| 00:25.16 | spldart | Any ideas how I could be 'killed myself'd' when I didn't have a shot in play??? |
| 00:25.30 | spldart | And carrying no flag |
| 00:25.36 | JeffM2501 | magic |
| 00:25.42 | a_meteorite | goofy tanks |
| 00:25.43 | JeffM2501 | fay magic |
| 00:25.45 | Bz_Win | Errr, some extreme sys lag? |
| 00:25.55 | JeffM2501 | dark fay magic |
| 00:26.34 | Bz_Win | OH, of course, why didn't he think of that before? :\ |
| 00:26.54 | JeffM2501 | never underestimate the elder races |
| 00:27.16 | JeffM2501 | spldart, did it say how you killed yourslef? |
| 00:27.27 | JeffM2501 | or maybe hit a pydriver |
| 00:27.43 | JeffM2501 | or piss off the great spirt of the forrest? |
| 00:27.49 | Bz_Win | ... |
| 00:28.17 | Bz_Win | He said earlier: 'I shot myself' |
| 00:28.44 | a_meteorite | bzflag didn't want you to get a lot of points, so it has turned into a mutant suicidal tanks |
| 00:28.46 | a_meteorite | *tank |
| 00:28.48 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 00:29.01 | JeffM2501 | could be a phydriv with that message |
| 00:29.07 | a_meteorite | heh |
| 00:29.16 | a_meteorite | imho, that's plain wrong :) |
| 00:29.38 | Bz_Win | I didn't think silver even had phydrv.. |
| 00:30.47 | spldart | lagstats were good on me anywho |
| 00:30.59 | JeffM2501 | dont' mean anything ;) |
| 00:31.04 | JeffM2501 | dosn't give the instant |
| 00:31.10 | spldart | said shot myself and in chat spldart shot himself |
| 00:31.16 | JeffM2501 | wired |
| 00:31.28 | JeffM2501 | j00 b33n h4X0rd |
| 00:31.39 | spldart | but since I hadn't taken a shot inside the life of a shot by at least double I was totally confuzzled |
| 00:31.42 | spldart | LOLOL |
| 00:32.27 | spldart | 20m3 7331 b@27@rd #@x04ed m3 |
| 00:32.38 | a_meteorite | eek |
| 00:34.27 | a_meteorite | 54\/3 /\/\3 f|-0/\/\ y0|_||r 1337/\/355 |
| 00:34.29 | spldart | twas the tweirdest t_thwang |
| 00:34.35 | JeffM2501 | Bz_Win, you take those pictures? |
| 00:34.39 | spldart | lmao |
| 00:35.15 | a_meteorite | can I ask one quick question unrelated to bz? :) |
| 00:35.48 | a_meteorite | in chemistry, you have bunsen burners that burn methane. well, methane releases water and carbon dioxide. I'm assuming the water evaporates.. right? |
| 00:36.09 | a_meteorite | I couldn't seem to find the answer after an hour of googling |
| 00:36.12 | JeffM2501 | it is vapor at that temp |
| 00:36.22 | a_meteorite | I figured so :) |
| 00:36.24 | a_meteorite | thanks |
| 00:36.41 | spldart | joo a4e humidifiying teh 400m |
| 00:36.50 | a_meteorite | :\ |
| 00:36.52 | spldart | 8-x |
| 00:47.54 | spldart | lmao... Teh kids are getting reverse psycology on me! LOLOL |
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| 00:51.23 | CIA-6 | opencombat: 03jeffm2501 * 10GPx01/admin/auth/src/gpxauth.cpp: get auth to start up some net conections |
| 00:52.25 | Bz_Win | ohh, cool, /me just found a concrete texture brush |
| 00:52.35 | Bz_Win | Forgot I hd installed those :P |
| 00:57.09 | purple_cow | why would you care about video cards in a server? |
| 00:57.13 | nick125_lappy | purple_cow: its a joke |
| 00:57.16 | nick125_lappy | http://servers.aplus.net/standardamd.html |
| 00:57.27 | nick125_lappy | "PCIe video card" |
| 00:57.38 | purple_cow | hah, in a colo? |
| 00:57.51 | nick125_lappy | thats a dedi ^^ |
| 00:58.06 | nick125_lappy | my friend is doing the call |
| 00:58.12 | nick125_lappy | he had to spell out FSB to them |
| 01:02.43 | blast007 | the Apple Xserve has an ATI X1300, but that has a purpose since you could actually use it...in a colo/dedi, I can't see a reason why it matters :) |
| 01:02.59 | *** join/#bzflag Ice (i=1893805e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/session) |
| 01:03.08 | nick125_lappy | there isn't a reason for it.. |
| 01:03.12 | nick125_lappy | its funny |
| 01:03.22 | nick125_lappy | my friend is confusing the heck out of these people |
| 01:03.53 | Ice | does any1 know where bzgirl is? |
| 01:04.31 | trepan | she's on vacation from AOL support, iirc |
| 01:05.19 | blast007 | :) |
| 01:05.27 | spldart | heh. it's funny when talking about servers/ I think /workstation and want all the vid card I can get :) |
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| 01:07.26 | Bz_Win | Stop harassing the aliens, i mean tech support |
| 01:07.37 | spldart | lol |
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| 01:15.23 | nick125_lappy | lol |
| 01:16.40 | spldart | http://spldart.opencombat.net:92/aliens.wav |
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| 01:17.23 | spldart | Wife and my eldest our downloading hardcore right now but it's a small file and funny to the tech support comment methinks :-p |
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| 01:17.50 | nick125_lappy | whats another crappy web hsoting company? |
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| 11:14.47 | Skeeve | Hi there! IIRC correctly there is a way to tell my bzflag client my geographic location. How can I do that? |
| 11:19.35 | CBG | "Dear BZFlag, I live in ... Lots of love, Skeeve." |
| 11:22.15 | PuMpErNiCkLe | Use the -latitude and -longitude options. |
| 11:24.42 | ruskie | lol |
| 11:26.08 | CBG | My method is much more personal. ;) |
| 11:26.37 | ruskie | I think I'll go play some more... |
| 11:26.52 | ruskie | it's getting to easy to get 100 kills and less deaths... |
| 11:55.16 | spldart | Hi. My name is spl and I live at -set _latitude 29.6 -set _longitude 95.6 and I'm a Scorpio... What's your sign bzflag 8-0 |
| 11:56.07 | Skeeve | Dear IRC! My name is Skeeve and I think here are too many jokers around ;-) |
| 11:56.34 | spldart | *group* Hi Skeeve and welcome to the jokers support group |
| 11:58.54 | Skeeve | BTW: I'm Archer |
| 11:59.11 | Skeeve | My wife is Scorpio ;-) |
| 11:59.26 | Skeeve | But Archers don't believe in signs |
| 12:00.37 | spldart | My wife is a scorpio too and the Lawrences don't believe in signs either :) |
| 12:03.26 | Skeeve | What's a "Lawrence"? |
| 12:04.53 | spldart | It's a family name |
| 12:04.56 | spldart | heading to work now |
| 12:04.57 | spldart | bbl |
| 12:05.04 | Skeeve | ARGH ;-) |
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| 12:09.33 | Ice | hello |
| 12:09.51 | Skeeve | Moin |
| 12:11.38 | PuMpErNiCkLe | yo |
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| 12:48.47 | ToughShooter | brlcad: ping |
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| 16:21.37 | ToughShooter | JeffM2501: ping |
| 16:21.42 | JeffM2501 | sup |
| 16:21.59 | ToughShooter | The wall-through thingy should be fixed, correct? |
| 16:22.16 | ToughShooter | That is what I was told.. |
| 16:22.26 | ToughShooter | Via adding that pause thingy |
| 16:22.33 | JeffM2501 | I don't think the simulation has been changed |
| 16:22.41 | JeffM2501 | pause was only one way to do it |
| 16:23.08 | JeffM2501 | the pause on screenshot takes care of some of it |
| 16:23.10 | JeffM2501 | but not all |
| 16:23.13 | ToughShooter | Well, I can still drive through with an unmodified standard client |
| 16:23.19 | JeffM2501 | the best way to fix it is make the client do a better sim |
| 16:23.23 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 16:23.25 | JeffM2501 | it wasn't fixed |
| 16:23.36 | JeffM2501 | a change was made to try and minimise it |
