irclog2html for #bzflag on 20070313

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00:42.55donny_baker~DTRemenak++
00:43.25donny_bakerThanks for all the wiki pages (especially the Template:Delete) :)
00:44.26a_meteoritedonny_baker, that was TD-Linux ...
00:44.28tannerld~donny_baker++
00:46.28donny_bakera_meteorite: only if TD-Linux registered as DTRemenak... consult the 'Recent Changes' page 5 new pages and lots of edits
00:46.40a_meteoritedonny_baker: TD-Linux implied he did the Template:Delete
00:47.14a_meteoritehttp://my.bzflag.org/w/Nonsense
00:47.23a_meteoriteyeah, history says TD-Linux did it :P
00:47.57a_meteoritehttp://my.bzflag.org/wiki/index.php?title=Template:Delete&action=history
00:48.08a_meteorite;)
00:51.31donny_bakeri stand corrected :)
00:51.41donny_baker~TD-Linux++
00:52.21a_meteoritehey, don't I get karma for correcting an erroneous statement? :P
00:52.25a_meteoritehehe
00:53.13donny_baker~a_meteorite++
00:53.20a_meteorite:)
00:54.29DTRemenakhey, that was a donny_baker statement, not an erroneous statement ;)
00:54.44a_meteoriteheh
00:54.53donny_bakerlol :)
00:55.14DTRemenakand yeah, Template:Delete was TD-Linux'.  I modified it a bit and added the del redirect
00:55.32donny_bakeryep, i see that now, but you still did lots today
00:55.38DTRemenakyup, slow day
00:55.56JeffM2501man is this a good video
00:55.58DTRemenakfigured I might as well clean some stuff up
00:56.01DTRemenakoh?
00:56.03donny_bakeryou guys should be scared that I have been the spelling police
00:56.30JeffM2501' "patches welcome" is the open source way of saying "go screw yourself" '
00:56.37a_meteoritelol
00:56.44DTRemenakhehe
00:57.41JeffM2501' of your going to be kind you'd say "hey could you write a patch for that", if your annoied with the person you'l say "Pactches welcome", usualy in quotes'
00:58.56JeffM2501http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645
00:59.00JeffM2501it's like an hour long tho
00:59.01DTRemenaknot quite true; we have it down to an art.... "pw"
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02:06.07JeffM2501watching that video makes me want to ask those guys all kinds of stuff about open source comunities
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03:44.48shorty114JeffM2501, i think you have a typo in your part/quit message
03:44.52shorty114you'r should be you're ;)
04:17.10JeffM2501I have a what?
04:18.45blast007"If you'r going to be a driver, then drive a race car."
04:19.22JeffM2501oh
04:19.29JeffM2501it's a part message, not a disertation
04:19.52blast007JeffM2501: that's what they want you to think
04:20.07JeffM2501no.. I'm positive it is
04:20.21blast007it's the voices!
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05:54.53eTangenT~bz20cvs
05:54.55ibotcvs -d :pserver:anonymous@cvs.bzflag.org:/cvsroot/bzflag co -P -r v2_0branch bzflag
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06:00.59a_meteorite~seen daniel_jackson
06:01.22ibotdaniel_jackson <n=bsanford@cpe-66-74-198-10.san.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 3d 8m 16s ago, saying: 'well I'll let it rest for one night'.
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15:22.54ts#/window 5
15:22.56tsoops
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15:28.39brlcadts: it's prefectly fine
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15:33.08Manuts: faster is Esc 5 ;)
15:41.44tsheh..
15:43.17tsManu: Thanks for the hint
15:43.49tsbrlcad: I found a rather big problem..BZFlag with more than 200FPS is unplayable in 2.1
15:44.22tsTank can hardly be turned, it jumps incredibly high and bounces off the walls like crazy
15:45.46tsWe need physics less depending on framerate :/
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16:06.26ts~seen JeffM2501
16:06.50ibotjeffm2501 <n=jeffm@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 11h 46m 43s ago, saying: 'no.. I'm positive it is'.
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16:22.39blast007ts: yeah, it's really interesting at 1200FPS  ;)
16:23.41tsblast007: I'm not refering to 1200FPS. I am refering to 200FPS which can be achived by pretty much of all new machines
16:24.11tsmeaning big problems
16:24.49blast007yup
16:25.00blast007but even with 2.0.9 you bounce with a high FPS
16:25.12blast0072.1 just breaks completely with high FPS
16:25.48tsblast007: It needs a fix (probably whole LocalPlayer.cxx should be rewritten)
16:26.07TheRedBaronblast007: yup :)
16:26.18tsblast007: 2.0.x is playable with 200FPS..
16:26.27blast007it's playable with 1200 as well
16:26.32TheRedBaronblast007: at first I suspected my beverage at 1200fps :)
16:26.45blast007you just bounce like you're made of rubber
16:26.57blast007TheRedBaron: hehe
16:26.59tsblast007: It's _too_ playable for you but look at what others think
16:27.27blast007ts: actually I have to use the energy saver or else it's harder to play
16:27.31tsblast007: Would you think it is ok when someone else always drives and turns faster than your tank?
16:29.20tsblast007: Energy saver doesn't work good for some people
16:29.28tsSo we need a real solution
16:29.56TheRedBaronforce vsync if fps is over X
16:30.03TheRedBaron;)
16:30.19tsdepending on driver = bad
16:32.16blast007as someone had said before, for the cases of low FPS or where dt is high (stuff like taking screenshots) to run through multiple simulation cycles in smaller increments and skip the rendering until the simulation catches up
16:32.36blast007the other part is just making everything independent of the FPS
16:32.49blast007including networking
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16:33.45chickinhi all
16:34.10chickinhello?
16:34.28tsblast007: You forgot the other case with dt being really small
16:34.51tsbut that is both a not so good idea
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16:35.30chickinhey jeff
16:35.41menotumehello chickin
16:35.44JeffM2501hello
16:35.50chickinhey nenotume
16:35.56chickinmeno*
16:35.59tsJeffM2501: Hi
16:36.01menotume:)
16:36.11blast007ts: ah
16:36.18JeffM2501you should be a nanotume, then you could fit more in a space ;)
16:36.23JeffM2501sup ts
16:36.26menotumehehe
16:36.34tsJeffM2501: I found out 2.1 is unplayable with more than 200FPS
16:36.35chickinlol
16:36.45JeffM2501umm ok
16:36.56JeffM2501we shuld probably limit it to over 100 or so
16:37.01JeffM2501just let it sleep
16:37.08tsThe tank can not turn..jumps incredible high
16:37.08blast007heh..
16:37.11chickinyou have a server?
16:37.27JeffM2501so when the delta gets realy small our math breaks down?
16:37.33JeffM2501isn't there some minimum limit?
16:37.39JeffM2501is that what gets it?
16:37.45tsJeffM2501: Shouldn't it be fixed? :/
16:37.47JeffM2501where the min is a larger then the current
16:37.54blast007JeffM2501: in 2.0.9 it's playable with a high FPS, but you just bounce off objects
16:38.04JeffM2501then you do a bunch of larger updates?
16:38.15JeffM2501ts if you know the problem yes, we can fix it :)
16:38.20tsblast007, JeffM2501: Not really.
16:38.22JeffM2501is it that minimum limit?
16:38.25JeffM2501I have a feeling it is
16:38.40tsIt gets odd with 1000+FPS in 2.0.x
16:38.55tsbut in 2.1 it is unplayable already at 200FPS
16:38.56JeffM2501if the updat time is 0.0001 and our min limit is 0.001 then your doing a 10x multipler on all updates
16:39.07JeffM2501we shoudl just skip the update till it's over the min, not just do the min
16:39.16tsJeffM2501: I just saw it and I'm pretty shocked
16:39.34JeffM2501it's just a bug, no need to be shocked
16:39.39JeffM2501all we have to do is find it an fix it
16:39.46JeffM2501I'm beting it's a limit that is put in
16:39.54JeffM2501that is adding an artifical multiplier
16:40.01JeffM2501should be simple enough to fix
16:40.10JeffM2501probably should just move the limiter higher up in the loop
16:40.23JeffM2501so that the entire event loop just waits till it's at the limit, and dosn't force it.
16:41.05tsI'm rather wondering where the difference between 2.0.x and 2.1 comes from
16:41.12JeffM2501if you don't want to/don't have time to/can't track it down, I can.
16:41.26JeffM2501ts we did a lot of changes in 2.1, breaking up the updates into chunks
16:41.31JeffM2501adding some sanity checks
16:41.36JeffM2501one of those is just busted
16:41.44JeffM2501that's all
16:41.49JeffM2501it's a difrent code base, it has changes.
16:41.51tsJeffM2501: I know why the tank bounces off the walls and buildings
16:41.58tsIt's the easy part
16:41.59JeffM2501it's not like the code magicaly updated
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16:42.08JeffM2501ts but that's not the problem
16:42.19JeffM2501look at the problem at hand, not other versiosn your not working on.
16:42.30tsWell, there are 2 problems ;)
16:42.37JeffM2501they may be related
16:42.52JeffM2501I'm betting it's in my loop
16:43.31tsyes, I think so, too but can't find where the loop is
16:43.52JeffM2501just trackback the update functions
16:43.56JeffM2501see where they are called
16:44.16JeffM2501probably just need to change it over to us storing the time of the last real update
16:44.33JeffM2501then have the loop check to see if the current time is within the min distance
16:44.51JeffM2501if it is, do N min dist chunks till the timeslice left is less then the min distance
16:44.54tsMy IRC client runs on a different account than my dev tools and checkouts are ;)
16:45.01tsWell, at least it used to be
16:45.23JeffM2501then add that timeslice that is left on to the time we save for the last update, and let it build up again till it's over the min dist.
16:45.28JeffM2501so we don't loose any time.
16:45.37JeffM2501ts, su is a wonderfull thing ;)
16:46.25tsJeffM2501: Using irssi now but I have difficulty remembering the password for the box it runs on ;)
16:46.47JeffM2501tho I'd wonder if we just ditch the nub that is under the min, and assume 0, how far off we'll be
16:46.55JeffM2501we'd just recomp on the next update.
16:47.13JeffM2501don't we also have a min delta in the coldet stuff?
16:47.44tsI don't know the coldet stuff..
16:47.53JeffM2501never a better time to learn :)
16:48.08tsheh, I point to trepan instead ;)
16:48.11JeffM2501I think we do to the cast ray isn't close to 0
16:48.31JeffM2501dude, trepan ain't coming back, we can't hide from his code forever
16:48.44eTangenTwhat?
16:48.46JeffM2501if we keep doing that, then the project is as good as dead
16:48.49eTangenTwhere'd trepan go?
16:48.54JeffM2501another proejct
16:48.57JeffM2501taSpring
16:49.08tsNever heard of that
16:49.20tsDidn't know he's out
16:49.30JeffM2501when was the last time you saw him do anything?
16:50.11tsDon't remember
16:50.11JBdiGrizI've never "seen" him do anything.
16:50.13JeffM2501heh
16:50.23JeffM2501ok, seen the results of him doing something, hows that? ;)
16:50.29JeffM2501ts, he stoped long ago
16:50.40tsJeffM2501: oh :/
16:50.49tsJan 05 18:48:50 CIA-3BZFlag: jeffm2501 * bzflag/src/bzflag/ (BaseLocalPlayer.cxx playing.cxx playing.h): do the big dt updates in a chunked loop to prevent big dt spikes. A better fix would be to redo the updates to just handle big dt values
16:50.57tsThat was the dt loop
16:50.59JeffM2501that would be the loop there skip
16:51.42JeffM2501collison and rendering have a bus factor of -1 for bzflag right now :(
16:52.55blast007heh...had to google that
16:53.00blast007"That means if the developer who wrote it is hit by a bus, you're screwed."
16:53.36tsWhy is the factor -1?
16:56.17tsJeffM2501: I'm not seeing how the chunked loop would affect it.
16:58.25JeffM2501cus the person who knows about it, has basicly been hit by a bus
16:58.26JeffM2501he's gone
16:58.33JeffM2501so in effect, right now, we are screwed
16:58.42JeffM2501and in the process of dealing with it
16:59.00JeffM2501blast007, you shoudl watch the google Open source comunitiy video, it's good
17:02.29tsJeffM2501: I'm not feeling good with tinkering the loop that puts the dt values into little parts
17:05.07JeffM2501ok, then don't tinker
17:05.18JeffM2501report and log it, and we'll have to go fix it
17:05.29JeffM2501can't make you do anything you don't want to do :)
17:06.04JeffM2501I'll try to look into it later today
17:06.11JeffM2501have to do some regressions stuff here first
17:06.14JeffM2501then maybe go home sick
17:06.49tsAre you ill?
17:07.33JeffM2501feel like I'm geting there
17:07.45ts:/
17:08.31JeffM2501tis the season
17:08.50JeffM2501just means I put a movie on, get lots of fluids, and sit in bed with the laptop :)
17:09.12JeffM2501have to be well by saturday or I'm screwed
17:12.06tsI wish you good luck
17:12.09JeffM2501I also read a good artile on open source games, that realy sumarises and fleshes out some of the feelings I've had for it over the years.
17:12.11JeffM2501http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=8146
17:12.17JeffM2501even mentions us at the end :)
17:12.47JeffM2501tho I'm not so sure that now we are as good as he makes us out to be :)
17:12.55JeffM2501was done in 2004 when we were on a roll.
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17:30.42JeffM2501I think we are very lucky as a game to still be going on, and have a steady comunity
17:30.58JeffM2501but I think we could loose it right quick if we don't look out for pitfalls
17:35.24donny_bakerJeffM2501: nice article, thanks
17:36.08tsJeffM2501: I'm thinking we're already pretty much in danger if we can't get out 2.2 this year
17:36.51JeffM2501we've been in danger :)
17:37.05JeffM2501the bigest thing I got from the google video is that if you don't have a strong direction and a plan, new devs can't come in and get to work.
17:37.09JeffM2501that is our bigest problem
17:37.16JeffM2501we have no direction and scope
17:37.52JeffM2501the article goes to show that to keep player interst we may have to make some biger changes to keep things ineresting
17:38.10JeffM2501if there are people who don't like the changes, then they can stay on the older version
17:38.21JeffM2501just like people who don't like quake 3 play quake 1
17:38.21tsWell, a "roadmap" is usually made by the project maintainer and when he doesn't then there is no plan..
17:38.28JeffM2501exactly
17:38.35Erroneouswe do have a scope
17:38.46JeffM2501what is it?
17:38.48Erroneousjust not really any unified direction
17:39.02JeffM2501shoudl at least write down our scope somewhere :)
17:39.28Erroneousa scope is really just limitations..what you won't do.  BZFlag is an open-source tank game which is simple to learn and difficult to master.
17:39.35JeffM2501I liked the subversion peope's comment that there mission statement was on the main page for 4 years, and it helped keep them focused.
17:39.37Erroneousthat implies a lot of limitations
17:39.50JeffM2501yeah it's just not a clear statement
17:40.20Erroneouswe'd have a lot of scope problems if we wanted to do dudes on the field running around, or tilting turrets/parabolic shots, or any number of other things
17:40.32JeffM2501does get more complex
17:40.35Erroneousdirection is more of an issue
17:40.49JeffM2501so we have an area, we need a vector
17:40.50Erroneousscope says what you won't do, direction is supposed to define what you want to do
17:40.53JeffM2501we are a magnitude only :)
17:41.01Erroneousheh, more like a cone
17:41.09JeffM2501heh
17:41.30JeffM2501did you watch the video Erroneous? I think you'd find it interesting
17:41.33ErroneousI did
17:41.46JeffM2501indeed
17:42.00JeffM2501and " it's total bike shed"
17:42.02Erroneoustotally explains the concept in a nice simple way
17:42.12tsIf you define scope as what the individuals are wanting to do, then what guarantees that there are no conflicts?
17:42.42Erroneousheh, bikeshedding...I've been involved in enough bsdish projects to know about that at least.
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17:43.11JeffM2501I kinda wanted to open a discussion with those guys about our situation, but I didn't want it to maybe affect our SOC application :)
17:43.12tsreally, we get nowhere with no real target
17:43.21JeffM2501ts, yup
17:43.32ErroneousJeffM2501: they're a different team
17:43.37Erroneousas far as I know
17:43.39JeffM2501yeah I know
17:43.42JeffM2501but still
17:44.01JeffM2501be nice to just have dinner with them and get there opinons on our situation.
17:44.18JeffM2501as I feel they've seen a number of comunities.
17:44.19Erroneoustrue enough
17:44.20JeffM2501and may know what historicly has and hasn't worked.
17:44.26Erroneousaren't they in chicago though?
17:44.32tsJeffM2501: Look at the commits, I feel like 2.1 is already dead
17:44.33JeffM2501yeah
17:44.56Erroneousts: I have stuff I haven't committed.  Course they say that's bad too....
17:44.59JeffM2501ts, honestly you haven't been around THAT long, it goes up and down. 1.8 did a same thing.
17:45.03tshardly commits on it
17:45.08JeffM2501but we are more now then we were then.
17:45.23JeffM2501yeah it's not the same situation
17:45.25JeffM2501at all
17:45.35tsWhat is different?
17:45.35JeffM2501I'm just saying in levels of commits to "the current"
17:45.40Erroneousthere just nobody knew what was going on
17:45.42JeffM25011.8 got hit by a bus
17:45.46Erroneousheh
17:45.51JeffM2501but dev went down.
17:45.55JeffM2501then we had a meeting
17:45.56tsand 2.1 didn't?
17:45.59JeffM2501and made a choice
17:46.04JeffM2501and dev went up
17:46.05Erroneousnobody understood any of the new code except one person.
17:46.16JeffM2501no, 2.1 is a lack of direction and desire
17:46.23Erroneous2.1 is just kinda idling
17:46.23JeffM2501not that noone knows how bzdb works ;)
17:46.40Erroneoushey, it's a good black box, I don't need to know how it works :)
17:46.42tsErroneous: Ah, there is the diff. One has actually understood the code ;)
17:46.43JeffM25011.8 had a large number of things that only CRS knew
17:46.46JeffM2501and he stoped
17:46.52Erroneousand it didn't build
17:47.02JeffM2501more people understand bits of 2.1 then people did 1.8
17:47.03Erroneousand nobody could fix it
17:47.14JeffM2501I can't say there is any one person who knows all of BZ
17:47.31Erroneouswe do have some sections of code with very low bus factors though
17:47.34JeffM2501there are people who have a good handle on how it generaly works, and can work there way around any bit if they need to
17:47.37JeffM2501yes
17:47.49Erroneouseven 0 in some places
17:47.57JeffM2501bus factor is one reason why I push for others to work int he API, it's not my baby :)
17:48.18Erroneoushey, I understand the API.  I just don't like working on it :P
17:48.23JeffM2501I know
17:48.48JeffM2501some people are cool with it, others seem to feel the need to ask me to do any API call needed.
17:49.21Erroneousnot everybody needs to understand every part of the code
17:49.21JeffM2501indded
17:49.31Erroneousin fact, most projects, no single person understands every part of the code.  certainly true for bz.
17:49.52tsThey key is to have always at least one who understands a certain part of the code
17:49.53JeffM2501but a good developer should be willing and skilled enough to go in and make a change where he/she needs to, comunicating with others if need be, but they shoudl still be able to DO the code anywhere.
17:50.02Erroneousts: two
17:50.04Erroneousnot one
17:50.10Erroneousbus factor of one is dangerous
17:50.23JeffM2501ts, you have to assume that any one person can leave the project at any time.
17:50.29JeffM2501if they are the only person, then your screwed.
17:50.50Erroneouswhich is one reason bz's development model is dangerous.  we tend to solo big chunks of functionality (power plants :P ).
17:50.54JeffM2501ala, trepan for 2.1, and CRS for 1.8
17:51.08JeffM2501yeah
17:51.14tsErroneous: Well, with 1 only you know it gets forward but its risky. 2 is more savy
17:51.20JeffM2501some of our best features are the ones that were discussed and worked out in small chunks
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17:51.48JeffM2501rain was done in little chunks, and came out kinda neat
17:51.53JeffM2501permisions the same way
17:51.59Erroneoustrepan didn't leave us in nearly as bad a situation.  at least all his stuff actually builds and works, and besides, nobody understood coldet *anyway*
17:52.06JeffM2501indded
17:52.22JeffM2501tho there seems to be a general reluctance for others to "go in there"
17:52.30Erroneousit's scary!
17:52.36JeffM2501up to the point where a lot of that is looking at being replaces with other stuff
17:52.44JeffM2501it's just math
17:53.09JeffM2501Erroneous, I did find the section of the video about the founter very interesting
17:53.22Erroneousthe implementation is "just math", but the concepts are bigger than that
17:53.27JeffM2501yeah
17:53.39JeffM2501I'm not a fan how he did it
17:53.45JeffM2501but that could just be my way of thinking
17:54.02JeffM2501it comes down to the powerplant thing
17:54.06Erroneousyup
17:54.10JeffM2501he did his powerplant, droped it in and then was done.
17:54.33JeffM2501I'm trying to think what the bigest "chunk" thing I've done has been
17:54.38Erroneouswasn't big on discussion.  in his opinion it just wasted time and wrists.  in some ways, he was right.
17:54.39JeffM2501the API was incremental
17:54.59Erroneoustexture manager
17:55.08JeffM2501yeah, tho that was done for another project
17:55.11JeffM2501first
17:55.15Erroneousyeah
18:01.15JeffM2501I was also happy to see that others seem to have similar issues to us as well, enough so that there was a talk about it, makes me feel like we arn't just cocking it up, but it's just a tendency that can and will happen, that just has to be managed.
18:01.27*** join/#bzflag moriah (i=d8ada652@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-53eee29b2fffcfad)
18:01.28JeffM2501that means there are solutions, that have worked for toerhs.
18:01.49*** part/#bzflag moriah (i=d8ada652@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-53eee29b2fffcfad)
18:01.59JeffM2501I sent the video to gary, I think he'll find it intersting too.
18:02.09Erroneouslikely so
18:04.55JeffM2501I am curious if a consensus based comunity would work for a game
18:05.05JeffM2501I have a feeling that it would require more vots
18:05.23JeffM2501as you can't realy compromise on "how many hit points should the wraith have"
18:05.25Erroneousbzflag basically runs on consensus
18:05.29JeffM2501it all has to ballance
18:05.34JeffM2501yeah we posibly can
18:05.40JeffM2501dude to the nature of our gameplay
18:05.47JeffM2501I was thinking more in general
18:05.59JeffM2501when you are going for a less freeform game.
18:06.09JeffM2501due not dude :)
18:06.22JeffM2501whoot, got down to a 4.7 gig profile :)
18:06.24TimRikeryou mean consensus during development? or at run time?
18:06.33Erroneousbzflag is not entirely freeform you know
18:06.33JeffM2501development
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18:06.43JeffM2501not entirely, but moreso then a story driven game.
18:06.51TimRikerI wonder how projects like freeciv operate.
18:06.54Erroneoustrue
18:06.56JeffM2501as do I
18:07.19ErroneousJeffM2501: for story driven, probably the consensus you get is "lets put so-and-so in charge of the story" :)
18:07.22JeffM2501there are very few sucsessfull OS games it seems
18:07.29JeffM2501Erroneous, yeah probably
18:07.56Erroneousthere are a few though.  freeciv, wesnoth, us, tremulous, etc
18:08.02JeffM2501using doom3 as the example in that article was nice, for that you'd need at least one person, or a team who everyone agrees is the defacto "desingers"
18:08.47TimRikerand some OS games are single dev. like the tron ones, neverball, etc.
18:08.58JeffM2501there is defenatly a difrence in the goals and methodology between apps and games
18:09.08JeffM2501yeah, cube is like that as well
18:09.13brlcadts: I noticed the framerate problem a month ago or so, someone (tm) should look into the problem and fix it .. there have been a lot of changes to the physics, not sure who might have caused
18:09.16JeffM2501one core, maybe a couple buds that help.
18:09.22JeffM2501then a mod comunity around it.
18:09.32JeffM2501brlcad, I'm going to look into it later today
18:09.36JeffM2501I have an idea what it may be.
18:09.45JeffM2501we have a min cap in a couple places.
18:11.27tsbrlcad: I'm also having a "little" problem. I ripped out some collision detecting from World.cxx and I do not know where to put it in
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18:11.46JeffM2501TimRiker, we were discussing a video on open source project comunities I saw last night, you may find it interesting
18:12.02JeffM2501was a talk hosted by google, and a couple subversion devs
18:12.13JeffM2501http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645
18:12.37TimRikerI'll check it out later. thanx.
18:12.47JeffM2501has one of your favorite terms in it to :)
18:13.12Erroneoushehe
18:13.17TimRiker"patches welcome" ?
18:13.20JeffM2501yeah
18:13.23TimRiker:)
18:13.30JeffM2501I found that part funny
18:14.09tsbrlcad: That is the code in question: http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/393592
18:15.53JeffM2501ts I think that's too late
18:16.10tstoo late for what?
18:16.22JeffM2501the problem was introduced higher then that
18:16.53JeffM2501I'm about 85% sure I made the problem
18:18.01JeffM2501heh
18:18.14tsJeffM2501: Umm, that pastebin snipped doesn't have to do with the FPS bug
18:18.19JeffM2501oh, sorry then
18:18.21JeffM2501my bad
18:18.35tsIt's just conde we need at server side, too
18:18.44tscode*
18:18.57brlcadi "sorta" understand the API, just also don't like working on it  :)
18:19.15tsHrm, big lag effect when typing..
18:19.16JeffM2501yeah I know everyone hates the API, but people use it :)
18:19.51JeffM2501at least 2.1 is versioned, should have done that the first time.
18:19.54TheRedBaron~seen menotume
18:20.33ibotmenotume is currently on #bzflag (1h 59m 22s). Has said a total of 3 messages. Is idling for 1h 44m 7s, last said: 'hehe'.
18:20.34Erroneousts: really world and collision stuff should be handled in a separate library and linked to both bzfs and bzflag.  MAC and I planned to do that a long time ago, never really got around to it.
18:20.40tsErroneous: MAC == MACnus?
18:20.44JeffM2501no
18:20.45ErroneousMrApathyCream
18:20.50JeffM2501meBigFatGuy
18:20.51tsAh
18:20.59tsboth are the same :)
18:21.12JeffM2501MACnus is just some guy
18:21.39tsI know but I didn't think of MrApathyCream in the first moment
18:21.45brlcadJeffM2501: yeah, I noticed the replies to the framerate thing.. I woulda rescended my comment had I read in reverse ;)
18:21.52JeffM2501heh
18:22.01JeffM2501I'm prety sure I put a min limit in there
18:22.04JeffM2501and that's going to be wrong
18:22.08JeffM2501and act like a multiplier
18:22.11ts~x en de rescend
18:22.16JeffM2501take back
18:23.11brlcadJeffM2501: actually, I think the API is great
18:23.24JeffM2501I'm not happy with the first version
18:23.26brlcadeven if I don't like working on it (for entirely different reasons)
18:23.30JeffM2501I should have listend to the rest of you more
18:23.54Erroneousyeah, same here, I like that it's there, just don't like working on it.
18:23.55brlcadit's been the single biggest improvement to the game since 2.0
18:24.05JeffM2501what specificly don't you like about it?
18:24.09Erroneousgood thing you didn't, you never would have implemented it :P
18:24.16brlcadexactly
18:24.24Erroneouswe were all wrong when we said nobody would use it
18:24.28JeffM2501"perfection is the enimy of the good"
18:24.35brlcadand the kids love it, or at least "get it" enough to make some pretty useful mods
18:24.47JeffM2501yeah it lowers the barrier to entry
18:25.00JeffM2501and is somehwat similar to how you can do mods in quake and stuff
18:25.10tsNot only the kids but you can also do good things with it like to sync bans
18:25.25JeffM2501I do wonder how many real world plug-ins are run on windows
18:25.37JeffM2501I get the feeling that they are developed on windows, but mostly run on nix
18:26.37JeffM2501I'm just currious why others don't like extending it, is it the way I did it?
18:26.40brlcadto answer, i'm not sure I would have actually changed the API itself.. I just have trouble thinking about the other side, the backend to it
18:26.44tsJeffM2501: Simply look at the number of servers running Windows® - I guess there is little use of the plug-ins under Windows®
18:27.09JeffM2501ts, that is why I say I think most are run on nix
18:27.09brlcadi would have been entirely caught up with cleaning up the server first so that all api went through events or somesuch
18:27.19JeffM2501ahh
18:27.22brlcadinstead of getting injected throughout bzfs where you have the data
18:27.38Erroneousyeah, it just seems kinda haphazard
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18:27.49tsI noticed funny effects with plug-ins. Different -O settings of bzfs and plug-ins can cause segfaults in the plug-in
18:28.04JeffM2501well I'd never have goten it done if I rewrote bzfs :)
18:28.04ts(Or I code bad ;) )
18:28.04brlcadbut it definitely got the job done, and side-stepped the CS for the practical
18:28.10ErroneousJeffM2501: the perfect is the enemy of the good ;)
18:28.18brlcadyep
18:28.38JeffM2501in my mind, I'd like bzfs to use the API for all it's events, then bzfs is just a collection of installed events and callbacks :)
18:28.38tsErroneous: I thought the better is the enemy of the good :p
18:28.45tsSo it can always improve :)
18:28.46brlcadi couldn't have brought myself to do it, I'm glad you did/could ;)
18:28.56JeffM2501hey I'm all about 1/2assin it :)
18:29.01brlcadhehe
18:29.03Erroneoushehe
18:29.10JeffM25011/2ass is my middle name
18:29.13JeffM2501Jeff Halfass Myers
18:29.33Erroneousthat sounds like you had an accident :S
18:29.43JeffM2501I don't like to talk about it;
18:30.15brlcadts: turn on energy saver .. problem solved ;)
18:30.47brlcadthen we can just slap a label in our release notes saying "BZFlag is now environment friendly"
18:31.11tsbrlcad: : That is exactly the thing I would hate ;)
18:31.17JeffM2501brlcad, that's what I was thinking of doing, limiting the frame rate update to some big number.
18:31.35brlcadoh man, folks would try to stab you :)
18:32.17JeffM2501or at least only update the physcics when the delta is over some limit
18:32.18Erroneous120fps should be enough for anyone
18:32.25brlcadwould be amusing to just report some random high number and fluctuate it around a little, while leaving it at 100 or something :)
18:32.29Erroneousheh
18:34.05tsbrlcad: Did you see my diff?
18:34.07JeffM2501then we'd not take 100% of the CPU
18:34.11brlcadone nice thing about bz dev at least is that we actually don't have such poisonous people (imho)
18:34.29brlcadthere are a couple players, but even some of them have been done away with
18:34.52brlcadts: probably, what about it
18:34.59Erroneousyeah, haven't really run into a lot.  occasionally though (anyone remember "mikeeusa"?) :)
18:35.07JeffM2501yeah, we don't have anyone activly pushing us down with commit access.
18:35.16brlcadErroneous: he's not a dev, he was just an ass
18:35.26Erroneousbrlcad: he had a patch
18:35.33Erroneousand that's what they were talking about
18:35.35JeffM2501tho there was that guy with the patch that replaced rand
18:35.37JeffM2501"just cus"
18:35.38brlcadthey're talking about having devs or others actively involved
18:35.45tsbrlcad: This one http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/393592 about code we seem to be able to move out of World.cxx
18:35.55Erroneouswe did exactly what they were talking about...told him to leave
18:36.04Erroneousand it didn't affect us
18:36.24tsI replicated it in bzfsPlayerStateVerify.cxx to test wether it works
18:36.26brlcadi'm thinking more along the lines of like the troll in #c that used to cause problems
18:36.30Erroneousthey weren't just talking about "preexisting problem people" of whom we don't have any
18:36.31brlcad(and maybe still does)
18:36.38tsbut what to do with it?
18:37.35Erroneousbrlcad: remember that they said they only had to remove commit access for one person.  the people they are talking about are generally not project members.
18:37.57JeffM2501just people who suck time away from development
18:38.03brlcadts: well.. you say you moved it, you tested it.. verfied that it seems to work .. if you really did that properly, then sounds good to move it ;)
18:38.38brlcadErroneous: yeah, but still "active community members"
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18:38.46tsbrlcad: Yeah but I don't know _where_ to move it. Obviously both server and client need it...so /game but what file?
18:39.01brlcadlike how CBG can go on a tirade from time to time when he's in a bad mood badgering users *ahem* :)
18:39.26Erroneousbrlcad: active meaning what?  a lot of their anecdotes were "this one time, this dude came on our mailing lists and..."
18:39.46JeffM2501we do get the "you should change the way you do things cus your way sucks a lot" thing
18:39.52Erroneousheh
18:39.52JeffM2501titlting tanks
18:39.54brlcadErroneous: ah, I glossed over those parts as just "yeah, some people are asses"
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18:40.17Erroneousbrlcad: that was most of what they were talking about though.  how do you deal with asses efficiently.
18:40.54Erroneousthey did spend some time on "what if he's actually contributing" and so on
18:41.09JeffM2501mostly I got "don't be afraid to say 'see ya'" from it.
18:41.27JeffM2501just don't do that right off the bat
18:41.39Erroneousdon't be too hasty to do that though, either.  part of what he was saying is that sometimes asses aren't really.
18:41.56JeffM2501I did like the list of things to watch out for
18:42.01Erroneousor maybe they are, but they have valid points
18:42.07JeffM2501when I saw that, I was thinking "oh yeah seen those"
18:42.10Erroneousyeah, they had it nicely organized
18:42.17JeffM2501all caps
18:42.20JeffM2501stupid names
18:44.06brlcadinteresting how their talk coincides right along with all of the recent banter that's been going on regarding gentoo's management and recent massive disputes
18:44.32JeffM2501IIRC the talk was in january
18:45.06brlcadyeah, gentoo's has been going on for months too
18:45.13CBGbrlcad: what?
18:45.14brlcadprobably just coincidental
18:45.24CBGwhen have I EVER BEEN IN A BAD MOOD?!?!?! >:(
18:45.32CBG(joke :P )
18:45.36brlcadCBG: you? never
18:46.44CBGI was in a foul mood today, had to scan some photos on windows - shouldda taken 30 mins... took over 2 hours.
18:47.07CBGIt was probabaly my fault for expecting things to actually _work_. How silly of me.
18:47.12CBGprobably*
18:47.34JeffM2501http://blue.bikeshed.com
18:47.57tsbrlcad: Hrm, it reminds me on myself
18:48.49CBGas for my "tirade from time to time", brlcad, you're referring to the bb or here?
18:48.57brlcadCBG: here
18:48.59ErroneousJeffM2501: hmm...interesting...that's the first one I tried when they said that too...
18:49.06CBGI consider myself to be fighting an on-going battle on the bb. :P
18:49.12CBGHere, I just feed the trolls.
18:49.19JeffM2501humans like words that start with the same letter I think
18:49.27JeffM2501blue bikeshed works as a pair
18:49.41brlcadCBG: you badger the newbies from time to time too, a bit of elitism in your tone
18:49.54brlcadat least my take
18:49.59brlcadand it's not always
18:50.04JeffM2501posts that dont' give any real info, and seem to be meant just to inflame.
18:50.04CBGonly a bit? I'm the first to admit, I'm not a very nice person.
18:50.41JeffM2501your not the worst troll feeder tho
18:50.46JeffM2501others are much worse
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18:51.00brlcadyeah
18:51.17CBGI'm proud that I caused certain members of the bb to "retire" - that's the kinda horrible guy I am.
18:51.26JeffM2501everyone can be somewhat of an ass
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18:51.50JeffM2501I know I'm not that nice to some noobs, when they set of some sort of munchkin radar in my head
18:51.52CBGBut I got a pretty full trophy cabinet.
18:51.57JeffM2501when I should give them the benifit of the doubt.
18:52.25JeffM2501unless you use LOL more then once every 15 min
18:52.31gsneddersLOL
18:52.36gsneddersLOL
18:52.39gsnedderssod.
18:52.46*** kick/#bzflag [gsnedders!n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501] by JeffM2501 (JeffM2501)
18:52.55*** join/#bzflag gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
18:52.58JeffM2501:)
18:53.05gsnedders:)
18:53.53JeffM2501I'd like to think I have a good track record of picking out the munchkins, but realy I know I've been wrong more then once, and that's not good :(
18:54.21gsneddersI'm not a munchkins! You got it all wrong!
18:54.30ErroneousJeffM2501: you pretty good at the "bad cop" thing
18:54.34JeffM2501heh
18:54.42Erroneouss/you/you are/
18:54.54JeffM2501depends what mood I'm in
18:55.06JeffM2501I can do the helpfull thing too
18:55.12JeffM2501if the person is willing to be rasonable
18:55.13Erroneousfortunately we have brlcad around to be the "good cop" and give people the benefit of the doubt :)
18:55.50Erroneousbut sometimes, SOMEONE has to push the ban button
19:00.22JeffM2501I was trying to figure out what our version of there mailing lists are
19:00.25JeffM2501and it has to be IRC
19:00.32JeffM2501tho for our users, the fourms are it
19:00.52Erroneousyeah, we're pretty irc-centric
19:01.08Erroneouswe log our irc channel, to form the equivalent of their ML archives
19:01.14JeffM2501dosn't make it easy to have someone search the archives then
19:01.21JeffM2501as it's often full of chatter
19:01.32Erroneousit's all timestamped
19:01.45JeffM2501I like the idea of after we discuss something, someone type it out and send it to a mailing list for further discussion
19:01.50CBGhttp://blue.bikeshed.com won't load for me - is that what you're talking about?
19:01.54JeffM2501or at least saying "we are going in this direction"
19:02.01JeffM2501CBG, no
19:02.02JeffM2501a video
19:02.09CBGahh, I see
19:02.18Erroneouswe also aren't as afraid to repeat ourselves as they seem to be
19:02.19JeffM2501on open source comunities
19:02.24tsJeffM2501: BTW: I think we have names in the .po files ;)
19:02.26Erroneousrevisiting issues can be valuable
19:02.35JeffM2501ts, what is a .po file?
19:02.41Erroneousts: not everyone is anal about names
19:02.44tsThe "l10n"
19:02.49JeffM2501ahh
19:02.50Erroneousthe svn folks are, but whatever
19:03.08JeffM2501I like the idea, but it's minimal
19:03.19JeffM2501total bikeshed
19:03.25Erroneoustotal bikeshed indeed
19:03.40JeffM2501I'd not be adverse to it being part of our standards, but only if we took the time to review them
19:03.48JeffM2501I love what the one vote was for too
19:03.50JeffM2501tabs
19:03.53Erroneoushehe
19:03.58JeffM2501everyone has an opion on freaking tabs
19:04.11Erroneousfunny, that's one of the things our BD has stepped in on too :)
19:04.19JeffM2501bd?
19:04.28Erroneousbenevalent dictator
19:04.31JeffM2501ahh
19:04.31JeffM2501yeah
19:04.51*** kick/#bzflag [Erroneous!n=sean@pdpc/supporter/silver/brlcad] by brlcad (troll!)
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19:05.03tshehe
19:05.12brlcadtee hee
19:05.16Erroneousexcept that I can't ever remember how to spell benevolent
19:05.36gsneddersmaybe not wise to say that
19:07.06*** mode/#bzflag [+o Erroneous] by ChanServ
19:07.08*** kick/#bzflag [brlcad!n=dtremena@about/essy/CrazyCoder/DTRemenak] by Erroneous ("hey, HE'S suppoosed to be the bad cop")
19:07.20*** mode/#bzflag [-o Erroneous] by Erroneous
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19:07.28brlcad:)
19:07.51tsbrlcad: Realtime helps but it's bad when there are no logs and absent people aren't notified of discussions
19:08.19Erroneouswe do have logs
19:08.21brlcadts: no logs?  there are logs
19:08.35brlcadand even if there weren't logs, you certainly could log
19:08.35JeffM2501totaly have logs
19:08.35tsbrlcad: yes, in the bz case
19:08.45Erroneousand "absent people" is usually most people, and if we think someone should be notified, we do
19:08.54JeffM2501I still think it'd be a good idea after a discussion to write it up and send it out
19:09.02JeffM2501that way it's also clear what the result of the discussion was
19:09.19tstrue..
19:09.27Erroneousbetter than sending it out, wikify it
19:09.32JeffM2501ether way
19:09.33JeffM2501yes
19:10.06Erroneousfor design decisions, wiki is actually an excellent format...consensus goes on articles, discussion on the corresponding talk pages
19:10.18JeffM2501indeed
19:10.26Erroneouspeople who are interested can watch articles, people who are not aren't bothered by it
19:10.35JeffM2501can you watch a group?
19:10.40JeffM2501or category?
19:10.45ErroneousI don't think so
19:10.50JeffM2501be nice if you could
19:10.58Erroneousyou can watch a category, but I think it just notifies you on additions to the category
19:10.59JeffM2501then we could have a cat just for "in development"
19:11.05JeffM2501ahh
19:11.50Erroneouswhich is not too bad actually, if each design segment is added as a new article.  watch the category, when something is added that you're interested in, watch the article
19:12.08JeffM2501yeah
19:12.29JeffM2501then once it becomes a real feature, we can move it to the final sections and it becomes the docs :)
19:13.24Erroneousyup
19:13.27Erroneousexactly
19:22.10blast007wowzers, lots to read
19:22.24blast007go go gadget, speed reading
19:22.26Erroneousblast007: makes more sense if you've seen the video
19:22.32blast007:)
19:22.37blast007suppose
19:29.29ErroneousTheRedBaron: that statement is nearly universally true.
19:31.01TheRedBarontrue
19:31.18TheRedBaronbut this is one small desk :)
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20:25.47tupone_laptopnice texture, but you could do a lot better :)
20:26.08JeffM2501me?
20:26.14tupone_laptopyep
20:26.23JeffM2501oh I was just reusing what we had
20:26.40JeffM2501so you can see the diff between the ground and walls and sky :)
20:28.30tupone_laptopSomething I have read that could be done,  but did not tried, is to make a skybox, use the priority "sky", that is to render before near anything
20:28.45JeffM2501yeah I looked at that a bit
20:29.07tupone_laptopuse ZFILL to set the zbuffer associated with that thing-mesh
20:29.34tupone_laptopuse some variable that say put the object just around the camera
20:29.54tupone_laptopand maybe use a plugin called sky that is a proc texture
20:30.19JeffM2501I didn't spend that long on it
20:30.30tupone_laptopcrystal space does not reset the zbuffer, unless instructed, and I did not
20:31.07tupone_laptoptoday I have to prepare my lesson for tomorrow, so I cannot spent any time on that :(
20:31.34JeffM2501intersting
20:32.21tupone_laptopand then maybe we can remove the top of the actual box
20:33.57JeffM2501I was trying to look at the API
20:34.00JeffM2501and see how it worked
20:34.03*** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux)
20:34.07JeffM2501lots of external files it seems
20:34.48JeffM2501man are laptop keyboards small
20:38.51TD-LinuxI see the wiki staff is efficient :)
20:39.55*** join/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@www.online4sale.de)
20:40.10brad~bzflist
20:40.17LongDonhi brad
20:40.22bradhi LongDon :)
20:40.47LongDonbaby is sleeping soon, so i will have time to play
20:41.02bradwe cant play because global is down (:
20:41.07bradwe were about to match
20:41.07LongDongreat
20:41.38LongDonI should talk to the devs and advise to add a backup login server
20:41.42Erroneousit's the grease
20:42.05JeffM2501LongDon, we want one, want to work on the code on how to make all the clients and servers use it? :)
20:42.18JeffM2501and to keep them in sync and do the logins
20:42.37JeffM2501Erroneous, must be
20:42.42JeffM2501I crave it when I start to get sick
20:42.46JeffM2501i'ts wierd
20:42.46Erroneousyup
20:42.50brlcadoop, hmm
20:42.53LongDonI can put the database on my server. Thats no problem. I can setup the services needed. No problem. I shall code: Thats the problem
20:43.16JeffM2501the issue is, it's more then just the server, or the sricves
20:43.25JeffM2501it's the design and how to make it all worth together
20:43.38JeffM2501transperantly to the end users and servers
20:43.40LongDons/worth/wrk
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20:43.51JeffM2501we'd have to get everything to sync in real time
20:43.55JeffM2501it's more like a distributed system
20:44.11brlcad~bzflist
20:44.13JeffM2501brlcad, DTRemenak, and blast007 have all had discussions on it
20:44.14LongDonThats no problem. I use that at my customers.
20:44.39LongDon"simple" replication
20:44.45JeffM2501LongDon, then you may want to talk to them about what we can do on a server backend to help resolve the issues
20:44.53JeffM2501last I heard, ldap was also beeing looked at
20:45.01JeffM2501your experience would be welcome
20:45.13LongDonldap is easy to replicate. Better than mysql
20:45.17JeffM2501yeah
20:45.21LongDonTo whom should i talk to?
20:45.27Erroneousbrlcad and blast007
20:45.30JeffM2501brlcad,  and blast
20:45.31JeffM2501yeah
20:45.36JeffM2501they were leading it last time
20:45.57JeffM2501brlcad is the owner of the current list, and blast has a lot of experience with the fourms/userdb
20:46.14LongDonI have much experience with backends
20:46.24LongDonAnd with replication of mysql and ldap
20:46.28JeffM2501aww crap, I didn't instal directX I think
20:46.34JeffM2501LongDon, cool
20:46.39LongDonSo we should work together.
20:46.57brlcadLongDon: are you a student? :)
20:47.05LongDonPartially ;)
20:47.09*** join/#bzflag lodxcol (n=lodxcol@unaffiliated/lodxcol)
20:47.16brlcadeligible for GSoC? :)
20:47.17JeffM2501awww, double crap, this is the CS branch :(
20:47.27LongDonSelf-Employed since 1999 and studying sine 1999
20:47.51LongDonHave to look up that words ;)
20:47.59brlcadLongDon: we've had *lots* of discussions about what to do about the list server
20:48.06brlcadand there's even a mild plan under way
20:48.15JeffM2501see, I wasn't being bad cop there :)
20:48.23JeffM2501and I didn't have to say patches welcome :)
20:48.24brlcadhmm.. where'd fiber go.. even his initial diagrams were useful
20:48.30brlcadheh
20:48.43LongDonI would be happy to help
20:48.51brlcadwe could be happy if you helped
20:48.58LongDoneven if my english is not very good
20:49.17brlcadwhat does english have to do with it? :)
20:49.18LongDonWhats GSoC`
20:49.19LongDon?
20:49.21Erroneousgood english is not a requirement :)
20:49.24brlcad~gsoc
20:49.34ibotmethinks gsoc is the Google Summer of Code, a program run annually by Google to provide (paid for) jobs to students to code on open source projects over summer.  See http://code.google.com/soc/ for details.
20:49.35LongDoncommunication is needed ;)
20:49.42Erroneouscommunication can get by with broken english :)
20:49.58LongDonhehe Erroneous
20:50.11LongDonbrlcad: about gsoc: dont know ;)
20:50.33Erroneouswe'll welcome your help in any case, SoC is just a chance to get paid for helping us ;)
20:50.42brlcadLongDon: very basic high-level summary at http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code
20:50.48JeffM2501brlcad, did we get approved?
20:50.49brlcadsee the "Global Authentication Daemon"
20:50.56brlcadJeffM2501: won't know till tomorrow
20:50.59JeffM2501k
20:51.12brlcadeither way, that's a useful task list :)
20:51.29LongDonIs there a mailing list where you discuss things?
20:51.36brlcadwe discuss things here
20:51.44brlcadand on the wiki
20:51.53Erroneousbzflag-dev@users.sf.net can be used, but generally here and the wiki gets more exposure and response
20:51.56brlcadand ever so rarely on the wiki
20:52.01JeffM2501the not sucky wiki
20:52.01Erroneouslists.sf.net
20:52.03Erroneousoops
20:52.09brlcads/the wiki/the bb/
20:52.27brlcadhmm.. not the regex I wanted, but whatever
20:52.38LongDonThat page needs some time to load here...
20:53.03brlcadcomes up instant here
20:53.04Erroneousk, lemme rephrase all that... IRC is the primary medium for dev communication, followed by the wiki, followed by the bzflag-dev list, and then the bb
20:53.11JeffM2501ts, so how fast of a frame rate did I have to get?
20:53.17brlcadthere, yeah.. what he said :)
20:53.18Erroneousjust in case all of our errors were confusing
20:53.20LongDonok
20:53.31Erroneouserr, points
20:53.32brlcadJeffM2501: I noticed it at around 170 things start going nuts
20:53.37JeffM2501k
20:53.42brlcadabove 200 and it all halts to hell
20:53.44JeffM2501hope I can get that high on this laptop
20:53.50Erroneous320x200 ftw
20:54.03JeffM2501dude, you don't know what laptop I have
20:54.09JeffM2501the compaq one
20:54.14brlcad~ftw
20:54.16ibotftw is, like, wtf backwards, or for the win
20:54.21Erroneousfor the win
20:54.38LongDonBTW: I cant code C nor C++ ;)
20:54.43brlcadeek
20:54.46Erroneoususually used sarcastically
20:54.46LongDon;)
20:54.50brlcadwhat can you do? :)
20:55.01LongDonWork on infrastructure
20:55.10brlcadknow how to set up slapd?
20:55.14JeffM2501if you can at least come up with the design, and the backend, as well as what the front end has to do, then codingup the C part is not hard
20:55.18LongDonsure.
20:55.28JeffM2501if we have a spec then it's cake for another dev to do the client and server work
20:55.49Erroneousheck, if you have a spec, it's not that hard to learn the language
20:55.52JeffM2501if you can tell me what to send and what I'm geting back I can do the C stuff
20:56.02brlcadyou could set up ldap, tie bzbb and wiki to it unifying the login for starters
20:56.35LongDonare there ldap connectors for bzbb?
20:56.37brlcadmigrating user and group data from phpbb into ldap,
20:56.40brlcadyep
20:56.56JeffM2501no there arn't
20:56.57JeffM2501not yet
20:56.58brlcadwell, phpbb supports ldap.. nothing that does the mapping is set up
20:57.08JeffM2501it suports it in phpbb3
20:57.11JeffM2501not 2.x
20:57.13JeffM2501we are on 2
20:57.18JeffM2501IIRC what blast was saying
20:57.20brlcadwe are?
20:57.22JeffM2501yeah
20:57.26JeffM25013 isn't out yet
20:57.27Erroneousalso need to move the weblogin page over, as it uses phpbb's db now
20:57.31JeffM2501there isn't an upgrade
20:57.38JeffM2501not till it's released
20:58.00LongDonWill take a look at connecting phpbb to ldap. Shall phpbbv2 be used or can be switched to newer versions?
20:58.05brlcadheh, that'll be a while... http://www.phpbb.com/
20:58.13JeffM2501phpbb3 is in beta 5 right now
20:58.15JeffM2501it's sf hosted
20:58.19JeffM2501so dev hosting isn't donw
20:58.20JeffM2501down
20:58.37brlcadLongDon: we can use whatever it takes
20:58.49Erroneousor http://sourceforge.net/projects/ldapauthmod/
20:58.52brlcadwe just need a bb that works, and (at least eventually) hook it in
20:59.05JeffM2501yeah, we arn't even tied to phpbb
20:59.16JeffM2501it was just used cus it was there when the time for logins was at hand
20:59.17brlcadideally even retaining all existing user accounts
20:59.21JeffM2501yes
20:59.26JeffM2501that is prety much a requirement
20:59.41JeffM2501if we have to reod accounts there will be some hell to pay on a comunity standpoint
20:59.44LongDonCan be done by a selfwritten script
20:59.46JeffM2501as people will try to gank names
20:59.47brlcadkeeping the names will be easy.. the tricky part will be migrating passwords
20:59.51Erroneousyeah, it can be scripted
21:00.12TheRedBaronwhat about usernames assigned to old e-mails?
21:00.27TheRedBaronie the e-mail accounts have been del
21:00.30JeffM2501we have no way of knowing that
21:00.47JeffM2501but I'd be ok with ditching people that bounce
21:00.50JeffM2501to clean house
21:01.25LongDonMoving passwords must not be a problem. If they are md5 stored they can be moved easily
21:01.28LongDoninto ldap
21:02.39LongDonI wont send emails and wait for bounces. Just write a small perl script which connects to the smtp and asks for the email address
21:02.49JeffM2501whatever works :)
21:02.59LongDonIf not valid delete the account ;
21:03.02JeffM2501tho we can't lose legit users
21:03.23Erroneouswhat's wrong with leaving those with invalid emails?
21:03.33JeffM2501the userdb is probably the most important bit of data for the comunity next tot he source.
21:03.46JeffM2501Erroneous, the only reason would be to clear up some names.
21:03.51JeffM2501that others may want
21:04.00Erroneousthat would not be good
21:04.17brlcadyeah, i'd just leave them in for now
21:04.18JeffM2501you think playing users are there with invalids?
21:04.18Erroneousthere are well-known players who do not play any more, and you'd be setting them up for impersonation
21:04.25JeffM2501fair enough
21:04.34ErroneousI mean really, how many trolls would jump at the chance to register kernel_panic? :)
21:04.43JeffM2501indeed
21:04.44TheRedBaronhe still plays :)
21:04.47JeffM2501or patlabor221 ;)
21:04.47brlcadthen after everything is migrated, we could start a timer or some recovery protocol to expire unused names
21:05.07TimRikershould track last time a user was "seen" and implement an expiry policy at some point. no big hurry though as far as I'm concerned.
21:05.22TimRikerwho is patlabor221?
21:05.32brlcadsome girl that used to play iirc
21:05.35JeffM2501some idiot
21:05.37brlcadhottie
21:05.51TheRedBaronbrlcad: pictures?
21:05.54brlcadkinda animeish
21:06.17JeffM2501giant robots man... didn't you take anime 101 in school ;)
21:06.25*** join/#bzflag devilgirl (n=473ce153@bz.bzflag.bz)
21:06.30JeffM2501kids these days
21:06.32TheRedBaronspeak of the devil?
21:06.39devilgirlwat?
21:06.39TimRikerhehe
21:07.11devilgirlhow do u make a server?
21:07.32TimRikerhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Patlaborthemovie2006edit.png
21:07.38devilgirlthx
21:07.41devilgirlbibi
21:07.46brlcadheh
21:07.55JeffM2501good movie
21:07.59JeffM2501very good movie
21:08.08TheRedBaronodd
21:08.08*** join/#bzflag devilgirl (n=473ce153@bz.bzflag.bz)
21:08.18TheRedBaronthe pic loaded and then disappeared
21:08.22devilgirlthat wasnt helpful
21:08.31TheRedBaronlmao
21:08.32brlcadthat and other great hits like "how do u write a kernel" can be yours for the low low price of 19.95
21:08.41JeffM2501if you like detective type stories then the patlabor movies are great
21:08.56brlcaddevilgirl: that wasn't meant for you ;)
21:09.02brlcadthere are other discussions that go on in here
21:09.08devilgirlnvm
21:09.09TimRiker~change 19.95 usd to eur
21:09.31devilgirlit waz a funny pic though
21:09.41TimRikerdevilgirl: heh.
21:10.37TimRikerhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/node/9453/print
21:11.25TimRikeraw.. too late.
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21:12.21JeffM2501hmm can only get 100 fps at 640
21:14.28CBGwow, nice article.
21:15.26CBGSo, GSoC is a program where Google give money to students that help opensource projects ?
21:16.53TimRikerCBG: it's a chapter from the book. I reviewed it just before it was published.
21:17.23brlcadCBG: pretty much
21:17.50CBGTimRiker: cool - brlcad: cool also
21:17.53tupone_laptopJeffM2501, if you get 100 fps with bzflag-cs, maybe is better you consider that for now fonts are bitmap, hence not so speedy
21:18.01JeffM2501not cs
21:18.05JeffM25012.1
21:18.10tupone_laptopahh
21:18.14brlcadfor them, it's a massive marketing/PR exposure, lots of benefits
21:18.48tupone_laptopactually I get 550 FPS for a massive game, while displaying nothing except black boxes
21:18.55tupone_laptop:)
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21:21.29ErroneousJeffM2501: run at 320x
21:21.38TD-Linuxhttp://my.bzflag.org/w/Template:Inaccurate
21:22.00Erroneouswe just throw the low res' out on windows, comment out that code
21:22.04JeffM2501i am
21:22.23Erroneous~TD-Linux++
21:22.32JeffM2501max at 111
21:23.14ErroneousTD-Linux: I do love your new templates though, they're very bzflag-style
21:23.50TD-Linux:)
21:24.00TD-Linuxthe screenshots are from romfis's page, not my own
21:24.09JeffM2501have 2 go to desktop
21:26.52TD-LinuxI need a screenshot that is very obviously an old version of bzflag... at 100x62
21:27.33ErroneousI think we still do object occlusion even in wireframe
21:27.44JeffM2501this 9200 just dosn't have the fill rate
21:27.52JeffM2501man the bed is comfy too :(
21:27.58ErroneousJeffM2501: you did disable vsync, right?
21:28.01JeffM2501yeah
21:28.07Erroneousk, just makin' sure :)
21:28.12JeffM2501gets up to like 125 max
21:28.14JeffM2501320
21:28.18JeffM2501no textures
21:28.23JeffM2501as litle text as possible
21:28.28JeffM2501big radar, big fonts
21:28.31brlcad~TD-Linux++
21:28.33ErroneousTD-Linux: enabling debug and turning on depth-shading is CERTAINLY cheating thouhg
21:28.45JeffM2501I am in a debug build
21:28.50JeffM2501<PROTECTED>
21:28.51donny_bakerTD-Linux: any ideas on a graphic for Template:Stub?
21:29.04JeffM2501I could hack out the clock
21:29.11JeffM2501to make it give back the fixed interval
21:29.16Erroneousdonny_baker: http://my.bzflag.org/w/Template_talk:Stub
21:29.45brlcadI suggest an empty field .. high from above
21:31.12Erroneousthat'd be good too
21:31.12*** join/#bzflag calidore (i=thor@BSN-95-245-229.dsl.siol.net)
21:31.12brlcadmaybe put a few little boxes in the middle or something
21:31.13brlcadbut mostly empty
21:31.13JeffM2501wonder if disabling some of the text will do it
21:31.13brlcadmake the radar bigger
21:31.13brlcadand non-trasparent
21:31.13JeffM2501biger?
21:31.13Erroneousdisable the radar
21:31.13JeffM2501did the non trans
21:31.13JeffM2501how do you disable radar?
21:31.13Erroneousw?
21:31.13Erroneousq?
21:31.13brlcadq?
21:31.14Erroneousone of those
21:31.14JeffM2501I could turn the entire hud off :)
21:31.34JeffM2501k
21:31.34Erroneousw is console probably
21:31.35brlcadis it fonts slowing it down?
21:31.37brlcadmy framerate goes up with a bigger console
21:31.45Erroneousdepends what world
21:31.55Erroneousfonts are not as slow as they once were, either
21:32.48JeffM2501there we go
21:32.52JeffM2501145
21:32.57JeffM2501and I jumped too high
21:33.12JeffM2501told ya this laptop sucked
21:34.54tsJeffM2501: Why do you even ask? You should play a bit more :)
21:35.05JeffM2501why?
21:35.27tsIt's fun :)
21:35.38JeffM2501not for me
21:35.43tsAnd you need a framerate of 200+ in 2.1 to trigger the bug
21:35.55JeffM2501I got it at 145
21:35.59tsCan do that when setting opacity of radar to black
21:36.05tsand make the radar real big
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21:36.27JeffM2501gack... no visual assist ether
21:36.28tseven my crap radeon 9600 gives me 300FPS at 1680*1050
21:36.40JeffM2501this is a 9200
21:36.41tswith those setting
21:36.46TD-Linuxsorry I missed whatever someone said to me... I forgot BZFlag crashes X on this machine :P
21:36.48JeffM2501on a laptop
21:36.50JeffM2501with shared ram
21:37.20tsI observed I get higher FPS in experimental mode than in low mode
21:37.25*** join/#bzflag bz85 (n=54998d23@bz.bzflag.bz)
21:37.38tsalso smoothing and blending take fps
21:37.49tsbut it could also be your lappy is just too slow
21:37.50JeffM2501ts, dude I said I got it
21:37.52ts:/
21:38.26JeffM2501Erroneous, can you see how big the vissual assist installer is on the software share?
21:38.58Erroneousyes.
21:39.02tsJeffM2501: Oh, you trigger it at 145 already?
21:39.06JeffM2501ys
21:39.07JeffM2501yes
21:39.10Erroneousyes.
21:39.13tsThought you asked me how to get more fps, silly
21:39.17JeffM2501that's why I said " I got it at 145"
21:39.30JeffM2501Erroneous, is it small enough to e-mail :)
21:39.43Erroneousprolly...it claims to be an upgrade though
21:39.56JeffM2501it is
21:40.09JeffM2501there should be a license file in the vc6 version
21:40.19JeffM2501can you mail me them please?
21:40.29ErroneousI don't see the vc6 version
21:40.47JeffM2501hope Jer didn't pull it
21:40.53JeffM2501should be around there somewhere
21:40.57JeffM2501a regular and a .net version
21:41.32Erroneousah, the info is in the 7.1 license file
21:42.23Erroneousto which address would you like it mailed? work?
21:43.15JeffM2501work is fine
21:43.16JeffM2501thank you
21:43.48JeffM2501looks like we have a dt limit of 0.005
21:43.52JeffM2501that seems big
21:44.40Erroneouslower limit?
21:44.43JeffM2501yeah
21:44.52JeffM2501we skip the tank update if the dt is lower then that
21:44.53Erroneousthat is rather large
21:44.55JeffM2501and in that loop
21:45.03JeffM2501it could build up to a big "voop"
21:45.13Erroneousk, sent
21:45.16JeffM2501thanks
21:45.22Erroneousnp
21:45.23JeffM2501it's wierd how you get used to that tool :)
21:45.57JeffM2501the goto button is my lifesaver
21:46.09Erroneousgoto button?
21:46.16JeffM2501you never installed it?
21:46.19Erroneousnaw
21:46.22JeffM2501oh man
21:46.23JeffM2501you should
21:46.35JeffM2501it's very unobtusive
21:46.36Erroneoushad it installed at home for a while, didn't care for it
21:46.42JeffM2501ahh
21:47.04JeffM2501it puts a button that you can hit that takes you to the selected method/variable/function
21:47.10JeffM2501in it's proper context
21:47.21JeffM2501so if your in a derived class it takes you to the derived version
21:47.39Erroneouslike right-click, go to definition?
21:47.47JeffM2501also the "open the h file that matches this cpp file"
21:47.52JeffM2501Erroneous, yes but context senstive
21:48.01Erroneousgo to definition is context-sensitive
21:48.05JeffM2501the goto shows you all of them
21:48.14JeffM2501right click goto never takes me to the right place
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21:48.26Erroneousif it's ambiguous it asks
21:48.41JeffM2501yeah this never asks cus it looks at what is calling you
21:48.45Erroneousalmost always has the right one selected by default
21:48.48JeffM2501it's an extension of it
21:48.52JeffM2501just easier for me
21:49.01JeffM2501the open the h or cpp is handy
21:49.07JeffM2501specialy when you name files on classes
21:49.25Erroneousthe h should always be at the top of the cpp anyway
21:49.30Erroneousright-click it and click open
21:49.39JeffM2501then you have to scholl
21:49.43JeffM2501hit a button
21:49.43Erroneousctrl-home
21:49.51JeffM2501then I can hit back / forth and not lose my place
21:49.55JeffM2501;)
21:50.11JeffM2501I love it
21:50.13Erroneousctrl-g, line number
21:50.28JeffM2501I often toggle  between a header and a cpp
21:50.33ErroneousI do too much random clicking...back/forth NEVER goes the right place
21:50.38JeffM2501and use the back as a way to talk my changes like a history
21:50.41JeffM2501ahh
21:50.57ErroneousI select things while I'm reading them, stuff like that
21:51.04JeffM2501I use the arrow keys to move arround code, so my clicks are usualy ok
21:51.06JeffM2501heh'
21:51.14JeffM2501nervious clicker
21:51.17Erroneoushehe
21:51.26ErroneousI don't like arrow keys
21:51.28JeffM2501to each ther own
21:51.30Erroneousvi habit maybe
21:52.18Erroneousjkl; is so much more convenient than moving your hand to the arrows
21:52.39Erroneousand I right-click enough in VS, that if I'm gonna move my hand, I'm gonna put it on the friggin mouse
21:53.47JeffM2501man why does nyquill have to taste like distilled butt?
21:54.02Erroneousto discourage you from drinking it out of the bottle and dying
21:55.04TD-Linuxhttp://my.bzflag.org/w/Template:Old
21:55.07ErroneousTD-Linux: your "old" screenshot is pretty obviously not-old...tabs on the control panel, new fonts... :)
21:55.26Erroneoustransparent hud
21:55.43TD-Linux:P
21:55.47TD-LinuxI don't have a better screenshot
21:55.51TD-Linuxand I couldn't find one...
21:56.08JeffM2501I probably have 1.7b2 around
21:56.25TD-Linuxthat would be a lot better
21:56.38*** join/#bzflag _LongDon (n=LongDon@www.online4sale.de)
21:56.53Erroneoushttp://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3248&package_id=3165&release_id=63003
21:57.06*** part/#bzflag _LongDon (n=LongDon@www.online4sale.de)
21:57.07Erroneous1.7e4...that and before should be sufficiently "old" :)
21:57.18TD-Linux:)
21:57.19Erroneous1.7e6 was the "new hud" release
21:57.21JeffM2501b4 is older ;)
21:57.34Erroneousthat was a terrible pun, JeffM2501
21:57.35*** join/#bzflag menotume (n=menotume@pdpc/supporter/active/menotume)
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21:58.49JeffM2501thank you, I'm hear till thursday, try the veal
21:59.23*** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux)
21:59.57TD-Linuxbzflag murdered X again :(
22:00.28Erroneousheh
22:00.33Erroneousrun it in a window
22:00.57Erroneousand I think it's actually your video drivers that murder X
22:02.07*** join/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@dialin-213-170-173-230.ewetel.net)
22:02.48*** part/#bzflag donny_baker (n=donny_ba@about/essy/vvvvv/donnybaker)
22:03.57JeffM2501well my change "fixed" it
22:04.10JeffM2501tho I'm not happy with it
22:04.35JeffM2501realy I just moved it down into the tens of thousands of fps
22:04.56*** join/#bzflag lodxcol (n=lodxcol@unaffiliated/lodxcol)
22:05.58CIA-1BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/include/common.h: 0.005 isnt' that small, we can go smaller. This isn't a good "fix" for long term, we should evaluate the physcics stuff and make it work correclty on any DT, but this will at least make the game playable for now.
22:05.59*** join/#bzflag Flash (n=jwmelto@unaffiliated/flash)
22:06.18JeffM2501I was geting booted for jumping too high before the fix
22:06.31JeffM2501now after I always jumped 40 units high
22:06.35JeffM2501regardless of framerate
22:06.44JeffM2501180 vs 15 was the same height
22:07.39JeffM2501form what I can tell, 2.0 has the same issue, but my loop made it worse cus we go and accumulate more error
22:08.11JeffM2501oooooooo. nyquill kickin in ... good times
22:08.26lodxcolhmm, I seem to have an issue starting a server..
22:08.39JeffM2501what are you having problems with?
22:08.45lodxcolwhen I run ./bzfs.txt, I get an error stating my conf cannot be found
22:08.54TD-LinuxI am running it in a window... X just suddenly exits... It doesn't matter anyway, I'm stuck with indirect :/
22:09.00lodxcolbut it's right where I specified it to be..
22:09.10JeffM2501what is the comand line your using?
22:09.21lodxcolwhat do you mean?
22:09.23JeffM2501bzfs -conf the/path/to/your/config.whatever
22:09.32JeffM2501how are you runing bzfs?
22:10.31lodxcolI've got "/Applications/BZFlag.app/Contents/MacOS/bzfs -conf /Users/justin/BZFlag/conf.txt" in a file names bzfs.txt
22:10.48lodxcoland I just do ./bzfs.txt
22:10.58lodxcoland I get an error stating my conf could not be found
22:11.00lodxcolbut it's there..
22:11.14JeffM2501ahh your in a script
22:11.31lodxcolI tried the normal way too, doesn't work.
22:11.55JeffM2501well we just try to open that file
22:11.57JeffM2501if it fails
22:11.59JeffM2501for any reason
22:12.06JeffM2501permsions or whatever
22:12.08JeffM2501we give that error
22:12.15TD-Linuxdo we need a Village Pump for the wiki?
22:12.19lodxcolhmm
22:12.38lodxcolhow would I correct permissions in OS X?
22:12.51JeffM2501probably a right click thingy
22:14.04blast007JeffM2501: re: LDAP support in phpBB 2
22:14.14blast007there is a mod for phpBB 2
22:14.16lodxcolwell, I've got read and write access to the conf file
22:14.31blast007I just haven't tried it to see if it works
22:14.47JeffM2501ahh
22:14.48JeffM2501cool
22:15.00JeffM2501well the longdon guy wants to help :)
22:15.20JeffM2501lodxcol, is there any way some part of the filename could be incorrect or hidden, or something
22:15.22blast007there could be an issue if we do the mod
22:15.29JeffM2501we ust try to load it using the current working dir
22:15.37blast007namely if phpBB 3 would support what was done
22:15.46LongDonblast007: i will try out the mod
22:15.50blast007LongDon: okay
22:16.11blast007http://sourceforge.net/projects/ldapauthmod/
22:16.21LongDongot it already
22:16.25blast007and if possible, compare it with the phpBB 3 implementation
22:16.26lodxcolJeffM2501: well I'm using textedit, I don't really trust it's .txt's
22:16.26blast007ok
22:16.36lodxcolbut I don't know of another text editor for OS X
22:16.37blast007mainly for migration issues
22:16.39JeffM2501lodxcol, that is possible
22:17.33brlcadblast007: theoretically, once the data is in some ldap configuration, a mapping will be possible regardless to what phpbb does
22:17.41blast007right
22:17.49brlcadunless they demand/assume some ldap organization
22:18.56ErroneousTD-Linux: oddly enough, I had typed a comment to you suggesting something like that...community portal/village pump/wikiprojects page/something
22:19.01blast007I should also probably dig out my diagram for a new possible client/server handshake
22:19.20Erroneousthe main page is not really the best place for "stuff to do"
22:19.40Erroneousthough we should have a friendly message reminding people that anyone can edit, and go here to find out what needs to be done.
22:20.40lodxcolhmm, maybe it's not the .txt, I replaced all the text in the sample conf.conf with mine, and I still get a "cannot find bzflag conf" error
22:21.00gsneddersdid anyone ever redo the user auth to move away from phpBB's?
22:21.03JeffM2501then it's something with the path
22:21.07blast007gsnedders: no
22:21.08JeffM2501gsnedders, no
22:21.29blast007and I think the forum is at least one version behind again
22:22.16gsnedderswhere is the forum on .bz?
22:22.27JeffM2501yes
22:22.33brlcad"village pump" is a horrible phrase
22:23.20blast007heh, phpbb.com is down right now  :(
22:23.44Erroneousbrlcad: I tend to agree
22:24.15brlcadsewage lines? getting gang-banged by the village people? some sort of community plunger?  the lone water pump in a town with a population of 5?
22:24.20Erroneousguildwiki uses "Community Portal"
22:25.14brlcada bit generic ..
22:25.28brlcadgsnedders: /usr/web/my.bzflag.org/bb/
22:27.58gsneddersI may have a try at doing something with the auth this weekend
22:28.04gsneddersbut, I'm off for now
22:29.19blast007...just because Windows Server 2003 doesn't seem like what I want to target for development  ;)
22:30.09LongDonblast007: ack
22:30.16LongDonldap is nice.
22:30.29brlcadanother thing that would be great to tie into ldap is .bz auth .. so people in the right groups would also be able to log into the machine, and have access to various parts of filesystem
22:31.34brlcadthat would be an easy way to provide access to players to host their bzflag files in a web space, or let players set up bzfs under jailed accounts, etc
22:31.39blast007"Hmm, LDAP is down, let me just log into the server to ..... oh...."  (jk)
22:31.46brlcadheh
22:32.03LongDonYou can use proftpd to grant access to the filesystem and chroot the user
22:32.22LongDonAFAIK. Works with mysql so it should work with ldap too
22:32.40brlcadblast007: it'd just be another "sufficient" pam.d rule, there'd still be local account auth too
22:33.06LongDonYou will have problems with chroot when you use pami think
22:33.39brlcadlast I checked, works fine under bsd jails
22:36.01*** join/#bzflag ndim (i=hun@foobar.n-dimensional.de)
22:36.50LongDondoes .bz run bsd?
22:37.16brlcadonly the free-est
22:38.00brlcad(yes, freebsd)
22:46.33LongDonhavent used bsd in the past
22:47.18brlcadit's not really that different from a user-land perspective to that of linux
22:47.42brlcadget rid of gnu extensions, and it's even closer
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22:49.30brlcadotherwise administratively, things are just in different places, some different command line options on tools
23:03.38LongDonphpbb2 with ldapauthmod and phpbb3 only authenticate against LDAP. They dont store the accounts in LDAP
23:04.14LongDonSo the user accounts must be stored there via a third application
23:04.27LongDonOr both versions are rewritten
23:04.35brlcadthat could work
23:04.44LongDonor changed better to say
23:04.58brlcadwe'd just disable the ability to create accounts via phpbb once it was set up
23:05.22LongDonAnd provide a gui where the users register?
23:05.23brlcadaccounts would be made from within the client or via drupal
23:05.35LongDongood idea
23:06.00brlcaddrupal is the other piece of the puzzle still missing
23:06.04*** join/#bzflag triclops (n=triclops@203-217-47-13.dyn.iinet.net.au)
23:06.29LongDonThey could be created autmagically from within the client: The user set his username and password which are sent to the auth servers.
23:06.38LongDonThe auth server check for existence.
23:06.50LongDonIF its not existent the account gets created.
23:06.52brlcadright, that's the purpose of bzauthd in general
23:06.56LongDonNo client changes needed
23:07.32brlcader, this is going to ultimately require both client and server changes .. that's not really a concern
23:08.13brlcadit won't just create accounts on the fly like that for abuse reasons, there's a validation process still
23:08.24LongDonWhy client changes? Atm the client sends callsign and password to the server and gets a token back. Am i wrong?
23:08.32LongDonok
23:08.52brlcadto the list server, yes
23:09.16brlcadbut that has no knowledge of how to actually negotiate an account creation
23:09.58LongDonthats done by phpbb atm
23:10.17brlcadanother feature being looked into is to allow certificates to be used as well for passwordless auth
23:10.30brlcadright, all done by phpbb's
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23:31.44LongDonbrlcad: ldap auth works fine for phpbb3
23:31.57LongDonJust set up the ldap server and changed the config.
23:32.16brlcadyou installed phpbb3 local or something?
23:33.50brlcadpretty sure all the components we're looking at will work with ldap, it's more a matter of will they work *together* and then someone actually doing the setup on the server
23:34.41LongDonOnline on my server
23:34.53*** part/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=Think_Di@pool-70-21-51-29.res.east.verizon.net)
23:34.58LongDonI can do such a setup
23:35.07LongDon(i think) :)
23:35.53brlcadmaybe do a test on your server first that tests phpbb working with mediawiki next
23:36.25brlcaddoes mediawiki store to ldap or only auth as well?
23:37.41LongDonhavent taken a look yet. wait a moment
23:38.23LongDonBTW: phpbb3 still gives the user the possibility to change their password which doesnt work because of ldap auth
23:38.55brlcadthat's fine, we would just shut off that code
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23:46.14LongDonbrlcad: authentication only
23:46.49LongDonnthat piece of code should be shut off by the phpbb devs automatically
23:48.15brlcadwhat's auth only?  phpbb, mw, or both?
23:48.38LongDonboth
23:48.43brlcadah, k
23:48.50brlcadso then drupal next? :)
23:49.09brlcadthat should conclude the trio.. and that one hopefully does more than auth
23:49.25LongDon:) drupal.org?
23:50.35LongDonquote from http://drupal.org/project/ldap_integration: "In addition, the newly added ldapdata module also facilitates management of LDAP data from within Drupal"
23:52.06LongDonI have to setup drupal before i can say what can be administered from within drupal
23:52.15brlcad"managing" ldap data in drupal is completely different topic :)
23:52.33brlcadit's more .. what happens when a new account is created
23:54.56*** join/#bzflag gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com)
23:58.07LongDonphpbb3 ignores new logins.
23:58.21LongDonwill try out mediawiki and drupal tomorrow.
23:58.41CBGI just had to killall -9 bzflag again, it was just hanging.
23:59.05CBGHeh, just figured - this is a build from my PPC iBook, on my intel iMac..
23:59.18CBGI bet that's the issue, I should build fresh on here...

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