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| 04:34.54 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * 10bzflag/MSVC/VC71/bzflag.vcproj: Remove HUDuiTextureLabel.cxx from project |
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| 08:39.31 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03t-s * 10bzflag/include/global.h: Do not put commas at the end of enums |
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| 13:41.43 | Manu | brlcad: arent the commonly queried servers in http://my.bzflag.org a bit outdated? :) |
| 13:42.25 | Manu | bzflag.hashmark.net passed away years ago |
| 13:43.38 | Manu | and almost the same to the other servers |
| 13:44.10 | Manu | and the news too :/ |
| 13:44.34 | Birdie | is there one of those servers still up? |
| 13:44.42 | Manu | no |
| 13:44.50 | Manu | at last in those listed ports |
| 13:45.20 | Manu | it looks like the web site is a bit outdates, like phpbb :) |
| 13:45.25 | Manu | outdated* |
| 13:45.36 | Birdie | for a new list for most popular servers, i would take borrego, viper, wnc, bzflag0, dub, silvercat? |
| 13:46.16 | Manu | probably |
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| 13:58.48 | Birdie | and there goes the global down |
| 14:00.33 | Manu | up again |
| 14:25.32 | *** join/#bzflag quantumdot (n=Juan@about/essy/Charm/quantumdot) |
| 14:32.50 | the_enemy | "Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at my.bzflag.org." |
| 14:33.03 | quantumdot | it is down |
| 14:33.08 | quantumdot | including the serverlist |
| 14:33.13 | quantumdot | ~bfs |
| 14:33.15 | ibot | somebody said bfs was a Big Freakin Spider |
| 14:33.53 | the_enemy | just checking people knew since Manu had said it was up a little while ago :) |
| 14:34.32 | quantumdot | it has been going up/down in the last few days |
| 14:40.23 | Manu | quantumdot: yes, due to atacks |
| 14:40.33 | quantumdot | really? |
| 14:40.37 | quantumdot | oh my |
| 14:41.01 | Manu | attacks I mean.. |
| 14:41.01 | Manu | yes |
| 14:41.27 | quantumdot | manu: pm |
| 14:42.57 | blast007 | Manu: the "commonly queried servers" are hard-coded into the site ;) |
| 14:43.39 | DTRemenak | blast007: they still need to be updated ;) |
| 14:43.49 | blast007 | DTRemenak: or automatically generated |
| 14:44.14 | DTRemenak | that would be more difficult ;) |
| 14:44.18 | blast007 | ;) |
| 14:48.46 | Manu | blast007: yes I figured it |
| 14:49.24 | Manu | noodleroni's ages |
| 14:49.50 | Manu | it was down again :/ |
| 14:50.05 | blast007 | working for me |
| 14:50.21 | Manu | blast007: yes after I restarted ;) |
| 14:50.31 | blast007 | heh :) |
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| 15:03.51 | gsnedders | brlcad: you still looking to see if there's anyone help willing to update the phpBB? |
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| 15:12.56 | brlcad | gsnedders: until it's fixed |
| 15:13.07 | gsnedders | brlcad: then I'm available. |
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| 15:45.49 | brlcad | gsnedders: are you capable? :) |
| 15:46.06 | gsnedders | brlcad: yes. |
| 15:46.06 | brlcad | that is, do you know what all is involved |
| 15:46.17 | gsnedders | brlcad: is it much hacked at, the phpBB install? |
| 15:46.27 | brlcad | Manu: yes, quite outdated -- it's not dynamically updating |
| 15:47.13 | gsnedders | brlcad: although some people would argue that I'm not, due to nothing more than my age. |
| 15:47.32 | brlcad | there is a fair bit of customization to make the groups work for our purposes |
| 15:47.49 | brlcad | as well as applying a few phpbb mods like quick reply (though that's not critical of course) |
| 15:48.36 | ruskie | :) |
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| 15:48.47 | brlcad | the bigger trick is getting everything updated while leaving the current one alone |
| 15:48.58 | gsnedders | if I can do it all today, then it'll be no problem. |
| 15:49.09 | gsnedders | and it should take an hour - max. |
| 15:49.12 | brlcad | i doubt it's a one-day job |
| 15:49.29 | ruskie | start using a linux-vserver then you can have two deployed at the same time one for testing and updating and the other live.. |
| 15:50.14 | brlcad | getting two running simultaneously isn't hard, it's just work |
| 15:50.17 | gsnedders | it'll be impossible to do without any downtime, inevitably, but any there is should be a few minutes, at most. |
| 15:50.38 | gsnedders | the time consuming stuff can all be done with it downloaded, and without any data. |
| 15:50.46 | brlcad | ideally, it'd be a mv and a mv and the new one would be live, merely seconds |
| 15:51.11 | brlcad | but if it has to go down for even a few days, that'd be fine too so long as it was going to get fixed |
| 15:51.23 | gsnedders | problem then is the upgrade script, which needs to be in the install/ dir, which it takes the board down while it exists. |
| 15:51.49 | gsnedders | ruskie: I learnt that too :) |
| 15:52.01 | ruskie | now if I think something will take 2 hours I say 6 hours |
| 15:52.08 | Erroneous | ruskie: the trick is to ensure that nothing can ever go wrong :P |
| 15:52.13 | gsnedders | ruskie: from trying to upgrade a minor thing in place, on the live site. |
| 15:52.24 | brlcad | gsnedders: not really a problem, you can dump the db and load up to a new one, get basically a mirror of phpbb running using that dump, then upgrade it |
| 15:52.26 | gsnedders | ruskie: small mistake in it took the site down for ages. |
| 15:52.44 | gsnedders | brlcad: problem is new data between the dump. |
| 15:52.58 | brlcad | not really, consider it lost data |
| 15:53.07 | gsnedders | brlcad: but really, the upgrade script should take nothing more than a minute, so it really isn't a problem. |
| 15:53.10 | brlcad | the alternative is to take it down, so it's lost either way |
| 15:53.47 | brlcad | i'm highly doubtful that the phpbb upgrade script is going to work |
| 15:54.05 | gsnedders | why? |
| 15:54.18 | gsnedders | the hacks to the groups? |
| 15:54.20 | brlcad | i believe blast007 and/or DTRemenak are more familiar with the mods that have been made |
| 15:54.27 | brlcad | but yeah, the mods |
| 15:54.36 | ruskie | Erroneous, overly optimistic |
