| 03:05.42 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
| 03:05.42 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org/ || http://my.BZFlag.org/bb/ || http://my.BZFlag.org/ || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/Download || #bzchat if you just want to chat || paste errors to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || BZFlag 2.0.4 Released! |
| 03:05.42 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 03:06.45 | bryjen | this is on your server, works OK on mine with an old world |
| 03:10.27 | *** join/#bzflag titmouse (n=Administ@ool-44c6fb7d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 03:10.29 | titmouse | hi :) |
| 03:10.45 | titmouse | is there a win32 binary of bzadmin? |
| 03:11.05 | titmouse | oh nvm lol |
| 03:11.05 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/BackgroundRenderer.cxx: another test, without using vertex arrays |
| 03:11.11 | titmouse | it's in the program file dir |
| 03:16.40 | trepan | bryjen: care to try that one? |
| 03:17.35 | bryjen | building again |
| 03:18.28 | bryjen | is it compiling things twice, with some .o's going into .libs/ ? |
| 03:18.57 | trepan | thank libtool |
| 03:19.32 | bryjen | bah |
| 03:20.51 | trepan | there's a -prefer-non-pic switch for libtool in compile mode, but it isn't being used |
| 03:21.16 | trepan | there are reports that it doesn't work on hpux |
| 03:21.30 | bryjen | and that matters to us? |
| 03:22.30 | trepan | dunno, just mentionned it to show hint that it isn't entirely reliable |
| 03:23.31 | bryjen | yeah, i see. |
| 03:24.02 | titmouse | why does bzadmin exit after i try to say something on the server? |
| 03:26.14 | bryjen | feel free to slap me around for this; i'd also stuck -O3 into cflags... could that be causing any issues? |
| 03:26.58 | trepan | bryjen: i wouldn't think so, think it's an ATI driver/hw bug |
| 03:27.18 | titmouse | oh, so you can't use bzadmin just to talk? |
| 03:27.19 | trepan | get to try that last change yet? |
| 03:28.06 | bryjen | working on a full build without -O3. remaking the world, twice :( |
| 03:29.08 | SportChick | orange or jomojo: ping |
| 03:29.36 | jomojo | sportchick: pongo |
| 03:29.43 | jomojo | what's going on? |
| 03:30.24 | titmouse | i'm going to mod my bzadmin... using ncurses |
| 03:30.35 | titmouse | and colorful |
| 03:38.23 | *** join/#bzflag Silent_Swan (n=silent@adsl-64-108-223-145.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net) |
| 03:38.33 | JeffM2501 | I like pie |
| 03:38.46 | Silent_Swan | mmm |
| 03:38.53 | JeffM2501 | everyone likes pie |
| 03:40.24 | bryjen | in soviet russia, pie likes YOU! |
| 03:40.32 | bryjen | hmm, that doesn't sound so bad... |
| 03:40.55 | learner | it's not supposed to be compiling twice, something else is going "wrong" .. I've only briefly looked into it, but libtool is determining that static-only won't work and decides to build both regardless of the -static flag |
| 03:41.25 | BenUrban | needs butter |
| 03:41.26 | Silent_Swan | would you like butter? |
| 03:41.28 | Silent_Swan | :) |
| 03:41.30 | BenUrban | lol |
| 03:41.35 | bryjen | parkay! |
| 03:42.26 | JeffM2501 | does it ever bother you that butter is just foamed milk? |
| 03:43.18 | bryjen | nope. nor cheese |
| 03:43.27 | JeffM2501 | how was cheeese invetned |
| 03:43.35 | JeffM2501 | and who was teh poor bastard to beta test it? |
| 03:43.37 | JeffM2501 | " |
| 03:43.43 | JeffM2501 | "here try this...." |
| 03:43.47 | Silent_Swan | not just that, but how about milk? |
| 03:43.53 | Silent_Swan | who thought of THAT? |
| 03:43.56 | learner | trepan, the intent of the -prefer-non-pic flag isn't to prevent double-comp -- it's to prevent making shared libs with -fPIC objects. |
| 03:44.03 | JeffM2501 | babys :) |
| 03:44.06 | BenUrban | lol |
| 03:44.12 | Silent_Swan | yeah, but a cow?? |
| 03:44.19 | Silent_Swan | probably a lonely farmer |
| 03:44.22 | BenUrban | LOL |
| 03:44.24 | JeffM2501 | baby cows :) |
| 03:44.29 | BenUrban | a farmer without a wife |
| 03:44.29 | bryjen | more probably, "there's nothing left to eat but _this_ stuff..." |
| 03:44.32 | BenUrban | single father |
| 03:44.35 | JeffM2501 | "hey that looks GOOD!" |
| 03:44.39 | BenUrban | needed to feed the baby |
| 03:45.04 | BenUrban | you'd be surprised what might happen if you get desperate enough |
| 03:45.17 | learner | regardless, it just needs a little investigating into why libtool is not doing exactly what it's told |
| 03:45.22 | Silent_Swan | BenUrban tell me about it :( |
| 03:45.28 | BenUrban | .... |
| 03:45.37 | BenUrban | now that sounded just a bit too interesting to just let go |
| 03:45.41 | JeffM2501 | well the evidence of how COWS became domesticated can be taken in rather iteresting weays |
| 03:45.57 | trepan | learner: -static is being put in LDFLAGS, post-compilation |
| 03:48.32 | JeffM2501 | if you have to feed the baby, make sure you pick the right type of cow :) |
| 03:51.31 | Silent_Swan | *moo* |
| 03:51.37 | learner | trepan, which is part of the problem.. we don't obey the flags rules for which flags are supposed to and not supposed to be modified |
| 03:52.00 | learner | cflags vs am_cflags vs bzflag_cflags etc |
| 03:52.32 | learner | ldflags being used as libs, libs not being used much at all, cflags being used as cppflags |
| 03:52.44 | learner | a bit of a mess |
| 03:58.20 | bryjen | rats. still not right. |
| 04:00.27 | bryjen | also, observer still locks up |
| 04:01.09 | trepan | crash or loop? |
| 04:02.39 | bryjen | frozen and non-responsive to input. mouse pointer moves. looks like its overwriten the text at least once |
| 04:08.54 | bryjen | hmm |
| 04:09.03 | bryjen | 0x080b0e86 in HUDRenderer::setHeading (this=0xbf9ec200, angle=-nan(0x7fffff)) at HUDRenderer.cxx:321 |
| 04:09.05 | bryjen | 321 while (heading < 0.0f) heading += 360.0f; |
| 04:10.03 | bryjen | heading is computed from angle |
| 04:25.20 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/ChangeLog: no lies, 'someone' swapped in a different automatic team icon at the last minute |
| 04:26.24 | trepan | oops, hadn't intended to do that |
| 04:27.31 | trepan | brlcad: feel free to put it back, that one is too light anyways |
| 04:27.47 | trepan | or i shall, upon request |
| 04:28.06 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/configure.ac: disable building shared libs in order to prevent double-compilation of (PIC and non-PIC) object files. this isn't necessary when the flags are used correctly..needs to be fixed. |
| 04:28.30 | learner | trepan, heh, I don't care.. I just didn't think the changelog should say i did that when I didn't :) |
| 04:29.48 | learner | not a bad design, regardless |
| 04:31.20 | trepan | the orig: http://trepan.homelinux.net/autoicon.png |
| 04:33.28 | learner | you have the original template? |
| 04:33.56 | trepan | not really, i took the one DTRemenak mentionned and cloned it clean |
| 04:34.16 | trepan | (i.e. removed the ? =) |
| 04:34.20 | learner | ahh |
| 04:34.35 | learner | yeah, that's what I did too |
| 04:34.56 | learner | had to darken up that bottom half some, though -- that one is lighter than the colored ones |
| 04:37.11 | learner | i do like how you have all the colors |
| 04:37.40 | sgk284 | yea its a nice design |
| 04:38.07 | learner | even if the other one was to be used, I'd probably have to mod it now to two too.. 5 lines instead of 4 |
| 04:39.16 | trepan | woohoo, one file, one compile |
| 04:39.24 | trepan | ~learner++ =) |
| 04:39.29 | learner | heh |
| 04:40.51 | learner | you can see when it's linking how the flags are all screwy.. passing all the overridden ldflags like "-lz -lssl -lcrypto -lz" on the libtool link line before it does the ar |
| 04:41.47 | learner | fortunately libtool knows to ignore them for a static archive.. |
| 04:44.20 | trepan | compiles faster too :) |
| 04:45.39 | trepan | to be fair, you'd have to add in the "increased compilation time by 50%" |
| 04:45.44 | learner | =) |
| 04:45.45 | trepan | ack |
| 04:55.35 | bryjen | the ground is black, except when i'm rotating past 45, 135, 225, or 315 degrees, the left half of the view fades in and out normal green |
| 04:58.58 | bryjen | this is at trepan.bzflag.bz:5433. works fine at bryjen.bzflag.org (a madcity world) |
| 05:07.30 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03trepan * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/Roaming.cxx: avoid roam mode segvs (ex: switching servers while tracking a player) |
