| 00:07.52 | *** part/#bzflag tonyb2006 (n=tonyb@ool-45712c93.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 00:15.27 | Erroneous | amathis: /msg chanserv access #bzflag list |
| 00:15.41 | Erroneous | anyone over 10 is an op |
| 00:16.01 | Erroneous | over 25 is autoop |
| 00:28.45 | *** join/#bzflag ThePurplePanzer (n=bentz@64.252.0.65) |
| 00:40.10 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@2002:45a6:86ae:0:0:0:0:1) |
| 00:40.10 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 00:42.59 | *** join/#bzflag zee997 (i=3e4de48a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-8c02e351ec9518b5) |
| 00:57.17 | *** join/#bzflag Erroneous (n=dtremena@users.gibbscam.com) |
| 01:27.46 | A-Delusion | here's a concept ... sortof like the new flagstay plugin, the flagKEEP plugin, you could put bad flags and the best flags together in a zone, the good flags stay with you, but you can't drop the badflag until you leave the zone, |
| 01:28.02 | A-Delusion | like meteor's geno flag on boxywar |
| 01:29.19 | a_meteorite | ohh |
| 01:39.40 | tadd | I'd like a flag that is sort of like identify but instead of telling you what the local flag is, gives you the local flag's powers |
| 01:43.01 | A-Delusion | tadd, did you ever figure out a way to make textures look good at a distance... LOD |
| 01:43.13 | A-Delusion | MAXLOD |
| 02:00.00 | *** join/#bzflag brad` (n=brad@brad.bz) |
| 02:03.52 | tadd | nhi |
| 02:03.58 | tadd | not really |
| 02:04.03 | tadd | MAXLOD? |
| 02:05.37 | A-Delusion | it's in here.... http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5031 |
| 02:06.33 | A-Delusion | Level Of Detail.. |
| 02:07.00 | tadd | wow. cool |
| 02:07.04 | A-Delusion | I don't know much about it, but I keep hacking away... getting closer |
| 02:07.06 | tadd | thanks very much |
| 02:07.25 | tadd | i have been having trouble trying to place ARCs |
| 02:07.35 | A-Delusion | I'd search the whole forum for "MAXLOD" |
| 02:07.37 | tadd | they never seem to end up where I want them after I spin them and rotate them |
| 02:08.07 | A-Delusion | place them at 0 0 0, then use shift |
| 02:08.24 | tadd | yes. that helped. got me closer |
| 02:08.37 | tadd | shift works so long as I don't also try to apply rotate |
| 02:08.43 | tadd | perhaps rotate is not what i need. |
| 02:08.56 | A-Delusion | the rotate moves the Z value in the definition |
| 02:09.10 | A-Delusion | it will be x z y |
| 02:09.31 | A-Delusion | or z y x , depending on how far you spin it |
| 02:09.49 | A-Delusion | ummm, or something like that |
| 02:10.48 | tadd | ok |
| 02:12.23 | tadd | well... I tried to write a program that positioned arcs by printing out the BZW text primitive and I couldn't predictably put an arc |
| 02:12.29 | tadd | if it was rotated by 90 |
| 02:12.38 | tadd | drove me wild for a day and then I set it asside |
| 02:20.26 | A-Delusion | louman's alpine assault has about the simplest application of LOD I've seen, right at the beginning of the map, if you download it |
| 02:23.43 | tadd | cool. thanks. |
| 02:23.55 | tadd | I just had a placement bug on gmwar pointed out to me. |
| 02:24.12 | tadd | I uploaded a new version today and it has a couple of new 'features' that i have to fix. |
| 02:24.25 | tadd | purple-robbie was just on there pointing them out |
| 02:39.20 | *** join/#bzflag shorty114 (i=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |
| 03:11.12 | A-Delusion | tadd, you might want to try the new flagstay plugin, but you have to get a fresh 2.0.9 CVS to use it |
| 03:13.09 | A-Delusion | hmmm... tadd, make 100 flags in the zone, but make the flags extremely small, almost invisible |
| 03:13.45 | A-Delusion | it's possible to change the flag textures too... |
| 03:18.13 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpi (n=frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 03:24.50 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 03:31.22 | *** join/#bzflag codergeek42 (n=peter@fedora/codergeek42) |
| 03:43.33 | *** join/#bzflag Flash (n=jwmelto@c-24-9-8-185.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 03:49.55 | tadd | that could be amusing. |
| 03:49.59 | tadd | gotta run though |
