| 00:33.40 | brlcad | Epyon: I can, though I haven't touched your build files to date, have I? |
| 00:33.57 | Epyon | brlcad, ? |
| 00:34.53 | brlcad | ? |
| 00:34.59 | Epyon | what do you mean? |
| 00:35.14 | brlcad | I mean I could update it |
| 00:35.22 | brlcad | just wondering what the impromptu is |
| 00:36.11 | brlcad | otherwise, (at least) just worry that it builds for you for the time being -- others can work on the build for other env's if needed |
| 00:36.17 | Epyon | no hurry, just that I feel bad about keeping a bad Makefile -_-. daxxar mentioned something that now i need -lm to compile. |
| 00:36.33 | Epyon | kk |
| 00:36.34 | Erroneous | brlcad: you wrote his Makefile, actually - http://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bzflag?view=rev&revision=14539 |
| 00:36.43 | Epyon | he did :P |
| 00:36.57 | Erroneous | so "haven't touched" is a wee bit off :) |
| 00:37.06 | brlcad | ah, so I did (hence my original question) |
| 00:37.28 | brlcad | it was a leading question, but a question nonetheless :) |
| 00:38.09 | brlcad | Epyon: see that "LIBS =" line, you can add the -lm right there |
| 00:38.41 | brlcad | I should fix the .cxx.o rules, I realize now what I left out |
| 00:44.55 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@2002:4cb1:b40f:0:0:0:0:1) |
| 00:44.56 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 00:46.17 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14736 10/trunk/bzwgen/Makefile: simplify, use the SUFFIXES rule. add -lm, and make warnings errors (shouldn't ignore them) |
| 00:47.08 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14737 10/trunk/bzwgen/Mesh.cxx: spurious ; |
| 00:47.48 | Epyon | OMG, there'll be a conflict o.O |
| 00:50.59 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14738 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (Mesh.cxx Mesh.h): quell warnings |
| 00:51.13 | brlcad | commit frequently, commit often :) |
| 00:51.41 | brlcad | if you get a conflict, edit the conflicting file, then "svn resolved file.cxx" |
| 00:51.49 | brlcad | (then commit) |
| 00:52.42 | Epyon | I can't commit now, should I update instead? |
| 00:55.05 | Epyon | kk I see |
| 00:55.17 | brlcad | you should always update before committing |
| 00:55.38 | brlcad | you should update constantly (particularly if someone else makes an edit) |
| 00:55.45 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14739 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (Mesh.cxx Mesh.h): Implemented extrudeFace and a few helper methods |
| 00:55.47 | brlcad | otherwise you're just inviting more conflicts |
| 00:57.33 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14740 10/trunk/bzwgen/bzlgen.vcproj: enable warnings as errors, maybe dtr can sanity check whether there are any unfixable ones that might make this a bad idea for epyon |
| 00:58.15 | Epyon | The output doesn't produce any warnings? o.O |
| 00:58.41 | brlcad | it might now |
| 00:58.46 | brlcad | reopen the project |
| 00:58.49 | brlcad | debug mode |
| 00:59.39 | brlcad | after updating, of course |
| 00:59.39 | Epyon | yep, nothing changed |
| 00:59.54 | brlcad | hm, warning level might be too low |
| 01:00.37 | Epyon | hmm, or it might not have reopened the project correctly o.O |
| 01:00.58 | Epyon | because bzlgen.vcproj is mrked as modified |
| 01:01.27 | Epyon | how can I fetch the older bzlgen? |
| 01:01.34 | Epyon | (the one you commited) |
| 01:01.57 | brlcad | do an svn diff on the file |
| 01:02.16 | brlcad | it might have simply added more rules after I (hand-added) the three new ones |
| 01:02.32 | Epyon | ah, no, all ok |
| 01:03.04 | Epyon | + <File |
| 01:03.04 | Epyon | + RelativePath=".\Mesh.cxx" |
| 01:03.04 | Epyon | + > |
| 01:03.04 | Epyon | + </File> |
| 01:03.04 | Epyon | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:04.24 | brlcad | oops, and I actually didn't enable warnings as errors |
| 01:05.07 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14741 10/trunk/bzwgen/bzlgen.vcproj: oops, I actually didn't enable warnings as errors. try level 4 while we're at it. |
| 01:05.45 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14742 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (Output.h common.h): Fix for proper per-face material handling |
| 01:07.49 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14743 10/trunk/bzwgen/FloorZone.cxx: Material bug fixed |
| 01:08.27 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14744 10/trunk/bzwgen/Zone.h: more warnings to quell -- constructor initialization matters, and it's virtual so needs a virtual destructor |
| 01:09.01 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14745 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (BuildZone.cxx BuildZone.h bzlgen.vcproj): Buildings are now also handled via the Mesh object, built using a single extrudeFace |
| 01:09.54 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14746 10/trunk/bzwgen/Mesh.cxx: if you call size() on a std::vector, it returns an _unsigned_ int so need an unsigned iterator or a bigger type with a cast |
| 01:10.50 | Epyon | Yeah, now it doesn't compile :P |
| 01:11.28 | Epyon | mainly float int conversions - must I correct all those o.O |
| 01:12.03 | Epyon | Woah a bug was found thanks to that :D |
| 01:12.17 | Epyon | Okay, I'll make all the typecasts implicit. |
| 01:12.35 | DTRemenak | mm, level 4 is useless |
| 01:12.46 | Epyon | "warning C4100: 'out' : unreferenced formal parameter" ? |
| 01:13.18 | DTRemenak | Epyon: that'll trigger an error on gcc, you should fix it |
| 01:13.20 | Epyon | How can I clear that one o.O |
| 01:13.28 | DTRemenak | use it, or comment it out |
| 01:13.29 | Epyon | virtual void output(Output& out) {}; |
| 01:13.41 | Epyon | I can't because it's overloaded |
| 01:13.45 | DTRemenak | virtual void output(Output& /* out */ ) {}; |
| 01:14.02 | Epyon | can I do that? |
| 01:14.05 | DTRemenak | yup |
| 01:23.38 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14747 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (6 files): Cleared all warnings |
| 01:23.41 | Epyon | :D |
| 01:26.46 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14748 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (BuildZone.cxx Output.h): Removed obsolete code |
| 01:26.59 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14749 10/trunk/bzwgen/Zone.h: almost clean, classes with virtual funcs need a virtual destructor |
| 01:27.30 | brlcad | now it builds cleanly on os x too |
| 01:27.38 | Epyon | :D |
| 01:27.54 | brlcad | and it even runs without crashing ;) |
| 01:27.54 | Epyon | Ok, that's it for today, I need a beer. |
| 01:27.58 | brlcad | ~Epyon++ |
| 01:28.12 | brlcad | ~beer Epyon |
| 01:28.36 | ibot | ACTION pours a quart of Jever for Epyon |
| 01:28.36 | Epyon | :D |
| 01:29.01 | Epyon | brlcad, I hope to keep at least this level of commiting for the rest of the project. |
| 01:29.55 | Epyon | I can't check it but I have a wierd feeling that I increased the projects LOC count by 33% today -_- |
| 01:31.48 | awilcox | LOC? |
| 01:31.57 | blast007 | lines of code |
| 01:32.36 | awilcox | ahh. |
| 01:32.36 | awilcox | Epyon: sure you can |
| 01:32.50 | DTRemenak | awilcox: don't encourage him...time spent measuring code is time NOT spent writing code :) |
| 01:32.55 | brlcad | Epyon: I hope you do too :) |
| 01:33.07 | brlcad | heh |
| 01:33.08 | awilcox | svn co repo://your.host.com/repo --revision old_rev_from_yesterday |
| 01:33.11 | brlcad | ~DTRemenak++ |
| 01:33.16 | awilcox | diff oldrepo newrepo |
| 01:33.19 | awilcox | Simple. |
| 01:33.24 | awilcox | DTRemenak: :P |
| 01:34.00 | Epyon | DTRemenak, it's beer time for me anyway :P |
| 01:34.10 | brlcad | awilcox: why don't you check it for him and get back to us with that number ;) |
| 01:34.14 | DTRemenak | then enjoy your beer, and don't waste time measuring the code :) |
| 01:34.29 | awilcox | brlcad: sure. |
| 01:34.47 | Epyon | Anyway, commits speak louder than words, so instead of counting I'll resume commiting tommorow xP |
| 01:34.52 | DTRemenak | woot! |
| 01:34.55 | brlcad | good plan |
| 01:35.27 | awilcox | Yay. |
| 01:40.22 | Epyon | Duh, a blog post was in order, but short and not exactly "techy" -_- |
| 01:41.08 | Epyon | DTRemenak, yeah, I enjoy each beer I drink ;] |
| 01:41.32 | DTRemenak | good :) |
| 01:42.53 | Epyon | tommorow I plan to add face subdivision and play around with the Mesh object, adding needed ops for more complex mesh transformations. |
| 01:43.23 | DTRemenak | nifty |
| 01:43.24 | awilcox | Since yesterday, the bzwgen folder has lost EXACTLY 90 lines. |
| 01:43.38 | awilcox | yes, I checked out yesterday and today, ran a diff, and calculated. |
| 01:43.41 | Epyon | awilcox, loool :D |
| 01:43.53 | awilcox | :) |
| 01:44.06 | Epyon | I removed a few huge commented out sections though. |
| 01:44.13 | awilcox | Yes. |
| 01:44.18 | DTRemenak | and yet it probably DOES more...indicating that, once again, LOC is a useless metric |
| 01:44.18 | Epyon | but I guess you count without comments? |
| 01:44.25 | awilcox | Epyon: no, this was a total diff. |
| 01:44.43 | Epyon | awilcox, aaah, no wonder then :) |
| 01:45.02 | awilcox | if you take out the removed comments, it only lost about 30 lines |
| 01:45.15 | awilcox | well, wait |
| 01:45.21 | awilcox | 5*25=100 |
| 01:45.26 | awilcox | it gained about 10 lines then |
| 01:45.31 | Epyon | DTRemenak, to be honest it does EXACTLY the same, but the way it's meant to be (mesh operations instead of cheating xP) |
| 01:45.58 | DTRemenak | ahh... 'tis good to not cheat :) |
| 01:45.58 | Epyon | Tommorow however I'll take advantage of the new tools to add detail. |
| 01:46.43 | awilcox | :) |
| 01:47.48 | Epyon | ... and update the screenshot on the blog xO |
| 01:52.43 | Epyon | I need a 89 key midi keyboard -_- |
| 01:58.15 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright_ (n=chatzill@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 01:58.29 | Epyon | AAA_awright :) |
| 01:58.41 | Epyon | :( |
| 01:58.41 | AAA_awright_ | Hi |
| 02:00.12 | *** join/#bzflag Constitution_ (n=Constitu@24-119-181-149.cpe.cableone.net) |
| 03:14.17 | *** join/#bzflag noyb (n=noyb@192.18.43.225) |
| 03:14.39 | *** join/#bzflag bier_ (n=bier@p54A5247D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
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| 03:26.14 | *** join/#bzflag a_meteorite (n=a_meteor@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001) |
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| 03:49.05 | *** part/#bzflag AAA_awright_ (n=chatzill@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 03:51.00 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright (n=chatzill@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 04:08.32 | L4m3r | AC_MSG_CHECKING([for artificial intelligence for bz's robots]) |
| 04:08.32 | L4m3r | AC_MSG_RESULT([not found]) |
| 04:08.32 | L4m3r | mm, configure.ac easter egg? |
| 04:13.13 | blast007 | ;) |
| 04:18.16 | *** join/#bzflag ybf (n=joel@adsl-71-146-27-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 04:19.35 | *** join/#bzflag jude- (n=jude@c-68-84-206-92.hsd1.ar.comcast.net) |
| 04:20.02 | awilcox | jude- hehe |
| 04:20.25 | jude- | ...that's why I'm here bit late :/ |
| 04:21.30 | blast007 | hello jude- :) |
| 04:21.54 | a_meteorite | ~bigredbutton |
| 04:21.54 | ibot | blast007 l4m3r JeffM brlcad: the list server is down |
| 04:22.02 | delusional_ | you could swap out an engine in that time |
| 04:22.15 | delusional_ | yep, forum down too |
| 04:22.15 | a_meteorite | er |
| 04:22.23 | a_meteorite | yeah |
| 04:22.26 | jude- | get this: in Tucson, there are only 4 AAA battery replacement service vehicles |
| 04:22.40 | awilcox | jude-: hehe |
| 04:22.43 | jude- | ...and one of them makes trips to Sahurita and Green Valley (small cities outside of Tucson) |
| 04:22.53 | jude- | ...which are about a half-hour away |
| 04:23.02 | jude- | ...and in the summer, batteries die left and right |
| 04:23.17 | jude- | (the average life expectancy of a car battery in southern Arizona is 22.5 months :/) |
| 04:23.44 | jude- | so, it was a looooonggg day |
| 04:24.36 | delusional_ | jeez, the whole inteernet seems wonky |
| 04:24.52 | AAA_awright | jude-: How ironic you speak of AAA (not related to my callsign). I have never heard of batteries... Oh. The heat speeds up chemical reactions in the battery. |
| 04:25.13 | jude- | and the water more easily evaporates from them |
| 04:25.59 | AAA_awright | That too. |
| 04:26.00 | jude- | (only 4 trucks wouldn't be so bad...if there were less than 1,000,000 Tusconians!) |
| 04:27.20 | jude- | ~Epyon++ |
| 04:27.35 | jude- | (lots of commits today, I see :) ) |
| 04:27.46 | jude- | ~AAA_awright++ |
| 04:28.25 | AAA_awright | My list server scanner emails me when it fails (can't connect to the list server). Actually, it grabs the list of servers it knows from it's internal list, and scans those if the list server isn't available. |
| 04:28.41 | AAA_awright | Just got one in 7 mins ago... |
| 04:28.55 | jude- | uh oh |
| 04:29.18 | *** join/#bzflag daniel_jackson (n=bsanford@cpe-24-25-198-254.san.res.rr.com) |
| 04:29.20 | AAA_awright | You should be able to see a steep slope in the player use graph: http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/graph.3/allw |
| 04:29.47 | daniel_jackson | hey guys I don't mean to interrupt but the list server is down |
| 04:30.14 | AAA_awright | Yah, meteorite just told everyone |
| 04:30.26 | daniel_jackson | ok |
| 04:30.32 | AAA_awright | (/msg ibot bigredbutton) |
| 04:30.39 | daniel_jackson | lol |
| 04:30.43 | blast007 | fun, a traceroute is showing a routing loop |
| 04:32.08 | delusional_ | MoFo FFA is gaining players, they dont identify, but they know whaere we are |
| 04:32.29 | blast007 | ;) |
| 04:33.29 | blast007 | there's some serious issues with xo.net |
| 04:35.06 | blast007 | just hit 30 hops ;) |
| 04:35.56 | delusional_ | looks like global crossing to me http://www.internetpulse.net/ |
| 04:36.58 | blast007 | well, that's packet loss |
| 04:37.02 | blast007 | might be related |
| 04:37.32 | blast007 | but I'm seeing actual routing loops between multiple routers from xo.net |
| 04:37.37 | AAA_awright | When there is no list server to tell the scanner what servers have no new players, the script has to go through every one and see for itself. |
| 04:37.48 | AAA_awright | blast007: Wish now you has a global operations center? |
| 04:37.59 | blast007 | AAA_awright: what? |