| 16:23.44 | ToughShooter | We need a fix for that or I can't activate my height check |
| 16:23.49 | JeffM2501 | with what we could do with out changing client |
| 16:23.56 | JeffM2501 | yeah, we do need to fix it |
| 16:23.57 | ToughShooter | (currently the height check in cvs is _disabled_) |
| 16:24.01 | JeffM2501 | it can't be fixed in 2.0 |
| 16:24.24 | ToughShooter | orange can't drive through buildings.. |
| 16:24.35 | ToughShooter | Is it platform dependend? |
| 16:24.36 | JeffM2501 | the bug is in the client sim code |
| 16:24.45 | JeffM2501 | it can be fps dependent ;) |
| 16:24.49 | JeffM2501 | and CPU dependcent |
| 16:25.03 | ToughShooter | Well, he had 50, I had 59 |
| 16:25.18 | ToughShooter | my CPU is a PPC970@2GHZ |
| 16:25.24 | JeffM2501 | it can also depend on how long it takes to save a screenshot |
| 16:25.36 | JeffM2501 | but no, it was not 100% fixed |
| 16:25.49 | ToughShooter | Hmm, I have a real hard drive (3,5") |
| 16:26.00 | ToughShooter | but it takes 1 second |
| 16:26.31 | JeffM2501 | the specifics don't mater man |
| 16:26.36 | JeffM2501 | don't think so low level |
| 16:26.53 | JeffM2501 | it can and will happen in 2.0.x |
| 16:26.55 | ToughShooter | Could it be an #ifdef in bz? |
| 16:27.03 | JeffM2501 | you can't change old clients |
| 16:27.05 | JeffM2501 | so it dosn't matter |
| 16:27.07 | ToughShooter | Causing code on some platforms being slower? |
| 16:27.18 | ToughShooter | I'm not concerned about the old ones |
| 16:27.19 | JeffM2501 | dude, you don't get it |
| 16:27.23 | JeffM2501 | it CAN happen |
| 16:27.27 | ToughShooter | I want the new ones being clean |
| 16:27.30 | JeffM2501 | it all depends on how it just times out with the sim code |
| 16:27.46 | JeffM2501 | what do you mean by "new ones?" |
| 16:27.51 | ToughShooter | 2.2 |
| 16:28.06 | JeffM2501 | then fix the colision code so that it never lets you go thru a wall on a lag spike |
| 16:28.11 | JeffM2501 | that's where the bug IS |
| 16:28.33 | JeffM2501 | it's needs smarter segmenting |
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| 16:28.37 | ToughShooter | The collision code is rather complicated :/ |
| 16:28.41 | JeffM2501 | so |
| 16:28.45 | JeffM2501 | that's still where the bug is |
| 16:28.50 | JeffM2501 | and that is where it must be fixed |
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| 16:29.14 | JeffM2501 | if your code needs that fixed, then ether you have to fix it, or you have to let your code stay off untill somone else fixes it |
| 16:29.18 | JeffM2501 | those are the only options. |
| 16:29.33 | ToughShooter | Well, the check is disabled right now |
| 16:29.49 | JeffM2501 | then it comes down to, are you willing to fix the bug in the colision code? |
| 16:29.53 | ToughShooter | That comes clear when one looks into its logic |
| 16:30.19 | ToughShooter | I would be willing to do it but my resources are limited |
| 16:30.27 | Chestal | well, even when the collision 'bug' is fixed in the client, the movement will look fishy when the client just goes to deep sleep for such a long time |
| 16:30.38 | ToughShooter | meaning I do my best but it could take ages |
| 16:30.51 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, well somethign has to be done |
| 16:30.51 | Chestal | rest of world would see position behind wall, then client wakes up, sends update, corects pos |
| 16:31.13 | Chestal | so, server or receiving client would have to do tank/building collision checks |
| 16:31.29 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, then your other options are to get somone else to do it, or wait. |
| 16:31.37 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, well I'm all for server :) |
| 16:31.50 | Chestal | that would put a lot of stress on the server |
| 16:31.58 | Chestal | much much more than client/shot checks I assume |
| 16:32.02 | ToughShooter | Well, why does the client still drive forward? That's the part of the problem I don't understand |
| 16:32.08 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, not much |
| 16:32.22 | JeffM2501 | it'd be more then now sure |
| 16:32.26 | ToughShooter | even when there is no wall it seems like he's driving forward while screenshot |
| 16:32.30 | JeffM2501 | but it's the same stuff client does |
| 16:32.33 | Chestal | shot/tank is cheap, tank/building is much harder |
| 16:32.35 | JeffM2501 | and client spends most of it's tiem drawing |
| 16:32.46 | Chestal | yes, but server would have to do it for n clients, not only for one |
| 16:32.49 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, no mater what we have to do it server side to prevent cheats |
| 16:32.59 | trepan | Chestal: compare to other games, it's a joke |
| 16:33.02 | JeffM2501 | it is still prety cheap |
| 16:33.24 | JeffM2501 | unless your running on like a P90 for the server, it'll be fine |
| 16:33.29 | Chestal | still, sevrer load would go up by a factor of 10 or 100 I assume. Just mentioning that this particular case can not be fixed in client |
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| 16:33.47 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, but there are so many other cases where we need the server |
| 16:33.58 | trepan | Chestal: heh, regex filtering prolly hits it harder |
| 16:34.07 | JeffM2501 | and as trepan says, look at any other real network game |
| 16:34.09 | Chestal | trepan: is anyone using that? :-) |
| 16:34.14 | JeffM2501 | a number of servers do |
| 16:34.26 | trepan | the octree does a lot of the work |
| 16:35.12 | Chestal | anywy, when the client does not react "fast enough", the client is misbehaving. This is just a softer case of the extreme case 'nr' |
| 16:36.16 | trepan | not really, it's poor physics |
| 16:37.14 | Chestal | that's too, but fixing the physics in the client will only solve part of the problem as I pointed out |
| 16:37.49 | Chestal | it will still looked messed up to the other players |
| 16:38.00 | trepan | heh, you wont get me to say that the protocol is proper either, but the root of this problem is the physics |
| 16:38.02 | Chestal | just like it does when a player is [nr] or lags extremely |
| 16:38.05 | JeffM2501 | that's one reason we pause them before we know there is going to be a long break |
| 16:38.21 | trepan | even if you fixed the protocol, it'd still be busted |
| 16:38.28 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 16:38.33 | JeffM2501 | both need to be redone |
| 16:39.09 | JeffM2501 | but so far nobody is willing to do that |
| 16:43.31 | JeffM2501 | how is it coming along? |
| 16:44.09 | trepan | they gave me svn access, so i'm poking around a bit more |
| 16:44.17 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 16:44.29 | trepan | fairly active project, relatively speaking |
| 16:44.40 | JeffM2501 | what are they using for terrain? |
| 16:44.46 | trepan | custom |
| 16:44.51 | JeffM2501 | it looked a bit "blocky" in the shots I saw |
| 16:45.08 | trepan | they have essentially no material management |
| 16:45.21 | JeffM2501 | I asume you have plans for that then |
| 16:45.51 | trepan | depends on the shadowbuffer size ... might be nice to try VSM |
| 16:46.19 | trepan | na, i don't have enough typing in me to do the work |