| 05:10.37 | *** join/#bzflag lan56 (i=lan56@user-vcaut25.dsl.mindspring.com) |
| 05:17.34 | *** join/#bzflag silverfox (i=vircuser@68-116-47-254.static.mdfd.or.charter.com) |
| 05:19.55 | *** part/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@2002:45a6:86ae:0:0:0:0:1) |
| 05:46.55 | SportChick | someone's hacked the mac d/l of 2.0.4 |
| 05:46.59 | SportChick | now points to msn |
| 05:47.47 | SportChick | brlcad: ping |
| 05:56.08 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 05:56.09 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 05:56.22 | *** part/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=jeffm@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
| 05:58.33 | *** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (n=Julio@98.Red-80-36-59.staticIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 06:16.38 | *** join/#bzflag Punkus (n=chris@202.89.145.209) |
| 06:16.41 | Punkus | hi |
| 06:16.55 | Punkus | i have bzflag-2.0.3.20050927 |
| 06:17.03 | Punkus | is this the same as 2.0.4? |
| 06:17.14 | Punkus | or should i grab 2.0.4 |
| 06:21.15 | brad2901 | 'tis the same |
| 06:21.30 | Punkus | ok, thanks |
| 06:21.35 | brad2901 | =) |
| 06:21.53 | Punkus | ==)) |
| 06:31.16 | *** join/#bzflag lan56 (i=lan56@user-vcautkd.dsl.mindspring.com) |
| 06:31.17 | DTRemenak | no, it is not the same. 2.0.3.20050930 is the same as 2.0.4. |
| 06:31.28 | Punkus | umm |
| 06:31.34 | DTRemenak | you are using RC5, which is missing bugfixes |
| 06:32.01 | Punkus | so, i should grab the latest from the site? |
| 06:32.24 | DTRemenak | probably should, yeah. if you aren't having problems then it doesn't really matter. |
| 06:32.37 | Punkus | well |
| 06:32.45 | Punkus | i am having problems grabbing flasgs |
| 06:32.51 | Punkus | flags( |
| 06:32.53 | Punkus | flags* |
| 06:33.13 | Punkus | sometimes, when i get one, bzflag crashes |
| 06:35.10 | brad2901 | oops ^^ |
| 06:35.15 | Punkus | lol |
| 06:35.29 | SportChick | Pinkus it is NOT the same |
| 06:35.34 | SportChick | DTRemenak: ping |
| 06:35.38 | DTRemenak | pong |
| 06:35.47 | SportChick | DTRemenak: can you check the mac link for 2.0.4 |
| 06:35.53 | DTRemenak | where? |
| 06:35.53 | SportChick | seems to have been hacked to lead to msn |
| 06:35.58 | SportChick | bzflag.org |
| 06:36.42 | Punkus | it goes to microsoft |
| 06:37.47 | brad2901 | works for me |
| 06:38.05 | brad2901 | what browser? IE? |
| 06:38.18 | DTRemenak | just had two http://'s on it. should work now. |
| 06:39.08 | SportChick | i'll try it |
| 06:39.40 | SportChick | ty |
| 06:39.47 | SportChick | works fine |
| 06:48.06 | *** join/#bzflag ToughShooter (n=ts@p54B003B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 06:51.16 | *** join/#bzflag kahcepb[Ru] (n=den@213.189.217.163) |
| 06:59.13 | Punkus | gtg |
| 06:59.14 | Punkus | bye all |
| 07:06.00 | *** join/#bzflag LePoulpe303 (n=Miranda@AMontpellier-251-1-9-199.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 07:07.23 | LePoulpe303 | Hi all |
| 07:32.47 | silverfox | refresh my memory. "group" is to place a previously defined object, right? |
| 07:36.30 | silverfox | and an include is simply: |
| 07:36.40 | silverfox | include /path/to/includedmapfile |
| 07:36.45 | silverfox | right? |
| 07:37.49 | trepan | yup |
| 07:38.38 | trepan | 'include' works best with full pathnames |
| 07:39.46 | trepan | include also works with http://etc... |
| 07:45.08 | trepan | ex: include http://trepan.bzflag.bz/lcd_test.bzw :) |
| 07:49.22 | trepan | http:// is rather nice, you can browse through the map and view the textures and sources |
| 07:51.16 | silverfox | Can I define an object that contains several other previously defined objects? |
| 07:51.42 | trepan | yup |
| 08:20.15 | ToughShooter | http://pastebin.com/383585 <- Hmm |
| 08:23.31 | ToughShooter | That was with checkout from anon CVS 2 hours ago |
| 08:29.31 | trepan | it could be that ROAM.getTargetTank() is returning NULL |
| 08:49.03 | *** join/#bzflag mmu_man (i=revol@ALyon-253-1-7-102.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 08:53.59 | ToughShooter | also one time I was observing the game and decided to join, choose automatic as team and joined as red but I still was in observer mode |
| 08:55.53 | trepan | that bug my already have been squashed |
| 08:56.03 | trepan | s/my/may have |
| 09:09.45 | *** join/#bzflag mmu_man (i=revol@ALyon-253-1-7-102.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 09:33.18 | brlcad | SportyGal: what are you talking about? looks fine to me |
| 09:42.29 | Chestal | what kind of? |
| 09:42.57 | brlcad | good morning orchid |
| 09:43.06 | brlcad | and Chestal |
| 09:44.11 | orchid | Chestal: nothing fancy, regular orange pekoe |
| 09:45.25 | Chestal | brlcad: shouldn't you be in bed? |
| 09:45.35 | Chestal | orchid: and you, too? |
| 09:46.27 | brlcad | Chestal: probably |
| 09:46.27 | Chestal | nice autumn day here, time for some hot tea on the balcony in the sun |
| 09:46.49 | brlcad | but then I might just go to the gym, my body is refusing sleep for some reason |
| 09:47.24 | orchid | I might go to the gym so I got up early, but now I might just go to my Mom's for breakfast instead |
| 09:47.57 | Chestal | orchid: gym first, then breakfast. It tastes better that way :-) |
| 09:55.41 | orchid | its going to be really hot here again today |
| 09:56.45 | brlcad | the past two days have been the most pleasant autumn cool here |
| 09:57.04 | orchid | it was 29C yesterday |
| 09:57.12 | Chestal | uuh |
| 09:57.35 | Chestal | sounds unusual for this time of the year? |
| 09:57.53 | Chestal | aren't you supposed to have cold weather in Canada? |
| 09:58.02 | orchid | well yes |
| 09:58.28 | orchid | I think we are global warming victims |
| 09:59.31 | Chestal | the 20C here are within normal bounds |
| 09:59.33 | brlcad | it should get to a high of about 26C today |
| 10:08.32 | *** join/#bzflag Birdie (n=Birdie__@d54C34DE9.access.telenet.be) |
| 10:23.53 | Birdie | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5460 |
| 10:23.55 | Birdie | boo for spamming |
| 10:24.33 | *** join/#bzflag newbie_dont (n=newbie_d@fwt.computerland.pl) |
| 11:24.46 | *** join/#bzflag brad2901` (i=brad@unaffiliated/brad2901) |
| 11:43.19 | *** join/#bzflag mmu_man (i=revol@ALyon-253-1-27-104.w83-205.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 12:06.46 | Birdie | meacan ping |
| 12:55.25 | *** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (n=I_Died_O@pcp0010382004pcs.savana01.ga.comcast.net) |
| 13:26.43 | *** join/#bzflag bz9549 (n=3e9dc602@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 13:27.52 | *** join/#bzflag Knock (n=3e9dc602@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 13:30.01 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@63.147.94.151) |
| 13:58.45 | bryjen | ah-hah. observer mode works when compiled --enable-debug, but locks up otherwise |
| 13:59.15 | bryjen | !seen DTRemenak |
| 13:59.15 | TheLastSpartan | bryjen: DTRemenak was last seen here 7 hours, 20 minutes, and 56 seconds ago saying: <DTRemenak> just had two http://'s on it. should work now. |
| 14:03.58 | Grumbler | ~spell promienent |
| 14:15.37 | Grumbler | ~spell competant |
| 14:36.26 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=atupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 14:36.27 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 14:39.12 | *** join/#bzflag bz9433 (n=183d4179@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 14:45.35 | menotume | Grumbler must be writing something about me |
| 14:51.24 | menotume | I'm getting a compile error on src/common/AccessList.cxx (looks like regex something) |
| 14:54.09 | menotume | ahh, that would be INcompetant :) |
| 14:54.41 | *** join/#bzflag SportChick (n=SportChi@ca-redbch-cuda1-c3b-a-40.stmnca.adelphia.net) |
| 14:54.48 | menotume | did someone remove an #include "bzregex.h" from a header recently ? |
| 14:55.00 | menotume | SC did it ! |
| 14:58.01 | *** join/#bzflag blast007 (n=blast007@198.150.76.4) |
| 14:59.02 | brlcad | she's always breaking stuff |
| 14:59.23 | menotume | i don't see any changes in cvs log in past 2 days that would do it |
| 14:59.30 | menotume | any1 getting an error ? |
| 14:59.46 | menotume | 'any1 else' |
| 15:00.03 | ToughShooter | not this morning with anon cvs |
| 15:00.10 | menotume | k, thx |
| 15:00.59 | menotume | it's probably me |
| 15:03.14 | ToughShooter | still compiles for me :) |
| 15:03.21 | menotume | k, thx |
| 15:04.08 | menotume | i had a strange occurance during a 'make clean' in a plugin dir earlier |