| 03:50.04 | tadd | merry christmas |
| 04:55.38 | *** join/#bzflag Bluer_ (n=user@60.53.27.233) |
| 06:58.55 | *** join/#bzflag biggeruniverse (n=biggerun@adsl-68-90-161-137.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net) |
| 06:59.04 | biggeruniverse | hello |
| 07:03.04 | *** join/#bzflag biggerunivers1 (n=root@adsl-68-90-161-137.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net) |
| 07:03.19 | biggerunivers1 | much better |
| 07:03.24 | biggerunivers1 | gah! |
| 07:05.58 | *** join/#bzflag biggeruniverse (n=root@adsl-68-90-161-137.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net) |
| 07:06.02 | biggeruniverse | ok then |
| 07:06.10 | biggeruniverse | anyone awake? |
| 07:07.25 | Manu | no |
| 07:08.09 | biggeruniverse | I should have guessed |
| 07:08.11 | biggeruniverse | (i'll talk quietly) |
| 07:08.23 | biggeruniverse | (amongst myself) |
| 07:08.35 | A-Delusion | what time does you're mommy put you to bed? |
| 07:10.09 | biggeruniverse | I don't know |
| 07:10.22 | biggeruniverse | you mean me, I assume |
| 07:11.25 | Manu | you are smart ;) |
| 07:11.52 | biggeruniverse | I don't know what intelligence has to do with it |
| 07:12.04 | Manu | then you aren't smart ;) |
| 07:12.17 | biggeruniverse | you are smart ;) |
| 07:12.37 | Manu | yes I know :p |
| 07:12.49 | biggeruniverse | ~Manu+- |
| 07:15.04 | biggeruniverse | I think I'll just code it and ask forgiveness rather than permission |
| 07:15.07 | biggeruniverse | heh |
| 07:16.35 | biggeruniverse | well Manu, thanks for the intelligence assessment |
| 07:17.03 | biggeruniverse | A-Delusion: it would be a better question of when do I put my own kids to bed |
| 07:26.32 | Manu | biggeruniverse: np :) |
| 07:32.24 | biggeruniverse | :3 |
| 07:33.51 | Manu | don't expect a response from CIA-3 k |
| 07:34.07 | biggeruniverse | ? |
| 07:34.18 | biggeruniverse | All I wanted was hug |
| 07:34.20 | Manu | a bot can do many things |
| 07:34.32 | Manu | nor hugs, it only can say it |
| 07:34.38 | biggeruniverse | hugs are as far as I go |
| 07:35.02 | Manu | but it can't really hug ;) |
| 07:35.14 | Manu | only can write words |
| 07:35.29 | biggeruniverse | well, words are quite a lot |
| 07:35.47 | Manu | words with no feeling are simpy words ;) |
| 07:35.52 | Manu | simply* |
| 07:35.54 | biggeruniverse | that would be enough to pass the Turing test |
| 07:36.02 | Manu | heh |
| 07:36.11 | Manu | who care about it |
| 07:36.21 | biggeruniverse | Turing did |
| 07:37.00 | biggeruniverse | :P |
| 07:37.20 | Manu | he never talk about botd :p |
| 07:37.35 | Manu | bots* |
| 07:38.37 | biggeruniverse | in a way he did. He talked about FSM that could trick humans. Sounds like a definition of a bot to me |
| 07:39.39 | Manu | my concept of bots is far different |
| 07:40.28 | biggeruniverse | that doesn't mean it's right ;) |
| 07:40.34 | Manu | if I say here: I hug biggeruniverse. I can't hug physically you, but I hug you in my feelins |
| 07:40.43 | Manu | the bot can't think nor feel ;) |
| 07:41.02 | biggeruniverse | does it need to? |
| 07:41.03 | Manu | so I never say a bot to hug me |
| 07:41.09 | biggeruniverse | the human feels for it |
| 07:41.28 | Manu | yes because is like to talk to the walls ;) a silly thing ;) |
| 07:41.47 | Manu | well probably you need it |
| 07:41.50 | Manu | then it's fine |
| 07:41.55 | biggeruniverse | heh |
| 07:41.59 | Manu | ;) |
| 07:42.25 | biggeruniverse | Humans are social |
| 07:42.40 | Manu | Humans is too big ;) some humans maybe |
| 07:43.03 | biggeruniverse | :) in fact, the one thing we can not adapt to is loneliness |
| 07:43.26 | purple_cow | plenty of people have adapted to loneliness |
| 07:43.33 | biggeruniverse | not really |
| 07:43.43 | Manu | the automated responses of the bots is a weak try to make them a bit more humans ;) |
| 07:44.09 | biggeruniverse | perhaps, but how many of our own responses are automated? |
| 07:44.51 | biggeruniverse | we call ourselves lonely when we do not talk to our next-door neighbor |
| 07:45.06 | Manu | nothing is automatic in the humans ;) |
| 07:45.10 | biggeruniverse | but truly, it's different than living on an island alone in the middle of an ocean |