| 16:46.27 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 16:46.45 | JeffM2501 | it is all about the peewee rush tho isn't it :) |
| 16:46.53 | JeffM2501 | or a bunch of brawlers |
| 16:47.15 | spldart | In the concept of server side game logic to help with the cheat issue.... You mention that the increase cpu usage would probably be non-issue.. Would that apply to a busy server as well? |
| 16:47.27 | trepan | or krogoths, they've added some good stuff (shields, etc...) |
| 16:47.33 | JeffM2501 | it'll go up some yes, but it shold not be unreasonable |
| 16:47.47 | JeffM2501 | and yes the more activity the more sim the server has to do |
| 16:47.49 | JeffM2501 | just like your client |
| 16:48.01 | JeffM2501 | just like quake, and UT, and most other fast shooters |
| 16:49.12 | spldart | Just wondering... many like me are using an old rig to do game and other server duty while they only play on much more modern rigs. Was wondering if in the future I host a 2.2 server and actually got busy if a k6-2 500 would get mired down. I know that's prolly hard to pin down at this though :) |
| 16:49.25 | JeffM2501 | how much CPU you using now? |
| 16:49.56 | spldart | ^K6-2 500^ for server duties |
| 16:50.08 | JeffM2501 | oh I don't think it'll bog down |
| 16:50.15 | JeffM2501 | it will use more then it does not |
| 16:50.17 | JeffM2501 | now |
| 16:50.24 | JeffM2501 | it dosn't have to draw, so it's just simple sim |
| 16:50.30 | spldart | But all client machines are k7's in the 2 to 2.5 gig range |
| 16:50.32 | spldart | kew |
| 16:50.37 | JeffM2501 | as trepan says the octree will help keep the number of compares to a min |
| 16:50.55 | JeffM2501 | it's also not going to be doing the compares at a framerate type speed |
| 16:51.03 | JeffM2501 | no 100 times a second or stuff like that |
| 16:51.07 | *** join/#bzflag wizart (n=wizart@dslb-084-058-149-248.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:51.09 | JeffM2501 | it dosn't need to |
| 16:51.25 | spldart | thanks for the feedback :) |
| 16:51.38 | JeffM2501 | it would be similar to running a couple headless clients |
| 16:51.49 | JeffM2501 | but it needs to be tested |
| 16:51.51 | JeffM2501 | cus I could be wrong |
| 16:51.55 | JeffM2501 | I don't think I am, but I could be |
| 16:52.09 | JeffM2501 | but we can't test it till somone does it |
| 16:52.16 | JBdiGriz | People want to do 50 clients with 100 shots |
| 16:52.17 | spldart | u r usually right so I'm reassured... |
| 16:52.42 | trepan | JBdiGriz: on a vic20 |
| 16:52.45 | JeffM2501 | it'll be interesting to see how much cpu that takes |
| 16:52.53 | JeffM2501 | I don't think it'll be that bad |
| 16:52.53 | spldart | I know I can toast my server on the lan with like 75 bots on 2.0 hehe |
| 16:52.55 | JBdiGriz | Of course, the collision detection on that should be easy, just blow everything up. :D |
| 16:53.04 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 16:53.11 | JeffM2501 | just explode all tanks every 50 seconds |
| 16:53.23 | spldart | But bandwidth has allowed me to max support only 12 on a good day anywho so non issue |
| 16:53.39 | JeffM2501 | spldart, exactly, you'll probably run outa bandwith before you do CPU |
| 16:53.52 | spldart | kew |
| 16:54.35 | spldart | but I would for this ;) |
| 16:54.40 | JeffM2501 | if it dosn't do much else cpu intensive you should be fine running a couple servers on that |
| 16:54.53 | JeffM2501 | I'm using my eperience running other games that use server side logic |
| 16:55.03 | JeffM2501 | they generaly take some but not a lot of CPU |
| 16:55.08 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@ppp-67-126-240-44.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 16:55.21 | JeffM2501 | quake JUST runs a the gamestate on the server |
| 16:55.34 | spldart | Heh.... I finally through away my 486, and 586 cpu's up to about 300 mhz |
| 16:55.45 | JeffM2501 | we had a couple of those running with 16 players each on some older P3s |
| 16:56.00 | trepan | the rollback mechanism ways in fairly heavily (assuming you go that way) |
| 16:56.26 | JeffM2501 | I was just talking about standard quake and UT stuff |
| 16:56.32 | JeffM2501 | not that paper you sent me |
| 16:56.53 | trepan | s/ways/weighs ... |
| 16:56.56 | JeffM2501 | I'm still having troble grocking all of that paper |
| 16:57.10 | trepan | the standard is to use rollbacks |
| 16:57.20 | JeffM2501 | ahh ok |
| 16:57.29 | JeffM2501 | well still those servers use squat for CPU |
| 16:57.42 | trepan | need them for state consistency, unless you do a lot of ditching |
| 16:57.50 | JeffM2501 | thats why those game hosting companys can run a ton of them on a server |
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| 17:09.33 | brlcad | ToughShooter: pong |
| 17:12.19 | ToughShooter | brlcad: I'm thinking about activating the height check change.. |
| 17:12.20 | ToughShooter | How many people would I need to test? |
| 17:14.16 | ToughShooter | Right now it is not enabled, a 2 line change would do it |
| 17:15.06 | JeffM2501 | if it's just 2.1, turn it on |
| 17:15.10 | brlcad | btw the warping "bug" wasn't fully fixed, isn't fully fixable without shooting some rays or otherwise finding a better way to halt the player's tank when it should be halted |
| 17:15.12 | JeffM2501 | it's not like anyone plays real games with it |
| 17:15.23 | JeffM2501 | and if people do they will test ;) |
| 17:15.42 | brlcad | it does now prevent unlimited warping, which was by far the biggest problem, but thin-walled warping is still feasible |
| 17:16.10 | brlcad | basically whatever you can induce with a single action (single screenshot, for example) |
| 17:18.21 | brlcad | the NR logic takes over as the client is unresponsive, which doesn't (correctly) perform collision detection |
| 17:18.34 | brlcad | you could get the same warping by unpluggin your net cable for a sec probably |
| 17:18.50 | ToughShooter | NR tanks may should just not move, rather being put in obs team |
| 17:19.19 | brlcad | you can't just zero out the tank velocity, or it because possible to abuse screenshotting/pausing in other ways |
| 17:19.49 | JeffM2501 | or fix the physics sim to not let you warp thru stuff |
| 17:19.55 | ToughShooter | yes, in air that would be bad |
| 17:21.06 | brlcad | the problem is that the collision checks are (for some reason) not checking correctly while tank is effectively NR -- the time delta elapsed is enormous which projects the tank much farther and makes it possible to skip certain checks/collisions |
| 17:21.19 | brlcad | this holds for *any* tank movement |
| 17:21.51 | JeffM2501 | shoudn't it be simple enough to segment that check into tank sized chunks |
| 17:21.55 | ToughShooter | Funny thing is that it works for bullets, though ;) |
| 17:21.56 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 17:22.08 | brlcad | ToughShooter: my comments yesterday and the day before weren't to not enable your height check -- just to be aware that there very likely may be problems with it and you'll have to keep an eye on it |
| 17:22.15 | JeffM2501 | shots have each client do there own sim on them |
| 17:22.33 | brlcad | bullets are completely different |
| 17:22.44 | JeffM2501 | they dont' send out there own updates |
| 17:22.54 | JeffM2501 | there shot strat is also precomputed |