| 15:04.20 | menotume | probably borked something |
| 15:08.25 | Grumbler | menotume, i was making the point that any competent illustrator would not make the characters look like they are on crystal meth for a kids book |
| 15:08.48 | menotume | lol, well put :) |
| 15:09.12 | Grumbler | see john run.....see john shoot up.....see john glassy eyed with big hair |
| 15:09.35 | Grumbler | its sad |
| 15:09.38 | Grumbler | actually |
| 15:10.46 | menotume | hair that looks like they're being electrified ? |
| 15:13.51 | brlcad | what's the exact error? |
| 15:14.15 | menotume | don't have it now - rebuilding ... |
| 15:14.27 | menotume | it was REG_something undeclared |
| 15:14.45 | menotume | i think it was something that happened earlier today |
| 15:15.05 | menotume | i did a 'make clean' in my new plugin dir, and it started doing all kinds of stuff |
| 15:18.02 | brlcad | probably because configure.ac was updated |
| 15:24.23 | menotume | could be |
| 15:24.33 | menotume | yep, it built |
| 15:25.13 | menotume | thx brlcad, ToughShooter |
| 15:41.22 | menotume | brlcad: now my .so isn't being built for my plugin :) |
| 15:41.29 | menotume | what do i need to do ? |
| 15:42.19 | menotume | seems like all plugins |
| 15:44.40 | Pimpinella | join #prism54 |
| 15:47.28 | menotume | whay am i in #prism54 again ? |
| 15:47.39 | menotume | hehe |
| 15:51.23 | menotume | Pimpinella: just ask your question (but be prepared to wait a while) HEHE |
| 15:52.08 | Pimpinella | yeah, you really have to wait..... |
| 15:53.17 | Pimpinella | i know that channel and gave far more answers than i actually got |
| 15:53.27 | menotume | ahh, someone will help tehn |
| 15:53.56 | Pimpinella | but the average reaction time is only about 54 hours, so... |
| 15:54.07 | menotume | I would answer you if I even understood the question :p |
| 15:54.13 | brlcad | menotume: hmmmm :) |
| 15:54.13 | menotume | lol |
| 15:54.31 | menotume | brlcad: is there something i could put in the local Makefile ? |
| 15:54.40 | *** join/#bzflag DTRemenak (n=DTRemena@DHCP-170-143.caltech.edu) |
| 15:54.40 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v DTRemenak] by ChanServ |
| 15:55.02 | brlcad | i was just hoping that would automatically work and that it'd be smart enough to figure it out |
| 15:55.17 | menotume | hmmm ;) |
| 15:55.34 | brlcad | obviously, it's not |
| 15:55.56 | brlcad | menotume: run ./configure --enable-shared and they'll be turned back on |
| 15:56.19 | menotume | k :) |
| 15:56.31 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@12.110.19.201) |
| 15:56.31 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 15:57.13 | brlcad | menotume: does it do anything at all in the plugins dir? does it compile the .o's at least? |
| 15:58.05 | menotume | yes, and .libs/ .a and .lai |
| 15:58.36 | brlcad | interesting.. it actually made a .a.. |
| 15:59.03 | menotume | yes, and the .la symlink |
| 16:01.54 | SportyGal | brlcad: DTR fixed it |
| 16:04.03 | menotume | brlcad: is there something that we can put in the Makefile.am in the plugin dirs, so that .so are only built there ? |
| 16:04.17 | brlcad | menotume: that flag is already there |
| 16:04.26 | brlcad | the configure directive to NOT build shared libraries is overriding it |
| 16:04.53 | brlcad | so it's defaulting to static libs |
| 16:04.57 | menotume | i only see lib_LTLIBRARIES = HoldTheFlag.la |
| 16:05.46 | brlcad | -module means build a shared lib |
| 16:06.02 | brlcad | sorta |
| 16:06.53 | bryjen | ping DTRemenak |
| 16:06.56 | menotume | ohh |
| 16:07.14 | DTRemenak | pong |
| 16:07.24 | brlcad | |. |
| 16:07.38 | brlcad | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:07.48 | DTRemenak | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:08.21 | brlcad | . | |
| 16:08.29 | brlcad | aww, shuc1;2c1;2cks |
| 16:08.50 | menotume | how about -shared ? shall i try it ? |
| 16:09.02 | brlcad | sure |
| 16:09.05 | menotume | k |
| 16:12.04 | *** join/#bzflag bz5174 (n=54b31203@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 16:12.15 | bz5174 | hallo? |
| 16:13.15 | menotume | brlcad: didn't work in 'HoldTheFlag_la_LDFLAGS' - is that for .la only ? |
| 16:14.09 | brlcad | menotume: no it's not .la only.. .la is just the wrapper rule that includes all the logic about the libraries subdependencies |
| 16:14.19 | menotume | ahh, k |
| 16:14.25 | brlcad | i'd be surprised if you get it to work with the configure directive set to disable |
| 16:14.33 | menotume | bummer |
| 16:14.39 | menotume | i will try |
| 16:14.47 | DTRemenak | bryjen: ... |
| 16:16.14 | brlcad | not a total bummer.. you're supposed to be able to disable shared/static for all libraries .. bz's just got a nasty behavior of overriding flags it's not supposed to |
| 16:16.40 | Grumbler | override...i thought it was pick up |
| 16:17.38 | brlcad | menotume: you might have some luck with http://cvs.silcnet.org/source/libtoolfix |
| 16:17.59 | *** join/#bzflag silverfx (i=vircuser@68-116-47-254.static.mdfd.or.charter.com) |
| 16:18.36 | brlcad | Grumbler: the compilation/linker flags like CFLAGS, CPPFLAGS, LIBS, etc |
| 16:19.05 | brlcad | bz's not configured to use them the way they are supposed to right now |
| 16:19.18 | menotume | hmm, ok, i was hoping to find something that would work for everyone :) |
| 16:19.27 | menotume | i mean, i can do --enable-shared, that works |
| 16:20.03 | brlcad | menotume: if that script fixes the problem, it's work for everyone.. could be made a step in configure |
| 16:20.15 | Grumbler | heh.. |
| 16:21.39 | brlcad | menotume: alternatively, could probably invoke ltconfig in the plugins dir to generate a libtool script that only builds shared modules there |
| 16:23.07 | menotume | ahh |
| 16:23.18 | Grumbler | rough room |
| 16:24.55 | brlcad | yeah, the difference is in the libtool script that is generated |
| 16:25.17 | menotume | ahh, this is beyond me, but i will play a little anyway :) |
| 16:25.41 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
| 16:25.41 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 16:25.50 | Grumbler | just remember not to override the flags, but pick them up |
| 16:28.33 | *** join/#bzflag Aribeth (n=Aribeth@eacb02-00-cmmgga-70-34-176-23.atlaga.adelphia.net) |
| 16:29.35 | bryjen | observer mode works when compiled --enable-debug. normal compiles get stuck in a loop at HUDRenderer.cxx:321 |
| 16:29.52 | JeffM2501 | sounds like everyone is having fun |
| 16:30.00 | menotume | weeeeee, yes :) |
| 16:30.24 | bryjen | sorry for the lag, DTRemenak |
| 16:30.28 | Aribeth | well, i think i may have found a problem with the 2.0.4 client |
| 16:30.33 | DTRemenak | np |
| 16:30.39 | JeffM2501 | what borked? |
| 16:31.11 | bryjen | 0x080ab119 in HUDRenderer::setHeading (this=0xbf98d9a0, angle=-nan(0x7fffff)) at HUDRenderer.cxx:321 |
| 16:31.12 | Aribeth | when i leave it logged in over night my computer aill eventualy slow to a crawl and i have to kill X and reboot |
| 16:32.00 | menotume | bryjen: do you have mousebox set very small ? |
| 16:33.31 | Aribeth | anyone have a problem like this with bzflag on Linux? |
| 16:33.41 | bryjen | menotume: i don't think so. that depends on the definition of "very small" tho ;) |
| 16:33.49 | menotume | Aribeth: no, but i haven't left it overnight :) |
| 16:34.02 | DTRemenak | bryjen: call stack? |
| 16:34.07 | Aribeth | the cvs version was fine |
| 16:34.31 | menotume | bryjen: i'm just wondering if there could be a problem there. However, some players have used it at -11 for a long time |
| 16:34.36 | bryjen | #0 0x080ab119 in HUDRenderer::setHeading (this=0xbfda9270, angle=-nan(0x7fffff)) at HUDRenderer.cxx:321 |
| 16:34.38 | bryjen | #1 0x0813002b in prepareTheHUD () at Player.h:366 |
| 16:34.39 | bryjen | #2 0x08130a46 in playingLoop () at playing.cxx:5898 |
| 16:34.41 | bryjen | #3 0x08134373 in startPlaying (_display=0x8d06d25, renderer=@0x8486830) at playing.cxx:6523 |
| 16:34.42 | bryjen | #4 0x08113f31 in main (argc=2, argv=0xbfda9e34) at Singleton.h:83 |
| 16:36.05 | bryjen | #set mouseboxsize 5 so that is default |
| 16:36.12 | brlcad | Grumbler: not only that, don't modify the ones you aren't supposed to touch ;) |
| 16:36.43 | DTRemenak | bryjen: you're using an aggressive -O setting? |
| 16:37.05 | Grumbler | please define aggressive |
| 16:37.08 | bryjen | not anymore. configure sets -O2 |
| 16:37.23 | DTRemenak | hm. your line numbers don't line up |
| 16:37.58 | brlcad | in mother russia, the numbers line YOU up |
