| 00:00.04 | Erroneous | possible |
| 00:00.45 | Erroneous | Arsage: the SoC page on our wiki does have a list of mentors...you were asking earlier I think |
| 00:01.06 | JeffM2501 | we should just pull the flag idea |
| 00:01.11 | purple_cow | yes please |
| 00:01.12 | JeffM2501 | from the wiki |
| 00:01.14 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: I'll go with that |
| 00:01.23 | Erroneous | unanimous approval of those present :) |
| 00:01.24 | JeffM2501 | 3 is enogh for me :) |
| 00:03.21 | JeffM2501 | I'm a gonna break it into sections too |
| 00:04.57 | Erroneous | isn't it already in sections? |
| 00:05.18 | JeffM2501 | I mean into ideas we think are very important, and lesser ideas |
| 00:05.28 | JeffM2501 | perfered, and secondary |
| 00:05.37 | JeffM2501 | IRC and the laucher went secondary |
| 00:06.07 | JeffM2501 | some of the ideas are just more benifical to the project |
| 00:06.25 | Erroneous | they are just ideas, after all |
| 00:06.26 | JeffM2501 | so if you want to pull em :) |
| 00:06.44 | JeffM2501 | yeah but we are going to rank them on how important they are to us right? |
| 00:06.46 | Erroneous | the students should be responsible for determining which one they prefer and THEY think would be most valuable to us |
| 00:07.10 | TD-Linux | there is a new hud lock on indicator? is that just a bit of text, or does it show which tank is being locked onto |
| 00:07.11 | Erroneous | that's not the only ranking critereon |
| 00:07.11 | JeffM2501 | how are they going to determine that? |
| 00:07.23 | JeffM2501 | I know it's not but it is one right? |
| 00:07.34 | JeffM2501 | TD-Linux, ever fly a fighter jet? |
| 00:07.41 | TD-Linux | ... |
| 00:07.46 | TD-Linux | I'm not old enough to drive... |
| 00:07.52 | JeffM2501 | ever see top gun? |
| 00:07.57 | purple_cow | Erroneous: it seems kind of mean to not give them an idea of our preferences though |
| 00:07.58 | JeffM2501 | or any space anime |
| 00:08.04 | purple_cow | since we're the ones that rank the submissions |
| 00:08.09 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: by researching the game. by talking to us. whatever. I don't think we should discourage people from applying for an idea they think is a great idea, just because it's not our top priority. |
| 00:08.15 | TD-Linux | Yes... I've played X-Wing and similar a lot |
| 00:08.19 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, so that is just some research info |
| 00:08.21 | JeffM2501 | :) |
| 00:08.27 | JeffM2501 | call it documentation ;) |
| 00:08.33 | JeffM2501 | feel free to edit as you like tho |
| 00:08.40 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: imho categorizing them like that is FAR to strong a statement |
| 00:08.40 | TD-Linux | Most either have a bounding box projected and drawn in 2d, or a large circular target billboard |
| 00:08.43 | JeffM2501 | but I agree with purple_cow they shoudl know what things we value somehow |
| 00:08.53 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 00:09.12 | JeffM2501 | TD-Linux, it's not a box, but it's drawn on top |
| 00:09.24 | Erroneous | would you apply for something that's stated to only be a secondary priority, even if you thought it was a great idea and fit your talents well? |
| 00:09.26 | JeffM2501 | waypoint markers are a triangle,with the tip down |
| 00:09.43 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, dunno, if I could nail it, maybe |
| 00:09.54 | JeffM2501 | if we have enough slots we may fill them all |
| 00:09.57 | TD-Linux | are they on top of the mousebox like the flag markers? Or do they track the tank in 2D? Or do they scale in 3D? |
| 00:10.06 | JeffM2501 | full screen |
| 00:10.10 | JeffM2501 | not that stupid compas bar thing |
| 00:10.12 | TD-Linux | maybe I should just grab a version off cvs and see :) |
| 00:10.17 | JeffM2501 | they don't scale in distance |
| 00:10.23 | JeffM2501 | the lockon isn't done |
| 00:10.26 | JeffM2501 | just flag marker |
| 00:10.34 | JeffM2501 | I'll do autolook at tonight |
| 00:10.41 | JeffM2501 | and hopefully locokn |
| 00:10.43 | Erroneous | if nobody applies for those ideas because those ideas "aren't important", we'll have more applications for the same ideas...I'd prefer more variety, not more competition per idea. |
| 00:10.45 | TD-Linux | ok |
| 00:10.55 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, maybe then just sort them in order |
| 00:11.15 | JeffM2501 | or make them more general |
| 00:11.25 | Erroneous | sure, put the ones you think are most important at the top...there'll be a natural instinct for people to prefer the ones nearer the top |
| 00:11.25 | JeffM2501 | like "a cool way to do server to server comunication" |
| 00:11.29 | JeffM2501 | as what if jabber is better |
| 00:11.31 | JeffM2501 | instead of IRC |
| 00:11.37 | JeffM2501 | let them do the research |
| 00:11.40 | Erroneous | yup, they should be more general |
| 00:11.44 | JeffM2501 | edit away :) |
| 00:11.51 | Erroneous | again, to encourage more variety in the applications |
| 00:11.59 | Erroneous | more original thoughts |
| 00:12.01 | JeffM2501 | the otehrs are decently general |
| 00:12.04 | purple_cow | jabber is 10x better |
| 00:12.06 | Erroneous | less regurgitation |
| 00:12.15 | JeffM2501 | those ones brlcad added were very very very specific |
| 00:12.17 | purple_cow | IRC is a terrible, terrible, terrible protocol |
| 00:12.28 | JeffM2501 | you want to do it? or want me to? |
| 00:12.37 | JeffM2501 | your better at the engrish |
| 00:12.43 | *** join/#bzflag anomaly (n=mike@adsl-214-100-172.gnv.bellsouth.net) |
| 00:12.59 | Erroneous | I'll do the editing of the descriptions, if you'll put them in your preferred order...how's that? :) |
| 00:13.17 | JeffM2501 | the laucher is stupid, why not just make the game be able to do all that stuff dynamicly |
| 00:13.39 | JeffM2501 | it's like "our interface sucsk, don't fix it, but replace it" |
| 00:13.45 | Erroneous | not really |
| 00:14.00 | Erroneous | more like, do you really want to start up the game, just to see if someone you know is playing or not? |
| 00:14.30 | JeffM2501 | well THAT would be a feature of a freiends list/jabber/IRC/ external chat/status thingy |
| 00:14.38 | JeffM2501 | if that's the only reason for said laucher |
| 00:15.06 | *** join/#bzflag Proxima (n=lee137@pool-71-98-108-220.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 00:15.06 | Erroneous | there's a reason I did the xfire stuff :) |
| 00:15.18 | JeffM2501 | arn't there external xfire clients? |
| 00:15.27 | Erroneous | the xfire client is external |
| 00:15.40 | JeffM2501 | then we don't need our own luancher to do that |
| 00:15.42 | Erroneous | and it incorporates auto-join launching and so on |
| 00:15.56 | Erroneous | unfortunately it's windows-only |
| 00:16.32 | Erroneous | but hey, I exposed the interfaces, so if someone knows of a similar app for other platforms, it's easy enough to tie in |
| 00:19.00 | *** join/#bzflag orchid (n=bzgirl@unaffiliated/orchid) |
| 00:19.00 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v orchid] by ChanServ |
| 00:20.24 | JeffM2501 | there that should be better |
| 00:20.30 | CThinkTanker | I don't know much about IRC> can someone explain to me why some people are +V and some aren't? |
| 00:20.39 | JeffM2501 | cus we set them to be |
| 00:20.54 | JeffM2501 | in the case where we have to go moderated for troll/jerk issues. |
| 00:20.55 | CThinkTanker | right. and what makes a person eligible to be +V? |
| 00:21.07 | JeffM2501 | known to not be a jerk |
| 00:21.11 | JeffM2501 | we haven't had to use it in a long while |
| 00:21.16 | CThinkTanker | oh ok |
| 00:21.25 | JeffM2501 | we had a stint of jerks a while back |
| 00:21.37 | JeffM2501 | so some long time people just got it set in there account |
| 00:22.14 | CThinkTanker | lol |
| 00:22.21 | JeffM2501 | I don't feed trolls |
| 00:22.29 | Dessy | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:22.32 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, I cleaned it up |
| 00:22.38 | JeffM2501 | took out the sub sections |
| 00:22.47 | JeffM2501 | and put net before graphics as I think that is more important |
| 00:22.58 | *** join/#bzflag henriquev (n=henrique@20150157212.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 00:23.00 | Links2004[Links] | xchat 2.6.8-1 Windows XP [AMD/2.41GHz] hehe |
| 00:23.09 | JeffM2501 | what /msg dosn't work between you 2? |
| 00:23.22 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, and made a generic " Cross server communications system" |
| 00:23.24 | CThinkTanker | olá henrique. és brasileiro? |
| 00:24.45 | CThinkTanker | ok nvm. |
| 00:25.28 | JeffM2501 | probably just needs some verbage cleanup |
| 00:26.23 | *** join/#bzflag mithro (n=tim@lester.mithis.com) |
| 00:26.37 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], I assume you are looking for your patches to be done in a 2.0.x version/ |
| 00:27.13 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: alright |
| 00:27.37 | Links2004[Links] | my patches by for 2.0 an i have a patch make for 2.1 |
| 00:27.49 | JeffM2501 | you were asking me for a build this weekend |
| 00:27.58 | JeffM2501 | if that build is just your patches, I'd rather do that |
| 00:28.12 | JeffM2501 | then build your code and keep it as a less maintainable seperate thing |
| 00:28.24 | JeffM2501 | that way at least the work I'd do on it woudl benifit more people |
| 00:28.51 | *** join/#bzflag Dessy (n=Dessy@88.134.210.139) |
| 00:29.13 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97_ (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 00:29.14 | Links2004[Links] | o my englisch is bad |
| 00:29.36 | JeffM2501 | was the source you sent me more then your patches? |
| 00:30.20 | Links2004[Links] | yes a HUD flag show patch from SF |
| 00:30.48 | JeffM2501 | so if we applied those patches to 2.0.x and 2.1 and just did a 2.0.9 build for you, that would be what you need right? |
| 00:31.44 | Links2004[Links] | yes |
| 00:32.04 | JeffM2501 | remind me when I get home and I'll look into reviewing your patches then |
| 00:32.18 | CThinkTanker | I have an idea for a flag. a flag sort of like Masquarade but that changes your color only in radar. MQ is kind of easy to spot especially for people like me who look more at the radar than at the screen |
| 00:32.28 | Links2004[Links] | k |
| 00:32.34 | *** part/#bzflag Bz_Win (n=Kyle@CPE0016b6de59f3-CM000f9fac8236.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 00:32.51 | Links2004[Links] | i show me xchat on |
| 00:32.54 | CThinkTanker | lol really |
| 00:33.01 | TD-Linux | you mean MQ? |
| 00:33.03 | CThinkTanker | well personally I think MQ is useless |
| 00:33.29 | CThinkTanker | but if your color changed in the radar...that'd be a lot useful |
| 00:33.31 | TD-Linux | yes, and it just confuses newbies |
| 00:33.50 | *** join/#bzflag Links2004[Links] (n=Links200@88.134.210.139) |
| 00:33.51 | TD-Linux | MQ seems more like a cheat than a superpower |
| 00:34.18 | JeffM2501 | mq, cb, all of that |
| 00:34.27 | JeffM2501 | it may be neat, but I don't think it realy fools anyone |
| 00:34.32 | CThinkTanker | CB? |
| 00:34.37 | TD-Linux | cb is OK |
| 00:34.37 | JeffM2501 | color blind |
| 00:34.38 | CThinkTanker | yea exactly |
| 00:34.41 | CThinkTanker | ohhh |
| 00:34.57 | JeffM2501 | maybe I'll just pull em for 2.2 :) |
| 00:34.59 | JeffM2501 | see what people say |
| 00:35.16 | CThinkTanker | great! |
| 00:35.27 | TD-Linux | I personally think that all bad flags should die, but if they don't, CB is a good one |
| 00:35.27 | CThinkTanker | but would you consider a Radar MQ? |
| 00:35.34 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 00:35.37 | Erroneous | no |
| 00:35.41 | CThinkTanker | oh alright |
| 00:35.51 | JeffM2501 | cb is the best of the "mind affecters" |
| 00:36.01 | JeffM2501 | but I'd not realy shed a tear over it |
| 00:36.31 | TD-Linux | all the bad flags are boring |
| 00:36.41 | CThinkTanker | how about a flag that allows you to carry up to two flags? like L and WG. |
| 00:36.50 | a_meteorite | CThinkTanker: been denied |
| 00:37.01 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, possible with weapon arena |
| 00:37.02 | CThinkTanker | :P |
| 00:37.21 | TD-Linux | forward only, reverse only, left only, right only, reverse controls... very original :) |
| 00:37.23 | CThinkTanker | a flag that gives you two powers. |
| 00:37.27 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 00:37.37 | JeffM2501 | shot type and flag are now seperate |
| 00:37.50 | JeffM2501 | a plugin can set the shot type to a difrent shot then the flag would normaly give |
| 00:37.53 | CThinkTanker | wouldn't be very common throughout the maps, kind of like geno |
| 00:38.15 | JeffM2501 | TD-Linux, those should be effects that are "aquired" via misshaps |
| 00:38.18 | JeffM2501 | like you got shot |
| 00:38.23 | JeffM2501 | so your left tread is busted :) |
| 00:38.38 | JeffM2501 | but I doin't think I'll get that far |
| 00:38.38 | TD-Linux | :) |
| 00:38.40 | a_meteorite | that'd be kinda neat |
| 00:38.43 | TD-Linux | but that's no longer BZFlag |
| 00:38.44 | brlcad | so .. much .. log .. so .. many .. hilights |
| 00:38.47 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 00:38.59 | TD-Linux | Why isn't there a big bullet flag? That seems long overdue :) |
| 00:39.03 | purple_cow | bad flags are only boring when server operators give them a timeout of 4 seconds |
| 00:39.13 | Erroneous | ~purple_cow++ |
| 00:39.17 | JeffM2501 | I may be able to get it changed to where a bad flag is a status modifier that happens randomly on a flag pickup |
| 00:39.20 | JeffM2501 | then they each time out. |
| 00:39.23 | CThinkTanker | Jamming is cool |
| 00:39.27 | CThinkTanker | it really pisses me off. lol |
| 00:39.42 | JeffM2501 | like bad goodies in subspace |
| 00:39.46 | purple_cow | when you're colorblind or jammed for 3 minutes, then they actually have an impact on the game |
| 00:39.56 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 00:39.58 | TD-Linux | yeah |
| 00:40.05 | TD-Linux | I haven't seen many maps like that though |
| 00:40.05 | CThinkTanker | there are servers that allow 3 min bad flags? wow |
| 00:40.15 | purple_cow | CThinkTanker: not anymore =P |
| 00:40.17 | TD-Linux | maps/servers |
| 00:40.19 | purple_cow | because all the kids hate it |
| 00:40.39 | CThinkTanker | lol that's crazy. |
| 00:40.52 | JeffM2501 | it just means you have to actualy play, not spray |
| 00:40.59 | TD-Linux | what would be interesting is a map that has an easy route and a hard route, but the easy route prevents jumping and is littered with bad flags |
| 00:41.24 | CThinkTanker | would be very hard to play with CB for 3 mins |
| 00:41.25 | Erroneous | 3 mins just makes people rejoin |
| 00:41.38 | CThinkTanker | lol |
| 00:41.41 | JeffM2501 | that's why you make the server save there state for them |
| 00:41.43 | JeffM2501 | as a feature :) |
| 00:42.01 | JeffM2501 | in case of "accedental" disconects |
| 00:42.05 | JeffM2501 | yah know |
| 00:42.10 | Erroneous | yup, I know :) |
| 00:42.23 | JeffM2501 | just treat it as a death, and let them respawn |
| 00:42.56 | TD-Linux | bad flags don't stick through deaths, do they? |
| 00:43.07 | CThinkTanker | no |
| 00:43.17 | brlcad | tis no pipe dream :P |
| 00:43.22 | brlcad | purple_cow: good brl-cad |
| 00:43.24 | JeffM2501 | it was too specific |
| 00:43.25 | brlcad | er, brlcad |
| 00:43.28 | JeffM2501 | I made it more generic |
| 00:43.35 | CThinkTanker | well if that happened, it'd only be right if super flags sticked through deaths too |
| 00:43.37 | JeffM2501 | you were basicly saying "hook up libirc" |
| 00:43.40 | JeffM2501 | we voted |
| 00:43.44 | JeffM2501 | it was unanimous :) |
| 00:43.53 | brlcad | and they weren't just slapped up .. they've been discussed many times over the years |
| 00:43.57 | JeffM2501 | well no, it'd not stick, but you'd get a death |
| 00:44.18 | TD-Linux | JeffM2501: what would be the point of disconnecting, if you lose your score? |
| 00:44.25 | *** join/#bzflag Links2004[Links] (n=Links200@88.134.210.139) |
| 00:44.27 | TD-Linux | or are you talking about when state is saved? |
| 00:44.33 | JeffM2501 | TD-Linux, that'd the thing, we'd save state |
| 00:44.38 | JeffM2501 | score, team, etc.. |
| 00:44.45 | JeffM2501 | for like a couple min, in case you reconect |
| 00:44.51 | JeffM2501 | it'd be just like you died |
| 00:45.00 | JeffM2501 | would prevent many disconect abbuses |
| 00:45.04 | CThinkTanker | would it be really tough to integrate in the game a voice chat feature? |
| 00:45.06 | TD-Linux | sounds good, especially for finicky wireless card :) |
| 00:45.07 | JeffM2501 | like "geting my ass bacck to base" |
| 00:45.28 | *** join/#bzflag Links2004[Links] (n=Links200@88.134.210.139) |
| 00:45.33 | JeffM2501 | CThinkTanker, with our sound system, yes ish, with anotehr not so much, but there are better 3rd party apps for it. |
| 00:46.13 | JeffM2501 | I just compinded the IRC one, int a more general idea |
| 00:46.22 | CThinkTanker | true, like skype conference or yahoo chat |
| 00:46.37 | Erroneous | no, you removed one and modified the other ;) |
| 00:46.46 | brlcad | you can always "rank down" a flags proposal -- the idea was for someone to implement flags that have already been approved -- if we get enough slots to support them, then the more the merrier |
| 00:46.50 | JeffM2501 | for some values of "combined" :) |
| 00:47.10 | JeffM2501 | it was a weighted combination |
| 00:47.12 | Erroneous | brlcad: all of the ones we have now approved are what, a week, week and a half of work? |
| 00:47.24 | Erroneous | any given single one is an evening's work |
| 00:47.30 | JeffM2501 | Id' leave the flag stuff in the "add your idea here" |
| 00:47.38 | JeffM2501 | let them research it and propose it |
| 00:47.43 | JeffM2501 | by reading our lits and stuff |
| 00:47.59 | *** join/#bzflag Dessy (n=Dessy@88.134.210.139) |
| 00:47.59 | purple_cow | brlcad: seriously, IRC is bad |
| 00:48.06 | JeffM2501 | is it still raining |
| 00:49.08 | a_meteorite | I love the rain |
| 00:49.38 | a_meteorite | we got some up here |
| 00:49.48 | CThinkTanker | we need some here. and less wind. |
| 00:51.35 | brlcad | purple_cow: it's what most games DO no matter how much you hate it |
| 00:51.42 | purple_cow | use IRC? |
| 00:52.02 | brlcad | have a means to get on irc, yes |
| 00:52.12 | purple_cow | I've never seen a game that could get on IRC |
| 00:52.13 | brlcad | depends which of the two ideas, they were distinct |
| 00:52.18 | *** join/#bzflag Dessy (n=Dessy@88.134.210.139) |
| 00:52.53 | TD-Linux | we have some here. And wind too. |
| 00:53.14 | brlcad | most of the big-name games that come to mind have an embedded irc client (commercial games) |
| 00:53.24 | brlcad | i mean quakenet isn't there to talk about bunnies |
| 00:55.28 | purple_cow | it's not? |
| 00:56.25 | a_meteorite | purple_cow: only bunnies with pancakes on top of their heads |
| 01:00.43 | brlcad | JeffM2501: no love for the launcher? |
| 01:00.54 | brlcad | never said it had to be a separate app, the summary even said that |
| 01:01.06 | CThinkTanker | launcher? |
| 01:01.48 | brlcad | the idea is basically an optional windowed splash window with basic options for how to start bzflag |
| 01:02.28 | inchworm | what happens when you want to re-enter a game or change servers? |
| 01:02.52 | brlcad | whether to start windowed or full screen, what resolution, connect with bots, etc.. a means to provide graphical support for the various command-line options |
| 01:03.07 | brlcad | it's only app startup |
| 01:03.09 | CThinkTanker | oh |
| 01:03.20 | brlcad | and would like have a "don't show me this again" checkbox |
| 01:03.25 | CThinkTanker | much love for windowed/full screen option |
| 01:03.27 | inchworm | ahh |
| 01:03.35 | *** join/#bzflag wizart (n=nwizart@lvps87-230-8-217.dedicated.hosteurope.de) |
| 01:06.32 | CThinkTanker | is there like a keystroke you can use to minimize BZflag? I use alt + tab but that only works when I have something else running. |
| 01:07.55 | a_meteorite | F1 |
| 01:08.11 | CThinkTanker | oh alright. thanks. |
| 01:10.07 | brlcad | F12 is pretty minimizing |
| 01:10.16 | CThinkTanker | :)) |
| 01:11.22 | brlcad | it's really surprising that nobody has integrated a launching interface yet -- i mean i think I know of at least two others that have been written, DTR's included |
| 01:13.36 | a_meteorite | outburst? changed his name... the one that got masterbanned |
| 01:15.58 | CThinkTanker | would be very cool too if there was a feature which allowed us to save our favorite servers. |
| 01:16.10 | brlcad | heh |
| 01:16.18 | brlcad | Chestal added that today |
| 01:16.23 | CThinkTanker | reallY!?! |
| 01:16.30 | CThinkTanker | great! when can we get the next build? |
| 01:16.47 | brlcad | there isn't going to be a next build until 2.2 |
| 01:17.01 | brlcad | there will likely be testing builds though |
| 01:17.07 | CThinkTanker | oh ok. any idea of when that will be released| |
| 01:17.10 | CThinkTanker | ? |
| 01:17.14 | brlcad | nope |
| 01:17.19 | CThinkTanker | alright |
| 01:22.23 | *** join/#bzflag I_Need_Help (n=Outburst@pool-138-89-37-253.mad.east.verizon.net) |
| 01:23.21 | I_Need_Help | Hi |
| 01:23.28 | I_Need_Help | Are any devs on? |
| 01:23.32 | CThinkTanker | hi |
| 01:23.37 | I_Need_Help | Hi |
| 01:23.40 | *** join/#bzflag Links2004[Links] (n=Links200@88.134.210.139) |
| 01:23.42 | CThinkTanker | devs? |
| 01:23.43 | a_meteorite | yes, JeffM2501, brlcad, etc. |
| 01:23.53 | I_Need_Help | developers |
| 01:23.54 | a_meteorite | purple_cow, too |
| 01:24.01 | CThinkTanker | oh ok |
| 01:24.02 | I_Need_Help | Im the guy who was recently masterbanned |
| 01:24.31 | I_Need_Help | And i wanted to know if I could ask them to undo it or at least make the punishment less severe |
| 01:24.49 | brlcad | on what basis? |
| 01:24.51 | CThinkTanker | why were you masterbanned? |
| 01:24.53 | I_Need_Help | I am real sorry for doing what I did and it will never happen |
| 01:25.06 | I_Need_Help | for um.... speeding |
| 01:25.16 | a_meteorite | (cheat client) |
| 01:25.19 | CThinkTanker | ohhhhhhh |
| 01:25.23 | I_Need_Help | i used cheat engine |
| 01:25.23 | CThinkTanker | you were the fast guy |
| 01:25.30 | CThinkTanker | that was creepy, I must say |
| 01:25.30 | brlcad | you were warned by several admins, banned by several before being masterbanned, and even warned in here |
| 01:25.36 | *** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |
| 01:25.47 | I_Need_Help | I was warned I was going to be masterbanned? |
| 01:25.56 | brlcad | yes |
| 01:26.05 | I_Need_Help | by who |
| 01:26.10 | brlcad | by me actually |
| 01:26.18 | a_meteorite | brlcad: in all honesty... I had to explain to outburst how to even get in this channel |
| 01:26.32 | brlcad | a_meteorite: he was in here several days ago |
| 01:26.38 | a_meteorite | oh |
| 01:26.41 | I_Need_Help | Yeah, because my friend showed me it |
| 01:26.52 | I_Need_Help | And my friend was also using it when he slept over |
| 01:27.16 | brlcad | blurted some profanity and commented on how fun it is, I warned, you departed and continued, you were banned |
| 01:27.20 | I_Need_Help | You probally might have heard of him but I dont want him getting in any trouble |
| 01:27.32 | I_Need_Help | Yeah, that was my friend |
| 01:27.36 | I_Need_Help | I swear |
| 01:27.38 | brlcad | right |
| 01:27.48 | I_Need_Help | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:28.06 | brlcad | it doesn't matter who said what |
| 01:28.18 | I_Need_Help | But then why am I blamed for it |
| 01:28.40 | I_Need_Help | hey, he just happens to be here actually... |
| 01:28.49 | brlcad | well, you are responsible for your computer and your account, believe it or not |
| 01:29.08 | I_Need_Help | He made it for me and also hes my friend what am I gonna do to him? |
| 01:29.32 | I_Need_Help | Hes stubborn when he wants to do something hes gonna do it |
| 01:29.35 | brlcad | whatever you want to do to him, the issue really is just whether you're going to cause any more trouble |
| 01:29.42 | I_Need_Help | Im not |
| 01:29.53 | I_Need_Help | Ive been playing clean on mofo |
| 01:30.06 | I_Need_Help | You can ask optic |
| 01:30.09 | brlcad | if you are unbanned and do, it will be restored with a pretty much permanent spot on the master ban list |
| 01:30.36 | I_Need_Help | Yeah I will take responsibility for the next time it happens, which it wont |
| 01:30.51 | brlcad | on thin ice, so to speak |
| 01:31.15 | brlcad | really don't want to hear more complaints, it just hurts our community and the game environment |
| 01:31.18 | I_Need_Help | Well I really cant say much more except that I am really sorry and that it will NOT happen again |
| 01:32.35 | *** join/#bzflag Links2004[Links] (n=Links200@88.134.210.139) |
| 01:32.50 | I_Need_Help | Its not a complaint |
| 01:32.52 | I_Need_Help | Its a |
| 01:33.00 | I_Need_Help | um... |
| 01:33.09 | I_Need_Help | idk |
| 01:33.22 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10admin/master-bans.txt: remove Outburst from the list, giving a second chance, seems remorseful and indicated he won't use a cheat client on public servers again. |
| 01:34.02 | I_Need_Help | I wont |
| 01:34.24 | brlcad | that should take effect across the network within a few minutes |
| 01:34.54 | I_Need_Help | Thank you but its Outburst? |
| 01:35.18 | brlcad | it's your IP |
| 01:35.21 | I_Need_Help | ya |
| 01:35.24 | I_Need_Help | ok |
| 01:35.58 | I_Need_Help | well thanks and you can check up on me or whatever you guys do i wont be cheating or using bad lang or any sort |
| 01:36.07 | I_Need_Help | well maybe mofo but not cheating |
| 01:36.22 | I_Need_Help | is lang allowed on mofo |
| 01:36.23 | I_Need_Help | ? |
| 01:36.24 | brlcad | we don't have to, we'd hear about it |
| 01:36.32 | a_meteorite | I_Need_Help: yes it is |
| 01:36.39 | I_Need_Help | ok |
| 01:36.54 | a_meteorite | unless you're SUPER annoying with it. it's hard to be like that. |
| 01:37.04 | I_Need_Help | Noooo Im not like that |
| 01:37.27 | I_Need_Help | not like that guy in hepcat that was saying death to americans and jews after we capped the flag |
| 01:38.33 | I_Need_Help | Thanks you guys a lot |
| 01:39.21 | brlcad | welp, go play n' have fun .. that is the point ;) |
| 01:40.41 | I_Need_Help | KK Im gonna go pwn at mofo |
| 01:40.45 | I_Need_Help | hehehe |
| 01:41.01 | I_Need_Help | oh and btw is it bad to use a 2.04 client? |
| 01:41.16 | I_Need_Help | because i did a client query and someone was using a 2.04 client... |
| 01:41.20 | a_meteorite | no, it's not |
| 01:41.23 | blast007 | I_Need_Help: there really isn't a reason to use an older version, expecially on Windows |
| 01:41.30 | a_meteorite | client strings can be faked anyways |
| 01:41.30 | I_Need_Help | Well because |
| 01:41.38 | I_Need_Help | When i use to cheat |
| 01:42.04 | I_Need_Help | you know about that bdobson thing right? |
| 01:42.11 | blast007 | I_Need_Help: yes, we know.. |
| 01:42.14 | I_Need_Help | well |
| 01:42.22 | I_Need_Help | that was a 2.04 client |
| 01:42.30 | blast007 | and we determined it from the version |
| 01:42.32 | I_Need_Help | so i think he might of been using that |
| 01:42.32 | a_meteorite | that means nothing |
| 01:42.34 | I_Need_Help | oo |
| 01:42.35 | blast007 | no need to further discuss it |
| 01:42.39 | I_Need_Help | ok |
| 01:42.47 | I_Need_Help | ok im just a noob sorry |
| 01:43.02 | a_meteorite | even the build date means nothing, it just *helps* in identification (with use of other methods) |
| 01:43.07 | I_Need_Help | ok |
| 01:43.27 | I_Need_Help | Ill be waiting for boxy... see ya |