| 17:23.00 | ToughShooter | I know, but one part of code takes care of it and another part doesn't. That seems funny |
| 17:23.13 | brlcad | i think bullets do shoot a ray too iirc? |
| 17:24.02 | JeffM2501 | I think they do as well |
| 17:24.02 | brlcad | ToughShooter: the only thing those two have in common (code-wise) is that they're both "in" the world, even if conceptually they're both objects moving in 3-space |
| 17:24.37 | brlcad | tanks and shots don't inherit from some base movingobject class iirc |
| 17:25.47 | brlcad | (not that you'd want them to) |
| 17:25.47 | JeffM2501 | they also move and behave in totaly difrent manerws |
| 17:25.47 | JeffM2501 | shots arn't driven by players |
| 17:25.47 | JeffM2501 | after they are fired |
| 17:25.47 | JeffM2501 | they always move in a consitent way |
| 17:25.47 | JeffM2501 | so they can be handled totaly difrently |
| 17:25.58 | JeffM2501 | they don't do update mesages, and each client has it's own copy of the shot that it simulates |
| 17:26.01 | ToughShooter | While that is true one would think both would work the same way, meaning projecting a bullet path and projecting where the wall is |
| 17:26.08 | JeffM2501 | tanks can't be simulated like that becaus they are driven by humans |
| 17:26.39 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, they do, but when your client pauses, his shots are simed by the other clients, and they don't get a lag spike |
| 17:26.41 | ToughShooter | Probably bz doesn't need to do screenies :/ |
| 17:26.53 | ToughShooter | There are OS functions that work pretty fast |
| 17:26.55 | JeffM2501 | after the lag spike, the laged client dosn't tell us where his shots are |
| 17:27.06 | JeffM2501 | so it's a difrent animal then a tank |
| 17:27.23 | ToughShooter | Though bz "overwrites" the keys for those |
| 17:27.34 | JeffM2501 | screenshot isn't the problem |
| 17:27.45 | JeffM2501 | as brlcad said, unplugin the net cable can do the same thing |
| 17:27.51 | ToughShooter | it's only a symptom of the cause |
| 17:27.55 | JeffM2501 | screenshot is just an easy way to get a spike |
| 17:27.58 | JeffM2501 | there are many many others |
| 17:28.11 | JeffM2501 | so don't focus on the screenshot aspect too much |
| 17:29.15 | ToughShooter | Theoretically the server should validate all the moves anyway, so letting the server decide would get my vote |
| 17:29.26 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 17:29.34 | JeffM2501 | but the client side has to simulate the same as the server |
| 17:29.47 | JeffM2501 | so that standard clients don't get off track too well |
| 17:29.51 | JeffM2501 | so you have to have good code on both sides |
| 17:30.26 | JeffM2501 | you want the server to corect the client as few times as possible |
| 17:30.39 | ToughShooter | Well, you don't need to but having good code on both sides would clearly be better |
| 17:30.55 | JeffM2501 | if you don't then clients will jump around |
| 17:31.00 | JeffM2501 | as the server constantly fixes them |
| 17:31.04 | JeffM2501 | that makes your game a joke |
| 17:31.07 | JeffM2501 | so yes, you NEED it |
| 17:31.50 | ToughShooter | It's not like people are constantly creating local lag ;) |
| 17:31.56 | JeffM2501 | some are |
| 17:32.11 | JeffM2501 | but still, if you can do it corectly on the server, you can do it corectly on the client |
| 17:32.18 | *** join/#bzflag Birdie (n=Birdie__@d51A464DA.access.telenet.be) |
| 17:32.21 | JeffM2501 | don't build in problems |
| 17:32.39 | JeffM2501 | wireless networks tend to have very unstable lag paterns |
| 17:32.42 | JeffM2501 | they get spikes |
| 17:32.49 | JeffM2501 | usualy when somone fires up a mircorwave |
| 17:33.01 | JeffM2501 | so it happens more often then you think |
| 17:33.14 | ToughShooter | BT also interferes with WLAN I have experienced |
| 17:33.25 | JeffM2501 | there are many ways |
| 17:33.42 | JeffM2501 | there is no reason to leave bad code on the client, if you have good code on the server |
| 17:33.46 | JeffM2501 | it's as simple as that |
| 17:33.48 | spldart | I HATE wireless networks...for the most part |
| 17:33.56 | ToughShooter | and I've seen people using WLAN playing..it looked partly rather bad |
| 17:34.14 | JeffM2501 | exactly, you want the server corecting them all over the place? |
| 17:34.31 | JeffM2501 | you have to make there local colision handle the lag spike the same way |
| 17:34.37 | JeffM2501 | then there would be no corection |
| 17:34.44 | JeffM2501 | a corection sould be a rare thing |
| 17:34.54 | ToughShooter | ok ok |
| 17:35.28 | JeffM2501 | just because some of the code scares you, dont' mean it should not be changed :) |
| 17:37.39 | JBdiGriz | Of course, we could warp the client to where we think they should be. That would encourage people to play on reasonable networks. |
| 17:40.26 | JeffM2501 | just make it turn based |
| 17:40.30 | JeffM2501 | that solves all the problems |
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| 17:41.31 | brlcad | wlan playing isn't inherintly bad, just easy to be bad or interferred with |
| 17:42.02 | brlcad | i can play just fine over mine as I'm sure others can, you just notice the bad ones :) |
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| 17:43.03 | brlcad | my microwave is directly in the path between laptop and router, doesn't interfere enough |
| 17:43.08 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 17:43.20 | JeffM2501 | I thin it depends on the quality of the items |
| 17:43.25 | brlcad | yeah |
| 17:44.47 | brlcad | lots of people have cheap leaky microwaves and "bargain bin" routers, then wonder why stuff doesn't work |
| 17:45.08 | JeffM2501 | need more tin foil |
| 17:45.20 | spldart | Those are also the kind of people who wonder why a Jolly Roger is printed on their network printer at 2 am |
| 17:46.45 | brlcad | there is a thing such as quality control, 3com sells a $300 NIC and a $30 NIC.. both work "just fine" for most users but if you want reliability for all situations, you don't buy one of those |
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| 17:53.05 | JeffM2501 | well if you want reiablity for all situations, then you work for the government |
| 17:53.38 | JeffM2501 | and if you work for the government, you don't have a good budget |
| 17:53.38 | JeffM2501 | so you get the 30$ one |
| 17:53.39 | purple_cow | eh |
| 17:53.39 | JeffM2501 | so that your CEO can skim some more off the top |
| 17:53.48 | purple_cow | brlcad doesn't seem to have budget problems, if i remember his monitor setup correctly |
| 17:53.53 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 17:54.00 | JeffM2501 | maybe he's the one skimmin |
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| 17:54.02 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 17:54.17 | purple_cow | well, i think there's a difference between "government" and "military" |
| 17:54.28 | Theme97 | How about adding a lag offset feature for replays, where it watches the lag stats and offsets the tanks' positions based on their lag by showing where that tank went <X> milliseconds ahead instead of where it appears to be... unless lagstats doesn't work that way? |