| 16:38.42 | DTRemenak | still got it running in the debugger? |
| 16:38.44 | JeffM2501 | that is probably a true statement |
| 16:40.27 | menotume | brlcad: I ran libtoolfix in the main dir. that didn't help, is there anything else i should do? |
| 16:40.53 | menotume | oh wait, i did it before ./configure :( |
| 16:41.00 | bryjen | i can start it again, but switching desktops/vts (to get back here to talk) often does Bad Things(tm) to my video :/ |
| 16:41.28 | DTRemenak | k |
| 16:42.43 | bryjen | the line it gets stuck on (I have to ^C to get out in gdb) is #321 while (heading < 0.0f) heading += 360.0f; |
| 16:42.57 | DTRemenak | yeah, because your angle is nan |
| 16:43.05 | bryjen | heading being computed from..... |
| 16:43.21 | *** join/#bzflag bz8940 (n=d44009cb@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 16:43.34 | *** join/#bzflag trepan (n=trepan@unaffiliated/trepan) |
| 16:43.37 | DTRemenak | I'd like to know _why_ your angle is nan though |
| 16:43.48 | bz8940 | Hi I have problems with using a joystick in bzflag2 |
| 16:43.49 | brlcad | because nan tastes yummy |
| 16:43.56 | JeffM2501 | proibably divided by inf :) |
| 16:43.58 | brlcad | or is that na'an |
| 16:44.02 | JeffM2501 | or something cooky likae that |
| 16:44.03 | bryjen | suggestions on where to break? |
| 16:44.12 | bz8940 | anyone here who can help me out? |
| 16:44.14 | Aribeth | yummm, nan |
| 16:44.29 | brlcad | bz8940: a little more specific please ;) |
| 16:44.33 | DTRemenak | bz8940: state the actual problem, not just that you have one :) |
| 16:44.56 | bz8940 | I can steer to the left and to the right but not move forward-backward with the joystick |
| 16:45.20 | JeffM2501 | you can't mix mouse and joystick |
| 16:45.39 | bz8940 | I tried to set it to joystick only, but that does not make a difference |
| 16:45.46 | JeffM2501 | oh stick only |
| 16:45.51 | DTRemenak | bz8940: make sure your x and y axes are set correctly |
| 16:45.54 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 16:46.02 | bz8940 | I cannot change them |
| 16:46.08 | DTRemenak | why not? |
| 16:46.13 | JeffM2501 | it may be maping forward and backward to like a Z axis or something |
| 16:47.00 | bz8940 | x-axes says: 0 |
| 16:47.05 | bz8940 | y-axes says: 1 |
| 16:47.17 | bz8940 | is that ok? |
| 16:47.42 | DTRemenak | could be. can you change y to 2 or does it only find 0 and 1? |
| 16:47.48 | JeffM2501 | depends if thsoe are the X and Y axes on your stick |
| 16:48.14 | bz8940 | I have no clue. Using a M$ sidewinder |
| 16:48.17 | DTRemenak | and, does the joystick work in other apps? |
| 16:48.33 | JeffM2501 | sidewinders have a throtle that shows as an axis |
| 16:48.33 | bz8940 | I thought I could just 'input' it at the buttons sections |
| 16:48.54 | JeffM2501 | bzflag dosnt' work that way :) |
| 16:49.02 | DTRemenak | no, it uses analog axes, more precision |
| 16:49.18 | JeffM2501 | I'll bet it maped throttle to forward and backwards |
| 16:49.25 | JeffM2501 | the stick may also have rotation |
| 16:49.35 | bz8940 | I 'll try changing the y axis to 2 (btw how do I start bzflag in window and not full screen?) |
| 16:49.36 | JeffM2501 | depending on it's moddle |
| 16:49.55 | DTRemenak | run "bzflag -window" |
| 16:50.00 | JeffM2501 | bz8940, use the "bzflag in a window" shortcut the installer made for you ( asuming your on windows ) |
| 16:50.08 | *** join/#bzflag Silent_Swan (n=pepper@adsl-64-108-223-145.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net) |
| 16:50.20 | Silent_Swan | salutations |
| 16:50.22 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: if he was on windows he would have X,Y,Z,Rx,Ry,Rz, not 0,1,2,3,4,5 ;) |
| 16:50.25 | JeffM2501 | hell |
| 16:50.29 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, ahh |
| 16:50.38 | JeffM2501 | perhaps his system is rebelling against MS hardware then :) |
| 16:50.40 | DTRemenak | he's on some SDL platform |
| 16:50.44 | JeffM2501 | hello Silent_Swan |
| 16:51.01 | DTRemenak | and SDL only gives us index numbers |
| 16:51.05 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 16:51.10 | Silent_Swan | hi JeffM2501 |
| 16:51.21 | DTRemenak | 0 and 1 are usually X and Y but it's not a guaranteed thing |
| 16:51.39 | bz8940 | nope does not work changing to 1 or 2. I am on linux btw |
| 16:52.47 | bz8940 | would it be just a matter of trying? |
| 16:53.01 | DTRemenak | should be, yeah |
| 16:53.10 | Silent_Swan | sounds pretty good, jeff - you'll need kbd/mouse and display |
| 16:53.22 | JeffM2501 | the O2 uses vga and PS2 |
| 16:53.22 | Silent_Swan | or a 13w3->vga converter |
| 16:53.26 | Silent_Swan | oh ok |
| 16:53.28 | Silent_Swan | perfect |
| 16:53.44 | JeffM2501 | but is it worth 210$ just to see a game? :) |
| 16:53.45 | Silent_Swan | now we can start a bid war *evil grin* |
| 16:53.55 | Silent_Swan | that's your call |
| 16:54.06 | Silent_Swan | i'd buy the box just because it's nice machine |
| 16:54.08 | bz8940 | ok, it seems to work now |
| 16:54.15 | JeffM2501 | what woudl you do on it? |
| 16:54.33 | DTRemenak | bz8940: cool |
| 16:54.34 | JeffM2501 | or would it just be to go "GRRRRR... that swan I'l.... get you....!" |
| 16:54.36 | Silent_Swan | play around with 3d design |
| 16:54.43 | Silent_Swan | haha |
| 16:54.51 | bz8940 | I changed it back to original and to my surprise it is working. I could change the number while testing the movement in the background |
| 16:55.17 | bz8940 | might have been because of restarting bzflag after changing the settings |
| 16:55.21 | purple_cow | o2 isn't a particularly nice machine :P |
| 16:55.26 | bz8940 | thanks a lot |
| 16:55.38 | DTRemenak | no problem |
| 16:55.52 | Silent_Swan | purple_cow it's old and pokey, yes, but it should do what jeff wants |
| 16:56.24 | Silent_Swan | afk for a bit |
| 16:56.51 | purple_cow | even for old and pokey, it's not great |
| 16:57.15 | purple_cow | it was cool at the time because host & video memory were shared, so you could have a gig of texture ram if you wanted |
| 16:57.25 | purple_cow | but in terms of actual graphics power, it's pretty lackluster |
| 16:59.08 | menotume | brlcad: i can't get libtoolfix to work. it's looking for an ltmain.sh - the script looks a bit outdated |
| 16:59.08 | JeffM2501 | purple_cow, I want to run ONE thing |
| 16:59.13 | JeffM2501 | I'd emulate the sucker if I could |
| 16:59.55 | JeffM2501 | hell I'd be happy if somone with an SGI described the thign for me and took some screenshots |
| 17:00.41 | purple_cow | hehe |
| 17:00.42 | JeffM2501 | purple_cow, how bout an nidi 2 extreme? |
| 17:01.36 | purple_cow | doesn't brlcad have an sgi? :P |
| 17:01.46 | JeffM2501 | he has many |
| 17:01.51 | JeffM2501 | but I feel his time is limited |
| 17:02.03 | JeffM2501 | hell I can get an inidi for like 40$ |
| 17:02.35 | orange | working? :-) |
| 17:02.41 | JeffM2501 | they say they boot |
| 17:02.43 | JeffM2501 | no drives |
| 17:02.51 | JeffM2501 | but it's not like I can't find scsi drives |
| 17:03.10 | JeffM2501 | http://cgi.ebay.com/SGI-Indigo-2-Workstation-R10K-IMPACT-195MHz-128MB_W0QQitemZ5815318967QQcategoryZ11223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
| 17:03.12 | orange | yeah, but you can't get the SGI service contract unless you use their drives ;-) |
| 17:03.22 | JeffM2501 | do I need those? |
| 17:04.03 | orange | no, I was kidding... the cost of the contract would be... ridiculous |
| 17:04.14 | orange | compared to the cost of the box |
| 17:04.18 | orange | what about the OS though? |
| 17:04.33 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, said he may have some disks laying around |
| 17:04.35 | purple_cow | JeffM2501: older sgi models need scsi drives with special firmware |
| 17:04.41 | JeffM2501 | man |
| 17:04.57 | purple_cow | at least, for the system disk |
| 17:04.58 | orange | but if you get one you can play 'flight', which is fun |
| 17:05.03 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 17:05.16 | orange | it's almost worth it for that... I loved that 'game' |
| 17:05.17 | *** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (n=Julio@98.Red-80-36-59.staticIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 17:06.16 | JeffM2501 | this one says it has a system disk |
| 17:06.17 | JeffM2501 | http://cgi.ebay.com/SGI-IRIS-INDIGO-M-N-CMNB003B-WORKSTATION_W0QQitemZ5814971970QQcategoryZ11223QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
| 17:07.23 | *** join/#bzflag defcon8 (n=defcon8@unaffiliated/defcon8) |