| 04:38.25 | AAA_awright | Server goes down, and red lights start flashing, and a little red blip on a projected world map appears at the break |
| 04:38.39 | blast007 | o.O |
| 04:38.51 | AAA_awright | On the projector screen next to it shows the traceroute and latest weather warnings |
| 04:39.13 | AAA_awright | Then imagine... Fine. |
| 04:40.26 | delusional_ | he's busy |
| 04:40.56 | AAA_awright | Yah. |
| 04:41.25 | delusional_ | watching his gloabal map projection |
| 04:41.47 | blast007 | the two routers I'm seeing the loops go between (or at least the ones that are responding to ICMP expired TTLs) have 4% and 1% packet loss |
| 04:43.22 | L4m3r | is SVN going to throw a temper-tantrum if I add an SVN checkout of libIRC to BZF's source tree? |
| 04:46.34 | purple_cow | I don't think so |
| 04:47.01 | L4m3r | should I delete *\.svn just to be safe? :P |
| 04:47.13 | purple_cow | seems to me you could give it a try first and see what happens =P |
| 04:47.29 | purple_cow | I mean, svn:externals works a lot like that |
| 04:47.32 | L4m3r | gave me a warning |
| 04:47.54 | purple_cow | one thing you could do is set an un-committed svn:externals property |
| 04:49.40 | AAA_awright | Check out the dip in players: http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/graph.3/allw |
| 04:49.58 | AAA_awright | Let me see if I can get an overlay of a typical day... |
| 04:52.16 | AAA_awright | 4th email now. |
| 04:52.24 | AAA_awright | No pressure. |
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| 04:56.37 | *** part/#bzflag lan56 (n=lan56@adsl-75-4-224-113.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:05.16 | *** join/#bzflag john (n=john@203-114-173-18.eth.sta.inspire.net.nz) |
| 05:09.35 | JeffM | AAA_awright, please ease up on your list server zelotry, it goes up, it goes down, welcome to the internet. rather then running around like a chicken with no head when it happens, why not work on the solution of creating a redundant server system? |
| 05:09.50 | AAA_awright | I kinda already have |
| 05:10.04 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03l4m3rthanyou * r14750 10/branches/gsoc_irc/bzflag/src/other/ (51 files in 9 dirs): Adding libIRC to the build system. Modifications of src/other/makefile.am and configure.ac are slightly hackish. libIRC is untouched, including examples. Cheers. |
| 05:10.04 | JeffM | kinda? |
| 05:10.22 | L4m3r | er |
| 05:10.22 | AAA_awright | I can serve it up list-server formatted too, give me a minute |
| 05:10.24 | AAA_awright | http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/serverlist |
| 05:10.24 | JeffM | all I've seen you do is submit a patch that was poorly explained |
| 05:10.34 | JeffM | that is not working WITH people |
| 05:10.37 | L4m3r | turd- it seems to have missed some files there |
| 05:10.51 | JeffM | a stats page is not a redunant list system |
| 05:11.11 | JeffM | you seem to like going off by yourself making "prety" things and then coming back |
| 05:11.36 | JeffM | rather then working with the core coding problems of making a truly distributed system |
| 05:11.56 | AAA_awright | JeffM: I keep the server configuration line, description, IP, player counts, ect... all the info needed to provide a working copy |
| 05:12.06 | JeffM | that does not solve the problem |
| 05:12.16 | JeffM | the local clients do that in cache |
| 05:12.23 | JeffM | we NEED a redundant system |
| 05:12.30 | JeffM | not a prety page |
| 05:12.37 | L4m3r | oh. DUR. |
| 05:12.39 | JeffM | HTML will not solve it |
| 05:12.48 | L4m3r | need to move up a few levels for that commit |
| 05:13.55 | JeffM | and if anything, your antics of late have only served to make people ignore you |
| 05:14.12 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03l4m3rthanyou * r14751 10/branches/gsoc_irc/bzflag/ (configure.ac src/bzfs/CmdLineOptions.h): whoops, did that last commit from the wrong directory and missed a couple of files as a result. |
| 05:14.29 | AAA_awright | JeffM: As in, I keep all that stuff in a MySQL database that can be served up in a plain-text file |
| 05:14.44 | JeffM | AAA_awright, that is still just a cache |
| 05:14.54 | JeffM | that does not SOLVE the problem |
| 05:15.04 | JeffM | it does not provide a dynamic redundant system |
| 05:15.22 | JeffM | the local machines keep a copy and can use it when the list is down, that dosn't let anything auth or keep real data |
| 05:15.39 | JeffM | your trying to force the solution with only the things you know |
| 05:15.45 | L4m3r | wahoo, IRC branch should build now... of course, the IRC stuff isn't "hooked up" so it won't do much :P |
| 05:15.52 | AAA_awright | Mine is up to date +-10 mins |
| 05:16.03 | JeffM | work WITH people to design a better system |
| 05:16.04 | AAA_awright | (- I hope :p) |
| 05:16.07 | JeffM | AAA_awright, only when the list is up |
| 05:16.13 | JeffM | when it's down, it's older and older |
| 05:16.19 | JeffM | it's not a solution |
| 05:16.25 | JeffM | but you don't seem to see that |
| 05:16.31 | AAA_awright | JeffM: Mine also takes down servers that go down, even when the list server goes down |
| 05:16.42 | JeffM | but it dosnt' add new ones |
| 05:16.43 | AAA_awright | If a server went off right now it would detect that and take it off the list |
| 05:16.45 | JeffM | and it dosn't do auth |
| 05:17.05 | JeffM | it also dosn't help any existing clients |
| 05:17.30 | AAA_awright | JeffM: My point is a person could type bzflag -listwhatever http://my-url right now and they would get a list of working servers, all ones they can connect to. |
| 05:17.48 | JeffM | AAA_awright, it's not reasonable to expect people to do that |
| 05:17.54 | JeffM | we'd have to build up a notification system |
| 05:18.02 | JeffM | it's BETTER to fix the problems |
| 05:18.20 | JeffM | but all you want to do is make everyone look away from the actual problem |
| 05:19.01 | JeffM | I mean your page looks nice and all, but why not spend the time fixing something instead of just making a copy? |
| 05:19.39 | AAA_awright | The only way I could do that *right now* is if you changed the IP for db.bzflag.org to constitutions server (that /is/ the url current bzflag clients use I believe) |
| 05:19.54 | JeffM | AAA_awright, or design a better system |
| 05:20.02 | JeffM | that does say a round robin DNS |
| 05:20.02 | L4m3r | Instead of making replacements for stuff we already have, most people prefer direct work on existing community resources |
| 05:20.25 | JeffM | and it's not about what you can do allone, it's what everyone can do |
| 05:20.29 | AAA_awright | Invite me in then. |
| 05:20.55 | JeffM | we've discussed it a number of times |
| 05:21.13 | L4m3r | Do something worth adding, and you pretty much are. It's not that difficult to contribute to bzflag. |
| 05:21.15 | JeffM | I don't recall you as a big part of those discussions |
| 05:21.28 | JeffM | and you can start more discussions about them if you wan |
| 05:21.29 | JeffM | want |
| 05:21.50 | JeffM | have you talked to the people working on ldap? |
| 05:22.37 | JeffM | I mean even with your last list server patch, we basicly had to PRY info about the patch out of you, all you did was comment that noone looks at patches |
| 05:22.56 | JeffM | and then tried to force some mythical set of "devs" to go and review all the patches |
| 05:23.10 | JeffM | I'm not quite sure your aware of how bzflag development works |
| 05:24.30 | JeffM | I mean you seem to have a lot of intrest in the list server system |
| 05:24.32 | JeffM | that's great |
| 05:24.35 | JeffM | few have that |
| 05:24.54 | JeffM | but you should be discussing and working with the others who run/update/maintain that system |
| 05:24.56 | *** join/#bzflag tofu (n=sean@pdpc/supporter/silver/brlcad) |
| 05:24.56 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o tofu] by ChanServ |
| 05:25.01 | JeffM | brclad, blast007 , and tim |
| 05:25.03 | *** join/#bzflag tofu (n=sean@barley.cs.jhu.edu) |
| 05:25.22 | tofu | ~ping sagonet.com |
| 05:25.23 | ibot | pong sagonet.com |
| 05:25.33 | tofu | ~ping bzflag.bz |
| 05:25.34 | ibot | pong bzflag.bz |
| 05:25.55 | tofu | ~bzflist |
| 05:26.02 | jude- | ? |
| 05:26.10 | jude- | nm that ? |
| 05:26.20 | tofu | some routing problem |
| 05:26.28 | JeffM | that is what the blast found |
| 05:26.46 | jude- | I mean, ignore that "?" |
| 05:27.30 | tofu | I can't get to the backup server reliably either coincidentally |
| 05:27.49 | JeffM | did the interwebs poop? |
| 05:27.55 | JeffM | clogs in the pipes |
| 05:28.40 | tofu | something like that |
| 05:29.14 | JeffM | ahh the tube between globalX and NTT |
| 05:29.52 | *** join/#bzflag biggeruniverse (n=biggerun@adsl-68-90-161-137.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net) |
| 05:29.58 | biggeruniverse | what up |
| 05:30.00 | AAA_awright | Does this look familiar? http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/listserver |
| 05:30.13 | JeffM | AAA_awright, you don't get it |
| 05:30.23 | biggeruniverse | did someone hack the forums? |
| 05:30.27 | JeffM | I don't know why I even bothers |
| 05:30.29 | AAA_awright | JeffM: I do get it |
| 05:30.31 | JeffM | biggeruniverse, god no |
| 05:30.32 | AAA_awright | Wait |
| 05:30.43 | AAA_awright | That project was not what you asked. |
| 05:30.44 | JeffM | biggeruniverse, interweb trouble |
| 05:30.56 | JeffM | AAA_awright, no it wasn't, you haven't heard a thing I've said |
| 05:31.02 | JeffM | and that's the big problem with you |
| 05:31.18 | biggeruniverse | ok |
| 05:31.26 | JeffM | your on your track, and damned be anyone that tries to even mention anything else |
| 05:31.31 | biggeruniverse | I got ghosted by someone with the correct password |
| 05:31.32 | AAA_awright | I did it just for fun. What you wanted was someone to create a redundant system so if one server goes down another server can do the exact same job. For obvious reasons I can't work on that now. |
| 05:31.48 | JeffM | AAA_awright, no it's not obvious |
| 05:31.54 | AAA_awright | Sorry then. |
| 05:31.58 | JeffM | you have the time to make lame stuff like "bigredbutton" |
| 05:32.09 | JeffM | and to push this solution |
| 05:32.57 | JeffM | and I dont' want "someone" to make it, I want a bunch of people to work TOGETHER at making it |
| 05:33.44 | JeffM | I never expected a single person to just come and magicaly hand out a fully functional, tested, perfect soltuion |
| 05:33.54 | JeffM | it will take time and effort of a number of people |
| 05:34.48 | AAA_awright | There isn't too much to making a redundant system, we have a fairly good system with SVN right now (so we can sync PHP content across servers), the biggest single other part is a MySQL load balancer. And some way to sync the databases when one comes back online, if the balancer doesn't do that already. |
| 05:35.07 | JeffM | yeah, your on your own track |
| 05:35.13 | JeffM | we don't want to use SQL |
| 05:35.20 | AAA_awright | ... |
| 05:35.35 | JeffM | we want to look into TRUELY distributed user and list management systems |
| 05:35.39 | AAA_awright | Use what then, a flat file DB? |
| 05:35.40 | JeffM | it dosn't have to be php |
| 05:35.42 | JeffM | nope |
| 05:35.44 | JeffM | ldap |
| 05:35.56 | JeffM | it dosnt' even have to be web based |
| 05:36.15 | JeffM | I mean web database based |
| 05:36.21 | biggeruniverse | sneakernet! |
| 05:36.37 | JeffM | for legacy reasons it has to at least take an HTTP request for current clients |
| 05:36.48 | JeffM | we are open to FULL redesigns |
| 05:36.49 | jude- | slightly off-topic, but does anyone know why BZW 2.x transformations like "shear" and "spin" send objects airborn or embed them in the ground as if they had been translated? |
| 05:37.07 | JeffM | jude-, probably the order of the operations |
| 05:37.08 | jude- | ...in addition to performing the desired operation? |
| 05:37.09 | AAA_awright | HTTP is the single most efficient protocol. That could mean a custom written C httpd. A commercial SQL database is also the single most efficent way to manage /server records/ (not users necessarily), and MySQL is perfect for that sort of stuff. |
| 05:37.24 | jude- | JeffM: i.e. spin 90 1 0 0 will send a BZW 2.x object about 15 units into the air |
| 05:37.27 | JeffM | they just build up a matrix, so it'll use some orign for the transform ( probably world origin ) |
| 05:37.29 | AAA_awright | By protocol, I mean for our purposes. |
| 05:37.37 | jude- | even if it's the oly transformation |
| 05:37.38 | jude- | *only |
| 05:37.46 | jude- | world origin |
| 05:37.47 | JeffM | AAA_awright, what makes it "efficent"? |
| 05:37.48 | jude- | got it :) |
| 05:38.22 | JeffM | jude-, yeah I think it just applies it to ALL the vert numbers raw |
| 05:38.36 | purple_cow | what happens if "spin" happens before "transform"? |
| 05:38.46 | jude- | "transform" isn't a keyword |
| 05:38.50 | JeffM | AAA_awright, you need to be able to explain why those statements are true over other systems like ldap |
| 05:38.54 | purple_cow | you know what I mean |
| 05:39.02 | biggeruniverse | I love ldap |
| 05:39.03 | AAA_awright | JeffM: the hundreds of absolutely brilliant people who work on the file system (I am mainly talking about MyISAM here), optimizer, ect. |
| 05:39.16 | JeffM | your not answering the question |
| 05:39.22 | AAA_awright | Okay, dozend or so "core" people |
| 05:39.30 | JeffM | your just saying "well a lot of people use it for other stuff, and I like it" |
| 05:39.54 | JeffM | do you even know how LDAP works? |
| 05:40.08 | AAA_awright | JeffM: A commercial database is more efficient then anyone's own code could ever hope to be. |
| 05:40.35 | JeffM | AAA_awright, you need to be able to prove that |
| 05:40.41 | JeffM | for OUR uses |
| 05:40.42 | tofu | AAA_awright, it's not a matter of whether it's possible or not with approach XYZ, there are probably a dozen perfectly "fine" ways it can be done that fulfill all the criteria, why it *shouldn't* be solution ABC that's already been heavily discussed and se |
| 05:40.55 | tofu | bah, old irc client |
| 05:41.00 | biggeruniverse | Well, 'ldap' isn't really an implementation anyway, you'd still need like 'OpenLDAP' or 'eDir' or even 'AD' |
| 05:41.22 | JeffM | AAA_awright, your on your path again, I'm done trying to show you that there MAY be other solutions, but you continue your zelots path |
| 05:41.36 | JeffM | just please stop anoying people with it |
| 05:41.39 | JeffM | have a good night everyone |
| 05:41.47 | Winny | night? |