| 07:45.23 | biggeruniverse | Manu: you know that's not true |
| 07:45.49 | Manu | yes, probably it depends of the concept of automatic ;) |
| 07:46.12 | Manu | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:46.12 | Manu | <PROTECTED> |
| 07:46.23 | Manu | k |
| 07:46.25 | biggeruniverse | granted |
| 07:46.49 | biggeruniverse | even a bot? |
| 07:46.51 | biggeruniverse | ;) |
| 07:47.18 | Manu | well you pressed the button so is isn't automatic (the button is your message to the bot) |
| 07:47.24 | Manu | it* |
| 07:47.59 | biggeruniverse | and people say there is no art or philosophy in computing |
| 07:48.14 | Manu | hehe |
| 07:48.15 | biggeruniverse | on the contrary, it's all art and philosophy |
| 07:48.35 | Manu | philosophy means: Love for the knowledge ;) |
| 07:48.52 | Manu | philo - sophy |
| 07:49.25 | Manu | it's greek iirc |
| 07:49.34 | biggeruniverse | I wonder if Nietzsche would of had a blog. |
| 07:49.51 | Manu | they had another kind of blog |
| 07:50.01 | biggeruniverse | probably. and no one would read it |
| 07:50.05 | Manu | they usually do meetins |
| 07:50.21 | Manu | meetins were their blogs |
| 07:50.29 | biggeruniverse | meetings were their IRC |
| 07:50.31 | biggeruniverse | ;) |
| 07:51.07 | Manu | now I must work k |
| 07:51.10 | biggeruniverse | k |
| 07:51.17 | biggeruniverse | go make some euros |
| 07:51.22 | Manu | :) |
| 07:56.05 | *** join/#bzflag Bluer (n=user@about/essy/terimahkSC/Bluer) |
| 08:03.19 | *** join/#bzflag Pommes (n=Pommes@about/essy/frenchy/Pommes) |
| 08:09.08 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r (n=l4m3r@s122-230.resnet.ucla.edu) |
| 08:13.58 | *** join/#bzflag Tankie (n=45a14238@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 08:15.22 | L4m3r | whoa, freaky |
| 08:16.38 | L4m3r | same spam across multiple boards, phpBB and vB, at the same time |
| 10:36.52 | *** join/#bzflag orchid_ (n=bzgirl@unaffiliated/orchid) |
| 10:36.52 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v orchid_] by ChanServ |
| 12:13.40 | *** join/#bzflag diing (n=47fde8e2@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 12:13.44 | diing | hey |
| 12:14.13 | diing | bye |
| 12:58.13 | *** join/#bzflag Eagle246_ (n=Joe@CPE-60-229-245-130.nsw.bigpond.net.au) |
| 13:21.15 | *** join/#bzflag ts (n=ts@p54B03104.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 14:27.20 | biggeruniverse | hi ts |
| 14:27.31 | ts | hello |
| 14:59.17 | *** join/#bzflag damian (n=d961d617@vs189182.vserver.de) |
| 14:59.29 | damian | 88 |
| 14:59.39 | *** join/#bzflag Guest581eu (n=d961d617@vs189182.vserver.de) |
| 14:59.44 | Guest581eu | jj |
| 15:00.34 | biggeruniverse | tt |
| 15:40.33 | *** join/#bzflag A-Delusion (n=A-Delusi@pool-151-201-122-253.pitt.east.verizon.net) |
| 15:49.32 | *** join/#bzflag JBdiGriz (n=jbdigriz@206-15-67-5.static.twtelecom.net) |
| 15:49.32 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JBdiGriz] by ChanServ |
| 15:52.02 | *** join/#bzflag CIA-3 (i=cia@cia.navi.cx) |
| 16:01.55 | *** join/#bzflag bz44 (n=d961d617@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 16:28.16 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@about/essy/fan/CBG) |
| 16:46.07 | biggeruniverse | CBG! |
| 16:51.37 | amathis | hello |
| 16:51.41 | amathis | morning! |
| 16:52.31 | amathis | could someone clear up what the diff between installing an IDE platform and the same IDE platform SDK |
| 16:52.47 | amathis | dpes the SDK come with java stuff and libs? |
| 16:53.04 | amathis | or at least what does SDK stand for |
| 16:53.25 | amathis | ah |
| 16:53.35 | amathis | softwared dev kit, that's what I thought |
| 17:03.08 | *** join/#bzflag G5 (n=4309aa10@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 17:20.23 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@216.49.181.128) |
| 17:20.23 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:30.29 | CBG | biggeruniverse! |
| 17:54.20 | biggeruniverse | what is it you need, amathis? |
| 17:54.28 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
| 17:54.28 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 17:55.57 | biggeruniverse | CBG! (again) |