| 17:07.30 | defcon8 | anyone having probs with bzflag 2.0.2 on freebsd? |
| 17:07.53 | bryjen | HUDRenderer::setHeading is called three times after start with angle=0, then the nan slips in there... |
| 17:08.07 | JeffM2501 | hmm is there anyway to vmware an IRIX system |
| 17:08.16 | JeffM2501 | defcon8, it's not a common OS, but I know some people use it |
| 17:08.25 | defcon8 | damn man |
| 17:08.26 | JeffM2501 | mostly for servers |
| 17:08.29 | defcon8 | i want my bzfalg :( |
| 17:08.34 | defcon8 | i am on freebsd myself |
| 17:08.34 | JeffM2501 | well |
| 17:08.42 | JeffM2501 | how about you start by telling us what the problem is? |
| 17:08.50 | DTRemenak | bryjen: |
| 17:08.50 | defcon8 | > bzflag |
| 17:08.50 | defcon8 | Fatal signal: Floating Point Exception (SDL Parachute Deployed) |
| 17:08.50 | defcon8 | bzflag in free(): error: chunk is already free |
| 17:08.55 | defcon8 | it plays for a bit |
| 17:09.04 | DTRemenak | bryjen: Player.cxx:218 |
| 17:09.06 | DTRemenak | add |
| 17:09.07 | defcon8 | i go around in the maps and actually play and then it just closes and gives me that error |
| 17:09.08 | DTRemenak | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:09.14 | DTRemenak | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:09.20 | menotume | JeffM2501: your fixes work fine, thx |
| 17:09.23 | DTRemenak | then set a breakpoint on Player.cxx: 219 |
| 17:09.25 | JeffM2501 | menotume, cool |
| 17:09.27 | bryjen | strange |
| 17:09.30 | JeffM2501 | defcon8, what GCC do you have? |
| 17:09.40 | defcon8 | 3.4.2 |
| 17:09.43 | JeffM2501 | hmm |
| 17:09.50 | DTRemenak | if _azimuth is NaN the breakpoint should trigger, then send a backtrace |
| 17:09.50 | JeffM2501 | well there is a 2.0.4 now |
| 17:09.59 | JeffM2501 | you could try that |
| 17:10.09 | JeffM2501 | also make sure you have current SDL |
| 17:10.23 | DTRemenak | ooh, fun double free |
| 17:11.26 | defcon8 | aint ported it yet to freebsd |
| 17:11.37 | JeffM2501 | build from source |
| 17:11.47 | JeffM2501 | the source is fine, it dosnt' need to be "ported" |
| 17:11.54 | JeffM2501 | but it's not in portage yet probably |
| 17:11.58 | defcon8 | yeah |
| 17:12.05 | defcon8 | naah i think they may have added patches and stuff |
| 17:12.07 | defcon8 | ill try anyway |
| 17:12.08 | DTRemenak | yeah, the ports package is not up to date |
| 17:12.09 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, who puts it in portacge |
| 17:12.19 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: portage is gentoo. ports is freebsd |
| 17:12.22 | JeffM2501 | defcon8, a couple poeple here build 2.0.4 from source |
| 17:12.31 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, well who does ether :) |
| 17:12.46 | DTRemenak | the bzflag in ports is maintained by "Chuck" |
| 17:12.58 | defcon8 | DTRemenak, i emailed him |
| 17:12.59 | JeffM2501 | who the hell is chuck? |
| 17:13.27 | DTRemenak | apparently he is the maintainer of bzflag in ports ;) |
| 17:13.31 | JeffM2501 | well 'chuck' should not have to patch anything |
| 17:13.43 | JeffM2501 | the bzflag.bz server runs bsd |
| 17:13.49 | JeffM2501 | YOU run bsd |
| 17:14.03 | defcon8 | maybe he just makes the makefiles for ports |
| 17:14.05 | DTRemenak | yeah, bsd should compile cleanly nowadays |
| 17:14.16 | defcon8 | ok dlig |
| 17:14.17 | JeffM2501 | defcon8, automake should take care of that |
| 17:14.18 | defcon8 | dling |
| 17:14.21 | DTRemenak | yup. makefiles and checksums and so on |
| 17:14.31 | JeffM2501 | still wonder who chuck is |
| 17:14.32 | defcon8 | JeffM2501, you dont understand |
| 17:14.36 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: ports makefiles are not makefile makefiles |
| 17:14.37 | JeffM2501 | that is possible |
| 17:14.40 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 17:14.44 | defcon8 | makefile for ports |
| 17:14.44 | JeffM2501 | like that debian crap |
| 17:14.46 | defcon8 | not just the makefile |
| 17:14.49 | JeffM2501 | that we don't have |
| 17:14.51 | DTRemenak | yeah, kinda like that |
| 17:14.53 | JeffM2501 | thanks to fearless |
| 17:15.04 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, got any SGI machines? |
| 17:15.13 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: uh....no... |
| 17:15.16 | JeffM2501 | damn |
| 17:16.11 | JeffM2501 | it's a mystery to me |
| 17:16.18 | bryjen | hrm, it keeps breaking at 221 instead of 219. move called with angle=0 six time, then NaN |
| 17:16.20 | JeffM2501 | maybe it holds the secrests to the universe :) |
| 17:16.38 | DTRemenak | bryjen: backtrace for the NaN time? |
| 17:16.39 | Thumper_ | unlikely. I thought that was 42. |
| 17:16.51 | Thumper_ | more likely some strange addiction ;) |
| 17:16.56 | JeffM2501 | possibly |
| 17:16.59 | JeffM2501 | it sounds cool |
| 17:17.12 | JeffM2501 | it lets people customise tanks |
| 17:17.25 | Thumper_ | there is not antidote |
| 17:17.25 | defcon8 | thatd be l33t |
| 17:17.28 | defcon8 | bzfalg dub edition |
| 17:17.30 | JeffM2501 | it could be what? |
| 17:17.31 | defcon8 | bzflag |
| 17:17.33 | DTRemenak | bryjen: oh yeah, you're using -O2. azimuth = azimuth is a no-op, so it's optimized right out of the code, you can't set a breakpoint on it. sorry. |
| 17:17.56 | JeffM2501 | dub? |
| 17:18.20 | bryjen | #0 Player::move (this=0x8d85640, _pos=0xbfcc5fa0, _azimuth=-nan(0x7fffff)) at Player.cxx:221 |
| 17:18.22 | bryjen | #1 0x0812f609 in drawFrame (dt=3.15442991) at playing.cxx:4946 |
| 17:18.24 | bryjen | #2 0x08130a55 in playingLoop () at playing.cxx:5901 |
| 17:18.25 | bryjen | #3 0x08134373 in startPlaying (_display=0xbfcc5fa0, renderer=@0x8587a58) at playing.cxx:6523 |
| 17:18.27 | bryjen | #4 0x08113f31 in main (argc=2, argv=0xbfcc7114) at Singleton.h:83 |
| 17:18.35 | DTRemenak | huh. that's odd. |
| 17:18.51 | bryjen | yeah, i was wondering about that as an optimization myself |
| 17:19.38 | blast007 | JeffM2501: "dubs (plural), a set of decorative chrome wheels 20 inches or larger in size" |
| 17:19.53 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 17:19.57 | DTRemenak | bryjen: the if statement is valid, you just need to have it actually do something if it matches |
| 17:20.07 | DTRemenak | don't suppose it matters now anyway |
| 17:20.08 | JeffM2501 | thank you for the translation blast :) |
| 17:20.11 | blast007 | ;) |
| 17:20.22 | bryjen | printf("Foo!"); |
| 17:20.40 | JeffM2501 | this type of customisation is for performance on the tank |
| 17:20.43 | JeffM2501 | and it's not BZFlag |
| 17:21.18 | JeffM2501 | it is bz |
| 17:22.11 | DTRemenak | bryjen: still running in gdb? |
| 17:22.15 | bryjen | yes |
| 17:22.17 | Pimpinella | yeah, i want a dub edition too |
| 17:22.23 | DTRemenak | frame 1 |
| 17:22.33 | Pimpinella | Donjon's Ugly Beasts edition though |
| 17:22.34 | DTRemenak | print roam->theta |
| 17:22.51 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 17:23.02 | JeffM2501 | Pimpinella, I want many things, but we'll see how far they get :) |
| 17:23.10 | Pimpinella | hehe ;) |
| 17:23.18 | bryjen | No symbol "roam" in current context. hrm, doesn't seem to be finding the source files either :/ |
| 17:35.30 | DTRemenak | bryjen: when do you get this error? |
| 17:38.39 | bryjen | hmm? the "No symbol roam..." after doing "print roam->theta", the lockup in general, right after joining a server as an observer |
| 17:39.46 | DTRemenak | that's odd |
| 17:40.01 | bryjen | was getting it last night at home (default non-debug compile). observer worked OK here at work with --enable-debug, but not after recompiling normal |
| 17:40.10 | DTRemenak | ah |
| 17:41.08 | trepan | DTRemenak: ToughShooter was crashing around playing.cxx 2425, near a ROAM.getTargetTank() |
| 17:41.43 | trepan | need to check that world and myTank's exist |
| 17:41.45 | DTRemenak | trepan: hm. it's not guaranteed to be non-NULL, might need to check for that. |
| 17:41.53 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 17:42.55 | DTRemenak | bryjen: Roaming.cxx:334, add "(334) if (camera.theta != camera.theta) \ (335) printf("Foo");", set a breakpoint on 335 |
| 17:43.08 | trepan | i left the printfs in a commit yesterday too that fixed a world == null segv, removed 'em at your leisure if your satisfied that bailing is ok ;) |
| 17:44.34 | bryjen | 334 is a closing brace |
| 17:47.41 | DTRemenak | bryjen: sorry, mine was not up to date |
| 17:47.47 | DTRemenak | last line in the last function in the file |
| 17:48.01 | bryjen | ooopsa, ok |
| 17:49.12 | bryjen | Roaming::updatePosition |
| 17:49.55 | DTRemenak | yup |
| 17:51.17 | bryjen | Ok, but it still skipped over the if |
| 17:52.18 | DTRemenak | hrmph |
| 17:54.38 | bryjen | what's dc? |
| 17:54.49 | bryjen | #0 Roaming::updatePosition (this=0x8ad5d48, dc=0xffffffff, dt=0.872582018) at Roaming.cxx:350 |
| 17:55.10 | DTRemenak | dc should be a RoamingCamera* |
| 17:56.48 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/ (Player.cxx Roaming.cxx): handle null world when roaming a bit better |
| 17:57.11 | DTRemenak | player.cxx? |
| 17:57.35 | bryjen | don't ask me, you did it ;) |
| 17:57.36 | DTRemenak | ah, ws |
| 17:58.47 | DTRemenak | dc should always be a valid pointer |
| 17:59.11 | DTRemenak | it's only called once and the address of a local object is passed in. |
| 18:03.37 | defcon8 | i want bzflag to compile faster ( |
| 18:03.39 | defcon8 | :( |
| 18:04.01 | menotume | JeffM2501: can a start a match timer from a plugin ? |
| 18:04.15 | menotume | i see i can endgame |
| 18:04.26 | JeffM2501 | probably not if you don't see it |
| 18:04.35 | menotume | :) |
| 18:04.37 | JeffM2501 | what command usualy starts one? |
| 18:04.42 | menotume | /countdown |
| 18:04.59 | JeffM2501 | let me look |
| 18:05.11 | menotume | great, thx |
| 18:05.50 | JeffM2501 | I thouhgt there was something |
| 18:05.56 | JeffM2501 | part of the patch meacan made |
| 18:06.28 | menotume | ahhh, can i send a message to the server that says '/countdown' ? |
| 18:06.30 | menotume | :) |
| 18:07.13 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 18:07.19 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 18:07.22 | JeffM2501 | it would not have player data |
| 18:07.26 | JeffM2501 | just one sec |
| 18:07.34 | DTRemenak | bzfscron sends server messages :P |
| 18:08.01 | JeffM2501 | how does it do it? |
| 18:08.04 | JeffM2501 | with a bzadmin? |
| 18:08.13 | DTRemenak | no, with a copy of ServerLink.cxx |
| 18:08.23 | DTRemenak | running synchronously in the same thread as bzfs |
| 18:08.26 | JeffM2501 | so it's onwn little admin :) |
| 18:08.31 | DTRemenak | yup |
| 18:08.34 | JeffM2501 | let me add a countdown |
| 18:08.42 | menotume | kewlness |
| 18:08.46 | DTRemenak | it's real ugly. I was amazed it worked. |
| 18:09.24 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 18:09.24 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 18:09.33 | DTRemenak | had no idea a process could establish a tcp connection to itself |
| 18:09.44 | JeffM2501 | why not:) |
| 18:10.03 | DTRemenak | well that's what I figured when I wrote it...hm, wonder if this will work... |
| 18:15.08 | *** join/#bzflag ibot_ (i=ibot@rikers.org) |
| 18:15.08 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org/ || http://my.BZFlag.org/bb/ || http://my.BZFlag.org/ || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/Download || #bzchat if you just want to chat || paste errors to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || BZFlag 2.0.4 Released! |
| 18:15.36 | JeffM2501 | you have full access to them |
| 18:15.39 | JeffM2501 | and can even set custom ones :) |
| 18:15.43 | menotume | right |
| 18:15.54 | menotume | that's the potentail problem |
| 18:16.15 | Tupone | menotume: I'm going to change these commands soon or later, if nobody does before me |
| 18:16.28 | menotume | ahhh, okies |
| 18:16.42 | menotume | that'll keep Jeff busy :) |
| 18:16.46 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 18:17.16 | Tupone | why you don't just add an API for doing command ("string") ? |
| 18:17.25 | menotume | :) |
| 18:17.32 | JeffM2501 | I have thought about that |
| 18:17.34 | DTRemenak | Tupone: almost all commands assume the sender is a player |
| 18:17.48 | JeffM2501 | but then I'd have to go thru and make EVERY single command handaler work with NULL player data |
| 18:17.57 | JeffM2501 | so it'd be a HUGE amount of work |
| 18:18.07 | JeffM2501 | and often you'd not want the behavor of the / version |
| 18:18.09 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: have you thought about making ServerPlayer a real player? |
| 18:18.16 | menotume | i tried 'bz_sendTextMessage(who, BZ_ALLUSERS, "/countdown");' where who was my user id, didn't work :) |
| 18:18.16 | DTRemenak | err, "real" fake |
| 18:18.19 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, that is more of a hack |
| 18:18.33 | JeffM2501 | I'd rather get what the /comamnds do into modular functions |
| 18:18.41 | JeffM2501 | that can be called from the / or from the code |
| 18:19.03 | JeffM2501 | where the / part is just another way to interface the API |
| 18:19.03 | menotume | more work for you :) |
| 18:19.11 | JeffM2501 | yeah but cleaner in the long run |
| 18:19.34 | Tupone | :( I just hate that |
| 18:19.39 | JeffM2501 | I know you do |
| 18:19.45 | JeffM2501 | modularity is your enimy |
| 18:19.51 | menotume | API will be bigger than bzfs :) |
| 18:19.57 | JeffM2501 | the API IS bzfs |
| 18:20.03 | JeffM2501 | or it could be |
| 18:20.08 | Grumbler | API will control the horizontal |
| 18:20.10 | JeffM2501 | then that opens up the way for more scripting |
| 18:20.17 | JeffM2501 | and things like that |
| 18:20.42 | Tupone | JeffM2501: you are locking all bzfs to your API |
| 18:20.52 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, the api is part of bzfs |
| 18:20.57 | JeffM2501 | why dupe code |
| 18:21.03 | JeffM2501 | why not use the API if it works |
| 18:21.04 | Tupone | the api should be just an interface |
| 18:21.11 | Tupone | you are linking everythings |
| 18:21.27 | JeffM2501 | the other option is to have the core functions buried |
| 18:21.30 | menotume | Apllication Programmers INTERFACE ? |
| 18:21.45 | Tupone | you are not making it modular, you are making it iced |
| 18:21.46 | JeffM2501 | yes, and the application needs to use it to inteface functions :) |
| 18:21.51 | JeffM2501 | iced? |
| 18:21.57 | Tupone | forzen |
| 18:22.01 | Tupone | frozen I meant |
| 18:22.08 | menotume | kewl :) |
| 18:22.10 | JeffM2501 | most of the API functions now call interal functions that contain the logic |
| 18:22.23 | JeffM2501 | there are a couple places that call the API, mostly for events |
| 18:22.37 | JeffM2501 | but what is wrong with having a stable interface ANYONE can use? |
| 18:22.46 | JeffM2501 | and what would you rather have? |
| 18:23.13 | menotume | modular bzfs, with API on top ? |
| 18:23.32 | JeffM2501 | a core internal API then that both the server shell and the exposed API use? |
| 18:23.37 | Tupone | you can call command with strings, without interfacing real code |
| 18:23.43 | JeffM2501 | why shuck around strings? |
| 18:23.45 | JeffM2501 | that's slow |
| 18:24.00 | Tupone | because string are already part of documented interface |
| 18:24.12 | JeffM2501 | so why not change the documented interface? |
| 18:24.22 | JeffM2501 | strings offer no other advantage then lazy programers |
| 18:24.29 | Tupone | strings are part of the commands the admin uses |
| 18:24.39 | JeffM2501 | a plugin is not an admin |
| 18:24.54 | JeffM2501 | and often they will want to do more or less then the / version of a command do |
| 18:24.57 | menotume | so, it has to do strings anyway |
| 18:25.21 | JeffM2501 | the string method is a very linux command line pipe centric method |
| 18:25.24 | JeffM2501 | there are other ways |
| 18:25.59 | JeffM2501 | the plugin may deal with strings |
| 18:26.08 | JeffM2501 | but it should not be forced to use them only |
| 18:26.19 | menotume | so, instead of 'ban #3', we have a UI to point&click ? |
| 18:26.24 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 18:26.33 | JeffM2501 | the plugin can just call ban (playerID) |
| 18:26.51 | JeffM2501 | insted of having to build up the string "/ban #3" after it's done all the work |
| 18:27.30 | menotume | or, it just passes "/ban #3" thru |
| 18:27.42 | JeffM2501 | for this countdown thing, I am making a new function that takes the paramaters for countdown and has all the logic the / command has, and is called by both the API and the command ahndler |
| 18:27.50 | JeffM2501 | menotume, I mean if the plugin does the ban, not a human |
| 18:27.52 | menotume | sounds good to me |
| 18:27.59 | menotume | right |
| 18:28.07 | menotume | i'm just saying what tuponoe did i guess |
| 18:28.07 | JeffM2501 | if you have human input of ban #3 you don't even need the freaking plugin |
| 18:28.09 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-5-1-cust130.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 18:28.22 | menotume | right :) |
| 18:28.29 | JeffM2501 | I'd like to know what more he thinks it offers tho |
| 18:28.40 | menotume | flexibility |
| 18:28.47 | JeffM2501 | not really |
| 18:28.50 | CBG | menotume: left :) |
| 18:28.52 | menotume | since aommands are implemented for the human anyway |
| 18:29.01 | JeffM2501 | it's just as flexable as having an API anyway |
| 18:29.09 | menotume | well, assuming that you are not able to implement APIS for everything |
| 18:29.12 | JeffM2501 | asuming it's all done |
| 18:29.16 | menotume | and, change them as needed |
| 18:29.20 | menotume | right |
| 18:29.34 | JeffM2501 | you have to compare them asuming they are both totaly implemented |
| 18:29.49 | JeffM2501 | because we can ether implemnt all / comamnds with API functions that do the same thing |
| 18:30.09 | JeffM2501 | or make an API function that takes a string, and then fix all / comamnds to work with out a player |
| 18:30.15 | JeffM2501 | it's the same amount of work :) |
| 18:30.21 | JeffM2501 | just in difrent ways |
| 18:30.22 | menotume | it is ? |
| 18:30.24 | menotume | eeep |
| 18:30.28 | JeffM2501 | you have to hit each one |
| 18:30.31 | JeffM2501 | no mater what |
| 18:30.44 | JeffM2501 | and make the logic work sans player |
| 18:30.52 | menotume | there's go to be some level where it can be intercepted |
| 18:31.00 | JeffM2501 | the methods differ in where you put the code, and what it's input is |
| 18:31.13 | menotume | to make it look like a player's client sent the command |
| 18:31.42 | JeffM2501 | you'd have to fake out a player |
| 18:31.51 | JeffM2501 | then at that point you have to intercept the error messages |
| 18:31.52 | menotume | well, doesn't matter to me, if you are up for keeping up :) |
| 18:31.55 | JeffM2501 | if the string is malformed |
| 18:31.57 | JeffM2501 | etc.. |
| 18:32.01 | menotume | ahh |
| 18:32.03 | JeffM2501 | that becomes even less flexable |
| 18:32.15 | JeffM2501 | I'd much rather just have the API function return an error :) |
| 18:32.36 | JeffM2501 | also with the API functions, you know what all the paramaters are, since to an extent, the headers are somewhat self documenting |
| 18:32.53 | JeffM2501 | the / commands have to break the string up into a set of parmaters anyway |
| 18:33.17 | JeffM2501 | why waste the time making the plugin put paramaters into a string, the / command parse them, then just call some code anyway |
| 18:33.19 | menotume | i thought just pass the whole string in somewhere |
| 18:33.22 | JeffM2501 | why not just call that freaking code |
| 18:33.32 | menotume | would a change make API version incompatible ? |
| 18:33.32 | JeffM2501 | they do, but they ahve to parse that string |
| 18:33.43 | JeffM2501 | depends on what changed |
| 18:33.46 | menotume | ya |
| 18:33.50 | JeffM2501 | if a structure changes then yes |
| 18:34.04 | JeffM2501 | that's one reason you wrap the API up |
| 18:34.11 | *** join/#bzflag tea|tree (n=5496d25b@genesis.concept69.de) |
| 18:34.14 | tea|tree | hola |
| 18:34.20 | menotume | hola tree |
| 18:34.20 | JeffM2501 | so you can keep the external API the same, and do maping to an internal API |
| 18:34.26 | JeffM2501 | that can change willynilly |
| 18:34.37 | tea|tree | menotume: check your mails in a sec, i got a oktoberfest pic for you ;) |
| 18:34.40 | menotume | unless you need to add params, data |
| 18:34.45 | tea|tree | menotume: your mail again?` |
| 18:34.59 | JeffM2501 | well then you can make a new method that takes more params |
| 18:34.59 | *** join/#bzflag Guest069 (n=9738cedd@genesis.concept69.de) |
| 18:35.09 | JeffM2501 | keep the old one, with defaults for the new params and still be ok |
| 18:35.20 | JeffM2501 | there are ways to work it |
| 18:35.32 | JeffM2501 | every OS and windowing system has been dealing with APIs since day one :) |
| 18:35.43 | JeffM2501 | so it's not like the issues are unknown |
| 18:35.52 | tea|tree | Pat! |
| 18:35.59 | *** join/#bzflag Guest351 (n=9738cedd@genesis.concept69.de) |
| 18:36.14 | menotume | no tree-mail |
| 18:36.26 | JeffM2501 | pat is dead |
| 18:36.40 | menotume | hmmm, you like that in API, but it's a hack in bzfs :) |
| 18:36.45 | tea|tree | menotume: your mail again ! |
| 18:36.48 | tea|tree | Jeff! |
| 18:36.50 | JeffM2501 | it's not a hack |
| 18:36.53 | JeffM2501 | if you do it right |
| 18:36.59 | tea|tree | addy |
| 18:37.00 | JeffM2501 | it just takes smart deign |
| 18:37.17 | menotume | tea - no mail |
| 18:37.29 | JeffM2501 | the / commands have to call code, why not make it the same code the API calls |
| 18:37.30 | JeffM2501 | that's all |
| 18:37.35 | JeffM2501 | instead of jumping thru a hoop |
| 18:37.36 | menotume | okies |
| 18:37.53 | JeffM2501 | sure we could make every single thing the server does go thru a text interface |
| 18:37.58 | JeffM2501 | but it's more work then it's worth |
| 18:38.08 | menotume | no - i wouldn't suggest that |
| 18:38.18 | menotume | but, if it already does / commands .... |
| 18:38.24 | tea|tree | menotume: qry |
| 18:38.25 | menotume | why add to it ? |
| 18:38.34 | JeffM2501 | we arn't adding to it |
| 18:38.39 | JeffM2501 | we are using what the / commands are using |
| 18:38.39 | SportyGal | !weather 90277 |
| 18:38.43 | TheLastSpartan | SportyGal: The current temperature in Redondo Beach, California (90277) is 86°F. |
| 18:38.46 | JeffM2501 | just a t a lower level then the text |
| 18:38.52 | JeffM2501 | and we can't just use the text interface |
| 18:38.58 | JeffM2501 | with out changing every / command anyway |
| 18:39.04 | JeffM2501 | due to the way the / commands work |
| 18:39.23 | JeffM2501 | so if you have to change them all, why not do it in a cleaner way |
| 18:39.39 | menotume | yes,if that's what we do |
| 18:39.39 | JeffM2501 | instead of hacking in some text stuff just because somone is too lazy to redoc the api |
| 18:39.44 | Tupone | JeffM2501: you are not taking suggestion from anyone. You have your idea and go with it. You call that discussing ? |
| 18:39.58 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, I havne't heard a peep out of you |
| 18:40.03 | JeffM2501 | I wanted to know what else you thought |
| 18:40.06 | JeffM2501 | but you stay silent |
| 18:40.08 | JeffM2501 | or leave |
| 18:40.11 | menotume | but, i see stuff in gameover that is very bzfs internal |
| 18:40.11 | JeffM2501 | you call that dicussing? |
| 18:40.11 | Tupone | phone |
| 18:40.15 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 18:40.22 | JeffM2501 | I'm more then willing to listen to what you have to say |
| 18:40.29 | JeffM2501 | and reasons why you think it's better |
| 18:40.42 | menotume | tea|tree: where did you send it ? |
| 18:40.43 | JeffM2501 | but that dosn't mean I have to agree with them :) |
| 18:40.51 | Tupone | first, you don't have to revise the api anytime we add command |
| 18:40.56 | menotume | right |
| 18:40.59 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 18:41.03 | JeffM2501 | that is one advantage |
| 18:41.23 | Tupone | the pace of api call is not that high, that string parsing will slow bzfs |
| 18:41.24 | JeffM2501 | and as far as I can tell it's only advantage |
| 18:41.55 | JeffM2501 | it is just more work on the plugin side for plugins that don't take human input |
| 18:41.57 | menotume | tea|tree: there we go :) |
| 18:41.58 | JeffM2501 | but ok |
| 18:42.03 | Tupone | you will have a low coupling between API and command implementation, so we can reorganize code |
| 18:42.16 | JeffM2501 | what? |
| 18:42.17 | Tupone | without taking into account what the plugin uses |
| 18:42.21 | tea|tree | menotume: harr |
| 18:42.26 | menotume | tea|tree: omg - it's so blurry i can't even see you |
| 18:42.27 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, I didn't understand that sorry |
| 18:42.34 | tea|tree | never.. |
| 18:43.34 | Tupone | API code, and command should be not coupled, so in case we rearrange code we don't have to take into account plugin implementation |
| 18:43.43 | JeffM2501 | umm ok |
| 18:43.54 | JeffM2501 | I understand that |
| 18:44.01 | trepan | JeffM2501: your API version number have some sort of backwards compatibility indicator? |
| 18:44.17 | JeffM2501 | trepan, no, it's just there to prevent a crash |
| 18:44.44 | JeffM2501 | so the plugins with older incompatble APIs dont' get loaded and freak on data structures that have changed. |
| 18:45.12 | trepan | it's worth considering |
| 18:45.14 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, but what is the cost of implmetning a generic / command API function |