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| 18:00.29 | brlcad | heh, there isn't a difference on paper, but there is very much a practical difference when it comes to flexibility and requirements and behavior ;) |
| 18:00.39 | brlcad | and actually, I was referring to home use :) |
| 18:00.39 | JeffM2501 | Theme97, cus the recording is already lag offset for the lag each player had to the server |
| 18:00.46 | JeffM2501 | that lag is alrady burned into the recording |
| 18:02.36 | brlcad | especially in the networking arena, I hate dealing with flaky network crap at home, finding that cheapo card can't do jumbograms or wigs out if a cell phone rings would make me unhappy |
| 18:03.33 | *** join/#bzflag |zongo| (n=zongo@int-34-67.mobile.unibas.ch) |
| 18:07.55 | L4m3r | I hate dealing with crappy hardware in general |
| 18:08.24 | JeffM2501 | ok mr. "I put bondo on my cases" :) |
| 18:08.35 | L4m3r | "what brand is your mobo?" "PC Chips" "Congratulations, you've got a $30 doorstop!" |
| 18:08.57 | L4m3r | Bondo rules. |
| 18:09.05 | JeffM2501 | quality cases don't need no bondo ;) |
| 18:09.14 | L4m3r | yes they do ;) |
| 18:09.29 | L4m3r | my case is quality, too... albeit a bit old |
| 18:09.30 | JeffM2501 | if it needed bondo it would have come with bondo |
| 18:10.06 | L4m3r | it's all aesthetic anyway |
| 18:10.31 | L4m3r | you can always leave a hole, or cover it with duct tape |
| 18:10.55 | JeffM2501 | yeah.. duct tape.. the true marque of quality |
| 18:11.10 | L4m3r | hey, duct tape is at least reliable |
| 18:11.52 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 18:11.52 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org/ || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp || paste to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || CVS HEAD is 2.1 UNSTABLE, use for new commits |
| 18:11.52 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 18:12.37 | L4m3r | duct tape and a fan swap dropped temps 15 C in my server :P |
| 18:13.13 | L4m3r | lol |
| 18:13.41 | L4m3r | brlcad: my favorite cheapass hardware failure was the emachine |
| 18:14.07 | L4m3r | we got 5 years out of it, and then both ps/2 ports died. |
| 18:14.29 | L4m3r | "no keyboard detected; press F1 to continue" ... that was the end of that |
| 18:15.14 | ToughShooter | I love that message :) |
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| 18:15.28 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 18:16.03 | L4m3r | I always thought it was kind of sad that you need a soldering iron to get a decent lifespan out of some products |
| 18:17.16 | L4m3r | since, you know, grandma is going to be able to re-solder the power lead in her emachine's monitor when it dies |
| 18:18.37 | spldart | Heh.. I regularly use duct tape, cardboard and well placed fans in PC's to lower temps alot... You got to think like the air current... without becoming an airhead |
| 18:20.15 | JeffM2501 | no she'll just replace it for 1/2 the cost |
| 18:20.19 | JeffM2501 | she dosn't care |
| 18:21.03 | L4m3r | well, yeah, but that gets annoying when something like that only lasts for a year |
| 18:21.50 | JeffM2501 | old people are use to crap breaking :) |
| 18:21.55 | JeffM2501 | like toasters and blenders |
| 18:22.11 | JeffM2501 | buy cheap, get cheap, it's not a new concept with comptuers ;) |
| 18:22.51 | L4m3r | yeah, but slow AND unreliable? that's adding insult to injury |
| 18:23.06 | JeffM2501 | dude.. yugos :) |
| 18:23.14 | JeffM2501 | it's not a new concept |
| 18:23.24 | L4m3r | lol |
| 18:24.08 | JeffM2501 | sometimes you just don't care about qualtiy |
| 18:24.17 | JeffM2501 | if somonething isn't going to be used much |
| 18:24.28 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 18:24.30 | JeffM2501 | grandma don't need no Core 2 to check her mail |
| 18:24.30 | bryjen | sometimes crap is all you can afford ;) |
| 18:24.36 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 18:24.50 | JeffM2501 | and crap that does something is better then no crap and not doing anything |
| 18:25.02 | L4m3r | but it doesn't save you as much if you have to buy the crap over and over |
| 18:25.13 | JeffM2501 | thats only an if |
| 18:25.25 | JeffM2501 | upgrade cycle on computers is very short |
| 18:25.44 | JeffM2501 | it's ver posible to get a cheap new crap speed update in the lifetime of the last crap cycle |
| 18:26.16 | JeffM2501 | people just use the same machien for 5 years |
| 18:26.21 | JeffM2501 | cus the software keeps wanting more |
| 18:26.43 | spldart | Curse that software |
| 18:26.54 | JeffM2501 | grandma ain't gonna watch her blue ray "my fair lady" on her 5 year old dell |
| 18:27.06 | JeffM2501 | even if it's a quality dell |
| 18:27.15 | JeffM2501 | that cost her 2 grand |
| 18:27.35 | JeffM2501 | if your an upgrader it does save you in the long run |
| 18:27.46 | JeffM2501 | but if your an upgrader you understand what your geting for quality |
| 18:28.08 | JeffM2501 | if not, it may be cheaper/easyer for you to just get a new machine for 300$ every 2 years |
| 18:28.26 | JeffM2501 | keeps you decently upgraded, and it's just freaking easy |
| 18:28.27 | L4m3r | it's no so much about upgrading... computers shouldn't force you to upgrade by dying prematurely :P |
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| 18:28.41 | JeffM2501 | same for blenders |
| 18:28.43 | JeffM2501 | and lawnmowers |
| 18:28.47 | JeffM2501 | cheap is cheap |
| 18:29.12 | spldart | :-x.... I just welded a patch panel on my rusted through lawnmower |
| 18:29.19 | L4m3r | lol |
| 18:29.23 | L4m3r | nice. |
| 18:29.44 | L4m3r | hopefully we'll have my uncle's mig welder set up by the end of the year |
| 18:29.47 | spldart | spray painted it camo green when I was finished too :p |
| 18:29.56 | L4m3r | yay! :D |
| 18:30.06 | spldart | I used a nasty stick welder with some light grade sticks |
| 18:30.21 | L4m3r | yeesh. on sheet metal? |
| 18:30.24 | spldart | yep |
| 18:30.37 | L4m3r | I can do pipe with a stick welder, but not sheet |
| 18:30.59 | spldart | did a dozen little welds and called it good enough.. I could jump on it anyway :) |
| 18:30.59 | L4m3r | better off with gas for sheet... even brazing, quick and easy |
| 18:31.25 | spldart | I cut the scrap of metal for the patch from an old computer case |
| 18:31.46 | L4m3r | lol. |
| 18:31.47 | spldart | funny how it fits in the computer upgrades and buying cheap conversation |
| 18:32.02 | spldart | LMAO |
| 18:32.26 | spldart | I wanted one more season before I by another cheap mower ;) |
| 18:32.52 | L4m3r | how much is a good mower? |
| 18:32.53 | spldart | had to pull the head to free a stuck valve last season... I just wont let the cheap thing die :( |
| 18:33.45 | L4m3r | ours was $450 or so, I think... seems pretty goof |
| 18:33.48 | L4m3r | good* |
| 18:34.03 | spldart | 450 is very good for a 'push' mower |
| 18:34.09 | L4m3r | roll it over thick weeds and it'll annihilate them, good enough for me |
| 18:34.11 | spldart | 200 is cheap push mower |
| 18:34.24 | L4m3r | yeah, it's a push mower |
| 18:34.32 | L4m3r | yard is too small for a ride-on |
| 18:34.57 | L4m3r | no one in LA uses ride-on mowers, except schools, city, etc |
| 18:36.09 | spldart | :) |
| 18:36.44 | L4m3r | we also have the weedwacker of doom (death-whacker) |
| 18:36.51 | *** join/#bzflag redsoxfan90 (n=redsoxfa@c-66-30-227-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 18:37.07 | L4m3r | multiple attachments, one of which is a tri-point metal blade |
| 18:37.11 | redsoxfan90 | i have a qustion |
| 18:37.13 | spldart | OMG the caps coming out of this machine are SCARING me |
| 18:38.15 | redsoxfan90 | i have linux ubuntu on a ati graphic driver when i play bzflag i have a delay in my mouse when i move up it takes like a second so when i move backward its all delayed i get plenty of fps... |
| 18:39.09 | spldart | shots delayed?... Just curious |
| 18:39.29 | redsoxfan90 | just a liddle they will come out the barrel slow then speed up to normal speed |
| 18:39.34 | redsoxfan90 | little* |
| 18:39.44 | spldart | woah... |
| 18:39.47 | spldart | wierd |
| 18:39.59 | spldart | And the newest ati driver? |
| 18:40.01 | redsoxfan90 | im wondering if its the ati graphic driver |
| 18:40.05 | redsoxfan90 | i can't figure it out. |
| 18:40.26 | spldart | I haven't had that problem with my ati cards on deb which is like almost identical to ubunt |
| 18:40.37 | redsoxfan90 | yes |
| 18:40.41 | redsoxfan90 | you can play bzflag fine? |
| 18:40.45 | spldart | yes |
| 18:40.47 | spldart | always have |
| 18:40.49 | redsoxfan90 | man |
| 18:40.50 | spldart | hrm |
| 18:40.56 | spldart | any other sdl games screw up? |
| 18:41.19 | redsoxfan90 | think not |
| 18:41.33 | redsoxfan90 | http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2005/11/17/ubuntu_laptop.html?page=2 |
| 18:41.36 | redsoxfan90 | go to that second page |
| 18:41.42 | redsoxfan90 | it talks about bzflag and the ati graphic driver |
| 18:41.55 | redsoxfan90 | i followed those directions but is i saw they did nothing. |
| 18:43.42 | spldart | I'm stumped... my experience is X 4.3 6.8and 6.9 with old ati and the aiw 7500 8500 9200 9600 and 9800 |
| 18:43.59 | spldart | not hit your problem with those combinations though |
| 18:44.05 | redsoxfan90 | ic |
| 18:44.07 | spldart | sorry i couldn't help.. perhaps another? |
| 18:44.10 | redsoxfan90 | i have asked a couple of people |
| 18:44.14 | redsoxfan90 | no one seems to know |
| 18:44.26 | spldart | is there an #ubuntu channel like a #debian channel? |
| 18:44.45 | redsoxfan90 | yes |
| 18:45.10 | spldart | and they couldn't help :( |
| 18:45.21 | brlcad | L4m3r: heh |
| 18:45.27 | redsoxfan90 | well i figured you guys would know more but ill give it a try. |
| 18:45.30 | redsoxfan90 | brb :) |
| 18:45.36 | spldart | someone here might |
| 18:45.54 | spldart | I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer as far as this is concerneed |
| 18:45.55 | spldart | hehe |
| 19:06.34 | redsoxfan90 | djallikat{SM}: redsoxfan90: don't ask me, i don't know much about the current version either... but it may be worthwhile going into the machine bios and seeing if you can set the video card to use a fixed amount of video ram |
| 19:06.52 | redsoxfan90 | 5:05:12) djallikat{SM}: redsoxfan90: you probably need to check the x-server knows to talk to the card as an ATI and not use the generic svga libs |
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| 19:29.35 | Skeeve | JeffM2501 is it you who handles the mac xcode file of bzflag or is it brlcad? |
| 19:30.29 | *** join/#bzflag Ice (i=1893805e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-9536d31109295760) |
| 19:36.37 | DTRemenak | Skeeve: brlcad handles the mac stuff |
| 19:37.34 | JeffM2501 | yeah what he said |
| 19:37.36 | Skeeve | Thanks DTRemenak. brlcad: Are you around? |
| 19:37.48 | JeffM2501 | what do you need with it? |
| 19:38.10 | Skeeve | I downloaded 2.0.9 yesterday |
| 19:38.14 | Skeeve | via CVS |
| 19:38.18 | JeffM2501 | okay |
| 19:38.32 | Skeeve | the xcode file doesn't copy the needed files over |
| 19:38.39 | JeffM2501 | what file is it missing? |
| 19:38.48 | Skeeve | I had to add "/Development" to one script for it to work |
| 19:38.57 | Skeeve | The files are there |
| 19:39.04 | Skeeve | (those from data) |
| 19:39.08 | JeffM2501 | well submit a patch to SF for it, and he'll go an apply it |
| 19:39.12 | Skeeve | but they are not copied to the app |
| 19:40.09 | Skeeve | Problem is (might be) the .xcode file is converted to a newer version |
| 19:40.19 | Skeeve | so a simple patch won't do |
| 19:40.27 | JeffM2501 | well that's fine he can deal with that he he applies the patch |
| 19:40.34 | JeffM2501 | it's best to at least show a working file |
| 19:40.37 | ToughShooter | The newer version doesn't introduce the problem |
| 19:40.41 | ToughShooter | It works for me |
| 19:40.49 | Skeeve | 2.1 worked well |
| 19:40.58 | Skeeve | it's 2.0.9 that didn't |
| 19:41.10 | ToughShooter | However it does not work when I have a space in the dir name |
| 19:41.11 | JeffM2501 | ok, so just make a patch that is your changes to the 2.0.9 one |
| 19:41.20 | JeffM2501 | so he can know what you did |
| 19:41.48 | Skeeve | The patch will be a whole new file |
| 19:41.52 | JeffM2501 | that's fine |
| 19:41.56 | Skeeve | Okay |
| 19:42.11 | JeffM2501 | we don't plan on doing a 2.0.10, so ... |
| 19:50.46 | Skeeve | Shall I assign the patch to brlcad? |
| 19:51.04 | JBdiGriz | The patch needs to handle /Deployment as well. We have had this discussion. |
| 19:51.24 | Skeeve | ??? |
| 19:51.45 | Skeeve | What do you mean? |
| 19:52.27 | JBdiGriz | If you are creating a Development build, the files are copied to the /Development directory. If you are creating a Deployment build, they are copied to the /Deployment directory. |
| 19:52.43 | JBdiGriz | You can't just change the file to a particular string. |
| 19:52.55 | *** join/#bzflag Bz_Win (n=Kyle@CPE0016b6de59f3-CM000f9fac8236.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 19:52.57 | Bz_Win | Howdy |
| 19:53.09 | Skeeve | Okay... So my patch is wrong |
| 19:53.37 | Skeeve | But how do I know which build is done |
| 19:53.37 | Skeeve | I didn't even know that a /Deployment exists |
| 19:54.03 | JBdiGriz | There is probably an environment variable, but since 2.0.??? is going away, I haven't bothered looking for it. |
| 19:55.50 | Skeeve | Hmmm... There is only one possible target in the xcode project. Could this be some switch? I don't think an environment variable is needed in xcode. After all it's point & clicke |
| 19:55.53 | Skeeve | -e |
| 19:56.48 | JBdiGriz | It looks like it is fixed in HEAD as ${BUILT_PRODUCTS_DIR} try emulating that script. |
| 19:56.59 | Skeeve | Maybe there is no such thing as a Deployment build in xcode? |
| 19:57.44 | JBdiGriz | Go into the build menu and bring up the build results window. |
| 19:58.24 | Skeeve | Okay |
| 19:58.43 | JBdiGriz | See that label "Active Build Configuration" |
| 19:58.56 | Skeeve | tada! Yes! |
| 19:59.23 | JeffM2501 | so it's kinda like a debug/release build in VC? one copies the stuff, one dosn't? |
| 19:59.34 | JBdiGriz | brlcad: so you fixed it in 2.1 after our discussion, but you didn't bother with 2.0 branch? |
| 19:59.36 | Skeeve | I'll check |
| 20:00.07 | Skeeve | You're right |
| 20:00.10 | JBdiGriz | They both copy the stuff, but they build in different locations so you can have an active debug build along with an active deployment build. |
| 20:00.20 | Skeeve | I didn't fix it in 2.1 |
| 20:00.21 | JeffM2501 | makes sense |
| 20:00.32 | JBdiGriz | You can also define some other build configurations as well. |
| 20:00.35 | brlcad | i dont mess with 20branch unless its urgent |
| 20:01.03 | JBdiGriz | It wasn't urgent, and once we found it, I never bothered fixing it. |
| 20:01.22 | Skeeve | It's not urgent for me. Others might run into the same problem |
| 20:01.38 | JeffM2501 | you think many people are building 2.0.x cvs? |
| 20:01.41 | Skeeve | It might be urgent to them ;-) |
| 20:01.55 | brlcad | talking about diff between the pb project and the xcode project? |
| 20:02.06 | JBdiGriz | Skeeve: look at the fix in HEAD, make the same patches to v2_0branch. |
| 20:02.27 | Skeeve | I just wanted to do that |
| 20:02.27 | JBdiGriz | No, it's the lack of the Development/Deployment directory in the run script. |
| 20:02.38 | brlcad | i haven't changed the xcode project in ages, did you fix it JBdiGriz? |
| 20:02.55 | brlcad | at least not that I recall.. |
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| 20:03.28 | JBdiGriz | It's the first time anyone else has mentioned it, so I never bothered fixing it either. I think it's a good project for Skeeve. ;) |
| 20:04.02 | brlcad | yeah, xcode on head hasn't changed since feb |
| 20:04.33 | brlcad | Skeeve: do you have a fix? |
| 20:04.34 | JBdiGriz | I believe that's when we had the discussion. I'm also running the latest xcode, so it would force all developers to upgrade. |
| 20:04.42 | JBdiGriz | He will have one soon! |
| 20:05.12 | brlcad | heh |
| 20:05.18 | brlcad | he better! |
| 20:05.22 | brlcad | or i'll be sad |
| 20:05.26 | Skeeve | I'll have one soon |
| 20:05.37 | JBdiGriz | so don't be sad. |
| 20:05.40 | Skeeve | If only my wife wouldn't come and disturb |
| 20:06.01 | brlcad | depends what kind of disturbance |
| 20:06.06 | spldart | heh |
| 20:06.08 | JBdiGriz | Maybe we should find a wife for brlcad, and then he would really have something to be sad about. |
| 20:06.13 | Skeeve | ;-) Not *that* one |
| 20:06.27 | Skeeve | Problems with managing the HD-Recorder |
| 20:06.34 | brlcad | JBdiGriz: heh, no comment |
| 20:06.45 | spldart | lol |
| 20:09.05 | JBdiGriz | brlcad: What version of xcode are you running these days? |
| 20:09.10 | JeffM2501 | maybe that's why he's moving ;) |
| 20:09.26 | brlcad | :) |
| 20:09.55 | JBdiGriz | moving again? |
| 20:09.58 | brlcad | uhm, depends which machine |
| 20:10.13 | brlcad | i keep up with the latest non-beta on laptop |
| 20:10.19 | Skeeve | Okay |
| 20:10.39 | Skeeve | It's as simple as replacing ${TE;P_DIR} with ${BUILT_PRODUCTS_DIR} |
| 20:10.45 | Skeeve | -;+M |
| 20:10.56 | JBdiGriz | I'm not sure you can just take the patch, if you're trying to keep an old version around for building. |
| 20:10.59 | brlcad | ahh, *that* problem |
| 20:11.37 | Skeeve | Cant we just do a simple search and replace inside the xcode files? |
| 20:11.57 | brlcad | i think that change is actually backwards compatible too |
| 20:11.57 | brlcad | TEMP_DIR just went away as it was too vague |
| 20:12.10 | ATD_ | i'm still here |
| 20:12.21 | brlcad | and we're all thankful that you are |
| 20:12.29 | brlcad | well, maybe not everyone |
| 20:12.38 | JeffM2501 | I'm not |
| 20:12.51 | Skeeve | find BZFLAG.xcode -type f -print0 | xargs -0 perl -i.bak -pe 's/TEMP_DIR/BUILT_PRODUCTS_DIR/g' |
| 20:12.52 | JBdiGriz | the search and replace should work, and it shouldn't require an upgrade. |
| 20:12.57 | brlcad | you came to mind, hence the caveat ;) |
| 20:13.14 | brlcad | Skeeve: heh, too much work |
| 20:13.17 | Skeeve | I'll try it! |
| 20:13.38 | JBdiGriz | Since when is copy/paste too much work. :D |
| 20:13.58 | brlcad | perl -pi -e 's/TEMP_DIR/BUILT_PRODUCTS_DIR/g' BZFlag.xcode/project.pbxproj |
| 20:14.13 | blast007 | mmm, pi |
| 20:14.19 | brlcad | all that crazy find xargs bloat ;) |
| 20:14.21 | Skeeve | -i .bak -pe |
| 20:14.31 | brlcad | it's one file |
| 20:14.40 | Skeeve | I didn't know which one |
| 20:14.51 | brlcad | there's only one ;) |
| 20:14.56 | JBdiGriz | It just makes sure there aren't any other usages of TEMP_DIR within the project directory. He's being thorough! ;) |
| 20:15.00 | Skeeve | Nope |
| 20:15.18 | Skeeve | Some makefiles are there too |
| 20:15.33 | Skeeve | Okay |
| 20:15.44 | Skeeve | They are created by configure, right? |
| 20:16.31 | JBdiGriz | Those shouldn't be created by configure. It doesn't recurse down into the xcode project directory. |
| 20:18.50 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, ok so in your list server ideas, there were nothing but likes, damn likes, and videotape, how did you envision making sure that when a peer server conects to you, it's a valid peer? and not some faker just trying to reset passwords and stuff? |
| 20:19.04 | JeffM2501 | wow I can't spell |
| 20:19.28 | brlcad | JBdiGriz: actually it does recurse down into there, there's just nothing to do |
| 20:19.30 | JeffM2501 | s/likes/lies :) |
| 20:19.36 | brlcad | hence the Makefile.am |
| 20:20.06 | brlcad | JeffM2501: heh |
| 20:20.08 | brlcad | hold |
| 20:21.19 | JBdiGriz | Obviously it does recurse down there, but xcode takes care of all of that. |
| 20:21.49 | JBdiGriz | I would be surprised if configure knows anything about TEMP_DIR |
| 20:22.34 | Skeeve | It's TEMP_ROOT not TEMP_DIR and so I needed some time to find out that the search and repace really works |
| 20:23.14 | Skeeve | Shall I send the patched file, brlcad? Do you patch it on your own? |
| 20:23.44 | JBdiGriz | Submit it in the patches on sourceforge. |
| 20:26.40 | JeffM2501 | it's never bad to submit more patches |
| 20:27.12 | Skeeve | I can't submit |
| 20:27.32 | JBdiGriz | Why not? |
| 20:27.33 | Skeeve | The page dooesn't change and I get no info what's wrong |
| 20:27.51 | Skeeve | If only I knew |
| 20:28.06 | Skeeve | Stupid me! |
| 20:28.09 | Skeeve | I know! |
| 20:30.00 | Skeeve | Done... The .xcode I selected isn't a file but a directory... |
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| 20:31.41 | ToughShooter | Directories are files, too (in hfs+, IIRC) |
| 20:32.15 | Skeeve | :-P But not for the browser |
| 20:33.51 | brlcad | JeffM2501: i was envisioning just simple (manual) connectivity lists, server A would have a list that B, C, and D are allowed to connect; server B would have a list allowing A, C, and D, etc. |
| 20:34.18 | brlcad | i didn't envision there being more than a handful, that's easy enough to just edit a config file 3/4 times |
| 20:35.25 | brlcad | and just rely on non-spoofed IPs, maybe use the same token md5 callback to verify it's not spoofed |
| 20:36.24 | brlcad | directories are only files to Finder for bundles, .xcode is a project bundle type |
| 20:42.56 | brlcad | Skeeve: did you actually test your change yet? |
| 20:50.00 | CIA-6 | BZFlag: 03brlcad 07v2_0branch * 10bzflag/BZFlag.xcode/project.pbxproj: apply a modified form of skeeve's sf patch 1548870, s/TEMP_ROOT/BUILT_PRODUCTS_DIR/g |
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| 20:59.19 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, ok so a list of who could connect, and who to conect too |
| 20:59.39 | JeffM2501 | sounds simple enough |
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| 21:00.55 | brlcad | yeah, i figured it'd pretty much rarely ever change, so why architect something more elaborate than a config file |
