool that read the "objf" format produced by stripe.... too bad stripe loses all materials`
`02:47.15`	`*** join/#bzflag AHA (n=bzhearta@ool-44c75115.dyn.optonline.net)`
`02:49.02`	`delusional`	`it's another challenge to figure out objects that would actually benefit from the leverage of drawinfo. BZflag maps just aren't big enough to really need it. LOD is where the payoff is.`
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`03:05.10`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v Manu] by irc.freenode.net`
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`03:05.19`	`L4m3r`	`netsplit... run for your life!`
`03:05.36`	`Macrosoft`	`we're safe now`
`03:05.36`	`*** join/#bzflag PrezzKennedy (i=Matt@74.86.45.130) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`03:05.36`	`inchworm`	`everybody got their buddy?`
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`03:05.36`	`a_meteorite`	`Buddy time!`
`03:05.51`	`*** join/#bzflag Deepa\|AFK (i=deepa@abused.armchairs.be) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`03:06.14`	`inchworm`	`who's your buddy!`
`03:06.34`	`a_meteorite`	`you of course!`
`03:13.25`	`*** join/#bzflag brlcad (n=sean@pdpc/supporter/silver/brlcad)`
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`03:13.25`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o brlcad] by irc.freenode.net`
`03:17.25`	`Thumper_`	`that's what the rope is for right?`
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`03:26.58`	`TD-Linux`	`Thumper_: I could answer you, but you just cracked my neck`
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`03:40.21`	`Macrosoft`	`Winny: btw, i thought you already knew c++`
`03:43.37`	`JeffM`	`puttering in it and knowing it are not the same thing ;)`
`03:49.43`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@about/essy/fan/CBG)`
`04:02.16`	`Winny`	`Macrosoft: I can hack it, but I can't write it from sctatch`
`04:04.02`	`JeffM`	`you decide what you want to do?`
`04:04.19`	`*** join/#bzflag QuantumBeep (n=QuantumB@doc-72-47-73-208.leesville.la.cebridge.net)`
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`04:14.07`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v L4m3r] by ChanServ`
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`04:57.58`	`Constitution`	`JeffM: okay (regarding discussion cheaters' tactics)`
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`09:34.15`	`*** join/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@vpn199-036.hrz.uni-oldenburg.de)`
`09:39.11`	`L4m3r`	`perhaps we should fix that playerID -> playerID typo in the 2.0 API`
`09:39.39`	`L4m3r`	`already done in trunk... but it'd break existing plug-ins. Hm.`
`10:04.46`	`lepoulpe303`	`anyone has a clue how are handled team score updates in bzfs ?`
`10:13.36`	`*** join/#bzflag PurpleSponge (n=PurpleSp@ip225-152-212-87.adsl2.versatel.nl)`
`10:15.56`	`*** join/#bzflag lepoulpebot (n=lepoulpe@LSt-Amand-152-32-5-35.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr)`
`10:16.04`	`lepoulpe303`	`lepoulpebot: connect tlz.bzflag.org:5154`
`10:16.05`	`lepoulpebot`	`Connecting to TLZ.BZFLAG.ORG:5154`
`10:16.07`	`lepoulpebot`	`Connected!`
`10:16.13`	`lepoulpe303`	`lepoulpebot: players`
`10:16.13`	`lepoulpebot`	`Ptasiok PL,Deception,sm[p],gorgomol,lepoulpebot,Smiley,Sparky1`
`10:16.26`	`lepoulpe303`	`lepoulpebot: player gorgomol`
`10:16.27`	`lepoulpebot`	`gorgomol (win/lost/tk):26 / 27 / 1`
`10:16.45`	`lepoulpe303`	`lepoulpebot: player Ptasiok PL`
`10:16.46`	`lepoulpebot`	`Ptasiok PL (win/lost/tk):19712 / 19968 / 1280`
`10:17.06`	`lepoulpe303`	`hmm hmm hmmm`
`10:17.22`	`lepoulpe303`	`lepoulpebot: player tralala`
`10:17.23`	`lepoulpebot`	`tralala (win/lost/tk):0 / 0 / 0`
`10:17.50`	`lepoulpe303`	`lepoulpebot: player Ptasiok PL`
`10:17.51`	`lepoulpebot`	`Ptasiok PL (win/lost/tk):20224 / 20480 / 1280`
`10:18.12`	`lepoulpe303`	`500 points in a minute ... what a player`
`10:19.34`	`lepoulpe303`	`manu : ping ?`
`10:20.46`	`Manu`	`lepoulpe303: pong`
`10:21.12`	`lepoulpe303`	`Manu: :) please may you try to ask "players" to lepoulpebot ?`
`10:21.24`	`Manu`	`lepoulpebot: players`
`10:21.25`	`lepoulpebot`	`Ptasiok PL,Deception,sm[p],gorgomol,lepoulpebot,tralala,Christopher Reeves Wheelchair,Smiley,Sparky1`
`10:21.39`	`Manu`	`wow.. the cheater is there :)`
`10:21.56`	`lepoulpe303`	`who is it ?`
`10:22.12`	`Manu`	`Christopher Reeves Wh...`
`10:22.26`	`lepoulpe303`	`i would have bet it`
`10:22.29`	`Manu`	`what's the server?`
`10:22.38`	`lepoulpe303`	`zeebrothers`
`10:22.58`	`lepoulpe303`	`tlz.bzflag.org:5154`
`10:23.05`	`Manu`	`yes, I see`
`10:23.29`	`Manu`	`he ran in fear :)`
`10:23.39`	`PurpleSponge`	`:P`
`10:23.39`	`lepoulpebot`	`You're not allowed to execute this command...`
`10:23.53`	`lepoulpe303`	`huh`
`10:24.02`	`PurpleSponge`	`indeed huh`
`10:24.02`	`lepoulpebot`	`You're not allowed to execute this command...`
`10:24.28`	`lepoulpe303`	`bot can't send PM atm 'cause it isn't registered`
`10:24.41`	`Manu`	`ncu`
`10:24.47`	`Manu`	`lol`
`10:25.02`	`Manu`	`too much windows :/`
`10:25.13`	`lepoulpe303`	`lol`
`10:25.24`	`Manu`	`had three bzflags in window mode ;)`
`10:25.28`	`PurpleSponge`	`does it the bot start mumbling on evry sentence i type ?`
`10:25.28`	`lepoulpebot`	`You're not allowed to execute this command...`
`10:26.00`	`lepoulpe303`	`ok ; so basically : bot identifies correctly speaker but doesn't handle scores`
`10:26.18`	`lepoulpe303`	`and btw should reject PM`
`10:26.43`	`lepoulpe303`	`lepoulpebot: showfight`
`10:26.44`	`lepoulpebot`	`Smiley killed gorgomol`
`10:26.46`	`lepoulpebot`	`sm[p] killed Deception`
`10:27.10`	`lepoulpebot`	`sm[p] killed tralala`
`10:27.18`	`lepoulpe303`	`lepoulpebot: showfight`
`10:27.33`	`lepoulpe303`	`ok ok ok ; there's work remainign`
`10:35.55`	`*** join/#bzflag blast007 (n=blast007@pdpc/supporter/active/blast007)`
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`17:19.29`	`*** join/#bzflag Macrosoft_ (n=Macrosof@c-75-65-81-245.hsd1.la.comcast.net)`
`17:21.08`	`*** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501)`
`17:21.08`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ`
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`17:55.09`	`*** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (n=Spazzy_M@unaffiliated/spazzymcgee)`
`17:58.02`	`*** join/#bzflag wanda (n=coredump@p54999EFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`17:59.37`	`wanda`	`DTRemenak: happy new Year .. :-)`
`18:00.27`	`wanda`	`ping JeffM2501`
`18:00.31`	`JeffM2501`	`?`
`18:01.07`	`wanda`	`hi, could you please remove BufferedNetworkMessage_stub.cxx from src/bzflag/Makefile.am?`
`18:01.14`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`18:01.27`	`JeffM2501`	`and the file too :)`
`18:01.37`	`wanda`	`than, it builds on my linux again:-)`
`18:01.47`	`wanda`	`a=e`
`18:02.47`	`wanda`	`the file is not necc. any more, i think ... good job`
`18:02.52`	`*** join/#bzflag delusional_ (n=delusion@pool-151-201-121-24.pitt.east.verizon.net)`
`18:03.05`	`JeffM2501`	`done`
`18:03.10`	`wanda`	`thanks`
`18:03.20`	`JeffM2501`	`does it actualy work?`
`18:03.25`	`JeffM2501`	`like to play?`
`18:03.51`	`wanda`	`i didnt join so far ...`
`18:04.09`	`wanda`	`where to meet?`
`18:04.16`	`JeffM2501`	`it was just a qestion`
`18:04.23`	`JeffM2501`	`curiousity`
`18:04.27`	`JeffM2501`	`as it's untested`
`18:05.29`	`wanda`	`i am at bzflag3.norang.ca:10000`
`18:05.35`	`JeffM2501`	`I can not test`
`18:05.39`	`JeffM2501`	`did it connect and work?`
`18:06.12`	`wanda`	`100% ok til now`
`18:06.16`	`JeffM2501`	`cool`
`18:07.02`	`JeffM2501`	`that means the messages are at least going thu :)`
`18:07.35`	`wanda`	`yeah ... seems to work as i can see`
`18:07.49`	`JeffM2501`	`we'll have to see how the performance is`