| 17:56.24 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 17:56.24 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 18:03.30 | *** join/#bzflag Erroneous (n=dtremena@users.gibbscam.com) |
| 18:20.22 | *** join/#bzflag zee526 (i=3e4de48a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-50d25fce10795181) |
| 18:31.19 | *** join/#bzflag jehn (i=5468b2c7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-43bdb746fceaa32c) |
| 18:31.55 | brlcad | ciao Tupone |
| 18:32.00 | brlcad | va bene? |
| 18:32.06 | Tupone | tutto bene |
| 18:32.12 | brlcad | excelente |
| 18:32.15 | Tupone | back home after a month |
| 18:32.24 | brlcad | good trip I hope |
| 18:32.31 | Tupone | si |
| 18:42.31 | *** join/#bzflag yosefk (n=4259a68d@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 18:43.45 | *** join/#bzflag Birdie (n=Birdie__@d54C12302.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:49.25 | *** join/#bzflag BenUrban (n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban) |
| 19:14.32 | *** join/#bzflag gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:34.30 | *** join/#bzflag tannerld (n=tanner@adsl-068-209-251-067.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 19:34.30 | *** join/#bzflag Flash (n=jwmelto@c-24-9-8-185.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 19:36.50 | *** join/#bzflag CIA-3 (i=cia@cia.navi.cx) |
| 19:47.12 | *** join/#bzflag findlay (n=justin@67.137.24.115) |
| 19:50.41 | brlcad | wow, 24 hours and not a single botnet attachment |
| 19:50.54 | brlcad | ~blast007++ |
| 20:01.22 | SportChick | ~poke brlcad |
| 20:01.23 | ibot | ACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind brlcad, pokes brlcad repeatedly, hilarity ensues. |
| 20:01.50 | *** join/#bzflag randomparticle (n=randompa@about/essy/snick/randomparticle) |
| 20:02.12 | biggeruniverse | O.O |
| 20:02.15 | *** part/#bzflag randomparticle (n=randompa@about/essy/snick/randomparticle) |
| 20:02.29 | *** join/#bzflag randomparticle (n=randompa@about/essy/snick/randomparticle) |
| 20:02.54 | biggeruniverse | I think the ensuing hilarity has scarred me for life. |
| 20:03.05 | *** join/#bzflag Leinad (n=cf98b50c@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 20:03.56 | SportChick | brlcad: do you know the dates for siggraph yet? |
| 20:04.58 | randomparticle | may i ask, must nurb surface trimming regions be convex? |
| 20:06.04 | brlcad | oh jeez |
| 20:06.18 | brlcad | SportChick: heh, sometime.. next .. summer |
| 20:06.20 | randomparticle | ? :) |
| 20:06.33 | brlcad | usually last week of july, first week of august |
| 20:06.52 | brlcad | randomparticle: you know how to program nurbs? or getting familiar? |
| 20:07.05 | randomparticle | getting familiarish |
| 20:07.32 | randomparticle | i''m not sure what's available off the shelf in glu |
| 20:09.20 | randomparticle | the man pages are somewhat terse |
| 20:09.48 | brlcad | hmm, I don't mean glu -- i mean to actually implement their geometric representation |
| 20:09.58 | brlcad | basically implement what glu sort of does for you |
| 20:10.07 | brlcad | if you did, I might have a job for you ;) |
| 20:10.09 | Birdie | lol what did you said no bots on bzbb? |
| 20:10.18 | Birdie | i see one just now |
| 20:10.26 | brlcad | Birdie: no, not on bzbb |
| 20:10.35 | brlcad | there are still spam registrations |
| 20:10.45 | randomparticle | i guess i could work something out, but i imagine years of research have already gone into this |
| 20:10.50 | Birdie | i meaned a post |
| 20:10.59 | Birdie | ah ok |
| 20:11.11 | Birdie | wops |
| 20:11.12 | brlcad | Birdie: the actual webserver attacks are what have effectively been halted.. botnets would attach/attack the server |
| 20:11.39 | brlcad | that was what was getting serious.. and was going to require halting services |
| 20:11.56 | brlcad | the web server was resetting a dozen or couple dozen times a day due to attacks |
| 20:12.24 | brlcad | randomparticle: decades |
| 20:12.46 | brlcad | but I need implementation, not research ;) I have/know about the research |
| 20:13.05 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 20:13.05 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 20:13.09 | brlcad | and glu is not a solution (it's utterly too slow and limited for analysis purposes) |
