| 00:02.39 | JeffM | that'd do it |
| 00:03.55 | f687s | One of the packages (xfonts-something) broke, so whenever you tried to install something else, it would try to install that first, break, and exit |
| 00:04.30 | f687s | When you tried to uninstall it, it would throw an error, and exit. |
| 00:05.12 | JeffM | well for your mac, if your on a busted fink setup then honestly, unless you REALLY know your way around APPLE's lib setup, then it's best to wipe it |
| 00:06.27 | f687s | I "updated" fink, so whenever it tries to install something, it tries to reinstall itself, and the reinstalling of itself throws an error. I don't use it much anyway, however |
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| 00:13.35 | spldart | So... Outta Mac, Windows and Linux which is best about being able to be fixed if it gets bunked up real bad? |
| 00:14.03 | f687s | it depends on the user |
| 00:14.06 | JeffM | depends on your knolwdge of the os |
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| 00:14.39 | JeffM | on windows, I can usualy pull off a repair on a horked system and save the install |
| 00:15.06 | JeffM | usualy the only think that prevents it is disk failure |
| 00:15.22 | JeffM | can't bring data back from the dead |
| 00:15.34 | f687s | make frequent backups |
| 00:15.35 | L4m3r | I usually don't bother |
| 00:15.41 | L4m3r | "Oh, it's hosed? oh well, it's overdue for a format anyway" |
| 00:15.45 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:15.55 | spldart | Ah.. so ceteris paribus user so goes OS repair |
| 00:15.56 | JeffM | backups save data, not installs |
| 00:16.14 | JeffM | by save the install, I mean you don't have to re-install your apps, etc.. |
| 00:16.32 | L4m3r | you could theoretically do image backups to save the install |
| 00:16.37 | JeffM | yeah |
| 00:16.44 | JeffM | but you can do that on any OS ;) |
| 00:16.55 | JeffM | if you don't care about the install, then it's easy on any OS to "fix" it |
| 00:17.24 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 00:18.42 | L4m3r | my mother foobar'd her laptop recently... I was pleased to find it has two HDs in it |
| 00:18.55 | JeffM | 17 inch? |
| 00:18.58 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 00:19.03 | L4m3r | a monster |
| 00:19.05 | JeffM | many do these days |
| 00:19.09 | JeffM | often in a raid |
| 00:19.17 | L4m3r | no raid support, sadly |
| 00:19.40 | L4m3r | map mydocs and any other imporant data to the second drive, and she can hose the system as often as she wants :P |
| 00:19.51 | L4m3r | reinstall without even having to back up |
| 00:20.57 | L4m3r | (aside from FireFox and Thunderbird profiles of course) |
| 00:21.14 | f687s | all the computers in the house are all-in-one, unfortunately |
| 00:22.36 | JeffM | well who's falt is that? ;) |
| 00:32.58 | Winny | heh |
| 00:33.30 | Winny | JeffM: is this useless enough to delete? http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=11875 |
| 00:33.59 | JeffM | it's just as "useless" as all the other posts in that forum |
| 00:34.41 | Winny | I'd say it's more useless |
| 00:34.50 | JeffM | it's all art |
| 00:34.55 | JeffM | none of it has a "use" |
| 00:35.07 | Winny | its gonna turn into a "CAN YOU GUESS HOW I MADE THIS IN 2 WORDS OR LESS" thread |
| 00:35.13 | JeffM | it's over with |
| 00:35.17 | JeffM | if it does, we'll take care of it |
| 00:35.17 | f687s | So, the useless flag doesn't do anything either. |
| 00:35.30 | JeffM | for now it's a picture and a few posts |
| 00:35.49 | JeffM | techincaly any thread can degrade to something bad |
| 00:36.15 | JeffM | if it was in map making, sure |
| 00:36.19 | JeffM | or any other place |
| 00:37.02 | JeffM | but he placed it in the once place it's valid |
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| 01:10.58 | f687s | I like soccer |
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| 01:20.49 | awilcox | -!- f687s has left #bzflag (requested by awilcox: "go to #bzchat to talk about non-BZFlag topics.") |
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| 02:33.53 | CIA-23 | GPLib: 03JeffM2501 * r37 10/trunk/GPLib/ (inc/gpFile.h core/src/gpFile.cpp): flesh out the file system |
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| 03:46.20 | JeffM | yay for virtual file systems :) |
| 03:46.38 | JeffM | can zlib read a regular zip file? |
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| 03:50.50 | DTRemenak | JeffM: see the "minizip" sample included with zlib |
| 03:51.02 | JeffM | so is that a yes? |
| 03:51.15 | DTRemenak | no, but it's not no either :P |
| 03:51.28 | DTRemenak | zlib can do all the necessary decompression, but can't read the filetable alone |
| 03:51.35 | JeffM | ahh |
| 03:51.41 | DTRemenak | minizip will, and it's like 2kb, and under the zlib license |
| 03:51.51 | JeffM | then good enough |
| 03:52.01 | JeffM | I should have said "using zlib can I read regular zip files" :) |
| 03:52.06 | DTRemenak | it also can't read ancient zip files (pkzip 1.x used a different algorithm) |
| 03:52.32 | JeffM | is zip a good format to use? |
| 03:52.34 | DTRemenak | but if you're trying to read 20 year old zip files in a brand new lib you've got issues anyway :P |
| 03:52.42 | JeffM | no, I odn't |
| 03:52.43 | DTRemenak | sure |
| 03:52.43 | JeffM | don't |
| 03:52.46 | JeffM | my users do ;) |
| 03:52.49 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 03:53.09 | DTRemenak | you may find it more advantageous to link to 7zip's library though |
| 03:53.21 | DTRemenak | 'cause then you get a whole fistload of archive formats |
| 03:53.33 | JeffM | how cross plat is it? |
| 03:54.01 | DTRemenak | the lib is cross platform, iirc |
| 03:54.09 | JeffM | cool |
| 03:55.34 | DTRemenak | iirc it's a bit of a pain to build though |
| 03:55.52 | DTRemenak | just the lib might not be bad |
| 03:56.00 | JeffM | if it's not too masive maybe just yank in the sources |
| 03:56.02 | DTRemenak | but trying to build the whole thing gave me headaches |
| 03:56.18 | DTRemenak | yeah, they have a nifty sdk and stuff |
| 03:56.27 | DTRemenak | but that only gets you 7z format iirc |
| 03:56.32 | DTRemenak | don't remember all the details |
| 03:58.56 | JeffM | well I can see |
| 03:59.02 | JeffM | gotta get this to compile first :) |
| 04:00.27 | DTRemenak | if 7zip doesn't work out, infozip is what I'd recommend for zip support. it's bsd licensed and very portable and easy to use |
| 04:06.09 | JeffM | and do you remember how to get the temp dir? |
| 04:06.21 | JeffM | I don't see it as part of SHGetFolderPath |
| 04:06.41 | DTRemenak | http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa364992.aspx |
| 04:06.41 | JeffM | http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb762181.aspx |
| 04:06.46 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 04:06.55 | JeffM | I like that they are real URLS |
| 04:06.59 | DTRemenak | it's kernel, not shell |
| 04:07.04 | JeffM | ahh |
| 04:15.17 | CIA-23 | GPLib: 03JeffM2501 * r38 10/trunk/GPLib/ (inc/gpFile.h core/src/gpFile.cpp): |
| 04:15.17 | CIA-23 | GPLib: add method for temp dir. |
| 04:15.17 | CIA-23 | GPLib: cleanup errors so the read methods compile |
| 04:15.17 | CIA-23 | GPLib: add insert before param to addFileSystemProvider method so the client can set the order. |
| 04:15.17 | CIA-23 | GPLib: use the constant for the name of the default native file system. |
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| 08:04.38 | lepoulpe303 | hi all |
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| 15:31.04 | zee916 | hello |
| 15:31.19 | zee916 | cool |
| 15:31.22 | zee916 | where are you |
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| 16:35.45 | bier__ | hey there... i think i found a bug in the 2.99.0 version: http://cc.helixnetworks.de/~bier/bzfi0002.png |
| 16:36.09 | bier__ | see that flag that's out of the playing area? |
| 16:38.03 | brlcad | bier__: that is odd |
| 16:38.18 | brlcad | is the server running plugins or using default placement? |
| 16:38.37 | brlcad | might be the "give up" code assuming standard map bounds or something |
| 16:43.41 | bier__ | brlcad: i don't know anything about the server, just compiled from svn and connected to one of the servers... |
| 16:43.56 | DTRemenak | bier__: what server is it? |
| 16:44.11 | bier__ | that one with the mini-map, one moment |
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| 16:45.52 | bier__ | bzflag.swordofkahless.com:5157 |
| 16:47.00 | DTRemenak | yeah, it's at Y=176.1, map bounds are at 150. |
| 16:47.04 | DTRemenak | interesting |
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| 16:59.50 | brlcad | either a plugin with a bad drop placement or bug in DefaultSpawnPolicy .. |
| 17:00.55 | DTRemenak | no plugins |
| 17:01.02 | DTRemenak | and flags don't follow spawn policy |
| 17:01.23 | DTRemenak | (see bzfs.cxx:1921 and following) |
| 17:02.46 | brlcad | ahh |
| 17:03.06 | DTRemenak | map doesn't have zones either ( http://bzflag.swordofkahless.com/worlds/minimap.bzw ) |
| 17:03.49 | brlcad | hm hmm.. could almost use the same spawning algo |
| 17:04.42 | brlcad | flags that avoid the edges, that don't drop right in front of players while they're driving, .. |
| 17:04.58 | brlcad | most a change to isImminentlyDangerous |
| 17:05.16 | brlcad | s/change to/overload of/ |
| 17:05.41 | DTRemenak | I'm actually not really sure where the flag positions are coming from. with no zones getFlagSpawnPoint should fail, so it should go to (worldSize - baseSize) * (bzfrand() - 0.5f) |
| 17:05.53 | DTRemenak | but worldSize is 150 and baseSize is unaltered (60) |
| 17:06.09 | DTRemenak | so they should all be within the center 90 unit square |
| 17:06.11 | DTRemenak | and clearly are not |
| 17:06.32 | DTRemenak | hm. dropFlag maybe |
| 17:06.58 | DTRemenak | what happens when a player is kicked for going out of bounds? |
| 17:08.50 | DTRemenak | mm, but no players have gone out of bounds :( |
| 17:09.56 | DTRemenak | and no flag commands except flag show have been run |
| 17:09.58 | brlcad | hm, isValidClearance is used in dropFlag() to determine droppability and it doesn't account for map bounds (neither does dropFlag()) |
| 17:10.42 | DTRemenak | but the player shouldn't be able to get out there to drop it to begin with, right? |
| 17:10.54 | brlcad | one would think with the bzfrand() |