| 05:41.48 | tofu | ... already been heavily discussed and semi-agreed upon as "the plan" is where the issue is at (as well as actually doing the work) |
| 05:41.51 | biggeruniverse | and by zelots he means zealots. so there |
| 05:41.52 | Winny | its only 1:30 |
| 05:42.22 | AAA_awright | There is plenty of "proof" about commercial databases available for finding on Google. |
| 05:42.47 | biggeruniverse | dude, he's not here |
| 05:43.05 | AAA_awright | Other developers: |
| 05:43.17 | purple_cow | what about commercial databases? |
| 05:43.41 | tofu | brazil is one fscked up movie |
| 05:43.50 | purple_cow | one awesome fscked up movie |
| 05:43.54 | AAA_awright | LDAP I know has record storage, but it really isn't that much better at accessing records then your own file system. If all you are doing is /user/callsign/tokenwhatever then that is okay. Anything more and you want a system that can look it up /efficiently/. |
| 05:44.36 | tofu | it's not being used for anything more than .. as a directory service |
| 05:44.47 | purple_cow | wait wait |
| 05:44.51 | purple_cow | what problem is being solved here? |
| 05:44.57 | AAA_awright | Nay, we are using private messages, servers, histories, ect. |
| 05:45.12 | a_meteorite | well, callsign/password look ups are done a lot more than signing up |
| 05:45.49 | AAA_awright | If you want to keep logs of data about a server, and recall certain parts, grep will do you fine, but it is ONE THOUSAND times more efficient to use a database. |
| 05:46.01 | jude- | got it: encapsulate all other transformations by shift -x -y -z and shift x y z, where (x,y,z) is defined by "position" |
| 05:46.08 | tofu | you're already talking about something drasticly different |
| 05:46.16 | tofu | new services for that matter |
| 05:46.28 | jude- | thanks JeffM :) |
| 05:46.33 | AAA_awright | *headdesk* We already use MySQL! |
| 05:46.35 | tofu | which is probably why you ticked off jeff -- you're talking past him |
| 05:46.40 | biggeruniverse | dude, he's not here |
| 05:46.45 | AAA_awright | I know! |
| 05:46.48 | jude- | doh! |
| 05:47.00 | tofu | talking past people is not his fault, it's yours |
| 05:47.05 | Macrosoft | jude-: jeff no esta aqui |
| 05:47.10 | tofu | at least if you expect him (or anyone else) to listen |
| 05:47.24 | AAA_awright | Using LDAP for storing servers? Are the developers crazy? |
| 05:47.30 | tofu | the problem that we're talking about solving is list services and global authentication services |
| 05:47.40 | biggeruniverse | LDAP is perfect |
| 05:47.57 | AAA_awright | biggeruniverse: the BZFlag client and server can't handle passwords irectly, so no |
| 05:48.14 | AAA_awright | Using LDAP back-end only, yes, because so many services support it |
| 05:48.54 | tofu | you're not being entirely coherent |
| 05:49.14 | tofu | or perhaps misunderstand what has been talked about in the past |
| 05:49.26 | tofu | neither the client nor the server are going to be talking to ldap |
| 05:49.39 | AAA_awright | I knew that. |
| 05:49.40 | biggeruniverse | AAA_awright, so store the hashed version in the directory (!) |
| 05:50.10 | AAA_awright | biggeruniverse: servers and clients can't handle hashes, either. |
| 05:50.13 | tofu | ldap is just a directory, a directory of authentication entities (users and servers, and possibly networks, locations, groups) |
| 05:50.16 | biggeruniverse | uhhh |
| 05:50.45 | AAA_awright | The server gets sent a one-time-use token that proves the user logged into my.bzflag.org |
| 05:50.55 | AAA_awright | The server never sees any hash or password |
| 05:50.58 | biggeruniverse | Actually, if I was going to propose something, it would be that every server has an LDAP tree copy, and can do authentication. That fixes the problem of distribution |
| 05:52.54 | AAA_awright | The problem we have goes as sugh: |
| 05:53.20 | tofu | what has been talked about with a daemon neither adds or removes really any complexity (unless you consider moving from phpbb to ldap on the backend as more or less complexity) |
| 05:53.29 | AAA_awright | The server can never see a password or password hash that the owner could use to authenticate himself with someone else's password |
| 05:54.04 | AAA_awright | We also need a system that multiple services can use, like a website, forum, logging into a server, and the wiki. |
| 05:54.28 | biggeruniverse | I vote ldap |
| 05:54.47 | L4m3r | our own hosted services (forums, wiki, etc) can talk to ldap |
| 05:54.55 | AAA_awright | Also, we need a way so external websites can verify a BZFlag user without the website seeing the password. |
| 05:54.57 | tofu | other than maybe the enhancements so that there's an in-game management interface, we're not talking about really changing the ways users auth, or how tokens are passed around |
| 05:55.25 | L4m3r | external stuff like websites and BZFS can use the same token system that we already have. LDAP is intended as a *backend*. |
| 05:55.31 | AAA_awright | And it needs to be done so 100 logins a second won't bring down a server. |
| 05:55.55 | AAA_awright | L4m3r: My support goes to that idea |
| 05:56.21 | *** join/#bzflag Constitution (n=Constitu@gateway.pct.civiltec.com) |
| 05:56.27 | L4m3r | okay, do you want a ribbon or something? as far as I can tell that is the general understanding of the game devs |
| 05:56.32 | tofu | AAA_awright, external websites getting access is a consideration, but also *way* down on the totem pole of priorities towards the design -- getting our servers/services unified is one of the goals |
| 05:56.39 | tofu | a single user database that lets you log in to any of them |
| 05:56.41 | AAA_awright | Constitution: list server down, check out the player use graph: http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/graph.3/allw |
| 05:56.51 | biggeruniverse | if bzflag ever got 100 logins a second, I'd wonder what happened to WoW... |
| 05:56.52 | tofu | ldap provides that without having to make mods to all the various services |
| 05:57.00 | Constitution | AAA_awright: wow |
| 05:57.03 | AAA_awright | btw, about 90 of those players are bots |
| 05:57.04 | L4m3r | hahahaha |
| 05:58.16 | tofu | i suppose I could rename since .bz already disconnected |
| 05:58.28 | Constitution | AAA_awright: too bad you were "crying 'wolf!'" with the big red button earlier... could've used it now :-P |
| 05:58.40 | AAA_awright | meteorite did |
| 05:58.46 | AAA_awright | Now, I desperately need peer-review of this document: http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/specs/listserver-upgrade.html |
| 05:59.17 | AAA_awright | It *is* a separate proposal then what BZFlag is planning on doing officially. |
| 05:59.40 | Constitution | AAA_awright: degisnifies -> designates :-) |
| 06:00.44 | *** join/#bzflag EbErT (n=EbErT@adsl-34-34-229.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 06:00.45 | Constitution | I think, anyway |
| 06:01.05 | brlcad | AAA_awright, what does Minimal HTTP have to do with the upgrade? |
| 06:01.17 | AAA_awright | Requesting the list of servers |
| 06:01.17 | Macrosoft | AAA_awright: i noticed that you used "will" instead of could. already counting it as a victory? |
| 06:01.18 | brlcad | "used to query the list of servers" |
| 06:01.21 | brlcad | what does that mean? |
| 06:01.54 | AAA_awright | action=LIST. Unless I am completely missing your question... |
| 06:02.26 | brlcad | either you're missing my question, or I'm missing what you're trying to say |
| 06:02.34 | L4m3r | From what I've seen, the project rarely officially "plans" to do anything. Of course, this should not be misinterpreted as not EVER wanting to do something |
| 06:02.53 | brlcad | as I see it, we plan all the time |
| 06:03.01 | brlcad | it's just none of the plans are ever set in stone |
| 06:03.14 | L4m3r | just that most pre-conceived features and changes are on a "this would be nice when someone gets around to it" basis |
| 06:03.18 | brlcad | and you can plan all you like, but it boils down to the folks that are actively contributing |
| 06:03.26 | Constitution | speaking of doing things, are the patches on sourceforge going to be getting a look-over any time soon? |
| 06:03.32 | *** join/#bzflag biggeruniverse (n=biggerun@adsl-68-90-161-137.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net) |
| 06:03.36 | AAA_awright | I doubt a standard listserver format was designed without planning. |
| 06:03.43 | biggeruniverse | can we talk about something else for a second? |
| 06:03.53 | AAA_awright | What? |
| 06:04.21 | biggeruniverse | the sequence of events that leads to ghosting |
| 06:04.25 | biggeruniverse | in bzfs |
| 06:04.26 | brlcad | Constitution, they get looked at when folks get an itch to look at them, or the devs that make the patches are "sufficiently cooperative" to put the effort in to get them accepted |
| 06:04.55 | biggeruniverse | I personally am "insufficiently cooperative" :P |
| 06:05.06 | AAA_awright | biggeruniverse: You mean if I enter a server as "AAA" with the correct password and another "AAA" exists in there? |
| 06:05.14 | biggeruniverse | yeah |
| 06:05.35 | AAA_awright | It's useful. What else is there to talk about? |
| 06:05.36 | Constitution | brlcad: thanks. I enjoy working on and submitting them (have submitted three recently), but would like to make sure my work is in line before I go off entirely in the wrong direction :-) |
| 06:05.39 | biggeruniverse | the other AAA currently gets kicked, without bothering to validate if that AAA was also verified |
| 06:05.41 | brlcad | AAA_awright, I read "listserver recommendation" and think of the things that you're saying from the back-end perspective (as the list server is predominantly a back-end service) |
| 06:06.04 | L4m3r | biggeruniverse: what would you suggest as an alternative? |
| 06:06.09 | AAA_awright | biggeruniverse: That is a good thing, If I have a bzadmin client running and I want to take it over with a 3D bzflag client. |
| 06:06.27 | biggeruniverse | at least check if the already playing user is verified and send up big red flags |
| 06:06.33 | brlcad | Constitution, I'd suggest hanging out more on the channel, and discuss it with a few of the devs -- get someone to look at it with you some time (and possibly change the submission so that it's really easy to look at) |
| 06:07.01 | brlcad | folks that do that well enough and are easily trusted are generally given commit access really quick |
| 06:07.09 | biggeruniverse | AAA_awright, what if a hacker gets your password? is it still a good thing? |
| 06:07.35 | AAA_awright | biggeruniverse: If a hacker gets your password you have bigger things to worry about |
| 06:07.37 | delusional_ | It's back |
| 06:07.37 | Constitution | brlcad: "changing the submission so that it's easy to look at"... is that in general, or with regard to my specific patches? |
| 06:07.40 | *** join/#bzflag Saber_ (n=Saber___@modemcable152.168-81-70.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 06:07.53 | brlcad | that goes for just about any patch |
| 06:08.17 | Constitution | okay |
| 06:08.23 | biggeruniverse | AAA_awright, you miss the point |
| 06:08.43 | AAA_awright | . |
| 06:08.49 | biggeruniverse | the current code is naive- very naive |
| 06:09.01 | AAA_awright | 80% of the time for me, I want to ghost my username. |
| 06:09.27 | brlcad | I'd much more prefer to review three relatively straightforward brief patches and interact with a dev that is easy to get along with and shows that they are willing to follow the core development issues without causing disruption, understand the pet peaves |
| 06:09.30 | biggeruniverse | then there should be a /ghost command, no auto-ghosting |
| 06:09.38 | AAA_awright | There /was/... |
| 06:09.48 | biggeruniverse | I know |
| 06:09.59 | AAA_awright | The other 20% I didn't realize I had another client running on that server, which if that is what you want to fix then great |
| 06:09.59 | L4m3r | how is it naive? there are many perfectly legitimate uses for ghosting. It's not that bzfs is too dumb to assume that the first player wasn't verified. it just *doesn't care* |
| 06:10.28 | *** join/#bzflag Winny (n=BZ_Win_@CPE0016b6de59f3-CM000f9fac8236.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 06:10.30 | biggeruniverse | and there are also illegitimate reasons for ghosting |
| 06:10.32 | L4m3r | for most cases, auto-ghosting is the easiest and smoothest transition from the player's perspective |
| 06:10.43 | AAA_awright | Exactly |
| 06:10.53 | brlcad | ghost was only removed because it only had to do with local auth iirc |
| 06:11.16 | DTRemenak | ghosting is not a tool for recovering from "having you passwrod hacked", whatever that means. it's a tool for getting your callsign back when you were unexpectedly disconnected. |
| 06:11.42 | L4m3r | Problematic uses are a minority, and frankly if you get ghosted, get the hell out of the game and change your pass :P |
| 06:11.55 | Macrosoft | ...and it gets rid of those pesky masqueraders |
| 06:11.57 | DTRemenak | and it's convenient for recovering an unoriginal callsign which is being used by an unregistered user |
| 06:12.16 | biggeruniverse | that's ok |
| 06:12.21 | brlcad | AAA_awright, I'm still stuck on paragraph 2 -- are you intending to query every live server whenever a LIST is requested or something? |
| 06:12.39 | AAA_awright | No, let me see what you mean though |
| 06:12.39 | biggeruniverse | DTRemenak, that's not what I was talking about |
| 06:12.42 | brlcad | where would minimal run? on the list server? part of bzfs? |
| 06:12.42 | DTRemenak | and the only way you can use it is if you can properly identify. if you can properly identify, you are who you say you are. |
| 06:12.55 | biggeruniverse | or you have their password |
| 06:13.04 | DTRemenak | which is the SAME THING from our perspective |
| 06:13.12 | biggeruniverse | and if it isn't? |
| 06:13.14 | DTRemenak | if someone has your password, CHANGE it |
| 06:13.14 | Macrosoft | list server is up |
| 06:13.14 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Are you refering to "minimal HTTP"? |
| 06:13.23 | brlcad | ~bzflist |
| 06:13.28 | brlcad | yes |
| 06:13.38 | biggeruniverse | I'm hearing about an exploit in the windows client |
| 06:13.48 | DTRemenak | biggeruniverse: an identified user is by definition identified as themselves. we have exactly one way of knowing if you are who you say you are - if you know the password. |
| 06:13.49 | biggeruniverse | would changing the password fix that? |
| 06:14.14 | DTRemenak | if there's an exploit, then the problem is the EXPLOIT, not ghosting |