| 20:42.04 | brlcad | randomparticle: mathematically, trimming curves need not be convex .. i'd be surprised if glu imposed that restriction |
| 20:43.27 | *** join/#bzflag CIA-3 (i=cia@cia.navi.cx) |
| 20:46.21 | *** join/#bzflag tannerld (n=tanner@adsl-068-209-251-067.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 20:48.00 | *** join/#bzflag biggeruniverse (n=root@adsl-68-90-161-137.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net) |
| 20:54.33 | *** part/#bzflag randomparticle (n=randompa@about/essy/snick/randomparticle) |
| 20:57.45 | *** join/#bzflag Blue_Eyes (n=Blue@host232-213-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 20:58.39 | *** join/#bzflag Birdie_ (n=Birdie__@d54C12302.access.telenet.be) |
| 21:04.51 | Flash | As I look at the code, I see large bits of it that appear to be more C than C++ |
| 21:05.14 | Flash | If I were to work at improving the OO-ness of some code, would that be well received? |
| 21:06.27 | JeffM2501 | depends if the new code is maintanable |
| 21:06.41 | Flash | what is your definition of maintainable? |
| 21:06.42 | JeffM2501 | just making it OO for the sake of OO with no benifit is pointless |
| 21:06.46 | JeffM2501 | easy to maintain |
| 21:06.49 | JeffM2501 | not confusing |
| 21:06.54 | JeffM2501 | uses OO in logical ways |
| 21:07.04 | JeffM2501 | there is nothing wrong with some section being "C" style |
| 21:07.10 | Flash | I've had this philosophical discussion in other forums before... |
| 21:07.17 | JeffM2501 | I can tell |
| 21:07.23 | Flash | confusing is often in terms of what you already know |
| 21:07.47 | Flash | which is why some people write C++ as C |
| 21:07.47 | JeffM2501 | yeah but it has to be a functional product for us |
| 21:07.47 | JeffM2501 | some operations make sense in C style |
| 21:07.51 | JeffM2501 | for speed or readability |
| 21:07.58 | JeffM2501 | some don't |
| 21:08.11 | JeffM2501 | OO is not gods gift to programers, it's just one way to solve a set of problems |
| 21:08.13 | Flash | generally, I find that improving OO allows better abstraction, which improves readability/comprehension, in my experience |
| 21:08.25 | JeffM2501 | yes if it's done right |
| 21:08.34 | JeffM2501 | that would be good improvments, in maintainability |
| 21:09.00 | Flash | for example, do you see value to a position class, rather than dealing with xyz explicitly everywhere? |
| 21:09.12 | JeffM2501 | but if you for instance go bonkers on operators and overloads and templates and make something that is very OO, but not easaly debugable or maintanable then it's a step backwards |
| 21:09.22 | JeffM2501 | yeah I'd like to have a generic vector class |
| 21:09.27 | JeffM2501 | that is one place where OO would be good |
| 21:09.37 | Flash | ok, that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about |
| 21:09.44 | JeffM2501 | I have a set of math classes I use in my stuff |
| 21:09.54 | Flash | I am big on encapsulation |
| 21:10.01 | Flash | and limiting coupling |
| 21:10.17 | Flash | users of a class should not have to know details about its implementation |
| 21:10.28 | JeffM2501 | as long as it's a postive change, that would be fine |
| 21:10.36 | brlcad | actually.. |
| 21:10.38 | JeffM2501 | just don't go making a pixel object or something silly :) |
| 21:10.41 | Flash | lol |
| 21:11.09 | brlcad | i'd take a little exception to going as low as vectors without a direct provable benefit |
| 21:11.21 | brlcad | it's too easy to implement incorrectly in a way that would impact performance |
| 21:11.41 | Flash | there is a syntactic benefit to having "vector" operations abstracted |
| 21:11.43 | brlcad | and no offense, but your abilities are rather unknown (Flash) |
| 21:11.52 | Flash | yes, I know that is a given |
| 21:12.13 | Flash | I was going to state the obvious that I am a complete unknown to you guys |
| 21:12.26 | brlcad | syntactic sugar is interesting, but useless if it actually imposes a real run-time negative |
| 21:12.42 | JeffM2501 | I like a vector class you can sling around and pass into math functions |