| 17:10.57 | brlcad | positions |
| 17:12.46 | brlcad | but you have something with the OOB check .. if a player went out of bounds and then quit, it'd just do a drop flag |
| 17:13.14 | DTRemenak | yeah. didn't happen in this case though (or didn't get picked up by -ddd) |
| 17:13.31 | brlcad | i mean quit before OOB check kicked in |
| 17:13.37 | DTRemenak | hm |
| 17:13.39 | DTRemenak | interesting |
| 17:13.48 | brlcad | unlikely.. but |
| 17:23.03 | DTRemenak | actually it does look like it's checked in dropflag |
| 17:23.09 | DTRemenak | <PROTECTED> |
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| 17:33.34 | brlcad | heh, there are three dropFlag()'s |
| 17:34.02 | brlcad | I was looking at the dropFlag in DropGeometry, calls dropIt which I don't see checking bounds |
| 17:35.17 | brlcad | hm, though I don't see that line in the other two dropFlag's either.. |
| 17:36.47 | brlcad | ahh, two dropFlag()'s in bzfs |
| 17:38.05 | JeffM | well I know what I'll be doing today :/ XP re-install |
| 17:38.27 | brlcad | resetFlag() calls the one in DropGeometry(), not the one in bzfs |
| 17:38.51 | brlcad | so that could be how it gets out -- through a reset |
| 17:39.37 | brlcad | still odd that only one flag is OOB .. |
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| 19:09.02 | ruskie | I just want to ban aech and every red ............. quitter |
| 19:09.30 | blast007 | hello JeffM |
| 19:09.34 | JeffM | hello |
| 19:09.51 | whodaman- | ruskie, heh, I know what that's like |
| 19:10.19 | ruskie | each and every time the blues get the red flag reds split |
| 19:10.33 | ruskie | only when the reds have 2Ls, a GM, a SW and a G they don't split... |
| 19:10.50 | whodaman- | lol |
| 19:10.59 | JeffM | welcome to flaws in the CTF gamestyle ;) |
| 19:10.59 | whodaman- | where, viper? |
| 19:11.02 | ruskie | yup |
| 19:11.07 | whodaman- | heh |
| 19:11.11 | whodaman- | it's pretty bad there |
| 19:11.24 | ruskie | and then there's the occasional geno base camper |
| 19:11.41 | ruskie | though as soon as I notice such it's insta-/kill |
| 19:11.42 | JeffM__ | wheeeee |
| 19:11.54 | whodaman- | ruskie, how many shots? |
| 19:11.57 | ruskie | 10 |
| 19:12.01 | whodaman- | ouch |
| 19:12.32 | whodaman- | on bloodbath it can get bad, 30 players, 6 geno shot and every shot hits cause the n00bs don't use the radar |
| 19:13.01 | ruskie | then there's the newbs that don't have a clue what geno means... and half of the rest that just ignore any warning or don't even have the chat window open... and then there's the 1-2 players that actually care about the CTF... |
| 19:13.19 | whodaman- | ruskie, just /flag give bouncy :P |
| 19:13.31 | ruskie | only Manu or Pimpi have that power :( |
| 19:13.58 | ruskie | else that would be a fitting punishment for rejoiners... |
| 19:14.19 | ruskie | I better go observe... to stop that lame geno base camper... |
| 19:14.41 | whodaman- | ruskie, just ban for a while? |
| 19:17.06 | ruskie | of course being hunted by half the oposite team isn't exactly fun as well |
| 19:17.11 | ruskie | he left... |
| 19:17.23 | ruskie | guess he wanted to come after me... like ussual |
| 19:18.28 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Erroneous] by ChanServ |
| 19:18.35 | ruskie | yesterday someone split just as I was about to geno him... then rejoined... that earned him a 24h ban... |
| 19:19.00 | ruskie | boss button should be removed from bzflag... |
| 19:21.15 | ruskie | would be seiously fun to see the faces of people when they try to F12 out of the game... |
| 19:21.20 | ruskie | and it doesn't work |
| 19:21.30 | whodaman- | hehe |
| 19:22.02 | ruskie | seriously... |
| 19:22.06 | ruskie | b |
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| 20:09.54 | jftsang | hello / bonjour / buenos dias / ciao / salaam |
| 20:11.28 | eTangenT | mmm |
| 20:11.30 | eTangenT | salami. |
| 20:15.04 | jftsang | no |
| 20:15.30 | scott | heh |
| 20:16.54 | JeffM__ | jftsang, wow, you just have a ton of misconceptions in that brain of yours don't you? |
| 20:17.12 | JeffM__ | what does the unit size of a map have to do with bzfs's stability on an OS? |
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| 20:18.16 | blast007 | "This map is too large for Windows Vista Basic. Please upgrade to Windows Vista Ultimate." |
| 20:18.36 | jftsang | o__O? |
| 20:18.39 | JeffM__ | maybe windows can't do "big" numbers and linux can |
| 20:19.05 | jftsang | to my knowledge, most windows programs dont allow more than 32bits |
| 20:19.11 | JeffM__ | yeah |
| 20:19.15 | JeffM__ | you don't know much |
| 20:19.20 | JeffM__ | so do most linuxes ;) |
| 20:19.33 | JeffM__ | but that has nothing to do with anything |
| 20:19.45 | JeffM__ | the numbers used don't change |
| 20:19.56 | JeffM__ | a float is still a 32bit float, even on a 64 bit build |
| 20:20.00 | JeffM__ | or a mac |
| 20:20.07 | JeffM__ | the map would run fine |
| 20:20.23 | JeffM__ | grahincaly the client would probalby not handle it well |
| 20:20.31 | JeffM__ | as it's not designed for large view distances |
| 20:20.38 | JeffM__ | and that would happen on all OSs |
| 20:21.10 | scott | so... |
| 20:21.21 | scott | we all need to upgrade to ultimate? |
| 20:21.26 | JeffM__ | no |
| 20:21.29 | blast007 | scott: that was a joke :P |
| 20:21.34 | JeffM__ | his statements are jsut false |
| 20:21.36 | JeffM__ | wrong |
| 20:21.36 | scott | :P |
| 20:21.47 | JeffM__ | map size does not affect the server on any OS |
| 20:22.17 | JeffM__ | unless your thinking of it runing out of memory |
| 20:22.31 | JeffM__ | then each OS has a way to deal with that |
| 20:22.36 | JeffM__ | but all will fail at some point |
| 20:23.07 | JeffM__ | bzflag isn't a 64 bit optimised application, so it's generaly limited to using 2 gigs of ram |
| 20:23.29 | JeffM__ | but a box that is 10 units wide takes the same amount of ram on the server as a box that is 10000 units wide. |
| 20:23.52 | jftsang | hmmm |
| 20:24.21 | JeffM__ | flag is not the same thing |
| 20:24.23 | JeffM__ | lag |
| 20:24.30 | JeffM__ | many things can cause lag |
| 20:24.44 | JeffM__ | complex maps ( not LARGE ones ) can cause the client to draw slowly |
| 20:24.48 | JeffM__ | that will add fake lag |
| 20:24.53 | JeffM__ | but that has nothing to do with the server |
| 20:25.04 | jftsang | aah |
| 20:25.41 | JeffM__ | that all goes back to what I said about the client, we arn't setup for drawing large view distances |
| 20:27.35 | JeffM__ | if we wanted to do better we'd make a paging octree or something |
| 20:27.44 | JeffM__ | then we could go and make masive words |
| 20:27.49 | JeffM__ | worlds |
| 20:27.54 | JeffM__ | that and change the sky a little |
| 20:28.06 | *** join/#bzflag jftsang__ (n=jftsangS@88-108-255-162.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 20:29.39 | ruskie | lol |
| 20:29.49 | blast007 | jftsang: my Vista doesn't do that |
| 20:29.53 | JeffM__ | more likely is is your drivers |
| 20:29.55 | blast007 | must be your network DRIVER |
| 20:29.55 | JeffM__ | or something else |
| 20:30.05 | JeffM__ | but hey you seem to lke to blame windows for everything |
| 20:30.07 | JeffM__ | don't use it |
| 20:30.10 | JeffM__ | you have the choice |
| 20:30.27 | blast007 | Vista *is* a good operating system |
| 20:30.35 | jftsang | JeffM__: I would, if my WINDOWS computer would let me burn an .iso with which i can install linux |
| 20:30.39 | blast007 | the drivers and software just have to catch up |
| 20:30.42 | scott | blast007: lies |
| 20:30.53 | blast007 | jftsang: sounds like you don't know how to use your computer |
| 20:30.57 | JeffM__ | jftsang, indeed |
| 20:31.07 | JeffM__ | as there are many ways to install linux with out a cd |
| 20:31.13 | jftsang | thats true |
| 20:31.29 | blast007 | http://cdburnerxp.se/ <-- look, you can burn ISOs! amazing |
| 20:31.31 | JeffM__ | computers are just tools, reflections of there users |
| 20:31.44 | JeffM__ | you get out what you put in |
| 20:31.48 | JeffM__ | so far you've put in hate it seems |
| 20:32.09 | Tupone | so, actually someone re-uploaded bzflag-2.0.10.tar.bz2 on SF with the same name, and now I get bug request. I "asked" to upload with a different name :( . Next time I should wait that all stabilize before doing any distro updating |
| 20:32.42 | JeffM__ | Tupone, it's possible they didn't see your request |
| 20:32.53 | Tupone | yeah, maybe |
| 20:33.15 | Tupone | 1st upload was on 15th Nov, 2nd on 16th |
| 20:33.19 | jftsang | blast007: i would say orly... but that would only cause another flamewar |
| 20:33.28 | *** part/#bzflag jftsang (n=jftsangS@88-108-255-162.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 20:33.40 | Tupone | no problem, I will rechecksum it :9 |
| 20:34.08 | JeffM__ | the new versioning system was touted as being for the next release as well |
| 20:34.27 | JeffM__ | so it could be understanable that somone did not know what to change it to |
| 20:34.45 | Tupone | well, the new versioning system. I'm not sure I like it |
| 20:35.03 | JeffM__ | it fits your needs does it not? |
| 20:35.14 | JeffM__ | another number to name things |
| 20:35.20 | JeffM__ | for cases such as this |
| 20:35.35 | Tupone | maybe to better fit the needs, I'd add another number, not cut the first |
| 20:35.43 | JeffM__ | we didn't use the first |
| 20:35.57 | JeffM__ | I don't think there was any system that could make every single peroson happy |
| 20:35.59 | Tupone | we switched from 1.10 to 2.0 if you remember |
| 20:36.02 | JeffM__ | fair compromise |
| 20:36.05 | JeffM__ | yes we did |
| 20:36.16 | JeffM__ | so now we'll go from 2.0 to 3.0 |
| 20:36.25 | JeffM__ | so it's just continuing that trend |
| 20:36.25 | Tupone | so we use it as an information of a big change |
| 20:36.40 | JeffM__ | yeah it will be the incompatable neess, that's a big change |
| 20:37.05 | JeffM__ | all other big changes ( Like meshes ) will come with a proto change, so it fits fine |
| 20:37.19 | Tupone | this game will be always incompatible with the previous one. Always was, and always will be |
| 20:37.35 | Tupone | except maintainance |
| 20:38.47 | JeffM__ | then it makes sense to use the major for that :) |
| 20:39.15 | JeffM__ | what would it hate taken for you to go to 3.0 in your mind? |
| 20:39.21 | JeffM__ | have ! hate |