| 01:43.58 | a_meteorite | the fact that he was a regular boxy war player, and cheated, and I never saw it, blows my mind |
| 01:44.42 | blast007 | a_meteorite: he might not have at that time |
| 01:44.47 | *** join/#bzflag mithro (n=tim@lester.mithis.com) |
| 01:44.51 | a_meteorite | possibly |
| 01:44.58 | blast007 | it was only recently that we noticed the blatant activity |
| 01:45.06 | a_meteorite | heh, guess he got bored |
| 01:45.13 | a_meteorite | bad excuse :) |
| 01:46.43 | uso | ~bzflist |
| 01:47.01 | a_meteorite | ...? |
| 01:47.09 | blast007 | weee |
| 01:47.13 | uso | ;) |
| 01:47.57 | blast007 | can't SSH either |
| 01:48.04 | a_meteorite | fun stuff |
| 01:48.15 | blast007 | it'll probably be back in a short amount of time |
| 01:48.16 | uso | not even ping for me |
| 01:49.08 | CThinkTanker | the forums are down |
| 01:49.13 | blast007 | hehe |
| 01:49.17 | a_meteorite | no really?!!?! |
| 01:49.26 | blast007 | ~nuke a_meteorite |
| 01:49.38 | ibot | ACTION prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at a_meteorite ... B☢☢M! |
| 01:49.39 | CThinkTanker | yes |
| 01:49.39 | CThinkTanker | I'm trying to connect now |
| 01:49.39 | a_meteorite | CThinkTanker: your knowledge amazes me |
| 01:49.41 | Flash | Are the forums down? |
| 01:49.46 | Flash | Is global down? |
| 01:49.53 | a_meteorite | Flash: you forgot the exclamation mark |
| 01:50.02 | Flash | sorry |
| 01:50.15 | a_meteorite | your statement has been invalidated :P |
| 01:50.16 | CThinkTanker | this official GUleague match syas I need to register to play but I already have registered. what's going on? |
| 01:50.23 | Flash | but the exclamation points are pointless |
| 01:50.39 | a_meteorite | CThinkTanker: because global login is down, you won't be able to ID |
| 01:50.45 | a_meteorite | CThinkTanker: you also have to be added to GU's group, bzmail a GU admin |
| 01:50.48 | blast007 | CThinkTanker: they might have to add you to a group, or yeah, could be that the global stuff is down (unless you tried before too) |
| 01:50.50 | CThinkTanker | right but others were able to login |
| 01:50.55 | CThinkTanker | ohh |
| 01:50.56 | *** join/#bzflag Links2004[Links] (n=Links200@88.134.210.139) |
| 01:50.58 | *** join/#bzflag Proxima (n=lee137@pool-71-98-111-132.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 01:51.06 | a_meteorite | people will stay logged in if they join before global goes down |
| 01:51.30 | CThinkTanker | well I'm part of a team in GUleauge |
| 01:51.33 | CThinkTanker | league |
| 01:51.50 | CThinkTanker | does that mean that second step is done? |
| 01:52.10 | a_meteorite | pretty much. bzmail a GU admin asking to be in their global group |
| 01:52.13 | uso | no, you need to be added to the guleague group |
| 01:52.45 | CThinkTanker | alright |
| 01:52.49 | uso | maybe join #guleague and look if Birdie is still awake |
| 01:53.10 | uso | if not wrie a bzmail to either quantum dot or Birdie |
| 01:53.18 | uso | *write |
| 01:53.25 | CThinkTanker | alright, thanks |
| 01:53.29 | blast007 | ooo, interesting: From 209.51.192.129 icmp_seq=241 Time to live exceeded |
| 01:53.41 | a_meteorite | ditto |
| 01:53.43 | blast007 | looks like a router loop there |
| 01:54.27 | blast007 | dropping like flys |
| 01:54.27 | Dessy | Good night all! |
| 01:54.29 | blast007 | night |
| 01:54.36 | Flash | is the list server down !?! |
| 01:54.48 | blast007 | ~bzflist |
| 01:55.01 | *** join/#bzflag brlcad (n=sean@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:55.36 | blast007 | Flash: they're all on the same server ;) |
| 01:55.46 | blast007 | and they're all tied together |
| 01:56.05 | brlcad | well, list services aren't tied to forums :) |
| 01:56.21 | blast007 | brlcad: sure they are, at least a little |
| 01:56.26 | blast007 | they're tried to groups for -advertise |
| 01:56.56 | brlcad | hrm? howso |
| 01:57.02 | *** join/#bzflag Manu (n=jujibo@about/essy/JujiboHunter/Manu) |
| 01:57.02 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Manu] by ChanServ |
| 01:57.09 | blast007 | for the server list you mean? |
| 01:57.15 | brlcad | yes |
| 01:57.43 | blast007 | we use phpBB's groups, and -advertise will only show a server to members of that group |
| 01:58.11 | blast007 | so I'd sorta call that being tied to the forums ;) |
| 01:58.24 | brlcad | ah, i meant pulling http://my.bzflag.org/db/?action=LIST doesn't involve the forums |
| 01:58.31 | *** join/#bzflag Guu (n=supybot@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:58.41 | blast007 | it does, |
| 01:58.46 | blast007 | if they supply a username/password |
| 01:58.57 | brlcad | which is news to me |
| 01:59.00 | blast007 | it check what groups they are in for servers that specify -advertise |
| 01:59.21 | brlcad | that's nuts |
| 01:59.27 | brlcad | who did that :) |
| 01:59.46 | brlcad | though I see the purpose, and that's ultimately the driver. yada yada |
| 02:00.20 | blast007 | it's useful for doing registered only servers, since you can make it advertise to only registered users too ;) |
| 02:00.41 | brlcad | yeah |
| 02:00.50 | brlcad | still rather clumsy |
| 02:01.52 | L4m3r | what I want is an ability to HIDE servers from specific groups |
| 02:02.10 | blast007 | L4m3r: pw ;) |
| 02:02.34 | a_meteorite | hah |
| 02:02.52 | uso | but it would be nice to have an url which shows all servers |
| 02:03.07 | L4m3r | my.bzflag.org isn't good enough? |
| 02:03.24 | shorty114 | L4m3r: scroll up |
| 02:03.27 | blast007 | brlcad: also I think the functionality was also used to allow non-listed servers to use global auth |
| 02:03.57 | uso | iirc it does not show servers which are advertised to a group if you do not supply a valid user and password of the group |
| 02:04.05 | blast007 | right |
| 02:04.12 | blast007 | useful for league servers |
| 02:04.33 | shorty114 | having the whole auth system based on phpbb's groups seems kind of fragile |
| 02:04.51 | blast007 | it is :) |
| 02:04.52 | uso | but unsiutable for gathering statistics |
| 02:05.01 | blast007 | someone is playing with LDAP stuff though |
| 02:05.02 | shorty114 | what we need is a whole system |
| 02:05.16 | brlcad | and someone else is playing with bzauthd |
| 02:05.22 | blast007 | :) |
| 02:05.25 | brlcad | and someone else is working docs |
| 02:05.43 | brlcad | it's already in motion, but it's a big change, lots of piece |
| 02:05.49 | brlcad | uncle sam wants you! |
| 02:05.50 | shorty114 | we should have a bzflag.org API |
| 02:06.02 | L4m3r | perhaps what is needed is for global auth to use its own system, and modify our forum to run on top of that |
| 02:06.05 | blast007 | a SOAP interface :) |
| 02:06.10 | shorty114 | blast007: or a REST interface |
| 02:06.11 | brlcad | L4m3r: that's the plan |
| 02:06.21 | brlcad | and part of LDAP |
| 02:06.25 | shorty114 | L4m3r: similar to an API |
| 02:06.26 | uso | is there any other way to get the full server list? |
| 02:06.45 | *** join/#bzflag tcoppi (n=thisnuke@129.138.32.143) |
| 02:06.57 | blast007 | uso: "full" meaning...? |
| 02:07.10 | shorty114 | blast007: with "private" servers |
| 02:07.21 | uso | including those which do advertise to special groups |
| 02:07.22 | blast007 | if you grab http://my.bzflag.org/db/?action=LIST , that is the full list a non-registered user will see |
| 02:07.44 | blast007 | the ones not advertised to everyone are done so for a reason |
| 02:07.49 | shorty114 | yep |
| 02:08.00 | uso | blast007: i know, but i want to see all for statistics, not for inside of bzflag |
| 02:08.01 | shorty114 | and thus no list server command to see them if you're not special |
| 02:08.14 | blast007 | uso: bzflag uses the same list that you would |
| 02:08.15 | shorty114 | uso: i doubt those servers are used for general play |
| 02:08.31 | L4m3r | using a web-based API would slow down the forums significantly I would think |
| 02:08.37 | shorty114 | more likely they're for league matches and so on |
| 02:08.50 | L4m3r | but one for external services would be nice... doesn't one exist already? |
| 02:09.02 | uso | shorty114: that's why i want to include them into my statistics |
| 02:09.06 | blast007 | L4m3r: there is already an RSS feed from m.b.o |
| 02:09.16 | shorty114 | uso: i doubt they would affect your statistics greatly |
| 02:09.38 | shorty114 | L4m3r: not necessarily, as the calls would only be made for login |
| 02:10.05 | L4m3r | blast007: I'm talking about that web-based login that was used for stuff, like planet-mofo.com |
| 02:10.08 | uso | they will, as i have a gu league sum of online players ;) |
| 02:10.26 | blast007 | ah |
| 02:10.27 | shorty114 | that web-based login is much like openid |
| 02:10.28 | blast007 | yeah |
| 02:10.47 | L4m3r | shorty114: that's only if you don't want to share anything else between services. I like the idea of still being able to display info thru bzbb... |
| 02:10.50 | blast007 | shorty114: or like the .NET Passport |
| 02:11.11 | shorty114 | L4m3r: but you wouldn't *need* to view that through the forums... you would view it through the m.b.o interface |
| 02:11.13 | L4m3r | or the screen name service, or yahoo ID, or your driver's license ;) |
| 02:11.23 | shorty114 | which would draw it directly from the database |
| 02:11.33 | shorty114 | even the forums could be hacked to use another auth method |
| 02:11.39 | shorty114 | such as another table in the db |
| 02:11.44 | L4m3r | auth isn't the issue |
| 02:12.08 | shorty114 | i'm talking of an API for auth |
| 02:12.19 | L4m3r | come to think of it... aren't there plenty of portal CMS type systems for this? |
| 02:12.20 | shorty114 | so it can be accessed from the bzflag client, from 3rd party, etc. |
| 02:12.25 | shorty114 | much like google's accounts thing |
| 02:12.28 | shorty114 | they have an API now |
| 02:12.42 | shorty114 | IMO the biggest thing is moving off of phpbb |
| 02:13.01 | blast007 | L4m3r: Drupal has already been discussed |
| 02:13.08 | blast007 | it has an LDAP module |
| 02:13.20 | shorty114 | what was the verdict? |
| 02:13.33 | blast007 | though we'll have to change some stuff or write our own module to satisify the needs of the system |
| 02:13.56 | blast007 | shorty114: I don't know of any "verdict" |
| 02:14.05 | blast007 | it's part of a very large project |
| 02:14.08 | *** join/#bzflag Arsage (n=lee137@pool-71-98-111-132.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 02:14.31 | shorty114 | blast007: well, was drupal ruled to be what could be used? |
| 02:14.43 | blast007 | probably |
| 02:14.47 | blast007 | not my project ;) |
| 02:17.14 | CThinkTanker | hey birdie? |
| 02:18.46 | CThinkTanker | forums are up again! |
| 02:19.46 | brlcad | "ruled to be what could be used"? heh |
| 02:22.48 | shorty114 | the wikipedia article for what i google is always on the first page of results |
| 02:23.04 | *** join/#bzflag Quol (n=Quol@modemcable177.75-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 02:27.24 | CThinkTanker | either wiki or IMDb |
| 02:28.19 | *** join/#bzflag Legoguy_ (n=Legoguy@70.131.66.235) |
| 02:28.19 | shorty114 | yep |
| 02:32.47 | *** join/#bzflag BenUrban (n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban) |
| 02:33.24 | brlcad | L4m3r: there are plenty of CMS that do decent authentication management |
| 02:33.52 | brlcad | the trick, though is not tying to their particular representation too tightly, and even more importantly -- how to get at the auth data from the client |
| 02:34.15 | L4m3r | perhaps that should be looked into before we try to reinvent the wheel |
| 02:34.23 | brlcad | we don't want to have to always send people to a website in order to register .. when they're in the game ready to register |
| 02:34.35 | L4m3r | since most of those have smooth ways to integrate phpBB and whatnot |
| 02:34.46 | brlcad | it has been looked into, quite a lot |
| 02:34.51 | brlcad | we do plan to adopt a cms |
| 02:35.15 | *** join/#bzflag JLP (n=jlp@89-212-91-146.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net) |
| 02:35.37 | brlcad | or at least that's what i've been pressing for some time now, drupal has a rather nice pluggable authentication system |
| 02:36.58 | brlcad | the approach actually should be fairly minimal .. not really a big effort as it seems other than testing the various web connections to ldap (which is now mostly done) |
| 02:37.36 | *** part/#bzflag JLP (n=jlp@89-212-91-146.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net) |
| 02:38.03 | *** join/#bzflag Flash (n=jwmelto@unaffiliated/flash) |
| 02:41.06 | brlcad | heh, well regardless of whether he likes it -- we got a submission already for the launcher |
| 02:41.33 | L4m3r | lol |
| 02:42.40 | L4m3r | the irc thing has been killed? |
| 02:42.57 | *** join/#bzflag z_k (n=4847b20d@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 02:43.21 | lodxcol | is there/will there be an antispamkick perm? |
| 02:43.59 | brlcad | L4m3r: not if I can help it |
| 02:45.00 | brlcad | especially the server-to-server communications backend approach, but even the in-game client (totally separate projects) |
| 02:45.16 | brlcad | one thing tribes did that was really nice |
| 02:45.49 | brlcad | when you were in IRC and left to join a server, it indicated in irc where you went so folks could more easily collaborate |
| 02:46.20 | L4m3r | heh |
| 02:46.43 | brlcad | that really helped establish communication in the community -- you could talk on irc as needed to organize or whatever, and then go play |
| 02:47.14 | brlcad | served as a waiting room with a hint of knowledge about the game tied in |
| 02:47.42 | CThinkTanker | bye all |
| 02:47.50 | *** part/#bzflag CThinkTanker (i=Alse@bl4-165-239.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 03:12.48 | shorty114 | L4m3r: just for in-game chat? |
| 03:14.36 | brlcad | L4m3r: that was one of the suggestions |
| 03:14.59 | brlcad | just integrate irssi or mirc or somesuch, and use bz for rendering |
| 03:16.30 | lodxcol | is there an antispamkick permission? |
| 03:17.25 | a_meteorite | no, lodxcol |
| 03:17.41 | lodxcol | are there plans for one in the future? |
| 03:39.25 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright (n=awright@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 04:13.55 | *** join/#bzflag jude (n=jude@68.84.206.92) |
| 04:15.52 | jude | so, has anyone used texturematrix before? |
| 04:29.48 | *** join/#bzflag mithro (n=tim@lester.mithis.com) |
| 04:30.16 | delusional | you could say we have. |
| 04:37.27 | jude | I'm not sure how it works...could you refer some documentation to me? |
| 04:37.51 | jude | All I can find is the list of available options |
| 04:38.02 | jude | but not what they do, or how frequently they're used |
| 04:48.01 | SportChick | ~sushi brlcad |
| 04:48.10 | ibot | ACTION fishes madly all day long & brings the very best back, filets it carefully and serves brlcad the best, freshest sushi ever |
| 04:52.17 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=jeffm@pool-71-109-221-249.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 04:52.17 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 04:54.43 | jude | JeffM2501: I think I found a way to kill two birds with one stone |
| 04:55.26 | JeffM2501 | use a shotgun? |
| 04:55.49 | jude | If I were to use an existing 3D API in the editor (assuming my proposal is accepted), I would probably write it so that it would be so loosely connected, it could easily be integrated back into the BZFlag client, helping to accomplish another GSoC goal |
| 04:56.34 | JeffM2501 | posibly |
| 04:56.44 | jude | One of the features I was thinking of including was a way for the user to drive a mock tank around the level, to get a feel for it. If I could get that to work, it could be put back into BZFlag |
| 04:56.51 | JeffM2501 | tho the hooks for the engine are more then just the world for a game |
| 04:56.56 | JeffM2501 | but it would be a part of it |
| 04:57.02 | JeffM2501 | building the geometry for that engine |
| 04:57.06 | JeffM2501 | that's what you'd be able to save |
| 04:57.33 | JeffM2501 | driving a tank around is nice, tho it may be best to fire up a server and launch a cluent |
| 04:57.35 | JeffM2501 | client |
| 04:57.41 | jude | right, but that's a step closer to moving BZFlag to, say, CrystalSpace |
| 04:57.45 | JeffM2501 | otherwise you may find yourself duplicating the game :) |
| 04:57.49 | jude | yeah |
| 04:57.58 | JeffM2501 | and we don't know what engine we'll be going with |
| 04:58.00 | JeffM2501 | if any |
| 04:58.06 | JeffM2501 | we have a number of proposals |
| 04:58.10 | JeffM2501 | I'd leave it as an option |
| 04:58.20 | JeffM2501 | but be prepared for it to not be needed or used at this time. |
| 04:58.27 | jude | kk |
| 04:59.19 | jude | why not write a series of wrapper classes, abstracting the engine API from the client? |
| 04:59.32 | JeffM2501 | cus it's an assload for work :) |
| 04:59.46 | *** join/#bzflag Rawk (n=unknown@203.109.176.242) |
| 04:59.48 | jude | this is true... |
| 04:59.49 | JeffM2501 | our "engine" is mixed all over and thru the code |
| 04:59.54 | jude | so I've seen |
| 05:00.09 | JeffM2501 | and for all our lackings, it does work |
| 05:00.19 | jude | indeed, it does. |
| 05:00.24 | jude | quite well :) |
| 05:00.48 | JeffM2501 | I'd not go that far |
| 05:00.52 | JeffM2501 | for what we use it for, it works |
| 05:00.58 | JeffM2501 | it's not optimal |
| 05:00.59 | jude | that's what I meant |
| 05:01.09 | JeffM2501 | the issue is, we want to start to do more |
| 05:01.24 | JeffM2501 | but we don't have clear leadership in that area |
| 05:01.32 | JeffM2501 | ( or any IMHO ) |
| 05:01.38 | JeffM2501 | so it's going to be interesting |
| 05:01.47 | JeffM2501 | it'll come down to whoever actualy finishes it I'm sure |
| 05:02.10 | JeffM2501 | CS isn't my first choice for a 3rd party engine |
| 05:02.23 | jude | what do you recommend? |
| 05:02.23 | JeffM2501 | and I know it's not others ether. |
| 05:02.33 | JeffM2501 | recomend is not the right word |
| 05:02.47 | JeffM2501 | ogre would be a better fit then CS I think |
| 05:02.59 | JeffM2501 | but I'd also like to try irrlicht to see how it'd fit |
| 05:03.30 | JeffM2501 | but before I could say what one, I'd need to know exactly what things we want out of a 3rd party engine |
| 05:03.44 | blast007 | JeffM2501: so like, a plan? ;) |
| 05:03.45 | JeffM2501 | not just features in it, but features in our code to integrate |
| 05:03.48 | JeffM2501 | yeah a plan |
| 05:03.54 | JeffM2501 | it's such a big change, it needs one |
| 05:03.57 | blast007 | the p word! |
| 05:04.08 | blast007 | but yeah |
| 05:04.15 | JeffM2501 | even a consensus based plan |
| 05:04.24 | blast007 | a lot of the stuff could use a real defined plan |
| 05:04.30 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 05:04.59 | JeffM2501 | the current CS port is a huge powerplant |
| 05:05.15 | JeffM2501 | if that just gets droped in, it could stall a lot of people |
| 05:05.45 | JeffM2501 | but the only way to do it right is to get everyone to work on it |
| 05:06.16 | JeffM2501 | get a plan, get a consensus, have one person start it, breaking stuff, and then everyone else work on it till it's back again |
| 05:06.20 | JeffM2501 | or at least a group |
| 05:06.28 | jude | sounds like fun |
| 05:06.29 | JeffM2501 | leave it busted till it gets fixed right |
| 05:06.33 | JeffM2501 | wont' ever happen tho |
| 05:06.50 | JeffM2501 | not all open source projects have well defined leadership chains |
| 05:07.23 | jude | well, one of the things that could probably be done is the consolidation of the engine code into a few files, rather than having it spread across the entire project |
| 05:07.34 | JeffM2501 | yes that has to be done no mater what |
| 05:07.38 | jude | then a switch-over would be easier |
| 05:07.55 | JeffM2501 | problem is noone will take that task |
| 05:08.02 | JeffM2501 | as it'd be work that is lost |
| 05:08.06 | JeffM2501 | needed work |
| 05:08.17 | JeffM2501 | but you'd be moving/redoing code, that's final goal is to be deleted. |
| 05:08.27 | JeffM2501 | so it'll only get done during engine replacement |
| 05:08.27 | jude | JeffM2501, if my editor proposal doesn't get accepted, I'll apply for that tas |
| 05:08.39 | jude | *task |
| 05:08.51 | JeffM2501 | we don't do applications |
| 05:08.54 | JeffM2501 | you do what you want |
| 05:09.03 | JeffM2501 | we don't have asignments |
| 05:09.12 | JeffM2501 | you'll notice our SF page never gets used |
| 05:09.20 | jude | I meant, for GSoC |
| 05:09.28 | JeffM2501 | you won't have time |
| 05:09.30 | jude | otherwise, yeah, I'd just submit a patch |
| 05:09.38 | JeffM2501 | if you want submit 2 proposals |
| 05:10.03 | jude | kk |
| 05:10.07 | JeffM2501 | gives you a better chance of geting a slot |
| 05:10.12 | brlcad | doesn't get used? |
| 05:10.19 | brlcad | or you mean the tasking system |
| 05:10.24 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 05:10.29 | JeffM2501 | we don't do task management on SF |
| 05:10.39 | JeffM2501 | cus we don't manage tasks :) |
| 05:10.41 | brlcad | "sf page" gets used quite a bit ;) |
| 05:10.51 | JeffM2501 | yeah, bad wording on my part |
| 05:10.51 | brlcad | that's not why it doesn't get used |
| 05:10.55 | brlcad | it's a crap interface |
| 05:11.06 | JeffM2501 | I don't think we'd do it if it had a better one |
| 05:11.14 | JeffM2501 | dosn't seem to fit our set style |
| 05:11.21 | brlcad | maybe, but mostly folks don't even try because it sucks |
| 05:11.27 | brlcad | i've tried using it |
| 05:11.29 | brlcad | it's painful |
| 05:12.06 | JeffM2501 | I've used it, interface is fine, just it's very forgetable |
| 05:12.06 | brlcad | the trackers are more well thought out |
| 05:12.06 | brlcad | but they're not qwell suited either |
| 05:12.06 | JeffM2501 | and we rarely use those other then patches |
| 05:12.16 | JeffM2501 | it's mostly just a dumpbox for patches for us |
| 05:12.42 | brlcad | naw man.. seriously, the interface is really inefficient .. |
| 05:12.51 | brlcad | it has the features |
| 05:12.53 | brlcad | and "can", but is really inefficient at it |
| 05:12.57 | JeffM2501 | I think if a project had a stronger management core, they could do well with the tools, as they are better then nothing if you have active data to manage. |
| 05:13.19 | JeffM2501 | there are better systems tho, you are right |
| 05:13.21 | brlcad | nothing wrong with a dumpbox |
| 05:13.28 | JeffM2501 | nope |
| 05:13.33 | JeffM2501 | cept when it overflows :) |
| 05:13.45 | brlcad | even then.. they're not going anywhere |
| 05:13.50 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 05:14.23 | JeffM2501 | I was just saying we don't do asignments, people don't apply for stuff in general for our tasks, it's just a do it if you want thing |
| 05:14.43 | brlcad | yep |
| 05:14.49 | JeffM2501 | it'll be intersting to see how SoC will affect us with asignments and tracking and all |
| 05:14.56 | brlcad | i frankly don't think assignments would work for a group our size |
| 05:15.30 | brlcad | a bit larger, and it'd quickly change -- you sort of need a couple people dedicated per area |
| 05:16.11 | JeffM2501 | yes we are a bit small |
| 05:16.18 | brlcad | plus the overhead of actually having some sort of "stronger management core" is when there's actually enough activity and change going on to warrant it |
| 05:16.18 | JeffM2501 | not a big pool to asign too |
| 05:17.05 | brlcad | plus just everyone has their own interests |
| 05:17.18 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 05:17.40 | JeffM2501 | I wonder if any projects do OptIn asignments |
| 05:17.54 | JeffM2501 | where you have a pool of developers that sign up for sections they are interested in |
| 05:18.02 | brlcad | i'm not sure I know of an open source that actually assigns things unless there's 100% (and I mean absolute) acceptance amongst everyone to the goals, to the extent that it's basically just picking tasks off a to-do list |
| 05:18.06 | JeffM2501 | and are asigned a task they can accept or reject in a timeframe |
| 05:18.32 | brlcad | it's business that you're assigned, and that's because they pay you and can make you do it |
| 05:18.33 | JeffM2501 | wonder how firefox does there big features |
| 05:18.38 | brlcad | can't make anyone do jack here |
| 05:18.53 | JeffM2501 | yeah I know, you can't make people do stuff. |
| 05:19.22 | JeffM2501 | that's why I ponder an opt in system |
| 05:19.29 | JeffM2501 | where you can talor the active tasks |
| 05:19.30 | jude | how many people are behind BZFlag? |
| 05:19.35 | JeffM2501 | I'm probably overthinking it |
| 05:19.40 | brlcad | probably |
| 05:19.41 | JeffM2501 | jude depends on what you mean by that |
| 05:19.58 | brlcad | jude: see the AUTHORS file for a historic view |
| 05:19.59 | JeffM2501 | there are bout 4-5 people who are rather active commiters |
| 05:20.02 | brlcad | some more active than most |
| 05:20.10 | JeffM2501 | there are a HUGE number that commited over time. |
| 05:20.22 | JeffM2501 | as the authors show |
| 05:20.23 | brlcad | it includes timeframes |
| 05:21.06 | JeffM2501 | recently it's been dtr, brlcad, tupone, ts, and myself doing commits |
| 05:21.07 | brlcad | as for committers, it changes year to year, but fairly steady |
| 05:21.17 | JeffM2501 | with others doing there stuff when needed |
| 05:21.22 | JeffM2501 | I've slowed down I know |
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| 05:21.40 | jude | I see |
| 05:21.53 | JeffM2501 | your maintainer is not very active at all |
| 05:21.58 | JeffM2501 | but that's another story |
| 05:22.16 | brlcad | jude: here is a recent snapshot that has commiters per year: http://bzflag.bz/statcvs/cvs.html |
| 05:22.50 | JeffM2501 | you've made non snarky comments |
| 05:22.54 | JeffM2501 | when you remenence :) |
| 05:23.31 | purple_cow | hmm |
| 05:23.37 | purple_cow | my username actually appears on every year but this one |
| 05:23.44 | brlcad | hehe |
| 05:23.54 | purple_cow | except for 2000/2001, I guess |
| 05:24.07 | JeffM2501 | what did you do last year? |
| 05:24.17 | brlcad | that bot has a pretty long name |
| 05:24.18 | JeffM2501 | just gatorade |
| 05:24.19 | purple_cow | JeffM2501: probably something stupid |
| 05:24.26 | JeffM2501 | well that's a given man :) |
| 05:24.34 | purple_cow | hehe |
| 05:24.42 | brlcad | did devil dude ever wise up? |
| 05:24.56 | JeffM2501 | who? |
| 05:25.04 | brlcad | diablo in 3d |
| 05:25.12 | JeffM2501 | who? |
| 05:25.20 | brlcad | some guy pestering purple_cow |
| 05:25.45 | purple_cow | I haven't seen him on irc in a couple years |
| 05:25.54 | JeffM2501 | diablo has been done in 3d |
| 05:25.56 | JeffM2501 | a couple times |
| 05:26.01 | brlcad | had him convinced that davidtrowbridge was some sort of automatic commit bot |
| 05:26.11 | JeffM2501 | oh THAT GUY |
| 05:26.12 | SportChick | heh |
| 05:26.23 | JeffM2501 | stupid bot |
| 05:26.55 | JeffM2501 | and said he was now the owner of bzflag |
| 05:28.14 | brlcad | jude: you've seen the manpage yes? |
| 05:28.15 | JeffM2501 | jude |
| 05:28.16 | JeffM2501 | they are |
| 05:28.17 | brlcad | it should all be in there |
| 05:28.18 | jude | yes |
| 05:28.19 | purple_cow | JeffM2501: heck no |
| 05:28.32 | jude | I've read the man page |
| 05:28.33 | brlcad | it's all used |
| 05:28.38 | JeffM2501 | they are used for animated color changes |
| 05:28.48 | JeffM2501 | and modifying the UV mapings on an object |
| 05:29.05 | brlcad | the kids utilize just about any feature exposed to them, it's like crack |
| 05:29.07 | brlcad | good or bad |
| 05:29.08 | JeffM2501 | the primitives other then the mesh don't have user define UVs |
| 05:29.18 | JeffM2501 | so you use the matrix to modfy them |
| 05:29.23 | JeffM2501 | or animate them |
| 05:29.35 | jude | ah. that makes sense |