| 21:12.45 | JeffM2501 | that's just me |
| 21:12.58 | brlcad | i do too, generally speaking |
| 21:13.01 | Flash | on the other hand, it provides a place to localize your optimizations so you only have to code efficient access once |
| 21:13.02 | brlcad | there are lots of benefits |
| 21:13.11 | JeffM2501 | makes the math more readable for complex operations |
| 21:13.16 | brlcad | but it's *really* easy to implement basic OO vectorness that is an order slower |
| 21:13.27 | JeffM2501 | yeah, it has to be fast |
| 21:13.39 | JeffM2501 | too much abstraction can be a problem |
| 21:13.39 | brlcad | it's actually not easy to get it as fast |
| 21:13.48 | Flash | are you aware of the rule of premature optimization? |
| 21:13.51 | JeffM2501 | Flash, remember that bzflag is old |
| 21:13.54 | JeffM2501 | REALY old |
| 21:14.09 | Flash | I know; refactoring is a key to keeping code fresh ;-) |
| 21:14.29 | JeffM2501 | there is also the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" rule ;) |
| 21:14.30 | Tupone | and to make it forget to the old one |
| 21:14.32 | Flash | the code I write today is much better than the code I wrote 15 years ago |
| 21:15.16 | Flash | ok, let me take a left turn.... |
| 21:15.20 | JeffM2501 | and how much of your old code is maintained by others |
| 21:15.28 | JeffM2501 | or even your new code |
| 21:15.29 | Flash | (lots, actually) |
| 21:15.38 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 21:15.42 | Erroneous | that's not the question; the question is, is the code you write today, much better than the code someone ELSE wrote 15 years ago :) |
| 21:15.51 | Flash | if I want to contribute to the cause, where should I start |
| 21:15.53 | JeffM2501 | define "better"? |
| 21:15.58 | JeffM2501 | wherever you want |
| 21:16.05 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: exactly :) |
| 21:16.15 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r (n=l4m3r@s122-26.resnet.ucla.edu) |
| 21:16.16 | Flash | Erroneous: much of the code I wrote 15 years ago is better than what others write today |
| 21:16.17 | JeffM2501 | if the code works it works |
| 21:16.44 | JeffM2501 | if the code can be reused better with litlle to no performace change, then that would be a "better" change |
| 21:16.55 | L4m3r | in a way, modern tech has made programmers lazier |
| 21:17.10 | Flash | that's not necessarily a bad thing |
| 21:17.13 | Erroneous | it's made them more efficient |
| 21:17.19 | L4m3r | we don't need to be as careful/stingy about memory and such, though |
| 21:17.21 | JeffM2501 | code reuse is good |
| 21:17.41 | Flash | being careful/stingy about memory and performance is costly |
| 21:17.53 | Flash | hence the rule of premature optimization |
| 21:17.54 | JeffM2501 | there are a number of cases where using more ram is faster then recomputing things |
| 21:18.05 | L4m3r | true |
| 21:18.29 | JeffM2501 | I mean look at wolfenstein, it used a "ton" of ram in it's day just to get around some trig |
| 21:18.36 | JeffM2501 | and that was the only way to get it to work in realtime |
| 21:18.38 | Erroneous | Flash: on a mature codebase, keeping track of performance is important. it's possible for a change to unexpectedly impact performance |
| 21:18.53 | JeffM2501 | like font manager did |
| 21:18.58 | Erroneous | indeed |
| 21:19.10 | JeffM2501 | tho we didn't realy have numbers from before font manager |
| 21:19.13 | Flash | True. But measured performance is the key: don't optimize something that's not a problem |
| 21:19.20 | JeffM2501 | and the benifit was worthwile |
| 21:19.30 | Erroneous | yeah, the benefit was good |
| 21:19.57 | JeffM2501 | the flipside of that Flash is don't design something that you know is going to be slow if a little more time will make it good, cus you don't know where it will go |
| 21:20.07 | Flash | of course |
| 21:20.29 | JeffM2501 | if you want to do code cleanups and refactoring of the code, be our guest |
| 21:20.32 | JeffM2501 | we do it when we can |
| 21:20.38 | Erroneous | of course the summary to all this stuff is "use good judgement" ;) |
| 21:20.40 | JeffM2501 | usualy when we add new stuff |