| 06:14.47 | DTRemenak | let's not run around fighting ghosts (forgive the pun :) ) |
| 06:14.57 | biggeruniverse | Why do I always run up against brick walls? Do I come across as pushy or something? |
| 06:14.58 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Most web browsers send more headers then the web server needs. Minimal HTTP refers to the minimum set of headers you need to make a request, I will clarify that in the document right now |
| 06:15.10 | *** join/#bzflag tofu (n=sean@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 06:15.26 | DTRemenak | no, you just approach things the wrong way. if you're hearing about an exploit, please give us information so that we can fix the exploit (that is, the problem) |
| 06:15.50 | DTRemenak | don't complain about a feature that's working exactly as desired, because it can be abused by some other bug |
| 06:15.57 | biggeruniverse | no, I am looking at the server code, and it looks naive to me |
| 06:16.07 | AAA_awright | brlcad: That is, some web servers require some headers which in the HTTP spec are optional (like a Cookie or... somthing). Since the list server and bzflag client were made together we can reduce the number of headers needed to a very small amount (one line) |
| 06:16.11 | DTRemenak | it is. intentionally. if you are identified, you are who you say you are. |
| 06:16.24 | brlcad | thank goodness.. 'irc' is so painful to use |
| 06:16.44 | DTRemenak | if there's a way to be identified without the password, we need to know about it. if there's a way to get people's passwords, we need to know about that even more. |
| 06:17.28 | DTRemenak | think about it this way: if autoghost can be abused, why couldn't manual ghost be abused? |
| 06:17.33 | biggeruniverse | but who would exploit a bug if the server didn't let you take a registered, verified player's spot? |
| 06:17.50 | L4m3r | that's retarded. |
| 06:17.57 | biggeruniverse | thanks |
| 06:18.04 | biggeruniverse | thanks. real useful of you |
| 06:18.14 | L4m3r | If you weren't able to ghost at all, it would have a severe detrimental impact on gameplay. |
| 06:18.22 | biggeruniverse | yeah |
| 06:18.30 | biggeruniverse | I need to ghost like every time I play |
| 06:18.42 | biggeruniverse | how detrimental |
| 06:19.36 | biggeruniverse | making abusers jump through more hoops is never bad |
| 06:19.44 | L4m3r | sure it is |
| 06:19.59 | DTRemenak | making abuse impossible is good. making real users NOT have to jump through hoops is good. |
| 06:20.51 | biggeruniverse | which is better? |
| 06:20.56 | L4m3r | Right now, ghosting is used legitimately a helluvalot more often than it's used maliciously, even for verified players. In other words, removing ghosting would cause more harm than leaving it as it is. |
| 06:21.08 | brlcad | biggeruniverse: then provide a patch, but calling it naive is a pretty useless by itelsef |
| 06:21.12 | biggeruniverse | did I say remove ghosting? |
| 06:21.23 | biggeruniverse | I have a patch- I call it bzfs2 |
| 06:21.33 | brlcad | *sigh* |
| 06:21.40 | biggeruniverse | hey, it's in there |
| 06:21.49 | L4m3r | you seem to hint that you should not be able to ghost verified players |
| 06:22.13 | biggeruniverse | it shouldn't be so easy to ghost verified players |
| 06:22.15 | brlcad | and I have told you at least two times now how to go about getting those changes in properly |
| 06:22.27 | L4m3r | anything less would make little, if any, difference- as DTR said, stopping to use /ghost is hardly an impediment to someone who's trying to ruin your day |
| 06:22.28 | DTRemenak | biggeruniverse: sure it should, if you're verified |
| 06:22.35 | AAA_awright | I don't recall receiving a message when you ghost someone else... That does happen though? |
| 06:22.58 | biggeruniverse | brlcad, I'm not so interested in that part really. |
| 06:23.07 | brlcad | which is the fundamental problem |
| 06:23.10 | brlcad | so you're just ranting |
| 06:23.26 | Macrosoft|fizz | [SERVER]: you were ghosted by "ghostbusters" |
| 06:23.47 | biggeruniverse | With the kind of trouble I run into trying to justify things (this conversation is a good case), I don't bother with wasting the time to go about all that. If you like the code use it. If not, oh well. |
| 06:24.19 | brlcad | there is no point in alienating everyone who has contributed and knows the code (for better and worse) on faith alone to a completely different codebase that has no trackrecord (among many other practical issues) |
| 06:25.05 | brlcad | that's your perrogative as well |
| 06:25.06 | L4m3r | so, basically this entire conversation boils down to "~pw" and "stop whining if you're just going to rant and troll the channel instead of saying something useful" |
| 06:25.27 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r14752 10/trunk/bzflag/ (include/bzfsAPI.h src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx): Apply patch 1765824 from macsforme - API function to return poll status |
| 06:26.42 | biggeruniverse | unfortunately, all I ever get is "stop whining" |
| 06:26.42 | Constitution | yay! |
| 06:27.07 | brlcad | if you don't want to work with anyone on your changes, that's fine, just don't rant in here about it when there IS an established way to get changes made both major and minor |
| 06:27.08 | biggeruniverse | 5 months of working out a new server, and I get "stop whining" |
| 06:27.19 | biggeruniverse | I never said I wouldn't work with anyone. |
| 06:27.21 | brlcad | you just don't like that way |
| 06:27.24 | a_meteorite | he works with me |
| 06:27.28 | brlcad | yes you have, you've said that a couple times |
| 06:27.30 | a_meteorite | oh, wrong person |
| 06:27.39 | biggeruniverse | uhhh |
| 06:27.44 | a_meteorite | one minute AAA the next someone else :) |
| 06:28.07 | biggeruniverse | have talked long about how to go about integrating such extensive changes |
| 06:28.08 | brlcad | explaining, justifying, discussing in detail is part of the way |
| 06:28.41 | biggeruniverse | "discussing" is a bunch of people saying "why change? the old way has always worked!" |
| 06:28.51 | brlcad | not just "svn commit", which is what your "work with" sounds like it boils down to |
| 06:30.39 | brlcad | as far as I've seen, the only discussion has been on the broad level topics and mostly on you trying to justify why a wholesale switch is the way to go |
| 06:31.13 | biggeruniverse | um |
| 06:31.30 | brlcad | it really needs to be refactored incrementally, even towards drastic changes |
| 06:31.37 | AAA_awright | Look at the graph rebounding: http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/index.php/graph.3/allw neat? |
| 06:32.47 | L4m3r | Let's look at tonight's conversation as an example. Because your password was somehow compromised, you insist that it should be "more difficult" to ghost verified players, regardless of the fact that this would not be beneficial in most situations. |
| 06:33.06 | L4m3r | But that seems irrelevant in your eyes- you feel that it should be done your way. |
| 06:33.07 | brlcad | biggeruniverse: most of the core devs are quite open to changes, that doesn't make the question of "why" any less relevant towards understanding a new design/approach -- we all know there are limitations, both with old and new |
| 06:34.35 | L4m3r | Similarly, when making changes, the existing developer base should be taken into consideration. There really isn't a compelling reason to adapt a complete rewrite, especially when you consider that the devs would have to start over at square one as far as codebase knowledge is concerned. |
| 06:34.36 | brlcad | if that discussion isn't worth your time, or you're not willing to work with folks that already have commit access, then so be it .. both our loss imho |
| 06:34.53 | DTRemenak | y'know what we'd really appreciate in this situation, is if someone would find out whether or not there is an exploit available, and some technical details, so we could patch that...rather than telling us that a feature is a bug, just because it can be abused by someone who's already got your entire tusted identity compromised. do you just not realize how silly that sounds? |
| 06:35.31 | biggeruniverse | Well, I've gone on developing it to the point where the client has changed, so I basically decided to leave the code I posted out there for ideas or whatever, and just go on. I'm not going to wait for the committee. My personal view is that once in a while a whole project needs to be rewritten from scratch. |
| 06:35.47 | biggeruniverse | Different things sound silly to different people |
| 06:35.50 | DTRemenak | best of luck to you then |
| 06:36.16 | L4m3r | ironically, tonight's near-pissing contest is a nice analogy to this whole rewrite fiasco |
| 06:36.18 | brlcad | there is no freaking committee, just you not wanting to be social and collaborative beyond your own personal goals |
| 06:36.37 | biggeruniverse | yes. what are my personal goals again? |
| 06:36.49 | biggeruniverse | perhaps they are fame and fortune. those sound good. |
| 06:37.21 | brlcad | whatever floats your boat |
| 06:37.28 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Updated the first part for clarity, and added an opinion/observation (as opposed to the rest of the document which is opinion supported with fact...) http://bzflag.redjacket.ws/specs/listserver-upgrade.html |
| 06:37.50 | biggeruniverse | you may re-have the floor, AAA |
| 06:37.53 | L4m3r | basically, rather than trying to help fix what's broken in a socially-acceptible manner, you insist on going out on your own, making a bunch of unilateral declarations about how things "should" be, and complain when the people who are actually in charge of the project don't go for it |
| 06:38.21 | biggeruniverse | hmm close, but no |
| 06:38.46 | DTRemenak | it's not about "social acceptability," L4m3r. it's about rational thinking. Maybe he's a troll (but I doubt it). Maybe he just has a really different perspective than the rest of us. |
| 06:39.00 | biggeruniverse | I have been hip to making incremental changes (apparently to the yet nonexistent 3.0), and working with someone when they had the time |
| 06:39.23 | brlcad | if you're hip to that, then what's the issue? |
| 06:39.31 | biggeruniverse | I am still waiting for a branch or something- that was never made clear since different people said different things |
| 06:39.45 | biggeruniverse | yeah, what *is* the issue exactly? |
| 06:40.01 | brlcad | you tell me, you're the one that brought the soapbox :) |
| 06:40.08 | biggeruniverse | gah! |
| 06:40.22 | biggeruniverse | that's how our conversation on branches went last time! |
| 06:40.28 | L4m3r | DTRemenak: "socially-acceptible" is perhaps too vague, I meant more along the lines of "in a way that is practical for a collaboratively-developed project" |
| 06:41.25 | brlcad | biggeruniverse: well a better question then perhaps would be whether you'd have issue with explaining the increments and possibly having some of them turned away |
| 06:41.56 | brlcad | ? |
| 06:42.47 | brlcad | i.e. actually colloborating as you increment, not just piecewise committing what you have sitting in your lap |
| 06:43.32 | brlcad | and that's an honest question, because if you have issue with having pieces of it rejected, then it's a non-starter; if it's something you're willing to accept, then we can take the next steps |
| 06:43.42 | biggeruniverse | I never said I would be against that, what I said was some of the changes are drastic |
| 06:43.51 | biggeruniverse | and can't be incremented |
| 06:44.06 | brlcad | now that I don't believe :) |
| 06:44.26 | biggeruniverse | bzfs2 uses entirely different paradigms for things like tasks and message streams |
| 06:44.33 | brlcad | code is code, you can morph apache into ls if you really wanted to |
| 06:45.35 | brlcad | doesn't mean it's the most efficient to the end goal of the change, but there are other (necessary) aspects like seeing how/why code is changing (without being intimately involved in weeks of discussions) for example |
| 06:47.02 | biggeruniverse | I understand how software projects work. Do you really think bzfs2 is n00bish in execution? I'm not new to this. |
| 06:47.35 | brlcad | this has nothing to do with you (other than you abilities at communicating) |
| 06:47.36 | biggeruniverse | What I happen to be is rather outspoken, but not new. |
| 06:49.28 | L4m3r | I don't think anyone is questioning your ability to write code, but rather your ability/willingness to work as part of a team. |
| 06:50.12 | biggeruniverse | The way I am here is a reflection of the way this project is/is run. |
| 06:50.29 | biggeruniverse | This certainly isn't the only project I have involvement with |
| 06:51.46 | brlcad | it's also not a matter of whether "bzfs2" is "n00bish", it's a complete unknown entity at this point other than the vagueries of what's been said in here -- do I know whether command processing is still case insensitive or whether the -whatever options work? not really. do I know if there are fundamental issues anywhere in the code, maybe assumptions in the networking or event handling under unexpected conditions? not at all |
| 06:52.15 | brlcad | it's already taken on your word alone that it's got lots of great aspects |
| 06:52.17 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r14753 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsMessages.cxx: accept patch 1755256 from macsforme - don't send messages to the source player if they're already receiving it as the destination player. |
| 06:53.05 | Constitution | yay again :-) |
| 06:53.11 | jude- | ~DTRemenak++ |
| 06:53.16 | biggeruniverse | You don't have to, that's why the code is out there. |
| 06:53.28 | jude- | ~DTRemenak++ |
| 06:53.35 | biggeruniverse | ~karma |
| 06:53.35 | ibot | biggeruniverse has karma of -1 |
| 06:53.38 | biggeruniverse | yay! |
| 06:53.39 | jude- | (for the previous commit) |
| 06:53.53 | AAA_awright | DTRemenak: I thought you were supposed to recieve your own message back? |
| 06:53.55 | biggeruniverse | it's only -1! |
| 06:54.26 | DTRemenak | AAA_awright: what reason is there to send the same message twice? |
| 06:54.42 | AAA_awright | Right. Wait, that has never happened to me though. |
| 06:54.57 | DTRemenak | clientquery can trigger it. or /msg yourself. |
| 06:55.04 | DTRemenak | (not that the second case is valid) |
| 06:55.11 | Constitution | AAA_awright: when you send a message, it appears on your screen and the recipient's screen... when you're the sender and the recipient, it appears twice. |
| 06:55.11 | AAA_awright | Okay. |
| 06:55.25 | brlcad | biggeruniverse: that's the entire point, it's your effort, your obligation/responsibility to get it integrated through the established "due process" -- I don't know of a single dev (on this project or on about a dozen others) that would look through several thousands of lines of codes of a rewrite without some *major* motivation |
| 06:56.24 | brlcad | Constitution: interesting, where did it do that? |
| 06:56.31 | brlcad | the /msg command used to test for that |
| 06:56.56 | Constitution | brlcad: when plugins generated the message, or on /clientquery with no args |
| 06:57.16 | DTRemenak | mmm, /msg is in another place, so it's probably not possible to do that way. |
| 06:57.28 | DTRemenak | in any case, it's a cheap check |
| 06:57.30 | brlcad | hm, I liked clientquery coming back to me :) |
| 06:57.37 | DTRemenak | it still will |
| 06:57.41 | DTRemenak | just once, not twice :) |
| 06:57.56 | brlcad | ah, okay |
| 06:57.57 | AAA_awright | If WebSVN was up, I would show everyone how my PHP server sends messages |
| 06:59.50 | AAA_awright | Does bzfs do something to the sort of: array sendto; for(all players joined){if player==sender sendto[]=player;if(in_group(player,to)) sendto[]=player;} |
| 07:00.20 | AAA_awright | except that is a case/continue (not break) so you don't get added twice |
| 07:02.49 | AAA_awright | thrid one? |
| 07:02.55 | DTRemenak | of Constitution's patches |
| 07:03.09 | DTRemenak | svn trunk doesn't seem to have the problem he was trying to fix |
| 07:03.18 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14754 10/trunk/bzflag/ (AUTHORS NEWS): thanks to joshua bodine for providing a patch for the bug where players sometimes received duplicate messages (sf patch 1755256) |
| 07:03.32 | Constitution | v2_0branch is "really dead", or something was wrong with the patch? :-) |
| 07:03.43 | Constitution | thanks brlcad :-) |
| 07:03.47 | brlcad | thank you |
| 07:03.52 | DTRemenak | as far as I'M concerned, v2_0branch is "really dead" :) |
| 07:04.11 | DTRemenak | if you want to get any of that in 2.0, you'll have to bug someone else :) |
| 07:04.17 | Constitution | lol, ok |
| 07:04.18 | Constitution | but the patch itself was okay? |
| 07:04.19 | brlcad | if tupone were around, he'd probably apply it for you, but everyone else considers it quite dead dead dead |
| 07:04.32 | jude- | by 2.0, do you mean 2.0.x? |
| 07:04.55 | DTRemenak | mmm...only kinda. it fixed the problem, but not the way I would have (trunk does it correctly, by moving the event trigger into sendPlayerMessage) |
| 07:05.32 | Constitution | the patch was basically motivated by my adminListener plugin, which wasn't able to listen for messages sent with /msg |
| 07:05.32 | AAA_awright | DTRemenak: I proposed we at least talk about all the patches and feature requests and reject the ones that are really stupid or implemented (and being myself got bashed for it) |
| 07:05.43 | AAA_awright | On IRC with anyone/everyone on |
| 07:05.46 | DTRemenak | AAA_awright: that's because you said "we" :) |
| 07:05.46 | Constitution | so I can just tuck it in with the plugin source, I guess |
| 07:06.06 | DTRemenak | patches are reviewed whenever someone feels like it |
| 07:06.15 | DTRemenak | Constitution said something that appealed to me, so I reviewed his |
| 07:06.40 | brlcad | they are methodically gone through from time to time by whomever |
| 07:06.44 | AAA_awright | Need to add a regex replacment to ChatZilla: Substitute "We" for "Those in this channel" |
| 07:07.01 | AAA_awright | At least talk about it. |
| 07:07.01 | DTRemenak | AAA_awright: same deal...I didn't mean to imply any inadequacy on your part |
| 07:07.02 | brlcad | by far, most of them are still in there because they have some redeeming quality that makes them desirable |
| 07:07.49 | DTRemenak | AAA_awright: saying "we should do x" is pretty much a death knell for anyone to do x, because they all automatically assume that "we" means "everyone who's not them" |
| 07:07.56 | AAA_awright | ...Disable jump key while chatting. That was submitted by a user who (obviously) didn't go through the (overly large) config panel. |
| 07:08.24 | brlcad | anything submitted in the last few months probably hasn't been reviewed |
| 07:09.10 | DTRemenak | AAA_awright: yeah, that just makes them leave IRC :) |
| 07:09.17 | jude- | ~Constitution++ |
| 07:09.31 | brlcad | AAA_awright: that one I actually read -- it wasn't closed (by me) simply because it could be taken to mean -- disable jump key while chatting by default |
| 07:09.34 | brlcad | which it isn't |
| 07:09.54 | brlcad | which DTR and I disagree on, and I conceed :) |
| 07:10.32 | brlcad | prevailing behavior wins without "great" justification or the competition disappearing :) |
| 07:10.33 | AAA_awright | brlcad: The default tab key is non-ptinting |
| 07:10.53 | AAA_awright | Even better: create a third, "If non-printing" option. |
| 07:11.29 | brlcad | er, it's a printable code, we just don't handle it |
| 07:12.04 | AAA_awright | anything printable or space |
| 07:12.06 | AAA_awright | or enter |
| 07:12.15 | AAA_awright | You knew what I meant |
| 07:12.17 | DTRemenak | better yet, change the option to "Allow commands to issued while typing if the key pressed is not a valid character in a message" (err...probably made shorter) |
| 07:15.41 | brlcad | the design decision still stems around whether you keep "shared focus" on the keyboard or not when you're typing a message, and similar whether you allow tank control while "doing other things" (messages, menus) -- to which the loose consensus to date is yes and yes :) |
| 07:16.10 | DTRemenak | yeah, it really is a design thing. kinda too bad, 'cause that means it probably won't ever really be resolved :) |
| 07:16.53 | brlcad | at least until there's a really pressing need for one way or the other cause of something else |
| 07:17.09 | DTRemenak | and I dunno about consensus. seemed nicely split to me, but I've got precident on my side :) |
| 07:17.36 | brlcad | or someone *ahem* refactors the menus, defaults, or event handlers and silently changes the bindings |
| 07:17.40 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 07:18.13 | brlcad | loose consensus merely by the fact that it's that way and has been that way without any fighting for a long time |
| 07:18.34 | brlcad | "prevailing behavior wins" ;) |
| 07:19.30 | AAA_awright | Always debate each menu option. Advanced users can edit the config file, only keep the core config options in the interface. That was a philosophy I learned from TortoiseCVS |
| 07:20.37 | DTRemenak | advanced options are not always desired only by advanced users |
| 07:20.47 | DTRemenak | that's something I wish gaim/pidgin had picked up on |
| 07:21.24 | DTRemenak | though they seem to have gotten better about that recently. there was a while they killed every option they could think of, regardless of flamewars. |
| 07:21.41 | L4m3r | gaim still stinks. :) |
| 07:21.52 | DTRemenak | and yeah, we have too many options :) |
| 07:21.57 | L4m3r | they seem to refuse to add any specialized features to any particular protocol |
| 07:22.15 | DTRemenak | yeah, in favor of a unified interface instead |
| 07:22.17 | L4m3r | resulting in all-around wonkiness and a "lowest common denominator" experience |
| 07:22.19 | DTRemenak | another design decision |
| 07:22.30 | DTRemenak | that one at least I respect. |
| 07:22.35 | DTRemenak | IM is for text, dammit. |
| 07:22.52 | AAA_awright | If there is a way you can add the feature without needing a configuration option, do it. The addition of a config option should require a few hours of solid thinking. |
| 07:22.57 | DTRemenak | course I think email should be plain text too :) |
| 07:23.06 | L4m3r | just small nusiances like a complete lack of notice handling in IRC, and incorrect nick formatting :P |
| 07:23.27 | DTRemenak | gaim is a really terrible irc client |
| 07:23.33 | L4m3r | mmhm |
| 07:23.41 | DTRemenak | irc is not im |
| 07:23.45 | AAA_awright | Better then ads. |
| 07:24.05 | L4m3r | it's a mediocre client at its best (like with aim), and really, really bad for some of them |
| 07:24.39 | L4m3r | sometimes you just have to accept that protocols have their own quirks :P |
| 07:24.43 | DTRemenak | I like it as an IM client. Lets me not worry about what protocol supports what. |
| 07:24.59 | DTRemenak | protocol-transparency is really nice sometimes |
| 07:25.00 | AAA_awright | I've only ever needed it for text with no styles, so I can't understand. |
| 07:25.01 | L4m3r | by supporting nothing? I like that approach :P |
| 07:25.10 | DTRemenak | L4m3r: by supporting PLAIN TEXT. |
| 07:25.11 | AAA_awright | I have known voice would be nice though. |
| 07:25.17 | DTRemenak | which is all anybody should be sending me ;) |
| 07:25.35 | AAA_awright | DTRemenak: Ditto that |
| 07:25.48 | L4m3r | the receiving client can weed that out :P |
| 07:25.49 | DTRemenak | and they have unified, configurable statuses now, which is nice |
| 07:26.22 | L4m3r | I prefer Kopete, but its formatting is even worse for irc |
| 07:26.34 | DTRemenak | I'll admit sometimes I do wish file transfer worked reliably |
| 07:26.43 | DTRemenak | but that's not a design thing, it's implementation |
| 07:27.00 | L4m3r | but hey, these days I rarely use anything other than irc anyway |
| 07:27.12 | L4m3r | hell, I've got chillin using it :P |
| 07:27.24 | DTRemenak | I'd never use gaim as my irc client. unfortunately, not EVERYONE uses irc :) |
| 07:27.59 | AAA_awright | IRC on Gaim is horrible. |
| 07:28.13 | L4m3r | too bad they don't have a CLI IM client eh? |
| 07:28.19 | jude- | yeah they do |
| 07:28.20 | jude- | irssi |
| 07:28.20 | DTRemenak | gaim does :) |
| 07:28.29 | jude- | bitchx |
| 07:28.30 | DTRemenak | libgaim can redirect through the console |
| 07:28.44 | L4m3r | heh |
| 07:28.59 | DTRemenak | iirc there was even a curses interface being worked on. dunno how that turned out. |
| 07:29.10 | L4m3r | ok, gonna go get some food, bbl |
| 07:29.19 | L4m3r | (yay for 24h subway) |
| 07:38.15 | *** join/#bzflag jujibo (n=jujibo@about/essy/JujiboHunter/Manu) |
| 07:38.15 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v jujibo] by ChanServ |
| 07:43.47 | awilcox | Um. |
| 07:44.27 | awilcox | I don't want another flamewar. Squelch me if you want. But my list server idea is running a "cluster" (not necessarily a real server cluster, but just more than one at a time) and use squid to cache |
| 07:44.36 | awilcox | sort of like Wikipedia uses. |
| 07:46.45 | Constitution | the information provided by the list server is very dynamic, though |
| 07:47.07 | awilcox | yes, and Wikipedia handles thousands of changes per second |
| 07:48.30 | awilcox | it even says on the project page that it can be used to do load balacing and route to other servers if needed |
| 07:48.38 | awilcox | which is exactly what the list server needs |
| 07:53.21 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14755 10/trunk/bzflag/src/3D/FontManager.cxx: make it easy to override the type of FTGL font being used |
| 08:05.42 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14756 10/trunk/bzflag/data/ (6 files): accept Win_Xp's sf patch 1700791 for new mountains, even though they *still* have discontinuities from image to image that aren't acceptible. ideally the mountains wouldn't simply be flipped repetitions too. |
| 08:07.43 | L4m3r | weren't those old high-def mountains rediscovered? |
| 08:12.06 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14757 10/trunk/bzflag/src/platform/EvdevJoystick.cxx: apply Paul Chitescu's sf patch 1105298 that lets SDL bzflag compile against older versions of libSDL that don't have FF support |
| 08:31.11 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03judecn * r14758 10/trunk/bzworkbench/ (15 files in 10 dirs): |
| 08:31.11 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: Added a Cone Configuration dialog box (doesn't do anything yet but appear), re-programmed the Master Configuration Dialog |
| 08:31.11 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: to launch extra configuration dialog boxes when the user clicks "More...", re-programmed the bz2object class to shift it's geometric |
| 08:31.12 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: data to the world origin before transformations and back to the local origin afterwards (because BZFlag transforms geometric data with |
| 08:31.15 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: respect to the world origin, but BZWB transforms with respect to the object's local origin) to ensure WYSIWIG-ness. Known issue: the MCD |
| 08:31.18 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: does transformations backwards :/ (will fix later). Also, added an AUTHORS file (let me know if you think you should be in it). |
| 08:32.32 | jude- | sorry--I got carried away there |
| 08:32.36 | jude- | that commit was a bit too big :/ |
| 08:33.10 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r14759 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/HUDRenderer.cxx: |
| 08:33.10 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: apply the patch from Markus aka links_2004, sf patch 1629620 (FPS color + YOUR |
| 08:33.10 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: FPS IS TOO LOW), although only applied in spirit. this doesn't print the alert |
| 08:33.10 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: or do the same color levels, but does change the color for various levels. |
| 08:33.35 | Constitution | ~jude-++ |
| 08:33.56 | jude- | hopefully it doesn't crash :) |
| 08:35.16 | brlcad | L4m3r: I dunno but current sucks and the patch is only ever so slightly less sucky |
| 08:35.59 | L4m3r | is it something with the images, or the rendering? |
| 08:36.03 | brlcad | yes |
| 08:36.09 | L4m3r | >_< |
| 08:36.42 | L4m3r | remind me after gsoc to play with it. I could at least work up some decent textures... dunno about the rendering part |
| 08:43.27 | daxxar | Mornin'! |
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| 08:46.43 | brlcad | howdy daxxar |
| 08:47.01 | Saber_ | im going to sleep now |
| 08:47.35 | daxxar | Enjoy yoursel |
| 08:47.36 | daxxar | self* |
| 08:53.06 | daxxar | ~ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 08:53.06 | ibot | i already had it that way, daxxar |
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| 10:18.44 | tannerld | heh |
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| 12:36.59 | Epyon_ | mornin' all ^_^ |
| 12:47.57 | daxxar | Mornin' eppy |
| 12:48.14 | daxxar | mithro was poking you over in #tp |
| 12:49.02 | Epyon_ | I lost my logs because of a power failure :( |
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| 15:39.58 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r14760 10/trunk/bzflag/src/platform/EvdevJoystick.cxx: Patch 1105298 is ugly, and the cited reason is wrong. Revert the patch and fix the issue in question with our existing FF support defines. Build on kernels that have event devices but don't have force feedback support. |
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| 15:54.10 | Winny | tell met to ping me when he logs on |
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| 16:19.32 | Macrosoft|sleep | you know you have nothing to do when checking the forums is the highlight of your day |
| 16:19.57 | Winny | hehe |
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| 17:03.49 | menotume | !bottest |
| 17:04.18 | menotume | ~seen ibot |
| 17:04.43 | ibot | ibot is currently on #bzflag (5d 23h 45m 25s) #kierra (5d 23h 45m 25s) #brlcad (5d 23h 45m 25s) #handhelds (5d 23h 45m 25s) #utah (5d 23h 45m 25s) #oe (5d 23h 45m 25s) #zaurus (5d 23h 45m 25s) #gllug (5d 23h 45m 25s) #pillbox (5d 23h 45m 25s) #handhelds-gpe (5d 23h 45m 25s) #openzaurus ... |
| 17:06.12 | Winny | hehe |
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| 18:16.05 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14761 10/trunk/bzwgen/common.h: Norm and normalize |
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| 19:07.05 | Epyon_ | brlcad, DTRemenak, that error on warning is really annoying when debugging -_- |
| 19:07.33 | Erroneous | so turn it off:) |
| 19:08.30 | Tupone | It should be annoying, Most warnings are errors at the end |
| 19:10.04 | Erroneous | code that you're trying to get to work doesn't necessarily need to be clean. should be before you commit though. |
| 19:15.56 | Tupone | there are some option we pass to compiler that I don't like, like the alias detection, that indeed force an error that is not really an error for me :/ |
| 19:16.22 | Epyon_ | OMG, I created a twilight zone -_- |
| 19:20.16 | awilcox | a_meteorite: 11:53 < Winny> tell met to ping me when he logs on |
| 19:21.11 | awilcox | -Wall -Wextra -Werror is good. I use it in my FOSS projects. |
| 19:21.27 | a_meteorite | I think BZFlag would fail utterly with that |
| 19:21.43 | awilcox | a_met: hehe. |
| 19:21.53 | Epyon_ | hmm is there a bug here? "void normalize() { float l = lengthsq(); if (l == 0) return; x/=l; y/=l; z/=l; }" |
| 19:22.35 | awilcox | Epyon_: besides the fact that x,y,z are not defined (which I assume they are, and you are doing your floaty thing), no |
| 19:23.04 | Epyon_ | So why does it return values greater than 1 o.O |
| 19:23.25 | Epyon_ | (return = set x,y,z length) |
| 19:24.30 | awilcox | are x,y,z defined as floats? |
| 19:24.56 | Epyon_ | yep |
| 19:27.32 | Epyon_ | baka baka baka. |
| 19:27.36 | Epyon_ | stupid me -_- |
| 19:29.00 | awilcox | Epyon_: and make your code better! x /= l; y /= l; z /= l; return; |
| 19:29.04 | awilcox | Notice _*return*_ |
| 19:29.14 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14762 10/trunk/bzwgen/common.h: Doing a mistake in norm/normalize implementation. Stupid me. |
| 19:29.36 | Epyon_ | why the return? |
| 19:29.46 | Erroneous | awilcox: there's no need to explicitly return from a void function. |
| 19:30.01 | awilcox | Erroneous: O_o there is in gcc afaik |
| 19:30.19 | Epyon_ | That's be plain stupid -_- |
| 19:31.48 | awilcox | Hrms. |
| 19:31.53 | awilcox | tisn't required. |
| 19:34.57 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14763 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (Mesh.cxx Mesh.h): expandFace implemented, let's get serious -_- |
| 19:35.00 | Winny | ~Thumper_++ |
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| 20:25.03 | JeffM | so the SOC ends this month? or next month? |
| 20:26.16 | AAA_awright | August 31: Final evaluation deadline |
| 20:26.29 | JeffM | fun |
| 20:26.50 | AAA_awright | But the code has to be uploaded by the 20th |
| 20:27.05 | JeffM | then there is a party after that right? :) |
| 20:28.04 | AAA_awright | Why not (I guess) |
| 20:28.45 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14764 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (BuildZone.cxx Mesh.cxx Mesh.h): Abusing the new mesh tools - enhanced the simple building model to test the expand/extrude tools |
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| 20:29.35 | Epyon_ | http://bzflag.chaosforge.org/screenshots/bzfi0016.png |
| 20:30.19 | awilcox | Oy. |
| 20:30.40 | awilcox | I don't think any of the SoC projects are ready for a final evaluation. |
| 20:30.45 | awilcox | A semi-final but not a final. |
| 20:31.26 | Epyon_ | Surely mine isn't xP |
| 20:31.30 | awilcox | hehe |
| 20:31.57 | AAA_awright | Epyon_: How far are you going to take this office building stuff? Not to put a sudden turn to your development, but I (and surely others) prefer giant, open worlds. HiX is a brilliant example. Is anything in that area going to happen? |
| 20:32.06 | JeffM | dosn't mater if they are ready, that's when it ends :) |
| 20:32.16 | Epyon_ | Now face subdivision. |
| 20:32.22 | Winny | ~AAA_awright++ |
| 20:32.29 | Epyon_ | AAA_awright, It's just for tool testing anyway. |
| 20:33.00 | Epyon_ | The project's scope is a city generator though :P |
| 20:33.23 | Epyon_ | AAA_awright, gimme a link to that map btw. |
| 20:33.37 | AAA_awright | HiX2 is in the SVN tree (let me check where) |
| 20:34.14 | JeffM | Epyon_, how expandable is the logic module that does the randomness? |
| 20:34.29 | Epyon_ | AAA_awright, the reasoning behind that is probably the fact that as BZF doesn't have slopes, anything else then a city would look VERY artificial :P |
| 20:34.42 | AAA_awright | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:34.50 | Epyon_ | JeffM, currently not much, but I'm working on it. |
| 20:35.14 | JeffM | if you make it extendable, then others can make randomisers that can make outdoor maps etc.. |
| 20:35.23 | JeffM | we don't expect your app to make every type of world |
| 20:35.28 | AAA_awright | Epyon_: I don't need somthing that looks like a city, but randomly generated worlds that seem like the blocks were placed with jumping distances in mind, keeping the field even, ect |
| 20:36.10 | Epyon_ | AAA_awright, http://bzflag.chaosforge.org/ see "project goals" |
| 20:36.38 | awilcox | Epyon_ :O |
| 20:36.39 | JeffM | AAA_awright, if it dosn't do what you'd like to see it do, when it's done you can work on adding features to it ;) |
| 20:36.42 | Epyon_ | JeffM, the main premise is a mesh object that allows for procedural geometry generation :P |
| 20:36.43 | awilcox | Epyon_ thats amazing |
| 20:36.56 | Epyon_ | awilcox, what is? o.O |
| 20:36.59 | JeffM | Epyon_, yeah that's the core that any randomiser will need |
| 20:37.06 | awilcox | Epyon_ I finally looked at your screeny |
| 20:37.27 | Epyon_ | ah, AAA_awright doesn't like it xP |
| 20:37.34 | JeffM | he'll live |
| 20:38.18 | awilcox | Epyon_ that was completely worth opening Firefox. when can I play on it? |
| 20:38.24 | awilcox | and is there rico on the buildings? |
| 20:38.36 | JeffM | rico would be set by the server |
| 20:38.43 | JeffM | and not part of the randomiser |
| 20:38.44 | Epyon_ | Anyway, if the building generator works, I'll probably try to implement something that brlcad suggested -- open area with scattered buildings. |
| 20:39.07 | AAA_awright | No, I just got confused about how a city came up out of improving the random building placer thing on bzfs. |
| 20:39.19 | Epyon_ | JeffM, rules randomization would be a fine addition for a "total chaos game" xP |
| 20:39.27 | AAA_awright | :D |
| 20:39.30 | JeffM | AAA_awright, the goal wasn't improving it, it was making a city generateor ;) |
| 20:39.43 | Epyon_ | AAA_awright, it's not improving, it's a separate standalone app |
| 20:39.52 | JeffM | yeah, the old random stuff is still there |
| 20:40.14 | awilcox | Epyon_: do you have a test server? this is something I would be willing to squeeze into my schedule to beta test |
| 20:40.29 | AAA_awright | Anyone want to change the bzwiki to reflect that then? It hevally implies improving the existing generator inside bzfs. |
| 20:41.05 | Epyon_ | Seems that at least one person likes what I'm doing xP |
| 20:41.10 | AAA_awright | Ooh, I would like that too |
| 20:41.16 | awilcox | and I do have a question. is it "bzflag" or "BZflag" or "BZFlag"? |
| 20:41.17 | JeffM | Epyon_, many do |
| 20:41.25 | JeffM | awilcox, it's BZFlag |
| 20:41.29 | awilcox | JeffM: okay. |
| 20:41.33 | awilcox | thanks |
| 20:41.53 | JeffM | AAA_awright, you qualify as an "anyone" :) |
| 20:42.39 | AAA_awright | Uh, did I miss somthing? |
| 20:43.13 | Epyon_ | AAA_awright "[22:40] <AAA_awright> Anyone want to change the bzwiki to reflectthat then? It hevally implies improving the existing generator inside bzfs." |
| 20:43.29 | AAA_awright | (Right) |
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| 20:47.04 | JeffM | then what did you feel you missed? |
| 20:47.52 | AAA_awright | What I said myself >_< |
| 20:47.55 | blast007 | AAA_awright: what wiki page were you referring to, and which part? |
| 20:48.14 | AAA_awright | http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code#Random_Procedural_World_Generator |
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| 20:49.06 | blast007 | where does that imply replacing the existing generator? |
| 20:51.03 | blast007 | that is not something that would be modified in the wiki anyway |
| 20:51.14 | blast007 | that is their original proposal that they submit to GSoC |
| 21:07.29 | Constitution | Epyon_: I was thinking of setting up a test server for your map generator... one that would update to the latest SVN on a nightly basis and allow players to test it... what are your thoughts on that? |
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| 21:08.59 | Epyon_ | Constitution would that be doable? |
| 21:09.08 | javaJake | HelloI am running BZFlag win |
| 21:09.11 | javaJake | Eep |
| 21:09.18 | javaJake | Lemme retry that (client froze) |
| 21:09.29 | javaJake | Hello, I am running BZFlag in Windows. |
| 21:09.33 | Epyon_ | It would only make sense if it would "re-generate" the level every hour at least. |
| 21:09.36 | javaJake | However, the framerate is horrible |
| 21:09.48 | Winny | javaJake: get new videocard drivers |
| 21:10.14 | javaJake | Winny: I can't find any. (NVIDIA RIVA TNT2 Model 64/Model 64 Pro (Microsoft Corporation)) |
| 21:10.26 | javaJake | That's what the Device Manager says |
| 21:10.28 | Constitution | Epyon_: you mean, generate a new map each hour? that would certainly be doable |
| 21:11.50 | Epyon_ | Constitution, it would be more fun though if I would implement bases for CTF :/ |
| 21:13.06 | Constitution | well it would reflect changes fairly quickly, so maps would have new features (like CTF) as you implement them |
| 21:13.08 | *** join/#bzflag jude- (n=jude@c-68-84-206-92.hsd1.az.comcast.net) |
| 21:13.16 | jude- | hello all |
| 21:13.20 | javaJake | Um... OK... found driversT |
| 21:13.20 | Constitution | hi jude- |
| 21:13.25 | javaJake | That's not even funny |
| 21:13.27 | Epyon_ | jude- :D |
| 21:13.33 | jude- | ~Epyon++ |
| 21:13.35 | jude- | :) |
| 21:13.37 | javaJake | :P TTYL |
| 21:13.42 | *** part/#bzflag javaJake (n=javajake@pool-71-126-54-13.bstnma.east.verizon.net) |
| 21:13.51 | Epyon_ | jude-, what was that for? o.O |
| 21:13.58 | jude- | all the commits as of late |
| 21:14.31 | Epyon_ | jude-, yeah, I agree. I made more commits the last 48 hours than during the rest of project -_- |
| 21:14.39 | jude- | so, you deserve it : |
| 21:14.41 | jude- | :) |
| 21:14.47 | Constitution | Epyon_: make seems to give an error when attempting to find zone.h... http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/643514 |
| 21:15.56 | Constitution | erm, because it's "Zone.h" |
| 21:16.51 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14765 10/trunk/bzwgen/FloorZone.h: it's Zone.h not zone.h -_- |
| 21:17.04 | Constitution | thanks |
| 21:17.07 | Epyon_ | Stupid non-case sensitive windows -_- |
| 21:20.11 | *** join/#bzflag javaJake (n=javajake@pool-71-126-54-13.bstnma.east.verizon.net) |
| 21:20.21 | javaJake | Last Q: What version of OpenGL does BZFLag use? |
| 21:21.15 | jude- | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:22.30 | javaJake | Right |
| 21:22.44 | javaJake | The video card's drivers (old they be) only support up to v1.5 |
| 21:23.53 | Epyon_ | OMG, that's impossible! |
| 21:24.31 | jude- | you should still be able to run BZFlag...2.0 and up adds shading language support, which I don't think BZFlag uses |
| 21:24.32 | javaJake | ?? |
| 21:24.50 | javaJake | jude-, OK |
| 21:24.51 | jude- | ...you can also disable the more advanced rendering features under "Options" |
| 21:24.54 | javaJake | Epyon_, what? |
| 21:25.12 | jude- | i.e. MIP-mapping, advanced texturing, lighting, etc. to make it go faster on older hardware |
| 21:25.17 | Epyon_ | subdivision actually worked in the first run! I must have made something wrong o.O |
| 21:25.27 | jude- | Epyon_: lol |
| 21:25.49 | javaJake | lol |
| 21:25.53 | javaJake | It works every time for me. :D |
| 21:26.04 | blast007 | javaJake: BZFlag still runs under software rendering, if that's any clue ;) |
| 21:26.23 | jude- | ...but that's a last resort option :P |
| 21:26.54 | blast007 | jude-: it ran faster/better in software rendering on my old laptop with an S3 Savage IX chipset |
| 21:26.58 | jude- | javaJake: what card do you have? |
| 21:27.03 | jude- | blast007: O.o |
| 21:27.09 | jude- | wooowww |
| 21:27.17 | blast007 | the hardware liked to swap textures around |
| 21:27.28 | jude- | heh--that'll slow it down |
| 21:27.38 | blast007 | I had the mountain texture flying overhead instead of clouds |
| 21:27.51 | jude- | eek |
| 21:28.00 | jude- | hardware/firmware bug? |
| 21:28.02 | *** join/#bzflag czappa (n=czappa@dsl51B788DC.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 21:28.07 | czappa | hi all |
| 21:28.08 | blast007 | never tried linux |
| 21:28.18 | blast007 | but it ran the same way on another system with a similar chipset |
| 21:28.28 | blast007 | perhaps that was on my IBM server that I tried |
| 21:28.40 | blast007 | hi czappa |
| 21:29.50 | javaJake | jude-, I have a NVIDIA RIVA TNT2 Model 64/Model 64 Pro (Microsoft Corporation) |
| 21:30.29 | javaJake | jude-, it's old, but there has to be drivers somewhere for it. I remember years ago (v1.0) BZFlag ran like a dream. That was until we reinstalled |
| 21:30.48 | blast007 | javaJake: you'll need the 66.xx drivers for that one |
| 21:30.49 | blast007 | they're in the nVidia driver archive |
| 21:30.50 | jude- | javaJake: I have one of those too in an older box...it can easily run BZFlag |
| 21:30.50 | javaJake | blast007, know where I can get those? |
| 21:31.02 | javaJake | jude-, OMgosh, where are the drivers!?!?!?! |
| 21:31.03 | blast007 | both for windows and linux |
| 21:31.08 | javaJake | I haven't found them for months now! |
| 21:31.12 | jude- | javaJake: NVIDIA legacy drivers |
| 21:31.15 | JeffM | javaJake, calm down |
| 21:31.16 | blast007 | they're on nvidia's site |
| 21:31.21 | jude- | yup |
| 21:31.21 | JeffM | and read the websites |
| 21:31.23 | javaJake | I thought I found them, but then... bam.... said it didn't support me |
| 21:31.34 | JeffM | because you don't read and have an old card |
| 21:31.35 | jude- | 1.0.7xxx legacy drivers |
| 21:31.36 | blast007 | you used too new of drivers |
| 21:31.37 | javaJake | blast007, can you link me? |
| 21:31.49 | JeffM | javaJake, we are not here to hold your hand |
| 21:31.51 | JeffM | go read the page |
| 21:31.52 | javaJake | JeffM, well, heh, normally I'm not that bad... |
| 21:32.02 | JeffM | well right now you are |
| 21:32.05 | jude- | http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux_display_ia32_1.0-7185.html |
| 21:32.07 | JeffM | just chill and read the page |
| 21:32.12 | blast007 | linux or windows? |
| 21:32.21 | javaJake | Windoze. |
| 21:32.24 | blast007 | JeffM: the page wasn't overly helpful |
| 21:32.31 | javaJake | I second that. |
| 21:32.37 | blast007 | when I tried anything newer than 66.xx, it said it wasn't supported |
| 21:32.42 | javaJake | Besides, I've heard of them, and seen pages about them, but I can never get a link to them |
| 21:32.42 | blast007 | even though their list said it was |
| 21:32.45 | blast007 | http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp-2k_archive.html |
| 21:32.54 | javaJake | And, on top of that, I was getting mixed messages from nVidia's site |
| 21:32.58 | jude- | javaJake: ignore that link (that was for Linux drivers) |
| 21:33.05 | jude- | (i.e. ignore my link) |
| 21:33.31 | JeffM | if he's got a TNT2 |
| 21:33.46 | czappa | I have Debian 4.0, I installed bzflag about 1 mounts ago with apt and it was good, but nowadays it lags too much, I have no torrent, etc at the background, what can the problem be? |
| 21:33.50 | javaJake | blast007, 66.xx, correct? |
| 21:33.53 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14766 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (Mesh.cxx Mesh.h): Simple face subdivision implemented. |
| 21:34.09 | JeffM | the current TNT drivers are 78.01 |
| 21:34.14 | JeffM | for 2k/xp |
| 21:34.16 | javaJake | JeffM, yes, I know |
| 21:34.22 | jude- | czappa: proper video card drivers? direct rendering enabled? |
| 21:34.31 | javaJake | JeffM, read this: |
| 21:34.35 | jude- | czappa: which card? |
| 21:34.50 | javaJake | JeffM, scroll to bottom: |
| 21:34.51 | javaJake | http://www.nvidia.com/object/78.01_winxp_32_supported.html |
| 21:35.20 | czappa | video card driver installed, and i was player bzflag some weeks ago, I have ati 9800 pro |
| 21:35.32 | czappa | so Radeon 9800pro |
| 21:35.36 | *** join/#bzflag KTL (n=KTL@kotnet-149.kulnet.kuleuven.be) |
| 21:35.36 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright__ (n=chatzill@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 21:35.41 | *** part/#bzflag KTL (n=KTL@kotnet-149.kulnet.kuleuven.be) |
| 21:35.45 | javaJake | JeffM, that's what got me aggrivated. They pointed me to a driver, downloaded it, said I wasn't supported. |
| 21:35.47 | *** join/#bzflag KTL (n=KTL@kotnet-149.kulnet.kuleuven.be) |
| 21:35.54 | jude- | czappa: when you launch bzflag, does it *say* you have that card in the messaging box? |
| 21:36.09 | javaJake | JeffM, and that's partly what's thrown me off |
| 21:36.25 | jude- | czappa: if not, then it's a driver/GL library problem |
| 21:36.32 | JeffM | odd |
| 21:36.50 | czappa | jude-: i will look it, 1 moment |
| 21:37.17 | javaJake | JeffM, mind you, there are multiple (watered-down?) versions as well: http://www.dansdata.com/butterfly.htm |
| 21:37.40 | JeffM | yeah the 64's are gimped |
| 21:37.47 | JeffM | it ain't gonna be a fast card for you |
| 21:37.49 | javaJake | blast007, it's installing!!!! after 3 months, a driver isntalls! Thank you thank you tahnk you! |
| 21:38.02 | javaJake | JeffM, as long as it accellerates... |
| 21:38.13 | JeffM | it will do filling that's it |
| 21:38.16 | JeffM | no GPU stuff |
| 21:38.24 | Erroneous | we don't do any gpu stuff anyway |
| 21:38.27 | javaJake | JeffM, I have a 6-year-old 8 MB card that runs BZFlag. :) |
| 21:38.31 | JeffM | Erroneous, lists |
| 21:38.31 | Erroneous | tnt2 is hw t&l, and we don't even do that |
| 21:38.43 | czappa | it says Open gl: Mesa GLX indirect |
| 21:38.50 | JeffM | we use lists now that can sit on the card on a GeForce or better |
| 21:38.59 | JeffM | and that realy helps the bandwith |
| 21:39.11 | javaJake | JeffM, use lists? |
| 21:39.14 | JeffM | yes |
| 21:39.15 | JeffM | lists |
| 21:39.18 | javaJake | :) |
| 21:39.24 | Epyon_ | Hmm, this looks ugly "Vertex vv = mesh.v[mesh.f[fs[j]].vtx[0]]-mesh.v[mesh.f[fs[j]].vtx[1]];" |
| 21:39.25 | javaJake | Can you explain? |
| 21:39.30 | JeffM | display lists |
| 21:39.36 | JeffM | sends the geo to the card |
| 21:39.39 | jude- | czappa: that means you don't have direct rendering |
| 21:39.52 | jude- | ...which is why it got slower |
| 21:40.14 | jude- | are you sure you're using the fglrx driver? |
| 21:40.26 | jude- | ...and not the ati driver? |
| 21:40.40 | javaJake | ati rules, fglrx can wreak havoc. |
| 21:40.47 | jude- | ati is slooowwww |
| 21:40.49 | javaJake | Or so I've heard... :) |
| 21:40.53 | jude- | radeon and avivo are better |
| 21:40.55 | JeffM | depends on what card you have |
| 21:41.58 | javaJake | JeffM, er, no, I mean it wreaks havoc on the system itself - it (supposedly) installs and overwrites certain files, etc., and never replaces them on uninstall, leaving bits of fglrx-dependant files across your system. I've heard horror stories, let's put it that way. |
| 21:42.06 | JeffM | javaJake, I wasn't talking to you |
| 21:42.09 | jude- | javaJake: same with nvidia's driver |
| 21:42.12 | javaJake | JeffM, ah, right |
| 21:42.22 | jude- | javaJake: go through the package manager for that reason :) |
| 21:42.31 | czappa | oughhh jesus, i'm so silly, i had i486 kernel and changed it to i686, so i have to install once more the driver for the video card |
| 21:42.40 | jude- | heh |
| 21:42.45 | javaJake | whoops, heheheh |
| 21:42.46 | Erroneous | pft, package managers |
| 21:42.48 | jude- | been there before myself with NVIDIA's driver :) |
| 21:42.49 | czappa | sorry guys, and thanks for the help |
| 21:42.56 | javaJake | Erroneous, Gentoo? :) |
| 21:42.59 | *** join/#bzflag EbErT (n=EbErT@adsl-34-34-229.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 21:43.04 | jude- | nah, Slackware |
| 21:43.05 | Erroneous | slackware & friends |
| 21:43.15 | Erroneous | gentoo is for ricers |
| 21:43.25 | jude- | Gentoo's going downhill from the looks of it :/ |
| 21:43.28 | JeffM | And SGI machines |
| 21:43.32 | javaJake | Anywwaayy.... I'd better go. JeffM's not looking to happy, and I'm getting OT. I think I'm good - I just need to restart. TTYL, thanks blast007 for the help. |
| 21:44.05 | javaJake | And thanks jude- for your help as well. Can't forget you. |
| 21:44.11 | jude- | heh. np :) |
| 21:44.11 | *** part/#bzflag javaJake (n=javajake@pool-71-126-54-13.bstnma.east.verizon.net) |
| 21:44.35 | czappa | bye |
| 21:44.41 | *** part/#bzflag czappa (n=czappa@dsl51B788DC.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 21:44.58 | Erroneous | so what's up with the random storm of people without drivers? :) |
| 21:45.28 | jude-|AFK | is it a full moon? :) |
| 21:45.54 | Epyon_ | Now for something crazy |
| 21:46.25 | jude-|AFK | right--leaving now |
| 21:46.51 | Epyon_ | If this will work, I'm going to the fridge for a beer -_- |
| 21:51.13 | Epyon_ | Duuuuh! |
| 21:52.11 | Epyon_ | -rwxrwxrwx 1 Kornel Kisielewicz None 1907806 Aug 2 23:44 test.bzw |
| 21:52.26 | Epyon_ | 2MBytes o.O |
| 21:55.04 | Erroneous | time for groups? :) |
| 21:55.34 | Epyon_ | OMG, BZFlag didn't handle it o.O |
| 21:57.55 | Epyon_ | C:\Program Files\BZFlag2.0.8>bzflag Epyon@localhost:5154 |
| 21:57.55 | Epyon_ | This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way. |
| 21:57.55 | Epyon_ | Please contact the application's support team for more information. |
| 21:59.35 | Epyon_ | OMG, now I know why. |
| 21:59.44 | Epyon_ | It isn't 2MB |
| 21:59.53 | Epyon_ | It's.... 14... |
| 22:00.25 | JeffM | still what limit are we hiting |
| 22:00.45 | *** join/#bzflag _MPS_ (n=MPS@84.245.166.25) |
| 22:00.57 | Epyon_ | I dunno :/ |
| 22:01.49 | JeffM | that's what debugers are for ;) |
| 22:02.11 | Epyon_ | JeffM, my program runs fine :/ |
| 22:02.19 | JeffM | I'm sure it does |
| 22:02.22 | JeffM | debug BZ |
| 22:02.37 | Epyon_ | sure, how -_- |
| 22:02.43 | JeffM | same way you debug your app |
| 22:02.51 | JeffM | build debug then run in the debuger |
| 22:03.31 | Epyon_ | WOAH, my PC is dying o.O |
| 22:03.45 | Epyon_ | VC++ died, FireFox died... |
| 22:04.17 | JeffM | mayhaps you have issues |
| 22:06.23 | *** join/#bzflag Epyon (n=Epyon@host99.180.219.81.magma-net.pl) |
| 22:06.49 | Epyon | Now that was *scary* o.O |
| 22:09.40 | *** join/#bzflag ducatiwannabe (n=ducwan@adsl-68-95-160-63.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 22:12.22 | *** join/#bzflag ducatiwannabe (n=ducwan@adsl-68-95-160-63.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 22:14.43 | Epyon | ~pastebin |
| 22:14.44 | ibot | i guess pastebin is a place to paste your stuff without flooding the channel - try http://pastebin.ca, or http://channels.debian.net/paste, or http://rafb.net/paste/, or http://pastebin.com is usually painfully too slow and unresponsive to use, use one of the other pastebin sites, or dpaste.com is a very nice pastebin as well |
| 22:16.26 | Epyon | http://pastebin.ca/643589 -- should it be that way? |
| 22:19.30 | *** join/#bzflag tupone (n=atupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 22:19.30 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v tupone] by ChanServ |
| 22:22.16 | Erroneous | run it in a debugger |
| 22:23.39 | JeffM | why do they fear the debuger? |
| 22:23.59 | Constitution | Epyon: test server up at fairserve.bzflag.org:5258 |
| 22:24.00 | a_meteorite | they don't know how to run it |
| 22:24.11 | JeffM | he runs it for HIS app |
| 22:24.17 | Epyon | JeffM, simply because I never used VC++ debugger -_- |
| 22:25.01 | Epyon | JeffM, I don't, I just didn't bother to turn off the default setting :/ |
| 22:25.10 | JeffM | good lord, how did you debug your app? |
| 22:25.45 | Epyon | JeffM, I don't, I write flawless code ;] |
| 22:26.03 | JeffM | yeah I'm gonna call BS on that one |
| 22:27.10 | Erroneous | heh |
| 22:27.12 | Epyon | Anyway, it seems I've hit some limit |
| 22:27.18 | JeffM | find out what it is |
| 22:27.27 | JeffM | and ether we'll fix it, or you can fix it |
| 22:27.34 | Epyon | Reducing the file size to 2MB made it run |
| 22:27.38 | JeffM | DEBUGER |
| 22:27.42 | JeffM | it's your friend |
| 22:28.14 | Epyon | JeffM, I have no time allocated in my timeline for learning to use the debbuger and debuging bzfs :/ |
| 22:29.27 | JeffM | wow |
| 22:29.39 | JeffM | send me the map that crashes |
| 22:29.46 | Epyon | 17MB? xP |
| 22:29.50 | JeffM | so |
| 22:29.55 | JeffM | dude think, ZIP IT |
| 22:30.03 | Epyon | I'll put it up zipped on my server instead. |
| 22:30.10 | JeffM | I can't join a server |
| 22:30.12 | JeffM | send me the map |
| 22:30.20 | JeffM | or you mean web server? |
| 22:30.26 | Epyon | JeffM, I can't run it, I meant webserver :P |
| 22:30.29 | JeffM | ok |
| 22:30.36 | JeffM | it dies in client or server? |
| 22:30.42 | Epyon | server |
| 22:31.06 | JeffM | seriously you should learn how to use a debuger, that's a big thing of being a developer |
| 22:31.14 | JeffM | like year 1 stuff |
| 22:31.20 | Epyon | JeffM, I know how to use the freepascal one ;] |
| 22:31.22 | JeffM | and it ain't that hard |
| 22:31.26 | JeffM | the VC one is cake |
| 22:31.30 | JeffM | breakpoints and steps |
| 22:32.09 | JeffM | Epyon, 2.0.x or 2.1? |
| 22:32.27 | Epyon | 2.0.1 |
| 22:32.31 | Epyon | err |
| 22:32.35 | Epyon | 2.0.x |
| 22:32.36 | JeffM | 2.1 then |
| 22:32.37 | JeffM | oh |
| 22:32.39 | JeffM | ew |
| 22:33.00 | JeffM | well I'll see what it does in trunk |
| 22:33.08 | Erroneous | map stuff hasn't changed, it should do the same thing still |
| 22:33.12 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:33.38 | JeffM | it'll be a nice break from OpEvent callbacks :) |
| 22:33.45 | Erroneous | heh |
| 22:34.59 | Epyon | JeffM, http://bzflag.chaosforge.org/test.zip |
| 22:36.01 | Epyon | The inset windows were looking nice though xP |
| 22:36.03 | Epyon | http://bzflag.chaosforge.org/screenshots/bzfi0018.png |
| 22:36.42 | JeffM | it'll take me a sec or 30 to build the server |
| 22:37.37 | JeffM | hmmm she won't build |
| 22:37.43 | JeffM | something about worldgenerators |
| 22:37.48 | JeffM | files added? |
| 22:38.00 | Epyon | ? |
| 22:38.27 | awilcox | Epyon: I have to admit VC++'s debugger really is easy. |
| 22:38.35 | Constitution | Epyon: another error on the latest commit: http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/643620 |
| 22:38.41 | Epyon | ~log |
| 22:38.41 | ibot | hmm... log is as piece of wood, or a record, or the opposite of exponentiation |
| 22:38.49 | awilcox | at least for me. then again, I sometimes resort to disassembly to debug :P |
| 22:39.21 | awilcox | fairserver.bzflag.org:5258 |
| 22:39.22 | awilcox | er, oops |
| 22:39.36 | Epyon | Constitution, you've set up the server with the previous version? |
| 22:39.52 | Constitution | yes, but unfortunately I just destroyed the binary |
| 22:39.57 | JeffM | ahh bad incredebuild :) |
| 22:40.04 | Constitution | so map regeneration won't work until it builds again |
| 22:40.18 | Constitution | fairserve.bzflag.org:5258 |
| 22:41.29 | JeffM | Epyon, does it die when somone joins? or just on lauch? |
| 22:41.46 | Epyon | On launck |
| 22:41.53 | Epyon | It doesn't want to launch at all |
| 22:42.24 | JeffM | debug builds |
| 22:42.29 | JeffM | let me see if I can get it to crash in release |
| 22:42.45 | Epyon | You mean the map runs? |
| 22:42.52 | JeffM | well server starts normaly |
| 22:42.56 | JeffM | dosn't crash |
| 22:43.45 | JeffM | release build works too |
| 22:43.50 | JeffM | I'll get 2.0.x |
| 22:43.53 | Epyon | linux? |
| 22:43.56 | JeffM | no |
| 22:45.08 | Epyon | Check if it really runs. |
| 22:45.20 | Epyon | I get like 2 minutes before it dies. |
| 22:45.42 | Epyon | (it doesn't run howeer because the acceleration warnng doesn't appear) |
| 22:46.01 | JeffM | 2 min after a client joins? |
| 22:46.07 | JeffM | or just the server runing flat? |
| 22:46.19 | Epyon | no, I can't join at all |
| 22:46.25 | JeffM | ok |
| 22:46.34 | JeffM | I'll let it go, maybe it's during the octree build |
| 22:47.24 | Epyon | Constitution, I have no idea what that error is about o.O |
| 22:47.46 | Epyon | What's wrong with this? : IntVector* subdivdeFace(int fid, int count, bool horizontal); |
| 22:48.06 | Epyon | (where typedef std::vector<int> IntVector;) |
| 22:48.19 | JeffM | your runing a pointer to a vector? |
| 22:48.23 | JeffM | who allocates it? |
| 22:48.37 | Epyon | subdivideFace allocates |
| 22:48.48 | JeffM | what error do you get? |
| 22:49.09 | Epyon | I don't get any, Constitution gets : http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/643620 |
| 22:49.11 | Constitution | Epyon: I think IntVector is undeclared |
| 22:49.42 | Epyon | Constitution it's declared in common.h |
| 22:49.50 | Epyon | Duh, I get it now ^_^ |
| 22:50.18 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14767 10/trunk/bzwgen/common.h: IntVector |
| 22:50.27 | Epyon | Constitution, sorry :) |
| 22:50.32 | Constitution | Thanks :-) |
| 22:51.45 | awilcox | Epyon, Constitution: FUN! |
| 22:52.23 | Constitution | hopefully it will be a good testing ground |
| 22:56.58 | JeffM | got it to crash |
| 22:57.09 | JeffM | it dies in new |
| 22:57.55 | JeffM | and it's now allocated 490 megs |
| 22:59.17 | JeffM | how many ojbjects does it have? |
| 23:00.07 | Epyon | a... *LOT* O.o |
| 23:00.16 | Epyon | Oh, objects? |
| 23:00.17 | JeffM | help me out here, how many? |
| 23:00.20 | JeffM | yeah |
| 23:00.24 | JeffM | map elements |
| 23:00.25 | JeffM | objects |
| 23:00.26 | *** join/#bzflag jude- (n=jude@c-68-84-206-92.hsd1.ar.comcast.net) |
| 23:00.32 | JeffM | things with an END |
| 23:00.45 | Epyon | That's not the case, because it ran finely with the same amount before |
| 23:00.54 | Epyon | it's the complexity that kicks in |
| 23:01.05 | JeffM | ok, your not helping me at all |
| 23:01.08 | JeffM | have fun with it then |
| 23:01.56 | JeffM | it's asking to allocate 375480 bytes, and that is failing |
| 23:02.02 | JeffM | that's why it crashes |
| 23:02.33 | Epyon | I don't know how many objects... |
| 23:02.37 | Epyon | I can count though. |
| 23:02.52 | JeffM | don't worry about it, I'll do it |
| 23:04.10 | Epyon | grep sais 93601 but it counts endface as well :/ |
| 23:04.47 | jude- | discussing BZW parsing? |
| 23:05.02 | Epyon | jude-, I killed BZFS :P |
| 23:05.09 | jude- | oops |
| 23:05.14 | Epyon | With a 10 MB map |
| 23:05.17 | JeffM | he's got a big map that pukes bzfs |
| 23:05.24 | jude- | not good.... |
| 23:05.32 | JeffM | nope |
| 23:05.42 | Epyon | jude-, not good, especialy that I wanted to raise the complexity even more :/ |
| 23:06.00 | JeffM | 103 top level objects |
| 23:06.03 | JeffM | so it's not that |
| 23:06.05 | Erroneous | JeffM: is it trying to shove stuff in a vector? |
| 23:06.07 | jude- | Epyon: I know I joined in the middle of the conversation, so please forgive me for asking: what exactly are you trying to do? |
| 23:06.13 | JeffM | yeah |
| 23:06.17 | Erroneous | vectors have to be contiguous |
| 23:06.22 | Erroneous | so it'll die really fast |
| 23:06.31 | JeffM | it's the first element |
| 23:06.40 | JeffM | for (i = 0; i < materialCount; i++) { |
| 23:06.40 | JeffM | materials[i] = *matref; |
| 23:06.42 | Epyon | jude-, now we're trying to find why bzfs dies :P |
| 23:06.50 | JeffM | and it's a vector of pointers |
| 23:07.05 | JeffM | so it dosn't get that big fast |
| 23:07.06 | Erroneous | hm, vectors of pointers are usually safe |
| 23:07.06 | JeffM | it's wierd |
| 23:07.28 | jude- | are you sure the pointers are valid |
| 23:07.28 | jude- | ? |
| 23:07.32 | JeffM | it's wierd iit's in the material = operator |
| 23:07.39 | JeffM | jude-, it's in new |
| 23:07.52 | jude- | ahhh |
| 23:07.56 | JeffM | not in a deref |
| 23:08.16 | JeffM | ahhh, aliases is a string vector that's the last thing it did |
| 23:08.31 | Epyon | jude-, the only thing I did was adding inset windows :P : http://bzflag.chaosforge.org/screenshots/bzfi0018.png |
| 23:09.29 | jude- | how did you attempt to do that? |
| 23:09.37 | jude- | (the pic looks pretty cool, BTW) |
| 23:10.05 | Epyon | Well I did, but it dies :/ |
| 23:10.28 | Epyon | this pic is taken from a stripped down map (see the radar -- there are only a few buildings |
| 23:10.43 | jude- | yeah |
| 23:10.49 | jude- | but how are you adding inset windows? |
| 23:10.59 | jude- | just modifying the building mesh? |
| 23:11.05 | Epyon | jude-, yep |
| 23:11.11 | Epyon | it's a pure mesh |
| 23:11.21 | jude- | ....and that causes BZFS to die? |
| 23:11.57 | Epyon | Well, there's 10 MB of mesh data xP |
| 23:12.07 | a_meteorite | groups, ftw |
| 23:12.20 | jude- | that's just what I was about to recommen |
| 23:12.23 | jude- | *recommend |
| 23:12.24 | Epyon | a_meteorite, unfortunately not possible |
| 23:12.30 | jude- | why not? |
| 23:12.55 | JeffM | a group would not help this I think |
| 23:12.55 | JeffM | since groups are just expanded internaly |
| 23:12.58 | a_meteorite | heh |
| 23:12.59 | jude- | O.o |
| 23:13.02 | jude- | didn't know that |
| 23:13.03 | Epyon | Because when the road network will stop being checkerboard based, then each building will have to be different anyway |
| 23:13.42 | jude- | Epyon: right, but you could generate a mesh for an inlaid window, and group it multiple times with a building mesh that has holes in it where the windows would fit |
| 23:13.55 | JeffM | Epyon, try taking out all the matrefs |
| 23:13.57 | JeffM | see if that loads |
| 23:15.14 | Epyon | jude-, that would be *soooo* complicated, considering that I want L-systems to generate the buildings |
| 23:15.31 | *** join/#bzflag AWOSLappy (n=awilcox@unaffiliated/awosdev) |
| 23:15.46 | AWOSLappy | nbut I like the road being checkerboard |
| 23:15.56 | AWOSLappy | would there still be an option for that? |
| 23:16.20 | AWOSLappy | (I'm looking at the channel across the room while playing :P ) |
| 23:16.58 | JeffM | I think it's filliing up the refrences for the materials too big |
| 23:17.03 | JeffM | you have a matref for every face |
| 23:17.23 | Epyon | Yep, it works without them |
| 23:18.01 | JeffM | can you minimise the matrefs and break each object into a single section that uses a matref? |
| 23:18.51 | Epyon | This is next to impossible. |
| 23:18.59 | Epyon | Or wait... |
| 23:19.06 | Epyon | Possible :P |
| 23:19.17 | JeffM | yeah only change the matref when it's difrent |
| 23:20.11 | Epyon | In the output step I would have to sort the faces by matref |
| 23:20.26 | Epyon | I'll work on it now. |
| 23:21.55 | JeffM | I think the fix is simple inside BZ |
| 23:21.56 | Epyon | AWOSLappy, anyone else on the server except for you? |
| 23:22.11 | JeffM | but we ain't gonna release any more 2.0.x's |
| 23:22.33 | AWOSLappy | there were |
| 23:22.35 | JeffM | it dosn't check for unique aliases |
| 23:22.46 | AWOSLappy | "that broken tank next to you" and "Frodi" were on |
| 23:22.49 | JeffM | so it'll add up a string for every mat |
| 23:22.55 | AWOSLappy | I pwned them. |
| 23:23.37 | Epyon | JeffM, fix it in 2.1.x though :P |
| 23:23.41 | JeffM | I am |
| 23:23.44 | JeffM | it's testing now |
| 23:24.29 | JeffM | I'll commit the change to 2.0.x branch, it'd just be better if your app could sort |
| 23:24.51 | AWOSLappy | Epyon: but not anymore |
| 23:25.04 | AWOSLappy | Epyon: and just fyi, with OO it looks like I'm cheating when I'm not :P |
| 23:25.16 | AWOSLappy | I can back up AND shoot while inside buildings. |
| 23:26.11 | jude- | ...or rather, the Collider code that handles "mesh" objects :P |
| 23:26.35 | jude- | Epyon: are you adding "inside" and "outside" points to the buildings? |
| 23:26.41 | Epyon | jude-, actually it's the lack of inside/outside references in the current version :P |
| 23:26.58 | jude- | heh--that explains AWOSLappy's OO cheat :) |
| 23:27.08 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r14768 10/trunk/bzflag/src/game/BzMaterial.cxx: when adding an alias to a material, make sure it's a NEW alias so we don't keep building up a huge list of strings. |
| 23:27.57 | Epyon | ~JeffM++ |
| 23:28.14 | jude- | ~JeffM++ |
| 23:30.40 | AWOSLappy | ~JeffM++ |
| 23:30.42 | AWOSLappy | :D |
| 23:30.44 | AWOSLappy | jude-: hehe |
| 23:32.13 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r14769 10/branches/v2_0branch/bzflag/src/game/BzMaterial.cxx: when adding an alias to a material, make sure it's a NEW alias so we don't keep building up a huge list of strings. |
| 23:33.23 | AWOSLappy | wowsers, JeffM is unaffiliated? |
| 23:33.52 | AWOSLappy | he isn't n=JeffM@bzflag/uberleet-overworker/JeffM |
| 23:33.52 | AWOSLappy | ? |
| 23:35.14 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=troublem@c-98-197-19-35.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 23:41.35 | Epyon | Where's JeffM :/ |
| 23:41.54 | Epyon | I've got three matrefs per building and it STILL crashes :/ |
| 23:42.14 | Erroneous | AWOSLappy: bzflag does not have project cloaks |
| 23:42.46 | Erroneous | so update :) |
| 23:43.11 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm) |
| 23:44.25 | Epyon | JeffM, I reduced the matref count to three per mesh, and it still crashes. |
| 23:44.37 | *** join/#bzflag noyb (n=noyb@192.18.43.225) |
| 23:44.40 | JeffM | then your app isn't going to work on older servers |
| 23:44.58 | JeffM | get the latest bzfs and try it |
| 23:46.02 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03chaos-dev * r14770 10/trunk/bzwgen/ (Mesh.cxx common.h): Sorting output per material. |
| 23:46.45 | Epyon | JeffM, can I get a precompiled windows version? -_- |
| 23:46.58 | JeffM | nope |
| 23:47.12 | Epyon | *sigh* So much for the help from the mentors :P |
| 23:47.19 | JeffM | I can't build a full kit here |
| 23:47.21 | JeffM | I'm at work |
| 23:47.37 | JeffM | you have a compiler, you should have set yourself up to build BZ from the start |
| 23:47.42 | Epyon | JeffM, any idea why it still dails? |
| 23:47.44 | JeffM | I can make one when I get home, after I clean |
| 23:47.47 | Epyon | fails* |
| 23:47.55 | JeffM | yeah you still have too many for the vector |
| 23:48.11 | *** join/#bzflag tuxd00d (n=tuxinato@128.187.148.87) |
| 23:48.17 | Epyon | despite the matref reduction? There are LESS matrefs then in the version currently ran by Constitution |
| 23:48.23 | JeffM | it adds the name to a vector of strings for EVERY call to matref |
| 23:49.01 | Epyon | grep matref test.bzw -c = 143 |
| 23:49.22 | JeffM | that can turn into a big set of strings |
| 23:49.40 | Epyon | grep matref test.bzw -c = 3845 |
| 23:49.45 | Epyon | err |
| 23:49.52 | JeffM | that gets big fast ;) |
| 23:50.01 | Epyon | I meant: |
| 23:50.25 | JeffM | I mean you honestly never even took the time to build the main app for the project your working on? |
| 23:50.41 | Epyon | grep matref MysticValleyR1.3.bzw -c = 3845 VERSUS grep matref test.bzw -c = 143 |
| 23:51.02 | Epyon | So I don't believe it's the matrefs. |
| 23:51.17 | JeffM | dunno, after my change, it seems to run fine here |
| 23:51.31 | Epyon | 2.0.x? |
| 23:51.34 | JeffM | dev |
| 23:51.38 | JeffM | I'm at work |
| 23:51.44 | JeffM | I can't do large scale testing |
| 23:52.04 | JeffM | your a developer, this is part of your project, your' going to have to put some effort into it |
| 23:53.41 | Epyon | Don't get me wrong, JeffM, but searching for bugs in bzfs is not something I feel competent in :/ |
| 23:53.49 | JeffM | so |
| 23:54.00 | JeffM | if this was your job, you'd be expected to work with us |
| 23:54.10 | JeffM | and I'm not asking you to debug BZ |
| 23:54.14 | JeffM | just build the new code I changed |
| 23:54.17 | JeffM | as simple as that |
| 23:54.27 | JeffM | I'm trying to work with you |
| 23:54.35 | JeffM | but your acting more like a user, not a developer |
| 23:54.39 | Epyon | JeffM, ah, you didn't get my point :) |
| 23:55.11 | Epyon | I don't feel comfortable with the fact that my project wont work with the current release, that's all. |
| 23:55.11 | JeffM | you have to get around this to finish your project, so it dosn't mater how you "Fee" about compiling BZ |
| 23:55.23 | JeffM | Epyon, welcome to the real world |
| 23:55.29 | JeffM | it's a fact |
| 23:55.36 | JeffM | your GOING to have to deal with, if you like it or not |
| 23:55.49 | Epyon | anyway, what's the path for bzfs in svn? |
| 23:55.57 | Epyon | 2.0.x |
| 23:56.02 | JeffM | check the wiki |
| 23:56.04 | JeffM | it has all the info |
| 23:56.05 | Epyon | kk |
| 23:57.11 | JeffM | I mean we know matrefs have something to do with it, as the map worked when you removed them |
| 23:57.27 | JeffM | maybe it addes an alias per face per mat |
| 23:57.35 | Epyon | THIS is possible. |
| 23:57.41 | JeffM | are you still doing a matref per face after the sort? |
| 23:57.45 | JeffM | or a matref per object? |
| 23:57.48 | Erroneous | your project isn't expected to work with the current release anyway. all the soc stuff is targetted at 2.1. |
| 23:58.07 | Erroneous | 'cept maybe jude-'s |
| 23:58.35 | jude- | Erroneous: can you tell me where I can find out more about what new features will be added in 2.1 regarding the BZW format? |
| 23:58.45 | JeffM | jude-, the code |
| 23:58.47 | Erroneous | jude-: svn log :) |
| 23:58.53 | JeffM | but nohing has been added for worlds |
| 23:59.00 | jude- | kk |
| 23:59.01 | Erroneous | afaik, nothing yet |
| 23:59.21 | JeffM | I may have expanded some custom hooks that may be about it |
| 23:59.54 | Epyon | Erroneous, I know it must be probably the most hated question for you devs, and that probably I'll get the answer "when it's done", but when will the 2.2 release be? :P |