| 20:40.07 | Tupone | Major changes, visible to user |
| 20:40.26 | JeffM__ | like? |
| 20:40.54 | Tupone | maybe the next is/could be 3.0 Just don't like the logic that you wrote for versioning: First number is incompatible version |
| 20:41.06 | Tupone | that I don't like |
| 20:41.28 | *** join/#bzflag whodaman- (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-) |
| 20:42.15 | Tupone | well, now some mirrors have old version of bzflag, and sf have the new one :( don't know how to fix it . I have to ask |
| 20:43.33 | JeffM__ | the rest of us liked it |
| 20:43.51 | JeffM__ | but if you can come up with other sugestions run em by brlcad,he wrote it up |
| 20:43.59 | Tupone | who is the rest? |
| 20:44.07 | JeffM__ | IIRC SF should sync the rest |
| 20:44.19 | JeffM__ | IIRC, DTRemenak , Constitution , and I forgot the others |
| 20:44.28 | JeffM__ | he took the lead on it |
| 20:44.42 | Tupone | who took it? |
| 20:44.45 | JeffM__ | brlcad |
| 20:44.51 | Tupone | ahh, great |
| 20:44.56 | JeffM__ | that is why he wrote it up |
| 20:45.18 | JeffM__ | I told him your needs, as well as my needs ( why I did the s and b and rc stuff ) |
| 20:45.35 | JeffM__ | and that I liked the concept of major as proto, he did as well |
| 20:45.46 | Tupone | I told that, because I saw the future |
| 20:45.53 | Tupone | and could not stop it |
| 20:45.54 | Tupone | :( |
| 20:46.18 | JeffM__ | I don't see that i t's a horible choice |
| 20:47.04 | Tupone | the problem is that there is no sign of big changes, is just a number like the SVN one? |
| 20:47.14 | Tupone | no indication to anyone |
| 20:47.28 | Erroneous | define big? |
| 20:47.49 | Tupone | a change in protocol just for a bug is not a big change |
| 20:47.58 | Erroneous | we never change the protocol just for a bug |
| 20:48.10 | Tupone | you will never, or you never did? |
| 20:48.15 | Erroneous | both |
| 20:48.31 | Erroneous | protocol is always frozen on branches |
| 20:48.33 | Tupone | hehe, you too can see the future clearly . Great |
| 20:48.51 | Erroneous | if we found a major problem in the protocol now, we'd just ship 3 earlier, not patch 2. |
| 20:49.23 | Tupone | if you want to update the protocol just to get ris of a cheat client in the interweb? |
| 20:49.27 | Tupone | rid |
| 20:49.32 | Erroneous | the idea is to "batch" as many protocol changes as possible. that's how our development has always worked. |
| 20:49.55 | Erroneous | it's very expensive to change protocol; it breaks the userbase up and gives porters a really hard time |
| 20:50.00 | JeffM__ | we've never done that |
| 20:50.00 | JeffM__ | ever |
| 20:50.11 | JeffM__ | if we decide to do that then we re-evaluate our choice |
| 20:50.28 | JeffM__ | there is no possible way to plan or build a system that emcompases all possibilieies |
| 20:50.33 | JeffM__ | all you can do is look at past trends |
| 20:50.54 | JeffM__ | honeslty, do you see bzflag development changing in some massive way? |
| 20:50.57 | Tupone | If you change the naming schema in a way that is incompatible with the previous, I have problem to know what is newer and what is older |
| 20:51.46 | JeffM__ | the old numbers ift |
| 20:51.47 | Tupone | so better staying with a schema, and the previous worked, except this upload :( |
| 20:51.54 | JeffM__ | 2.0.x is OLDER then 2.0 |
| 20:51.56 | JeffM__ | 3.0 |
| 20:54.46 | Tupone | my comment was about the sentence: "if we decide to do that then we re-evaluate our choice" |
| 20:54.51 | Erroneous | "worked except" means "didn't work", no? :) |
| 20:57.14 | Tupone | well, they wanted to ship 2.0.10. It could have been called 2.0.12 |
| 20:57.39 | Tupone | just a question of advertisment |
| 20:59.14 | *** join/#bzflag F687 (n=noah@cpe-71-67-112-44.woh.res.rr.com) |
| 20:59.43 | JeffM__ | same statment works for using the major number ;) |
| 21:00.02 | JeffM__ | but I'll stay out of this for fear of saying inapropriate things and making people mad.... |
| 21:02.32 | *** part/#bzflag F687 (n=noah@cpe-71-67-112-44.woh.res.rr.com) |
| 21:03.18 | *** join/#bzflag F687s (n=noah@cpe-71-67-112-44.woh.res.rr.com) |
| 21:03.19 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm) |
| 21:06.35 | Erroneous | I really don't care how we do version numbers as long as they are numeric, and go up, and never go down :) |
| 21:07.24 | JeffM | and have enough space to handle the needs we've experienced so far |
| 21:07.29 | JeffM | aka, beta, RC, etc.. |
| 21:07.39 | JeffM | beta, RC, and package update. |
| 21:08.03 | Erroneous | "space" is irrelevant; there's no limit to the numbers. for all I care we can do branch.revision and leave it at that. |
| 21:08.10 | JeffM | personly I see the concept of holding the first number in some arbitary regard is pointless |
| 21:08.15 | Tupone | so just a number is ok. it seems the only things you want to say to user is "this is newer then that" |
| 21:08.23 | JeffM | saying "this is the bzflag 3 "proto sounds good to me |
| 21:08.42 | JeffM | numbers always make sense to everyone |
| 21:08.49 | JeffM | letter are up to interpertation |
| 21:08.56 | JeffM | math works in any language :) |
| 21:09.00 | JeffM | hooray for math |
| 21:09.19 | Erroneous | math++? :) |
| 21:10.09 | Tupone | so ... why we moved from the 1.7g2 schema? |
| 21:10.21 | JeffM | cus letters don't make sense |
| 21:10.31 | JeffM | all numbers == good |
| 21:10.32 | Tupone | ahh, math is made with letters too |
| 21:10.41 | JeffM | it's not as intuitive in my book |
| 21:10.48 | JeffM | x.y.z |
| 21:10.55 | JeffM | that's prety standard these days |
| 21:11.16 | JeffM | there also was not enough "room" in that method |
| 21:11.42 | JeffM | just lke not enough room in the method for 2.0.x |
| 21:12.11 | *** join/#bzflag BenUrban (n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban) |
| 21:12.34 | JeffM | I had the same problem in 2.0.9 that you just had with .10, there is no defined way to add another identifying thingy when you need to update it |
| 21:12.37 | Tupone | and adding a new number or a letter, just for the tar name, it is a mortal sin |
| 21:12.37 | brlcad | Tupone: I hear ya, but the issue came down to letting the revision really represent feature compatibility only leaving "importance" to the news announcements and other statements made during release that are more effective at conveying whatever (arbitrary) level of significance we want |
| 21:12.53 | JeffM | Tupone, no, but it's not part of our defined system |
| 21:12.58 | JeffM | whatever we do it has to be consistent. |
| 21:13.04 | JeffM | for ALL packages |
| 21:13.07 | brlcad | the numbers become deterministic and very straight-forward -- we're just as likely to have a "very important" patch release as a major number release |
| 21:13.09 | JeffM | so they can be compared. |
| 21:13.30 | JeffM | yay he can talk about it now, and I can go back to installing |
| 21:13.45 | brlcad | keeping it numeric, we could have also gone to quadlets instead of triplets, but that still leaves the major number being non-deterministic |
| 21:14.15 | Tupone | I want it non deterministic. |
| 21:14.19 | brlcad | so the suggestion (and it is (still) just a suggestion/proposal) was to drop the major and shift everything over |
| 21:14.37 | ruskie | hey ibot ppl in #gnu are discussing about you :) |
| 21:14.46 | brlcad | but for what purpose? .. non-deterministic means it's arbitrary |
| 21:15.00 | brlcad | we could just as easily name releases after animals and fruits |
| 21:15.08 | JeffM | Tupone, you said you didn't like arbitary numbers, aka the svn revision. |
| 21:15.12 | Tupone | I want to convey big changes. When you will look at the history of bzflag, you will not know from the tarname what are the big change |
| 21:16.15 | brlcad | Tupone: that can be conveyed much more effectively in the NEWS file -- as an outsider that has no idea what our numbering system means, they're all just releases that work or don't work |
| 21:17.34 | brlcad | and it's still arbitrary, like when we had a major bug fix early on in 1.10 that went out -- maybe it was .4 or .6 -- that most server ops wanted to require because it was so important -- there's no good convention that will really capture that other than just saying it |
| 21:18.10 | Tupone | well, the problem I raised before doing this change, is not the revision. Just the tar name. And you come with that change. Why? |
| 21:18.28 | Tupone | Maybe it was in the air :/ |
| 21:21.28 | Tupone | You always have to face with wrong upload. No version number will fix it. You advertise a 3.7.12 upload a file, and then you understand you made a big mistake, or a little one. You should have to retract the old uploaded file and upload a new one, with a different file name. If you change the version you have to re-ad |
| 21:21.41 | brlcad | true, someone could just as make the same file name upload mistake again |
| 21:22.10 | Tupone | but then you upload with a new name and retire the old |
| 21:22.30 | brlcad | the part of the change was by letting the patch number actually actually represent iterations, it should iterate much more frequently (or rarely ever change off zero) |
| 21:22.53 | brlcad | what we have now is a patch number that sometime introduces relatively massive number of changes |
| 21:23.20 | brlcad | so if someone makes a simple tarball mistake, it seems wrong to increment the number |
| 21:23.43 | Tupone | version number ? it should not change it |
| 21:23.48 | brlcad | if the number really is just a counter on the minor, then it can increment without hesitation (even be automated) |
| 21:24.24 | brlcad | it is a new "version" no matter what it's named |
| 21:24.46 | *** join/#bzflag Macrosoft (n=Macrosof@c-75-65-81-245.hsd1.la.comcast.net) |
| 21:24.55 | brlcad | to capture that in the name, you're adding some label, whether it's a -2 or a .2 or a .1 or a -oops |
| 21:25.46 | Tupone | the number should not change. If you say in a month you will release 2.3.2, you should do that (normally) not 2.3.2.23 |
| 21:26.10 | brlcad | since we have/had a triplet convention, according to our release rules, if a new version is going up then it would have incremented the patch |
| 21:27.17 | Tupone | even a "no-source change" can generate a different tar. You cannot name that "release" |