| 21:20.58 | JeffM2501 | I've done it somewhat in bzfs, splting out huge functions into new functions |
| 21:21.11 | JeffM2501 | I just never have the time to finish it |
| 21:21.17 | biggeruniverse | sounds like a lot of extra stack |
| 21:21.26 | Erroneous | it's worth it |
| 21:21.27 | JeffM2501 | it's not stuff that isn't called a lot |
| 21:21.40 | JeffM2501 | and it makes the logic a little easyer to read |
| 21:21.45 | Flash | so back to my question... is there a "wish list" of stuff the the key developers don't have time to get to? |
| 21:21.54 | biggeruniverse | it *is* stuff that isn't called a lot? |
| 21:21.55 | JeffM2501 | and easyer to find places, like "where does the callsign get verified" |
| 21:22.13 | Erroneous | as far as refactoring? no :) pick a particularly nasty spot and have at it |
| 21:22.22 | Erroneous | as far as features/bugs, see TODO |
| 21:22.24 | JeffM2501 | Flash, theres the bug list, but yeah as he says nothing for coding stuff |
| 21:22.47 | Flash | I'm not suggesting refactoring for its own sake; it can be a learning tool as much as anything |
| 21:22.54 | Erroneous | yup |
| 21:23.10 | Chestal | update the network protocol doc :-) |
| 21:23.15 | Erroneous | hehe |
| 21:23.22 | Erroneous | or make it self-documenting :) |
| 21:23.54 | Flash | Chestal: I wouldn't mind doing that, actually |
| 21:24.10 | L4m3r | hm... would it be *THAT* bad to just block web.de with a message that says not to use it? |
| 21:24.17 | Flash | 2.0.8 or 2.2? |
| 21:24.25 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r, sadly yes |
| 21:24.35 | Flash | Tupone: which is why I am asking ;-) |
| 21:24.45 | JeffM2501 | do a small section, submit a patch |
| 21:24.47 | Erroneous | start small |
| 21:24.49 | JeffM2501 | and see how it goes |
| 21:25.00 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r, a number of real users, use it |
| 21:25.03 | Erroneous | if we can't review it all fairly quickly at first, we'll ignore it :) |
| 21:25.07 | Chestal | Flash: work on 2.1 (2.2), only bug fixes for 2.0 |
| 21:25.10 | L4m3r | how many? |
| 21:25.20 | Erroneous | a dozen or so, iirc |
| 21:25.26 | biggeruniverse | posh. nothing ever gets done with small patches |
| 21:25.28 | biggeruniverse | :P |
| 21:25.34 | Erroneous | not a whole lot, but not a negligible number |
| 21:25.49 | Erroneous | biggeruniverse: small things get done with small patches :) |
| 21:26.05 | L4m3r | we should get them to use that bzflag.be forwarding and switch :) |
| 21:26.16 | biggeruniverse | lim(k->inf.) 1/k |
| 21:27.04 | Erroneous | significance is not proportional to (is there a unicode character for the "is not proportional to" symbol?) patch size |
| 21:27.27 | biggeruniverse | rewrite the entire scene graph ;) |
| 21:27.30 | Erroneous | quick example: a one-character change can make your tank invincible :) |
| 21:27.34 | L4m3r | btw, I don't think hidden fields and such are going to do much for us. newer bots don't seem to be phpBB specific |
| 21:29.44 | biggeruniverse | add LUA scripting, or a COLLADA map loader or something big and scary |
| 21:30.31 | biggeruniverse | with teeth |
| 21:33.27 | biggeruniverse | anyway, I'm of the opinion that the "limbs and outward flourishes" as it were of a large body of code can be C as long as the core is a solid and cohesive peice of code (which is easiest done in C++) |
| 21:33.36 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r, that was one option yes, I'd like to maybe prevent new web.de registrations, and tell them how to get a forwarder to reg |
| 21:33.54 | JeffM2501 | as we don't raly need to ban old users with webde, just new ones |
| 21:33.58 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 21:34.17 | L4m3r | well, ideally we'd stick in a separate thing with an error message so that users whow why |
| 21:34.37 | L4m3r | we could have Romfis or someone else translate it into German too ;) |
| 21:34.55 | L4m3r | sorta like the website blocking bit |
| 21:35.15 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: by "can", I assume you mean "without killing oneself"? |
| 21:39.40 | JeffM2501 | or hurling |
| 21:39.48 | JeffM2501 | I've had enough hurling for one 24 hour period |