| 15:54.37 | Erroneous | I don't know much |
| 15:54.54 | brlcad | the db "should" be kosher, but I"m guessing |
| 15:54.54 | gsnedders | take a dump, and keep hacking the update script till it works locally :) |
| 15:54.54 | ruskie | that's why I'm starting to rely on stuff like linux-vserver |
| 15:54.54 | Erroneous | ruskie: that's why it's such a trick :) |
| 15:55.32 | ruskie | basicaly a full system I can manage make a quick copy upgrade test and if it works swap over power down the old one and done... |
| 15:55.37 | brlcad | if the db is good to go, I'd suggest 1) dumping the db, 2) restoring the db to something new, 3) installing the latest phpbb fresh, 4) upgrading the db 5) applying our mods |
| 15:56.21 | ruskie | wouldn't it be better to rework the listserver to work without a forum? |
| 15:56.24 | gsnedders | the attachment mod for one changes the DB, so that would make it harder to do from a fresh phpBB install |
| 15:56.27 | brlcad | there's a LOT of junk in the dir that needs to be cleared out, might as well do the whole housecleaning while it's upgraded -- less to worry about being compromised anyways |
| 15:56.50 | brlcad | ruskie: most certainly, but that's considerably more work |
| 15:56.51 | Erroneous | ruskie: it would be best to rework the forum without a list server. they both have to use the same auth anyway |
| 15:57.06 | ruskie | Erroneous, says who? |
| 15:57.11 | Erroneous | says us |
| 15:57.17 | ruskie | us who? |
| 15:57.24 | brlcad | us |
| 15:57.25 | ruskie | I don't care for forums |
| 15:57.25 | Erroneous | this channel |
| 15:57.32 | gsnedders | I don't. |
| 15:57.33 | Erroneous | the developers |
| 15:57.41 | ruskie | very inefficient way of communicating... |
| 15:57.50 | gsnedders | Erroneous: cite your source, that they do. |
| 15:58.15 | brlcad | gsnedders: he did implicitly :) |
| 15:58.22 | Erroneous | we'd also like to use the auth for other things |
| 15:58.49 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Erroneous] by ChanServ |
| 15:59.14 | brlcad | having them share auth is useful, though it'd be nice if we just had a phpbb mod that went to "our" auth system (whatever that'd be) that the game also used |
| 15:59.19 | Erroneous | yes |
| 15:59.48 | gsnedders | brlcad: "our" auth system? how does the game currently work? |
| 15:59.57 | ruskie | imho any single sign on service is inherintly insecure... as if one is compromised the person get's access to a lot more than just one service... |
| 16:00.10 | brlcad | gsnedders: it uses phpbb's user/auth system |
| 16:00.14 | Erroneous | gsnedders: the game asks the list server about auth, which then reads the forum database |
| 16:00.23 | gsnedders | yeah, that's what I thought. |
| 16:00.32 | gsnedders | then how would a phpBB MOD be any different? |
| 16:00.35 | Erroneous | it was easy to set up, but not the best way to do things...makes us dependent on the forums |
| 16:01.01 | Erroneous | changing phpbb to use our auth makes our auth independent of phpbb |
| 16:01.13 | Erroneous | so if the forums get jacked/go down/get upgraded the game still works |
| 16:01.21 | gsnedders | so we have two auth DBs? |
| 16:01.24 | brlcad | gsnedders: wouldn't make us reliant upon phpbb strictly speaking, dependent upon their changes to their db structure, etc |
| 16:01.26 | Erroneous | no |
| 16:01.26 | gsnedders | or we hack phpBB to use our auth? |
| 16:01.30 | Erroneous | yes |
| 16:01.38 | Erroneous | or whatever other forum system we decide to use |
| 16:02.16 | brlcad | phpbb allows mods, which would be a fairly minimal "glue" if it abstracts to their user info well enough |
| 16:02.23 | Erroneous | essentially we write or otherwise obtain a lightweight, reliable, modular user/group system, and set up everything else to use that |
| 16:02.49 | gsnedders | Erroneous: I understand what you mean. I just wasn't clear what way you meant by "our" auth :) |
| 16:03.05 | Erroneous | ah :) |
| 16:03.10 | brlcad | our == for the game |
| 16:04.46 | *** join/#bzflag LordChi (n=CBGBot@cpc4-stme1-0-0-cust103.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 16:04.46 | LordChi | I say we move away from phpBB now, before it's too late! |
| 16:04.47 | *** part/#bzflag LordChi (n=CBGBot@cpc4-stme1-0-0-cust103.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 16:05.11 | ruskie | :) |
| 16:05.15 | ruskie | smart idea anyway :) |
| 16:05.54 | brlcad | so just so everyone is aware, the latest enforcement in place on .bz watches the network traffic for abnormally large amounts of outbound connections to a particular IP -- if it detects that situation, it then blocks that IP outright for inbound/outbound |
| 16:06.04 | Erroneous | ruskie: auth independent of the forums is a good idea anyway. that would allow us the freedom to choose whatever forum system we need |
| 16:06.12 | Erroneous | brlcad: how large is abnormally large? |
| 16:06.14 | CBG | SMF! |
| 16:06.49 | quantumdot | Erroneous: maybe two :) |
| 16:06.59 | brlcad | it will then restart apache if necessary, which usually takes just a second -- unless there are already zombies at which point it resets HARD and attempts for upwards of 10 seconds to shut the botnet down and then restart apache |
| 16:07.26 | Erroneous | quantumdot: naw, a dozen servers would already be delisted if that were the case :) |
| 16:09.06 | brlcad | Erroneous: currently more than 10, checking separately for outbound port 80 traffic (to another webserver) or otherwise established connections |
| 16:09.52 | Erroneous | brlcad: huh? checking separately? |
| 16:10.17 | brlcad | yeah, I was using different cutoffs for the two different types |
| 16:10.29 | brlcad | I wouldn't expect more than 1 or 2 outbound port 80's |
| 16:10.41 | *** join/#bzflag Mr_Molez (n=admin@openleague.org) |
| 16:10.45 | brlcad | but not ready to drop the count that low |
| 16:10.46 | CBG | uhoh |
| 16:11.01 | Mr_Molez | is server list being fixed ? |
| 16:11.22 | CBG | no they are gonna leave it down forever |
| 16:11.24 | CBG | sorry babe |
| 16:11.25 | brlcad | once the block was in place, it blocked half a gig of data over the period of about an hour |
| 16:11.29 | Mr_Molez | aww figures :( |
| 16:12.26 | brlcad | ~bzflist |