`18:08.14`	`JeffM2501`	`probalby need to change it to not spurt all the messages out at the end of the loop but dole them out aysnc`
`18:09.53`	`wanda`	`i didnt follow all the changes and even dont understand them :-) so i cant discuss this topic .. sry`
`18:10.06`	`JeffM2501`	`didn't expect you to :)`
`18:10.11`	`JeffM2501`	`was more of just a general statement`
`18:12.00`	`wanda`	`yesterday, DTRemenak said I have to wait until next year for a clean build again ... Happy New Year DTRemenak`
`18:12.39`	`JeffM2501`	`wondrer why he said that`
`18:12.50`	`wanda`	`just a joke :-)`
`18:12.59`	`JeffM2501`	`I may break things again`
`18:13.02`	`JeffM2501`	`ya never know`
`18:13.30`	`wanda`	`I know`
`18:14.28`	`wanda`	`ok, ty JeffM2501, builds ok, can join .. I will go to kill some teammates .. bye`
`18:14.56`	`*** part/#bzflag wanda (n=coredump@p54999EFC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`18:19.15`	`Winny`	`JeffM2501: any idea where the base texture came from? another quake texture?`
`18:21.05`	`JeffM2501`	`the CTF base texture?`
`18:21.32`	`Winny`	`the base wall, sorry`
`18:21.57`	`JeffM2501`	`basewall, yeah that's an evil texture`
`18:23.00`	`JeffM2501`	`why?`
`18:23.14`	`JeffM2501`	`probably should replace it`
`18:23.29`	`JeffM2501`	`with something we made`
`18:24.05`	`Winny`	`trying to find a higher-rez version`
`18:24.13`	`JeffM2501`	`that's iot`
`18:24.14`	`JeffM2501`	`it`
`18:24.14`	`Winny`	`I like the dirt one it`
`18:24.30`	`Winny`	`ahh, darn`
`18:24.56`	`JeffM2501`	`quake 3 didn't exactly have huge textures ;)`
`18:25.07`	`JeffM2501`	`if you want to make a new one please feel free`
`18:25.51`	`Winny`	`k`
`18:32.05`	`*** join/#bzflag PrezKennedy (i=Matt@74.86.45.130)`
`18:40.19`	`*** join/#bzflag stylus_ (i=stylus@freenode/helper/stylus)`
`18:42.10`	`*** join/#bzflag Erroneous (n=dtremena@67-131-219-2.dia.static.qwest.net)`
`18:43.30`	`Thumper_`	`JeffM2501: the server at bzflag3.norang.ca:10000 is not up to date due to compiler warnings treated as errors in the debug build`
`18:45.43`	`Winny`	`I wonder if anyone would play on a map if it had 30mb of textures :/`
`18:45.45`	`JeffM2501`	`Thumper_, when did you try to build last?`
`18:45.59`	`Thumper_`	`it tries every morning`
`18:46.14`	`JeffM2501`	`can you give me the last list of warnings?`
`18:46.20`	`Thumper_`	`are you done with your changes? I can fix the warnings`
`18:46.37`	`JeffM2501`	`done, no. but go and fix them`
`18:46.42`	`JeffM2501`	`the big chunks are done`
`18:46.48`	`Thumper_`	`BufferedNetworkMessage.cxx: In member function 'bool BufferedNetworkMessage::process()':`
`18:46.51`	`Thumper_`	`BufferedNetworkMessage.cxx:172: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressions`
`18:46.55`	`JeffM2501`	`mostly I want to know what they are so I can try to not make them again`
`18:46.57`	`Thumper_`	`it dies on the first one`
`18:46.59`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`18:47.02`	`JeffM2501`	`signed`
`18:47.03`	`Thumper_`	`when warnings treated as errors`
`18:47.11`	`JeffM2501`	`musta missed one`
`18:47.35`	`JeffM2501`	`I try to keep on the ball about those as VC complains about them too`
`18:49.16`	`JeffM2501`	`let me make the callbacks return a size_t`
`18:49.48`	`Thumper_`	`I can keep pushing the daily errors at you until if works if you want :)`
`18:50.21`	`JeffM2501`	`knowing them would not be a bad thing`
`18:51.51`	`JeffM2501`	`fixed`
`19:02.31`	`Thumper_`	`JeffM2501: http://bzflag.pastebin.com/m365ce785`
`19:10.20`	`JeffM2501`	`should be goodl now`
`19:10.48`	`Thumper_`	`hmm email notification is slow ... there it is`
`19:11.47`	`brlcad`	`luck of the draw`
`19:11.51`	`blast007`	`the one on #commits is working`
`19:11.57`	`blast007`	`so CIA-MIA would work`
`19:12.00`	`JeffM2501`	`fire up the CIA MIA!`
`19:12.09`	`Thumper_`	`JeffM2501: http://bzflag.pastebin.com/m36c00983`
`19:12.17`	`JeffM2501`	`no telling till it goes out tho :(`
`19:12.30`	`brlcad`	`i'm suspecting that there's a project or few that have bad configs or are on channels that are misconfigured in cia`
`19:12.59`	`JeffM2501`	`and that's what's killing the bot?`
`19:13.01`	`brlcad`	`because it seems to consistently be just a small handful that eventually don't respond`
`19:13.33`	`brlcad`	`and then they begin a backlog of work and reattempts that start taking them all down after a couple weeks`
`19:13.52`	`brlcad`	`but it seems to begin without just about a dozen projects`
`19:14.35`	`brlcad`	`just a guess, but it fits the bill`
`19:15.27`	`JeffM2501`	`Thumper_, fixed`
`19:16.53`	`*** join/#bzflag Warinthestar (n=Warinthe@1.168.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com)`
`19:21.45`	`Thumper_`	`JeffM2501: build completes \o/`
`19:22.07`	`Thumper_`	`bzflag3.norang.ca:10000 should update in the morning`
`19:22.14`	`L4m3r`	`JeffM2501: I can build but the client segfaults when I start it`
`19:22.22`	`L4m3r`	`(debian)`
`19:22.35`	`Thumper_`	`hmm mine too`
`19:25.11`	`Thumper_`	`JeffM2501: bzflag backtrace http://bzflag.pastebin.com/m615fb174`
`19:51.03`	`*** join/#bzflag Suspect (n=Suspect@68-114-69-187.dhcp.plt.ny.charter.com)`
`19:54.40`	`*** join/#bzflag Teppic (n=Teppic@87-194-205-16.bethere.co.uk)`
`20:09.33`	`Winny`	`JeffM2501: is PNG still the only image format BZ supports?`
`20:14.35`	`*** join/#bzflag a_meteor (n=cfe91b02@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-d862b95620e41665)`
`20:20.53`	`*** join/#bzflag Pommes (n=Pommes@about/essy/frenchy/Pommes)`
`20:26.14`	`L4m3r`	`Winny, it doesn't matter. early 2.0 clients don't support anything else, so it'd be silly to use anything other than PNG in a map`
`20:27.07`	`Winny`	`L4m3r: Im just worried, since i have lots of texture baking :/`
`20:27.25`	`Winny`	`and I don't think Ive seen someone using a <2.0.6 client for a long time`
`20:27.28`	`L4m3r`	`you can probably use PNG8 to compress them... a lot`
`20:28.16`	`Winny`	`I was using PNGOUT`
`20:28.20`	`Winny`	`it only did ~30%`
`20:35.34`	`blast007`	`L4m3r: does bz support 8-bit PNGs? don't think I ever tried that`
`20:36.00`	`JeffM2501`	`Winny, png and SGI`
`20:36.09`	`Winny`	`JeffM2501: darn, ok.`
`20:36.12`	`Winny`	`was hoping for JPG ;)`
`20:36.17`	`JeffM2501`	`nope`
`20:36.27`	`L4m3r`	`blast007: I use 8-bit PNGs for almost anything that doesn't require transparency`
`20:36.30`	`JeffM2501`	`jpg is losless`
`20:36.33`	`L4m3r`	`iirc they worked fine`
`20:36.35`	`JeffM2501`	`sory lossy`
`20:36.46`	`JeffM2501`	`png is lossless`
`20:37.24`	`JeffM2501`	`and wow, I can NOT read that backtrace`
`20:37.56`	`JeffM2501`	`wait, that's in MOTD finalisaation?`
`20:38.00`	`JeffM2501`	`that ain't my code`
`20:38.49`	`JeffM2501`	`probalby some issue with the auto update code that DTRemenak done did`
`20:38.53`	`JeffM2501`	`I guess`
`20:39.23`	`Erroneous`	`someone else complained about that sometime recently. thought it was resolved though.`
`20:39.35`	`JeffM2501`	`I know not`
`20:43.08`	`brlcad`	`or our use of it`
`20:48.06`	`JeffM2501`	`could be`
`20:48.21`	`JeffM2501`	`maybe I'll move over the one from the API later`
`20:49.58`	`*** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker)`
`20:49.58`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ`
`21:07.24`	`*** join/#bzflag BZFlagr43 (n=48e349b0@gateway/web/cgi-irc/bzflagr.net/x-234ec8fcaccc28f1)`
`21:10.00`	`Winny`	`ick`
`21:10.01`	`*** join/#bzflag BZFlagr43 (n=48e349b0@gateway/web/cgi-irc/bzflagr.net/x-ef617f20bd0f19cb)`
`21:10.12`	`BZFlagr43`	`...`
`21:11.00`	`JeffM2501`	`the web IRC you are using`
`21:11.09`	`Winny`	`JeffM2501: want #bzchat gone too?`
`21:11.19`	`JeffM2501`	`he wanted to remove it since it's the same as the one we have on my.bzflag.org`
`21:11.21`	`JeffM2501`	`Winny, up to yu`
`21:11.24`	`JeffM2501`	`but probalby`
`21:11.28`	`JeffM2501`	`since it's the same as the main one`
`21:12.23`	`Winny`	`done`
`21:16.23`	`JeffM2501`	`bet that was shadow again`
`21:16.32`	`Winny`	`yeah, the IP is the same`
`21:16.46`	`JeffM2501`	`dude just needs to remake his account`
`21:16.46`	`Winny`	`well, at least the "48e" part is`
`21:16.52`	`JeffM2501`	`sad that's it's that hard for him`
`21:20.27`	`Winny`	`you should need to pass a competency test to register.`
`21:21.43`	`blast007`	`Winny: but then how am I supposed to get in!`
`21:21.44`	`blast007`	`;)`
`21:22.06`	`Winny`	`:p`
`21:22.30`	`*** join/#bzflag bz04 (n=48e349b0@bz.bzflag.bz)`
`21:22.46`	`JeffM2501`	`bz04, I assume you are shadow?`
`21:23.00`	`Winny`	`yes, look at the IP.`
`21:23.13`	`JeffM2501`	`let him answer ;)`
`21:23.28`	`*** join/#bzflag F687s (n=noah@cpe-71-67-112-44.woh.res.rr.com)`
`21:25.14`	`Macrosoft`	`is this it: 70.227.73.176`
`21:25.41`	`JeffM2501`	`guys , it dosn't matter`
`21:25.47`	`JeffM2501`	`just let him say what he's got to say`
`21:25.54`	`Macrosoft`	`JeffM2501: he left`
`21:25.58`	`JeffM2501`	`I know`
`21:26.04`	`JeffM2501`	`but I'm betting he'll come back`
`21:26.10`	`JeffM2501`	`he's NOT in any trouble`
`21:26.14`	`JeffM2501`	`he's just horibly confused`
`21:26.20`	`JeffM2501`	`and very jumpy`
`21:27.13`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG_ (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-0-0-cust307.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`21:28.50`	`TimRiker`	`tell me about shadow...`
`21:29.06`	`TimRiker`	`* is not a valid character for phpbb registration, is it?`
`21:29.09`	`JeffM2501`	`it is`
`21:29.15`	`TimRiker`	`I don't see a shadow account listed.`
`21:29.23`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah cus he hasn't registerd it yet`
`21:29.27`	`JeffM2501`	`I've told him to register it`
`21:29.31`	`JeffM2501`	`then I'll add it to the group`
`21:29.32`	`TimRiker`	`there is a -shadow- and a >shadow< but not a shadow`
`21:29.36`	`JeffM2501`	`but he hasn't registered`
`21:29.39`	`JeffM2501`	`they are other people`
`21:29.54`	`JeffM2501`	`he's very excitable, and dosn't read all the instructions`
`21:30.04`	`TimRiker`	`heh.`
`21:30.15`	`Winny`	`JeffM2501: I'm talking to him now, he doesn't seem to get the concept of IRC... I told him to get one of his parents to join in here.`
`21:30.26`	`JeffM2501`	`Winny, no no no`
`21:30.28`	`JeffM2501`	`we don't need that`
`21:30.37`	`JeffM2501`	`just tell him to create his shadow account`
`21:30.38`	`JeffM2501`	`that's it`
`21:30.40`	`Winny`	`k`
`21:30.45`	`JeffM2501`	`we've got all the parent stuff we need`
`21:30.53`	`JeffM2501`	`he just has to make the account`
`21:30.58`	`JeffM2501`	`tha'ts it`
`21:30.58`	`*** join/#bzflag The_Vaxorcist (n=phillip@dial-209-148-96-49.sonic.net)`
`21:31.39`	`JeffM2501`	`I think both him and his dad thign we just need to "activate" his old account, and don't understand that is was deleted, so it's gone.`
`21:31.48`	`Winny`	`should he click on under 13, or above? under, I assume.`
`21:31.54`	`JeffM2501`	`dosn't mater`
`21:31.54`	`TimRiker`	`k. should I email him and his parent again with redundant instructions? or just wait it out?`
`21:31.58`	`JeffM2501`	`over 13 is fine`
`21:32.01`	`JeffM2501`	`and I'll add him`
`21:32.15`	`JeffM2501`	`TimRiker, I'll take care of it, I've been in contact with his dad too`
`21:32.20`	`TimRiker`	`ok`
`21:32.21`	`JeffM2501`	`just as long as you have it on file we are cool`
`21:32.33`	`TimRiker`	`yep. filed.`
`21:33.24`	`*** join/#bzflag BZFlagr11 (n=48e349b0@gateway/web/cgi-irc/bzflagr.net/x-69d61758a4ea8eda)`
`21:33.53`	`Winny`	`JeffM2501: I added it back, Constitution et al likes to use it`
`21:34.23`	`JeffM2501`	`Winny, and why can't he use the one on .bz?`
`21:34.26`	`Constitution`	`furthermore, cgi-irc on my.bzflag.org does not work, and hasn't for a while`
`21:34.37`	`JeffM2501`	`TimRiker, many things, once youv'e been patient enough :)`
`21:34.44`	`JeffM2501`	`it dosn't?`
`21:34.44`	`TimRiker`	`heh.`
`21:35.23`	`Constitution`	`and the one on my.bzflag.org only allows certain channels, iirc`
`21:35.24`	`TimRiker`	`Constitution: which is a Good Thing.`
`21:35.24`	`Winny`	`yeah, I can't make it work`
`21:35.24`	`JeffM2501`	`odd`
`21:35.24`	`Constitution`	`using the bzflagr one allows access to #bzflag, and all the other channels I use at the same time`
`21:35.31`	`JeffM2501`	`that shoudl be fixed`
`21:35.42`	`blast007`	`the one on m.b.o is just slow, iirc`
`21:35.47`	`blast007`	`it has worked for me`
`21:35.51`	`Constitution`	`TimRiker: indeed, but I wouldn't want to have two browser windows open to access #bzflag and other channels at the same time`
`21:35.54`	`whodaman-`	`JeffM2501, there was a post by donny_baker that said it was shut down for security reasons or something`
`21:36.01`	`JeffM2501`	`that was long ago`
`21:36.05`	`JeffM2501`	`shodl be updated`
`21:36.16`	`whodaman-`	`Might as well call it IRC and not Chatroom`
`21:36.32`	`Winny`	`most people don't know what IRC is`
`21:36.38`	`JeffM2501`	`more people get the idea of chatroom`
`21:36.45`	`*** join/#bzflag The_Vaxorcist (n=phillip@dial-209-148-96-49.sonic.net)`
`21:36.46`	`Constitution`	`blast007: you used it recently? I have used it in the past as well, but not recently.`
`21:36.58`	`blast007`	`yeah, recently`
`21:37.05`	`whodaman-`	`JeffM2501, then you have people coming "HAII WHAT'S UP!?"`
`21:37.07`	`JeffM2501`	`but Winny it's your server, so you do what you want :)`
`21:37.14`	`JeffM2501`	`whodaman-, not realy`
`21:37.19`	`blast007`	`I've been having a hard time getting to m.b.o from work today`
`21:37.31`	`blast007`	`seems like DNS, not connectivity`
`21:37.47`	`donny_baker`	`i am trying to use it now, 3 1/2 minutes and it is still initializing`
`21:37.47`	`JeffM2501`	`Winny, if that happens we'd just ban it ;)`
`21:37.48`	`blast007`	`Winny: they're already lots more than just ours`
`21:38.05`	`JeffM2501`	`and yeah, it's not a big change in what people will do`
`21:38.18`	`JeffM2501`	`it's like taking one gun away from a crimial who has 1000`
`21:38.31`	`*** join/#bzflag CIA-23 (n=CIA@208.69.182.149) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`21:38.36`	`JeffM2501`	`yay CIA`
`21:38.56`	`blast007`	`probably`
`21:39.05`	`Winny`	`:/`
`21:39.06`	`JeffM2501`	`thats why they die so fast after a reboot`
`21:39.12`	`JeffM2501`	`1000 rejoin hugs`
`21:39.21`	`Winny`	`doesn'`
`21:39.36`	`Winny`	`t seems like it would take too much to say "CIA-X hugs $who"`
`21:39.49`	`JeffM2501`	`it's all CPU and bandwith`
`21:40.06`	`JeffM2501`	`CIA is in a LOT of places`
`21:40.22`	`JeffM2501`	`so eveyr litle bit of usage sucks up something`
`21:40.30`	`blast007`	`yeah... the m.b.o CGI:IRC doesn't work :/`
`21:40.30`	`*** join/#bzflag blast007_ (n=4b2aea51@bz.bzflag.bz)`
`21:40.37`	`blast007`	`oh sure, I open my mouth`
`21:40.40`	`Winny`	`hehe`
`21:40.46`	`JeffM2501`	`it could probalby be decently optimised if it could be redone to ignore channel messages`
`21:41.01`	`blast007`	`still waiting for the web interface to show anything`
`21:41.03`	`JeffM2501`	`cus just to respond to hugs, it has to read and parse EVERY message to some degree`
`21:41.06`	`blast007`	`the "status" window is blank yet`
`21:41.19`	`donny_baker`	`blast007: how did you do that... i am on my 3rd attempt`
`21:41.31`	`blast007`	`donny_baker: it's still not done..`
`21:41.44`	`blast007`	`I can't do anything yet`
`21:41.49`	`donny_baker`	`yeah, but I'm not even getting the join line`
`21:41.53`	`blast007`	`heh`
`21:42.02`	`blast007`	`I'm on db.bzflag.org (which is the same thing)`
`21:42.10`	`blast007`	`I'm having DNS issues getting to m.b.o`
`21:42.20`	`*** join/#bzflag bz19 (n=0c289623@bz.bzflag.bz)`
`21:42.29`	`donny_baker`	`im on my.bzflag.bz`
`21:42.31`	`blast007`	`hmm, okay, now mine died`
`21:42.32`	`donny_baker`	`there i am`
`21:42.46`	`*** join/#bzflag Winny_ (n=63f0fb6c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/bzflagr.net/x-5aecbc9ef1420dfb)`
`21:42.53`	`Winny_`	`I win blast007 :p`
`21:43.03`	`blast007`	`Winny_: pfft`
`21:43.17`	`blast007`	`for some reason the m.b.o one just sucks`
`21:43.31`	`Winny`	`newest version of CGI:IRC?`
`21:43.35`	`donny_baker`	`yeah, I'm still not fully connected`
`21:44.51`	`*** join/#bzflag blast007_ (n=4b2aea51@bz.bzflag.bz)`
`21:44.51`	`donny_baker`	`mine says "No Channel" up in the upper right and said "transfering data from my.bzflag.bz" in the status bar`
`21:45.09`	`blast007`	`right`
`21:45.11`	`donny_baker`	`then it died... I'm so sad :?`
`21:45.19`	`blast007`	`mine did the same thing`
`21:46.59`	`*** join/#bzflag Winny_ (n=63f0fb6c@bz.bzflag.bz)`
`21:47.40`	`Winny`	`ROFL`
`21:47.50`	`Winny`	`I closed my browser window for that join like 10 min ago`
`21:47.56`	`Winny`	`oh.. that's rich`
`21:47.59`	`donny_baker`	`looks like a time out... the time connected is almost exactly the same for you and I`
`21:48.15`	`*** join/#bzflag blast007_work (n=4b2aea51@bz.bzflag.bz)`
`21:48.43`	`blast007`	`heh, I already closed the window for that one too`
`21:48.45`	`donny_baker`	`so we can officially agree that it's not working: :P`
`21:48.53`	`blast007`	`yeah...`
`21:48.53`	`Winny`	`we're creating clones!`
`21:49.03`	`blast007`	`the world only needs one of me`
`21:49.19`	`Winny`	`...or 1/2 of me`
`21:49.27`	`donny_baker`	`not sure we even need that`
`21:49.29`	`*** join/#bzflag The_Vaxorcist_ (n=d1946031@bz.bzflag.bz)`
`21:49.30`	`whodaman-`	`heh`
`21:49.32`	`Winny`	`:<`
`21:49.56`	`F687s`	`what would we do without you?`
`21:49.59`	`donny_baker`	`wow that was unfortunate`
`21:50.14`	`donny_baker`	`wrong window.. but great humor :)`
`21:50.27`	`whodaman-`	`lol`
`21:50.37`	`Winny`	`donny_baker: what was the wrong window? :p`
`21:51.02`	`donny_baker`	`"not even sure we need that"... was in reference to an LDAP config`
`21:51.07`	`*** join/#bzflag bonny_daker (n=63f0fb6c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/bzflagr.net/x-02f2825b519754aa)`
`21:51.12`	`bonny_daker`	`ick.. wrong channel`
`21:59.17`	`*** join/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-080-060.ewe-ip-backbone.de)`
`22:01.35`	`*** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=wheeeeee@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux)`
`22:02.00`	`JeffM2501`	`why is that people are more willing to buy you books on how to write, then they are books on orbital mechanics?`
`22:02.55`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`maybe they're trying to tell you something? :)`
`22:02.58`	`Winny`	`hehe`
`22:03.19`	`L4m3r`	`ok, this is getting old. NN has now stolen mofo's map`
`22:03.46`	`JeffM2501`	`was it released under any license?`
`22:03.58`	`JeffM2501`	`or on bzbb?`
`22:04.21`	`Winny`	`L4m3r: yeah, he stole mine last week too`
`22:04.32`	`JeffM2501`	`The_Vaxorcist, well I want the books on how to write too :)`
`22:04.35`	`Winny`	`even after I showed him my lisense (which is posted on the MDG)`
`22:04.51`	`JeffM2501`	`so he's violating licenses?`
`22:04.54`	`JeffM2501`	`what did he say to that?`
`22:05.05`	`L4m3r`	`JeffM2501: our live map is never "released", we update it too often`
`22:05.13`	`JeffM2501`	`L4m3r, ok`
`22:05.23`	`L4m3r`	`it's still got "Planet MoFo" plastered all over it`
`22:05.26`	`JeffM2501`	`have you talked to him about it?`
`22:05.28`	`whodaman-`	`And is has all the MoFo on it`
`22:05.29`	`whodaman-`	`yeah L4m3r`
`22:05.38`	`Winny`	`L4m3r: I happen to know the password for that server :) (I think)`
`22:05.44`	`L4m3r`	`I just left a message saying that I hope someone gave him permission`
`22:05.46`	`JeffM2501`	`well that dosn't matter, you've not granted any uses, so he had no real right`
`22:05.50`	`whodaman-`	`Winny, no, I happen to know :P`
`22:06.05`	`JeffM2501`	`but it could be debateable saying that you own that word.`
`22:06.10`	`JeffM2501`	`talk to him`
`22:06.14`	`JeffM2501`	`let me know what he says`
`22:06.20`	`JeffM2501`	`I've discussed him not doing this before`
`22:06.29`	`L4m3r`	`I only mean that he took it right off our server, and removed the billboards, from what I can tell`
`22:06.37`	`Winny`	`he hasn't even spelled it right`
`22:06.40`	`Winny`	`"Mafoo"`
`22:07.12`	`whodaman-`	`how boring`
`22:08.43`	`Winny`	`he says "o i thought all maps wer open source"`
`22:08.57`	`*** join/#bzflag nn-main (n=nn@74.94.43.196)`
`22:09.01`	`nn-main`	`hi`
`22:09.06`	`JeffM2501`	`dude you can't steal maps`
`22:09.17`	`JeffM2501`	`only ones that have been released with a license or permision to use`
`22:09.19`	`nn-main`	`y i think i found that out`
`22:09.21`	`JeffM2501`	`that's not cool`
`22:09.30`	`nn-main`	`sory :(`
`22:09.35`	`JeffM2501`	`that's the entire reason for the license post on bzbb`
`22:09.46`	`JeffM2501`	`only the source code for the GAME is open source.`
`22:09.52`	`JeffM2501`	`that does not mean all uses of it are`
`22:10.05`	`JeffM2501`	`it's the same as stealing the website from CNN`
`22:10.17`	`nn-main`	`so is the mofoo guy here i want to give him the settings!!!`
`22:10.26`	`Winny`	`uh`
`22:10.26`	`blast007`	`mofo*`
`22:10.27`	`*** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543)`
`22:10.38`	`nn-main`	`that made that map a wings war / mafoo war / gm war`
`22:10.42`	`Winny`	`why does he need something from you? thier setup seems to work.`
`22:10.51`	`whodaman-`	`nn-main, it's _MOFO_`
`22:10.58`	`blast007`	`nn-main: it's "mofo", not "mafoo" or "mofoo"`
`22:11.05`	`Think_Differentl`	`mooofooo`
`22:11.07`	`nn-main`	`ok`
`22:11.23`	`Winny`	`so I'd advise you to take down the server`
`22:11.28`	`Winny`	`seeing as it breaks a lisense`
`22:11.41`	`nn-main`	`even with people on it >`
`22:11.43`	`AHA`	`*license`
`22:11.47`	`blast007`	`yes`
`22:11.50`	`nn-main`	`ok`
`22:11.50`	`Winny`	`of course`
`22:11.51`	`blast007`	`even with people on it`
`22:11.55`	`Winny`	`running /shutdownserver isn't hard`
`22:12.06`	`blast007`	`warn them if you want`
`22:13.11`	`L4m3r`	`you should not have run the server in the first place`
`22:13.30`	`L4m3r`	`we've run our FFA for YEARS, literally, and we know what a good setup is. we don't need help.`
`22:13.43`	`Winny`	`nn-main: I'd advise you to look up map liscenses in the future before you run maps`
`22:13.50`	`Winny`	`seeing as you've broken two in about 3 days`
`22:14.20`	`*** join/#bzflag shadowstar (n=48e349b0@gateway/web/cgi-irc/bzflagr.net/x-5961282c0460aa3b)`
`22:14.42`	`CBG`	`~blast007++`
`22:15.13`	`nn-main`	`how do i find the author of a map?`
`22:15.21`	`shadowstar`	`Hi nn-main`
`22:15.24`	`whodaman-`	`You can always search the forums`
`22:15.28`	`JeffM2501`	`if it's not published, ask the server owner`
`22:15.30`	`blast007`	`nn-main: should be the one who released it`
`22:15.30`	`Winny`	`or you know, ask someone`
`22:15.35`	`blast007`	`on the forum`
`22:15.36`	`JeffM2501`	`not all maps are released for others to use`
`22:15.51`	`whodaman-`	`Some, like MoFo have different licenses`
`22:15.55`	`blast007`	`worst case, ask someone here to help you locate the author`
`22:16.05`	`nn-main`	`and what hapens if he dosent respond .... if tryed to talk to iornfoot a trilian times //// no responce`
`22:16.22`	`L4m3r`	`nn-main: then don't use the map`
`22:16.29`	`JeffM2501`	`it's the same as showing the source in a browser ;)`
`22:16.34`	`JeffM2501`	`and you don't complain about THAT`
`22:16.48`	`blast007`	`ironfoot's map? so upgrading that map from cable modem to a faster cable modem?`
`22:16.54`	`JeffM2501`	`nn-main, you don't have any sort of "god given right" to use any map you want.`
`22:17.25`	`JeffM2501`	`do you think you can go and just grab a copy of CNNs home page and host it?`
`22:17.36`	`nn-main`	`JeffM2501, I know :(`
`22:17.37`	`JeffM2501`	`is that right? or legal?`
`22:17.37`	`L4m3r`	`JeffM2501: yes, but when I choose to view source, I get the original markup more or less`
`22:17.39`	`whodaman-`	`And IF you must use /saveworld make SURE you have permission to use it ndim`
`22:17.43`	`whodaman-`	`*err nn-main`
`22:18.01`	`blast007`	`HTML can contain comments, even stuff like a copyright or a license`
`22:18.02`	`L4m3r`	`/saveworld also wrecks the original map structure and obliterates comments. it'd be nice to have the server just send the file.`
`22:18.05`	`Winny`	`NN: how about we put it this way: you spent hours making something, would you want someone to come along and host it without getting permission, or giving credit?`
`22:18.09`	`F687s`	`i think he gets it.`
`22:18.10`	`JeffM2501`	`L4m3r, you get what was sent to the browser, the map is the same thing, it MAY have been a static file, or geenreated by a plug-in ,e tc..`
`22:18.28`	`JeffM2501`	`blast007, yes, HTML is a better stystem then our maps :)`
`22:18.40`	`blast007`	`JeffM2501: I think the main point with the maps is that we CAN'T include comments in what they get`
`22:18.40`	`nn-main`	`sory about the mafoo thing i thought it was ausom what a fiew settings I made could do :( ... They literly made mafo into a gm/wings war`
`22:18.43`	`blast007`	`with HTML, we can`
`22:18.47`	`blast007`	`nn-main: "mofo"`
`22:18.48`	`JeffM2501`	`I'm not saying that we should not enhance it, but I don't think that removing it is an answqer`
`22:18.57`	`Winny`	`nn-main: it's "mofo", not "mafoo"`
`22:18.58`	`JeffM2501`	`blast007, yes, I think we should work on that`
`22:19.04`	`L4m3r`	`no, it's definitely a good thing to have`
`22:19.08`	`JeffM2501`	`but it's not the end all be all solution`
`22:19.10`	`L4m3r`	`I just think it should be moved to the server`
`22:19.19`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah maybe`
`22:19.23`	`JeffM2501`	`tho that wastes bandwtih`
`22:19.28`	`L4m3r`	`plug-in modification would be an issue, though, true`
`22:19.29`	`JeffM2501`	`since the game already has it`
`22:19.30`	`blast007`	`JeffM2501: would it be much more space usage if we just sent the raw map files via a gzip'ed file?`
`22:19.33`	`blast007`	`bandwidth*`
`22:19.41`	`JeffM2501`	`dunno`
`22:19.46`	`CBG`	`what's your mother tongue, nn-main?`
`22:19.51`	`JeffM2501`	`we zip them anyway when we send them to the client`
`22:19.57`	`blast007`	`already have zlib in there (which I think it what does gzip)`
`22:20.07`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, Winny if you want to talk about his pronuciation use a PM`
`22:20.18`	`L4m3r`	`if someone is concerned about B/W they can just shut off the command and provide a URL to download the map file`
`22:20.20`	`whodaman-`	`Not that eager`
`22:20.23`	`F687s`	`(please stop yelling at nn)`
`22:20.23`	`*** part/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@about/essy/fan/CBG)`
`22:20.24`	`L4m3r`	`whoa`
`22:20.27`	`L4m3r`	`wait`
`22:20.29`	`JeffM2501`	`blast007, our current transfer is ziped`
`22:20.30`	`L4m3r`	`I have a brilliant idea`
`22:20.38`	`nn-main`	`well i have got to get incontact with a fiew people`
`22:20.42`	`Winny`	`L4m3r: sharks with lasers!!`
`22:20.43`	`L4m3r`	`add an option to give a URL for the map file`
`22:21.04`	`whodaman-`	`F687s, uh, it's kinda hard to try and tell him something normally, he doesn't read or listen`
`22:21.35`	`JeffM2501`	`L4m3r, it all comes down to, if you want to send the map more then once.`
`22:21.44`	`JeffM2501`	`what I'd like to see is a couple thing`
`22:21.54`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd like to have a real offical "world info" object`
`22:22.00`	`F687s`	`whodaman-: well, one of the things I HATE is when you repeat something over and over, when he gets it the first time.`
`22:22.04`	`JeffM2501`	`that has author, data, licnese, etc.. info`
`22:22.07`	`nn-main`	`who owns vsb = Verry Fast Bullets`
`22:22.10`	`JeffM2501`	`and we display that in the chat when you join`
`22:22.19`	`JeffM2501`	`and save that with the map`
`22:22.35`	`JeffM2501`	`and sure, have a "source URL" in it as well`
`22:22.36`	`blast007`	`that'd be nice :)`
`22:22.42`	`Winny`	`yeah`
`22:22.46`	`JeffM2501`	`think of it like ID3 tags in an MP3`
`22:22.54`	`L4m3r`	`nn-main: ffs, we don't need any more redundant servers. if it's on the list, then leave it alone.`
`22:22.56`	`blast007`	`be nice to have an author email in there too`
`22:23.12`	`L4m3r`	`just make it a text block, perhaps?`
`22:23.13`	`JeffM2501`	`blast007, yeah we can actualy do just a list of named fields with text`
`22:23.20`	`JeffM2501`	`since BZFS won't parse them it'll just store them`
`22:23.28`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`22:23.42`	`L4m3r`	`then, could we just gut /saveworld?`
`22:23.42`	`Winny`	`here's a obsenely complex idea`
`22:23.45`	`JeffM2501`	`newlines in maps are odd, so we'd have to use the field format`
`22:23.51`	`L4m3r`	`replace it with a "map info" option`
`22:24.11`	`Winny`	`actually, that would be really easy to break, never mind.`
`22:24.13`	`JeffM2501`	`and if you wanted to get tricky, we could put a "no save" option in there.`
`22:24.22`	`JeffM2501`	`and have that disable the client save`
`22:24.32`	`L4m3r`	`that'd be really easy to bypass, though.`
`22:24.33`	`JeffM2501`	`not that it would prevent a user from hacking that out`
`22:24.35`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`22:24.42`	`JeffM2501`	`there is NO way to prevent the map data from being saved`
`22:24.46`	`blast007`	`L4m3r: still, people that can bypass that can probably bypass it anyway`
`22:24.47`	`JeffM2501`	`since the client has to have it`
`22:24.49`	`L4m3r`	`what if we had a /saveworld that used the URL in the map info object?`
`22:24.53`	`Constitution`	`it would prevent some users from bypassing it :)`
`22:24.53`	`Winny`	`still, that would be really nice`
`22:25.01`	`JeffM2501`	`L4m3r, it STILL has to go to the clent for rendering`
`22:25.02`	`Winny`	`since 99% of people would have no idea how to get the map`
`22:25.03`	`whodaman-`	`yep`
`22:25.05`	`blast007`	`Constitution: even most users`
`22:25.06`	`Constitution`	`namely, those that don't have the technical know-how to do it`
`22:25.10`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah it'll get around most of em`
`22:25.21`	`L4m3r`	`JeffM2501: of course, but rebuilding a bzw from the client data is not as trivial as bypassing a "no save" flag`
`22:26.03`	`JeffM2501`	`L4m3r, actualy all you hav to do is save the raw data out to a file, and now you have a "cache" file that oyu can use on your server ;)`
`22:26.09`	`JeffM2501`	`so it's realy easy`
`22:26.16`	`L4m3r`	`heh`
`22:26.22`	`JeffM2501`	`we don't need to go thru a bnuch of hoops`
`22:26.22`	`L4m3r`	`well, it's still more difficult :P`
`22:26.44`	`L4m3r`	`using a URL would also allow for differentiating the public version of a map`
`22:26.49`	`JeffM2501`	`IMHO the mapinfo object will get most of what we need`
`22:27.07`	`JeffM2501`	`and we can put a source URL in that block`
`22:27.09`	`L4m3r`	`say, for instance, that mofo wanted to release Passion... the download version could be without all our logos and billboards all over`
`22:27.22`	`L4m3r`	`yeah`
`22:27.23`	`JeffM2501`	`that is somethign for the fourms, not in game`
`22:27.48`	`JeffM2501`	`if oyu wanted to do that, set no save, put a note in the text that its' available on the fourms at the uRL... and that's good enough`
`22:27.55`	`L4m3r`	`I was just speculating that we could rework /saveworld to use that URL in the block, instead of client data`
`22:27.58`	`JeffM2501`	`specialy if we force that message to show every time you log in`
`22:28.11`	`F687s`	`unless the link is a 404, then what?`
`22:28.16`	`JeffM2501`	`too much work for too little benfit`
`22:28.19`	`JeffM2501`	`exactly`
`22:28.23`	`L4m3r`	`then obviously they don't want you to download the map :P`
`22:28.31`	`JeffM2501`	`then they should have set no save`
`22:28.42`	`F687s`	`then would it bypass and save the client file?`
`22:28.52`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`what's this, DRM for bzflag or something?`
`22:28.53`	`Winny`	`hm.. here's an aidea`
`22:28.53`	`L4m3r`	`we could make "no save" equivalent to an empty URL string`
`22:29.02`	`F687s`	`and "no save" bits are easy to bypass also`
`22:29.08`	`whodaman-`	`The_Vaxorcist, certain licenses for maps`
`22:29.12`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd rather have it be explicid`
`22:29.12`	`Winny`	`what if the user wanted to download the full map, they'd need a password (if it was protected)`
`22:29.24`	`JeffM2501`	`the world info would be the most flexable`
`22:29.34`	`L4m3r`	`it's a start`
`22:29.36`	`JeffM2501`	`The_Vaxorcist, just a way to imbed author info into a map`
`22:29.36`	`L4m3r`	`IMO`
`22:29.39`	`F687s`	`that would also (indirectly) mean that you would need a password to spawn.`
`22:29.45`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah, we start with that and see what we need later`
`22:29.46`	`Macrosoft`	`L4m3r: the client needs a copy of the map to play on the server`
`22:29.51`	`JeffM2501`	`we can always add more fields to the info object.`
`22:30.01`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`the no save flag?`
`22:30.01`	`L4m3r`	`that's another idea... tie /saveworld to a perm`
`22:30.02`	`JeffM2501`	`Macrosoft, he knows, read all the lines`
`22:30.08`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`oh well`
`22:30.10`	`JeffM2501`	`The_Vaxorcist, not all maps are redistrobutiable`
`22:30.14`	`JeffM2501`	`by license`
`22:30.29`	`F687s`	`we shouldn't tie down whether you can save a map.`
`22:30.44`	`F687s`	`if somebody hosts it, that means he gives you permission to save and view it.`
`22:30.48`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`exactly`
`22:30.53`	`F687s`	`that does not mean you can redistribute it, though`
`22:31.06`	`L4m3r`	`It may not be in the spirit of FOSS, but WAY too many people have shown that we can't trust the players not to steal maps and commit other asshattery`
`22:31.36`	`L4m3r`	`there's no reason not to share a map if you don't want to`
`22:31.37`	`whodaman-`	`L4m3r, but that would rule out the possibility of /saveworld and then just playing on a local server`
`22:31.56`	`whodaman-`	`to look at the map in greater detail`
`22:32.00`	`blast007`	`whodaman-: for that, just ask the owner for the file`
`22:32.04`	`L4m3r`	`mappers don't have to allow that if they don't want to`
`22:32.06`	`F687s`	`what do we do if they steal a map, though?`
`22:32.07`	`blast007`	`and they could license it for a LAN party`
`22:32.22`	`Winny`	`L4m3r: indeed. I've kept a tally of how many maps people have ripped off of me in the past year, and it's gotten to 6`
`22:32.22`	`blast007`	`F687s: C&D is one option`
`22:32.23`	`whodaman-`	`blast007, yeah, I guess. It's just another way.`
`22:32.31`	`Winny`	`I know DW has had lots of trouble too`
`22:32.54`	`F687s`	`blast007: possibly, and if they don't listen, appeal and kick 'em off the list server?`
`22:33.11`	`whodaman-`	`Its too much of a deal.`
`22:33.20`	`JeffM2501`	`F687s, that is not nesisarly true`
`22:33.33`	`JeffM2501`	`the owner can give you whatever permisions they want to`
`22:33.43`	`JeffM2501`	`such as "only play this map in client"`
`22:33.54`	`JeffM2501`	`or " only look at this map while standing on your head"`
`22:34.00`	`whodaman-`	`heh`
`22:34.02`	`JeffM2501`	`it's all about enforcability`
`22:34.21`	`*** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-080-060.ewe-ip-backbone.de)`
`22:34.30`	`Winny`	`mm, that would prove to be interesting`
`22:34.36`	`F687s`	`yes, but the best maps are the ones that are not strictly enforced`
`22:34.48`	`whodaman-`	`there are positive and negative sides to all ways.`
`22:34.57`	`L4m3r`	`IMO, removing a clientside /saveworld would greatly increase enforceability. that's my stand.`
`22:35.00`	`whodaman-`	`But anything in that direction would be much better than what there is now.`
`22:35.03`	`F687s`	`because people can remix them, improve them, and share them (gosh, I sound like a Linux commercial)`
`22:35.04`	`Winny`	`F687s: so? that's the authour's choice.`
`22:35.12`	`whodaman-`	`L4m3r, so, make it a perm?`
`22:35.16`	`JeffM2501`	`F687s, terms like "Best" are not techicnal things`
`22:35.23`	`JeffM2501`	`it would simply be a feature of the software`
`22:35.30`	`L4m3r`	`F687s: yes, "improve" and then host without permission, as it seems that NN just tried to do`
`22:35.31`	`Winny`	`Missile war has a completly restrictive liscense, F687s.`
`22:35.32`	`JeffM2501`	`it would be up to the server owners to pick how to use it`
`22:35.42`	`JeffM2501`	`we do not dictate HOW people use our software.`
`22:35.47`	`Winny`	`http://bzflagr.net/site/?page_id=5 <-- it's at the bottom`
`22:36.06`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`I think the main point is that we need a world info section`
`22:36.14`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah noone doubts that`
`22:36.20`	`F687s`	`and yes, I've seen most of the MDG's position on licensing`
`22:37.08`	`JeffM2501`	`I think I can come up with a system for the world info that will make most people happy`
`22:37.11`	`F687s`	`my point is that people WILL bypass everything that's been proposed. Unless you wrap the game inside a dumb terminal, it will happen.`
`22:37.24`	`whodaman-`	`F687s, you can limit it`
`22:37.25`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`I'd rather, though, that we not restrict the client`
`22:37.32`	`L4m3r`	`JeffM2501: don't we already have bogus world objects for world weapons and such?`
`22:37.41`	`whodaman-`	`and if most players are stopped by that, it's a huge start F687s`
`22:37.44`	`JeffM2501`	`they arn't bogus`
`22:37.47`	`JeffM2501`	`they are real objects`
`22:37.52`	`JeffM2501`	`they just arn't sent`
`22:37.57`	`JeffM2501`	`cus the client dosnt' care about them`
`22:37.59`	`blast007`	`F687s: right, but still, for the minimal amount of effort to add world info and a nosave bit, having a handful of people bypass them would be fine`
`22:38.19`	`F687s`	`whodaman-: you stop the script kiddies. While they're the 90%, they probably won't do anything too damaging in the process`
`22:38.47`	`whodaman-`	`F687s, that's my point. 90% is a lot.`
`22:38.47`	`*** join/#bzflag spldart (n=vircuser@c-98-197-19-35.hsd1.tx.comcast.net)`
`22:38.57`	`Winny`	`why, welcome to the social spldart!`
`22:39.27`	`blast007`	`Winny: you have a Zune now?`
`22:39.36`	`blast007`	`;)`
`22:39.40`	`Winny`	`hehe`
`22:40.10`	`JeffM2501`	`you can't prevent all mods to a client, the best you can do with your time is work out the probables`
`22:40.21`	`JeffM2501`	`and that's all we have to worry about`
`22:40.36`	`F687s`	`whodaman-: but you also block the innocent people that want to see how something in a map was done, and you still let through the determined crackers that WILL do Bad Things`
`22:40.56`	`JeffM2501`	`if it changes the issue from something that causes a problem once a month, to somethign once a year, that's perfect`
`22:40.59`	`whodaman-`	`F687s, then let the innocent ask the server owner`
`22:41.02`	`L4m3r`	`we generally don't care about the crackers`
`22:41.06`	`whodaman-`	`simple as that`
`22:41.10`	`JeffM2501`	`there will always need to be a person backing it all up`
`22:41.32`	`JeffM2501`	`with a world info message, we'll have the info in there for who users can contact too ;)`
`22:42.00`	`whodaman-`	`yeah.`
`22:42.09`	`F687s`	`and that's the main reason for it`
`22:42.16`	`L4m3r`	`if someone goes to the trouble to bypass the restrictions and rip off the map and host a public server, I think a list ban is warranted`
`22:42.27`	`L4m3r`	`so the crackers are not an issue`
`22:42.42`	`L4m3r`	`this is more about the ass-hats who don't have a clue`
`22:43.10`	`JeffM2501`	`well actualy L4m3r I don't see it like that`
`22:43.26`	`F687s`	`so world info is a good way to add world info. it just won't be the silver bullet that stops map piracy.`
`22:43.33`	`JeffM2501`	`I see it as providing a way for map developers to share more info about the map, and make it easier to share maps`
`22:43.41`	`L4m3r`	`that too`
`22:43.42`	`JeffM2501`	`instead of making it easier to restrict them`
`22:43.45`	`blast007`	`F687s: you can't stop piracy in anything`
`22:43.50`	`JeffM2501`	`it has the advantiage of clarifying things`
`22:43.58`	`JeffM2501`	`but we want to promote sharing of info`
`22:44.17`	`JeffM2501`	`and if we add a feature that allows maps to display info on how they can be shared, all the more awesome.`
`22:44.26`	`blast007`	`F687s: however, the simplicity of a simple "yes or no" switch makes the gain rather large compared to the effort involved`
`22:44.31`	`blast007`	`I'd not take it any further than that`
`22:44.35`	`L4m3r`	`it's a double-edged sword, though, JeffM2501 :)`
`22:44.40`	`JeffM2501`	`all things are ;)`
`22:44.45`	`JeffM2501`	`it will have many uses`
`22:44.48`	`JeffM2501`	`for good and for awesome`
`22:45.06`	`L4m3r`	`it also makes it obvious if a map is stolen, and remove any question about whether or not it was stolen deliberately`
`22:45.08`	`JeffM2501`	`if I set up enough sub options then I think everyone can use it to the best benifit`
`22:45.21`	`JeffM2501`	`and yes, blast007 is right, the end user has to be present with a butt simple choice.`
`22:45.36`	`JeffM2501`	`L4m3r, unless they edit out that part ;)`
`22:45.53`	`L4m3r`	`they can't edit it from the source server :)`
`22:46.04`	`*** join/#bzflag AAA_Awright_ (n=AAA_awri@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net)`
`22:46.10`	`JeffM2501`	`the only way to "steal" a map is to rehost it`
`22:46.21`	`JeffM2501`	`so if you are saying you can see if a map was stolen, you mean it was rehosted`
`22:46.23`	`L4m3r`	`yeah, that's what I meant`
`22:46.34`	`JeffM2501`	`if it was rehosted, then it was put into a fomat that can be editd (BZW)`
`22:46.34`	`L4m3r`	`if someone's map is stolen and they complain, there's no question about the licensing or the intent.`
`22:46.41`	`JeffM2501`	`indeed`
`22:46.48`	`JeffM2501`	`that's why I say it has the advantage of clarifying things`
`22:46.53`	`L4m3r`	`the person who rehosted the server is deliberately violating the license`
`22:46.59`	`JeffM2501`	`and that advantage will help those who don't want to share`
`22:47.06`	`JeffM2501`	`or want to share specific things.`
`22:47.10`	`L4m3r`	`exactly. double-edged sword. :)`
`22:47.22`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd call it a multi-pourpose feature`
`22:47.27`	`JeffM2501`	`it dosnt' "cut" ether side`
`22:47.55`	`JeffM2501`	`the feature can be used to clarify how much of the map can be shared, ranging from none -> all`
`22:48.02`	`JeffM2501`	`you'll just be at the none end.`
`22:48.07`	`JeffM2501`	`others will be at the all end`
`22:48.21`	`JeffM2501`	`there may be people now who want to be at the all end, but have no way to clarify that info`
`22:48.55`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd prefer to think that those all people > the none people ;)`
`22:49.45`	`L4m3r`	`yeah`
`22:50.08`	`L4m3r`	`but then, given the ability, should we also take a more active stance on enforcing licensing?`
`22:50.17`	`JeffM2501`	`that's up to you`
`22:50.26`	`JeffM2501`	`but yes, the feature helps with that`
`22:50.32`	`JeffM2501`	`for everyone`
`22:50.44`	`L4m3r`	`I mean, we could add a clause to the list server about respecting licensing, as you suggested`
`22:50.59`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah,`
`22:51.09`	`JeffM2501`	`but that's for a difrent thing, not tied to the sources`
`22:51.32`	`L4m3r`	`yeah`
`22:52.00`	`L4m3r`	`but we should probably decide if we should delist servers who are violating map licenses (if there are complaints)`
`22:52.24`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`I don't quite see why the dev's should enforce other's licenses`
`22:52.33`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah we can discuss that after we do the feature.`
`22:52.41`	`JeffM2501`	`The_Vaxorcist, we arn't`
`22:53.03`	`L4m3r`	`we aren't sending C&Ds or anything`
`22:53.04`	`JeffM2501`	`what we are saying is, if you don't respect other people's licenses, then we don't want to provide the list server to you`
`22:53.07`	`JeffM2501`	`that's it`
`22:53.27`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`That's fine, I must have misunderstood`
`22:53.29`	`JeffM2501`	`the list server service is NOT open source.`
`22:53.38`	`JeffM2501`	`the software is, but the service is not`
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`22:58.00`	`JeffM2501`	`we have a numbe of policies about who we will and won't provide listing services too`
`22:58.06`	`JeffM2501`	`both client and server`
`22:58.14`	`Macrosoft__`	`ha ha! it works`
`22:58.39`	`JeffM2501`	`now if we forced the info mesage to have an OSS approived license, then I'd say your statement was more on track`
`22:58.58`	`JeffM2501`	`but we'll just be providing a place to put license info, whatever it may be`
`22:59.41`	`JeffM2501`	`The_Vaxorcist, now we do put a restriciton on the licenses for maps that we provide distrobution hosting for on the boards`
`22:59.47`	`JeffM2501`	`those have to be unrestricted use`
`22:59.56`	`JeffM2501`	`cus we like people to share`
`23:00.12`	`JeffM2501`	`and if you don't want to share with others, we don't feel the need to share with you :)`
`23:00.17`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`No, I understand`
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`23:00.50`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`I was just wondering about the idea of the no-save bit`
`23:00.57`	`L4m3r`	`I'd like to have a map wiki at some point`
`23:01.13`	`JeffM2501`	`like wiki pages about specifc maps?`
`23:01.14`	`L4m3r`	`that acts as a repo, and a source of information`
`23:01.23`	`JeffM2501`	`or about the map format?`
`23:01.29`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`that would be cool`
`23:01.35`	`L4m3r`	`open maps can be posted for download, and closed maps can just have info posted`
`23:01.41`	`L4m3r`	`no, pages about maps`
`23:01.47`	`JeffM2501`	`we have some pages about maps`
`23:01.53`	`JeffM2501`	`shoudl be a category about it`
`23:02.24`	`L4m3r`	`you don't think it'd crap up the wiki too much?`
`23:02.51`	`JeffM2501`	`no more then the other stuff we post :)`
`23:02.59`	`L4m3r`	`I suppose mediawiki would work well... easy to track derivatives and related maps, etc`
`23:02.59`	`The_Vaxorcist`	`you mean like the silvercat wiki map, back when silvercat was still up?`
`23:03.15`	`L4m3r`	`no, just a source of information about maps`
`23:03.25`	`JeffM2501`	`we'd just need an attachment mod to let it store the map file.`
`23:03.37`	`L4m3r`	`or we could just host them outside the wiki`
`23:03.48`	`L4m3r`	`that would also prevent people from altering the maps`
`23:04.05`	`JeffM2501`	`if it's a wiki, then no mater where it's hosted people will edit it ;)`
`23:04.30`	`JeffM2501`	`that's the point of a wiki, to have it be edied by it's users`
`23:04.31`	`L4m3r`	`yeah, but we could instead just throw the map on a server and link it`
`23:04.40`	`JeffM2501`	`huh?`
`23:04.40`	`L4m3r`	`instead of hosting it within the wiki itself`
`23:04.49`	`L4m3r`	`maps.bzflag.org`
`23:05.04`	`L4m3r`	`or link to a release thread on bzbb`
`23:05.19`	`JeffM2501`	`I don't treat bzbb as permeant storage`
`23:05.22`	`JeffM2501`	`I do with the wiki`
`23:05.27`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd rather have it IN the wiki`
`23:05.31`	`JeffM2501`	`so it can be updated`
`23:05.34`	`JeffM2501`	`and versioned`
`23:05.39`	`JeffM2501`	`versioning, good :)`
`23:05.52`	`JeffM2501`	`if it was an external system the only thing I would find acceptable would be something like SVN`
`23:06.01`	`JeffM2501`	`then link to the current file`
`23:06.26`	`JeffM2501`	`just hucking them on a server has no history`
`23:06.34`	`JeffM2501`	`some one may want an older verison of a map`
`23:06.47`	`JeffM2501`	`maybe they didn't like the changes an author made`
`23:07.14`	`JeffM2501`	`now you could make an argument for locking it down to only allowing the author to add new versions`
`23:07.18`	`JeffM2501`	`and maybe we can script that in`
`23:07.21`	`JeffM2501`	`but history good.`
`23:07.30`	`L4m3r`	`we could use separate svn repos for that`
`23:07.34`	`JeffM2501`	`indeed`
`23:07.38`	`L4m3r`	`dunno about the performance implications`
`23:07.47`	`JeffM2501`	`the use of them is going to be so minimal`
`23:07.52`	`JeffM2501`	`that it'll be a non issue`
`23:07.57`	`L4m3r`	`true`
`23:08.04`	`JeffM2501`	`we don't have 1000's of maps going in and out every day ;)`
`23:08.05`	`L4m3r`	`say, a separate repo for each author`
`23:08.14`	`JeffM2501`	`that's logisitly a pain`
`23:08.21`	`L4m3r`	`sort of like I'm doing for plugins, not that anyone else is doing it that way`
`23:09.04`	`Constitution`	`there are already some web sites for sharing maps`
`23:09.37`	`L4m3r`	`yup`
`23:09.45`	`Constitution`	`but I guess a new solution would be something worth looking into`
`23:09.50`	`JeffM2501`	`perhaops they should just get an upgrade on features`
`23:09.51`	`L4m3r`	`IMO, none of them have got it quite right, yet ;)`
`23:10.06`	`L4m3r`	`but using an existing mapatorium is definitely an option`
`23:10.17`	`JeffM2501`	`I think what your looking for is a site that stores map histoyr, allows author decemenated info, and has a user section for comments`
`23:10.24`	`JeffM2501`	`and is permenat storeage`
`23:10.34`	`L4m3r`	`user comments aren't entirely necessary`
`23:10.45`	`JeffM2501`	`then there is no point in using a wiki`
`23:11.01`	`L4m3r`	`just straight info`
`23:11.03`	`JeffM2501`	`if you just want a site for uploads and info, a CMS is fine for that`
`23:11.10`	`JeffM2501`	`make each map an article`
`23:11.54`	`JeffM2501`	`the wiki comes into play when you want multi-user in line editing`
`23:12.04`	`JeffM2501`	`you just want some pages and a management interface`
`23:12.42`	`L4m3r`	`yeah`
`23:12.43`	`L4m3r`	`well, that's the thing`
`23:12.43`	`Constitution`	`here are two existing ones: http://www.garrettsites.net/bzmaps/ http://bzmaps.thecompleteweb.net/`
`23:12.47`	`L4m3r`	`there are a LOT of maps whose authors are long gone, and no one knows much about`
`23:12.56`	`JeffM2501`	`then we have no right to rehost them`
`23:12.59`	`L4m3r`	`so some degree of collaborative info-gathering could be useful`
`23:13.01`	`L4m3r`	`RPG's mapatorium is dead. he doesn't maintain it`
`23:13.10`	`JeffM2501`	`if they are unlicensed, we can't modify them`
`23:13.12`	`L4m3r`	`iirc he also released the source`
`23:13.33`	`JeffM2501`	`if they are GPL licensed, then we can include them in the project.`
`23:13.39`	`L4m3r`	`but his script had some serious issue`
`23:13.51`	`L4m3r`	`namely, one could not submit maps on another's behalf`
`23:13.54`	`JeffM2501`	`I think what you want is just a system that can have more then one editor per map`
`23:14.07`	`L4m3r`	`Constitution, do you know who made that second one?`
`23:14.13`	`JeffM2501`	`L4m3r, why would you need to? that would be a violaton of a license ;)`
`23:14.16`	`Constitution`	`L4m3r: me`
`23:14.25`	`Constitution`	`although it's far from finished`
`23:14.33`	`L4m3r`	`JeffM2501: not necessarily`
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`23:14.56`	`L4m3r`	`if it's a GPL licensed map, and you're giving the author credit, I don't see why it's a problem`
`23:15.36`	`JeffM2501`	`then if it's GPL, you can just upload it, or did it not let you put in comments for the real author?`
`23:15.45`	`L4m3r`	`no, it didn't`
`23:15.52`	`JeffM2501`	`then it just needs more fields ;)`
`23:15.56`	`L4m3r`	`yeah`
`23:16.01`	`JeffM2501`	`probalby should assume the uploader is maintainer`
`23:16.03`	`Constitution`	`and then of course there's the maps section on the SF project site`
`23:16.04`	`L4m3r`	`it'd just assume that the uploader was the author :P`
`23:16.12`	`JeffM2501`	`but no mater what, you'd need history`
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`23:16.18`	`JeffM2501`	`and user comments are not a bad thing`
`23:17.27`	`Macrosoft`	`what kind of server daemon does my.bzflag.org use?`
`23:18.04`	`JeffM2501`	`huh?`
`23:18.12`	`JeffM2501`	`server daemon?`
`23:18.15`	`JeffM2501`	`for what service?`
`23:18.23`	`Macrosoft`	`like apache, etc.`
`23:18.23`	`L4m3r`	`it wouldn't be too hard to just host multiple files for different versions of a map`
`23:18.29`	`JeffM2501`	`so for web servering?`
`23:18.39`	`L4m3r`	`httpd?`
`23:18.48`	`JeffM2501`	`a daemon is an applicaton that runs in the background`
`23:18.52`	`JeffM2501`	`they can do many things`
`23:18.58`	`JeffM2501`	`our HTTP server is apache`
`23:19.08`	`JeffM2501`	`but that's not the only deamon on the machine`
`23:19.15`	`JeffM2501`	`there is one for mail, for instance.`
`23:19.17`	`Macrosoft`	`i got the cgiirc thing to work on apache, but i dont know what bzflag.org uses`
`23:19.25`	`JeffM2501`	`we use apache`
`23:19.29`	`JeffM2501`	`for web hosting`
`23:19.49`	`JeffM2501`	`it's probalby not a problem with the CGI, but with the OS`
`23:19.58`	`JeffM2501`	`outgoing socket filters, etc..`
`23:22.48`	`F687s`	`according to your HTTP headers, your web server is some sort of monkey`
`23:23.00`	`*** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone)`
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`23:33.07`	`Constitution`	`what's the URL for the graphs of players and servers over the past several years?`
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`23:33.25`	`*** join/#bzflag whodaman- (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-)`
`23:33.27`	`Constitution`	`provided by TimRiker I believe`
`23:34.31`	`pacman87`	`in the bzfs API, what does it mean when the method parameter is already assigned in bzfsAPI.h?`
`23:34.45`	`pacman87`	`BZF_API bool bz_killPlayer ( int playerID, bool spawnOnBase, int killerID = -1, const char* flagID = NULL );`
`23:35.31`	`JeffM2501`	`it means learn C`
`23:35.41`	`JeffM2501`	`those are the default patmaters`
`23:35.52`	`JeffM2501`	`if you were to call bz_killPlayer(1,false)`
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`23:36.04`	`JeffM2501`	`it woudl be the same as calling bz_killPlayer(1,false,-1,NULL)`
`23:36.12`	`pacman87`	`cool, thanks`
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`23:38.23`	`Constitution`	`nvm, found it`
`23:40.12`	`Constitution`	`http://list.bzflag.org/bzflag.html`
`23:41.06`	`JeffM2501`	`probalby botattack`
`23:41.18`	`F687s`	`the n00bs of the world banded together`
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