| 05:30.06 | JeffM2501 | a lot of maps make use of the primitives |
| 05:30.12 | JeffM2501 | few are mesh only |
| 05:30.21 | purple_cow | JeffM2501: looks like I made all of 4 commits last year |
| 05:30.29 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 05:30.35 | JeffM2501 | were you drunk those days? |
| 05:31.37 | purple_cow | I don't think so, all but 1 are fixing things that bugged me |
| 05:31.39 | brlcad | hmm.. apparently I did overlap with cobraa1 .. at least in year |
| 05:32.22 | purple_cow | two commits to the .desktop file, one to let me force windowed mode through the config file |
| 05:32.37 | purple_cow | the other one was assigning copyright on some python thing ;) |
| 05:32.41 | JeffM2501 | I wish I knew if I had code in BZ Before Tim did :) |
| 05:34.03 | JeffM2501 | he's got active as 99 |
| 05:34.10 | JeffM2501 | tho I don't know if he did anything before that |
| 05:37.18 | purple_cow | anyhow, enough reminiscing |
| 05:37.34 | purple_cow | brlcad: dude, I've written a popular IRC client. it's no fun |
| 05:37.46 | brlcad | i wouldn't write one, that'd suck |
| 05:37.50 | brlcad | i'd just integrate one |
| 05:38.49 | brlcad | you know, you pulled the launcher, but someone really liked it -- already made a submission |
| 05:38.56 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 05:39.01 | JeffM2501 | I read it too |
| 05:39.17 | JeffM2501 | not the most origonal submission |
| 05:39.35 | brlcad | i'd hope not, tis a simple task |
| 05:39.49 | JeffM2501 | I mean it was basicly word for word what was in the wiki |
| 05:40.49 | JeffM2501 | we'll see how it does :) |
| 05:41.00 | brlcad | yeah, it needs more -- feedback and direction, in particular |
| 05:41.18 | JeffM2501 | my point on the launcher is, why not make the game just have all those options in a beter inteface :) |
| 05:41.25 | brlcad | though the guy being experienced with the code is a plus |
| 05:41.41 | brlcad | i never said not make them part of the game |
| 05:41.49 | brlcad | even the original idea on the task page said that |
| 05:42.02 | JeffM2501 | I know, that's my problem with it, its not part of the game :) |
| 05:42.17 | JeffM2501 | it should not need another app to help it out ;) |
| 05:42.38 | brlcad | er, but that's my point -- the idea wasn't that it had to be another app |
| 05:42.47 | JeffM2501 | I know |
| 05:42.52 | JeffM2501 | oh |
| 05:43.02 | purple_cow | just so you know, I almost bust out laughing at work at the wiki entry for that ;-) |
| 05:43.06 | JeffM2501 | well laucher seems to indicate another app or something |
| 05:43.13 | purple_cow | "should not pull in any big dependencies.... use CEGUI...." |
| 05:43.29 | JeffM2501 | a dependecny pig :) |
| 05:43.50 | brlcad | they were all just ideas, i also said "use BZ" too |
| 05:44.08 | JeffM2501 | to me it was worded oddly |
| 05:44.16 | brlcad | just didn't want to see a submission for a Cocoa or MFC launcher |
| 05:44.32 | JeffM2501 | it sounded like it should have just been better menu/ interface in the game. |
| 05:44.37 | purple_cow | except it actually makes the most sense to use native UI for that sort of thing ;-) |
| 05:44.41 | JeffM2501 | the term "laucher" dosn't fit well |
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| 05:44.59 | purple_cow | (IMO) |
| 05:45.01 | brlcad | well, the intent of launcher is specific to the interface -- implies a windowed interface |
| 05:45.10 | brlcad | that's what's drasticly different |
| 05:45.14 | JeffM2501 | to do the same thing the game does? |
| 05:45.25 | JeffM2501 | I'm trying to see why you'd use that instead of the game? |
| 05:46.00 | brlcad | JeffM2501: you've certainly seen the startup dialogs for other games |
| 05:46.13 | JeffM2501 | like? |
| 05:46.16 | JeffM2501 | MMOs? |
| 05:46.20 | JeffM2501 | with login info |
| 05:46.24 | JeffM2501 | and autopatchers |
| 05:46.26 | brlcad | all sorts |
| 05:46.40 | JeffM2501 | most other games I play blam righ to the game |
| 05:46.47 | JeffM2501 | they may do a splash |
| 05:46.48 | JeffM2501 | that's it |
| 05:47.08 | brlcad | i bet you hit the "don't show me this again" in a lot of them |
| 05:47.12 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 05:47.18 | JeffM2501 | give me an example, I'll go look |
| 05:47.31 | JeffM2501 | last game I played was Supremee commander |
| 05:47.38 | JeffM2501 | it boots right to the game |
| 05:47.40 | JeffM2501 | in sane defaults |
| 05:47.43 | purple_cow | just because all the other lemmings do something... |
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| 05:48.00 | brlcad | purple_cow: quite true |
| 05:48.01 | JeffM2501 | I'm ok if it's difrent, but it should be for a reason |
| 05:48.13 | purple_cow | seems like if you made it so it could switch between all those options at runtime (most notably, windowed<->fullscreen), then you're done |
| 05:48.20 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 05:48.28 | JeffM2501 | why have 2 interfaces for it |
| 05:48.42 | JeffM2501 | or if you don't why force a relauch to change it |
| 05:49.15 | JeffM2501 | maybe it's a nix/mac thing cus it's hard to get sane defaults. |
| 05:49.25 | purple_cow | don't blame me |
| 05:49.27 | brlcad | it's more akin to asking the player (probably only on first use) what their preference is -- what resolution, fullscreen or not |
| 05:49.37 | JeffM2501 | sure, do that in game |
| 05:49.41 | JeffM2501 | as a first launch thing |
| 05:49.54 | JeffM2501 | using the in game menus, so they know where to change it |
| 05:50.01 | JeffM2501 | if they wish in the future |
| 05:50.04 | brlcad | that would work, cept for the delays |
| 05:50.15 | JeffM2501 | delays? |
| 05:50.29 | brlcad | it takes a long time to switch contexts |
| 05:50.42 | JeffM2501 | what do you mean? |
| 05:50.51 | JeffM2501 | to go from full to window? |
| 05:50.56 | brlcad | to go from full to windowed at least on os x under sdl takes a solid 10-15 seconds |
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| 05:51.03 | JeffM2501 | WOW |
| 05:51.10 | JeffM2501 | but still that's a rare time thing |
| 05:51.21 | brlcad | well, him.. maybe not quite that long.. but it is *several* seconds |
| 05:51.34 | JeffM2501 | not that way on windows |
| 05:51.37 | purple_cow | that's kind of crazy |
| 05:51.43 | JeffM2501 | most games just use alt+enter to togle |
| 05:51.49 | JeffM2501 | all the MMOs do |
| 05:51.56 | JeffM2501 | go windowed when you loose focus |
| 05:51.58 | brlcad | if seen similar on linux on some configs but not on others |
| 05:52.09 | JeffM2501 | still it sonds like a rare time thing |
| 05:52.25 | JeffM2501 | your not swaping a large number of times per session :) |
| 05:52.46 | JeffM2501 | and if that's a deal we fix it by fixing that speed, not adding another interface to set it ;) |
| 05:52.53 | brlcad | well, I know i'm in the minority, but I actually do swap quite a bit |
| 05:53.28 | JeffM2501 | then if we just implement an ALT+enter dynamic method for you, your good |
| 05:53.35 | JeffM2501 | if it's not the right mode, swap it |
| 05:53.42 | JeffM2501 | instead of being asked each time |
| 05:53.45 | brlcad | that's not a speed that can be improved upon from what I've seen -- most full-screen apps take a few seconds to swap modes |
| 05:53.46 | DTRemenak | doesn't F1 or something swap? |
| 05:53.53 | JeffM2501 | if it's a first time ask, then that dosn't change your situation at all. |
| 05:53.57 | purple_cow | perhaps whatever bug is causing it to take so long could be fixed? |
| 05:54.00 | purple_cow | I know that's a crazy suggestion |
| 05:54.19 | JeffM2501 | it's probalby that OSX "fade" thing it does |
| 05:54.32 | brlcad | like I said, it's *all* fullscreen apps, not just bz |
| 05:54.53 | purple_cow | the fusion guys at work have it going to fullscreen really quick... |
| 05:54.54 | brlcad | so you can fix it if you like, but good luck with that |
| 05:55.20 | JeffM2501 | my dislike for it was the sugestion of adding stuff like server, and callsign, realy then that's just moving our existing interface elsewhere |
| 05:55.22 | brlcad | i bet they're doing full-screen windows, not full-screen mode |
| 05:55.28 | JeffM2501 | cus we don't need 2 ways to do it. |
| 05:55.44 | purple_cow | I think they're turning off the compositor and everything |
| 05:56.05 | brlcad | ahh, i could see that, get deep into some of the window server api |
| 05:56.17 | brlcad | don't imaging sdl folks touching that anytime soon |
| 05:56.20 | JeffM2501 | unless launch time for the app is too long. |
| 05:56.34 | JeffM2501 | we don't load much at startup now that we do images as we use em |
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| 05:58.23 | brlcad | i also just simply like the idea of a splash screen, that might hide the half-second or whatever it takes to start up now, but would give the chance do things like the dmg backgrounds per release |
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| 05:58.25 | JeffM2501 | "it's like adding audio support to MSPaint" |
| 05:58.29 | JeffM2501 | sure you can do it, but WHY? |
| 05:58.31 | brlcad | similar to the gimp splash |
| 05:58.52 | JeffM2501 | what does it do? |
| 05:58.54 | brlcad | oh please, it's not that far fetched |
| 05:59.01 | JeffM2501 | oh I know |
| 05:59.04 | JeffM2501 | it's just a funny saying :) |
| 05:59.09 | JeffM2501 | and I had to find a reason to use it |
| 05:59.15 | brlcad | heh |
| 05:59.24 | purple_cow | the gimp splash is there because it takes a heck of a long time to load all the data |
| 05:59.36 | JeffM2501 | that's what most splashes hide |
| 05:59.45 | brlcad | purple_cow: true, but it's also actually enjoyable to see the new pictures each release |
| 05:59.45 | JeffM2501 | how long is our average load time? |
| 05:59.57 | DTRemenak | we don't load everything we use |
| 06:00.12 | DTRemenak | our "load time" is distributed into joining a server |
| 06:00.26 | JeffM2501 | my debug version fires up in like 10 seconds |
| 06:00.49 | JeffM2501 | we can load a font first and slap up "loading" if you want ;) |
| 06:00.53 | JeffM2501 | and a prety picture |
| 06:01.14 | brlcad | timings are 4-6 seconds here |
| 06:01.32 | JeffM2501 | now I can agree that our main menu isn't great |
| 06:01.44 | DTRemenak | our main menu is great! :P |
| 06:01.49 | JeffM2501 | and maybe that should have more used stuff like your login, and an option to just join the servers |
| 06:01.51 | JeffM2501 | join last |
| 06:01.58 | brlcad | there's a lot of setup we don't do simply because it would slow down startup |
| 06:02.00 | JeffM2501 | or hit the list, and then join right from the list |
| 06:02.08 | DTRemenak | oh come on, it's not that hard to hit "join game" |
| 06:02.29 | JeffM2501 | it's not hard, but if your a click counter, or in need of a launcher |
| 06:02.36 | DTRemenak | then add the server to the commandline |
| 06:02.38 | JeffM2501 | I'm just going with the stuff presented by the laucher |
| 06:02.59 | DTRemenak | launcher is good for recovering when you've screwed up your config, or changed your system configuration |
| 06:03.05 | JeffM2501 | well that's not clicky, and if that's our answer then a single click laucher that did the last server you did, would be better |
| 06:03.30 | JeffM2501 | if the laucher is a recovery tool, sure, then we make it a seperate recovery tool |
| 06:03.31 | DTRemenak | and yeah, windows has a "safe mode" icon or whatever (which is itself cheesy) |
| 06:03.33 | JeffM2501 | that is used when needed. |
| 06:03.36 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 06:03.49 | JeffM2501 | but that's a tool to fix a problem |
| 06:03.58 | JeffM2501 | a bug we should hopefully never get into |
| 06:04.04 | brlcad | the launcher wouldn't interfere with any normal use -- it really does just 1) let a first time user answer the question of whether they want fullscreen or windowed (as well as resolution/size), 2) allow for a additional resource load masking, and 3) provide artwork |
| 06:04.20 | brlcad | that's really it.. if you don't think those are sufficient reasons, then there will be no convincing |
| 06:04.36 | JeffM2501 | 2 dosn't seem to be an issue |
| 06:04.49 | purple_cow | arrrr |
| 06:04.54 | JeffM2501 | 1) is marginal if we do sane defaults and get most users right, I think we are cool on windows, dunno about the others. |
| 06:04.54 | brlcad | i said sufficient, not necessary |
| 06:04.58 | purple_cow | the ff12 camera keeps spinning around and making me dizzy :( |
| 06:05.07 | JeffM2501 | we can do 1 as part of the installer on windows if we want |
| 06:05.30 | brlcad | which makes this the cross-platform equivalent then |
| 06:05.37 | JeffM2501 | and for #3 I can't see google paying somone 4.5k so we can blit a picture ;) |
| 06:06.10 | JeffM2501 | is the current fullscreen/startup choice on first launch a big issue? |
| 06:06.14 | DTRemenak | yeah, I'm not seeing this as a 3-month project... |
| 06:06.16 | JeffM2501 | I am not aware that it is, but I may not know |
| 06:06.37 | JeffM2501 | cus hell a platform native dialog can do that sucker on first launch :) |
| 06:06.53 | JeffM2501 | IIRC even SDL has a yes/no messagebox |
| 06:06.57 | brlcad | until you require them to be able to click in the window with a mouse and still use bz's gui code |
| 06:07.01 | brlcad | then it's a 3 month project |
| 06:07.04 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 06:07.08 | DTRemenak | not really |
| 06:07.24 | JeffM2501 | that's strething it |
| 06:07.48 | JeffM2501 | a laucher/config manager for the server... THAT is another story. |
| 06:07.48 | brlcad | and you're also intimately familiar with the code :P |
| 06:08.23 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: there...combine the two...that ought to be closer to 3 months work |
| 06:08.45 | brlcad | it really is more like two months work, maybe two and a half |
| 06:08.46 | JeffM2501 | I'd still rate it low, but it'd be more usefull I think |
| 06:08.51 | DTRemenak | and would let us rip out the lame in-game start stuff |
| 06:08.57 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 06:09.04 | DTRemenak | or rather, let them do it |
| 06:09.13 | JeffM2501 | I'd rather have the other ideas first, but that would at least be usefull |
| 06:09.29 | brlcad | JeffM2501: similarly, you could really just see it as you said -- improve bzflag "pre-game" launching (i.e. all the menus) |
| 06:09.46 | JeffM2501 | that is a better project idea |
| 06:09.58 | purple_cow | redoing the internal gui stuff is a *great* project idea |
| 06:10.00 | JeffM2501 | re-eval and optimise our menu system |
| 06:10.01 | brlcad | to me that's sort of still the same idea :) |
| 06:10.03 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 06:10.10 | JeffM2501 | it wasn't worded that way |
| 06:10.13 | brlcad | at least as it was worded, ya'll just read into it |
| 06:10.19 | JeffM2501 | by using laucher you make it seem like an app that lauches BZ |
| 06:10.32 | JeffM2501 | what else is a "laucher" |
| 06:10.33 | brlcad | it could just as well have been that for all I care |
| 06:10.41 | JeffM2501 | apple invented an app called "the launcher" |
| 06:10.45 | JeffM2501 | it lauched other apps |
| 06:11.11 | brlcad | i mean, there's how many bz launchers out there now? i think i've seen at least three |
| 06:11.19 | JeffM2501 | where? |
| 06:11.35 | brlcad | one was pretty darn elaborate, on the forums |
| 06:11.47 | brlcad | DTRemenak: didn't you have one too? |
| 06:11.49 | JeffM2501 | the question to ask then is why do they exist? cus our UI sucks? |
| 06:11.52 | DTRemenak | brlcad: server |
| 06:11.54 | JeffM2501 | he had a server one |
| 06:11.55 | brlcad | combination |
| 06:11.59 | JeffM2501 | I've seen a lot of server ones |
| 06:12.12 | DTRemenak | yeah, it could launch the client, but just as an autoconnect feature for the server you just launched |
| 06:12.24 | JeffM2501 | but the dude that did the proposal for it and the flags was a rip from the article |
| 06:12.26 | DTRemenak | could also do bzadmin the same way |
| 06:12.32 | brlcad | one i'm thinking on the forums was client, sort of a bzspy |
| 06:12.36 | JeffM2501 | under the timeframe it just basicly says "i dunno" |
| 06:13.42 | JeffM2501 | I am realy intersted to see what we get by this weekend tho |
| 06:13.50 | JeffM2501 | it's nice to see 6 allready |
| 06:14.10 | brlcad | really should put up at least another useful idea or two |
| 06:14.17 | brlcad | like DTRemenak said.. breadth is a good thing |
| 06:14.43 | DTRemenak | I didn't have a problem with the launcher being up there, though it'd be tough to write a proposal for it that I'd rate well |
| 06:15.07 | brlcad | that was pretty much a given even for me, given the competition ideas |
| 06:15.25 | JeffM2501 | wiki does have history :) |
| 06:15.27 | brlcad | it's was just a "hm, here's an idea that would be useful to some" |
| 06:15.49 | brlcad | undoubtedly needing more rewording given the kickback |
| 06:16.23 | DTRemenak | hm, did anyone consider posting the oft-suggested web interface for bzfs? |
| 06:16.34 | JeffM2501 | ooo add one that does a server side ANTI-AOL filter |
| 06:16.37 | JeffM2501 | for chat :) |
| 06:16.40 | brlcad | ooh right *that* is the one I couldn't remember the other day |
| 06:16.46 | brlcad | i knew i was forgetting an idea |
| 06:16.51 | JeffM2501 | tha'd be good |
| 06:17.00 | DTRemenak | there are lots of ideas out there for that that could easily extend it to a full summer's project |
| 06:17.38 | DTRemenak | and it's a pretty different skill focus than most we have up there now |
| 06:19.07 | brlcad | they have 3 days to see and write a proposal for it still |
| 06:19.12 | brlcad | undoubtedly with a rush at the end |
| 06:19.28 | brlcad | boo hiss |
| 06:19.35 | brlcad | you got 3 hours on me |
| 06:19.44 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, we were talking and we think there should be somewher we can mark on there proposals what there IRC name is too, if they've been here |
| 06:19.44 | DTRemenak | if nobody's added it by the middle of tomorrow morning, I'll write it up |
| 06:19.51 | JeffM2501 | as that shows a willingness to comunicate. |
| 06:20.08 | DTRemenak | and lets us grep the logs for more information |
| 06:20.52 | brlcad | yeah, I was thinking something similar -- could outright ask them in a comment what their nick is |
| 06:21.25 | brlcad | jude: remember to put that in yours :P |
| 06:21.29 | JeffM2501 | anything to get the info |
| 06:21.46 | JeffM2501 | goes a long way to showing dedication and com skills |
| 06:23.17 | *** topic/#bzflag by brlcad -> http://BZFlag.org || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Help || Paste to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9453 || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || http://fisheye1.cenqua.com/browse/bzflag/bzflag || BZFlag is participating in GSoC: http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code || GSoC students -- please include your irc nick in your proposal |
| 06:24.46 | DTRemenak | "If you have talked with us on IRC about your SoC proposal, please *include your IRC nickname somewhere in your proposal.*" |
| 06:25.33 | DTRemenak | I'd say no |
| 06:25.34 | brlcad | or just leave em guessing |
| 06:25.44 | brlcad | yeah, probably best |
| 06:25.57 | brlcad | could be a real winner on the last day, wouldn't want to discourage |
| 06:26.07 | JeffM2501 | does it say that it's ok to submit more then one, but you'll only get one |
| 06:26.10 | jude | brlcad: my IRC nick? |
| 06:26.19 | JeffM2501 | jude in your proposal |
| 06:26.27 | jude | kk |
| 06:26.29 | JeffM2501 | so we can know you have the guts to come on IRC and ask :) |
| 06:26.47 | jude | lol |
| 06:26.52 | JeffM2501 | some don't |
| 06:27.14 | JeffM2501 | it shows you took the initive to come and talk about your idea. |
| 06:27.40 | brlcad | and interact and hang around and have some semblance of communications skills and don't abuse the rotflol's ponies!? talk |
| 06:27.47 | jude | even if I was newbish about it :) |
| 06:28.20 | DTRemenak | newbish is ok, we expect that |
| 06:28.33 | brlcad | even outright ig'nant |
| 06:28.46 | brlcad | so long as you're interested, willing, excited, etc |
| 06:28.51 | DTRemenak | jude: our manpages suck :P |
| 06:28.55 | JeffM2501 | our M is not F |
| 06:29.57 | DTRemenak | friendly...read the friendly manual ;) |
| 06:30.02 | jude | ah |
| 06:30.32 | purple_cow | we have an M? |
| 06:31.03 | JeffM2501 | anyone got a 2.1 client from before chestal's checkin? |
| 06:31.16 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: well...kinda :) |
| 06:31.27 | JeffM2501 | can you join a server? |
| 06:31.35 | JeffM2501 | all I nee to do is look at a tank |
| 06:31.45 | DTRemenak | yeah, it should be able to join |
| 06:32.28 | DTRemenak | what server? |
| 06:32.35 | JeffM2501 | the one with a player :) |
| 06:32.45 | DTRemenak | hm, that does make it easier :) |
| 06:32.50 | JeffM2501 | was the first one |
| 06:32.53 | JeffM2501 | brads |
| 06:37.05 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/ideas.txt: hud marker for team flag isn't an idea, it's a FACT! |
| 06:37.06 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/AUTHORS: pat is dead, let him lie. |
| 06:38.06 | brlcad | DTRemenak: beat ya to it, added an initial stab |
| 06:38.18 | brlcad | aww *sniff* |
| 06:38.33 | JeffM2501 | WOW |
| 06:38.35 | brlcad | tis supposed to be historic |
| 06:38.44 | JeffM2501 | cia is hella slow |
| 06:38.46 | brlcad | not current |
| 06:38.56 | JeffM2501 | I want the name to die ;) |
| 06:39.02 | brlcad | it is dead |
| 06:39.05 | brlcad | you can't change the past |
| 06:39.25 | JeffM2501 | patlboar was never my SF name |
| 06:39.34 | DTRemenak | realnames yes |
| 06:39.43 | brlcad | it's all informative |
| 06:39.43 | JeffM2501 | I'd keep it using SF names at the most |
| 06:39.50 | JeffM2501 | as that deals with the sources |
| 06:39.53 | brlcad | "oh yeah, i remember a patlabor..." |
| 06:40.06 | JeffM2501 | I mean people play under a lot of names, we arn't gonna put all the aliases in there |
| 06:40.11 | brlcad | not necessarily, a lot of the sources are irc-only |
| 06:40.12 | JeffM2501 | is erronious in there? :) |
| 06:40.25 | brlcad | that's something relatively recent |
| 06:40.29 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 06:41.17 | Erroneous | Nickname: Erroneous << ONLINE >> Registered: 2 years 21 weeks (4h 0m 16s) ago |
| 06:41.48 | brlcad | by the way, the HUD markers on the side of the display are busted for me |
| 06:41.48 | JeffM2501 | side? |
| 06:41.48 | brlcad | that point to the flag |
| 06:42.05 | *** join/#bzflag Legoguy_ (n=Legoguy@70.131.66.235) |
| 06:42.05 | *** join/#bzflag Manu (n=jujibo@about/essy/JujiboHunter/Manu) |
| 06:42.05 | *** join/#bzflag Pommes (n=Pommes@about/essy/frenchy/Pommes) |
| 06:42.05 | *** join/#bzflag deprecated (n=deprecat@c-24-18-19-17.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 06:42.05 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Manu] by irc.freenode.net |
| 06:42.06 | JeffM2501 | what do they do? |
| 06:42.07 | brlcad | they .. point to the flag |
| 06:42.07 | brlcad | team flag |
| 06:42.07 | JeffM2501 | I mean how are they busted |
| 06:42.07 | brlcad | like the tiny one |
| 06:42.08 | brlcad | ahh |
| 06:42.13 | JeffM2501 | I know what they are suposed to do :) |
| 06:42.13 | JeffM2501 | I wrote them |
| 06:42.29 | DTRemenak | Izzy says that's not a good argument :P |
| 06:42.30 | brlcad | well, when the flag is behind me and to the right, it shows up on my left |
| 06:42.43 | JeffM2501 | yeah, that needs some math help from smart people :) |
| 06:42.47 | JeffM2501 | behind is "odd" |
| 06:42.56 | brlcad | it's basically on the wrong side and disappears altogether at a certain angle |
| 06:43.14 | brlcad | like it's mirrors |
| 06:43.21 | brlcad | er, mirrored |
| 06:43.50 | DTRemenak | how are you determining the angle? |
| 06:44.01 | JeffM2501 | it calls the GL projection code |
| 06:44.10 | JeffM2501 | using the matrixes |
| 06:44.19 | JeffM2501 | take a look at drawWaypointMarker |
| 06:44.28 | JeffM2501 | in the hudRenderer |
| 06:45.10 | JeffM2501 | it takes a dot product between the heading and the vector to the point to see if it's behind |
| 06:45.17 | JeffM2501 | tho I'm not sure if it's right |
| 06:45.23 | brlcad | hmm.. "would allow players from one server to send chat messages to players on other servers" .. that actually wasn't scoped/intended originally |
| 06:45.27 | JeffM2501 | where the hell did 0.866 come from as a test |
| 06:45.43 | DTRemenak | brlcad: he combined the two irc proposals you put in |
| 06:45.54 | JeffM2501 | to make them more general |
| 06:45.56 | DTRemenak | one of which did explicitly mention player to player comm |
| 06:45.58 | JeffM2501 | add stuff if I missed it |
| 06:46.14 | JeffM2501 | but know we do have an IRC relay plugin for the server allready |
| 06:46.16 | brlcad | yeah, just joining an irc channel to talk |
| 06:46.27 | brlcad | it mentioned server-to-server comm |
| 06:46.51 | brlcad | and from irc-to-in-game |
| 06:46.53 | JeffM2501 | what would servers say to each other? "man players suck" :) |
| 06:47.09 | brlcad | sort of a global bzadmin |
| 06:47.24 | brlcad | ability to see all activity localized |
| 06:47.25 | JeffM2501 | just via IRC? |
| 06:47.30 | brlcad | control servers and perform actions from irc |
| 06:47.34 | JeffM2501 | mehh |
| 06:47.45 | L4m3r | I only see one issue there brlcad |
| 06:47.50 | JeffM2501 | the plugin can do that on a per server basis right now |
| 06:47.54 | brlcad | there's a plugin that does this and is pretty popular |
| 06:47.55 | DTRemenak | like "Support for using off line apps for chat and friends list access as well as server management"? |
| 06:48.17 | brlcad | the extension is all the setup required to get it working for all servers |
| 06:48.20 | JeffM2501 | what's wrong with keeping it a plugin? |
| 06:48.28 | JeffM2501 | since it'd be optional |
| 06:48.33 | L4m3r | control enough servers from an irc channel, brlcad, and freenode ops will think you're running a botnet ;) |
| 06:48.37 | brlcad | it's not a matter of it being a plugin or not |
| 06:49.11 | brlcad | it's a matter of being able to go to #bzglobal or whatever, and seeing activity of all servers flowing |
| 06:49.13 | JeffM2501 | why add the dependency to the server for servers that don't need/want it ;) |
| 06:49.18 | brlcad | that would be incredibly useful imho |
| 06:49.23 | JeffM2501 | you want to make it manditory? |
| 06:49.36 | JeffM2501 | or at least defaulted? |
| 06:49.47 | brlcad | of course not, like everything else just optional but defaulted perhaps |
| 06:49.53 | JeffM2501 | I see |
| 06:50.05 | JeffM2501 | so IRC instead of a web system tied to the list |
| 06:50.13 | brlcad | what I had in mind was the servers would join one server-specific channel and one global |
| 06:50.22 | L4m3r | I really am liking what brlcad was saying about players being able to hang in irc and join games together |
| 06:50.37 | JeffM2501 | or jabber |
| 06:50.37 | brlcad | they'd effectively join a bot that would be tied into auth or somesuch so admins could perform actions and others could just query |
| 06:50.41 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03davidtrowbridge * 10bzflag/AUTHORS: 2007 contribution |
| 06:50.42 | L4m3r | combine this with a launcher and it could completely change how people play |
| 06:51.04 | JeffM2501 | not sure IRC is the best system for a friends list type app |
| 06:51.06 | DTRemenak | xfire does all that...friends list, launch to join friends, chat with people in-game, etc |
| 06:51.12 | JeffM2501 | as there are better IM systems for that |
| 06:51.17 | brlcad | L4m3r: i've actually talked to freenode staff about this .. we'd have to coordinate a little |
| 06:51.21 | L4m3r | the launcher can do that though, right? |
| 06:51.37 | brlcad | though a lot of the discussions were with lilo directly .. would have to restart the flame with other staff |
| 06:51.43 | brlcad | but then we have SportChick to advocate |
| 06:51.51 | L4m3r | :\ |
| 06:52.03 | JeffM2501 | so you'd make the laucher an IRC client? |
| 06:52.13 | JeffM2501 | to check your budies? |
| 06:52.14 | brlcad | heh, /me wouldn't |
| 06:52.16 | DTRemenak | heh, there goes the quick loading |
| 06:52.19 | L4m3r | no, but it could talk to a service that sits on irc |
| 06:52.20 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 06:52.32 | JeffM2501 | wheel v 2235.0 |
| 06:52.46 | JeffM2501 | why not do it in game |
| 06:52.53 | JeffM2501 | or with a an IM client |
| 06:52.55 | JeffM2501 | like jabber |
| 06:52.59 | JeffM2501 | and we host a jabber server |
| 06:53.07 | JeffM2501 | then we get cross chat too |
| 06:53.08 | DTRemenak | jabber or irc, the concept is the same |
| 06:53.12 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 06:53.19 | purple_cow | jabber is a much better option than IRC |
| 06:53.33 | JeffM2501 | you know how long it takes some systems to get into freenode? |
| 06:53.38 | brlcad | tribes had it on their top-menu iirc, but fully separated from what would effectively be our join game section |
| 06:53.54 | DTRemenak | doesn't take long at all if you're running identd |
| 06:54.14 | JeffM2501 | I'm all for a friends list, but I'm not sure IRC is the best, I'd like to see other proto's evaluated. |
| 06:54.28 | DTRemenak | yeah, I'd say let the student propose the exact methods |
| 06:54.31 | JeffM2501 | links to exising chat/IM apps would be a pluss |
| 06:54.34 | brlcad | part of the benefit would be having it be on the same net we're on |
| 06:54.40 | JeffM2501 | see who's playing on my phone! |
| 06:55.06 | L4m3r | I don't know about direct interaction with a chat protocol for the friendslist |
| 06:55.09 | JeffM2501 | gtalk is a jabber client too :) |
| 06:55.19 | L4m3r | I am aware of that ;) |
| 06:55.53 | JeffM2501 | damn, no updated servers for 2.1 |
| 06:56.06 | L4m3r | if we want fast loading we can do all the friendslist stuff internally, and run it as a service on top of the chat proto that we end up choosing |
| 06:56.27 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: ehh? |
| 06:56.29 | JeffM2501 | or do friends list on top of listing |
| 06:56.33 | JeffM2501 | chestal changed proto |
| 06:56.34 | DTRemenak | mine should be running |
| 06:56.38 | brlcad | having it be one a different net would kill most of the efficiency benefits for me, jabber would make me not care about the feature at all for that matter (not really a bias, just don't want to mess with the setup or run additional apps) |
| 06:56.41 | JeffM2501 | did you update Today |
| 06:56.46 | DTRemenak | does automatically |
| 06:56.51 | JeffM2501 | wasn't running |
| 06:57.06 | JeffM2501 | didn't list just now |
| 06:57.23 | JeffM2501 | your average user dosn't use IRC, brlcad so they'd have to set up other apps |
| 06:57.38 | JeffM2501 | if we do it in game, that is less of an issue |
| 06:57.45 | L4m3r | um, I don't think I know ANYONE who uses jabber regularly lol |
| 06:58.02 | L4m3r | but then I lack friends, so... :P |
| 06:58.13 | DTRemenak | L4m3r: seriously nobody you know uses gtalk? |
| 06:58.21 | L4m3r | not that I talk to regularly |
| 06:58.24 | DTRemenak | wow |
| 06:58.51 | L4m3r | or at least not primarily. there are so many damn clients now that most people I know use gaim or trillian or kopete |
| 06:58.52 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r a lot of IM clients supor it tho |
| 06:58.57 | brlcad | that's actually the point -- the server would just join automatically if it could |
| 06:58.59 | JeffM2501 | trillain gaim, etc.. |
| 06:59.07 | *** join/#bzflag DTRemenak (i=DTRemena@about/essy/CrazyCoder/DTRemenak) |
| 06:59.08 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v DTRemenak] by ChanServ |
| 06:59.28 | brlcad | that's also part why there's really two things talking about here.. one is this global bzadmin of sorts and another is just basic in-game chat |
| 06:59.28 | DTRemenak | mmm, crashy crashy irc |
| 06:59.32 | JeffM2501 | what type of "useage" do you want to get out of the servers? |
| 06:59.40 | L4m3r | I'm actually quite torn on having an ingame chat client too |
| 06:59.47 | JeffM2501 | and how would we prevent users from going and spaming all the servers with chat and rewquests? |
| 06:59.50 | DTRemenak | Preparing build ... ERROR: aclocal failed |
| 06:59.56 | brlcad | i'm not strongly tied to in-game chat for players -- I think they'd absolutely love it, but meh personally |
| 07:00.22 | DTRemenak | brlcad: does autogen dump a log somewhere? |
| 07:00.29 | L4m3r | yeah, I'd rather use a Real Client (tm) as I do now |
| 07:00.30 | brlcad | not by default |
| 07:00.40 | brlcad | DTRemenak: run autogen.sh --verbose |
| 07:00.51 | L4m3r | and I don't want to load up a screwy fullscreen BZFlag UI to chat either |
| 07:00.56 | L4m3r | :P |
| 07:01.22 | brlcad | you're also familiar with irc, and have established use |
| 07:01.42 | brlcad | to the players, it's more just a big waiting room where they can interact |
| 07:01.44 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/ (HUDRenderer.cxx playing.cxx): show markers on players in ID range. |
| 07:01.54 | JeffM2501 | oh, so THAT one is fast :) |
| 07:01.58 | brlcad | without being on some server disrupting the game or talking via pm 1-on-1 |
| 07:02.04 | JeffM2501 | that should also fix your "behind" issue |
| 07:02.07 | JeffM2501 | brlcad |
| 07:02.34 | brlcad | (and no, it's not the same as having a portal exactly) |
| 07:02.52 | L4m3r | well, yeah, see, I'd love to be able to do that |
| 07:03.13 | L4m3r | but I see myself spending more time in the lobby than ingame. I'd rather be able to multitask, then. |
| 07:03.30 | brlcad | you also sign off from time to time |
| 07:03.34 | brlcad | plenty others don't :) |
| 07:03.58 | L4m3r | I might as well not log off at all... |
| 07:04.09 | L4m3r | I just don't connect via SSH |
| 07:04.15 | brlcad | that would also make for a great way to make announcements |
| 07:04.21 | L4m3r | and do IRCing on my lappy, so I can still read when gaming |
| 07:04.34 | brlcad | e.g. letting players join #bzchat from in the client |
| 07:04.44 | JeffM2501 | you'd have to secure the CRAP outa that one |
| 07:05.13 | JeffM2501 | I'd be wooried about abbuses |
| 07:05.14 | L4m3r | use a bot |
| 07:05.20 | JeffM2501 | floods to servers |
| 07:05.22 | brlcad | they'd only have whatever capabilities were exposed to them, similar to cgi:irc being limited to actions and channels |
| 07:05.31 | JeffM2501 | even just babble chat in the channel will suck up bandwith to the server. |
| 07:05.47 | brlcad | to the server? |
| 07:05.53 | JeffM2501 | if the server is in a channel |
| 07:06.02 | JeffM2501 | it'll be sent all the chat in that channel |
| 07:06.04 | JeffM2501 | right? |
| 07:06.04 | brlcad | that's the *other* idea |
| 07:06.24 | JeffM2501 | oh you mean the game clients in a lobby channel |
| 07:06.29 | brlcad | right |
| 07:06.45 | L4m3r | I think server-IRC chat should be opt-in |
| 07:06.46 | JeffM2501 | ahh a place for people to spam obsenities :) |
| 07:06.50 | brlcad | if they were in the channel, they wouldn't be connected to a server |
| 07:06.54 | L4m3r | uses are limited there |
| 07:07.15 | brlcad | about as limited as bzadmin |
| 07:07.20 | JeffM2501 | you'd have to have a decently active amdin there I'd think |
| 07:07.26 | JeffM2501 | as the asshats would find it fast |
| 07:07.40 | brlcad | server's joining is really just a convenient means at providing a truely global bzadmin-style interface |
| 07:08.47 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/ (HUDRenderer.cxx playing.cxx): draw a visual lockon identifier for those you lock on too. |
| 07:08.51 | brlcad | could always tie their auth into global groups, give certain players ops .. normal irc rules would still apply too |
| 07:09.02 | L4m3r | perhaps the use of verification and +m would be useful there |
| 07:09.24 | L4m3r | tie voice to global auth with a bot |
| 07:09.25 | brlcad | yeah, it could be like #freenode is/was |
| 07:09.26 | JeffM2501 | well how do you know that an IRC user is the same as a global user? |
| 07:09.42 | DTRemenak | run your own irc |
| 07:09.44 | DTRemenak | d |
| 07:09.44 | brlcad | encoded into their username |
| 07:09.45 | JeffM2501 | if a global user never came here, I could reg the name and +m it |
| 07:09.57 | JeffM2501 | so tie freenode itself into our auth? |
| 07:10.03 | L4m3r | put it in the profile someplace |
| 07:10.05 | brlcad | no |
| 07:10.20 | DTRemenak | L4m3r: not verifiable |
| 07:10.23 | JeffM2501 | I don't get how the server knows to trust an admin message from me over you? |
| 07:10.25 | DTRemenak | tokens are single-use |
| 07:10.32 | JeffM2501 | how does IRC get the token? |
| 07:10.40 | JeffM2501 | I'm on Xchat, how does it get a token |
| 07:10.41 | L4m3r | just require that the person ID globally and send their nick to the bot for voicing |
| 07:10.52 | brlcad | i'm thinking more like a bot that tied into our auth that the client would auto-negotiate a token with |
| 07:11.01 | JeffM2501 | so we auth to the bot in plaintext |
| 07:11.20 | L4m3r | doesn't freenode use a mode for ID'd users? |
| 07:11.21 | brlcad | client auths to list server |
| 07:11.25 | brlcad | gets token |
| 07:11.25 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 07:11.27 | JeffM2501 | I kow |
| 07:11.29 | JeffM2501 | just checking |
| 07:11.33 | brlcad | same negotiation as server |
| 07:11.43 | brlcad | there's lots of wiggle room |
| 07:11.56 | brlcad | even without all that, it's still doable i think |
| 07:12.05 | JeffM2501 | I'm not doubting it's possible |
| 07:12.09 | JeffM2501 | never doubted that |
| 07:12.10 | brlcad | and useful :) |
| 07:12.12 | DTRemenak | so how do you join from a normal client then? have to copy-and-paste the token to the bot? |
| 07:12.17 | JeffM2501 | that's my doubt :) |
| 07:12.35 | JeffM2501 | how does the server know to trust the bot? |
| 07:12.36 | L4m3r | can't the bot accept its own connections? |
| 07:12.42 | DTRemenak | or do you just trust that a given ircd user is always the same once he's authed? |
| 07:12.43 | brlcad | DTRemenak: no, the client could negotiate that as part of the connection |
| 07:12.50 | DTRemenak | brlcad: what client? |
| 07:12.57 | brlcad | the .. bzflag client |
| 07:13.02 | DTRemenak | normal client = xchat/irssi/etc |
| 07:13.06 | DTRemenak | how do you join from that |
| 07:13.07 | JeffM2501 | you are talking about using IRC for bzadmin work |
| 07:13.19 | brlcad | you'd just join |
| 07:13.20 | DTRemenak | and have permission to actually talk to your servers |
| 07:13.26 | JeffM2501 | join what? |
| 07:13.31 | JeffM2501 | the channel? |
| 07:13.35 | brlcad | sure |
| 07:13.41 | JeffM2501 | how does the server know to trust me? |
| 07:13.42 | DTRemenak | and how do you get voice? |
| 07:14.11 | brlcad | the bot wouldn't have to give you voice -- it could just prevent the game client from joining (or auto-voice-whatever works) |
| 07:14.12 | *** join/#bzflag RatOmeter__ (n=chatzill@139.78.95.188) |
| 07:15.20 | JeffM2501 | so then how do I bzadmin from IRC, how does the game server know to trust me as an IRC only user |
| 07:15.20 | JeffM2501 | do I have to /password in a /msg to it? |
| 07:15.20 | DTRemenak | ok...so walk me through this...I'm a fellow who wants to admin my server from IRC. my bzbb name is "joebob" and my irc name is "joebob234". |
| 07:15.21 | JeffM2501 | or ID with some bot that will tell the game server I'm cool |
| 07:15.21 | brlcad | IF it were moderated (and that's still kinda a dive-into-details-irrelevant design question), you could still expect chanserv to be set up |
| 07:15.30 | JeffM2501 | so chanserv would have to tie to our auth |
| 07:15.44 | brlcad | why? |
| 07:15.55 | JeffM2501 | to know if I'm in the admin group to give it commands |
| 07:16.06 | JeffM2501 | how does the game know I'm an admin? |
| 07:16.08 | brlcad | you're making it a hell of a lot more complicated than it really needs to be, imho |
| 07:16.18 | L4m3r | okay... user runs bzclient, chooses option to enable IRC chat. bzflag client gets token and sends it to bot. bot gets client and IRC nick, and voices that nick from that point forward. |
| 07:16.22 | JeffM2501 | I'm just tryhing to see how it works :) |
| 07:16.26 | JeffM2501 | when you don't have a bz client |
| 07:16.32 | JeffM2501 | if that's the intent |
| 07:16.37 | brlcad | gah, and you've switched over to the other topic too |
| 07:16.44 | brlcad | the two are NOT the same in the least |
| 07:16.51 | L4m3r | user chooses to be an asshat, so they're devoiced and their bzid is blacklisted. |
| 07:17.03 | JeffM2501 | we were talking about servers in a channel for admin |
| 07:17.03 | L4m3r | oops |
| 07:17.04 | JeffM2501 | right? |
| 07:17.09 | brlcad | nope |
| 07:17.15 | JeffM2501 | the entire "central" thing |
| 07:17.42 | brlcad | we were at least initially talking about a global chat waiting room that players joined to chit chat |
| 07:17.44 | JeffM2501 | the entire central bzadmin interface |
| 07:17.45 | DTRemenak | <brlcad> server's joining is really just a convenient means at providing a truely global bzadmin-style interface |
| 07:17.53 | JeffM2501 | Bingo! |
| 07:18.03 | JeffM2501 | that's what I was trying to understand |
| 07:18.05 | JeffM2501 | that part |
| 07:18.08 | JeffM2501 | I get the waiting room |
| 07:18.13 | JeffM2501 | that's simple |
| 07:18.22 | JeffM2501 | and I understand auto moderation of that |
| 07:18.25 | brlcad | ahh, well then major disconnect there |
| 07:18.26 | JeffM2501 | with voice |
| 07:18.33 | brlcad | the whole time I was referring to chit-chat |
| 07:18.39 | JeffM2501 | hah |
| 07:18.41 | L4m3r | me too |
| 07:18.42 | L4m3r | lol |
| 07:18.50 | brlcad | it's L4m3r's fault |
| 07:18.56 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 07:18.56 | JeffM2501 | I want to know how the server can be admined from IRC |
| 07:18.56 | brlcad | :) |
| 07:19.08 | L4m3r | I think it'd be realtively easy |
| 07:19.09 | brlcad | ahh, that's a little easier |
| 07:19.16 | JeffM2501 | how does it trust you? |
| 07:19.23 | DTRemenak | fun when two conversations don't actually fit together, but both sides think they're in the same conversation, eh? :) |
| 07:19.25 | brlcad | well, you actually made it a little harder recently |
| 07:19.32 | JeffM2501 | :) |
| 07:19.32 | brlcad | but it can be easy once again |
| 07:19.39 | JeffM2501 | local |
| 07:19.41 | JeffM2501 | eww |
| 07:19.44 | JeffM2501 | no thanks |
| 07:20.15 | L4m3r | channel passwords? |
| 07:20.19 | L4m3r | ;) |
| 07:20.27 | JeffM2501 | then your back to a single password |
| 07:20.35 | JeffM2501 | and don't get global type group breaks |
| 07:20.36 | L4m3r | and more sophisticated mechanisms that people can use if they want |
| 07:20.54 | JeffM2501 | most of them will involve the serer knowing a password |
| 07:21.01 | L4m3r | I suppose we could release a bot... |
| 07:21.07 | brlcad | it wouldn't have to be local, that'd just be the easiest |
| 07:21.17 | JeffM2501 | then how does the server know to trust the bot? :) |
| 07:21.24 | DTRemenak | ./configure |
| 07:21.26 | DTRemenak | ~ww |
| 07:21.35 | ibot | Mmmm.. Modalities. |
| 07:21.35 | brlcad | there could be a global listserv bot of sorts |
| 07:22.06 | JeffM2501 | just hope a nick that the server trusts dosn't get hijacked :) |
| 07:22.14 | brlcad | so you'd auth to the listserv bot, get a token, provide token to the server-joined bot, which would then validate with listserv bot |
| 07:22.26 | L4m3r | JeffM2501: that's no different from bz callsigns ;) |
| 07:22.30 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: if we're cooperating with freenode, we could potentially set it up with jupes |
| 07:22.35 | brlcad | wouldn't be irc-nick based -- you'd provide your callsign and bzbb pass |
| 07:22.36 | L4m3r | just a lot more fish in the pond |
| 07:23.00 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r callsigns are veriofied with passwordes by us |
| 07:23.07 | JeffM2501 | the server dosn't trust based on nick allone |
| 07:23.21 | JeffM2501 | I want to know how a new server can know to trust tokens from a bot |
| 07:23.36 | L4m3r | but if the server checks nick and +e it's not far off, is it? :/ |
| 07:23.38 | JeffM2501 | or that somone can't get a bot in there to farm passwords |
| 07:23.54 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r I reg a name that hasn't been here, and its +e :) |
| 07:24.08 | brlcad | lock the list serv to a fully private channel |
| 07:24.10 | JeffM2501 | IRC isn't tied to bz so we can't trust it |
| 07:24.25 | JeffM2501 | yeah if we get freenode to help that protects it some |
| 07:24.27 | brlcad | or to no channel for that matter |
| 07:24.39 | JeffM2501 | then just hope it dosn't get namejacked |
| 07:24.40 | brlcad | channel is irrelevant really for the listserver bot |
| 07:24.52 | JeffM2501 | or ensure it can't |
| 07:25.30 | brlcad | yeah, could have serverbots validate that the bot is verified with nickserv |
| 07:25.43 | brlcad | and has the right hostmask or something |
| 07:25.44 | JeffM2501 | it becomes a more complex system |
| 07:25.58 | JeffM2501 | lots of little peices that have to work |
| 07:25.59 | L4m3r | and if we're doing anything with IRC nicks we need something that ties them to a bzid |
| 07:26.01 | brlcad | checking if it's verified isn't really, just a mode on the user |
| 07:26.19 | JeffM2501 | many points of failure there |
| 07:26.41 | brlcad | er, howso? |
| 07:26.56 | JeffM2501 | if the serverbot dies |
| 07:26.59 | JeffM2501 | or the listbot dies |
| 07:27.03 | JeffM2501 | those are hosted |
| 07:27.15 | JeffM2501 | you'd have to have more then one that could swap to the nic if a machine puked |
| 07:27.17 | brlcad | serverbots die, there's no means to talk to the server.... |
| 07:27.19 | JeffM2501 | or netspit |
| 07:27.21 | L4m3r | netspits x_x |
| 07:27.40 | brlcad | hence no involvement, no chatter, nothing to do or worry about |
| 07:27.43 | L4m3r | wow we both misspelled that at the same time |
| 07:27.46 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 07:27.49 | L4m3r | netsplits* |
| 07:27.56 | JeffM2501 | by serverbot you mean chanserv right? |
| 07:28.08 | brlcad | if list server dies, then there's a chance of someone trying to hijack, but that is taken care of with validation |
| 07:28.36 | brlcad | no, i mean that there will be a bot for every participating bzfs on the network |
| 07:28.50 | brlcad | that is effectively the server's representative |
| 07:28.53 | JeffM2501 | oh have the game server verify the hostmask |
| 07:28.54 | JeffM2501 | got it |
| 07:29.09 | JeffM2501 | or something |
| 07:29.15 | brlcad | verify +i |
| 07:29.35 | brlcad | if it's got +i and isn't our bot, then a password was compromised |
| 07:29.35 | JeffM2501 | is there any way to intercept /msgs to the bot? |
| 07:29.50 | brlcad | not without access to freenode servers |
| 07:30.12 | JeffM2501 | the least amount of freenode service use would be best |
| 07:30.20 | JeffM2501 | as we don't want to pull another phpbb |
| 07:30.26 | brlcad | the server itself could be fake, but there's not much point as they're not given any information |
| 07:30.56 | JeffM2501 | I'm just trying to see if there are any holes |
| 07:31.03 | brlcad | yeah, only one bot, our list server bot, would need to be registered |
| 07:31.08 | JeffM2501 | so far you've got adiquite patches for all posible holes. |
| 07:31.57 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: assuming our current validation system is correct, a properly designed irc validation system is just as correct |
| 07:32.03 | JeffM2501 | the last would be users /msg flooding servers, if that's possible. |
| 07:32.10 | DTRemenak | substitute "list server bot" for "list server" in our main design |
| 07:32.15 | JeffM2501 | or /msg flooding players |
| 07:32.25 | L4m3r | for some people who run many servers it'd be nice to have several servers in a channel to chatter |
| 07:32.26 | DTRemenak | and "PRIVMSG" for "TCP/IP" |
| 07:32.28 | brlcad | another angle, it could provide global instant announcements and global on-demand bans/unbans |
| 07:33.04 | JeffM2501 | so you'd have the list bot give out bans? |
| 07:33.06 | L4m3r | i.e. see joins, parts, and bans across a network |
| 07:33.07 | DTRemenak | in fact, it's more correct, since we're using +i (third-party verification) instead of ip addresses |
| 07:33.38 | L4m3r | so, for instance, we'd spot CRW's next spree the instant he joins a mofo server ;) |
| 07:33.44 | JeffM2501 | or join all your servers to your admin channel |
| 07:34.15 | JeffM2501 | or give a group super cow powers via IRC? |
| 07:34.34 | brlcad | JeffM2501: that would be entirely up to how we design the interactions -- could keep it simple and per-server for starters |
| 07:34.52 | JeffM2501 | I can see the list bot doing masterban updates |
| 07:34.55 | JeffM2501 | as it's trusted |
| 07:35.01 | JeffM2501 | be away to push themout |
| 07:35.08 | L4m3r | I think for sanity's sake it'd be better to only have them able to join channels to dispense info |
| 07:35.23 | L4m3r | not recieve commands |
| 07:35.37 | JeffM2501 | then you could not batch admin them :) |
| 07:35.38 | purple_cow | wow |
| 07:35.42 | brlcad | more informatively, all server activity would be streaming into irc, so you could get a view of any activity on any server instantly |
| 07:35.44 | purple_cow | you guys are putting a lot of energy into designing this |
| 07:35.57 | L4m3r | JeffM2501: sure you could. use a bot... we could release one, even |
| 07:35.57 | JeffM2501 | define "all" |
| 07:36.13 | JeffM2501 | how much more bandwith will all that activitty add? |
| 07:36.33 | L4m3r | is recieving a chat message any more intensive than /msg? |
| 07:36.34 | brlcad | all == whatever freenode lets us get away with without a flood kick :) |
| 07:36.42 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r or just tell em to join a channel then give msgs in that channel to IDed users |
| 07:37.02 | JeffM2501 | so one additional copy of all chat |
| 07:37.13 | JeffM2501 | is what it sounds like |
| 07:37.47 | brlcad | i think the guys that did the plugin had it streaming most game activity but couldn't do chat |
| 07:37.53 | brlcad | and that was using the default flood limits |
| 07:38.11 | JeffM2501 | I'm more worried about the bandwith useage of the server, not freenode or flood limits |
| 07:38.17 | brlcad | we could probably get those limits increased like is done for other similar network services |
| 07:38.19 | JeffM2501 | how will it slow down DSL servers |
| 07:38.35 | brlcad | ahh, well they can certainly turn it off |
| 07:38.36 | JeffM2501 | and how do we prevent somone from /msg flooding out a DSL server that has a small pipe anyay |
| 07:38.37 | L4m3r | JeffM2501: opt-in |
| 07:38.49 | JeffM2501 | if your opt in, then make it a plugin :) |
| 07:39.05 | JeffM2501 | he was talking about possible default |
| 07:39.41 | L4m3r | that was about chit-chat I though |
| 07:39.43 | L4m3r | thought* |
| 07:40.08 | DTRemenak | how many servers would use it, honestly? |
| 07:40.17 | JeffM2501 | if sever management is opt in, then it's just an extensio of that plugin |
| 07:40.31 | JeffM2501 | and yeah, few will |
| 07:40.48 | DTRemenak | mine probably wouldn't, I don't see it offering any advantage over ssh |
| 07:42.03 | brlcad | i bet most servers that are actively managed would use it, the admins that remain in here almost for certain |
| 07:42.26 | DTRemenak | really? why? |
| 07:42.29 | JeffM2501 | so they arn't using the plugin now cus it can't do admin then? |
| 07:42.52 | brlcad | it's an on-demand bzadmin whenever they need it with better logging and searching facilities with all the same capabilites |
| 07:42.59 | DTRemenak | join a channel and auth, or open an ssh connection...I don't see the difference |
| 07:43.22 | JeffM2501 | seems many leave bzadmin up and SSH |
| 07:43.52 | DTRemenak | logging really ought to be done via a database if you want better logging and search facilities |
| 07:44.02 | JeffM2501 | another plugin :) |
| 07:44.13 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: don't think I haven't thought about it :) |
| 07:44.18 | brlcad | that wouldn't be the only reason, but it's integrated and wouldn't be anything that someone had to code |
| 07:44.21 | JeffM2501 | I have too |
| 07:44.29 | L4m3r | damn you all |
| 07:44.31 | JeffM2501 | code? |
| 07:44.37 | JeffM2501 | bzadmin dosn't need code |
| 07:44.43 | JeffM2501 | screen and ssh |
| 07:44.51 | L4m3r | I swear I had a valid irc-based server management idea for a gsoc proposal |
| 07:45.04 | L4m3r | now I don't >_< |
| 07:45.16 | JeffM2501 | just update the IRC plugin |
| 07:45.26 | JeffM2501 | have it have a list of valid usernames and hostmasks :) |
| 07:45.32 | L4m3r | but I don't remember what I was going to *do* |
| 07:45.36 | JeffM2501 | or take it's own /idetifu |
| 07:45.43 | JeffM2501 | and then you get all the stuff he's talking about |
| 07:45.53 | DTRemenak | brlcad: actually I'm seeing my current solution requiring no additional work, versus an irc proposal taking potentially an SoC slot and a new application to maintain (list server bot) plus many hours of debugging, and interfacing with freenode staff |
| 07:45.55 | L4m3r | how it works isn't even the issue yet :P |
| 07:46.08 | DTRemenak | I'm not real excited at this point :) |
| 07:46.24 | brlcad | did you forget the global server aspect? |
| 07:46.30 | L4m3r | for the record though I still love the idea of a lobby |
| 07:46.35 | brlcad | that alone sells it |
| 07:46.42 | brlcad | regardless of being able to talk to just one server |
| 07:46.48 | JeffM2501 | it's opt in, what does the "globalness" of it give you, from a server admin side? |
| 07:46.53 | DTRemenak | I would not join a channel that had all servers dumping into it |
| 07:46.57 | L4m3r | but if that's all we're going to do then IRC is almost certainly NOT the answer |
| 07:47.01 | DTRemenak | that's just too much of a deluge of information |
| 07:47.13 | DTRemenak | and if it's just my servers, I see no advantage to my current situation |
| 07:47.23 | JeffM2501 | may as well log data to the list when you update and then sort it on the web :) |
| 07:47.27 | brlcad | the information can be filtered to whatever was suitable |
| 07:47.28 | JeffM2501 | be more manageable |
| 07:47.34 | JeffM2501 | and also "central" |
| 07:47.51 | brlcad | can't perform actions with that approach |
| 07:47.58 | L4m3r | could we possibly run our own jabber server and check it against global auth? |
| 07:48.21 | JeffM2501 | if an owner wants admin then they run that plugin |
| 07:48.22 | JeffM2501 | or do ssh |
| 07:48.39 | DTRemenak | what actions would you want to do across all your servers? ban is the only one I can think of. |
| 07:48.48 | DTRemenak | maybe announce |
| 07:48.49 | JeffM2501 | and who does that? |
| 07:48.49 | brlcad | ban's good enough for me |
| 07:48.50 | L4m3r | send messages |
| 07:48.54 | brlcad | and announcements |
| 07:49.02 | DTRemenak | I use a central banlist as it is |
| 07:49.02 | brlcad | and pms perhaps |
| 07:49.09 | JeffM2501 | pms? |
| 07:49.15 | brlcad | PMs :P |
| 07:49.18 | DTRemenak | female servers? :) |
| 07:49.24 | JeffM2501 | ahh cross server chat |
| 07:49.26 | JeffM2501 | there ya go |
| 07:49.34 | brlcad | no, irc->server |
| 07:49.34 | JeffM2501 | that's the only new thing you got there |
| 07:49.37 | brlcad | not server to server |
| 07:49.45 | JeffM2501 | what do you mean then? |
| 07:49.53 | DTRemenak | irc->server vs. bzadmin->server |
| 07:49.57 | DTRemenak | not seeing the advantage there |
| 07:50.02 | JeffM2501 | again, just use ssh |
| 07:50.04 | JeffM2501 | or the plugin |
| 07:50.07 | L4m3r | interserver chatting is not that compelling as a feature IMO |
| 07:50.11 | JeffM2501 | announce is just a realtime motd |
| 07:50.22 | L4m3r | a lobby and maybe a private messaging system would work better |
| 07:50.27 | brlcad | DTRemenak: that works for YOUR server |
| 07:50.36 | brlcad | that's not the only situation |
| 07:50.56 | DTRemenak | brlcad: exactly. so what servers does it not? we going to implement this huge featureset for two server owners? |
| 07:51.04 | JeffM2501 | I'd be interested in adding adminstuff to the exiting IRC plugin and see who uses it |
| 07:51.08 | L4m3r | let's make our own protocol! </idiot> |
| 07:51.08 | brlcad | huh? |
| 07:51.24 | DTRemenak | brlcad: my original question was, how many servers will use it? |
| 07:51.49 | DTRemenak | and failing to recieve an answer, I outlined the reasons mine would not |
| 07:51.59 | brlcad | how many times does someone hop onto the channel asking if an admin is around on server XYZ? with the right setup, this would let a designated group take care of the issue |
| 07:52.21 | DTRemenak | no, it would be exactly the same...they'd hop on and ask if an admin was around on server xyz |
| 07:52.24 | JeffM2501 | so global cops |
| 07:52.32 | DTRemenak | and then an admin would have to be on, just like now |
| 07:52.36 | JeffM2501 | and that group would go and ssh :) |
| 07:52.46 | DTRemenak | and would have to join a channel, just like now they fire up an ssh connection |
| 07:52.56 | brlcad | global cops, yes |
| 07:53.04 | JeffM2501 | unless your talking about giving like devs or a group like that admin powers on all servers in the system automaticly |
| 07:53.13 | JeffM2501 | that's more then a techincal issue |
| 07:53.16 | DTRemenak | and that is an entirely different question |
| 07:53.19 | JeffM2501 | so super cow powers |
| 07:53.20 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 07:53.22 | DTRemenak | we have no such group now |
| 07:53.29 | JeffM2501 | that's needing like rules and stuff |
| 07:53.39 | DTRemenak | and we tried that before |
| 07:53.46 | DTRemenak | ended in miserable failure |
| 07:53.53 | JeffM2501 | techincaly reasons' weren't the reasons ether |
| 07:53.54 | DTRemenak | and I see nothing that would be different this time |
| 07:54.02 | JeffM2501 | unless you want that group run by commitie |
| 07:54.07 | JeffM2501 | and you've seen how that goes. |
| 07:54.34 | JeffM2501 | better tools would have helped it |
| 07:54.37 | brlcad | the old bzcop mess |
| 07:54.48 | DTRemenak | tools were not the issue, I think |
| 07:54.49 | JeffM2501 | but it was flawed in it's social charter and design |
| 07:54.59 | JeffM2501 | failed due to design by commite issues as well |
| 07:55.16 | JeffM2501 | one cop goes ban happy on all servers... not so good |
| 07:55.34 | DTRemenak | perception of power-hunger, perception of corruption, whatever...all leads to the same thing...servers pull privs from the global admins |
| 07:55.37 | JeffM2501 | there are devs I'd not want to have realtime unmoderated access to bans on all servers. |
| 07:55.42 | DTRemenak | and it will happen every time |
| 07:55.52 | JeffM2501 | the only saving grace of masterban is the cvs history of it. |
| 07:56.24 | brlcad | you probably don't agree it sounds, but it is less effort to join channel and send a command than it is to open a terminal, ssh over, screen or bzadmin up, and send command .. especially when I am *already* on the other all the time .. and there are plenty of such admins |
| 07:56.26 | JeffM2501 | I'd not want a SoC student to design a global admin policy ether |
| 07:56.45 | JeffM2501 | brlcad so install the plugins on your servers |
| 07:56.53 | JeffM2501 | have them siting in IRC waiting for commands from you |
| 07:56.55 | JeffM2501 | done deal |
| 07:57.00 | JeffM2501 | if that works best for you. |
| 07:57.07 | brlcad | *sigh* |
| 07:57.30 | JeffM2501 | if everyone starts using those plugins and we see the need/use for a global system then we enhance it |
| 07:57.38 | DTRemenak | when I had a server that was actually active regularly, I left ssh and bzadmin connected. |
| 07:57.41 | JeffM2501 | is opt in your goal? |
| 07:58.01 | JeffM2501 | or like masteban, a default? |
| 07:58.19 | brlcad | DTRemenak: which to me seems like a kludge in itself, that's something you set up instead of being a provided facility |
| 07:58.53 | DTRemenak | and it might be easier/more efficient to leave irc connected instead of ssh, because I run irc all the time anyway. but is it worth an soc slot, or hundreds of hours of dev time? um...no... |
| 07:59.08 | brlcad | opt in frankly wouldn't be the goal, it is more beneficial to have as many servers participating as possible |
| 07:59.34 | brlcad | fine, so screw GSoC for this |
| 07:59.38 | JeffM2501 | so basicly we are saying, by default, runing public, you give some group admin powers. |
| 07:59.42 | JeffM2501 | that was a big thing with global |
| 07:59.53 | JeffM2501 | people thought that bzbb admins had admin powers on all servers |
| 08:00.01 | JeffM2501 | and were very hesitant |
| 08:00.10 | brlcad | that would sort itself out in the rankings regardless, getting submissions doesn't do a darn thing towards slots |
| 08:00.17 | JeffM2501 | if you now say that by default, Yes some group does, |
| 08:00.21 | brlcad | in fact more submissions helps your slot count (announced today) |
| 08:00.25 | JeffM2501 | and we follow some rule system |
| 08:00.57 | JeffM2501 | that system will not be good for all servers |
| 08:01.23 | JeffM2501 | at that point why don't we just not list servers that don't follow our rules? |
| 08:01.27 | brlcad | really, we keep diving into details when you don't even agree with the big picture, so frankly its turning more pointless |
| 08:01.43 | JeffM2501 | I'm just trying to undersand what the goals are |
| 08:01.53 | brlcad | the benefits are as a whole package, not any given aspect |
| 08:01.55 | JeffM2501 | is it IRC for IRC's sake? or what is the big picture. |
| 08:01.58 | brlcad | of course there are alternatives |
| 08:02.02 | brlcad | there usually are |
| 08:02.05 | JeffM2501 | I get your big picture now |
| 08:02.15 | JeffM2501 | even not counting the IRC part |
| 08:02.17 | brlcad | it becomes a good thing because it's integrated |
| 08:02.28 | JeffM2501 | yes I see that is important to you |
| 08:02.56 | JeffM2501 | for stat collecting and applying a fixed server management to all servers in the pool |
| 08:02.57 | brlcad | it would require convincing and establishing trust and a plethora of technical details to make work if someone wanted to do it |
| 08:03.50 | JeffM2501 | stat collecting and an offical admin team are the problems your trying to solve |
| 08:03.57 | brlcad | to me it would have been worth it for many of the points, just hearing a complaint on some server and being able to join a channel to see what what going on, for example (without firing up a bzadmin or a client), join depart |
| 08:04.33 | brlcad | even to do nothing but observe momentarily |
| 08:04.47 | JeffM2501 | now is that you as an admin chosen by the server owner? or as part of the global group? |
| 08:05.54 | brlcad | either way really and neither -- players could join to see if someone was on the server or not, admins could join to check in on trouble (or perform an action), if there were a global admin group they could do the same |
| 08:06.20 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 08:06.34 | brlcad | except for the unified channel that could provide broadcasting, it really wouldn't be different than bzadmin other than the access from irc |
| 08:06.34 | JeffM2501 | the techicnal aspects would allow for a nuber of option, I get that. |
| 08:07.14 | JeffM2501 | for a global group, you'd get enough users. |
| 08:07.23 | JeffM2501 | for players, less |
| 08:08.00 | JeffM2501 | for seeing if somoine is on, a real friends system would be best |
| 08:08.02 | DTRemenak | if you want to implement it, go for it. I just don't see anything compelling to either a) convince me to work on it, b) convince me to use it, or c) convince me to try to convince someone else to work on it. all I really see (sorry if this offends) is a very complex solution in search of problems. |
| 08:08.24 | brlcad | with the listserver in place, you can start thinking about more involvement, players on irc chatting with players in the game, or on separate servers |
| 08:08.30 | JeffM2501 | I can see how it could be handy for some work methods. |
| 08:09.04 | brlcad | DTRemenak: i realized that about two hours ago for you :) |
| 08:09.13 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 08:09.32 | brlcad | for me it would solve several problems |
| 08:09.42 | JeffM2501 | I'm not sure how prevelant IRC to players would be |
| 08:10.09 | JeffM2501 | player to player acrross servers, with some notification would be usefull for them |
| 08:10.18 | JeffM2501 | "bob joined server xxx" |
| 08:10.32 | JeffM2501 | who's on now, can be sent at server list time |
| 08:10.40 | JeffM2501 | as the list server has player counts and logins. |
| 08:10.51 | JeffM2501 | then that can be done in game |
| 08:10.58 | JeffM2501 | tho an external app could be interesting |
| 08:11.10 | JeffM2501 | tho dunno if that would be better served with a web page, rather then IRC |
| 08:11.26 | JeffM2501 | but its' time for sleep :) |
| 08:11.30 | DTRemenak | indeed |
| 08:11.33 | brlcad | from a communications perspective, it makes each server be a channel and allows chat across channels just like an irc network of it's own (and just happens to also be accessible from irc) |
| 08:11.33 | JeffM2501 | thanks for leting me play devils advocate |
| 08:12.08 | JeffM2501 | brlcad I get that part, it's writen exactly that way in the IRC for chating writeup I did for opencombat years ago :) |
| 08:12.32 | brlcad | well, shame there weren't any admins around .. i actually have talked to many about this feature and they wanted it |
| 08:12.35 | JeffM2501 | hence why I have opinions about it, I've gone down that road in my head |
| 08:12.51 | JeffM2501 | who is they? |
| 08:12.53 | JeffM2501 | server owners? |
| 08:13.02 | brlcad | yeah, server admins |
| 08:13.10 | JeffM2501 | not admins, owners |
| 08:13.17 | brlcad | and owners |
| 08:13.18 | JeffM2501 | that's who I'd like to hear from |
| 08:13.29 | JeffM2501 | intersting to know |
| 08:13.36 | brlcad | this talks go back several years |
| 08:13.42 | DTRemenak | brlcad: cool...but I have a feeling you've hit just about all of them who feel that way. I suspect most have never used irc :) |
| 08:13.47 | brlcad | not something i just came up with :) |
| 08:14.13 | JeffM2501 | not most of the "DSL" servers at least I'd think |
| 08:14.22 | JeffM2501 | tho I'd like to know how many real hosts we have |
| 08:14.26 | JeffM2501 | not server instances. |
| 08:14.29 | JeffM2501 | but realy, sleep |
| 08:14.31 | brlcad | the fact that there are a couple servers that would write a plugin for it that does basically exactly what bzadmin does should say something |
| 08:14.54 | *** part/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=jeffm@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
| 08:15.51 | DTRemenak | couple? |
| 08:16.10 | brlcad | yeah, they collaborated between two server groups iirc |
| 08:16.26 | brlcad | or one wrote and the other wanted, i forget the details |
| 08:16.29 | DTRemenak | ah, silverfox too |
| 08:16.38 | DTRemenak | yeah, mofo is the big user of it |
| 08:16.43 | DTRemenak | and I can see why |
| 08:16.50 | DTRemenak | they have multiple servers on multiple hosts |
| 08:16.54 | DTRemenak | with a single admin group |
| 08:17.08 | brlcad | hence the global cops angle |
| 08:17.12 | DTRemenak | totally agree it makes sense for them |
| 08:17.14 | brlcad | and unified logging |
| 08:17.37 | DTRemenak | but I think that, and maybe a few irc-addicts, is about the limit of use something like that would get |
| 08:17.39 | brlcad | from a network operations perspective, that's what makes it make sense and have value for me |
| 08:18.14 | brlcad | if i'm tracking down a player that needs to be banned, I don't have to scan/watch the bzfls logs, I could have something immediately more parseable and notifiable |
| 08:18.49 | DTRemenak | "tracking down a player that needs to be banned"? |
| 08:18.53 | brlcad | add the ability to talk to them as well and/or kick them, ban them, whatever, and it's gravy |
| 08:19.01 | DTRemenak | either you see him or you don't, right? |
| 08:19.22 | DTRemenak | that's what I have delegated admins for |
| 08:19.42 | brlcad | after there are several reports of bannings, I trace them down and watch the logs |
| 08:20.18 | brlcad | for the dynamic folks with constant username changes, this is rather cumbersome .. doable, but cumbersome and extensively time consuming |
| 08:20.32 | DTRemenak | for masterban, a couple trusted server ops with the same ip is enough |
| 08:20.59 | DTRemenak | and dynamic folks shouldn't be getting banned globally anyway imho |
| 08:21.26 | brlcad | i disagree on the latter |
| 08:21.54 | brlcad | the reason for the ban is valid either way -- the fact that our system is less than optimal for dealing with them is secondary |
| 08:22.07 | DTRemenak | it's not our system, it's the internet |
| 08:22.18 | brlcad | our system of banning |
| 08:22.26 | DTRemenak | if you ban an ip, and the person using it changes IPs, you have a valid ip banned |
| 08:23.06 | DTRemenak | same thing is true on other services |
| 08:23.09 | brlcad | of course |
| 08:23.23 | brlcad | so you remove that ip and put the new one |
| 08:23.44 | brlcad | which is what I meant by not-optimal |
| 08:23.57 | DTRemenak | so for dynamics, you have two options...one, invest a ton of manual effort into updating as they change, thereby successfully tying up one of your people from whatever they could be doing for every offender, or two, ban a range and get innocents too |
| 08:23.58 | brlcad | it actually still works |
| 08:24.18 | DTRemenak | in my opinion, one is not worth it, and two is an unacceptable risk |
| 08:24.42 | DTRemenak | if I have to spend a day chasing a cheater, that's a day I could have spent improving the code so he couldn't cheat |
| 08:24.56 | brlcad | so turn a blind eye and let their havoc roam |
| 08:25.06 | DTRemenak | let the individual servers deal with it |
| 08:25.09 | DTRemenak | fragment it |
| 08:25.13 | brlcad | so turn a blind eye |
| 08:25.32 | brlcad | from a global network setup, you're ignoring what is a problem for individual servers to deal with |
| 08:26.14 | brlcad | the fact that our system is less than optimal for dealing with them, the fact that it might be "a ton of manual effort" (even though it's not really) is secondary |
| 08:26.35 | brlcad | assuming we actually provide such a service to the community, and I like to think that we do |
| 08:27.31 | DTRemenak | essentially fragmentation reduces the risks. some servers will ban the subnet, thereby catching innocents. innocents can still play, on other servers. some will track the cheaters, having determined that their op's time is less valuable than the cheater's. some will ignore it, and face whatever consequences come their way. |
| 08:27.47 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=jeffm@pool-71-109-221-249.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 08:27.48 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 08:27.49 | DTRemenak | it's why distributed systems work well |
| 08:27.58 | JeffM2501 | can't sleep stuff stuck in head |
| 08:28.11 | brlcad | in this instance.. it's also distributed time |
| 08:28.19 | JeffM2501 | and not in a naysay way :) |
| 08:28.24 | brlcad | horribly inefficient and a massive waste of resources dealing with them |
| 08:28.45 | brlcad | when there is a means to manage them, especially with architecture provisions |
| 08:28.56 | JeffM2501 | so lets say we get all he servers on IRC, and the clients on IRC, woudl you do the chat for one server as just the clietns joining the server channel? |
| 08:29.08 | DTRemenak | there is no means to "manage" them that does NOT involve spending the same amount of time that the cheater does |
| 08:29.21 | JeffM2501 | and if all the servers have a cannel, then coudln't your list server just be asking the IRC network for a channel list? |
| 08:29.32 | DTRemenak | he can switch ip's in 5 seconds, you can't even type his ip that fast |
| 08:29.38 | JeffM2501 | so the entire list server becomes a set of bots? |
| 08:29.45 | brlcad | sure there is, you can auto-detect their joins to various extents and ban just as fast if not faster or automatic |
| 08:29.52 | DTRemenak | auto-detect how? |
| 08:30.03 | brlcad | and it's one less thing for the server admin to do regardless |
| 08:30.04 | DTRemenak | they change usernames, as you said. they change ips. |
| 08:30.36 | brlcad | they don't always change usernames, there are all categories |
| 08:30.50 | brlcad | the majority actually stick with a name for recoginition I gather |
| 08:31.12 | DTRemenak | brlcad: as a server admin, I have no problem banning a range. if others do, then they may spend the time to chase them. the point is, different people have different opinions of what is worthwhile and what is not. I'd rather not give the cheater the satisfaction of having tied up a dev for n hours |
| 08:31.16 | brlcad | even when I was banning CRW within seconds, he stuck to his name |
| 08:32.14 | DTRemenak | brlcad: and he was enjoying it, you know |
| 08:32.16 | JeffM2501 | yet cell does not IIRC |
| 08:32.28 | brlcad | yes, and we apparently differ on *this* being worthwhile -- I see it as a big problem that is wasteful to delegate |
| 08:32.31 | JeffM2501 | he writes bots to do it |
| 08:32.46 | DTRemenak | he was getting his kicks from watching you try to keep up with him |
| 08:33.04 | brlcad | DTRemenak: perhaps he was enjoying it, but it also seriously limited his damage |
| 08:33.36 | brlcad | which to me, the service being provide, is more important |
| 08:33.40 | DTRemenak | brlcad: I doubt it. typically he doesn't stick around for more than half an hour. that day he did for significantly longer. cheaters HATE being ignored. |
| 08:34.03 | brlcad | logs showed otherwise |
| 08:34.19 | brlcad | he might only stick around for a half hour on one server, but then he'd do it again on another |
| 08:34.24 | brlcad | till someone banned him |
| 08:34.27 | DTRemenak | no, that's from bzfls |
| 08:34.32 | brlcad | then after enough banned, he'd change ips |
| 08:34.41 | brlcad | and repeat |
| 08:35.29 | DTRemenak | he'll switch servers until he's no longer getting a reaction from people |
| 08:35.33 | DTRemenak | then he'll leave for a while |
| 08:35.47 | DTRemenak | as long as he gets a reaction, he'll stay |
| 08:35.52 | DTRemenak | and you can't preempt him |
| 08:36.28 | *** join/#bzflag mithro (n=tim@ppp246-117.static.internode.on.net) |
| 08:38.03 | brlcad | it's still a flawed premise to ignore the problem |
| 08:38.11 | *** join/#bzflag RatOmeter___ (n=chatzill@139.78.95.188) |
| 08:39.01 | brlcad | i'm all for alternative solutions as well -- the one we have does not work effectively |
| 08:39.24 | JeffM2501 | by that you mean masteban? |
| 08:39.39 | brlcad | general issue of banning dynamic IPs |
| 08:39.41 | JeffM2501 | or just having to log in to a server? |
| 08:39.51 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 08:39.56 | JeffM2501 | or we just fix the cheats :) |
| 08:40.01 | DTRemenak | EXACTLY |
| 08:40.04 | DTRemenak | someone gets it |
| 08:40.20 | DTRemenak | that day you spend chasing a cheater, you could spend working on cheat prevention |
| 08:40.21 | brlcad | wtf, that's a given :P |
| 08:40.24 | JeffM2501 | Im still intersted in something other then the admin part |
| 08:40.38 | DTRemenak | it is not worth it to chase them around |
| 08:40.44 | brlcad | cheating isn't the only abuse, there will always be means to abuse |
| 08:40.48 | JeffM2501 | I actualy think irc could solve the entire list server system. |
| 08:41.13 | DTRemenak | brlcad: what other abuse do we care about at the global level? |
| 08:41.20 | JeffM2501 | it may not be the "best" proto, but it is a possible solution. |
| 08:41.33 | brlcad | any that causes a player to get banned across multiple servers |
| 08:41.37 | DTRemenak | spamming maybe, but that's something that can be handled automatically even easier than cheating |
| 08:42.31 | brlcad | otherwise you might as well argue that we should do away with bans and just hunt down fixing all the reasons someone might be banned |
| 08:42.38 | DTRemenak | I disagree. Rules violations on server X should be handled by server X. |
| 08:42.50 | JeffM2501 | I've said we should remove masterban |
| 08:42.58 | DTRemenak | I do argue we should get rid of the global ban systems |
| 08:43.20 | JeffM2501 | we are developers not cops |
| 08:43.22 | DTRemenak | after, of course, we get adequate cheat protection in place |
| 08:43.43 | JeffM2501 | masterban was writen in anger |
| 08:43.48 | JeffM2501 | it is not the jedi way |
| 08:43.53 | brlcad | it's a game, there will always be cheats and abuse |
| 08:44.25 | DTRemenak | masterban is not a terrible stopgap solution. it's not a good permanent solution and it's far from an excellent temporary one. |
| 08:44.50 | *** join/#bzflag Links2004[Links] (n=Links200@88.134.210.139) |
| 08:44.52 | brlcad | eventually, they'd get to the point of being a whole basket of cheats that we can't really do anything about -- it's just obvious now because the cheats are easy to account for |
| 08:44.54 | DTRemenak | most cheats and abuse should be handled at the server level, or at most by coalitions of servers |
| 08:45.11 | DTRemenak | centralized control is just begging for abuse |
| 08:45.21 | JeffM2501 | and those cheaters would go around multiple servers? |
| 08:45.28 | L4m3r | honestly I'm starting to dislike stored bans altogether, at least the way they are now. too many issues keeping it synced. |
| 08:45.31 | JeffM2501 | with the subset of cheats we can't get |
| 08:45.48 | brlcad | i was actually against masterban when it was first worked on |
| 08:45.53 | L4m3r | I'm thinking about making a ban control daemon that just hands down bans when a server starts, no more banfiles |
| 08:45.58 | brlcad | but changed my mind when I looked at it from player perspectives |
| 08:46.09 | brlcad | they don't care |
| 08:46.17 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r why even do that, have a plugin ask your app on a per ban basis |
| 08:46.18 | brlcad | they want to play, they're getting disrupted |
| 08:46.20 | JeffM2501 | no updates |
| 08:46.30 | JeffM2501 | the players want global cops |
| 08:46.35 | JeffM2501 | I'll agree with that |
| 08:46.42 | JeffM2501 | they just want the abbuses to stop |
| 08:46.49 | L4m3r | they HAVE global cops more or less |
| 08:46.53 | DTRemenak | no, they think they want global cops. give them to them, and they'll end up calling them nazis or whatever. |
| 08:47.04 | DTRemenak | and if it's centralized, there's no way out |
| 08:47.06 | JeffM2501 | no L4m3r I can't go to a server and fix stuff NOW |
| 08:47.10 | JeffM2501 | I can add a masterban |
| 08:47.14 | JeffM2501 | but that won't kick a dude |
| 08:47.14 | L4m3r | well, there's like three sets of them that collectively patrol 90% of active servers |
| 08:47.17 | DTRemenak | if it's done with groups of servers, then people can just switch groups |
| 08:47.27 | brlcad | JeffM2501: actually I think it does kick them |
| 08:47.36 | brlcad | when the server gets to loading the update |
| 08:47.42 | JeffM2501 | so when it restarts |
| 08:47.46 | JeffM2501 | or somone manualy loads |
| 08:47.48 | JeffM2501 | next week |
| 08:47.54 | DTRemenak | if the mofo admins start getting all anal, people will just stop playing there. if the *global* admins get all anal, people will just *stop playing bzflag* |
| 08:48.08 | brlcad | from what a couple admins were telling me, it does it instantly when the auto-update is polled |
| 08:48.22 | JeffM2501 | masteban isn't autoed IIRC |
| 08:48.33 | JeffM2501 | some servers do a reload script |
| 08:48.34 | brlcad | i thought so too, but they seemed to indicate otherwise |
| 08:48.36 | JeffM2501 | or plugin |
| 08:48.41 | brlcad | perhaps |
| 08:48.43 | JeffM2501 | there are external ways to force it |
| 08:48.50 | JeffM2501 | I know they do, I added the APIO |
| 08:48.57 | brlcad | sf.net updates on the hour, btw |
| 08:48.59 | DTRemenak | therefore, I will oppose global policing in any form |
| 08:48.59 | JeffM2501 | and DTRemenak made bzchron :) |
| 08:49.13 | DTRemenak | yay bzfscron |
| 08:49.14 | brlcad | DTRemenak: the same can be said of the devs and features |
| 08:49.36 | L4m3r | I'm still trying to get someone to build minicron for me. I think my debian is borked :( |
| 08:49.45 | brlcad | and so far we've been doing alright |
| 08:49.53 | DTRemenak | brlcad: yes, exactly. we already have one group that can cause the game to die. why add another? |
| 08:50.10 | brlcad | so don't add another, keep it the same group for extreme cases |
| 08:50.47 | DTRemenak | that's what masterban is for. extreme cases. eventually extreme cases will go away. |
| 08:50.48 | L4m3r | I don't think it'd be a good idea to do anything more than a remote global ban |
| 08:50.49 | JeffM2501 | I mean hell I can GIVE you global admin on most public servers right now, just add yourself to all the .admin groups on bzbb :) |
| 08:51.18 | L4m3r | speed up propagation maybe but don't do anything more |
| 08:51.25 | JeffM2501 | yes but that's your workflow |
| 08:51.30 | brlcad | very much so |
| 08:51.36 | JeffM2501 | from your argument, any system for that would be better then what we have now |
| 08:51.39 | JeffM2501 | for a team |
| 08:51.55 | JeffM2501 | I'd bet they'd crap a brick |
| 08:52.08 | JeffM2501 | personaly I'd make them seperate |
| 08:52.26 | JeffM2501 | if servers want in on global admin, they can, and we use whatever techs we have for it |
| 08:52.39 | JeffM2501 | if iRC is part of that tech for other reasons, then so be it |
| 08:52.39 | L4m3r | we kinda have that now |
| 08:52.53 | JeffM2501 | but global admin should not drive the IRC idea |
| 08:53.17 | brlcad | that is true |
| 08:53.25 | brlcad | and I don't think it is, gut feeling |
| 08:53.33 | JeffM2501 | hell I write you an IRC->bzadmin bot |
| 08:53.39 | JeffM2501 | and that solves your IRC issue :) |
| 08:53.51 | brlcad | just having access to streaming server info in a read-only manner was what started the idea |
| 08:53.54 | L4m3r | personally I'm more for finding a way to make sure servers are policed by SOMEONE, rather than a specific group. most servers now do have effective administration in place |
| 08:53.55 | JeffM2501 | lib IRC into bzadmin would be cake |
| 08:54.02 | brlcad | (for all servers) |
| 08:54.04 | JeffM2501 | yes I can see that |
| 08:54.12 | JeffM2501 | now if you get all the servers into IRC |
| 08:54.14 | JeffM2501 | for data |
| 08:54.20 | L4m3r | it's just the random ones that get popular with no groups whatsoever, or any real planning or anything |
| 08:54.22 | JeffM2501 | and your gonna get the clients into IRC for chat |
| 08:54.34 | JeffM2501 | woudl you have the clients join the channel for the server? |
| 08:55.02 | L4m3r | sounds like a half-baked attempt to shave off bandwidth usage XD |
| 08:55.03 | purple_cow | uuurgh |