| 21:44.45 | brlcad | the font manager and the bzdb vars.. that took a while to find that sucker was slowing things down a bit |
| 21:47.03 | brlcad | which is right in line with what I was worried about with a vector class.. that would be a distributed performance hit -- not to optimize prematurely, but you'd have to show that the class was as fast as what it was replacing when it's something that fundamental |
| 21:47.28 | brlcad | the same would hold true for changing the networking stack protocol, I'd opinionate |
| 21:47.50 | brlcad | having it be self-documenting would be sweet, though.. mm.. |
| 21:49.28 | brlcad | biggeruniverse: plenty gets done with small patches.. especially lots of good ones that are easy to apply |
| 21:49.33 | brlcad | it's gets you commit access :) |
| 21:52.48 | *** join/#bzflag CIA-3 (i=cia@cia.navi.cx) |
| 21:52.55 | biggeruniverse | well, who doesn't like that |
| 21:54.37 | JeffM2501 | I didn't submit patches to get commit access |
| 21:55.55 | *** join/#bzflag master_tux (n=dark_dem@ool-45770c9b.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 21:55.58 | Erroneous | heh |
| 21:56.39 | brlcad | grandfather clause |
| 21:57.53 | JeffM2501 | true, I did have code in from before |
| 21:58.07 | brlcad | having a specific project in mind could potentially get you access too.. I think several have gotten it without patches because they were going to work on [something(tm)] |
| 21:58.09 | JeffM2501 | but Tim didn't know me |
| 21:58.21 | JeffM2501 | yeah some have |
| 21:58.27 | JeffM2501 | I got it for the editor IIRC |
| 21:58.51 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous got it cus he's prety cool |
| 21:58.54 | brlcad | yeah, I think I might have gotten it to work on the Mac port |
| 21:58.59 | JeffM2501 | brlcad got it cus he cares about the mac :) |
| 21:59.01 | brlcad | suckers... |
| 21:59.19 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 21:59.29 | Erroneous | I submitted one doc patch, and the png screenshot code |
| 21:59.35 | JeffM2501 | I do think I need to go home early |
| 21:59.42 | brlcad | ooh, someone who was actually given access on merit |
| 21:59.44 | JeffM2501 | lest the day not end well :( |
| 22:00.19 | Erroneous | pft, I demonstrated that I knew absolutely nothing about design :) |
| 22:00.30 | JeffM2501 | and we do? |
| 22:00.37 | Erroneous | well... ;) |
| 22:00.50 | Erroneous | I got here, didn't I? |
| 22:00.55 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 22:01.00 | brlcad | sucker :) |
| 22:01.10 | JeffM2501 | somehow I picked up a bulleten board on the way |
| 22:01.36 | Erroneous | written straight from the w3c docs |
| 22:01.41 | JeffM2501 | do you still blink when you see PNG? |
| 22:01.45 | Erroneous | I do |
| 22:01.49 | Erroneous | you are blinking now |
| 22:01.52 | JeffM2501 | png |
| 22:01.55 | Erroneous | hehe |
| 22:02.31 | Erroneous | I can summarize the spec from memory now |
| 22:02.49 | Erroneous | including the adam-7 interlacing, which is the only part I've not implemented |
| 22:03.32 | Erroneous | see, we could have used libpng, but then I wouldn't know the spec now :) |
| 22:06.41 | brlcad | heh |
| 22:10.35 | master_tux | 0_0 dhcpcd hangs when I run it :( |
| 22:20.57 | master_tux | meh |
| 22:26.57 | brlcad | png png png |
| 22:28.05 | Erroneous | grrr |
| 22:28.56 | brlcad | grrrpngreat? |
| 22:29.36 | brlcad | mm.. or pngrrreat! |
| 22:30.19 | *** part/#bzflag biggeruniverse (n=root@adsl-68-90-161-137.dsl.ksc2mo.swbell.net) |
| 22:34.21 | Erroneous | hm, it didn't alert on those :) |
| 22:44.09 | *** join/#bzflag gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-139-123-225.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) |
| 23:21.05 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@24-159-197-22.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 23:30.27 | *** join/#bzflag purple_cow (n=david@zero.navi.cx) |
| 23:30.27 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o purple_cow] by ChanServ |
| 23:30.46 | *** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |
| 23:43.56 | *** join/#bzflag [shorty114] (i=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |