| 00:41.57 | spldart | so quiet |
| 00:42.05 | tokimi | shhhh |
| 00:42.29 | spldart | :-) |
| 00:44.55 | *** join/#bzflag QuantumBeep (n=QB@adsl-153-77-174.lft.bellsouth.net) |
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| 01:09.39 | SportChick | JeffM2501: ping :) |
| 01:10.35 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 01:16.35 | [NP]Tangent | the appropriate response would have been: PONG! |
| 01:21.19 | Legoguy | i think im gonna take my nikon d50 and make bzflag some new textures |
| 01:23.15 | spldart | oooOOOooo |
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| 02:36.53 | pyr0 | mooony |
| 02:37.04 | moonpix | heya pyr0 |
| 02:37.25 | pyr0 | its so quiet everywhere tonight |
| 02:37.33 | dngor | Hmm... I'm trying to make a planet by using a mesh and a sphere. The sphere (hemi) is the dark side, and the mesh is the light side. There are nasty artifacts at the daylight line. |
| 02:37.52 | moonpix | its oh so quiet... shhh.. shhh |
| 02:38.28 | pyr0 | weee |
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| 02:38.30 | dngor | It's a shame, too. The planet is otherwise quite nice. |
| 02:40.05 | *** join/#bzflag shorty114 (i=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |
| 02:41.58 | JeffM2501 | make it all one mesh |
| 02:42.14 | spldart | so.. so quiet |
| 02:42.30 | dngor | Can each face be a different material? |
| 02:42.31 | JeffM2501 | half-life 2.. so so prety |
| 02:42.37 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 02:42.48 | dngor | D'oh! That would work great. |
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| 04:09.00 | deadman | anyone know how to kill bzflag from the CLI without using ps? |
| 04:09.17 | PuMpErNiCkLe | killall bzflag |
| 04:11.24 | deadman | thanks i'll tryit |
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| 04:54.56 | dngor | My map is done, but freebsd ports says 2.0.8 is broken and won't compile. That's butt. |
| 04:55.21 | dngor | I can't host it to show it off. |
| 05:04.58 | *** join/#bzflag RatOmeter_ (n=chatzill@139.78.95.188) |
| 05:05.38 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 05:05.38 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
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| 06:09.49 | dngor | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=87790 ... my new map (screen shot and .bzw) |
| 06:12.01 | Redsoxfan90 | intresting :) |
| 06:12.58 | [NP]Tangent | neat, dngor |
| 06:15.58 | PuMpErNiCkLe | That's pretty sweet. |
| 06:17.08 | trepan | dngor: with drawInfo objects, you can draw real GL lines (no width spec) |
| 06:22.02 | dngor | Aw. I was using an older bzw.5 man page for reference. |
| 06:24.18 | *** join/#bzflag Blue_Eyes (n=Blue@treebupf.inet.it) |
| 06:24.34 | trepan | would prolly look dumb ;) |
| 06:27.20 | A-Delusion | dngor... I'll host it... tomorrow... too late to start now |
| 06:28.29 | dngor | Neat! It's not that playable, though... just a default map with some decorations. |
| 06:29.06 | A-Delusion | thats not a problem, I like the way it looks |
| 06:29.36 | A-Delusion | ahhh I can throw it up in a few minutes |
| 06:29.42 | A-Delusion | gimme 15 |
| 06:34.38 | A-Delusion | any special settings? FFA? |
| 06:34.50 | *** join/#bzflag Pommes (n=Pommes@pD95461BA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 06:36.40 | dngor | The only ones I know about are in the file already. |
| 06:39.35 | A-Delusion | I'm just dropping the map path into a conf i use for other maps... we'll see how it works |
| 06:41.35 | A-Delusion | WARNING: MeshTransform::Tool::Tool() 2.0.0 inversion bug |
| 06:41.35 | A-Delusion | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:41.59 | A-Delusion | but it started.... a-delusion.no-ip.info:4356 |
| 06:42.39 | A-Delusion | working OK |
| 06:56.16 | *** join/#bzflag kyelewis[3] (n=kyelewis@freematrix/staff/kyelewis) |
| 06:57.42 | A-Delusion | that's pretty impressive, not alot to the map, but the graphics are a complete departure |
| 06:57.55 | A-Delusion | or should I say homage to the past? |
| 06:58.13 | [NP]Tangent | I should model a map after the Spectre game for old macs |
| 06:58.46 | A-Delusion | join the server.... the admsg is wrong. |
| 07:06.10 | dngor | Gotta go. |
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| 07:10.01 | A-Delusion | wait |
| 07:10.07 | A-Delusion | no jumping? |
| 07:10.27 | Admirarch | It really is a nice looking map |
| 07:10.47 | A-Delusion | completely unique |
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| 07:23.18 | *** join/#bzflag SportChick (n=SportChi@69-167-38-164.stmnca.adelphia.net) |
| 07:23.18 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v SportChick] by irc.freenode.net |
| 07:23.55 | A-Delusion | Arcade BattleZone was 2 shots, right? |
| 07:24.04 | *** join/#bzflag SC (n=SportChi@69-167-38-164.stmnca.adelphia.net) |
| 07:28.22 | A-Delusion | well, he lagged out of the server.... I'm gonna have to raise that |
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| 08:33.43 | Skeeve | Good Morning |
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| 11:52.01 | benji13 | heya |
| 11:52.33 | benji13 | #kierra |
| 11:52.36 | benji13 | lol |
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| 11:58.40 | moriah | msg nickserv help register |
| 11:58.46 | moriah | oops |
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| 13:30.29 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v SportChick] by ChanServ |
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| 14:30.22 | blast007 | I was up late getting angry at Gentoo |
| 14:31.25 | Mr_Molez | suuuure |
| 14:36.27 | blast007 | I installed Slackware instead ;) |
| 14:43.32 | *** join/#bzflag tokimi (n=toki@bjoerling.phys.washington.edu) |
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| 15:18.06 | pyr0 | laaalala |
| 15:18.47 | Mr_Molez | k |
| 15:19.31 | dngor | Can't stay and play. :( |
| 15:21.35 | pyr0 | k |
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| 16:06.48 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
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| 16:58.12 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o purple_cow] by ChanServ |
| 16:58.28 | purple_cow | whoo, pyogre builds |
| 17:01.20 | *** join/#bzflag moonpix (n=user@201-35-138-146.pltce7007.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) |
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| 17:04.47 | JeffM2501 | they got it complete? |
| 17:05.38 | purple_cow | i don't think its fully updated for 1.2 |
| 17:05.38 | purple_cow | but it builds, and just about all the samples run |
| 17:05.53 | JeffM2501 | gonna play with it? |
| 17:06.37 | purple_cow | of course |
| 17:06.41 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 17:07.13 | JeffM2501 | care to share? |
| 17:07.36 | JeffM2501 | so now that your wage slave, time to slack off right? :) |
| 17:07.50 | purple_cow | no, they're secret |
| 17:07.55 | purple_cow | and i'm not a wage slave *yet* |
| 17:07.59 | JeffM2501 | awwww |
| 17:08.11 | purple_cow | one more week |
| 17:08.14 | JeffM2501 | or is it just siggraph seting off ideas in your head? :) |
| 17:08.42 | purple_cow | well, that's part of it |
| 17:11.37 | [NP]Tangent | does xchat have an amsg command? [amsg] |
| 17:11.43 | purple_cow | amsg? |
| 17:11.45 | JeffM2501 | the structure editor just sucks big time |
| 17:11.57 | purple_cow | what's a structure editor? |
| 17:12.07 | JeffM2501 | think quake type BSPs |
| 17:12.19 | JeffM2501 | they are nodes in there portal system |
| 17:12.28 | purple_cow | ahh |
| 17:12.38 | JeffM2501 | terrain with holes -> portals -> strctures |
| 17:12.45 | [NP]Tangent | I guess xchat does have an amsg command |
| 17:12.46 | JeffM2501 | it's not a bad way of doing it |
| 17:12.46 | [NP]Tangent | oops |
| 17:13.06 | JeffM2501 | they just use quark for it and quark sucks |
| 17:18.32 | JeffM2501 | many of us are |
| 17:22.04 | dngor | Keeps me in bandwidth. :) |
| 17:24.33 | TheBarron | What part of the bz source renders the radar overlay (the little tank with the field of vision lines?) |
| 17:25.22 | JeffM2501 | you want to know the file? or just the general class? |
| 17:25.46 | TheBarron | either one would help, but the file would prolly be great :) |
| 17:25.58 | JeffM2501 | let me look |
| 17:26.02 | JeffM2501 | what are you trying to do? |
| 17:27.06 | JeffM2501 | well it's all in RadarRenderer.cxx |
| 17:27.36 | JeffM2501 | the functions are logicaly named |
| 17:27.45 | TheBarron | there's a little line at the top edge that indicates.. err.. how did I not find that? Oh.. maybe I saw that and assumed it was the actual radar info and not the overlay. Either way, I'm retarded |
| 17:28.05 | JeffM2501 | huh? |
| 17:28.07 | TheBarron | anyway.. wondering if that line could be extended down to the center tank dot |
| 17:28.52 | JeffM2501 | it should be trivial to do that |
| 17:29.02 | TheBarron | I would assume.. |
| 17:29.12 | TheBarron | but a) I'm a moron b) I didn't know where to start looking. |
| 17:29.14 | JeffM2501 | line 822 |
| 17:29.17 | JeffM2501 | "north marker" |
| 17:29.41 | JeffM2501 | oh sorry |
| 17:29.45 | JeffM2501 | below that |
| 17:29.48 | JeffM2501 | "forward tick" |
| 17:30.06 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@adsl-68-120-69-185.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 17:30.16 | JeffM2501 | northmaker is the "N" :) |
| 17:30.16 | TheBarron | DLing source atm.. I had it on the other computer.. at home.. |
| 17:30.22 | TheBarron | right |
| 17:30.31 | JeffM2501 | just change this |
| 17:30.32 | JeffM2501 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:30.34 | JeffM2501 | to this |
| 17:30.43 | JeffM2501 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:30.47 | JeffM2501 | and that should do it |
| 17:30.48 | JeffM2501 | I think |
| 17:30.51 | TheBarron | sweet, thanks |
| 17:31.14 | JeffM2501 | it'll be ether 0 or radarRange * 0.5f |
| 17:31.20 | JeffM2501 | I forget where the origin is |
| 17:31.39 | JeffM2501 | probalby the later |
| 17:34.38 | TheBarron | hrm.. you must be working of diff source. I found it, but northmarker isn't at 822 :) |
| 17:34.45 | TheBarron | you have cvs or something? |
| 17:34.48 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:34.52 | TheBarron | ah |
| 17:34.53 | JeffM2501 | 2.0.x is done with |
| 17:35.00 | CBG | TrB.. Sane... lol |
| 17:35.17 | TheBarron | JeffM2501: then release something 2.1.x :) |
| 17:35.19 | JeffM2501 | sill shold be the same changes |
| 17:35.25 | *** join/#bzflag TheRedBaron (n=cc73bc2e@zeebrothers.net) |
| 17:35.29 | JeffM2501 | it's not ready for testing yet |
| 17:35.47 | JeffM2501 | dosn't have enough features |
| 17:35.51 | TheBarron | I hear there's kickass shot effects and such in 2.1.x |
| 17:35.59 | JeffM2501 | there are new ones yes |
| 17:36.03 | JeffM2501 | for experimental |
| 17:36.37 | JeffM2501 | there needs to be more stuff done server side before 2.2 is released |
| 17:37.06 | TheBarron | like? are doing anti-cheating stuff, or just other assorted changed? |
| 17:37.09 | TheBarron | changes |
| 17:37.18 | CBG | Changing this 'forward tick' to the line as TheBarron suggests, could be considered cheating, imho. |
| 17:37.27 | CBG | Though there's no way anyone could detect it. |
| 17:37.56 | TheBarron | I think it'd only be considered cheating by newbs like me, wouldn't? :) |
| 17:38.09 | CBG | It's an advantage, for sure. |
| 17:38.11 | TheBarron | Don't see how me having it would have much effect against you seasoned folks |
| 17:38.12 | CBG | And I'd say its unfair. |
| 17:38.16 | TheBarron | ah |
| 17:38.24 | CBG | A whole load of folk wouldn't have a clue how to implement that change. |
| 17:38.45 | TheBarron | well, I don't even have a compiler installed atm, so I may never either :) |
| 17:39.10 | EbErT | i bet even ppl like mikkel has used custom textures and done things like that to be more accurate |
| 17:39.19 | EbErT | not saying its right, but u can't stop it |
| 17:39.55 | EbErT | putting stripes on the pyramids to know where to jump, ect |
| 17:41.16 | CBG | TheBarron = TrB ? |
| 17:41.16 | CBG | Har, don't talk to me about Mikkel. :P |
| 17:41.28 | CBG | haha.... |
| 17:41.40 | TheBarron | no, not TrB |
| 17:41.44 | TheBarron | notice, two r's |
| 17:41.52 | CBG | Oh, I see. :) |
| 17:44.15 | JeffM2501 | CBG, by your rules, my monitor is a cheat |
| 17:44.21 | TheBarron | haha |
| 17:44.26 | CBG | Explain. |
| 17:44.27 | TheBarron | damn cheater! |
| 17:44.30 | TheBarron | BAN HIM! |
| 17:44.36 | JeffM2501 | TheBarron, stuff that helps prevent cheats is what is always disired |
| 17:44.45 | JeffM2501 | but we'll have to see what people code up |
| 17:44.57 | JeffM2501 | CBG, I have a widescreen display, my FOV is wider then yours |
| 17:45.06 | JeffM2501 | I can see more then you can with out distortion |
| 17:45.11 | JeffM2501 | I have an advantage |
| 17:45.15 | JeffM2501 | and you can't detect it |
| 17:45.18 | TheBarron | well.. I begin to wonder now, how/where the line between cheating or not ends |
| 17:45.25 | JeffM2501 | exacty |
| 17:45.27 | CBG | That's the same as someone having a better computer with better FPS. |
| 17:45.32 | TheBarron | I mean, I hate cheaters, but as you point out.. |
| 17:45.51 | JeffM2501 | in general informational or client side performance enahncers are hard to call "Cheats" |
| 17:45.58 | JeffM2501 | real cheats change how your tank behaves |
| 17:45.59 | CBG | The line has to be at the point where someone goes out of their way to gain the advantage. |
| 17:46.06 | CBG | Like, modding source code = cheating. |
| 17:46.14 | CBG | Having a better computer = not. |
| 17:46.26 | JeffM2501 | CBG, depends on the mod |
| 17:46.29 | JeffM2501 | his mod, no not realy |
| 17:46.38 | JeffM2501 | since it's just taloring it to his play style |
| 17:46.52 | JeffM2501 | he could put tape on his monitor to ge the same effect ;) |
| 17:47.07 | TheBarron | BZ is a whole new world now that I found the damn option to make the radar bigger :) |
| 17:47.13 | TheBarron | mind you, I still SUCK hardcore, but.. |
| 17:47.14 | JeffM2501 | he's not moding the code to change how his tank performs |
| 17:47.43 | JeffM2501 | 2.1 has an external camera mode now, you can do a full top down game if you REALY wanted to |
| 17:47.47 | JeffM2501 | and you like to vomit |
| 17:47.54 | TheBarron | heh |
| 17:48.27 | JeffM2501 | by cbgs rules we should not even allow config options that change how the game looks |
| 17:48.34 | TheBarron | depends.. is vomiting cheatin? |
| 17:48.47 | JeffM2501 | is it an advantage? :) |
| 17:49.01 | JeffM2501 | personaly I'd like to see end user configurable UIs |
| 17:49.08 | JeffM2501 | like via XML or something |
| 17:49.09 | Mr_Molez | if u have ur hand on the mouse and u vomit that would make ur hand move and u could dodge a bullet in the process ;) |
| 17:49.19 | TheBarron | Bingo! |
| 17:49.23 | JeffM2501 | it could also be a lubricant for the mouse |
| 17:49.29 | Mr_Molez | eww haha |
| 17:49.33 | JeffM2501 | vommit.. the ultimate ME |
| 17:49.49 | TheBarron | that's it, I'm going to get me some rotten food... |
| 17:50.13 | JeffM2501 | I draw the line at changing how the tank moves, or making the client automaticly move the tank with out human input ( aimbots ) |
| 17:50.17 | JeffM2501 | thos are cheats |
| 17:50.39 | JeffM2501 | with an open source game we'll never be able to do much about the people who change there local display |
| 17:50.53 | JeffM2501 | but we can minimise there effects |
| 17:50.54 | Mr_Molez | ive heared rhumors about bots that can learn a move and you can turn it on at any moment to do that move exactly as it was recorded to do, is that possible ? |
| 17:50.59 | CBG | Huh? |
| 17:51.07 | CBG | Anyone can change the config, so it's not unfair. |
| 17:51.11 | JeffM2501 | Mr_Molez, sure that would be simple |
| 17:51.18 | JeffM2501 | CBG, anyone can change the code |
| 17:51.29 | JeffM2501 | there are free compilers for all OSs |
| 17:51.33 | CBG | Not really, it requires knowledge. |
| 17:51.40 | JeffM2501 | so does changing a config |
| 17:51.44 | CBG | Hardly. |
| 17:51.44 | JeffM2501 | just less knowledge |
| 17:51.50 | TheBarron | where do you set the knowledge bar? :) |
| 17:51.53 | JeffM2501 | it's all about lines |
| 17:51.57 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 17:52.05 | CBG | I looked at my cfg for 3 minutes before I added key controls. |
| 17:52.10 | JeffM2501 | CBG, sounds like you want closed source? |
| 17:52.15 | Mr_Molez | so the line is drawn at changing source only ? |
| 17:52.19 | JeffM2501 | for him |
| 17:52.21 | CBG | JeffM2501: wtf? |
| 17:52.22 | JeffM2501 | for me, no |
| 17:52.26 | TheBarron | I mean, I think there's a lot of folks who shouldn't be allowed to touch a computer, or drive a car.. but.. apparently, we set the bar pretty damn low :) |
| 17:52.30 | JeffM2501 | CBG, you say that moding source is cheating. |
| 17:52.36 | JeffM2501 | or am I misinterpreting you |
| 17:52.39 | CBG | Isn't it, in most cases? |
| 17:52.46 | JeffM2501 | I mod the source |
| 17:52.49 | JeffM2501 | every day |
| 17:52.52 | JeffM2501 | am I cheating? |
| 17:52.56 | CBG | Perhaps. |
| 17:53.05 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 17:53.10 | JeffM2501 | so you want to prevent cheating right? |
| 17:53.11 | CBG | If you use your client on public servers, and you have an advantage over others. |
| 17:53.12 | DTRemenak | changing how information that the end user should be able to see is presented is not cheating, sorry |
| 17:53.28 | CBG | JeffM2501: it'd be nice, but it's never going to be possible. |
| 17:53.40 | TheBarron | CBG: so are folks who play every day cheaters? They play on public servers, and sure as hell have an advantage :) |
| 17:53.51 | DTRemenak | it's completely satisfactory to write an entirely different client. the UI is not set in stone. |
| 17:53.57 | CBG | Don't twist my words. |
| 17:54.04 | JeffM2501 | I'm just trying to understand you |
| 17:54.10 | JeffM2501 | I think more real dev goes on then cheat mods |
| 17:54.13 | JeffM2501 | a lot more |
| 17:54.22 | JeffM2501 | so most code changes are not cheats |
| 17:54.23 | CBG | JeffM2501: was talking about modding the source, if you get an advantage from modding the source and play on a public server, that is cheating. |
| 17:54.34 | CBG | Period. Anyone who doesn't see that is stupid. |
| 17:54.56 | JeffM2501 | and to get a real tangable advantage, I think you ahve to change how your tank behaves, or make the game do auotmated moves for you |
| 17:55.01 | Chestal | there is a fine line between valid mods and cheating, with some grey zone |
| 17:55.03 | JeffM2501 | CBG, no need to get rude |
| 17:55.14 | Chestal | IMHO that radar line is still on the ok side |
| 17:55.16 | CBG | sorry |
| 17:55.28 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: i remember u telling me once that it would be cheating to make flags appear bigger on the radar :P |
| 17:55.29 | Chestal | but e.g. indicating tank orientation on radar is on the cheating side |
| 17:55.34 | CBG | That line mod is in a grey area, imho. |
| 17:55.35 | JeffM2501 | yeah small UI enhancements that just help a person visualise better are just mods |
| 17:55.39 | JeffM2501 | in the nature of open source |
| 17:55.42 | CBG | I said it "could be considered cheating". |
| 17:56.05 | JeffM2501 | Mr_Molez, in cbg's terms, yes it would |
| 17:56.18 | CBG | Not really. |
| 17:56.19 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: but you told me it would be a cheat :P |
| 17:56.27 | CBG | Since it's not an advantage at all |
| 17:56.28 | JeffM2501 | well that's cus I don't like you ;) |
| 17:56.37 | CBG | Unless you can't see flags on radar at normal size..?? |
| 17:56.48 | DTRemenak | Mr_Molez: I believe what he told you was that "some people would consider that cheating" which is perfectly true |
| 17:57.00 | JeffM2501 | it's a fine line between "advantage" and "customisation" |
| 17:57.01 | Mr_Molez | DTRemenak: oh ok :) |
| 17:57.04 | CBG | I fail to see how or why. |
| 17:57.13 | TheBarron | ok.. since cheating is a hot button and all. Here's a question. Let's say I come in here asking all sorts of questions about how to do cheat mods. Do you guys refuse to help? Ban me? I mean, what if I'm just modding for private play on private servers? (just curious, seeing how it's such an issue) |
| 17:57.18 | CBG | How is "big flags on radar" an advantage to anyone bar those with poor eyesight?? |
| 17:57.28 | JeffM2501 | TheBarron, depends |
| 17:57.32 | DTRemenak | it's an advantage to those with poor eyesight ;) |
| 17:57.41 | DTRemenak | ultimately the rules for what is considered cheating or not is up to the server owner |
| 17:57.42 | CBG | Not an advantage. |
| 17:57.47 | JeffM2501 | if we get the indication that the person is trying to do public cheats, then we don't help them |
| 17:57.53 | CBG | It brings them onto a level playing field, so to speak. |
| 17:57.56 | JeffM2501 | if they annoy us or get unrully, they get banned |
| 17:58.06 | JeffM2501 | mostly we ask them to do a mod client on a non public protocoll |
| 17:58.24 | JeffM2501 | most of the cheat makers arn't dumb enough to come in and ask :) |
| 17:58.26 | DTRemenak | CBG: some people can extend lines on radar in their head, without needing to on the screen. |
| 17:58.36 | JeffM2501 | most cheats are the same old cheats from over a year ago |
| 17:58.43 | CBG | Then good for them, they're more skilled at the game than others. |
| 17:58.46 | DTRemenak | so someone modding his client to do it on the screen is just levelling the playing field, right? |
| 17:59.00 | orange | hmmm |
| 17:59.06 | CBG | No, here we go again twisting my words. |
| 17:59.12 | orange | some people can aim and anticipate where a shot and tank will be in 2 seconds |
| 17:59.13 | CBG | Bad eyesight is a disability. |
| 17:59.15 | Theme97 | does playerRecord->currentFlag return the full flag name or the abbreviation? |
| 17:59.22 | CBG | Not being able to visualise things is not. |
| 17:59.26 | JeffM2501 | CBG, he didn't say eyesight, he said barin |
| 17:59.27 | DTRemenak | so is the lack of a geometric mindset |
| 17:59.29 | JeffM2501 | brain |
| 17:59.35 | DTRemenak | that's a disability |
| 17:59.48 | Mr_Molez | DTRemenak: what i was gona say :P |
| 17:59.55 | JeffM2501 | so anyone not as good as the current leader is disabled? :) |
| 18:00.01 | JeffM2501 | cus they should all be level |
| 18:00.16 | Chestal | that's what handicap game mode is for :-) |
| 18:00.20 | JeffM2501 | difrent people just see things difrently |
| 18:00.22 | DTRemenak | ~chestal++ |
| 18:00.28 | orange | ack, handicap mode :-) |
| 18:00.30 | CBG | Indeed. |
| 18:00.34 | JeffM2501 | I pesonaly rarely use radar |
| 18:00.41 | Mr_Molez | what is handicap anyway ? i have never understood that |
| 18:00.42 | JeffM2501 | on those few moments I play |
| 18:00.47 | CBG | That says it all. :P |
| 18:00.51 | JeffM2501 | I guess I'm disabled |
| 18:01.03 | Chestal | Mr_Molez: basically, it boosts tanks with bad score |
| 18:01.05 | Theme97 | I wonder how effective CL is on Jeff... |
| 18:01.08 | CBG | huh, JeffM2501 ? |
| 18:01.14 | DTRemenak | people can adjust their clients to work the way they want. just because we forgot to give someone an option they need is not a reason for them not to implement and use it |
| 18:01.18 | Mr_Molez | Chestal: boosts their speed ? |
| 18:01.26 | JeffM2501 | people who use the radar have an advantage over me |
| 18:01.35 | TheBarron | heh.. this is true |
| 18:01.37 | orange | what is the line? |
| 18:01.40 | DTRemenak | hmm....so you implemented no-radar mode... :) |
| 18:01.40 | CBG | Not an UNFAIR advantage. |
| 18:01.50 | CBG | JeffM2501: you can SEE your radar, no?? |
| 18:01.54 | orange | I've heard of rico predictors |
| 18:01.54 | Chestal | Mr_Molez: speed, turn rate, shot speed |
| 18:01.56 | JeffM2501 | trepan did :) |
| 18:02.00 | Mr_Molez | Chestal: ah ok thanks :) |
| 18:02.02 | TheBarron | I started surveying players, and found that the good ones mostly play completely by radar, or at least a LOT by radar.. |
| 18:02.04 | DTRemenak | oops, sorry :) |
| 18:02.07 | orange | rico prediction is cheating, imho |
| 18:02.15 | JeffM2501 | CBG, I have a rare disability where I can only see the 3d portions of 3d games. |
| 18:02.28 | JeffM2501 | my brain blocks out the old 2d parts |
| 18:02.32 | CBG | Haha. Get a doctors note and I'll accept your point. |
| 18:02.35 | Mr_Molez | TheBarron: u got that survey i would be interested who plays radar and not :P |
| 18:02.42 | Chestal | orange: no question there, that is clearly cheating |
| 18:02.46 | TheBarron | rico prediction is cheating? What about the radar shot leading lines? |
| 18:02.50 | TheBarron | oh wait.. |
| 18:02.52 | DTRemenak | CBG: it's a real condition...eyecandyphilia |
| 18:02.59 | TheBarron | those don't show rico until it's rico'd.. |
| 18:03.02 | JeffM2501 | doctors are against my religon |
| 18:03.07 | JeffM2501 | god told me I was disabled |
| 18:03.09 | DTRemenak | hehe |
| 18:03.14 | orange | Chestal: some of the definitions being thrown out would not include rico prediction as a cheat |
| 18:03.32 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, it's more like FPSitism |
| 18:04.13 | orange | in the real world, if bullets bounced off of walls and buildings like that (heh), a military tank would certainly show rico prediction as an aiming option |
| 18:04.35 | JeffM2501 | real world tanks do have sensors to detect incoming shots |
| 18:04.41 | Mr_Molez | what is this line people are talking about ? |
| 18:04.41 | JeffM2501 | as well as the final location of there shots |
| 18:04.57 | orange | Mr_Molez: you should recognize it, you've been back and forth across it a couple times ;-) |
| 18:04.58 | TheBarron | Mr_Molez: I've stirred the pot about what is cheating and what isn't |
| 18:05.12 | JeffM2501 | on a real tank IIRC, you say " make the shot hit this thing" and the computer takes care of the rest |
| 18:05.31 | JeffM2501 | TheBarron, actualy everyone but one aggrees with you ;) |
| 18:05.41 | TheBarron | heh |
| 18:05.45 | siggraph | the key being that bz doesn't do the prediction for you, so if someone modifies the client to do this, it's providing an unfair advantage to that player |
| 18:05.52 | JeffM2501 | heck most warfare is now all missle based :) |
| 18:05.53 | DTRemenak | orange: rico prediction presents information that would otherwise be unavailable...so under my definition, that's cheating. personally I consider that fairly mild, since I can do it in my head... |
| 18:05.56 | JeffM2501 | everyone has GM |
| 18:05.57 | TheBarron | I think cheating is kinda like porn... you know it when you see it! :) |
| 18:06.20 | CBG | DTRemenak: whatever. |
| 18:06.20 | CBG | And my god told me that you're just being facetious now. |
| 18:06.37 | JeffM2501 | my gods can kick your god's ass |
| 18:06.40 | TheBarron | course, really good players, and lagged players often look a lot like it :) |
| 18:06.54 | TheBarron | w000.. he has multiple gods |
| 18:06.55 | JeffM2501 | yeah lag comp needs to go in |
| 18:07.06 | JeffM2501 | that would help a lot |
| 18:07.11 | JeffM2501 | I hope |
| 18:07.14 | DTRemenak | heh...lag...the nude beach of bzflag.... |
| 18:07.20 | TheBarron | heh |
| 18:07.40 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: the source is out there... ;) |
| 18:07.49 | JeffM2501 | I know |
| 18:08.19 | orange | DTRemenak: I agree, but it is very hard to say what that is... this started with a question about an extra line on radar, which is also something that is unavailable if you can't visualize it |
| 18:08.19 | JeffM2501 | mostly I just like to see what other apps can do |
| 18:08.25 | JeffM2501 | cus it's reasonable for us to get close to them |
| 18:08.31 | JeffM2501 | performance wise |
| 18:08.46 | DTRemenak | orange: there's no calculation involved in drawing said line...it's an extension of an already-available line |
| 18:08.54 | JeffM2501 | and HL2 is FRIGIN PURDY |
| 18:09.11 | DTRemenak | drawing a new bend with a calculated reflection angle is presenting new information |
| 18:09.17 | JeffM2501 | TheBarron, make it a config option ;) |
| 18:09.25 | TheBarron | :) |
| 18:09.30 | orange | DTRemenak: fine line :-) |
| 18:09.39 | DTRemenak | orange: never said it wasn't :) |
| 18:10.03 | JeffM2501 | I think it all comes down to how much advantage somone gets |
| 18:10.23 | JeffM2501 | if it just makes you happyer or more comfortable. then its' not so bad |
| 18:11.09 | DTRemenak | orange: btw, that line would say that the shot reload counters were cheats, too :) |
| 18:11.23 | JeffM2501 | eq2 and WoW let you totaly customise your interface, noone calls that cheating |
| 18:11.25 | orange | DTRemenak: I made that exact point once |
| 18:11.30 | DTRemenak | I know :) |
| 18:11.31 | CBG | They are not an unfair advantage, damnit. |
| 18:11.33 | orange | DTRemenak: when I had it in cvs client, and others did not |
| 18:11.50 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, guild wars let you customise? |
| 18:11.55 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: yeah |
| 18:12.06 | siggraph | if you have to modify the cliet to get some benefit, even minor.. it's providing some "advantage" potentially, and that's an advantage others do not have |
| 18:12.11 | JeffM2501 | I find that more similar to bz due to the pvp aspect |
| 18:12.15 | orange | fortunately for everyone else, I don't use the shot reload counters :-) |
| 18:12.23 | CBG | siggraph: exactly! |
| 18:12.24 | DTRemenak | you can menu items onto the screen and they turn into buttons, you can drag all the indicators and controls around on the screen |
| 18:12.34 | JeffM2501 | cool so we lock it down to closed source, problem solved |
| 18:12.37 | DTRemenak | change sizes and positions and so on |
| 18:12.52 | siggraph | we can nullify that by making it a feature, but it doesn't change the nature of the change in the meantime -- or justify making the change regardless |
| 18:13.15 | JeffM2501 | is changing the texture of tanks to be more visable a cheat? |
| 18:13.27 | JeffM2501 | you can do that with out modifying code |
| 18:13.42 | JeffM2501 | in games with green tanks it can be a huge advantage |
| 18:13.51 | TheBarron | might as well make it closed source :) |
| 18:13.54 | DTRemenak | orange: if anyone had really cared, we probably would have pushed the reload counters back to a protocol change. |
| 18:14.03 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: only to noobs :P |
| 18:14.12 | JeffM2501 | question still stands |
| 18:14.16 | JeffM2501 | it's a non source mod |
| 18:14.20 | JeffM2501 | that we didn't intend |
| 18:14.28 | JeffM2501 | since it's not a config option |
| 18:14.29 | orange | DTRemenak: right, and I was actually not serious about that one, though some people might certainly consider it an issue |
| 18:14.42 | DTRemenak | Chestal: the best players have timing down anyway, on low-shot servers |
| 18:14.56 | JeffM2501 | cus then I guess I was cheating when I was making the new ones |
| 18:15.01 | orange | or they sit there and bang on the fire key until another shot comes out :-) |
| 18:15.06 | DTRemenak | the counters help people on high-shot servers, and people who haven't played enough to figure out the timing |
| 18:15.27 | Chestal | too much information on the screen just confuses me anyway |
| 18:15.38 | JeffM2501 | orange, you don't just tape yours down? I do |
| 18:15.46 | orange | JeffM2501: lol |
| 18:15.54 | JeffM2501 | every server I see is like 10000 shots |
| 18:15.56 | DTRemenak | is it cheating to tape down your fire button? :) |
| 18:16.05 | orange | fire enhancement |
| 18:16.06 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: no wonder u dont like the game u play at the wrong places :P |
| 18:16.10 | DTRemenak | that's like botting, man... |
| 18:16.12 | JeffM2501 | if you don't agree your just leting the cheaters win |
| 18:16.29 | Chestal | the server list shoudl sort by player count divided by number of shots |
| 18:16.41 | JeffM2501 | Mr_Molez, oh I'm just saying from when I test, just seems the top 5 servers are usualy high shot frag fests |
| 18:16.41 | *** join/#bzflag delusional_ (n=A-Delusi@pool-141-158-90-152.pitt.east.verizon.net) |
| 18:16.57 | DTRemenak | sad but true |
| 18:17.03 | JeffM2501 | whoot, I'm not the only person who mistypes "should" |
| 18:17.17 | siggraph | I'd say not, that'snot really modifying the "game" itself and is a capability that everyone has, provided by the infrastructure of bzflag and everyone can change this without changing what we provide |
| 18:17.27 | siggraph | (not to the texture change) |
| 18:17.27 | *** join/#bzflag kenzo (n=51c6202b@zeebrothers.net) |
| 18:17.53 | DTRemenak | ultimately it's up to the server owners to decide what's cheating and what's not anyway |
| 18:18.01 | JeffM2501 | this is true |
| 18:18.10 | siggraph | it's akin to setting a vars variable in your conf that turns something on/off -- that's part of the infrastructure we provide .. maybe bad design, but not "cheating" per se |
| 18:18.20 | JeffM2501 | unless you want to go closed source and big brother |
| 18:18.24 | JeffM2501 | bzflag 1984! |
| 18:18.25 | DTRemenak | one advantage of a highly distributed system is that we don't have to make this kind of decision :) |
| 18:18.55 | Mr_Molez | so i could setup and a server and its my decision to say god mode for example is not cheating :P |
| 18:19.08 | JeffM2501 | there are servers that do that now |
| 18:19.09 | DTRemenak | Mr_Molez: most people who do that just say "cheating is allowed" |
| 18:19.13 | Mr_Molez | lol true |
| 18:19.15 | DTRemenak | but yeah, you could say that |
| 18:19.21 | JeffM2501 | we consider them poorly admined servers |
| 18:19.29 | Mr_Molez | yeh but cheat servers aint allowed on the server list |
| 18:19.35 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) |
| 18:19.35 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 18:19.36 | CBG | Mr_Molez's servers are poorly adminned anyway. :P |
| 18:19.40 | JeffM2501 | they can't advertise |
| 18:19.42 | JeffM2501 | it's a fine line |
| 18:19.45 | DTRemenak | they can't? |
| 18:19.55 | DTRemenak | hmph...when'd we change that? |
| 18:20.17 | JeffM2501 | bsaicly can't publcly promote cheating on public clients |
| 18:20.23 | Mr_Molez | i think devs should make a clear line to stop cheat servers being on the list |
| 18:20.26 | DTRemenak | ah, ok |
| 18:20.26 | TheBarron | that's kind of odd. If they advertise as cheat servers, then why not? |
| 18:20.42 | JeffM2501 | because it promotes cheating |
| 18:20.46 | JeffM2501 | they can if they change protocoll |
| 18:21.32 | JeffM2501 | Mr_Molez, it is prety clear, it can't say anything about cheating and be on a public protocoll |
| 18:21.33 | *** join/#bzflag HighKarateKitty (n=HighKara@ip68-98-16-242.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 18:21.43 | JeffM2501 | but we can't enforce any rules on specific servers |
| 18:21.45 | Mr_Molez | k :P |
| 18:22.13 | JeffM2501 | it's very rare that we have to ban a server from listing |
| 18:22.18 | JeffM2501 | IIRC I only know of 2 |
| 18:22.41 | Mr_Molez | whos were those ? |
| 18:22.50 | JeffM2501 | a kightmare one |
| 18:22.52 | JeffM2501 | and some other |
| 18:22.55 | Mr_Molez | ahh |
| 18:23.02 | DTRemenak | and mofo ;) |
| 18:23.03 | JeffM2501 | probably not even valid bans anymore |
| 18:23.13 | JeffM2501 | mofo was banned for like a day yes |
| 18:23.19 | Mr_Molez | lol . why ? |
| 18:23.27 | JeffM2501 | they used to spell out mofo |
| 18:23.27 | DTRemenak | they spelled out the server name |
| 18:23.33 | Mr_Molez | hahah |
| 18:23.39 | JeffM2501 | that is also another rule |
| 18:23.41 | DTRemenak | and didn't leave contact information |
| 18:23.47 | DTRemenak | so we couldn't say "hey dude, change this" |
| 18:24.02 | JeffM2501 | he came here talked about it, and got it settled tho |
| 18:24.04 | JeffM2501 | prety fast |
| 18:24.32 | DTRemenak | yeah, he was polite and cooperative. really wish more people were :) |
| 18:26.55 | JeffM2501 | yay for lunchtime |
| 18:26.58 | TheBarron | apparently, that's a lost art |
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| 18:46.44 | uso | JeffM2501: it's not _that_ bad, the top 10 servers have an average of 4 shots, used to be worse |
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| 18:55.44 | TrBtheSane | Chestal: reload counters? what are reload counters? ;) |
| 19:14.00 | EbErT | ping CBG |
| 19:14.19 | CBG | EbErT: pong |
| 19:14.42 | EbErT | do you know someone who has a script to change songs in itunes while running bz? |
| 19:14.46 | EbErT | on mac |
| 19:15.30 | EbErT | i've been wanting that a while, 2 ppl said they were working on it (wish i knew how) |
| 19:15.32 | CBG | in windowed mode, you can use the SizzlingKeys plugin thing |
| 19:15.43 | CBG | no way that I know of if bz is in full screen |
| 19:15.48 | EbErT | i play fullscreen tho |
| 19:15.57 | CBG | but I always have bz in a window that is the size of my whole screen |
| 19:16.02 | EbErT | pretty sure u can use a script to make a key do it |
| 19:16.15 | CBG | then I don't know. |
| 19:16.18 | EbErT | like how the volume and brightness buttons still work |
| 19:16.27 | CBG | why not run bz in window mode? :) |
| 19:16.41 | EbErT | does it do well that way in your ibook? |
| 19:17.00 | EbErT | it gives me fake lag, screen smaller, fps probs |
| 19:17.04 | CBG | you mean, does bzflag perform as well? |
| 19:17.09 | blast007 | hehe, that reminds me of a modification I had made to a 1.7 client way back when |
| 19:17.10 | CBG | i dont notice anything different |
| 19:17.14 | blast007 | it could control Winamp :) |
| 19:17.25 | CBG | you poor thing, blast007 . |
| 19:17.49 | EbErT | do you play windowed most of the time tho, CBG ? |
| 19:18.03 | CBG | always. |
| 19:18.04 | blast007 | CBG: heh |
| 19:18.15 | EbErT | hmm |
| 19:18.25 | CBG | but didnt notice anything when I used to play full-screen, versus playing now. |
| 19:18.37 | CBG | why not try windowed for a few days |
| 19:18.50 | EbErT | i guess u limit your mouse so it doesn't go down to the application bar |
| 19:19.46 | blast007 | http://www.pol-online.net/index.php?page=freeware (look at the last one) |
| 19:19.48 | EbErT | i pull it all the way down and the app bar pops up- minor things like that bug me |
| 19:19.57 | CBG | EbErT: i use keyboard |
| 19:20.13 | CBG | though it is annoying to bring up the dock though |
| 19:20.21 | EbErT | ah, so its easier for u |
| 19:20.35 | EbErT | maybe if i try limiting the mouse |
| 19:20.39 | CBG | yeah, you could limit the mouse |
| 19:20.57 | CBG | and if you do need to get out of bz into another app (wihtout quitting bz) use the command-tab trick :) |
| 19:21.28 | EbErT | yeah, i'll try that for a little while |
| 19:21.35 | EbErT | thx |
| 19:21.39 | CBG | nnp |
| 19:21.41 | CBG | np* |
| 19:22.10 | EbErT | blast007: that and sizzling keys don't work with bzflag fullscreen |
| 19:22.27 | EbErT | most hotkeys don't except volume and brightness buttons |
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| 19:22.58 | blast007 | hmm, k |
| 19:24.15 | blast007 | hotkeys work for me in Windows XP ;) |
| 19:25.22 | EbErT | yeah, dunno why it does that.. real lame |
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| 19:50.12 | JeffM2501 | uso, well that's good to know |
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| 22:59.18 | a_meteorite | anyone here in europe with bandwidth to spare? |
| 23:00.12 | Mr_Molez | me :P |
| 23:00.37 | a_meteorite | do you think you can host a plosileague mirror? |
| 23:01.08 | Mr_Molez | doubt ppl will wanna play on my server :P |
| 23:01.20 | a_meteorite | is it laggy? |
| 23:01.24 | Mr_Molez | no |
| 23:01.35 | Mr_Molez | just i have a bad rep ;) |
| 23:01.38 | a_meteorite | heh |
| 23:03.46 | a_meteorite | know anyone else in europe? |
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| 23:05.04 | Mr_Molez | pimpi :P |
| 23:05.17 | CBG | brad would do it, Im sure |
| 23:05.25 | CBG | hes' back from hols in a week or so |
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| 23:22.36 | JeffM2501 | where in europe is your server Mr_Molez ? |
| 23:23.08 | Mr_Molez | germany |
| 23:23.14 | JeffM2501 | how much it run? |
| 23:23.19 | Mr_Molez | what u mean |
| 23:23.21 | JeffM2501 | we were looking at geting a list server there |
| 23:23.22 | JeffM2501 | cost |
| 23:23.28 | JeffM2501 | or is it a home server? |
| 23:23.34 | Mr_Molez | 30 euros per month |
| 23:23.42 | JeffM2501 | how much space/bandwith? |
| 23:23.46 | Mr_Molez | 1tb per month |
| 23:23.49 | Mr_Molez | 20gb hdd |
| 23:23.52 | JeffM2501 | nice |
| 23:23.55 | Mr_Molez | 100mbit connection |
| 23:24.12 | JeffM2501 | sounds very reasonable |
| 23:24.21 | Mr_Molez | yup |
| 23:25.45 | CBG | 30euros = about L15, Mr_Molez ? |
| 23:25.52 | Mr_Molez | £20 |
| 23:25.53 | CBG | s/L/"pound-sign" |
| 23:25.58 | CBG | ok, not bad |
| 23:26.52 | Mr_Molez | the same in UK would cost atleast £60 per month :P |
| 23:27.55 | CBG | :( |
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| 23:34.42 | Mr_Molez | how will the client know to use the eu server list instead of the us one ? |
| 23:41.50 | a_meteorite | Mr_Molez: they would program it :) |
| 23:42.11 | Mr_Molez | a_meteorite: ;) |
| 23:42.50 | a_meteorite | it would do a round-robin dns to get a server, it returns a list, the client pings them and picks the lowest ping |
| 23:42.59 | a_meteorite | that's it in a nutshell |
| 23:43.33 | Mr_Molez | just what i was thinking :P |
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