| 08:55.08 | brlcad | no, clients only connect to server |
| 08:55.14 | purple_cow | dinner last night threw my digestive tract out of whack =/ |
| 08:55.22 | JeffM2501 | brlcad why? |
| 08:55.24 | L4m3r | where at, purple_cow? |
| 08:55.33 | JeffM2501 | they are on IRC, why not just send the chat via it? |
| 08:55.49 | L4m3r | :o |
| 08:55.57 | L4m3r | a whole jar? |
| 08:56.08 | purple_cow | it was delicious |
| 08:56.13 | brlcad | JeffM2501: it'd be yet another port to unfirewall, config issues, they already establish a connection to bzfs .. depends what you have them doing and whether we're talking about chit-chat or global relay |
| 08:56.20 | L4m3r | aren't you, like, white? or at least half-white? |
| 08:56.29 | purple_cow | wholly |
| 08:56.30 | purple_cow | why? |
| 08:56.34 | L4m3r | no wonder :P |
| 08:56.37 | JeffM2501 | brlcad but they'd have to do that for your lobby idea as an IRC channel |
| 08:56.42 | JeffM2501 | and friends as IRC right? |
| 08:57.07 | brlcad | yes, for chit-chat lobby it's just custom/limited embedded irc client |
| 08:57.08 | L4m3r | I've sampled kimchi, and it is good, but I can see it screwing up your (lower) digestive tract if you make a meal of it |
| 08:57.10 | JeffM2501 | I'm saying if you had both IRC ideas |
| 08:57.34 | brlcad | they wouldn't actually be on irc for chat while playing |
| 08:57.42 | purple_cow | made me a little too regular =P |
| 08:57.45 | JeffM2501 | why not? |
| 08:57.56 | JeffM2501 | what disadvantage would there be |
| 08:58.00 | L4m3r | but hey, purple_cow, it beats the food poisoning I got from El Pollo Loco a few months back |
| 08:58.06 | brlcad | distractions mostly |
| 08:58.14 | brlcad | if they're going to play, they should play |
| 08:58.24 | JeffM2501 | why not just have it part the lobby channel |
| 08:58.25 | brlcad | if they're going to hang out in the lobby.. |
| 08:58.44 | JeffM2501 | so they lobby |
| 08:58.48 | brlcad | right, but that's what I mean.. they're either in the lobby or in the game |
| 08:58.48 | JeffM2501 | they decide to play |
| 08:58.56 | L4m3r | I see ONE reason to stay connected to a global system while playing... |
| 08:59.02 | JeffM2501 | your STILL connected to the IRC server, part the lobby channel, and join the server channel |
| 08:59.07 | JeffM2501 | no additional distraction |
| 08:59.08 | L4m3r | to give the ability for a friend to page you |
| 08:59.14 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 08:59.19 | JeffM2501 | or to get a chat from a friends list |
| 08:59.25 | JeffM2501 | a PM |
| 08:59.27 | JeffM2501 | while playing |
| 08:59.27 | brlcad | i suppose you could, though i'm not sure what it'd give you |
| 08:59.38 | JeffM2501 | well cross srver chat |
| 08:59.43 | brlcad | i mean if you had both and it joined them to some global channel, perhaps |
| 08:59.45 | JeffM2501 | chat frm externals |
| 09:00.01 | JeffM2501 | or just a server channel |
| 09:00.08 | JeffM2501 | others optional |
| 09:00.12 | JeffM2501 | then at least you get paged |
| 09:00.15 | L4m3r | I get really annoyed when someone comes on a server to solicit a match from a specific player, or just anyone |
| 09:00.20 | JeffM2501 | and your buds on IRC can see where your playing |
| 09:00.29 | JeffM2501 | that's what you'd get |
| 09:00.43 | brlcad | possibly, though auto-away status could do that too |
| 09:00.53 | L4m3r | I almost think jabber would work better |
| 09:01.03 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r I'm not done :) |
| 09:01.05 | brlcad | it could part you from the lobby and leave you without a channel but on the network |
| 09:01.13 | JeffM2501 | brlcad why not just join the server channel |
| 09:01.14 | L4m3r | since we could run it ourselves and make auth easier |
| 09:01.16 | JeffM2501 | what harm is in it |
| 09:01.24 | brlcad | or leave them in the lobby and mark as away i suppose |
| 09:01.32 | JeffM2501 | so you get chat from any IRC user in the server channel too, with no relay |
| 09:01.43 | JeffM2501 | brlcad you do that, then your sending them data |
| 09:01.50 | brlcad | yeah, that would work to |
| 09:01.53 | JeffM2501 | you want the server to not send them lobby they can't see |
| 09:02.04 | brlcad | that doesn't even really entail the global relay |
| 09:02.13 | JeffM2501 | ok, so now if every server has a channel. listing games is just a chanlist |
| 09:02.29 | JeffM2501 | from a nice distributed network :) |
| 09:03.12 | L4m3r | I suppose it's nice for monitoring but not for a ton of servers :P |
| 09:03.15 | JeffM2501 | you've got a bot that can do auth |
| 09:03.28 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r why not? IRC handles hundreds of channels |
| 09:03.47 | JeffM2501 | spaned over a number of hosts |
| 09:03.55 | JeffM2501 | put the list info in the topic |
| 09:04.04 | L4m3r | yeah, but I don't want to sit in 20 of them to watch for asshattery. but, I suppose that could be worked out by other means anyway. |
| 09:04.06 | JeffM2501 | server just has to update it's topic when info changes, bam, instant relist |
| 09:04.20 | brlcad | irc could easily handle our load for channels and users, even to put everyone into one channel |
| 09:04.34 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r so you'd want to have them all join one big ass channel and watch a spam stream? |
| 09:04.41 | brlcad | you could start by just having one global actually |
| 09:04.44 | JeffM2501 | hell have all 'your' servers join a log channel |
| 09:04.48 | L4m3r | no, no, _I_ would do that ;) |
| 09:05.01 | brlcad | if oneone wants to know where you're at, it could be in your away message or they could just ask |
| 09:05.04 | JeffM2501 | and just relay important info to that channel |
| 09:05.12 | L4m3r | just have a bot monitor all of them and relay relevant info to a log channel |
| 09:05.12 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 09:05.13 | JeffM2501 | brlcad I ask cus I prototyuped this all out man |
| 09:05.21 | brlcad | heh |
| 09:05.23 | JeffM2501 | long ago |
| 09:05.27 | JeffM2501 | had it workin |
| 09:05.34 | brlcad | nifty |
| 09:05.39 | JeffM2501 | but there are issues |
| 09:05.44 | JeffM2501 | nicks |
| 09:05.50 | L4m3r | I was about to ask... |
| 09:05.58 | brlcad | hm |
| 09:06.05 | JeffM2501 | by puting all clients on the same server, even for lobby |
| 09:06.16 | JeffM2501 | it means you have to have unique names across all clients |
| 09:06.21 | brlcad | you could auto-prefix or auto-assign |
| 09:06.22 | JeffM2501 | and that is not a requirement now |
| 09:06.27 | L4m3r | we could tie an irc nick to global auth |
| 09:06.28 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 09:06.36 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r you'd have that anyway |
| 09:06.40 | L4m3r | but that adds an annoying setup burden to users |
| 09:06.42 | JeffM2501 | with your listbot that does auth |
| 09:06.43 | brlcad | if the client hilighted the real callsign, it would still be useful |
| 09:06.57 | L4m3r | aliasing? |
| 09:07.01 | L4m3r | that could get nasty |
| 09:07.04 | JeffM2501 | chanserv suports that |
| 09:07.07 | JeffM2501 | right now |
| 09:07.23 | JeffM2501 | you also get a seperate username and callsign |
| 09:07.29 | JeffM2501 | the username could be your global login |
| 09:07.34 | JeffM2501 | the callsign could be your alias |
| 09:07.41 | JeffM2501 | or whatever you play ass |
| 09:07.48 | JeffM2501 | you reg em up with chanserv, your cool |
| 09:07.51 | L4m3r | and you'd never, EVER have to change anyone's name ever again! :D |
| 09:08.00 | JeffM2501 | I don't now |
| 09:08.03 | JeffM2501 | they do it themselves |
| 09:08.16 | L4m3r | does phpBB let you do that? |
| 09:08.20 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 09:08.23 | JeffM2501 | in the profile |
| 09:08.24 | L4m3r | wow |
| 09:08.28 | brlcad | now there's an idea.. you could use actual auto-assigned aliases (bz123571) that the client would auto-translate back to game callsigns |
| 09:08.31 | L4m3r | one thing vBulletin can't do |
| 09:08.41 | brlcad | ahh,b ut that wouldn't work if you wanted to chat with irc folk.. hmm |
| 09:08.57 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 09:08.58 | JeffM2501 | also you'd get name conflicts with other freenode users |
| 09:08.58 | L4m3r | and how would the client do the conversion? |
| 09:09.09 | JeffM2501 | unless we had our own prefix |
| 09:09.10 | brlcad | just a table lookup |
| 09:09.18 | JeffM2501 | but then if we do a prefix, it makes friends harder |
| 09:09.26 | L4m3r | that's a lot of lookups in the lobby channel ;) |
| 09:09.27 | JeffM2501 | as you'd not be able to just enter your buddis name. |
| 09:09.48 | brlcad | yeah, though it would show who is on irc and who was playing theoretically |
| 09:09.48 | L4m3r | well, if we did that as an on-the-side thing it could do reverse lookup |
| 09:09.54 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 09:10.02 | JeffM2501 | if we did our own IRC network it'd be simpler |
| 09:10.06 | brlcad | though someone on irc could fake it |
| 09:10.16 | JeffM2501 | then chanserv hits our global DB |
| 09:10.40 | L4m3r | we could do it like CGI::IRC does now |
| 09:10.43 | brlcad | yeah, there's some merit there, though one network sure would be more clean |
| 09:10.57 | L4m3r | give some default garbage name unless the user specifies their own account |
| 09:10.59 | JeffM2501 | from what I can tell, the only thing freenode gets is is an alraedy set up metnwork |
| 09:11.15 | JeffM2501 | if we had our own, you could have your iRC client join both, and still get your workflow right |
| 09:11.28 | JeffM2501 | and we talked about doing multiple list servers.... |
| 09:11.35 | JeffM2501 | so doing our own network would just be setup |
| 09:11.36 | brlcad | there are network management issues too |
| 09:11.37 | L4m3r | a lot of clients don't support multiple simultaneous network connections :x |
| 09:11.41 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 09:11.45 | brlcad | dealing with setup issues, stability, attacks |
| 09:11.51 | brlcad | freenode takes care of all that |
| 09:11.52 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 09:12.02 | JeffM2501 | but then we have to make compromises |
| 09:12.07 | JeffM2501 | our network could be REALY strict |
| 09:12.12 | JeffM2501 | reg or just get booted |
| 09:12.21 | JeffM2501 | as its only for players and publics |
| 09:12.34 | JeffM2501 | that may help with management |
| 09:13.01 | JeffM2501 | these are just issues I cam up with |
| 09:13.04 | brlcad | limiting the game client to certain channels and adding a chanserv-style bot can provide that same effect |
| 09:13.35 | L4m3r | I think the nick issue is the only BIG thing in the way, and it can be resolved I think |
| 09:13.40 | JeffM2501 | I'm just saying that if you are gonna connect em both to IRC, why waste that connection |
| 09:13.44 | JeffM2501 | when it can do what the server does |
| 09:13.48 | JeffM2501 | and give you more stuff. |
| 09:13.56 | brlcad | server can do it faster |
| 09:14.00 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 09:14.04 | JeffM2501 | and with less bandwith |
| 09:14.08 | brlcad | a lot faster sometimes |
| 09:14.19 | JeffM2501 | but are the advantages of it worth it? |
| 09:14.24 | JeffM2501 | it is chat, not player updates. |
| 09:14.38 | JeffM2501 | we send chat TCP IIRC |
| 09:14.51 | JeffM2501 | so if it was our own network, would it realy be that much slower? |
| 09:14.59 | JeffM2501 | assuming we have the pipe for it. |
| 09:15.16 | L4m3r | the difference is negligible for bz chatter |
| 09:15.23 | brlcad | yeah, i think it would still be that much slower, just because of other factors of IRC |
| 09:15.33 | JeffM2501 | it is more wordy |
| 09:15.37 | L4m3r | IRC only gets real slow when someone floods, and that doesn't happen for bzflag |
| 09:15.39 | JeffM2501 | so more data is sent for each message |
| 09:15.41 | L4m3r | at least not for long |
| 09:15.51 | JeffM2501 | but is the IRCD process inherently slower? |
| 09:16.24 | brlcad | that's also why I suggested "why bother" .. just have them mark themselves as away and not relay in-game chat over irc |
| 09:16.27 | brlcad | leave it to the lobby |
| 09:16.31 | L4m3r | oh, and what about COPPA issues? do we really want the preteens to be on over irc? |
| 09:16.46 | JeffM2501 | if you mark them away, IRCD will still send them data |
| 09:16.54 | JeffM2501 | that wastes client bandwith |
| 09:17.02 | JeffM2501 | that that point, part them |
| 09:17.20 | brlcad | yeah, but it's not the live-action game data |
| 09:17.27 | JeffM2501 | no it's still chat tho |
| 09:17.27 | brlcad | there's no problem for lobby traffic to lag |
| 09:17.28 | JeffM2501 | wasted data |
| 09:17.42 | JeffM2501 | what if that data lags a playing client |
| 09:17.52 | JeffM2501 | for chat he dosn't see in game cus his game filters it |
| 09:17.53 | L4m3r | er... I suppose that we can lock children out of the lobby and have them join the old-fashioned way |
| 09:18.15 | JeffM2501 | at that piont have them join the server channel |
| 09:18.27 | JeffM2501 | don't send chat over IRC from the server |
| 09:19.11 | brlcad | hrm, there are still the fundamental delays though |
| 09:19.11 | JeffM2501 | just so they get annoucenments |
| 09:19.11 | JeffM2501 | well in game chat would sill be sent via old methods |
| 09:19.11 | brlcad | and for that, you really can't have game chatter going on |
| 09:19.12 | JeffM2501 | just chat from IRC and announcments, etcc would get IRC laged |
| 09:19.20 | JeffM2501 | if you dn't send general chat to IRC |
| 09:19.32 | JeffM2501 | it didn't sound like you wante servers to send general chat did you? |
| 09:19.33 | brlcad | that would work |
| 09:19.45 | brlcad | you mean in-game chat? |
| 09:19.49 | L4m3r | yeah, pure IRC would make filtering tricky also |
| 09:19.49 | JeffM2501 | yah |
| 09:20.00 | brlcad | yeah, no .. i just can't see it being responsive enough |
| 09:20.11 | brlcad | the game chat is pretty fast-paced sometimes |
| 09:20.13 | JeffM2501 | even for an observer type situation? |
| 09:20.36 | brlcad | not sure, but "probably" |
| 09:20.36 | JeffM2501 | I mean if YOu on IRC want to go check out a server for a cheater, for whatever reeason, do you want to see the game chat IN that channel? |
| 09:20.49 | brlcad | i've been on bzadmin over a laggy connection.. it's painful to try to talk |
| 09:20.49 | JeffM2501 | so then that chat is just for IRC users |
| 09:21.00 | brlcad | irc wouldn't be much different to that |
| 09:21.13 | JeffM2501 | how is the game faster? |
| 09:21.16 | JeffM2501 | just tighter loop? |
| 09:21.18 | JeffM2501 | less load? |
| 09:21.41 | JeffM2501 | for a priv msg, it's probably about 12 characters less in data |
| 09:21.48 | JeffM2501 | maybe 20 less on average |
| 09:21.54 | brlcad | well as to wanting to go to a server-channel to check on a cheater -- that gets into the debates that you and dtr especially had earlier |
| 09:22.08 | JeffM2501 | I'm just saying for ANY reason |
| 09:22.12 | JeffM2501 | lets say your the owner |
| 09:22.14 | brlcad | there certainly is more immediate benefit just as a lobby and announcement mechanism |
| 09:22.22 | JeffM2501 | perms are irelivatnt in the permision talk |
| 09:22.28 | JeffM2501 | we can assume you are "suposed" to go there |
| 09:22.34 | JeffM2501 | for whatever reason |
| 09:22.53 | JeffM2501 | I'm talking tech now |
| 09:23.30 | brlcad | it's not the packet size, it's the latency on deliver that causes the problem for in-game chat .. for lobby or announcement, it wouldn't really matter |
| 09:23.46 | JeffM2501 | what causes that latency is my question? |
| 09:23.49 | brlcad | i don't think it would have a big impact to relay game chatter to the channel as well |
| 09:24.22 | brlcad | just the nature of irc, or at least big active networks. if everyone says something at once, you're in a pretty big queue |
| 09:24.32 | JeffM2501 | so the load on the server |
| 09:24.33 | brlcad | that queue fluctuates a lot |
| 09:24.38 | JeffM2501 | cus it has to process more |
| 09:24.46 | JeffM2501 | since it's all chat |
| 09:24.47 | JeffM2501 | right? |
| 09:24.56 | JeffM2501 | that's what I get from that statement |
| 09:24.59 | brlcad | pretty much, there are other synchronization issues |
| 09:25.16 | brlcad | getting the message propagated throughout the network since it is distributed |
| 09:25.18 | JeffM2501 | in this case, there would be more data, but also a dedicated CPU |
| 09:25.21 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 09:25.23 | JeffM2501 | yeah there is that |
| 09:25.23 | brlcad | it's not point to point like bz |
| 09:25.25 | JeffM2501 | more hops |
| 09:25.26 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 09:25.29 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 09:26.02 | JeffM2501 | tho you could always rejoin the specific iRC server your game server is using :) |
| 09:26.37 | JeffM2501 | onece your in, you don't need the actual network part, cept to get messages that are ok to be laggy |
| 09:27.30 | brlcad | really, the best balance, at least initially, would probably be to just optionally allow clients to "join irc", which might put them in #bzchat for example -- when they join a server, it marks them as away but is still receiving chatter while they play |
| 09:27.41 | JeffM2501 | I'm not talking initally |
| 09:27.47 | JeffM2501 | big pic, big plan :) |
| 09:27.56 | JeffM2501 | best thign ever, so it culd be part of the design |
| 09:28.17 | brlcad | hmm.. well that gets political apparently |
| 09:28.29 | JeffM2501 | not if you seperate them |
| 09:28.35 | JeffM2501 | I just mean the IRC thing |
| 09:28.40 | JeffM2501 | not the global |
| 09:28.50 | JeffM2501 | assume that some admin by somone is valid |
| 09:28.51 | brlcad | i thought the initial global relay was a clear case given how much I thought it was worth, but couldn't even convince other core devs :) |
| 09:28.53 | JeffM2501 | for that part |
| 09:29.12 | JeffM2501 | but if you can't seperate them in your head I understand. |
| 09:29.42 | brlcad | i have trouble with a lot that invovles my head |
| 09:29.46 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 09:30.04 | JeffM2501 | just doing the IRC stuff would not require the use of a global admin group |
| 09:30.13 | brlcad | yep |
| 09:30.16 | JeffM2501 | a valid use of it coudl be for owner define groups using bzbb |
| 09:30.23 | JeffM2501 | same tech |
| 09:30.23 | brlcad | even the relay stuff doesn't need a global admin group |
| 09:30.28 | JeffM2501 | difrent lyout |
| 09:30.34 | brlcad | just a gallery of activity |
| 09:30.45 | brlcad | sort of like #commits |
| 09:31.03 | JeffM2501 | well if you use that anlogly, what is your CIA |
| 09:31.19 | JeffM2501 | as a lot of people like the idea, but don't ever wade thru #commits |
| 09:31.20 | brlcad | bzfs joining IRC |
| 09:31.26 | JeffM2501 | but use CIA for the stuff they care about |
| 09:31.37 | JeffM2501 | no I mean the thing that seperates our YOUR stuff |
| 09:31.39 | JeffM2501 | from the mass |
| 09:31.40 | brlcad | the bzfs bot/agent is effectively the server rep |
| 09:32.18 | brlcad | not following the question |
| 09:32.29 | JeffM2501 | #commits does all commits right? |
| 09:32.33 | brlcad | yes |
| 09:32.41 | JeffM2501 | how many users sit there and look at them all and mentaly filter them |
| 09:32.53 | JeffM2501 | and how many have a specific CIA bot just send them what tey want |
| 09:32.55 | JeffM2501 | there project |
| 09:33.04 | JeffM2501 | 2 uses of the same basic sustem |
| 09:33.06 | JeffM2501 | system |
| 09:33.12 | brlcad | you don't, you go there for brief interactions, or join and have hilight notifies set up |
| 09:33.34 | JeffM2501 | if you have a specific CIA bot, you nver do that |
| 09:34.04 | brlcad | well yeah, i don't think *anyone* uses #commits as the place to solely have their commits announced |
| 09:34.12 | JeffM2501 | and the point of the specific bot is to announce to those who do not care to pop in |
| 09:34.22 | JeffM2501 | there may be a similar desire for bzflag |
| 09:34.42 | JeffM2501 | like if someone TKs more then 10 times in x time, notify this channel... |
| 09:34.47 | JeffM2501 | an owner may want that |
| 09:34.52 | JeffM2501 | and that's a cool feature |
| 09:35.07 | brlcad | that's what I meant about having a bot from bzfs that would join a global channel (#commits), as well as their own server-specific channel (#bzflag) |
| 09:35.28 | JeffM2501 | or just have the server do it |
| 09:35.34 | JeffM2501 | instead of this loose botnet |
| 09:35.38 | brlcad | so you could see the entire network if you wanted .. but interactions about be brief or highlight filtered |
| 09:35.50 | JeffM2501 | we had guu sit in commits and relay, it was better to have cia just be split |
| 09:36.21 | brlcad | what do you mean "just have the server do it"? |
| 09:36.29 | JeffM2501 | game server is conencted to IRC allready, why not just have it send to more then one channel? |
| 09:36.47 | brlcad | well yeah.. |
| 09:36.50 | brlcad | but that's the bot :) |
| 09:36.59 | brlcad | game server is connected as some user |
| 09:37.00 | JeffM2501 | why have a bot? you got a server |
| 09:37.08 | JeffM2501 | sure, CIA-16 ;) |
| 09:37.09 | brlcad | s/bot/agent/? |
| 09:37.22 | brlcad | by bot, i just mean not a real person |
| 09:37.30 | JeffM2501 | k |
| 09:37.34 | brlcad | it is just the server |
| 09:37.40 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 09:37.43 | brlcad | not some script or something |
| 09:37.48 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 09:37.51 | JeffM2501 | cus that would be lame :) |
| 09:37.55 | brlcad | yeah, mini language disconnect |
| 09:38.12 | JeffM2501 | to me the game server isn't a bot |
| 09:38.18 | JeffM2501 | as it has no logic |
| 09:38.22 | JeffM2501 | it's just dumpoing stuff |
| 09:38.29 | brlcad | it has logic, just very very primitive :) |
| 09:38.55 | brlcad | it joins irc with a nick and callsign just like guu, receives and sends just like her.. just does different processing |
| 09:39.20 | JeffM2501 | wonder how hard it would be to proto a BZ that did chat via IRC and see if people notice the delay :) |
| 09:40.15 | brlcad | not sure why you'd want to .. maybe for other irc semantics or something? |
| 09:40.28 | JeffM2501 | curiosity :) |
| 09:40.32 | brlcad | ahh |
| 09:40.38 | brad | what's the point in using irc.. it's just another point of failure. just let bzfs handle all the chat as it is now |
| 09:41.04 | JeffM2501 | it's no difrent then the list |
| 09:41.06 | ruskie | and have bzfs be a single-point-of-failer :) |
| 09:41.10 | JeffM2501 | and it adds other features |
| 09:41.14 | JeffM2501 | also IRC is a network |
| 09:41.18 | JeffM2501 | so it has more then one server |
| 09:41.34 | brad | doesn't mean the one you are connected to won't go down |
| 09:41.38 | JeffM2501 | aka, read the hell up for like a day :) |
| 09:41.52 | JeffM2501 | brad, so you reconect to the next in the network, and it's all good and normal |
| 09:41.55 | brlcad | i think i'd still just start with the lobby and see how well folks respond to just that |
| 09:41.58 | JeffM2501 | your not "stuck" |
| 09:42.03 | *** join/#bzflag Pommes_ (n=Pommes@pD9544FD9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 09:42.04 | brlcad | but yeah..big pic ;) |
| 09:42.47 | brad | and it brings about more problems with firewalls and things like that |
| 09:42.54 | ruskie | erm |
| 09:42.56 | ruskie | what probs |
| 09:42.57 | JeffM2501 | dude read up |
| 09:43.00 | brlcad | there's another big pic for tonight, though, and it involves a guy sleeping a couple hours .. |
| 09:43.03 | ruskie | irc works without probs behind a firewall |
| 09:43.07 | brlcad | especially since others seem to be waking up :) |
| 09:43.11 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 09:43.50 | brlcad | deep thoughts |
| 09:44.01 | brlcad | and thanks for the debate even if it was painful and frustrating :) |
| 09:44.07 | brlcad | i do appreciate the diferent perspective |
| 09:44.20 | JeffM2501 | you have to be able to defend your ideas if they are good ones:) |
| 09:45.02 | brlcad | yeah, I know -- it was on niche grounds to start with, it is a limited community (for the global relay, and global admin) |
| 09:45.35 | JeffM2501 | puting them together is what I think made it hard to swollow |
| 09:45.42 | JeffM2501 | specialy for dtr |
| 09:45.44 | brlcad | but it does boil down to workflows and matters of perspective |
| 09:46.14 | brlcad | well he flat out disagrees with even trying to deal with some issues that I see as major problems |
| 09:46.46 | JeffM2501 | for your workflow issue, an IRC to bzadmin bot runing on .bz woudl work |
| 09:46.53 | brlcad | there's not much room for argument or compromise on that kind of difference of opinion |
| 09:46.58 | JeffM2501 | you coudl just tell it to connect, and then see it all via IRC |
| 09:47.29 | brlcad | possibly, though getting that to all/any servers on demand was also a trick |
| 09:47.36 | brlcad | s/trick/benefit/ |
| 09:47.51 | JeffM2501 | yes, the live log of all servers is a benifit |
| 09:48.06 | JeffM2501 | but only usefull for a very small number of situations |
| 09:48.23 | JeffM2501 | distressing situations sure, but in the long run, it's not the majority of situatons. |
| 09:48.31 | brlcad | i can see dtr's complaints about global adminning, and some that you mentioned |
| 09:48.43 | *** join/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@dialin-79071.ewetel.net) |
| 09:48.46 | JeffM2501 | I don't think a global admin system is a bad idea |
| 09:48.49 | brlcad | but i do think it is something needed, because the users do value it |
| 09:48.51 | JeffM2501 | I think there is a need for it |
| 09:48.58 | JeffM2501 | but I'd make it opt in |
| 09:49.02 | JeffM2501 | not default |
| 09:49.11 | brlcad | same reason why freenode took off even though they imposed global restrictions |
| 09:49.18 | JeffM2501 | you can be on the IRC network and not be part of global admin. |
| 09:49.23 | brlcad | you trust your operators to do well and make good decisions |
| 09:49.38 | brlcad | yeah, they are totally separate |
| 09:49.48 | brlcad | separatable |
| 09:49.51 | JeffM2501 | it also goes with my idea for listing servers |
| 09:50.04 | JeffM2501 | we flag servers that are part of the global system, as "prefered" |
| 09:50.14 | JeffM2501 | and list them first :) |
| 09:50.59 | brlcad | sure, add value and make it worth it to them is a great approach :) |
| 09:51.32 | brlcad | i want to set up accredidation levels actually, to distinguish server "calibers" of sorts |
| 09:51.41 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 09:51.44 | brad | <PROTECTED> |
| 09:51.51 | JeffM2501 | for global admin I'd want it to not be devs by default |
| 09:51.51 | brlcad | how much and what sorts of administration infrastructure do they have in place |
| 09:51.58 | JeffM2501 | it'd be made of players, owners, and trusted amdins |
| 09:52.02 | JeffM2501 | with dev as a peer review |
| 09:52.10 | JeffM2501 | no commite stuff |
| 09:52.16 | JeffM2501 | fixed rules, do it or your out |
| 09:52.33 | JeffM2501 | project admins word is final. |
| 09:53.18 | JeffM2501 | then the servers would be agreeing to those terms when they opt in |
| 09:53.23 | brlcad | yeah, i'm off too |
| 09:53.28 | brlcad | cheers |
| 09:53.31 | *** part/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=jeffm@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
| 09:53.35 | mithro | we have 9 apps now |
| 09:53.43 | mithro | brlcad: what you up to? |
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| 10:39.06 | Manu | mithro: we have 6 apps |
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| 10:52.12 | ts | ¡Hola Manu! |