| 21:02.03 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 21:02.20 | JeffM2501 | I was thining of doing a key at runtime, but a simple list is engouh |
| 21:03.00 | JBdiGriz | Is it a list of hostnames, so the IP addresses will be able to change? |
| 21:03.14 | JeffM2501 | yeah I'd think so |
| 21:03.19 | JeffM2501 | that's what I'm gonna store |
| 21:04.00 | JBdiGriz | What are you doing to do with multiple IP addresses per hostname? |
| 21:04.34 | JeffM2501 | well if your gonna run a list server for us, make sure that your reverse DNS is correct for the IP your sending out on |
| 21:04.47 | JeffM2501 | it dosn't need to be a super general solution |
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| 21:05.10 | JeffM2501 | flat host also dosn't let somone run from a dynamic IP |
| 21:05.18 | JBdiGriz | The reverse would be correct, but it's still allowed to have a hostname resolve to several IP addresses, which could be multiple hosts. |
| 21:05.39 | JeffM2501 | you think somone with a system like that will run a list? |
| 21:06.08 | JBdiGriz | I could imagine nid setting up something like that. It would actually allow him to have redundant listservers as well. |
| 21:06.15 | JeffM2501 | are any of the perpsective curent hosts set up like that? |
| 21:06.28 | JeffM2501 | got a sugestion? |
| 21:07.06 | JBdiGriz | I would allow for it, just don't make any assumptions that a host name resolves to a single IP address/host. |
| 21:07.14 | JeffM2501 | so what to check? |
| 21:07.19 | JeffM2501 | can't just let anyone in |
| 21:07.29 | JBdiGriz | When you get the list of IP addresses, don't just stop at one. |
| 21:07.32 | JeffM2501 | make let it do host or ip? |
| 21:07.52 | JeffM2501 | list of IPs from the hostname you mean |
| 21:08.36 | JBdiGriz | Connect to each of the ip addresses and do the initial exchange. If it's a server that you already know, just add it to the structure as known. If it's a new one, initialize the connection. |
| 21:08.42 | JeffM2501 | so if my.domain.com resolves to a.a.a.a and b.b.b.b and c.c.c.c if we get a cnnection from any 3 allow it because the look up on the domain returned all 3 |
| 21:08.55 | JBdiGriz | yes |
| 21:09.10 | JeffM2501 | the outgoing coneciton I'm not worried about, it's the incomings |
| 21:09.51 | JeffM2501 | just woried about leting anyone connect as a "peer" when they could be there to scam user data. |
| 21:10.00 | JBdiGriz | There should be an initial verification exchange with the incomings as well. They should let you know who they are, and it should match a known hostname. |
| 21:10.09 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 21:10.55 | JeffM2501 | I am also a little woried about a new peer coming on line and syncing users |
| 21:10.56 | JBdiGriz | It could be as simple as a netsplit somewhere, and they are coming from a different IP connection. You definitely want to allow for that. |
| 21:10.59 | JeffM2501 | or what happens on a split |
| 21:11.51 | JeffM2501 | for a simple connection verification I was thinking of some sort of just magic key that would be part of the config |
| 21:11.58 | JeffM2501 | not horibly secure but probably functional |
| 21:12.13 | JeffM2501 | make everyone in your network know the magic key |
| 21:12.16 | JBdiGriz | As long as it's a separate key per known hostname. |
| 21:12.34 | JeffM2501 | and make your server have to send it before it's accepted |
| 21:12.55 | JBdiGriz | over an encrypted connection. |
| 21:13.06 | JeffM2501 | the user sync on split scares me more |
| 21:13.27 | JBdiGriz | You might be able to use ssh or something similar to accomplish most of that. |
| 21:13.42 | JeffM2501 | guess just timestamp the last edit, if there is a discrepancy then use the one with the newest time |
| 21:13.58 | JeffM2501 | and hope time times of the servers are decently synced |
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| 21:14.10 | JBdiGriz | Require the servers to run ntpd. |
| 21:14.18 | JeffM2501 | or at least use one |
| 21:14.24 | JeffM2501 | and get a GMT time for every stamp |
| 21:14.43 | JeffM2501 | ahh ntpd is the client thingy isn't |
| 21:15.20 | JBdiGriz | yep |
| 21:15.24 | JeffM2501 | tho I only expect edits to come from one node |
| 21:15.35 | JeffM2501 | new users from many notes, |
| 21:15.38 | JeffM2501 | nodes |
| 21:16.23 | JeffM2501 | there is also the issue of new names conflicting during a split |
| 21:16.39 | JeffM2501 | if your split, and 2 people add the same name, how do you resolve that |
| 21:16.46 | JeffM2501 | the userIDs will be difrent |
| 21:18.50 | JBdiGriz | First one to add wins, second one gets an email notice of failure. They both need to respond to an email to verify the addition. |
| 21:19.11 | JeffM2501 | well the way I'm doing it, you get to play before you vierfy |
| 21:19.15 | JeffM2501 | just not with all the servers |
| 21:19.47 | JBdiGriz | I don't see how that's a problem. They won't be able to verify their name to play, and the server will just not allow the second one to join. |
| 21:19.50 | JeffM2501 | but yeah when the split resolves, rename one, and send an e-mail |
| 21:20.34 | JeffM2501 | should be a rare event one would hope |
| 21:20.47 | JeffM2501 | just interetsting how complex it all gets when you get down to the specifics |
| 21:20.55 | JeffM2501 | a lot of "what if.." |
| 21:22.39 | JeffM2501 | give me a new respect for places that ebay that have to spread all that stuff over many servers, and not screw up, or people could loose money/stuff |
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| 21:31.19 | CBG | lol? http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=89183#89183 |
| 21:31.53 | JeffM2501 | damnit, I asked him to change that avatar too |
| 21:32.20 | CBG | *sigh* kids these days... |
| 21:32.39 | CBG | What? :P |
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| 21:43.14 | brlcad | "like" a madman or BECAUSE he's a madman? |
| 21:43.24 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 21:43.38 | JBdiGriz | Eyes of the beholder |
| 21:47.08 | JeffM2501 | he gets his first plugin in a bit |
| 22:13.04 | *** join/#bzflag Rewt` (n=rewt@adsl-146-106-239.mco.bellsouth.net) |
| 22:13.15 | Rewt` | uhm.. how do I load a map I have saved? |
| 22:13.35 | Rewt` | 2.0.8 |
| 22:14.26 | Rewt` | nm |
| 22:15.00 | CBG | "load"? |
| 22:17.06 | Rewt` | hmm. |
| 22:17.31 | Rewt` | I figured that out. now it's saying it can't connect to localhost. ;-) |
| 22:18.47 | Rewt` | but, only when I used a map I've saved. |
| 22:18.48 | Rewt` | odd. |
| 22:21.05 | brlcad | does anyone know if there's an equivalent call for sync() on win32? |
| 22:24.24 | brlcad | i'm not finding a darn thing of use in the docs and searches |
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| 23:57.31 | JeffM2501 | what does it do? |
| 23:57.58 | CBG | oh my word: http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=89198#89198 ...... |
| 23:58.38 | JeffM2501 | -O- is suposedly very young |
| 23:59.14 | CBG | That's one of his 2 posts, his other is worse... :| |
| 23:59.23 | JeffM2501 | where? |
| 23:59.25 | CBG | 'very young' sounds about right |
| 23:59.32 | CBG | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=8849 |