| 21:27.34 | brlcad | so in this case, the situation was 2.0.10 went up -- we at least previously didn't have a means to capture consistently what happens when that upload is wrong |
| 21:28.20 | Tupone | and coul have just changed the name of the tar to 2.0.10p1.tar.bz2 or 2.0.10.1.tar.bz2 |
| 21:28.34 | brlcad | with our previous convention, the next upload *should* have been 2.0.12 per what we'd previously done except that would be absurd so they over-wrote -- if I understand you correctly, you're basically suggesting a quadlet to capture that |
| 21:28.47 | brlcad | yeah, that'd be a quadlet |
| 21:29.07 | Tupone | no release change, only tar name |
| 21:29.19 | brlcad | well that's your semantics |
| 21:29.21 | brlcad | that's a release change to me |
| 21:29.28 | brlcad | it's a different file |
| 21:29.37 | brlcad | as simple as that |
| 21:29.58 | JeffM | it's a new thing people should download |
| 21:30.08 | Tupone | same behaviour. SOmetime you did just to upgrade the installer. Or have a libtool upgraded |
| 21:30.10 | brlcad | so the new version is being captured by that sub-patch number |
| 21:30.12 | JeffM | new > older |
| 21:30.16 | Tupone | just after release |
| 21:32.00 | brlcad | Tupone: I'm entirely agreeing with having that new digit added, we didn't have a (written) convention for capturing that new upload and both the new triplet and a quadlet capture fulfill that need |
| 21:32.15 | brlcad | so agreeing with that, the decision just came down to "why have a quadlet" when that major number is arbitrary |
| 21:32.57 | brlcad | do a left-shift and stay with triplet, conveniently even coincides with what we've done since 1.10 |
| 21:33.36 | Tupone | so you don't want to convey anymore information, that is just "incompatible version" I would like to have freedom to do that |
| 21:33.53 | brlcad | so it sounds like that's really the disagreement, whether to change/drop that top-level major version |
| 21:34.33 | *** join/#bzflag Severielle (i=439e755b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-297b4373093adf0d) |
| 21:34.33 | Tupone | And not that I don't agree that next version(if ever) is 3.0. Just for me 3.0 is a big change |
| 21:34.39 | *** part/#bzflag Severielle (i=439e755b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-297b4373093adf0d) |
| 21:35.15 | brlcad | actually yes, I think compatibility is more than enough to the user community -- when we do a 3.0 or a 2.2 or whatever we call it, it's pretty drastically different with the protocol breakage |
| 21:35.38 | Tupone | for people that play online yes. I agree |
| 21:35.39 | brlcad | what's "important" to one dev isn't necessarily important to everyone else, or even visible to end-users |
| 21:35.58 | JeffM | people play bzflag offline? |
| 21:36.22 | JeffM | "BZFlag is a free online multiplayer cross-platform open source 3D tank battle game" |
| 21:36.26 | awilcox | JeffM: the only way I see that happening is self-hosting on a LAN |
| 21:36.32 | brlcad | I think what's currently on head is a pretty big set of changes, every protocol-breaking release has been a "major" set of changes imho |
| 21:36.37 | JeffM | online is in the first sentance. |
| 21:36.50 | L4m3r | JeffM: great for LAN games on craptastic school computers ;) |
| 21:36.56 | brlcad | some visible to users, others not so visible, usually boiling down to an extensive set of changes and a good write-up during release time |
| 21:37.02 | Tupone | JeffM: offline from internet :) |
| 21:37.09 | brlcad | :) |
| 21:37.17 | JeffM | L4m3r, then compataiblkity is still important even on a lan, as you can't play with incompatabile versions |
| 21:37.30 | awilcox | 2.2 is gonna be 3.0? |
| 21:37.42 | L4m3r | welcome to last week, awilcox :P |
| 21:37.43 | JeffM | that is the current plan/argument awilcox |
| 21:37.54 | awilcox | L4m3r: my backlog only goes back 24 hours :P |
| 21:37.59 | awilcox | JeffM: ah great |
| 21:38.14 | awilcox | considering how drastically 2.2 has changed from 2.0, it _should_ be 3.0, imho |
| 21:38.31 | awilcox | even the stupid list server format changed. |
| 21:38.51 | JeffM | the current idea as it's writen up is to use the major version as the protocoll number |
| 21:39.00 | JeffM | so 3.0 is incomaptable with 2.0, and 4.0 |
| 21:39.08 | brlcad | Tupone: here's an example case.. say we change *nothing* except someone rips out the entire graphics layer and replaces it with crystalspace -- we even retain protocol compatibility -- that's a pretty major change even though it could be done such that there'd even be absolutely no change to the user |
| 21:39.19 | JeffM | then instead of doing like 2.0.2, and 2.0.4, do 3.2.0, 3.4.0 ,etc.. |
| 21:39.22 | Tupone | you see. People use the first number to see if there are big differences |
| 21:39.34 | awilcox | JeffM: Makes sense to me. |
| 21:39.46 | JeffM | makes sense to me too |
| 21:39.48 | brlcad | the fact that picking up an engine is an *important* update for some wouldn't be captured no matter what we number it is numbered, it'd be in the release notes |
| 21:39.50 | awilcox | Tupone: I would like to ask you something if you don't mind. Are you a developer? |
| 21:39.52 | Tupone | considering how drastically 2.2 has changed from 2.0, it _should_ be 3.0 |
| 21:39.58 | JeffM | I got many questions about 2.1.0 being not compatable |
| 21:40.05 | JeffM | cus most people came in at 1.10 |
| 21:40.07 | brlcad | awilcox: yes, a core dev |
| 21:40.12 | awilcox | ahh, okay. |
| 21:40.13 | JeffM | then saw 2.0 that was incompatable |
| 21:40.22 | brlcad | awilcox: see the AUTHORS list :) |
| 21:40.27 | JeffM | now they expect the next incompatable vesion to be 3.0 |
| 21:40.37 | JeffM | since all they ahve seen is 1 -> 2 -> 3 |
| 21:40.45 | brlcad | Tupone: I agree (re 3.0) |
| 21:40.54 | awilcox | brlcad: hehe, I'm actually trying to svn co HEAD right now ;) |
| 21:41.06 | awilcox | brlcad: >_< I said that first and Tupone copied it verbatum |
| 21:41.10 | awilcox | *verbatim |
| 21:41.11 | Tupone | well, I agree too, but that only because there is that word (drastically) |
| 21:41.13 | brlcad | and at our major release rate, I think just about every protocol breaker is going to warrant incrementing the major number .. :) |
| 21:41.17 | awilcox | 16:35 < awilcox> considering how drastically 2.2 has changed from 2.0, it _should_ be 3.0, imho |
| 21:41.53 | JeffM | I'm amazed at the lenthts we have gone thru to add features with out breaking proto. |
| 21:41.58 | Tupone | awilcox: sorry, I forget to cite you. I tought it was clear from the context |
| 21:41.59 | brlcad | awilcox: I can read, thanks .. :) |
| 21:42.16 | awilcox | Tupone: it's alright. |
| 21:42.18 | awilcox | brlcad: :) |
| 21:42.49 | Tupone | I was backing up my discussion using your words, as a user |
| 21:42.53 | brlcad | I was saying that I agree with the general statement that it's a major release featurewise :) |
| 21:43.22 | brlcad | I think every protocol breaker will be major like that, packing as much in as we can |
| 21:43.24 | JeffM | awilcox, tupone is the #4 all time commiter |
| 21:43.32 | awilcox | JeffM: wows. |
| 21:43.36 | Tupone | I can agree on that. Just don't put that in stone |
| 21:43.59 | JeffM | awilcox, http://www.ohloh.net/projects/189/analyses/latest/contributors |
| 21:44.16 | JeffM | awilcox, it's no further ahead then it was before |
| 21:44.26 | JeffM | all tha thappend was it's name changed |
| 21:44.30 | brlcad | awilcox: but feel free to test |
| 21:44.32 | awilcox | JeffM: aww, I was hoping it was a little further :P |
| 21:44.36 | JeffM | nope |
| 21:44.37 | awilcox | brlcad: okay :D |
| 21:44.56 | brlcad | good luck with that ;) |
| 21:45.05 | awilcox | hehe :) |
| 21:45.09 | brlcad | it'll still probably crash-on-exit |
| 21:45.22 | brlcad | font manager cleanup problem still in there afaik |
| 21:45.42 | awilcox | TimRiker seems the only one on longer than JeffM :P |
| 21:45.59 | JeffM | techincaly that is not true |
| 21:46.08 | JeffM | I was on before CVS kept stats |
| 21:46.15 | awilcox | brlcad: I had gentoo, and there was some xorg breakage |
| 21:46.27 | awilcox | everytime I typed "bzflag\n" on the console, X crashed |
| 21:46.37 | awilcox | so I hope that doesn't happen with this one :P |
| 21:46.50 | awilcox | JeffM: wow :) |
| 21:46.55 | Tupone | had ? why? |
| 21:47.35 | brlcad | Tupone: it's not being put in stone, it's being put into the release announcements :) |
| 21:47.55 | awilcox | Tupone: I had gentoo because I wanted to compile all my software. unfortunately this laptop doesn't exactly love compiling. I'm on Debian now. |
| 21:48.10 | Tupone | ahh, I'm a gentoo developer :( |
| 21:48.29 | JeffM | brlcad, do the ohloh stats cound the put the candle back part? |
| 21:48.33 | JeffM | count even |
| 21:48.44 | JeffM | sudo make me a sammich |
| 21:48.46 | brlcad | yes and no |
| 21:48.50 | awilcox | Tupone: ahh. well gentoo was quite nice, and a lovely experience, but this Celeron/1600 couldn't do it. and it wouldn't use DMA on my hard disk either |
| 21:48.54 | brlcad | it counts it, but only as 1 commimt |
| 21:48.55 | awilcox | JeffM: hehe |
| 21:49.07 | JeffM | ok, then it dosnt' skew me that bad |
| 21:49.11 | brlcad | they combine all commits with the same commit message within a time window |
| 21:49.29 | awilcox | candle? |
| 21:49.30 | Tupone | DMA? is not gentoo, is the kernel that use it. Bah |
| 21:49.54 | awilcox | Tupone: hmm. well anyway, I didn't have the three days to wait for gtk, qt, and kde to compile :P |
| 21:50.08 | awilcox | Tupone: I plan to run on gentoo on my new box, don't worry :) |
| 21:50.15 | brlcad | JeffM: I believe they actually read the diff itself too and account for whitespace changes as being nil |
| 21:50.19 | awilcox | hopefully distcc will like a Core 2 Duo. |
| 21:50.22 | Tupone | well, that is ok. I use 2/3 machine to compile it faster |
| 21:50.45 | awilcox | =/ |
| 21:51.03 | awilcox | Is there a --verbose option for autogen.sh? I hate sitting at a "Doing stuff..." prompt. |
| 21:51.20 | JeffM | brlcad, ok, I just wondered if I was skewed to the top cus of that fiasco |
| 21:52.26 | awilcox | 2.99.00!? |
| 21:52.32 | JeffM | yes |
| 21:52.39 | JeffM | 2.99 < 3.0 |
| 21:53.02 | L4m3r | 2.1 -> 2.99; 2.2 ->3.0 |
| 21:53.12 | awilcox | ahh, I see. |