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| 11:24.57 | Manu | hallo ts! |
| 11:29.24 | ts | Manu: Getting new compiler errors, going to ask in crystalspace channel :/ |
| 11:30.08 | [darek] | hi ts, Manu :) |
| 11:31.03 | Manu | hi [darek] :) |
| 11:31.34 | Manu | ts: Macs ;) |
| 11:32.08 | ts | [darek]: Hello |
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| 11:43.24 | mithro | Manu: cool |
| 11:44.52 | Manu | mithro: thanks :) |
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| 13:07.14 | [darek] | ts: I got answer |
| 13:07.38 | [darek] | ts: http://rafb.net/p/F88CMe49.html |
| 13:11.40 | ts | [darek]: Eeek, I just uninstalled wxWidgets |
| 13:12.17 | *** join/#bzflag TheRedBaron (n=kalen@fl-71-49-1-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 13:13.20 | [darek] | ts: uninstalling it's not necessary, even if it doesn't compile it's only one plugin, other thins works good without it |
| 13:15.13 | TheRedBaron | ~menotume++ |
| 13:15.17 | [darek] | ts: btw did you re- ./configure everything after wx installing ? |
| 13:15.30 | menotume | ~menotume-- |
| 13:15.50 | TheRedBaron | ~menotume++ |
| 13:16.00 | menotume | stop ! |
| 13:18.16 | ts | [darek]: Of cours |
| 13:18.18 | ts | e |
| 13:20.23 | [darek] | ts: then indeed it's very odd that ./configure passes wx (by checking that headers exist) and then it can't find that headers in compile time |
| 13:20.55 | [darek] | no idea |
| 13:21.58 | [darek] | ts: can you paste config.log ? it should be there |
| 13:30.06 | ts | [darek]: Let's discuss it in the cs channel |
| 13:33.51 | SportChick | brlcad: you there? |
| 13:34.03 | *** join/#bzflag BearPerson (i=karsten@freenode/staff/sourcemage.wizard.BearPerson) |
| 13:46.42 | SportChick | hi BearPerson |
| 13:46.44 | SportChick | thanks :) |
| 13:46.51 | BearPerson | heya |
| 13:49.45 | TheRedBaron | ~pickle eviltume |
| 13:49.54 | ibot | ACTION crams eviltume in a barrel, adds some brine and seasoning, and lets eviltume sit for a long while in a dark room until eviltume is ripe |
| 13:52.36 | menotume | brlcad has just now entered REM-sleep |
| 13:52.52 | SportChick | hi meanotume |
| 13:52.56 | SportChick | ~lart TheRedBaron |
| 13:54.30 | menotume | hellos |
| 13:57.19 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 13:57.19 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Help || Paste to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9453 || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || http://fisheye1.cenqua.com/browse/bzflag/bzflag || BZFlag is participating in GSoC: http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code || GSoC students -- please include your irc nick in your proposal |
| 13:57.20 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 14:01.36 | TheRedBaron | ~menotume-- |
| 14:02.04 | Links2004[Links] | hi |
| 14:02.19 | Links2004[Links] | me server has many lost and jitter |
| 14:02.39 | Links2004[Links] | but jesterday it was good what |
| 14:02.46 | Links2004[Links] | can i do ? |
| 14:09.26 | SportChick | brlcad: when you get around to it/are ready, I'd ping christel to update/continue the discussions you were having with lilo. She is head of fn staff now and is in best position to deal with your question, I think. BearPerson is here now in the event you have technical questions about the network, etc. |
| 14:11.49 | BearPerson | *nod*... I'm one of the tech monkeys, so if you want any info about how stuff works, how freenode would react to / feel about certain setups or suggestions what you may want to improve when building an irc-like system yourself, feel free to prod me |
| 14:12.35 | inchworm | BearPerson = TechMonkey *nods* |
| 14:13.00 | inchworm | makes perfect sense %) |
| 14:14.42 | BearPerson | :) |
| 14:15.49 | eTangenT | wazzat? |
| 14:15.56 | eTangenT | are we getting a new FN server? |
| 14:18.35 | inchworm | eTangenT: from reading a little bit of the history, i'm getting the impression that there are thoughts on add IRC like admin levels to bzflag |
| 14:19.06 | eTangenT | ah |
| 14:19.27 | eTangenT | where might I find this history, for some reading when I return from work? |
| 14:19.46 | eTangenT | wiki? |
| 14:19.47 | inchworm | probably in jbot's log |
| 14:20.06 | inchworm | i think it's only been discussed in this channel... but I don't really know |
| 14:20.57 | inchworm | make that ibot for this channel |
| 14:21.49 | eTangenT | a, I see |
| 14:22.02 | eTangenT | yeah, I think a global admin thing would be good |
| 14:22.08 | eTangenT | they were discussing that |
| 14:22.31 | eTangenT | as for all admins following the agreed-upon global rules, that ought to work. |
| 14:22.39 | inchworm | probably, its a similar problem and IRC has a decent solution |
| 14:22.52 | inchworm | so make good software, copy from the best |
| 14:22.53 | eTangenT | I think the general rules have always been no language, no cheating, no bad sportsmanship. |
| 14:22.54 | SportChick | eTangenT: they were discussing something different relating to an irc plugin, iiuc |
| 14:23.07 | SportChick | this is urelated to the idea of a global admin group |
| 14:23.08 | eTangenT | SportChick: that was right before the global thing, I think |
| 14:23.16 | SportChick | eTangenT: possibly |
| 14:23.27 | SportChick | it's too early here to read that much backlog ;) |
| 14:23.36 | eTangenT | it's too close to work time to read it |
| 14:23.41 | inchworm | hehe |
| 14:23.44 | SportChick | that too :) |
| 14:23.45 | eTangenT | I start at 9am |
| 14:23.54 | eTangenT | if they make me close again I'm going to be having a word with someone |
| 14:24.01 | eTangenT | yesterday I worked 9:30am to 9:30pm |
| 14:24.04 | inchworm | ouchee |
| 14:24.06 | SportChick | eTangenT: I start when I feel like it - but have to be in a bit early today because I'm meeting someone |
| 14:24.32 | eTangenT | well, I'm out |
| 14:24.34 | eTangenT | peace yo |
| 14:24.35 | eTangenT | :D |
| 14:24.38 | inchworm | later eTangenT |
| 14:24.38 | SportChick | and inchworm, yes, the reading would be in ibot's logs |
| 14:24.43 | eTangenT | ~lart CBG |
| 14:24.49 | SportChick | but they aren't generally posted until about 2AM UCT or so |
| 14:24.54 | inchworm | ahh |
| 14:24.59 | inchworm | so pretty good lag time |
| 14:25.03 | SportChick | not really |
| 14:25.06 | SportChick | the lag is about 2 hours |
| 14:25.14 | SportChick | but they run from midnight to midnight UTC |
| 14:25.25 | SportChick | or it might be GMT, not sure |
| 14:25.35 | SportChick | you'd have to ask Tim to be sure |
| 14:25.48 | inchworm | UTC, GMT,, difference? |
| 14:25.54 | BearPerson | I don't think you'd notice the difference between UTC and GMT ;) |
| 14:25.57 | BearPerson | a few seconds |
| 14:26.10 | BearPerson | UTC has this neat thingy called "leap seconds", iirc |
| 14:26.17 | inchworm | ahh |
| 14:27.09 | inchworm | Universal Coordinate Time.. UTC...must have been a committe |
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| 14:34.02 | SportChick | err, I meant UTC/GMT v. BST |
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| 14:55.12 | TheRedBaron | ~menotume |
| 14:55.15 | ibot | it has been said that menotume is me-not-u-me. Mechanical Electronic Neohuman Optimized for Troubleshooting, Utility and Masterful Exploration, or nothing but trouble |
| 14:55.24 | menotume | lol ! |
| 14:55.53 | TheRedBaron | quite appropiate |
| 14:56.11 | menotume | Trouble with a capital M' |
| 15:17.43 | *** join/#bzflag Bluer (n=Bluer@about/essy/terimahkSC/Bluer) |
| 15:27.14 | brlcad | GSoC submission deadline is now the 26th |
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| 15:47.40 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v menotume] by ChanServ |
| 15:48.44 | brlcad | SportChick: I figured as much as to what it would entail (again) .. just more convos :) |
| 15:49.56 | brlcad | the staff have always been helpful when needed |
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| 15:53.34 | Manu | brlcad: 26th, good :) |
| 15:54.00 | Manu | brlcad: now you can modify the flyers ;) |
| 15:58.51 | *** part/#bzflag kierra (n=kierra@fl-71-49-1-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 16:02.56 | SportChick | brlcad: yep, just wanted to be sure you knew what direction to point |
| 16:03.10 | SportChick | brlcad: also, I asked BearPerson to come camp here in case you had technical questions about it |
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| 16:44.43 | Erroneous | brlcad: I apologize if I said anything offensive last night. Tact is one of those learned skills that starts to fall apart after around midnight or so ;) |
| 16:44.58 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
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| 17:53.29 | JeffM2501 | I did not get a chance to do the box last night tupone_laptop |
| 17:53.39 | JeffM2501 | spent too much time arguing on the interweb :0 |
| 17:53.46 | tupone_laptop | hehe |
| 17:54.07 | JeffM2501 | I looked at it tho |
| 17:54.10 | JeffM2501 | realy hard |
| 17:54.14 | JeffM2501 | for like 5 min |
| 17:54.18 | tupone_laptop | ahh, |
| 17:54.20 | tupone_laptop | :) |
| 17:54.27 | JeffM2501 | I know how to do it now |
| 17:54.41 | [darek] | hi JeffM2501 :) |
| 17:54.45 | JeffM2501 | I just need to plot out all 24 indexes |
| 17:54.47 | JeffM2501 | hi |
| 17:55.16 | tupone_laptop | JeffM2501, do you want I do the submeshes and you fix the uv? |
| 17:58.08 | JeffM2501 | it's more then fix the UV, you need to split the verts |
| 17:58.17 | JeffM2501 | cus your normals ain't right ether |
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| 17:59.27 | *** part/#bzflag kierra (n=kierra@fl-71-49-1-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 17:59.57 | tupone_laptop | ahh, all the vertex should have two normals |
| 18:00.05 | JeffM2501 | 3 |
| 18:01.07 | JeffM2501 | each vert is shared by 3 faces |
| 18:01.07 | JeffM2501 | so they need to be split into 3 seperate verts |
| 18:01.07 | tupone_laptop | but the upper face is in another mesh |
| 18:01.07 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 18:01.07 | JeffM2501 | then sure |
| 18:01.07 | JeffM2501 | 2 :) |
| 18:01.07 | JeffM2501 | so you make a copy of each vert |
| 18:01.07 | tupone_laptop | :) |
| 18:01.07 | JeffM2501 | one with each normal |
| 18:01.07 | JeffM2501 | so you'll have 4 *4 verts/normals/UVs for the walls. |
| 18:01.40 | JeffM2501 | also why arnt' you rotating the CS camera in X to make Z up? |
| 18:01.40 | JeffM2501 | instead of all this hardcode change to swap Y and Z |
| 18:01.41 | JeffM2501 | cus it's not just a flat Z->Y swap |
| 18:01.45 | JeffM2501 | it's a real rotation |
| 18:02.04 | [darek] | tupone_laptop: thingmesh supports extra stuff like multiple uv's, normals, quads etc., but genmesh is very 'standard' mesh only one information per vertex |
| 18:02.07 | tupone_laptop | if you do that way you cannot navigate with walktest |
| 18:02.21 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, so |
| 18:02.28 | JeffM2501 | who cares about walktest |
| 18:02.37 | JeffM2501 | make a copy of walktest that does the rot |
| 18:02.39 | tupone_laptop | maybe in future, we need :/ |
| 18:02.58 | JeffM2501 | I'm concerend about clean code in BZ and a proper geometric represenation |
| 18:03.30 | [darek] | making viewer like walktest is easy, you don't need original walktest |
| 18:03.36 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 18:03.37 | JeffM2501 | ;) |
| 18:03.38 | tupone_laptop | I understand is a z <->-y |
| 18:03.49 | JeffM2501 | it's simpler to do the rot |
| 18:04.22 | [darek] | exporting from xyz blender we just changing z <-> y |
| 18:04.24 | tupone_laptop | and gravity too as to be changed , |
| 18:04.32 | [darek] | i mean xzy belnder |
| 18:05.12 | JeffM2501 | bz gravity is in Z |
| 18:05.19 | JeffM2501 | moding a viewer should not be hard |
| 18:05.33 | JeffM2501 | and that should not be the reason to have to go back and redo a bunch of code again later |
| 18:07.17 | tupone_laptop | well, ok. I can agree on that. I saw the problem navigating with the joystick. and mouse. If you think we need a simple rotation, do it, there is no problem for me |
| 18:07.51 | JeffM2501 | oh I don't know where to do it, and at my work rate right now I don't know if I can get to it soon |
| 18:08.04 | JeffM2501 | it's just my opinion that you should get it done before you make too much geometry |
| 18:08.16 | JeffM2501 | it's your project |
| 18:08.42 | tupone_laptop | well, I have to reswap tank coordinate. the worst is already done |
| 18:09.07 | JeffM2501 | tanks arn't the worst |
| 18:09.09 | JeffM2501 | world geo is |
| 18:09.13 | JeffM2501 | effects |
| 18:09.14 | JeffM2501 | all that |
| 18:09.27 | JeffM2501 | every one of those things would have to have Y to Z conversions |
| 18:09.28 | tupone_laptop | why, all is coming from the world, and will be procedural |
| 18:09.47 | tupone_laptop | would be 30/40 places |
| 18:09.49 | JeffM2501 | yeah all that code will have to do the procedural stuff |
| 18:09.52 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 18:10.06 | JeffM2501 | why do it that much when one rotation in the camera is better |
| 18:10.28 | tupone_laptop | is not just a rotation |
| 18:10.32 | JeffM2501 | yes it is |
| 18:10.38 | tupone_laptop | I should invert a coordinate |
| 18:10.44 | JeffM2501 | the rotation WILL invert |
| 18:10.51 | JeffM2501 | rotate the camera around X 90 |
| 18:10.59 | JeffM2501 | then when you move it in local coords, it's done |
| 18:11.02 | JeffM2501 | we do that for GL |
| 18:11.07 | JeffM2501 | allready |
| 18:11.31 | tupone_laptop | hmm, we should go from a left hand world, to a right hand world |
| 18:11.44 | JeffM2501 | our world is right hand |
| 18:12.00 | tupone_laptop | we need an inversion then |
| 18:12.06 | JeffM2501 | CS is left hand? |
| 18:12.07 | tupone_laptop | because CS is left |
| 18:12.11 | JeffM2501 | WTF!!! |
| 18:12.41 | tupone_laptop | but maybe we can do with a transformation, but not quite sure |
| 18:12.55 | JeffM2501 | Y is up, X is left, Z is out of the screen? |
| 18:13.06 | tupone_laptop | x is left to right, y is down to up, z i sback to front |
| 18:13.25 | JeffM2501 | down to up, in 3d? |
| 18:13.30 | JeffM2501 | not just the 2d? |
| 18:13.31 | tupone_laptop | yep |
| 18:13.37 | JeffM2501 | WOW |
| 18:13.46 | JeffM2501 | next reason to dislike CS then |
| 18:14.13 | JeffM2501 | that breaks so many things in math |
| 18:14.57 | tupone_laptop | that is just a convention |
| 18:16.17 | tupone_laptop | so Y is up, X is right, Z is inside the screen (in your language) |
| 18:17.30 | [darek] | yep |
| 18:19.10 | JeffM2501 | that's basic GL |
| 18:19.12 | JeffM2501 | right hand rule |
| 18:19.33 | JeffM2501 | rotate around X 90 and that puts Y into the screen and Z up |
| 18:19.36 | JeffM2501 | still right hand |
| 18:22.57 | tupone_laptop | if X is the thumb, Y is the forefinger, and Z is the medium, I can get to that system only with the left hand :/ |
| 18:24.00 | tupone_laptop | or I have to put the finger in a strange position |
| 18:24.04 | [darek] | then you can make GetX() GetY() and GetZ() methods for BZ |
| 18:24.25 | [darek] | GetX will be x |
| 18:24.35 | [darek] | GetY will be -z |
| 18:24.40 | [darek] | Get Z will be -y |
| 18:24.44 | [darek] | (I think) ;) |
| 18:25.17 | [darek] | it will convert xyz to xzy and left to right |
| 18:25.55 | daxxar | what about black to white? and right to wrong? |
| 18:26.19 | [darek] | you need Black() and Right() then ;) |
| 18:26.31 | [darek] | or White() and Wrong() |
| 18:26.49 | daxxar | Ah. Black() { return white; } Right() { return ~right; } |
| 18:27.04 | brlcad | Erroneous: naw, I said after you left that I actually appreciated the discourse (even if it didn't sound like I did) |
| 18:27.08 | [darek] | yeah good idea ;) |
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| 18:29.12 | brlcad | Erroneous: and I find the debate useful even if it was painful and frustrating, and even though we outright disagree on several points -- useful perspective |
| 18:29.32 | Erroneous | useful is good :) |
| 18:30.28 | Erroneous | just didn't want to leave you with the impression that I hated you or thought you were an idiot or something, 'cause it's just not true :) |
| 18:31.54 | brlcad | heh, I'm not sure it would matter if you did think I was an idiot either way :) |
| 18:32.38 | brlcad | I just saw it as a disagreement .. I understood your points and even agree with many of them, a couple I hadn't thought of deeply (or at least hadn't cared about), and others I have and feel differently about |
| 18:32.58 | tupone_laptop | brlcad, is an idiot, where is your genius twins, IIRC learner |
| 18:33.06 | brlcad | heh |
| 18:33.17 | brlcad | i killed him |
| 18:33.24 | tupone_laptop | :) |
| 18:33.47 | brlcad | he had more karma than I did |
| 18:33.50 | brlcad | ~karma learner |
| 18:33.50 | ibot | learner has karma of 91 |
| 18:33.51 | Erroneous | hehe |
| 18:33.54 | Erroneous | ~karma brlcad |
| 18:33.54 | ibot | brlcad has karma of 125 |
| 18:34.00 | brlcad | that problem is no longer a problem |
| 18:35.10 | brlcad | now if only Highlander rules applied and I could absorb his karma |
| 18:35.49 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, [darek] if you have to convert to left hand, do whatever you want, I'd hate to see crap like GetX everywhere, as that's a hack. |
| 18:35.55 | JeffM2501 | but your on your own for that one. |
| 18:36.16 | brlcad | eww |
| 18:36.20 | tupone_laptop | ~karma tupone |
| 18:36.20 | ibot | tupone has karma of 156 |
| 18:36.24 | tupone_laptop | :) |
| 18:36.26 | brlcad | isn't there a way to set CS's coordinate system? |
| 18:36.34 | Erroneous | ~karma DTRemenak |
| 18:36.34 | ibot | dtremenak has karma of 240 |
| 18:36.36 | Erroneous | :) |
| 18:36.40 | JeffM2501 | one would hope there would be |
| 18:36.57 | brlcad | I don't think BZ's should change |
| 18:37.05 | Manu | ~karma Manu |
| 18:37.05 | ibot | manu has karma of 7 |
| 18:37.06 | JeffM2501 | indded |
| 18:37.10 | brlcad | z is up, damnit |
| 18:37.10 | Manu | I'm bad :) |
| 18:37.17 | JeffM2501 | this is why when I evail an engine, firs tthing I do is make a map viewer :) |
| 18:37.23 | Erroneous | if bz's changed lots of stuff would get screwy. not to mention that it's, ehm, right :) |
| 18:37.35 | tupone_laptop | I'm not changing bz, just using y as a 3rd params, and z and the 2nd |
| 18:37.54 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, so you have a lot of ugly conversion code |
| 18:38.02 | tupone_laptop | where? |
| 18:38.03 | JeffM2501 | everything bz intefaces to the engine |
| 18:38.14 | JeffM2501 | that swap is the conversion |
| 18:38.15 | brlcad | tupone_laptop: but they're an engine, I'd think that they might have some internal means to support left/right and 90 degree rotations |
| 18:38.37 | brlcad | so that you don't have to swap |
| 18:38.41 | [darek] | JeffM2501: you mean convert to right hand ? |
| 18:38.45 | JeffM2501 | YES |
| 18:38.53 | tupone_laptop | [darek], could you verify if that is possible? |
| 18:38.54 | JeffM2501 | can cs do right hand? |
| 18:39.02 | Manu | brlcad: yes, coordinate system in CS is a bit weird ;) |
| 18:39.05 | brlcad | some overarching setting |
| 18:39.37 | brlcad | applyGlobalTransformation() or useRightHandSystem() or whatever :) |
| 18:39.49 | [darek] | JeffM2501: I think left-hand xyz is hardcoded, but i'll check it if there is something to change it globally |
| 18:39.51 | JeffM2501 | makeNotStupid() |
| 18:40.00 | brlcad | heh |
| 18:40.06 | JeffM2501 | makeStupid(false); |
| 18:40.07 | JeffM2501 | there :) |
| 18:40.08 | tupone_laptop | I think they have used the screen in vertical position, while the correct way is horizontal |
| 18:40.29 | JeffM2501 | why would you hardcode your CS |
| 18:40.45 | JeffM2501 | very my way or the highway |
| 18:41.14 | brlcad | that's the main/old dispute .. is the coordinate system centered around your display, or around the thing your displaying (the geometry/world/3D environment) |
| 18:41.19 | [darek] | there are not "werid coordinate systems" |
| 18:41.30 | [darek] | many projects usign this only |
| 18:41.37 | JeffM2501 | math works in right hand |
| 18:41.59 | [darek] | well renderman for exampel has the same coordinates left-hand xyz |
| 18:42.05 | tupone_laptop | brlcad, the problem come when you use only 2 coordinate in the screen. In bzflag world you have to use x and z but mostly like to use x and y |
| 18:42.07 | JeffM2501 | so renderman is wrong too :) |
| 18:42.20 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, but we arn't defining screen values |
| 18:42.28 | JeffM2501 | the screen is a pojection into a 3d world |
| 18:42.36 | JeffM2501 | that's the POINT of the projection matrix |
| 18:42.45 | JeffM2501 | to take 3d and turn it into 2d |
| 18:42.46 | brlcad | they're focus is on rendering.. around the display.. and not the scene/model itself, hence the left |
| 18:43.02 | tupone_laptop | hmm, what about then the call that some provide, with only 2 coordinate |
| 18:43.11 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, know any cad systms that do Y up? |
| 18:43.18 | JeffM2501 | I've only seen modelers. |
| 18:43.32 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, then that's not a 3d conversion |
| 18:43.35 | brlcad | none come to mind, but i'm sure one or two out there probably do if only to be different |
| 18:43.36 | JeffM2501 | that's a 2d system |
| 18:43.53 | tupone_laptop | I know, but a think the problem come from that perspective |
| 18:43.59 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 18:44.03 | Manu | [darek]: is not really weird, but I find more natural the bzflag way :) |
| 18:44.14 | [darek] | it's only habit ;) |
| 18:44.17 | JeffM2501 | it's common when dealing with virtual spaces |
| 18:44.18 | Manu | yes :) |
| 18:44.29 | JeffM2501 | and the trig works that way |
| 18:44.39 | tupone_laptop | hmm? |
| 18:44.51 | JeffM2501 | trig out an angle with sin and cos into a vector |
| 18:44.59 | JeffM2501 | it goes from X to Y as you do postivie rotations |
| 18:45.09 | tupone_laptop | you mean they don't work in the other way? |
| 18:45.15 | JeffM2501 | not in the same way |
| 18:45.20 | JeffM2501 | you end up with reversed rotations. |
| 18:45.23 | JeffM2501 | IIRC |
| 18:45.35 | Manu | [darek]: same happens with 2D, different projects use differents places for the 0,0 coordinate |
| 18:45.46 | [darek] | maybe it's also good idea to change only engine plugin, then bzflag can use custom one |
| 18:46.00 | tupone_laptop | radar angle increase from north going like the clock, analog clock too, and IT WORKS!! |
| 18:46.04 | JeffM2501 | you mean make our own renderer? |
| 18:46.11 | [darek] | not renderer |
| 18:46.18 | [darek] | engine it's just plugin |
| 18:46.25 | JeffM2501 | radar angle is done in right hand rule in our 2d :) |
| 18:46.26 | [darek] | also renderer it's just plugin |
| 18:46.35 | [darek] | or mayeb better idea is to change renderer |
| 18:46.38 | JeffM2501 | we add a 90 rot to it to make 0 be "up" |
| 18:46.46 | [darek] | I don't know now, just an idea |
| 18:47.15 | [darek] | there is another plugin for isometric worlds |
| 18:48.05 | [darek] | then coordinated there are are probably completly changed (I don't know because i never interestede that plugin and didn't looking inside) |
| 18:48.58 | brlcad | JeffM2501: quick survey: autocad, catia, solidworks, unigraphics, and pro-e are all right-handed by default, though several support either and just default to right |
| 18:49.41 | [darek] | pixar's renderman is also pro ;) |
| 18:49.43 | brlcad | wow, there's like 7 billion dollars of industry |
| 18:50.39 | brlcad | [darek]: i'd expect anything where the focus is 2D or rendering to be a LHS, even of 3d environments |
| 18:51.06 | brlcad | it's where the focus shifts to the 3D environment .. the objects and "scene" per se, that RHS is more convenient |
| 18:51.58 | tupone_laptop | [darek], CEL coordinate system is left or right? is equal to CS or it has its own? |
| 18:51.59 | brlcad | parts analysis, machining, cad design, etc |
| 18:52.43 | [darek] | I think there is no 'more convenient' things, what is more convenient kilometres or miles ? |
| 18:53.10 | Manu | tupone_laptop: left or right.. differents points of view :) |
| 18:53.16 | brlcad | not quite the same comparison -- more like writing with your left or right hand :P |
| 18:53.42 | brlcad | both can work, and there are inherint tradeoffs to both |
| 18:53.51 | [darek] | yes maybe not quite same, but everything is relative |
| 18:54.40 | brlcad | still, given CS is an engine .. it would make sense that there be an option to support either |
| 18:55.35 | [darek] | yes |
| 18:55.37 | brlcad | it could perform translations internally as needed, swap args to ogl calls or whatever it needs based on a flag or some other global matrix transform |
| 18:55.40 | [darek] | I'll check this if it's possible, I don't know yet, probably not |
| 18:55.48 | tupone_laptop | the first 2 coordinate that you use are the one you use to solve more problems, and the one describing the plane are the most useful for the human. So x and y are for the plane |
| 18:56.05 | tupone_laptop | well, whatever |
| 18:56.12 | [darek] | I need to ask core devs about that |
| 18:56.44 | brlcad | tupone_laptop: exactly.. hence for placing objects in a world .. that coordinate becomes the ground plane and z goes up ;) |
| 18:57.07 | tupone_laptop | and x,y are the screen coordinate for accessing the screen ,even if the screen is positioned vertically |
| 18:57.07 | brlcad | for drawing pixels, it becomes the display buffer |
| 18:57.34 | [darek] | well 4th coordinate it's time, where it goes ? :) |
| 18:58.30 | brlcad | we lose track of time, because it assumed X was up |
| 18:58.31 | tupone_laptop | and z is out the ground as normally you hate negative value, and you can put a lower value on the ground |
| 18:59.28 | Manu | [darek]: we have a replay system, it's the 4th coordinate ;) |
| 18:59.40 | [darek] | :) |
| 19:01.33 | tupone_laptop | the texture we use in bzflag is more a CS texture or a CS material? |
| 19:03.13 | [darek] | material |
| 19:03.28 | [darek] | you can't use textures directly |
| 19:03.32 | Manu | brlcad: :) |
| 19:03.35 | [darek] | texture is image only |
| 19:03.45 | [darek] | and CS shows only materials |
| 19:03.55 | [darek] | because of shaders |
| 19:04.00 | [darek] | every material has shader |
| 19:04.17 | [darek] | (but not exactly same sam gfx card shader) |
| 19:04.26 | [darek] | sam = as |
| 19:04.35 | tupone_laptop | hmm, ok when we have a texture from bzflag we should create a texture and a material |
| 19:04.42 | [darek] | even software render using shaders |
| 19:04.51 | [darek] | yes |
| 19:05.40 | tupone_laptop | we have a general object that take into account all texture, we should modify it to create texture and material, then |
| 19:06.20 | [darek] | textures can be customizable by mapmakers too ? |
| 19:06.25 | tupone_laptop | [darek], when you have some spare time, could you add the mountain to the background. I think you can do that in xml. |
| 19:06.27 | tupone_laptop | yep |
| 19:07.03 | [darek] | ok |
| 19:07.04 | tupone_laptop | for the mountain, perhaps we need later to do that from code, as IIRC, they are customizable too |
| 19:07.24 | tupone_laptop | but better to start from something :) |
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| 19:31.33 | wizart | hi. What about a feature which would let you control mouse sensitivity and the size of the center and edge areas for both x and axis independendly ? |
| 19:32.07 | wizart | This mousebox is rather limited right now |
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| 19:43.09 | [darek] | there is no global switching coordinate system in CS |
| 19:43.30 | tupone_laptop | and CEL, what coordinate use? |
| 19:43.49 | [darek] | the same |
| 19:43.55 | tupone_laptop | ahh |
| 19:44.10 | [darek] | but using CS it's easy to change it |
| 19:44.14 | [darek] | using CEL isn't |
| 19:44.25 | [darek] | because it has ready classes like actormove |
| 19:44.42 | [darek] | and this move is hardly related to Y up |
| 19:45.24 | tupone_laptop | well, for now I just think to go swapping at each call, y with z |
| 19:45.39 | tupone_laptop | they should not be too much IMHO |
| 19:52.28 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, good, that's what jives with my feelings :) |
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| 20:00.45 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, right to left makes sens for why you can just do a Z to Y |
| 20:00.55 | JeffM2501 | good luck with it tho |
| 20:01.55 | tupone_laptop | What you mean? |
| 20:02.19 | JeffM2501 | since your going from left to right, that takes care of the -y change you'd normaly have to |
| 20:02.25 | JeffM2501 | so you can just swap |
| 20:02.31 | JeffM2501 | cus the swap efectivly negates Y |
| 20:03.01 | tupone_laptop | yeah, I swapped y with z. |
| 20:03.56 | JeffM2501 | yeah, I'm just saying I understand why that works now |
| 20:04.47 | JeffM2501 | doing that for a right hand 90 deg rot, would not work |
| 20:04.47 | tupone_laptop | but I went to the conclusion of a mirrored world, when I saw joystick pointing to left, and tank going to right |
| 20:04.47 | JeffM2501 | but for a rot AND a left/right swap it'll work |
| 20:05.05 | tupone_laptop | so I had to do the things I did. After that I read actually what they were doing |
| 20:05.18 | [darek] | I see word "90 deg" here.... I don't want to start another flame war but... cs uses radians ;) :D |
| 20:05.32 | Manu | heh |
| 20:06.53 | JeffM2501 | yeah sure |
| 20:06.56 | JeffM2501 | most systems do |
| 20:06.58 | JeffM2501 | Gl does |
| 20:07.05 | JeffM2501 | it's just saying 1/2 pi, is odd ;) |
| 20:07.52 | [darek] | *phew* |
| 20:07.53 | [darek] | :) |
| 20:08.28 | JeffM2501 | all the trig funcs in C use radians, so it's common |
| 20:08.44 | Manu | degree are for humans only :) |
| 20:08.49 | JeffM2501 | tho our maps define stuff in deg, we know we have to convert them |
| 20:08.56 | JeffM2501 | hand typing in radians is a pain. |
| 20:09.07 | [darek] | yeah true |
| 20:09.15 | JeffM2501 | we used to use radians |
| 20:09.21 | JeffM2501 | the conversion was a pain |
| 20:09.30 | JeffM2501 | bzedit IIRC still has a function to do the angle conversion :) |
| 20:11.06 | [darek] | well why not to use const PI, PI/2 PI*2 is quite human-readable |
| 20:11.17 | JeffM2501 | it just wasn't done that way |
| 20:11.35 | JeffM2501 | at that point you have to still convert |
| 20:11.39 | JeffM2501 | and most humans know degrees |
| 20:11.42 | JeffM2501 | so... |
| 20:12.03 | tupone_laptop | [darek], one thing maybe you should think about: we do a strange rendering (called 8 dimension) that is when you are inside the building. You can check for it using the OO flag and going inside. Maybe a particle system or something volumetric |
| 20:12.04 | JeffM2501 | and the deg -> rad is a simple conversion |
| 20:12.22 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, that's just some added geo |
| 20:12.23 | JeffM2501 | it's easy |
| 20:12.30 | JeffM2501 | just an effect |
| 20:12.48 | [darek] | OO flag ? |
| 20:12.49 | JeffM2501 | a particle system will work for that simple |
| 20:12.50 | tupone_laptop | and another thing is the radar |
| 20:12.57 | JeffM2501 | Osoclational Overthruster |
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| 20:13.04 | JeffM2501 | lets you go thru solid objects |
| 20:13.15 | JeffM2501 | bucaroo banzai style :) |
| 20:13.38 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, dont' forget PZ too |
| 20:13.43 | tupone_laptop | yep |
| 20:13.51 | blast007 | Oscillation* |
| 20:13.54 | [darek] | ok, I don't know too well bz yet :) I killed only 4 tanks to this time, but I'm learning |
| 20:14.05 | JeffM2501 | they are just effects we do for some states |
| 20:14.12 | JeffM2501 | nothing that can't be done with some coding |
| 20:16.33 | tupone_laptop | JeffM2501, what are the modulatedColor, LightedColor ... Are they for non textured rendering ? |
| 20:16.44 | JeffM2501 | where do you see this? |
| 20:16.49 | tupone_laptop | on SceneBuilder |
| 20:17.04 | JeffM2501 | for what object? |
| 20:17.08 | JeffM2501 | mehses? |
| 20:17.18 | tupone_laptop | boxes, wall ... |
| 20:17.26 | JeffM2501 | let me look |
| 20:17.26 | tupone_laptop | pyr |
| 20:17.30 | JeffM2501 | probably just turns on the blend mode |
| 20:17.43 | JeffM2501 | we have more then one way of doing the color |
| 20:17.54 | JeffM2501 | we can mix it with the texture, if the texture is grayscale |
| 20:18.01 | JeffM2501 | or just have it be the base for color images |
| 20:18.10 | tupone_laptop | I'm worried if I need to do all this variation |
| 20:18.39 | tupone_laptop | if they are ignored for hi--quality, I will do the same |
| 20:19.16 | daxxar | ~lart Iwanowitch |
| 20:19.17 | JeffM2501 | don't thing quality is the issue but the input |
| 20:19.18 | JeffM2501 | let me look |
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| 20:23.51 | Constitution | ~JeffM2501++ |
| 20:24.04 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, it's used if lighting is on or off |
| 20:24.14 | JeffM2501 | the lighted color is flat |
| 20:24.25 | JeffM2501 | the modulated color is for when there is no lighting so it's not fullbright |
| 20:24.33 | JeffM2501 | do you intend to suport no lighing? |
| 20:24.43 | JeffM2501 | in general high quality does lighting |
| 20:24.52 | JeffM2501 | I can't see a reason to turn it off like that |
| 20:24.56 | JeffM2501 | I'd always do basic lighting |
| 20:25.03 | JeffM2501 | then let them turn off dynamics if it's too slow |
| 20:25.09 | tupone_laptop | so I remove that setting |
| 20:25.22 | JeffM2501 | yeah, just use the lighted color then |
| 20:25.44 | tupone_laptop | what is instead the dynamic? |
| 20:25.50 | JeffM2501 | huh? |
| 20:25.54 | tupone_laptop | something that trepan did? |
| 20:25.59 | JeffM2501 | our shot glows |
| 20:26.09 | JeffM2501 | those are dynamic moving lights. |
| 20:26.14 | JeffM2501 | we use GL lights for those |
| 20:26.23 | JeffM2501 | those are the slowdowns, not the sun :) |
| 20:26.35 | menotume | BAR's 1000th official match will be in 5 mins at DUC:59998 |
| 20:26.36 | tupone_laptop | I mean on the Walls there is a setting for dynamic color |
| 20:28.09 | JeffM2501 | yeah you can overide most of the basic colors with a material dynamic IIRC |
| 20:30.16 | TheRedBaron | JeffM2501: are alot of people asking you "stuf" or to "stfu" |
| 20:30.26 | JeffM2501 | stuff |
| 20:30.34 | JeffM2501 | we have a show next week |
| 20:30.38 | JeffM2501 | so people get pissy |
| 20:34.58 | tupone_laptop | hmmm we set color[3] = 1.0f 4 times in WallSceneNode.cxx Maybe we were trying to enforce that :) |
| 20:35.31 | JeffM2501 | if there is a texture and lighting, you use white |
| 20:35.39 | JeffM2501 | as the texture and lighting will take care of the rest |
| 20:35.45 | tupone_laptop | well, color[3] is only the alpha |
| 20:35.50 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 20:35.53 | tupone_laptop | 4 times is too much |
| 20:35.55 | JeffM2501 | probalby just habbit |
| 20:35.58 | JeffM2501 | or copy paste |
| 20:36.02 | tupone_laptop | yep |
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| 20:46.47 | Dessy | have anyone the htf plugin for linux? |
| 20:46.54 | Dessy | for 2.0.x? |
| 20:47.58 | JeffM2501 | it's in the source tree isn't it? |
| 20:48.02 | JeffM2501 | just build it |
| 20:48.20 | Dessy | i can build only the plugin? |
| 20:48.36 | JeffM2501 | probably not |
| 20:48.43 | JeffM2501 | but asking for it for "linux" is hard |
| 20:48.48 | JeffM2501 | as there are difrent systems with difrent libs |
| 20:49.01 | JeffM2501 | on distro/version may not build a compatable binary for another |
| 20:49.08 | JeffM2501 | just build it all |
| 20:49.13 | JeffM2501 | it's the safe bet |
| 20:49.23 | Dessy | aha |
| 20:49.23 | JeffM2501 | you can have it just build the server and plugins IIRC. |
| 20:50.38 | Dessy | ah |
| 20:50.54 | Dessy | i have see i have already a htf.so |
| 20:51.31 | Dessy | but if i start the server and i will test it, it dont work |
| 20:52.01 | Dessy | -loadplugin "/home/bzflag/plugins/htf.so,team=red" |
| 20:52.04 | Dessy | thats rightß |
| 20:58.19 | *** join/#bzflag Blue_Eyes (n=Blue@host8-221-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 20:59.01 | JeffM2501 | IIRC it dosnt' go in quotes |
| 20:59.28 | JeffM2501 | but I'm not sure on how that plugin works, I didn't work on it |
| 21:00.04 | Dessy | hm |
| 21:00.28 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (n=frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 21:10.53 | *** join/#bzflag philbrick34 (n=ccd248c3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:14.14 | *** join/#bzflag edward_the_vampi (n=47cb75ed@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:18.22 | menotume | ~hapbir Chestal ! |
| 21:18.24 | ibot | ACTION sings a variant of Happy Birthday (to avoid royalty fees) to Chestal ! |
| 21:18.38 | SportChick | HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CHESTAL |
| 21:19.22 | [darek] | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:19.34 | [darek] | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:19.38 | [darek] | sorry |
| 21:19.49 | [darek] | o dropped keyboard |
| 21:19.57 | [darek] | happy birthday btw |
| 21:19.59 | [darek] | :) |
| 21:20.50 | Chestal | thanks :-) |
| 21:21.01 | Dessy | happy birthday, chestal! have a nice day! |
| 21:21.22 | philbrick34 | happy b-day!:)!:) |
| 21:22.22 | menotume | it took a lot to get it out of Chestal :) |
| 21:22.47 | TheRedBaron | chestal: Did you win vs bar? |
| 21:23.15 | Chestal | yes, 7-5 |
| 21:23.23 | TheRedBaron | ~menotume++ |
| 21:23.38 | TheRedBaron | menotume: nice of you to let chestal win on his birthday ;) |
| 21:23.52 | Chestal | I appreciate it |
| 21:25.05 | Links2004[Links] | hi |
| 21:25.06 | Links2004[Links] | howto compile a bzflag plugin |
| 21:25.13 | *** join/#bzflag Colbertff (n=Colbertf@adsl-76-214-177-114.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:25.28 | Links2004[Links] | in linux |
| 21:25.59 | Links2004[Links] | i have compile the bzflag 2.0.9 on my server |
| 21:26.17 | Links2004[Links] | howto make the plugins ? |
| 21:26.45 | L4m3r | which plugins? |
| 21:26.52 | Links2004[Links] | HTF |
| 21:27.18 | L4m3r | to build the ones that come with bzflag, you have to add "--enable-shared --enable-plugins" when you run ./configure |
| 21:27.35 | L4m3r | and they'll be built when you run make |
| 21:27.54 | Links2004[Links] | k |
| 21:28.19 | Birdie | how young did chestal got? |
| 21:29.10 | Chestal | it's a secret |
| 21:29.27 | Birdie | a secret with a 2 3 4 or 5 |
| 21:29.30 | Birdie | or 6:) |
| 21:29.47 | *** join/#bzflag Gnurdux (n=gnurdux@69.251.252.148) |
| 21:30.19 | Dessy | lol |
| 21:30.53 | JeffM2501 | philbrick34, were to looking for me the other day? |
| 21:34.36 | Links2004[Links] | i have make make ^^ who is the HTF.so |
| 21:35.42 | Dessy | he means where is the htf.sp |
| 21:35.44 | Dessy | n*so |
| 21:35.49 | Dessy | *.so |
| 21:37.15 | L4m3r | I don't remember... it's in a libs/plugins directory somewhere in the place you compiled bzflag |
| 21:37.45 | Links2004[Links] | make install too ? |
| 21:37.55 | L4m3r | no, not necessary |
| 21:38.15 | *** join/#bzflag philhartfer (n=41bdb9f4@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:38.39 | Links2004[Links] | i have no ordner libs in CVS |
| 21:40.59 | Links2004[Links] | i found a HoldTheFlag.a but no HoldTheFlag.so |
| 21:41.24 | L4m3r | JeffM2501: do you remember where the SOs go? |
| 21:41.58 | JeffM2501 | some hiden folder |
| 21:42.03 | JeffM2501 | IIRC |
| 21:42.05 | philbrick34 | lol |
| 21:42.09 | philbrick34 | oops sorry |
| 21:42.29 | L4m3r | .libs? |
| 21:42.40 | JeffM2501 | maybe |
| 21:43.33 | Links2004[Links] | no .so in /home/make/bzflag/plugins/HoldTheFlag/.libs |
| 21:44.27 | Links2004[Links] | only .a .la .lai |
| 21:45.23 | *** join/#bzflag Grand (n=ccd248c3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:46.05 | JeffM2501 | libtool is a mytery to me |
| 21:46.51 | Links2004[Links] | howto use |
| 21:51.48 | L4m3r | fry's has a 500gb sata300 drive, 7200rpm, 16mb cache, $140 |
| 21:51.56 | L4m3r | no rebate... Maxtor :\ |
| 21:53.51 | JeffM2501 | sounds average |
| 21:54.13 | Links2004[Links] | pls |
| 21:54.26 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], we don'tknow what your saying |
| 21:54.38 | L4m3r | try grepping for it, links- I honestly have no idea |
| 21:54.41 | Links2004[Links] | howto becomm te so |
| 21:54.50 | JeffM2501 | what? |
| 21:55.17 | Links2004[Links] | i need the /home/make/bzflag/pluginsHoldTheFlag.so |
| 21:55.17 | Links2004[Links] | ääääää |
| 21:55.17 | Links2004[Links] | oooo |
| 21:55.18 | Links2004[Links] | so net |
| 21:55.35 | JeffM2501 | it should have made it, if it's not there, search |
| 21:55.36 | Links2004[Links] | i need the HoldTheFlag.so |
| 21:55.39 | JeffM2501 | we know |
| 21:56.07 | JeffM2501 | if it's not showing up you'll have to check your logs and see what it did |
| 21:56.15 | JeffM2501 | we are not makefile experts |
| 21:57.21 | Dessy | what you dont understand what links was saying? |
| 21:57.33 | Dessy | has saying i mean |
| 21:57.45 | JeffM2501 | <Links2004[Links]> howto becomm te so |
| 21:57.45 | JeffM2501 | that' |
| 21:57.54 | Dessy | ah |
| 21:58.13 | Dessy | what he must do to become the holdtheflag.so |
| 21:58.49 | Constitution | hackish solution: from the source directory, do: find . | grep -i holdtheflag.so |
| 21:59.10 | Thumper_ | find . -name 'holdtheflag.so' |
| 21:59.10 | Constitution | if the file exists, it should give you the path |
| 21:59.17 | JeffM2501 | he wants to be the library? |
| 21:59.25 | JeffM2501 | to change himself into it? |
| 21:59.31 | JeffM2501 | tht makes no sense |
| 21:59.34 | Constitution | lol |
| 21:59.38 | L4m3r | he's not a native speaker JeffM2501 |
| 21:59.40 | JeffM2501 | I've seen him do beter english then that |
| 21:59.44 | JeffM2501 | I know he isn't |
| 21:59.54 | JeffM2501 | that's why I asked for a repeat |
| 22:00.01 | Links2004[Links] | root@links-clan:/home/make/bzflag# find . | grep -i holdtheflag |
| 22:00.02 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag |
| 22:00.02 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/CVS |
| 22:00.02 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/CVS/Root |
| 22:00.02 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/CVS/Repository |
| 22:00.02 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/CVS/Entries |
| 22:00.04 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/CVS/Tag |
| 22:00.06 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/Makefile.in |
| 22:01.05 | JeffM2501 | dude |
| 22:01.05 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/CHANGELOG.txt |
| 22:01.05 | JeffM2501 | pastebin |
| 22:01.05 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/HoldTheFlag.cpp |
| 22:01.05 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/HoldTheFlag.def |
| 22:01.06 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/HoldTheFlag.sln |
| 22:01.06 | *** kick/#bzflag [Links2004[Links]!n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501] by JeffM2501 (JeffM2501) |
| 22:01.06 | JeffM2501 | good lord |
| 22:01.06 | JeffM2501 | there is language issues, and there is being hella anoying |
| 22:01.06 | *** join/#bzflag Links2004[Links] (n=Links200@88.134.210.139) |
| 22:01.06 | Links2004[Links] | ./plugins/HoldTheFlag/HoldTheFlag_la-HoldTheFlag.lo |
| 22:01.06 | *** join/#bzflag Dessy (n=Dessy@88.134.210.139) |
| 22:01.06 | Links2004[Links] | sory |
| 22:01.06 | JeffM2501 | please use some common sense. |
| 22:01.37 | Dessy | lol |
| 22:01.46 | Links2004[Links] | o |
| 22:03.31 | Links2004[Links] | i am a linux noob pls help me ... |
| 22:03.45 | JeffM2501 | we arn't here to teach you your OS |
| 22:03.51 | JeffM2501 | we've given you where we think it should be |
| 22:04.10 | JeffM2501 | if it's not there you just need to go figure out why. |
| 22:04.57 | JeffM2501 | or find somone with your distro who builds plugins. |
| 22:15.12 | *** join/#bzflag [darek] (n=[darek]@2.174.unknown.vectranet.pl) |
| 22:18.52 | blast007 | Bz_Win: it's the latest version of The World |
| 22:25.54 | *** join/#bzflag Grand (n=ccd248c3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 22:26.29 | *** join/#bzflag philbrick34 (n=ccd248c3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 22:29.27 | Gnurdux | Links2004[Links], on my linux system it gets put in .libs |
| 22:30.12 | Gnurdux | does this give any output: find | grep \\.so |
| 22:30.29 | Gnurdux | please do not paste it in the channel |
| 22:30.37 | Links2004[Links] | cab you kick dessy his pc is crashed... |
| 22:30.46 | Links2004[Links] | *can |
| 22:30.53 | ruskie | that won't change anything :) |
| 22:30.55 | ruskie | will still be online :) |
| 22:31.04 | ruskie | need to wait to timeout of ghost it... |
| 22:31.09 | Links2004[Links] | ugh |
| 22:31.11 | Links2004[Links] | ok |
| 22:31.18 | Gnurdux | Links2004[Links], does it give output? |
| 22:32.01 | Gnurdux | and Dessy can just ghost it by joining as another user annd typing: /msg NickServ ghost Dessy <password> |
| 22:32.02 | JeffM2501 | kicking him won't remove him from the server. |
| 22:32.03 | Links2004[Links] | Constitution help me |
| 22:32.10 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03darekdawidowski 07v2_0_cs_branch * 10bzflag/data/ (materials.hi.xml materials.lo.xml materials.mid.xml world): added mountains. |
| 22:32.12 | Constitution | okay |
| 22:32.16 | Gnurdux | Links2004[Links], hwat do you need help with |
| 22:32.19 | Gnurdux | <Gnurdux> does this give any output: find | grep \\.so |
| 22:32.29 | Gnurdux | type that in a terminal |
| 22:33.00 | *** join/#bzflag Dessy (n=Dessy@88.134.210.139) |
| 22:33.04 | Links2004[Links] | <Gnurdux> Constitution help me now i have a so |
| 22:33.05 | *** join/#bzflag hans (n=543af3d9@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 22:33.14 | Gnurdux | good |
| 22:33.18 | Gnurdux | then whats the problem |
| 22:33.25 | Dessy | yay i am back :) |
| 22:33.34 | Links2004[Links] | but the serv load it not |
| 22:33.47 | Dessy | The server dont load the plugin |
| 22:33.58 | Dessy | if i cap the red flag he dont write a score |
| 22:34.10 | JeffM2501 | does it give you any errors? |
| 22:34.29 | Dessy | no |
| 22:34.44 | JeffM2501 | how many -d do you have? |
| 22:34.52 | Dessy | wait |
| 22:35.03 | Dessy | -ddd |
| 22:35.10 | Dessy | to many? |
| 22:35.20 | Gnurdux | Dessy, do /listplugins |
| 22:35.30 | Gnurdux | does it show up |
| 22:35.31 | JeffM2501 | no that should be fine |
| 22:35.35 | Dessy | ok |
| 22:35.40 | Dessy | unkown comand |
| 22:35.58 | Dessy | *command |
| 22:36.00 | Gnurdux | the server doesnt support plugins |
| 22:36.03 | *** join/#bzflag mithro (n=tim@lester.mithis.com) |
| 22:36.04 | Dessy | uhm |
| 22:36.05 | Gnurdux | thats your friggen problem |
| 22:36.09 | Gnurdux | no wonder it doesnt work |
| 22:36.13 | Dessy | its the 2.0.9 |
| 22:36.17 | Links2004[Links] | CVS |
| 22:36.18 | Gnurdux | right |
| 22:36.24 | Gnurdux | its not compiled to support plugins |
| 22:36.32 | Gnurdux | you built from source? |
| 22:36.36 | Dessy | yes |
| 22:36.36 | Links2004[Links] | yes |
| 22:36.42 | Gnurdux | you need to pass --enable-shared to the ocnfigure line |
| 22:36.48 | Gnurdux | or it doesnt support plugins |
| 22:36.57 | Dessy | ok |
| 22:37.13 | Dessy | we try |
| 22:37.13 | Gnurdux | so youll have to rebuild it |
| 22:37.36 | Dessy | i love linux |
| 22:37.40 | Dessy | its so crazy |
| 22:37.41 | Links2004[Links] | :P |
| 22:37.43 | Constitution | so --enable-shared enables server support for plugins, and --enable-plugins enables compliation of plugins? |
| 22:38.13 | Dessy | i hope the KDE 4 will coming soon |
| 22:38.38 | Gnurdux | Constitution, plugin support for servers you mean |
| 22:38.38 | *** join/#bzflag trapdoor (n=mac@london.uk.whatnet.org) |
| 22:38.40 | Constitution | right |
| 22:38.43 | Gnurdux | i think all you need is enable-shared |
| 22:38.56 | Links2004[Links] | i make it ... |
| 22:41.17 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 22:42.48 | *** join/#bzflag triclops (n=triclops@203-217-47-13.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 22:51.45 | Colbertff | Hey guys, I am trying to apply for gsoc, but I have an idea thats pretty different from anything on your ideas list, so I want to make sure this would have any chance at all of making it. I'm thinking of porting bzflag to Java and putting it into an applet |
| 22:52.09 | JeffM2501 | why? |
| 22:52.28 | Colbertff | so people could play bzflag without having to install/download it |
| 22:52.31 | JeffM2501 | and you can do that in 2.5 months |
| 22:52.33 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 22:52.38 | Colbertff | I think so |
| 22:52.53 | JeffM2501 | you'd be rewiting the entire game |
| 22:52.59 | Links2004[Links] | thx it works :):) |
| 22:53.20 | JeffM2501 | downloading apps is a big issue? |
| 22:53.21 | Colbertff | Kind of |
| 22:53.36 | Colbertff | most of the code can be translated into java |
| 22:53.37 | JeffM2501 | and how slow would it be? |
| 22:53.47 | Colbertff | q2 was ported to java |
| 22:53.52 | JeffM2501 | and how maintaintable would it be |
| 22:53.56 | JeffM2501 | we'd have 2 souce trees then |
| 22:53.59 | JeffM2501 | 2 clients |
| 22:54.03 | Colbertff | true |
| 22:54.08 | JeffM2501 | we'd have to make changes to 2 places |
| 22:54.23 | JeffM2501 | just so somone could screw off in the school library and play |
| 22:54.39 | JeffM2501 | how many people use that q2 java version as a final real client? |
| 22:54.55 | JeffM2501 | and what limits would that put on our future graphical enhancemnts? |
| 22:55.15 | Colbertff | well it doesnt have to be a complete equal to the c version |
| 22:55.32 | JeffM2501 | so then it's a difrent game? |
| 22:55.33 | JeffM2501 | a subset? |
| 22:55.36 | Colbertff | the java q2 is almost the same performance wise as the ID quake |
| 22:55.49 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@dialin-79071.ewetel.net) |
| 22:55.50 | JeffM2501 | that wasn't my question ;) |
| 22:55.55 | JeffM2501 | how many people use it? |
| 22:56.06 | Colbertff | it was a response to how slow |
| 22:56.10 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 22:57.00 | Colbertff | well |
| 22:57.02 | Colbertff | i'm lookin at the sourceforge stats page |
| 22:57.43 | Colbertff | its been d/led 66,000 times, but thats including all versions |
| 22:58.05 | Colbertff | i'd say 8-10k for the latest version |
| 22:58.11 | JeffM2501 | if it has to be downloaded, how is it diferent from an app? |
| 22:58.50 | Colbertff | jake isnt an applet |
| 22:58.55 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 22:59.10 | Colbertff | thats not including their webstart version btw |
| 22:59.12 | JeffM2501 | well your welcome to submit whatever you wish |
| 22:59.22 | JeffM2501 | but my personal option on it is not high |
| 22:59.25 | Colbertff | k |
| 22:59.28 | JeffM2501 | there are many other things I'd rather see |
| 22:59.39 | JeffM2501 | as all it does is add complexity to our project |
| 22:59.45 | JeffM2501 | for little to no real benifit |
| 22:59.51 | Colbertff | completely understand |
| 23:00.01 | JeffM2501 | it'd require us to have a dev to maintin it in another language. |
| 23:00.02 | Colbertff | which is why i wanted to run it passed ya guys |
| 23:00.19 | JeffM2501 | others may feel difrent, but I'd doubt it |
| 23:00.22 | trapdoor | has anyone submitted a SoC proposal for a chat system yet? |
| 23:00.35 | JeffM2501 | does it have a * after it? |
| 23:00.42 | Colbertff | no |
| 23:00.50 | Colbertff | Cross server communications system? |
| 23:00.50 | JeffM2501 | then nope |
| 23:01.41 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r (i=l4m3r@about/essy/warning/L4m3r) |
| 23:01.41 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v L4m3r] by ChanServ |
| 23:03.02 | trapdoor | If I am interested in that and porting client to Ogre (obviously not able to do both, but willing to do either), can I submit applications for both? |
| 23:03.15 | JeffM2501 | yes you can |
| 23:03.29 | JeffM2501 | we are only allowd to rank one for you, but it does increase your chances. |
| 23:03.39 | trapdoor | ok then |
| 23:03.59 | JeffM2501 | as if there are more then one submision for one, and not for another, you got a shot at geting into the empty slot |
| 23:04.35 | CBG | Hmm, looks like there could be a bit of a battle for the GSoC in relation to bzflag - only one applicant can actually receive dough for their work, right? |
| 23:04.50 | JeffM2501 | CBG, no |
| 23:04.55 | JeffM2501 | we may get more then one slot |
| 23:04.59 | JeffM2501 | for more then one idea |
| 23:05.01 | CBG | Oh, cool. |
| 23:05.13 | JeffM2501 | only one person will get the job for a single idea |
| 23:05.21 | JeffM2501 | aka only one person will get the engine replacement one |
| 23:05.30 | JeffM2501 | but we may get 5-6 slots |
| 23:05.38 | JeffM2501 | so that means we can get 5-6 difrent ideas done |
| 23:08.11 | CBG | is 5/6 slots likely? |
| 23:08.21 | JeffM2501 | don't know |
| 23:08.28 | JeffM2501 | more then one is likely |
| 23:08.38 | JeffM2501 | depeends what google gives us |
| 23:08.39 | CBG | I mean, if you got 5 applicants, each for a different idea, and you accept them all - will google be happy to pay all those? |
| 23:08.48 | JeffM2501 | up to them |
| 23:08.55 | Colbertff | depends on how many slots google allots to bzfalg |
| 23:09.10 | JeffM2501 | they have a fixed amount of money allocted to the program |
| 23:09.16 | CBG | sure |
| 23:09.17 | JeffM2501 | they will spread it out over the orgs |
| 23:09.23 | JeffM2501 | some orgs get more then others |
| 23:09.24 | CBG | just curious, not intending applying |
| 23:09.44 | Dessy | I have started an HoldTheFlag Server |
| 23:09.53 | Dessy | Adress: gu.links-clan.net 5001 |
| 23:15.45 | *** join/#bzflag a_meteorite (n=a_meteor@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001) |
| 23:21.42 | *** join/#bzflag philbrick34 (n=ccd248c3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:33.47 | *** join/#bzflag Bluer_ (n=Bluer@124.82.60.107) |
| 23:34.23 | *** join/#bzflag retro (n=ksumrall@wall.danger.com) |
| 23:34.45 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 23:34.46 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 23:36.36 | CBG | sig 8 (yes, EIGHT) times longer than post: http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=104560#104560 |
| 23:36.58 | Bz_Win | ugh |
| 23:37.02 | Bz_Win | halo3 is a moron |
| 23:37.03 | a_meteorite | already reported |
| 23:37.07 | philbrick34 | hahah |
| 23:37.17 | philbrick34 | i agree BZ WIN |
| 23:37.17 | a_meteorite | I told blast, he said he would take care of it when off work |
| 23:44.31 | *** join/#bzflag bz05 (n=47b85147@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:45.09 | *** join/#bzflag trovao (n=trovao@201008102064.user.veloxzone.com.br) |
| 23:50.21 | *** join/#bzflag randomparticle (n=randompa@88-104-239-131.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 23:50.35 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03atupone 07v2_0_cs_branch * 10bzflag/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Wall is built from message by the server |