| 16:12.27 | *** join/#bzflag amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-24-10-162-63.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 16:12.33 | Mr_Molez | yay |
| 16:12.34 | *** part/#bzflag Mr_Molez (n=admin@openleague.org) |
| 16:16.24 | SportChick | hrm, list server is working but the ducati site is down |
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| 17:49.15 | brlcad | amcnabb: ping |
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| 17:54.08 | brlcad | gsnedders: so are you still interested in working on the task or were you sufficiently demotivated yet? :) |
| 17:54.56 | gsnedders | brlcad: sometime soon. I realised I've got a Latin essay due tomorrow, which I've barely started :\ |
| 17:55.55 | brlcad | ok, just let me know if/when and try to be sure you have the time available as it will take some effort to set things up for you to get started |
| 17:57.13 | gsnedders | brlcad: tomorrow, most probably. |
| 18:33.52 | blast007 | yeah, I can help list some of the mods necessary |
| 18:34.20 | blast007 | some of them are custom ones just for us, and were never documented |
| 18:34.50 | SportChick | win18 |
| 18:34.54 | blast007 | ;) |
| 18:35.05 | SportChick | :p |
| 18:35.22 | Erroneous | SportChick: / key sticky? |
| 18:35.43 | blast007 | space key too, apparently |
| 18:35.49 | Erroneous | yup |
| 18:35.53 | SportChick | Erroneous: no, I use /completion -auto but sometimes I mistype |
| 18:41.30 | blast007 | I had been working on upgrading the forum back when I was in college |
| 18:41.39 | blast007 | time was limited :/ |
| 18:47.23 | brlcad | isn't it always? |
| 18:48.53 | Erroneous | on the other hand, in high school I had *nearly* unlimited time |
| 18:50.26 | gsnedders | and due to still being ill, and catching up, I have very little time |
| 18:51.05 | gsnedders | (I'm also in the year above what I should be in, and dyspraxic) |
| 18:52.18 | amcnabb | brlcad, I'm back |
| 18:52.27 | amcnabb | I was gone for a bit. |
| 18:52.31 | brlcad | amcnabb: did the byu bz website go away? |
| 18:52.49 | amcnabb | http://bzrc.cs.byu.edu/ |
| 18:53.19 | amcnabb | It should still be there. |
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| 19:27.23 | brlcad | amcnabb: perfect, thanks |
| 19:28.46 | brlcad | oddly, google couldn't find it .. had some colleagues that might be interested in using your framework for a different AI purpose |
| 19:33.10 | amcnabb | brlcad, we probably just need to link to it somewhere. |
| 19:39.17 | amcnabb | Hey. Did anyone have any concerns about the "bzfs -set _forbidOwnFlag 1" option that I want to add? |
| 19:40.03 | amcnabb | The one concern I heard someone mention was that you can't bring your flag back to your own base, but that's why we wanted the option. |
| 19:40.28 | amcnabb | We wanted to make it so when the option is set, players can't take their flag back to their own base. |
| 19:43.53 | amcnabb | It's a tiny little change, but I don't want to check it in if there's some problem with the idea. |
| 19:54.21 | brlcad | woot, restart script seems to be working like a charm now -- just caught another within a minute of the botnet connecting |
| 19:54.58 | blast007 | :) |
| 19:55.44 | brlcad | amcnabb: i don't see a problem with the idea, especially if it's defaulted off |
| 19:56.00 | brlcad | though the name is a bit vague |
| 19:56.44 | brlcad | forbid picking own flag up, forbid capturing own flag, forbid carrying own flag towards enemy base ... |
| 19:57.15 | brlcad | there's a verb missing or something |
| 19:57.49 | blast007 | _forbidOwnFlagGrab |
| 19:58.33 | brlcad | if that's what it actually does, sounds like it'll let you carry but not towards your own base |
| 19:59.06 | blast007 | it probably prevents picking up the flag at all |
| 19:59.23 | brlcad | or just make it positive and default true, _ownFlagGrab |
| 19:59.30 | blast007 | yeah |
| 19:59.31 | *** join/#bzflag longhair (n=longhair@pool-72-95-6-39.hrbgpa.east.verizon.net) |
| 20:02.56 | amcnabb | brlcad, it prevents picking it up at all |
| 20:03.03 | amcnabb | _forbidOwnFlagGrab is good, I think. |
| 20:03.13 | amcnabb | Do you guys like that? |
| 20:03.27 | amcnabb | _ownFlagGrab is even better, I guess. |
| 20:05.09 | amcnabb | Do you mind if I go ahead and add it with the new name (_ownFlagGrab)? |
| 20:05.27 | blast007 | sounds good |
| 20:05.34 | blast007 | I think it sounds like a viable feature |
| 20:06.05 | blast007 | it will cause initial confusion when servers turn it on, but that's understandable with any change of this nature |
| 20:06.38 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
| 20:06.38 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 20:07.06 | amcnabb | Yeah. |
| 20:07.31 | amcnabb | Actually, how about _grabOwnFlag (reorder the words) |
| 20:07.35 | amcnabb | Or is that worse? |
| 20:09.03 | blast007 | hmm |
| 20:09.21 | Erroneous | didn't someone already add a change like that? or was I imagining it? |
| 20:09.45 | amcnabb | Erroneous, I haven't seen it, and the code doesn't look like it has it there. |
| 20:10.02 | amcnabb | However, I originally submitted a patch about a month ago that implemented it. |
| 20:10.09 | amcnabb | Maybe that's what you're thinking of. |
| 20:10.29 | Erroneous | ah, that could be |
| 20:11.30 | amcnabb | blast007, what do you think about the names? |
| 20:12.09 | *** join/#bzflag Gnurdux (n=gnurdux@c-69-251-233-242.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 20:12.10 | blast007 | either way works |
| 20:12.57 | Erroneous | amcnabb: if we were consistent, I'd tell you to follow the pattern. but we aren't, so you can do whatever you want ;) |
| 20:13.26 | amcnabb | :) |
| 20:13.55 | blast007 | a pattern? is that like a plan of some sort? ;) |
| 20:14.34 | Erroneous | a pattern comes from following a plan, blast007 |
| 20:14.44 | Erroneous | since we do not do the latter, we do not get the former :) |
| 20:20.21 | *** join/#bzflag delusional_ (n=A-Delusi@pool-71-240-64-149.pitt.east.verizon.net) |
| 20:21.23 | blast007 | hehe |
| 20:28.32 | *** part/#bzflag romfis (i=user@chello062178107024.8.12.vie.surfer.at) |
| 20:34.05 | brlcad | mm.. naming conventions |
| 20:35.20 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r (n=l4m3r@s122-37.resnet.ucla.edu) |
| 20:35.47 | Erroneous | I estimate less than two days |
| 20:39.04 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@24-159-197-22.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 20:39.10 | amcnabb | Here goes nothing. |
| 20:39.11 | amcnabb | :) |
| 20:39.22 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03amcnabb * 10bzflag/ (4 files in 3 dirs): |
| 20:39.22 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: Add bzdb item. Now you can do "bzfs -set _grabOwnFlag 0" to disallow |
| 20:39.22 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: players from picking up their own team's flag in capture the flag. |
| 20:39.42 | TD-Linux | whoa. That is interesting. |
| 20:42.11 | CBG | how do you save your flag now? just have to guard it? |
| 20:42.32 | brlcad | pretty much |
| 20:42.50 | CBG | well, fair for both teams I guess. |
| 20:43.19 | gsnedders | but on some maps, *very* interesting |
| 20:43.22 | *** join/#bzflag Blue_Eyes (n=Blue@host213-210-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 20:43.29 | brlcad | makes it sort of like the old nintendo side-scrollers that'd let you go forward but not backwards.. |
| 20:45.41 | TD-Linux | ...becuase the NES could only hold two tilemaps in graphics memory at a time and still allow smoooth scrolling ? |
| 20:47.04 | brlcad | nah, just the way the games were written |
| 20:48.03 | brlcad | some would let you go back, some wouldn't .. depended on the story/game |
| 20:50.11 | brlcad | iirc, you could go backwards in mario bros, but not in double dragon for example |
| 20:50.59 | amcnabb | TD-Linux: what would grabTheirFlag do? |
| 20:51.27 | TD-Linux | you couldn't go backwards in the original mario brothers. |
| 20:51.40 | brlcad | maybe i'm thinking II |
| 20:51.43 | TD-Linux | amcnabb: brlcad suggested that :) |
| 20:51.50 | TD-Linux | I've never played II or III. |
| 20:52.00 | TD-Linux | I've only seen a NES once. I'm builing one on a FPGA right now tho. |
| 20:52.18 | brlcad | amcnabb: same thing as the one you just added, just instead prevent/allow you from picking up other team flags |
| 20:52.40 | TD-Linux | yay! teamkilling captures only! |
| 20:53.03 | TD-Linux | Possibly more useful would be to remove all team flags from the map. |
| 20:53.28 | brlcad | or game modes that temporarily disable captures of any sort (like the plugin that exists for this purpose) |
| 20:53.31 | amcnabb | brlcad, how do you capture the flag if you can't capture it? :) |
| 20:54.03 | brlcad | you wouldn't, that's the point.. :) |
| 20:54.34 | brlcad | basically to disable ctf, e.g. while teams are uneven |
| 20:54.48 | L4m3r | that carries a problem though |
| 20:55.08 | brlcad | more useful would be to fully merge the plugin, but you'd still probably want the basic option |
| 20:55.08 | L4m3r | it's been established that most servers don't like a blanket "no CTF" state |
| 20:55.28 | TD-Linux | plugin hook then, I guess. |
| 20:55.36 | TD-Linux | or a new bzfs option. |
| 20:55.38 | brlcad | most but not all .. there's a niche for every idea |
| 20:55.44 | L4m3r | BZDB is a plugin hook :) |
| 20:56.01 | L4m3r | but yes, the ultimate solution would be flag grab and drop events for the API :) |
| 20:56.02 | brlcad | i could hop on a server as admin and use the flag to get people to stop and listen while something important is being said, for example |
| 20:56.02 | TD-Linux | hmm. |
| 20:56.13 | L4m3r | yeah, not saying it's a bad idea |
| 20:56.16 | TD-Linux | _noCTFPercent, _noCTFMinDiff |
| 20:56.18 | amcnabb | That would make sense. |
| 20:56.43 | orange | brlcad: that goes right along with my idea of an administrative pause |
| 20:56.46 | orange | forced pause of a player |
| 20:56.50 | brlcad | yep |
| 20:56.51 | orange | which could be extended to a forced pause of all players |
| 20:56.56 | brlcad | it's just a milder form |
| 20:57.10 | orange | but the ability to pause one, would be so fantastic... talk to them about lag, tk's, etc. |
| 20:57.21 | L4m3r | Eventually I will have a more sophisticated version of the fairCTF plugin... we can look at features then :P |
| 20:57.23 | orange | it would really give you a chance to teach new players, instead of just having to kick them |
| 20:57.51 | TD-Linux | JeffM2501 was talking about hot team-switching a while ago... it woiuld be neat to switch them to observer for long talks. |
| 20:58.06 | JeffM2501 | that was one of the intents |
| 20:58.13 | JeffM2501 | that can be done via plugin in 2.1 |
| 20:58.19 | L4m3r | or just kick people over to the other team |
| 20:59.11 | JeffM2501 | tho to be truely usefull you need to be able to despawn somone with out killing them |
| 20:59.14 | TD-Linux | wow, that is a lot of stuff. |
| 20:59.16 | brlcad | swapping active teams is rather problematic without better notification/feedback, but switching to observer is pretty benign (assuming you don't piss them off by it wiping out a score) |
| 20:59.29 | JeffM2501 | it keeps the score |
| 20:59.40 | JeffM2501 | just changes team field |
| 21:00.08 | JeffM2501 | the client may need some more notification/re-initing tho |
| 21:00.37 | blast007 | pop-up dialog boxes ;) |
| 21:00.37 | JeffM2501 | voice over |
| 21:00.38 | blast007 | heh |
| 21:01.45 | TD-Linux | Hmm, a special tab on the console? |
| 21:01.58 | TD-Linux | It could pop up for very important things that need to be answered, then dissapear afterwards. |
| 21:02.50 | JeffM2501 | that is called a popup dialog :) |
| 21:03.02 | JeffM2501 | they are needed for tutorials as well |
| 21:03.30 | TD-Linux | It would look best if it was part of the console I think. |
| 21:03.36 | JeffM2501 | why? |
| 21:03.53 | blast007 | nah, it should pop up in the middle of the screen, dim the background, and have a close button |
| 21:03.55 | JeffM2501 | if it HAS to be answered before you continue, it should be forfront |
| 21:03.56 | brlcad | a little bztank paperclip |
| 21:03.59 | TD-Linux | You could type replies... oh wait, I suppose most people would want to click or use arrow keys. |
| 21:04.10 | blast007 | brlcad: hehehe |
| 21:04.15 | brlcad | "You look like you're trying to shoot a teammate, would you like some help? |
| 21:04.22 | blast007 | "It looks like you're trying to capture the flag!" |
| 21:04.39 | JeffM2501 | "It looks like you kinda suck, shal I drive?" |
| 21:04.43 | blast007 | :) |
| 21:04.56 | TD-Linux | hmm, that would be interesting. |
| 21:05.20 | TD-Linux | Be able to swap an observer and a player, and automatically set the observer to "driving with" |
| 21:05.48 | blast007 | ooo..server-control over the observer functions :) |
| 21:05.52 | JeffM2501 | the team swap was also intended to let a plugin do player substituations for match games |
| 21:06.03 | JeffM2501 | with out loosing a score |
| 21:06.34 | blast007 | the good thing is that the clients now respect their own score updates |
| 21:06.57 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 21:07.14 | TD-Linux | I noticed that in 2.0.x, server (plugin) kills aren't counted in the score, is that still true? |
| 21:07.57 | blast007 | oh, and btw, I now see why nobody has introduced better colors in bzadmin.... curses is a pain to do colors |
| 21:08.11 | blast007 | I was gonna try to make kill messages show the player color for both player names |
| 21:09.38 | blast007 | the easiest way to do that would be to make each UI process the messages themselves, instead of getting the message text and message color from the main bzadmin code |
| 21:12.24 | TD-Linux | AIEE, popup-like boxes! |
| 21:15.47 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03amcnabb * 10bzflag/src/bzrobots/ (6 files): |
| 21:15.47 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: Initial checkin for BZFlag Remote Control (http://bzrc.cs.byu.edu/). |
| 21:15.47 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: Note that the Makefile.am is still in progress. |
| 21:22.05 | wizart | hi. What about a lag color coding in the radar ? |
| 21:22.32 | wizart | neven the 150 ms lag difference are impossible to deal with on GU without wasting all three bullets |
| 21:23.43 | wizart | the only alternative is to play very carefull and camp because that's the only way you will be able to identify your victims and use lagstats to adjust before. |
| 21:24.05 | SportChick | wizart: you realize I never have anything under 180 on gu :( |
| 21:24.41 | wizart | That would be fine if I knew that it's you behind me. |
| 21:24.45 | wizart | nor someone with 180ms lag |
| 21:24.57 | SportChick | hunt me :) |
| 21:25.42 | wizart | he. That would be a solution. Can I hunt more than one tank? |
| 21:25.57 | wizart | nlike put all players above 120ms on hunt ? |
| 21:26.09 | PuMpErNiCkLe | Sure... use the '7' key. |
| 21:26.32 | wizart | oh... |
| 21:26.43 | wizart | nI've to try that right away |
| 21:26.45 | TD-Linux | wow, the shots look REALLY GOOD now that I tried playing with some bots. |
| 21:27.33 | wizart | he thanks PuMpErNiCkLe . I didn't know that |
| 21:27.36 | *** join/#bzflag RatOmeter (n=chatzill@139.78.95.188) |
| 21:28.07 | PuMpErNiCkLe | np |
| 21:29.18 | blast007 | I don't like the GM look in 2.1 .... it's more like a guided fireball ;) |
| 21:29.25 | TD-Linux | I don't really either. |
| 21:29.36 | TD-Linux | I would prefer something that looked like a missle... |
| 21:29.45 | TD-Linux | a shiny metal pointy thing with some fire coming out the bakc. |
| 21:29.48 | blast007 | I prefer the old 3D model patch if anything |
| 21:30.12 | TD-Linux | the new GM is too small. |
| 21:30.24 | TD-Linux | smaller than normal bullets... it doesn't seem right. |
| 21:30.28 | blast007 | yeah |
| 21:30.42 | blast007 | normal bullets are fun when you crank up the _shotSpeed, cuz they get REALLY long |
| 21:37.14 | *** join/#bzflag Gnurdux (n=gnurdux@c-69-251-233-242.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 21:40.22 | TD-Linux | Wow, that was fun. They look just like star wars turbolasers. |
| 21:43.24 | amcnabb | Has anyone tested the patch "pack vectors using a union" on an architecture than Linux i386 and AMD64. |
| 21:43.27 | amcnabb | ? |
| 21:43.39 | amcnabb | Those are the two platforms I've tested it on. |
| 21:44.04 | brlcad | wasn't that the follow-on to the other fix you provided a few months before? |
| 21:44.08 | amcnabb | Yep. |
| 21:44.21 | amcnabb | It works the same way, so I can't think of any problems that would happen. |
| 21:44.27 | brlcad | I'd applied and tried it on ppc, seemed to work |
| 21:44.35 | amcnabb | I'll go ahead and check it in, then. |
| 21:44.44 | amcnabb | If something breaks, it's my fault. :) |
| 21:45.22 | brlcad | doubtful, seems like it'll fix a bug that we're just not hitting (yet) |
| 21:45.51 | amcnabb | That's my attitude. |
| 21:47.26 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright (n=AAA_awri@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 21:47.57 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03amcnabb * 10bzflag/src/net/Pack.cxx: Fixed a bug with packing floats that we haven't run into yet. |
| 21:50.54 | amcnabb | I've got a problem right now for which I can't see a beautiful solution. |
| 21:50.59 | amcnabb | I'm wondering what the best thing to do is. |
| 21:51.27 | amcnabb | The binary src/bzrobots/bzrobots needs to link with just about everything in src/bzflag/ |
| 21:52.02 | amcnabb | This is because there is still future modularization work to be done with stuff in src/bzflag/ |
| 21:52.23 | amcnabb | The question is, what should we do with the Makefile.am in src/bzrobots/ ? |
| 21:52.41 | amcnabb | One idea is to copy in files from src/bzflag/, but that seems a little ugly. |
| 21:53.39 | amcnabb | I was thinking that it might not be a bad idea to create a src/bzflag/libClient.la or something, with the future plan to separate out stuff that belongs only in the bzflag binary or in the bzrobots binary, and keeping in it the stuff that should be in both. |
| 21:53.45 | amcnabb | Does anyone have any thoughts? |
| 21:54.16 | AAA_awright | this is for 2.2.x? |
| 21:54.26 | amcnabb | yeah |
| 21:54.33 | amcnabb | I'm not messing with 2.0. :) |
| 21:55.15 | amcnabb | brlcad and JeffM2501, I'd be surprised if you didn't have any thoughts on this. :) |
| 21:55.23 | brlcad | bleh, don't copy in files |
| 21:55.24 | JeffM2501 | huh? |
| 21:55.50 | JeffM2501 | copy bad |
| 21:55.57 | amcnabb | I guess we all agree on that. :) |
| 21:56.01 | JeffM2501 | bzadmin dosnt' copy files, and it uses stuff in the client |
| 21:56.04 | brlcad | as for a libclient, that was the purpose of src/game actually .. abstract away the gui and retain the game logic that could be used by multiple clients/servers |
| 21:56.04 | JeffM2501 | I'd just do waht it does |
| 21:56.24 | amcnabb | JeffM2501, bzadmin copies in one file. |
| 21:56.29 | JeffM2501 | what file? |
| 21:56.35 | amcnabb | Let me check. |
| 21:56.52 | amcnabb | ServerLink.cxx |
| 21:56.57 | JeffM2501 | then bzadmin sucks :) |
| 21:57.01 | brlcad | yeah, and it's fugly |
| 21:57.03 | amcnabb | :) |
| 21:57.04 | JeffM2501 | there is no reason it can't use the real one |
| 21:57.20 | brlcad | that particular file caused quite a bit of headaches at first when lars did that |
| 21:57.40 | amcnabb | I'd love to have everything in libgame, but there's a TON of work there. |
| 21:57.43 | brlcad | (with respsect to the build system) |
| 21:57.52 | brlcad | amcnabb: that there is ;) |
| 21:58.03 | brlcad | which is why it's not done but still a work in progress |
| 21:58.14 | amcnabb | It would be nice if we could gradually move toward it, but still have something working for now. |
| 21:58.20 | brlcad | a little tricky to decouple everything from ogl as you may have noticed |
| 21:58.28 | amcnabb | I sure have. :) |
| 21:58.58 | JeffM2501 | iiiiirrrrrrrllllllliiiiiicccchhhhhhhtttttt |
| 21:59.06 | amcnabb | :) |
| 21:59.14 | JeffM2501 | real shadows! |
| 21:59.26 | amcnabb | JeffM2501, I'd love to see it. |
| 21:59.39 | amcnabb | (but I definitely don't want to code it. :) |
| 22:03.10 | amcnabb | So what's the best pre-irlicht solution? |
| 22:03.13 | amcnabb | :) |
| 22:03.17 | brlcad | amcnabb: i suppose you could make a convenience lib in src/bzflag that could be linked against, though if it really is clean enough for a convenience lib then it probably ought to be moved to src/game already |
| 22:03.55 | amcnabb | I didn't say it was clean. :) |
| 22:04.00 | amcnabb | But it would work. |
| 22:07.10 | brlcad | i'm personally *really* hesitant to that sort of stuff just because cruft like that usually has a tendancy to long outlast the people that know why it was crufted |
| 22:07.19 | brlcad | that is to say that it stays crufty a very long time |
| 22:07.34 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@adsl-68-120-226-4.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 22:07.47 | brlcad | i mean look at the blasted listserver problem we've had for almost two years now :) .. the wasn't supposed to be permanent either |
| 22:07.52 | amcnabb | The problem is that I can't think of anything that's not-crufty, other than _really_ massive changes, like irlicht. |
| 22:08.07 | brlcad | but then i've added my own cruftyness so I can't quite preach ;) |
| 22:08.30 | brlcad | the move of the code to game is fairly orthogonal to a graphics engine |
| 22:08.55 | JeffM2501 | amcnabb, so would I |
| 22:08.56 | brlcad | you wouldn't want libgame bound to irlicht any more than you want it bound directly to ogl |
| 22:09.00 | amcnabb | It involves the move of graphics code out of everything else, so it's not as orthogonal as you would think. |
| 22:09.51 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, actualy it woudln't be that bad, since iirlicht has a null renederer :) |
| 22:10.09 | JeffM2501 | and can do a lot of scene database manageent for us |
| 22:11.01 | *** join/#bzflag Legoguy (n=Legoguy@adsl-70-131-71-146.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:11.40 | brlcad | the bigger issue I think would be the dependency, having libgame require linking against ogl (or against something else that requires ogl) .. doubtful you could compile irlicht sans ogl even if you're using a null renderer |
| 22:11.59 | JeffM2501 | you can |
| 22:12.10 | JeffM2501 | since it can be built on linux sans directx |
| 22:12.16 | amcnabb | Irrlicht really does look cool. |
| 22:12.17 | JeffM2501 | even has a full software mode |
| 22:12.22 | JeffM2501 | it is a nice engine |
| 22:12.38 | JeffM2501 | ogre does it similarly, the core ogre part loads the renderes dynamicly |
| 22:12.44 | brlcad | sans directx isn't the same as sans any graphics layer ;) |
| 22:12.55 | JeffM2501 | so you can use ogre and not have a renderer at all |
| 22:13.28 | JeffM2501 | but yes, abstraction isn't horible |
| 22:14.05 | brlcad | still seems fundamentally odd to have a rendering library tied so closely to game logic without that being intentional throughout the api design |
| 22:14.15 | JeffM2501 | it's not just a rendering library |
| 22:14.20 | JeffM2501 | it's a world simulation system |
| 22:14.53 | JeffM2501 | if it has the features for physics, then yes it does seem logical to have the game part use it |
| 22:15.03 | brlcad | heh, and bz's not just a game, it's a simplistic wargame simulation ;) |
| 22:15.04 | JeffM2501 | as long as that engine can be built sans graphics or windowing API |
| 22:15.17 | JeffM2501 | most engines these days do scene management |
| 22:15.26 | JeffM2501 | and you need some form of scene database access for the game |
| 22:15.36 | JeffM2501 | such as physics needing the octree |
| 22:15.50 | JeffM2501 | so you ether dupe that code/logic, or have a system that can integrate them |
| 22:17.06 | JeffM2501 | bz's scenenode system isn't actualy too bad for spliting it all up |
| 22:17.16 | JeffM2501 | just have to get the rest of of the gl calls centralised |
| 22:17.28 | JeffM2501 | then just have it not allocate rendering nodes at render time |
| 22:17.48 | brlcad | not quite a dupe of code, but is admittedly a bit wasteful for game and render/physics to have separate scene managers |
| 22:17.56 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 22:18.29 | JeffM2501 | IIRC from irlicht, each renderer is a #def, so you could make a null only engine |
| 22:18.35 | amcnabb | JeffM2501, so does that mean you're doing it soon? :) |
| 22:18.38 | JeffM2501 | oh god no |
| 22:18.57 | JeffM2501 | it'd be less work to just redo the simple bzflag game logic in another system |
| 22:19.27 | JeffM2501 | the core probelms with bzflag are not it's graphic system right now, but it's simulation and networking systems |
| 22:19.37 | JeffM2501 | trepan cleaned up the graphics code decently |
| 22:19.52 | brlcad | yep, moreso the network as that's always been the biggest issue |
| 22:20.02 | brlcad | though the simulation timing is meh too |
| 22:20.13 | JeffM2501 | and the game logic and simulation are very much tied togehter |
| 22:20.15 | brlcad | I swear it's actually gotten worse in 2 though |
| 22:20.18 | JeffM2501 | they are the same thing mostly |
| 22:20.30 | JeffM2501 | yeah, sim/network is not well understood |
| 22:20.56 | brlcad | i think it's mostly a matter of new code getting added that is somewhat expensive, but is only periodically called |
| 22:21.02 | JeffM2501 | I'd change to an engine/system that already has synced entity states |
| 22:21.09 | JeffM2501 | then just put in the simple bzflag logics |
| 22:21.15 | brlcad | which causes all sorts of nasty spikes and spurts of simulation hiccups |
| 22:21.18 | JeffM2501 | something that is built from the core to be lag compensating |
| 22:21.31 | JeffM2501 | yeah spikes are bad |
| 22:21.39 | JeffM2501 | little of our sim code even assumes any lag |
| 22:22.26 | JeffM2501 | if torque was open source that would be what I'd be looking to do bzflag in as a total game solution |
| 22:22.28 | brlcad | I'd just keep refactoring, I think too much of the "details" would get lost in translation |
| 22:22.44 | brlcad | easy to get the 90% obvious parts of the logic |
| 22:22.50 | amcnabb | Yeah. |
| 22:22.57 | JeffM2501 | those details are the ones that are poorly defined |
| 22:23.00 | brlcad | but that last 10% are what have taken years and years to build up |
| 22:23.03 | brlcad | they'd be lost |
| 22:23.11 | JeffM2501 | maybe some of them should be ;) |
| 22:23.27 | brlcad | they do create a lot of the cruft, but they also provide for a LOT of the gameplay in some instances |
| 22:23.30 | Gnurdux | brlcad: can you give an example? |
| 22:23.31 | JeffM2501 | refactor is viable, if you have people willing to do it |
| 22:23.41 | amcnabb | Since moving everything to src/game/ is a TON of work, and still pretty distant, what's the best thing to do now? |
| 22:23.45 | JeffM2501 | so far our commit rate is low |
| 22:23.51 | JeffM2501 | amcnabb, is gonna win for this month |
| 22:23.57 | brlcad | the problem is that there wasn't a great base to build upon to start with so refactoring involves a lot of abstraction that should have been added from the start |
| 22:24.01 | Gnurdux | switching to an engine and rewriting (basically) would create a definite goal |
| 22:24.21 | JeffM2501 | Gnurdux, not if you had the goal of making it play the same |
| 22:24.25 | brlcad | yeah, my commits have sucked ever since fiscal year end started approaching |
| 22:24.34 | amcnabb | :) |
| 22:24.34 | JeffM2501 | you move yet? |
| 22:24.41 | brlcad | hells no |
| 22:24.58 | JeffM2501 | wanna job here? |
| 22:25.06 | JeffM2501 | one of our devs is leaving |
| 22:25.11 | brlcad | i put that on the shelf for now until I get all my shtuff together |
| 22:25.15 | brlcad | heh |
| 22:25.35 | JeffM2501 | then you could work with Erroneous |
| 22:26.28 | brlcad | heh, quite tempting though I can't even move down to the city, how'd I manage to move myself across the country? :) |
| 22:26.37 | JeffM2501 | big trucks |
| 22:26.53 | JeffM2501 | or those trains you love so much |
| 22:27.09 | brlcad | heh, just the once cross country |
| 22:27.29 | JeffM2501 | just think of all the beaches we have here |
| 22:27.38 | brlcad | maybe do it again, though it'd have to be first class next time all the way |
| 22:28.30 | JeffM2501 | I just don't want them to hire any more people like James :) |
| 22:29.31 | brlcad | mr gibby would have a hard time keeping me happy /me thinks :) |
| 22:29.32 | JeffM2501 | if you wanted to you could even crew on the presedents racing cat |
| 22:30.06 | JeffM2501 | you'd even be able to work on macintosh code |
| 22:30.26 | JeffM2501 | sorta |
| 22:30.27 | JeffM2501 | ish |
| 22:30.30 | Erroneous | heh |
| 22:30.43 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 22:30.48 | JeffM2501 | well travel we don't do |
| 22:30.55 | JeffM2501 | tho AEs do that a lot |
| 22:31.00 | brlcad | ahh, that's a shame |
| 22:31.04 | Erroneous | not much big iron here either |
| 22:31.06 | brlcad | AE? |
| 22:31.13 | JeffM2501 | Aplication Engeneres |
| 22:31.17 | brlcad | heh |
| 22:31.27 | JeffM2501 | they travel to cusomers and help them get setup |
| 22:31.36 | Erroneous | that has got to be some of the most horrific spellings I've seen yet from you |
| 22:31.38 | JeffM2501 | so they see the machines, set em up, etc.. |
| 22:31.40 | Erroneous | "engeneres"? |
| 22:31.42 | JeffM2501 | I'm tired |
| 22:31.54 | JeffM2501 | that word is my bane |
| 22:32.00 | JeffM2501 | I can NEVER get it right |
| 22:32.05 | brlcad | :) |
| 22:32.34 | Erroneous | engineers...engine + er + s |
| 22:32.52 | JeffM2501 | but that's not how it' sounds |
| 22:33.00 | JeffM2501 | in my head |
| 22:33.23 | Erroneous | "engeneres" looks like you'd have to say it with a mexicano accent :) |
| 22:33.40 | brlcad | i was going to say, that's actually closer to the spanish spelling |
| 22:33.47 | Erroneous | yeah |
| 22:33.49 | JeffM2501 | maybe I'm latin at heart |
| 22:33.56 | JeffM2501 | or maybe thats just gass |
| 22:34.01 | Erroneous | well they do spell stuff easy |
| 22:34.25 | Erroneous | their pronunciation rules are nice |
| 22:34.38 | JeffM2501 | and the bonus upsidedown ! |
| 22:34.38 | brlcad | or slightly dyslexic (there's a form that has to do with recognizing phonetic differences in spelling) |
| 22:34.50 | JeffM2501 | oh I know I am |
| 22:35.43 | JeffM2501 | alphabetising is hard for me as well |
| 22:36.01 | brlcad | yeah, spanish pronunciation is pretty much wysiwyg, not the infinite special cases of ingleesh |
| 22:36.33 | JeffM2501 | I recall reading that out of the 98 or so english gramatical structures, 85 have exceptions. |
| 22:37.02 | delusional_ | english takes exception to that |
| 22:38.23 | brlcad | heh |
| 22:38.26 | amcnabb | :) |
| 22:39.33 | amcnabb | I still don't feel like we've come to a conclusion for bzrobots/Makefile.am |
| 22:39.56 | amcnabb | I would love to refactor stuff in src/bzflag/, but that's a long gradual process. |
| 22:40.23 | amcnabb | I think I'll even do a change or so a week in that direction, actually. |
| 22:41.46 | *** part/#bzflag delusional_ (n=A-Delusi@pool-71-240-64-149.pitt.east.verizon.net) |
| 22:41.59 | amcnabb | What's the best thing to do in the meantime? |
| 22:42.00 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: worse, is that many of the exceptions, also have exceptions |
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| 22:43.12 | Erroneous | amcnabb: whatever you want, as long as brlcad doesn't disagree ;) |
| 22:43.37 | amcnabb | The problem is that I can't think of anything that I'm certain he'd agree with. :) |
| 22:44.10 | Erroneous | then you might have to say what you're going to do, and see if he disagrees :) |
| 22:44.10 | brlcad | Erroneous: hah |
| 22:44.19 | Erroneous | brlcad: what? :) |
| 22:44.24 | brlcad | hehe |
| 22:45.49 | brlcad | amcnabb: how about just do whatever least kludgie thing you can so long as it's a step forward (or at least a step slightly sideways and forward with a note) |
| 22:46.00 | brlcad | pfft |
| 22:46.37 | brlcad | the less that has to be "undone" to make things "better" the better |
| 22:46.55 | amcnabb | brlcad, I think making a library in src/bzflag/, with the intent to move as much stuff out of it as possible, would be the best. But that involves some undoing, I guess. |
| 22:47.05 | amcnabb | I don't know. |
| 22:49.05 | brlcad | go for it |
| 22:49.21 | amcnabb | How about "libRefactorMe.la"? :) |
| 22:49.38 | brlcad | heh |
| 22:50.53 | amcnabb | Well, I have to leave for now. I'll keep on thinking and get back on tonight. |
| 22:51.12 | amcnabb | I think that's the way I'll do it, though, unless there's something better. |
| 22:51.12 | blast007 | cya |
| 22:51.37 | amcnabb | Bye. |
| 22:52.20 | brlcad | should probably name it consistently to the dir it's in like the other libs |
| 22:52.40 | brlcad | nothing intrinsicly wrong with having convenience libs for the binaries that they link against in general |
| 22:52.49 | brlcad | libBZFlag.la, libBZFS.la, etc |
| 22:53.13 | Erroneous | not that all the rest of us don't welcome your exposition :) |
| 22:53.23 | Erroneous | yay double negative |
| 22:53.39 | brlcad | completely valid in spanish ;) |
| 22:53.45 | brlcad | reinforces the negative |
| 22:53.54 | Erroneous | yup, but not in english :) |
| 22:53.58 | brlcad | :) |
| 22:54.07 | Erroneous | and actually it would mean the inverse of what I intended had I said it in spanish |
| 22:54.22 | Erroneous | I was saying that you were welcome to continue expositing |
| 22:56.57 | brlcad | maybe i'll just beat him to the punch |
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| 22:57.07 | Erroneous | I already drank all the punch |
| 22:57.19 | brlcad | mm.. punch |
| 22:57.58 | brlcad | so are you like a 9 to 5er now, or blissing on a 20 hour schedule? :) |
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| 22:58.24 | Erroneous | 8 to 5-ish |
| 22:59.00 | brlcad | tsk tsk, no fun ;) |
| 22:59.05 | Erroneous | heh :) |
| 23:00.59 | Erroneous | ooh |
| 23:01.43 | brlcad | i told them that their hypothesis of beating a good player might be a bit over-ambitious |
| 23:01.46 | Gnurdux | GP/GA? |
| 23:02.19 | Erroneous | hehe |
| 23:02.27 | Erroneous | yeah, it might be |
| 23:02.37 | Erroneous | unless the AI cheats |
| 23:02.41 | brlcad | unless they intend to somehow evolve higher levels of memory and pattern recognition.. which they'd love but probably don't have time to do |
| 23:02.44 | Gnurdux | muhahahaha |
| 23:02.51 | Gnurdux | heh |
| 23:02.57 | Gnurdux | a neural network playing bz... |
| 23:03.04 | Gnurdux | that would be pretty cool |
| 23:03.14 | Erroneous | Gnurdux: that would be the idea |
| 23:03.37 | Gnurdux | you could give it some subtle cheats |
| 23:03.53 | brlcad | er, a NN controlling the primary logic would suck major tank arse |
| 23:04.00 | Erroneous | yup |
| 23:04.02 | Gnurdux | like no shooting oneself |
| 23:04.04 | brlcad | there are way too many variables |
| 23:04.09 | Gnurdux | mm |
| 23:04.20 | brlcad | it'd be useful for basic memory and other pattern stuff though |
| 23:04.35 | brlcad | i'm just curious how well the GP will evolve |
| 23:04.43 | Gnurdux | GP? |
| 23:04.49 | Erroneous | genetic program |
| 23:04.53 | brlcad | i was wondering if there's a way to decouple the simulation loop so they didn't have to run real-time |
| 23:05.09 | Erroneous | not really, we're pretty tied into time |
| 23:05.13 | Gnurdux | well you can make the variables so that its not necessary |
| 23:05.14 | brlcad | i'm thinking "not easily" without screwing with the physics |
| 23:05.18 | Erroneous | you could step through with fixed dt's |
| 23:05.30 | Gnurdux | make tankspeed, shotspeed, gravity, jumpvelocity etc really high |
| 23:05.31 | Erroneous | effectively simulating time |
| 23:05.53 | brlcad | i mean, I don't think the server much cares as it does little tracking |
| 23:05.59 | brlcad | other than the cheat checks |
| 23:06.06 | Erroneous | yeah, disable cheat checks |
| 23:06.07 | brlcad | so if all the clients were accelerated.. "maybe" |
| 23:06.14 | Erroneous | and set all your clients to have the same timescale |
| 23:06.34 | Gnurdux | whats wrong with just fast tankspeeds? |
| 23:06.40 | brlcad | somehow I think our acceleration/velocity computations would blow up |
| 23:06.55 | Erroneous | running faster than realtime would be hard when you approach our math problems |
| 23:07.00 | Erroneous | yeah |
| 23:07.09 | Erroneous | single-precision floats ftl |
| 23:07.49 | Erroneous | on the other hand, it would be an interesting test :) |
| 23:07.50 | brlcad | Gnurdux: it's not that simple when you involve single event actions "shoot, move forward one 'unit', turn 'N' degrees" etc |
| 23:07.53 | Erroneous | see what dies first |
| 23:08.49 | brlcad | yeah, though if it actually does mildly evolve, could just as easily toss it onto a .. "few" .. nodes so that running non-realtime wouldn't be such an issue |
| 23:09.37 | Erroneous | hehe |
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