| 21:53.23 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=wheeeeee@24-159-201-122.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 21:54.26 | brlcad | JeffM: http://www.ohloh.net/projects/189/contributors/4157/commits?sort=time_reverse&page=28 |
| 21:54.29 | awilcox | 1) it is trying to find fortan O_O 2) It says SDL isn't found, do I need it? 3) I don't want bzrobots, what is the format for disable/enable features? 4) It says gl/glx.h isn't there, what package might that be in? |
| 21:55.05 | brlcad | it did scew you Code line count by about 200k it seems |
| 21:55.13 | brlcad | 100k removed, 100k added |
| 21:55.36 | brlcad | undoubtedly the brace lines |
| 21:56.13 | L4m3r | skew or screw? :P |
| 21:56.21 | L4m3r | same difference I suppose |
| 21:56.22 | brlcad | heh, skew |
| 21:56.23 | JeffM | awilcox, 1) who cares, 2) yes, 3) who cares, 4) your probably missing the C++ compiler |
| 21:56.31 | awilcox | hmm, says it will build bzfs and bzadmin, but no client. |
| 21:56.47 | JeffM | what are you on an ubuntu? |
| 21:57.22 | Constitution | awilcox: 3) --disable-bzrobots |
| 21:57.39 | brlcad | there's no reason to disable them any more |
| 21:57.52 | JeffM | brlcad, so is your 260k lines correct? cus if so DAMN you got more then anyone else |
| 21:58.15 | awilcox | JeffM: no, I'm on a fresh Debian Etch. |
| 21:58.27 | Tupone | awilcox: maybe sdl-dev |
| 21:58.30 | Tupone | I can check |
| 21:58.37 | brlcad | JeffM: I believe it actually is, but can't say without seeing a line graph to see if/where there are any spikes |
| 21:58.43 | JeffM | awilcox, then you probalby need the c++ compiler |
| 21:58.56 | awilcox | JeffM: I'm grabbing it. |
| 21:59.12 | Tupone | libsdl-dev, you need it |
| 21:59.16 | JeffM | that's why you are getting the GL |
| 21:59.19 | JeffM | and yeah SDL |
| 21:59.24 | brlcad | JeffM: you're at about 280k lines without the candle |
| 21:59.25 | JeffM | SDL good |
| 21:59.28 | L4m3r | build-essential will take care of the compiler chain |
| 21:59.40 | awilcox | L4m3r: yeah, am pulling that down :) |
| 21:59.43 | awilcox | Tupone: Thank you. |
| 21:59.47 | JeffM | brlcad, the site says I am 262,361 |
| 21:59.48 | L4m3r | metapackages ftw |
| 21:59.56 | JeffM | so that would be WITH the candle right? |
| 22:00.05 | brlcad | JeffM: you looking at the right project? |
| 22:00.07 | awilcox | Note, selecting libsdl1.2-dev instead of libsdl-dev |
| 22:00.09 | brlcad | http://www.ohloh.net/accounts/9533/positions/6626 |
| 22:00.11 | JeffM | http://www.ohloh.net/projects/189/analyses/latest/contributors?page=1 |
| 22:00.14 | brlcad | 484k |
| 22:00.18 | awilcox | ^ erm, is 1.2 okay? |
| 22:00.38 | Tupone | only the 1.2 is out |
| 22:00.55 | JeffM | odd that those 2 pages are direrent then |
| 22:01.06 | brlcad | oh, I *thinkt* that's existing lines that are actually modified |
| 22:01.07 | JeffM | or the one I'm looking at has no candle |
| 22:01.09 | Tupone | The missing other minor number is not important :) |
| 22:01.14 | JeffM | ahh |
| 22:01.48 | Constitution | so brlcad spends the most time fixing other people's work? ;) |
| 22:01.49 | awilcox | grr, I didn't have libgl1-mesa-dev either. oh well, I do now |
| 22:01.58 | JeffM | probably mine |
| 22:02.08 | JeffM | awilcox, you on ati? |
| 22:02.36 | awilcox | JeffM: Yes. I already know I'm full of fail. |
| 22:02.54 | brlcad | Constitution: I like to call it "Code Gardening" |
| 22:02.56 | JeffM | no, I just wanted to tell you if you were on nvida then that is the wrong package |
| 22:03.04 | JeffM | but for ATI it is |
| 22:03.06 | Tupone | the libsld-1.3 is not yet out in a stable form, so is not on any distro |
| 22:03.07 | awilcox | Ahh. |
| 22:03.18 | awilcox | Tupone: libsdl-ttf-2.0 was available |
| 22:03.20 | JeffM | 1.3 hasn't changed in a long time |
| 22:03.26 | Tupone | ttf forget it |
| 22:03.42 | awilcox | ./configure cached that I don't have SDL. |
| 22:03.48 | awilcox | do I have to run ./autogen again? |
| 22:04.00 | Tupone | do you have sdl-config ? |
| 22:04.35 | awilcox | checking for sdl-config... (cached) no |
| 22:04.47 | JeffM | heh acording to brlcad's page I comment the crap outa my HTML pages :) |
| 22:04.51 | awilcox | however |
| 22:04.53 | awilcox | $ sdl-config --version |
| 22:04.53 | awilcox | 1.2.11 |
| 22:06.19 | awilcox | however, it seems to want to let me build bzflag client. |
| 22:06.47 | awilcox | *anyway |
| 22:06.49 | brlcad | JeffM: 12%? |
| 22:07.01 | L4m3r | you can build a client sans SDL |
| 22:07.39 | brlcad | cached result is NFG, delete your autom4te cache directory |
| 22:07.58 | JeffM | way more then I comment C++ :) |
| 22:08.01 | awilcox | brlcad: okay |
| 22:08.42 | awilcox | checking for sdl-config... (cached) no |
| 22:08.43 | brlcad | apparently, one-in-four of my lines of code ends up being a comment |
| 22:08.54 | JeffM | heh |
| 22:08.57 | awilcox | brlcad: rm -rf'd autom4te.cache, still have cache. |
| 22:09.05 | brlcad | there's a top-level cache file |
| 22:09.07 | awilcox | should I just re-checkout? |
| 22:09.09 | brlcad | delete that too |
| 22:09.10 | JeffM | wonder if it counts all the docs as comments |
| 22:09.11 | awilcox | okay |
| 22:09.18 | brlcad | it's got cache in the name |
| 22:09.57 | brlcad | JeffM: it counts the comment-block docs as comments .. but not files like authors and news -- doesn't count thme at all |
| 22:10.10 | JeffM | ahh |
| 22:10.19 | JeffM | well then I type too much :/ |
| 22:11.16 | awilcox | brlcad: yay :D |
| 22:11.24 | *** join/#bzflag Potato_man (n=lee@host86-131-196-125.range86-131.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:11.31 | awilcox | it found SDL. it didn't find SDL_image, though |
| 22:11.39 | JeffM | dosnt' need too |
| 22:11.46 | JeffM | that is optional |
| 22:11.55 | JeffM | since not everyone can us it |
| 22:11.55 | Tupone | and it is a bug in configure.in |
| 22:12.00 | JeffM | bug? |
| 22:12.04 | JeffM | we can use it |
| 22:12.04 | Tupone | yeah |
| 22:12.11 | Tupone | you windows |
| 22:12.15 | awilcox | O_O Now it says SSL support is disabled. |
| 22:12.16 | JeffM | trepan hooked it up IIRC |
| 22:12.27 | JeffM | windows dosn't use the configure |
| 22:12.30 | Tupone | 2.0.10 is broken |
| 22:12.34 | Tupone | for that |
| 22:12.34 | awilcox | I must ask really quick, is bzflag that sensitive of a game to need SSL? |
| 22:12.43 | JeffM | no |
| 22:12.48 | Potato_man | i wouldnt think so |
| 22:12.54 | JeffM | configure is all nix/mac |
| 22:13.06 | JeffM | and I belive the SDL image stuff is optional |
| 22:13.10 | awilcox | BZFlag client .....: yes (with SDL) |
| 22:13.11 | JeffM | treapan hooked it up |
| 22:13.18 | awilcox | \o/ yay thank you JeffM and brlcad :) |
| 22:13.28 | awilcox | and Tupone for the package name :) |
| 22:13.29 | JeffM | but it never became a big thing |
| 22:13.35 | Potato_man | has anyone here come up against a bad_alloc when running bzflag 3? it seems like a mem leak of some kind. |
| 22:13.36 | brlcad | we accept visa and master card |
| 22:13.37 | JeffM | PNG is good eno9ugh |
| 22:13.48 | JeffM | Potato_man, on exit? |
| 22:14.02 | Potato_man | it exits a few seconds after starting |
| 22:14.10 | Tupone | JeffM: what you mean "we can use it" . There is a bug on 2.0.10 on discovering sdl-image. Don't know if some one as fixed that on the upcoming |
| 22:14.15 | Potato_man | and produces that error |
| 22:14.32 | JeffM | Tupone, I mean it's tecincaly pointless to use it |
| 22:14.33 | brlcad | Potato_man: what platform? |
| 22:14.38 | Potato_man | linux |
| 22:14.38 | JeffM | since it's not going to be used by all systems |
| 22:14.41 | Potato_man | fedora 7 |
| 22:14.48 | JeffM | so if you use a JPEG in a map, not everyone could load it |
| 22:14.55 | JeffM | since it's a resource loader it's all or none |
| 22:15.03 | Constitution | hmm, I'm #4 for comment ratio :) |
| 22:15.05 | JeffM | I think it should be removed, but it's not a "bug" |
| 22:15.38 | Tupone | Well, reread what you wrote. I just answer to your "astonished" "bug?" "we can use it" :) |
| 22:15.53 | Tupone | is a bug in configure |
| 22:15.56 | awilcox | heh |
| 22:16.09 | JeffM | there may be a bug with it in configure, tha'd be a better way to say it |
| 22:16.15 | JeffM | tho I'm not sure what it has to do with windows |
| 22:16.22 | Tupone | nothing |
| 22:16.28 | awilcox | if I contributed, I'd probably be #1 for comment ratio. I've been known to make 7-8 line comment blocks at the head of functions, and comment _every_ _line_ |
| 22:16.29 | Tupone | I know |
| 22:16.31 | brlcad | Potato_man: can you get a stack trace? |
| 22:16.47 | Potato_man | dunno how |
| 22:16.53 | Potato_man | i kno wot it is, though |
| 22:16.57 | awilcox | stack trace! that reminds me, thank you brlcad, I need to grab gdb |
| 22:17.00 | brlcad | awilcox: that's not exactly useful commenting |
| 22:17.10 | Tupone | just trying to understand who was that "we can use it" |
| 22:17.25 | Potato_man | ah, gdb, i remember, 1 mo |
| 22:17.26 | awilcox | brlcad: it is when you are writing systems-level memory allocators :P |
| 22:17.27 | brlcad | mine's only so high because of large description blocks I put on most functions/classes |
| 22:17.29 | JeffM | the texture loader can use it |
| 22:17.38 | JeffM | as in call functions in it |
| 22:18.12 | awilcox | brlcad: that's the bulk of my comments too, but for critical, systems-level functions that are complex, I do comment quite liberally |
| 22:18.15 | brlcad | awilcox: no it's not, at least not every line .. that's rate you end up just explaining C basics |
| 22:18.16 | Tupone | ahh, well configure (IIRC) is wrong so unix/mac does not |
| 22:18.16 | JeffM | unless that code got pulled, I think it should be |
| 22:18.33 | JeffM | then noone uses it and we should pull it from config, and the code |
| 22:18.37 | awilcox | I was "raised" on the thought that there is no such thing as over-commenting. |
| 22:19.07 | brlcad | for people learning, that's usually true |
| 22:19.09 | Tupone | over-commenting is a bad habit, as under-commenting |
| 22:19.11 | JeffM | unless you think we have a need to load JPEG, GIF, and TIFF images as textures? |
| 22:19.22 | brlcad | you're learning the language, they want you to see that you understand what you're writing |
| 22:19.26 | Tupone | I prefer personally under-commenting to over |
| 22:20.02 | brlcad | I prefer no comments to wrong comments ;) |
| 22:20.05 | awilcox | ;) |
| 22:20.08 | Potato_man | i do the stacktrace, and i get "No Stack" |
| 22:20.13 | JeffM | if we do have a need, I'd use another lib on the VC builds over SDL_Image |
| 22:20.17 | awilcox | Potato_man: O_O |
| 22:20.32 | brlcad | Potato_man: you may need to recompile with debugging symbols enabled, otherwise put a break on exit |
| 22:20.40 | brlcad | it might be gracefully aborting |
| 22:21.27 | Tupone | Pommes: ./configure --enable-debug is your friend |
| 22:21.32 | Tupone | Potato_man: :) |
| 22:21.50 | Potato_man | im gonna recompile........ |
| 22:21.55 | Tupone | sorry :) evil tab completation |
| 22:22.03 | brlcad | unless you don't want debug symbols, then --enable-debug is your enemy |
| 22:22.25 | Tupone | brlcad: enable-debug should also remove the SDL trap |
| 22:23.07 | Tupone | so a crash is a crash and not an exit |
| 22:23.51 | awilcox | should I have done --enable-debug? odds are with an alpha like this, it's gonna crash somehow. |
| 22:24.10 | awilcox | Er. |
| 22:24.11 | brlcad | if it is actually crashing, maybe I missed a statement but didn't see that the actual cause of the shutdown was revealed |
| 22:24.12 | JeffM | awilcox, depends on how you want to respond to that crash |
| 22:24.18 | awilcox | Never mind, it isn't even compiling O_O |
| 22:25.02 | Potato_man | i never used gdb b4, (i jus kno it debugs) |
| 22:25.03 | Potato_man | ........still running make....... |
| 22:25.43 | awilcox | cURL won't compile: http://rafb.net/p/5xYV3p46.html |
| 22:26.15 | awilcox | did I uh...need to pull in more libs? :S |
| 22:26.33 | Tupone | libcurl-dev |
| 22:26.42 | *** part/#bzflag whodaman- (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-) |
| 22:26.46 | *** join/#bzflag whodaman- (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-) |
| 22:26.49 | brlcad | you're missing search paths for curl, or the curl headers aren't installed |
| 22:26.53 | brlcad | locate curl/curl.h |
| 22:27.39 | awilcox | Yeah, it's not even installed. |
| 22:27.47 | JeffM | curl good |
| 22:27.49 | awilcox | maybe this should be added to configure? O_O |
| 22:27.57 | brlcad | awilcox: go for it |
| 22:28.03 | awilcox | okay. |
| 22:28.34 | brlcad | he's going the distance, he's going for speeeeeed |
| 22:29.36 | awilcox | ugh, I hate trying to add things to configure scripts. shell scripting to me is harder than assembler |
| 22:29.51 | Potato_man | i think in assembly |
| 22:30.02 | JeffM | she's all alone, all alone in her time of need. |
| 22:31.19 | awilcox | good grief...this is like MS-DOS batch files on steroids :( |
| 22:32.08 | Tupone | awilcox: why you need to add? It is already. add libcurl-dev to your package list |
| 22:32.56 | awilcox | okay new idea, let's make the README file pop up in "less" before ./configure will run |
| 22:33.17 | awilcox | Tupone: then why did ./configure not yell at me? |
| 22:33.57 | Tupone | I think it did. Not that sure. |
| 22:34.23 | Tupone | just you don't have ears for that |
| 22:34.37 | Tupone | maybe :) |
| 22:34.39 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 22:34.39 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 22:34.41 | TD-Linux | awilcox, uhh, are you adding stuff to the ./configure script itself?? |
| 22:35.01 | awilcox | TD-Linux: I was going to. |
| 22:35.05 | TD-Linux | ew don't |
| 22:35.11 | TD-Linux | look at configure.am or configure.in |
| 22:35.14 | awilcox | haha |
| 22:35.15 | TD-Linux | forget which |
| 22:35.30 | TD-Linux | rerun autoconf & friends afterwards |
| 22:35.37 | TD-Linux | it consists of a single line I think |
| 22:35.50 | TD-Linux | to edit in curl detection, which it sounds like is what you want |
| 22:36.19 | awilcox | ...at this rate, I'm thinking I need to install fortran too. |
| 22:36.30 | JeffM | it just checks for all compilers |
| 22:37.19 | TD-Linux | I noticed most autoconf template scripts seem to do that |
| 22:38.10 | awilcox | JeffM: Didn't you just say that ./configure doesn't run on Windows? |
| 22:38.21 | JeffM | awilcox, I said that the windows builds don't use it |
| 22:38.28 | JeffM | you can use it on windows |
| 22:38.36 | awilcox | Then why is it checking for windows.h and winsock2? |
| 22:38.38 | JeffM | if your doing a mingw or cygwin build |
| 22:38.38 | awilcox | ohh, okay. |
| 22:38.57 | *** join/#bzflag Potato_ma1 (n=lee@host86-131-196-125.range86-131.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:39.07 | Potato_ma1 | y does this keep happening to my nick? |
| 22:39.09 | JeffM | our offical builds are done with Visual C++ and that dosn't use the make system at all |
| 22:39.24 | Potato_ma1 | whats with the 1??? |
| 22:39.26 | JeffM | Potato_ma1, probaby cus your old nic hasn't time out yet |
| 22:39.31 | Potato_ma1 | nah |
| 22:39.34 | JeffM | do a /nick your new name |
| 22:39.34 | Potato_ma1 | ah |
| 22:39.41 | JeffM | or your IRC client sucks |
| 22:39.59 | Potato_ma1 | i tried 2 clients |
| 22:40.00 | TD-Linux | if you quit without notifying the server (aka power goes out, you unplug eithernet cable, go into sleep mode, bring down network interface, etc) it happens |
| 22:40.11 | Potato_ma1 | anyway....back to gdb |
| 22:40.32 | Potato_ma1 | i ran it in gdb, but it crashed to the point where i had to do an X dump |
| 22:40.44 | JeffM | x died? |
| 22:40.50 | JeffM | what video card do you have? |
| 22:40.50 | Potato_ma1 | yes |
| 22:40.56 | Potato_ma1 | nvidia 7600 |
| 22:40.58 | awilcox | Potato_ma1: You don't by chance have an ATi graphics card, do you? |
| 22:40.59 | Potato_ma1 | :( |
| 22:41.00 | awilcox | Ahh, okay. |
| 22:41.02 | JeffM | what driver? |
| 22:41.07 | JeffM | nv or nvidia? |
| 22:41.11 | Potato_ma1 | non-proprietry |
| 22:41.12 | TD-Linux | bzflag killed my X a lot with a savage s3 |
| 22:41.21 | JeffM | so software |
| 22:41.22 | TD-Linux | ohh |
| 22:41.22 | awilcox | as I say, when I was in Gentoo 2007.1, bzflag made X go down due to a MESA bug. |
| 22:41.23 | TD-Linux | yeah |
| 22:41.26 | JeffM | yeah that driver probalby has a bug |
| 22:41.28 | TD-Linux | mesa crashes X a lot |
| 22:41.32 | TD-Linux | in general |
| 22:41.34 | TD-Linux | with bzflag |
| 22:41.36 | Potato_ma1 | it only happens with bzflag 3 |
| 22:41.40 | TD-Linux | I was using software with the s3 too |
| 22:41.48 | JeffM | we doa lot more with lists now |
| 22:41.54 | JeffM | and that crashes your driver |
| 22:41.58 | JeffM | get a driver that dosn't crash |
| 22:42.03 | Potato_ma1 | hmm |
| 22:42.05 | TD-Linux | though for me it crashed x / mesa with 2.0 too |
| 22:42.16 | JeffM | it should not be possible for app to crash X |
| 22:42.20 | TD-Linux | bzflag is pretty unplayable with software anyway |
| 22:42.24 | JeffM | only a driver level thing can do that |
| 22:42.33 | TD-Linux | you'll get about 1 fps |
| 22:42.43 | JeffM | again the nvidia drivers are rather good, I've never had a problem with them. |
| 22:42.58 | Potato_ma1 | it doesnt usually crash X though, it only did it when i ran it in gdb, otherwise, it just quits |
| 22:43.02 | TD-Linux | I have a ton of issues with the nvidia drivers, but then again I have a 8-series |
| 22:43.09 | JeffM | still going to say driver |
| 22:43.16 | Potato_ma1 | odd |
| 22:43.21 | JeffM | not really |
| 22:43.37 | JeffM | I changed a fair amount of drawing code in trunk |
| 22:43.39 | TD-Linux | you could try renouveau if you are scared of official nvidia |
| 22:43.44 | TD-Linux | err |
| 22:43.46 | TD-Linux | nouveau |
| 22:43.47 | TD-Linux | without re |
| 22:44.14 | Potato_ma1 | ok, i did a trace, and got: "No Stack" |
| 22:44.33 | JeffM | yeah your dying in a bad place |
| 22:44.34 | Potato_ma1 | oops, no fonts found |
| 22:44.39 | JeffM | oh |
| 22:44.40 | Potato_ma1 | sry |
| 22:44.51 | JeffM | did you do the make install? |
| 22:44.51 | Potato_ma1 | im running it in src/bzflag |
| 22:44.56 | JeffM | well tha'd be wy |
| 22:45.05 | JeffM | make the working dir be the source root |
| 22:45.07 | JeffM | where data is |
| 22:45.13 | JeffM | then do ./src/bzflag |
| 22:45.21 | JeffM | so we can find the data dir |
| 22:45.24 | JeffM | or do a make install |
| 22:45.31 | Potato_ma1 | directory ../../data |
| 22:45.32 | JeffM | we need to find the TTF files |
| 22:45.35 | JeffM | or that |
| 22:45.43 | JeffM | ether one works |
| 22:46.59 | TD-Linux | I should update my bzflag 2.1... er 3 |
| 22:47.42 | JeffM | it's now got intelifog |
| 22:47.54 | *** join/#bzflag potato_ma1 (n=lee@host86-131-196-125.range86-131.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:48.02 | potato_ma1 | nope, X crash again |
| 22:48.12 | potato_ma1 | :'( |
| 22:48.17 | JeffM | driver |
| 22:48.18 | Tupone | have you tried -window |
| 22:48.22 | potato_ma1 | i spose |
| 22:48.28 | potato_ma1 | good idea |
| 22:48.35 | JeffM | yeah -window 800x600 or something |
| 22:48.50 | Tupone | maybe is not a good idea. But is an idea |
| 22:49.02 | potato_ma1 | we'll see |
| 22:49.04 | JeffM | it is |
| 22:49.10 | JeffM | cus that just also means driver ;) |
| 22:49.26 | JeffM | res swap problems seem more common then actual GL problems |
| 22:49.42 | SpazzyMcGee | hmmm... Having trouble with mesh. Whenever I move it away from 0 0 0 with shift in a group, it doesn't draw some faces. |
| 22:50.51 | *** join/#bzflag Potato_ma1 (n=lee@host86-131-196-125.range86-131.btcentralplus.com) |
| 22:51.04 | awilcox | Potato_ma1: lemme guess, still crashes X? |
| 22:51.15 | awilcox | thereby, JeffM is right, and you need a new display driver? |
| 22:51.38 | Potato_ma1 | ok, we got some debug info that time, but it confined mouse to window, so i couldnt get to it |
| 22:51.46 | Potato_ma1 | im gonna quickly disable confine |
| 22:52.40 | awilcox | it will build ares and freetype2, but curl, ftgl, regex, and zlib are using system. is this okay? |
| 22:52.56 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:53.03 | JeffM | probably even good |
| 22:53.14 | awilcox | client will build with sdl, server will build with plugins, admin will build with ncurses, and robots will build without python. |
| 22:53.21 | awilcox | if this seems alright, I will type make once again. |
| 22:55.18 | Potato_ma1 | interesting..the problem has changed to a segfault now im not in root: |
| 22:55.18 | Potato_ma1 | Starting program: /home/lee/bzflag3/src/bzflag/bzflag -window -directory ../../data |
| 22:55.18 | Potato_ma1 | [Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled] |
| 22:55.18 | Potato_ma1 | [New Thread -1208117520 (LWP 14041)] |
| 22:55.18 | Potato_ma1 | [New Thread 24746896 (LWP 14044)] |
| 22:55.18 | Potato_ma1 | Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. |
| 22:55.20 | Potato_ma1 | [Switching to Thread -1208117520 (LWP 14041)] |
| 22:55.22 | Potato_ma1 | 0x00b2f44b in strlen () from /lib/libc.so.6 |
| 22:55.36 | awilcox | Ooh. |
| 22:55.40 | JeffM | Potato_ma1, pastebin stuff that big please |
| 22:55.41 | awilcox | ~pastebin |
| 22:55.42 | ibot | [~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you can paste anything over 3 lines without flooding the channel. Here are links to a few : http://www.pastebin.com , http://pastebin.ca , http://channels.debian.net/paste , http://paste.lisp.org , http://www.rafb.net/paste |
| 22:55.53 | Potato_ma1 | ok, sry |
| 22:55.57 | JeffM | ~bzpastebin |
| 22:55.58 | ibot | somebody said bzpastebin was http://pastebin.bzflag.bz a place to put large chunks of text to not flood a channel |
| 22:56.02 | JeffM | we have our own ;) |
| 22:56.10 | awilcox | JefM: ooh didn't know that :D |
| 22:56.21 | Potato_ma1 | it seems u hav flooded the channel even more, jus talkin about it |
| 22:56.23 | Potato_ma1 | lol |
| 22:56.39 | awilcox | okay, it's building freetype2. I have to wonder what's so bad about libfreetype6-dev that I have on my system, though. |
| 22:56.46 | JeffM | strlen, odd |
| 22:56.53 | Potato_ma1 | ~pastebin |
| 22:56.54 | ibot | [~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you can paste anything over 3 lines without flooding the channel. Here are links to a few : http://www.pastebin.com , http://pastebin.ca , http://channels.debian.net/paste , http://paste.lisp.org , http://www.rafb.net/paste |
| 22:57.03 | JeffM | awilcox, config just isn't set to use it mostlikely |
| 22:57.27 | JeffM | ftgl wants ft2 |
| 22:57.29 | awilcox | it says something like "Not >= 7.0.2! go die." |
| 22:57.42 | awilcox | well, not in so many words, but that is the general idea. |
| 22:57.43 | JeffM | huh? |
| 22:58.17 | awilcox | it finds /usr/bin/freetype-config, but complains that it is 6.x, not >=7.0.2, and then says "The freetype test failed to run." |
| 22:58.28 | TD-Linux | maybe |
| 22:58.30 | awilcox | it was really strange, but it's scrolled off the screen. |
| 22:58.33 | TD-Linux | libfreetype7-dev |
| 22:58.36 | TD-Linux | hint hint |
| 22:58.38 | Potato_ma1 | http://pastebin.com/m63b26c97 <-stack trace |
| 22:59.08 | JeffM | that's in the MOTD |
| 22:59.10 | JeffM | in curl |
| 22:59.11 | awilcox | E: Couldn't find package libfreetype7-dev |
| 22:59.51 | Potato_ma1 | jeff, u talkin to me, or awilcox? |
| 22:59.57 | JeffM__ | you |
| 23:00.03 | awilcox | doNetworkStuff()? what a descriptive function name :P this seems like a fun team to dev with :) |
| 23:00.05 | Potato_ma1 | cool |
| 23:00.30 | *** join/#bzflag Warinthestar (n=Warinthe@1.168.188.72.cfl.res.rr.com) |
| 23:00.35 | Potato_ma1 | so..should i update curl? |
| 23:00.41 | JeffM__ | just wait a sec |
| 23:00.47 | Potato_ma1 | k |
| 23:01.03 | awilcox | Potato_ma1: I wouldn't think that would help, unless it used system libraries. Did it? |
| 23:01.43 | Potato_ma1 | havent done anything yet. |
| 23:01.45 | JeffM__ | Potato_ma1, I'm guessing that you have a real bug |
| 23:01.51 | Potato_ma1 | it seems |
| 23:01.54 | JeffM__ | Erroneous recently changed that code |
| 23:02.15 | Potato_ma1 | is erroneous a programmer? |
| 23:02.29 | Potato_ma1 | <thinks how stupid question is> |
| 23:02.51 | awilcox | Potato_ma1: Yes, he's a bzflag dev. |
| 23:03.04 | JeffM__ | comment out lines 88 to 111 |
| 23:03.09 | JeffM__ | and see if that helps |
| 23:03.12 | Potato_ma1 | wot file? |
| 23:03.15 | awilcox | bzflag-dev is a meta package that includes JeffM, Erroneous, and a few others :P |
| 23:03.20 | JeffM__ | motd.cxx |
| 23:03.23 | Potato_ma1 | k |
| 23:03.35 | JeffM__ | it's part of the auto update code |
| 23:04.38 | JeffM | how old is your code? |
| 23:05.00 | Potato_ma1 | i got it from SVN today |
| 23:05.02 | awilcox | JeffM: how do you keep getting underscores? O_O |
| 23:05.17 | JeffM | what? |
| 23:05.19 | JeffM__ | why |
| 23:05.21 | JeffM | do |
| 23:05.23 | JeffM__ | you |
| 23:05.25 | JeffM | say |
| 23:05.28 | JeffM__ | that? |
| 23:05.31 | JeffM | ;) |
| 23:05.33 | awilcox | :) |
| 23:05.34 | JeffM | 2 machines |
| 23:05.39 | awilcox | ahh |
| 23:05.43 | Potato_ma1 | OO |
| 23:05.48 | Potato_ma1 | O_O |
| 23:06.00 | *** join/#bzflag delusional (n=delusion@unaffiliated/delusional) |
| 23:07.29 | *** join/#bzflag whodaman- (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-) |
| 23:09.42 | *** join/#bzflag gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-145-188-131.range86-145.btcentralplus.com) |
| 23:10.07 | Potato_ma1 | lil problem: http://pastebin.com/m81a6a83 |
| 23:10.07 | Potato_ma1 | never encountered this before. |
| 23:10.30 | JeffM | ahh ok |
| 23:10.31 | JeffM | one sec |
| 23:10.34 | JeffM | it's cus your debug |
| 23:10.40 | JeffM | you'l have to comment out something else |
| 23:10.43 | JeffM | let me find the line |
| 23:10.50 | Potato_ma1 | like 46 and 41? |
| 23:11.28 | *** join/#bzflag zee087 (i=80f0e503@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-af3f723466d65a4c) |
| 23:11.29 | Potato_ma1 | w00t, it compiles!! |
| 23:11.45 | JeffM | yeah |
| 23:12.20 | JeffM | Erroneous is talkin to Dave, I'll let him know he needs to look at his code when he's done |
| 23:13.18 | Potato_ma1 | thanks JeffM, you hav given 96% more help than an hour of google-sifting. |
| 23:14.12 | JeffM | it's a development verson of a silly tank game, google won't have much ;) |
| 23:15.46 | Potato_ma1 | it isnt that silly, its just about the best open source game ive encountered |
| 23:16.00 | JeffM | that dosn't say much for open source games ;) |
| 23:16.01 | awilcox | Heh. |
| 23:16.04 | *** join/#bzflag whodaman-_ (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-) |
| 23:16.09 | awilcox | Sometimes I forget it's open-source, that's how good it is. |
| 23:16.15 | Potato_ma1 | seconded |
| 23:16.26 | JeffM | don't play many comercial games do you? |
| 23:16.32 | JeffM | cube > bzflag in nearly every way |
| 23:16.47 | JeffM | cube is one of my goals :) |
| 23:16.56 | awilcox | JeffM: I don't really, and for me, fancy graphics < gameplay |
| 23:17.13 | awilcox | bzflag has probably the best gameplay of any game I can run on Linux (save for SimCity 3000) |
| 23:17.15 | JeffM | I don't mean in graphics |
| 23:17.32 | JeffM | I mean in docs, gameplay, consistentcy, presentation,overall quality, etc.. |
| 23:17.45 | Potato_ma1 | ive tried 3d programming, but every time i try something, i start wondering how translation matrices work or sumthing, and i forget all about it. |
| 23:17.51 | JeffM | cube does not have the best graphics in the world |
| 23:18.02 | JeffM | but is is a well designed and pollished project. |
| 23:18.20 | awilcox | :) |
| 23:18.34 | awilcox | :O client done!!!! |
| 23:18.39 | JeffM | our design and end user experience is weak IMHO |
| 23:18.41 | awilcox | "Making all in bzfs" |
| 23:18.58 | awilcox | JeffM: end user experience = gameplay, or menus, or what? |
| 23:19.00 | JeffM | we don't help you register, our list of games is horible. |
| 23:19.06 | JeffM | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:19.08 | JeffM | etc.. |
| 23:19.13 | awilcox | Um. |
| 23:19.20 | *** join/#bzflag QuantumBeep (n=QuantumB@doc-72-47-73-208.leesville.la.cebridge.net) |
| 23:19.26 | L4m3r | default controls are... less than intuitive |
| 23:19.30 | awilcox | You move around and shoot at moving things, unless they are your color. |
| 23:19.38 | awilcox | That's FFA. |
| 23:19.47 | JeffM | exactly, where does the game tell you that |
| 23:19.56 | JeffM | and in FFA, you don't shoot your color |
| 23:20.00 | awilcox | You move around and try and get other coloured flags, unless other people shoot at you, in which case you shoot at them. |
| 23:20.08 | JeffM | cus it's not FFA, it's TEAM FFA |
| 23:20.21 | Constitution | so shoot at other shots? ;) |
| 23:20.23 | awilcox | JeffM: that's what I said, "unless they are your olour". |
| 23:20.23 | JeffM | our "free" for all is not realy free |
| 23:20.25 | awilcox | *colour |
| 23:20.39 | JeffM | awilcox, if your used to other games, Free for all means realy free for all |
| 23:20.41 | Constitution | that might be an interesting flag, actually... your shots rico other shots out of the way |
| 23:20.44 | JeffM | not team deathmatch |
| 23:20.58 | JeffM | Constitution, that'd be rather hard techincaly, shot sync etc.. |
| 23:21.01 | awilcox | Constitution: \o/! |
| 23:21.06 | Constitution | hmm |
| 23:21.10 | awilcox | JeffM: true |
| 23:21.15 | Potato_ma1 | so, as one of the devs, did u stick any easter-eggs in? |
| 23:21.21 | JeffM | once you had a full server shot state, and shot update messages, yes |
| 23:21.27 | JeffM | Potato_ma1, no |
| 23:21.30 | Potato_ma1 | n:( |
| 23:21.37 | JeffM | it's not that kind of development |
| 23:21.45 | JeffM | do you know the history of the game |
| 23:21.49 | JeffM | or how old it is? |
| 23:21.54 | Potato_ma1 | nope |
| 23:22.04 | JeffM | it's an old SGI tech demo |
| 23:22.12 | JeffM | 13+years |
| 23:22.17 | Potato_ma1 | blimey |
| 23:22.22 | awilcox | :P |
| 23:23.00 | JeffM | it's good that, you like it, and that's it good for what your used to, but I personaly can see it go a lot further then it is now |
| 23:23.46 | Potato_ma1 | i would like to see an anaglyph mode(3d glasses), maybe a 3d shutter mode... |
| 23:23.58 | JeffM | so use them |
| 23:24.02 | JeffM | been in for ages |
| 23:24.04 | Pimpi | hm, we had that, no? |
| 23:24.06 | JeffM | yeah |
| 23:24.11 | JeffM | both of em |
| 23:24.22 | JeffM | 2 types of HMDs and anaglaph |
| 23:24.38 | JeffM | again it IS an old SGI demo ;) |
| 23:24.48 | JeffM | tho anaglaph was added post open source. |
| 23:25.00 | brlcad | Potato_ma1: there's a LOT more to working on a game than 3d programming and translation matrices |
| 23:25.11 | Potato_ma1 | i kno, lol |
| 23:25.17 | brlcad | if you're interested in getting into bzflag stuff, there's quite a few places you could jump in |
| 23:25.24 | brlcad | that have nothing to do with 3d ;) |
| 23:25.32 | JeffM | plug-ins are an easy way to get involved |
| 23:26.01 | Potato_ma1 | ive only had a lil look around the code, that wos ages ago, before i got banned for flying in hepcat. :( |
| 23:26.08 | Potato_ma1 | i dont mod it now |
| 23:26.55 | Pimpi | oh, flying is a cheap cheat... |
| 23:26.58 | Potato_ma1 | i kno |
| 23:27.03 | JeffM | w |
| 23:27.11 | brlcad | fixing a known bug, testing an existing patch, adding a new (pre-approved) flag, writing a plugin, working on the bzbot interface, code cleanup, testing |
| 23:27.11 | Potato_ma1 | not only does it ruin the game, it gets u kicked/banned |
| 23:27.14 | JeffM | one more letter isn't that hard tot type ;) |
| 23:27.20 | brlcad | lots of fun to be had |
| 23:27.43 | awilcox | brlcad: that was the point of me svn co'ing today |
| 23:27.54 | awilcox | have been bored, wanting something to do, figure I can fix what I've been doing :) |
| 23:27.59 | JeffM | fix local bots |
| 23:28.06 | JeffM | that'd be a big help for 3.0 |
| 23:28.17 | Potato_ma1 | how about that bzflag console edition, that might work on the hydra console |
| 23:28.23 | JeffM | why? |
| 23:28.28 | awilcox | O_O |
| 23:28.34 | awilcox | How can you play bz on the CLI? |
| 23:28.46 | JeffM | he means game console |
| 23:28.52 | Potato_ma1 | lol |
| 23:29.07 | Potato_ma1 | its like a game dev kit, parallax propeller uC, 8 processors, 160MIPS |
| 23:29.08 | JeffM | some have talked the talk on console ports |
| 23:29.19 | Pimpi | ascii mode bzflag :/ |
| 23:29.22 | JeffM | it'd basicly be a rewrite |
| 23:29.34 | JeffM | not exactly a small place to get "into" |
| 23:29.43 | JeffM | and you'd have to redo most if not all of the graphics code |
| 23:29.45 | brlcad | Potato_ma1: not realistic, albeit amusing -- hydra doesn't have C proper or an opengl pipeline |
| 23:29.56 | JeffM | as I know of no console that nativly supports openGL |
| 23:30.38 | Potato_ma1 | y does it need openGL, i heard sum1 wos working on a battlezone clone for it, but i think they stopped. |
| 23:30.44 | JeffM | what? |
| 23:30.52 | JeffM | can you please type all the letters of a word |
| 23:31.02 | Potato_ma1 | SoRry |
| 23:31.03 | JeffM | our current code does all it's rendering in openGL |
| 23:31.12 | JeffM | so ether you have openGL on your port platform |
| 23:31.21 | JeffM | or you rewrite ALL the graphics code |
| 23:31.26 | Potato_ma1 | could be fun |
| 23:31.33 | *** join/#bzflag donny (n=joevano@about/essy/vvvvv/donnybaker) |
| 23:31.38 | JeffM | you just said you didn't like graphics programing. |
| 23:31.52 | Potato_ma1 | i do like it, just not when i dont do it from the ground up |
| 23:31.55 | brlcad | there's where that ogre port could be interesting, if you could encapsulate all of the drawing calls since ogre also does direct3d |
| 23:32.06 | JeffM | mmmm ogre |
| 23:32.26 | Pimpi | there's be a lot of server side stuff i'd like to see done, which i won't ahve time to do myself in quite a while ;) |
| 23:32.43 | JeffM | networking, server side shots, collision prediction. |
| 23:32.58 | Potato_ma1 | teleporters that transport you between servers |
| 23:33.07 | JeffM | meh |
| 23:33.17 | Potato_ma1 | so you could have one big map, with the load split across servers |
| 23:33.17 | brlcad | sure, portals |
| 23:33.35 | brlcad | would make for an easy lobby |
| 23:33.39 | Pimpi | i had that idea too years ago, but after all it's no good idea |
| 23:33.54 | JeffM | if we want a loby, make a loby ;) |
| 23:34.23 | JeffM | Winny, so what you realy just want is.. soft shadows? |
| 23:34.28 | JeffM | that's not hard with shaders |
| 23:34.35 | JeffM | everyone go get a Geforce 4 |
| 23:34.43 | Erroneous | Potato_ma1: p i and p messages[i] would be useful on that backtrace |
| 23:35.15 | Winny | JeffM: and nice water ;) |
| 23:35.26 | JeffM | shaders |
| 23:35.29 | JeffM | it's all shaders |
| 23:35.40 | JeffM | I"m all for ditching software |
| 23:36.01 | JeffM | ogre would let us do a more scaleable system |
| 23:36.10 | L4m3r | JeffM: yeah, but what about all the poor suckers who play bzflag on emachines? :P |
| 23:36.12 | JeffM | there material def allows for fallback tyle materials |
| 23:36.23 | JeffM | so we could have crap mats for them |
| 23:36.27 | Potato_ma1 | one other problem i can see with using the hydra is there is only 32kb of ram, ~20kb would be used for double buffered half decent graphics. oh, well, we(just i) can always dream. |
| 23:36.45 | JeffM | Potato_ma1, that isn't realy designed as a 3d graphics machine |
| 23:36.55 | JeffM | a 100$ computer would do better then it |
| 23:37.06 | brlcad | hm, i'm kinda grooving on the idea actually -- if the portal could display the server name in the wave or across the top bar or something, generate a portal map that auto-includes all public servers categorized/organized automatically .. turn off shots |
| 23:37.08 | JeffM | and anyone who owns one of those, HAS a computer |
| 23:37.26 | Potato_ma1 | i spose so |
| 23:38.03 | L4m3r | brlcad: you could do most of that client-side, theoretically |
| 23:38.12 | Potato_ma1 | would have been perfect for the PSP |
| 23:38.16 | L4m3r | after all, the list isn't the same for everyone |
| 23:38.49 | JeffM | Potato_ma1, bzflag isn't a fun single player game |
| 23:38.58 | JeffM | and most portable systems are not always near wifi |
| 23:38.58 | Potato_ma1 | PSP has wifi |
| 23:39.07 | JeffM | having wifi dosn't mean your always connected ;) |
| 23:39.25 | JeffM | psp games have mutliplery compoennts, but also have single player for when your not |
| 23:39.31 | Potato_ma1 | your right, as right as you could be. |
| 23:39.57 | JeffM | at best console port would only be done for the fun of the developers |
| 23:40.06 | brlcad | L4m3r: sure, client or server -- though I'd probably make it server-based so different maps could be sent out if we wanted to update the lobby |
| 23:40.09 | JeffM | it's not exactly a realy viable way to play in this day in age. |
| 23:40.44 | L4m3r | bzflag is too text-centric to make a good console game |
| 23:40.52 | L4m3r | as of right now, anyway |
| 23:41.05 | JeffM | Potato_ma1, after you commented out those lines, does your game actualy run? |
| 23:41.15 | awilcox | BZFlag would be neat for the Xbox Live thing. |
| 23:41.17 | Potato_ma1 | jeffM: yep, thanks |
| 23:41.31 | JeffM | did you see Erroneous comment to you on it? |
| 23:41.39 | JeffM | he needs somo more info to fix the bug |
| 23:41.56 | awilcox | 18:32 <+Erroneous> Potato_ma1: p i and p messages[i] would be useful on that backtrace |
| 23:42.00 | JeffM | awilcox, that is the only possibility, making it a live arcade thing |
| 23:42.05 | Potato_ma1 | ah |
| 23:42.06 | awilcox | JeffM: Yeah. |
| 23:42.10 | JeffM | but the efforts would be high |
| 23:42.29 | Potato_ma1 | i dont really understand what he means(gdb noob) |
| 23:42.32 | awilcox | brlcad: :o you have the same comcrap-tastic ISP as me! |
| 23:42.32 | JeffM | it'd be a total XNA rewrite |
| 23:42.44 | JeffM | Potato_ma1, then ask him for clarification |
| 23:43.16 | Potato_ma1 | k |
| 23:43.23 | Erroneous | Potato_ma1: after "bt" that produced that output, type "p i" and "p messages[i]" :) |
| 23:44.03 | Potato_ma1 | in the source code? |
| 23:44.10 | Erroneous | no, in gdb |
| 23:44.16 | Potato_ma1 | ah, ok |
| 23:44.19 | awilcox | Long time no see, chap! how goes? :D |
| 23:44.20 | Erroneous | I presume you typed bt to get the backtrace |
| 23:44.32 | Erroneous | so type those other things the same place |
| 23:44.50 | Erroneous | goes fine, awilcox |
| 23:44.57 | Erroneous | busy |
| 23:45.00 | Erroneous | but fine |
| 23:45.47 | awilcox | Erroneous: same here :) |
| 23:45.59 | awilcox | first time in a week or so I've been on IRC very much |
| 23:46.17 | Erroneous | but you said you were bored...that doesn't add up :P |
| 23:46.35 | *** join/#bzflag rob1n (n=rob1n@unaffiliated/rob1n) |
| 23:46.46 | awilcox | Erroneous: yeah I've been playing torcs a lot |
| 23:47.00 | awilcox | I'd like to play bzflag but Debian seems picky about my joystick |
| 23:47.11 | awilcox | sometimes it comes up automagically, other times it doesn't even appear in lsusb |
| 23:47.37 | Erroneous | sometimes it helps to unplug and plug in to a different port |
| 23:47.58 | Erroneous | generally means some kind of controller flakiness that the driver doesn't bother working around |
| 23:48.41 | awilcox | yay it works. |
| 23:48.45 | awilcox | Erroneous: only one free port :( |
| 23:49.34 | Erroneous | swap it with a different device then, for the same effect...the idea is not that that port is not working, just that it's "asleep" |
| 23:50.28 | Potato_ma1 | ok, i did it, and i got No symbol "i" in current context(for p i) |
| 23:50.28 | Potato_ma1 | then i got the same about "messages" |
| 23:50.40 | Erroneous | oops |
| 23:50.54 | Potato_ma1 | oops? |
| 23:50.56 | brlcad | up |
| 23:51.17 | Erroneous | do "frame 2" first |
| 23:51.23 | Potato_ma1 | k |
| 23:51.23 | Erroneous | then the p lines |
| 23:52.12 | Erroneous | been working with vc too long, context follows the source window :) |
| 23:52.31 | Potato_ma1 | http://pastebin.com/m2149e5c |
| 23:52.33 | Potato_ma1 | there |
| 23:53.04 | Erroneous | mmm, that's pretty much jacked :) |
| 23:53.13 | Potato_ma1 | jacked? |
| 23:53.18 | JeffM | jacked |
| 23:53.52 | Erroneous | fubar |
| 23:54.06 | Potato_ma1 | ah |
| 23:54.09 | Potato_ma1 | i see |
| 23:54.48 | Erroneous | the question is how it got that way :) |
| 23:54.53 | Potato_ma1 | hmm |
| 23:55.27 | Erroneous | since good was false, messages should only be of size 1, so you should never have gotten to i=16 |
| 23:57.53 | Potato_ma1 | http://pastebin.com/m25b11b98 <---its slightly different, maybe cos i did it twice |
| 23:58.12 | awilcox | sucktastic graphics card + slow processor + g++ + media player = 3-5 frames per second. |
| 23:58.16 | awilcox | :/ |
| 23:58.20 | Potato_ma1 | that is the result of doing everything in the right order |
| 23:58.58 | Erroneous | mmm, that's very different from your first one (that's a successful call not an unsuccessful one) |
| 23:59.12 | Erroneous | but that helps explain how it got to 16 :) |
| 23:59.13 | awilcox | \o/ I can now beta test BZFlag 2.99 :) |
| 23:59.25 | brlcad | Erroneous: possibly the new motd that returns multiple? |
| 23:59.38 | Erroneous | returns multiple? |
| 23:59.39 | Potato_ma1 | the game tends to crash at random times |