| 18:45.17 | bryjen | the API and the /command parsing routines could both could sit on top of one set of functions that actually perform work. |
| 18:45.24 | JeffM2501 | trepan, yeah I could version data structures and stuff |
| 18:45.32 | *** join/#bzflag wizart (n=wizart@dslb-084-058-147-201.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 18:45.35 | JeffM2501 | bryjen, that's what I'm trying to say |
| 18:45.53 | JeffM2501 | not having the / command call the exported BZAPI directly |
| 18:46.01 | bryjen | but that makes the API functions just an indirection to the real ones, so instead, the work is folded into the API function, and the /command just call them |
| 18:46.01 | Tupone | we could just guaranteed a single entry point to the plugin, for the command, and maintain that for all bzfs live |
| 18:46.01 | trepan | na, just talking about sensible top level version code to start with |
| 18:46.17 | menotume | tea|tree: icq |
| 18:46.33 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, what is the cost of geting that single API entry point? |
| 18:46.39 | JeffM2501 | and how do you handle errors and stuff? |
| 18:46.43 | Tupone | in term of CPU ? |
| 18:46.49 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, no in coding |
| 18:46.53 | JeffM2501 | geting the sucker to work :) |
| 18:47.06 | JeffM2501 | to do your method, we have to fix every single / command at the same time to work with out a player |
| 18:47.16 | JeffM2501 | and also reroute error codes back via strings to the plugin somehow |
| 18:47.29 | JeffM2501 | with a method like bryjen sugests we can do it peicemeal |
| 18:47.35 | JeffM2501 | parts at a time |
| 18:47.41 | Tupone | server command are now handled by a single hyerarchy of class |
| 18:47.43 | JeffM2501 | much easyer to implement |
| 18:47.48 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, yes I know |
| 18:48.00 | JeffM2501 | but all the specific implementations deal with player data directly |
| 18:48.02 | JeffM2501 | they asume it is there |
| 18:48.06 | bryjen | and it makes more sense to have code talking to code in the same process via function calls than passing strings around |
| 18:48.10 | JeffM2501 | they also send out net messages DIRECLY for errors |
| 18:48.13 | Tupone | and? you are not able to pass it ? |
| 18:48.29 | menotume | the API and the /command parsing routines could both could sit on top of one set of functions that actually perform work. <=== yes ! |
| 18:48.31 | JeffM2501 | we would have to pass in a fake palyer |
| 18:48.45 | menotume | ooops, bryjen quote |
| 18:48.45 | JeffM2501 | and also trap all message sends data access about that fake player |
| 18:49.13 | menotume | meno quote: modularize bzfs, and put API on top :) |
| 18:50.09 | bryjen | menotume: and my following statement explains why Tupone thinks the API is eating bzfs |
| 18:50.44 | tea|tree | menotume: write something pls icq |
| 18:53.29 | JeffM2501 | I mean it's all dooable |
| 18:53.36 | JeffM2501 | it just seems to me a lot more ugly |
| 18:53.45 | JeffM2501 | I agree with bryjen, code should talk to code |
| 18:54.24 | bryjen | building up and parsing strings would be fragile and wastes cycles |
| 18:54.40 | JeffM2501 | also if we put the implementation of the comamnd logic in it's own function/class they we get to move code around a lot easyer |
| 18:54.44 | menotume | well, the low-level 'API' should do the work, the API interface shouldn't have to do much - just pass back and forth |
| 18:54.52 | JeffM2501 | and even call it from other places thent he API or the / command |
| 18:55.01 | menotume | yep |
| 18:55.02 | JeffM2501 | menotume, yes |
| 18:55.04 | JeffM2501 | I totaly agree |
| 18:55.16 | JeffM2501 | that is one place where I do no like one thing I have done |
| 18:55.25 | JeffM2501 | I made the event handlers part of the API |
| 18:55.35 | JeffM2501 | they should be there own system |
| 18:55.52 | JeffM2501 | so that the guts can change and not have to worry about the API |
| 18:56.10 | JeffM2501 | the other option is to just say screw the C++ api and move the guts of the python plugin into bzfs |
| 18:56.17 | JeffM2501 | and make bzfs do the direct python stuff |
| 18:56.26 | JeffM2501 | then you get better compatability and stuff |
| 18:56.43 | Tupone | without dinamyc loading |
| 18:56.44 | JeffM2501 | maybe the API was a bad Idea |
| 18:56.45 | JeffM2501 | I dono |
| 18:56.55 | Tupone | python inside bzfs |
| 18:57.04 | JeffM2501 | some poeple realy think it sucks I guess |
| 18:57.17 | Tupone | no need to have a compiler |
| 18:57.21 | JeffM2501 | why not load dynamicly? |
| 18:57.25 | menotume | API works for me |
| 18:57.29 | Tupone | why load it? |
| 18:57.35 | menotume | once i got used to OO stuff |
| 18:57.39 | Tupone | maybe configure option |
| 18:57.45 | JeffM2501 | umm so that you can turn plugins on and off at run time |
| 18:57.52 | *** join/#bzflag PrezKennedy (n=Apathy@pcp0011645240pcs.aberdn01.md.comcast.net) |
| 18:58.07 | Tupone | python engine does not eat cpu if you don't give it a file |
| 18:58.26 | JeffM2501 | oh you are saying you don't want python loaded if you don't have a plugin? |
| 18:58.32 | JeffM2501 | sure sure that could be implemenation |
| 18:58.35 | Tupone | python loaded |
| 18:58.40 | Tupone | everytime |
| 18:58.45 | JeffM2501 | when? |
| 18:58.46 | JeffM2501 | now? |
| 18:58.47 | Tupone | configure option |
| 18:58.49 | JeffM2501 | or if we did that? |
| 18:58.59 | Tupone | My idea is : |
| 18:59.08 | Tupone | Having python in bzfs |
| 18:59.12 | trepan | and why not java, lua, or erlang? |
| 18:59.19 | JeffM2501 | or C# |
| 18:59.19 | Tupone | or tcl |
| 18:59.27 | Chestal | I want scheme |
| 18:59.34 | menotume | ok, if we are going to redesign bzfs anyway, let's do it all in java |
| 18:59.39 | _Manu_ | I want ocaml :) |
| 18:59.42 | Tupone | java sucks |
| 18:59.46 | menotume | :) |
| 18:59.46 | JeffM2501 | the point of the C++ api was to make it possible to expose the API to any language |
| 18:59.50 | trepan | point being, a well done c/c++ api should allow other languages without having to build them in |
| 18:59.55 | JeffM2501 | with out masive changes in bzfs |
| 18:59.58 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 19:00.02 | JeffM2501 | that was my design goal |
| 19:00.09 | Tupone | MacOSX 10.2 cannot do that :) |
| 19:00.30 | menotume | how about BASIC ? |
| 19:00.31 | trepan | to my mind, building other languages in is a bad idea |
| 19:00.41 | menotume | yes, they should sit on top |
| 19:00.41 | JeffM2501 | to the core app, totaly |
| 19:00.51 | JeffM2501 | the python plugin is loadable at config time |
| 19:00.54 | JeffM2501 | as an option |
| 19:01.11 | JeffM2501 | and no mater what language we bind to, we have to chose a set of functions to export to the language |
| 19:01.17 | JeffM2501 | so it becomes an API itself |
| 19:01.22 | Tupone | but not C++ |
| 19:01.26 | Tupone | it should be C |
| 19:01.30 | JeffM2501 | why? |
| 19:01.39 | Tupone | if you want to map not OO language |
| 19:01.54 | JeffM2501 | then it's the plugin's job to put a non oo wraper around it |
| 19:01.58 | Chestal | with C API you could plugin fortran without a wrapper :-) |
| 19:02.14 | menotume | yes, and RPGII |
| 19:02.16 | Tupone | that is if you want to map all languages |
| 19:02.21 | JeffM2501 | yet you'd have to wrap if you went to an oo language |
| 19:02.24 | Chestal | there are interfaces to C ABI for some language |
| 19:02.33 | Chestal | for C*+, it is rare, only python I think exists |
| 19:02.58 | JeffM2501 | that is why there is the plugin layer, to let you wrap from one method to another |
| 19:03.19 | JeffM2501 | you REALY think that there is a huge calling for fortran plugins for a silly tank game? ;) |
| 19:03.26 | menotume | rofl |
| 19:03.31 | Chestal | fortran is everywhere :-) |
| 19:03.36 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure it is |
| 19:03.43 | JeffM2501 | but that dosn't mean it's the right thing to do :) |
| 19:03.48 | Tupone | I will map to tcl |
| 19:03.58 | JeffM2501 | what ever that is |
| 19:04.17 | Tupone | brl-cad uses tcl, we can make them talk :) |
| 19:04.24 | JeffM2501 | sure that's usefull |
| 19:04.29 | Tupone | lol |
| 19:04.31 | bryjen | everything is a string in tcl... |
| 19:04.47 | Chestal | well, I don't really know a thign about the API stuff, but please try to decouple it from core bzfs as much as possible. No non-API bzfs functionality should have to call any API related code |
| 19:05.06 | menotume | it's dark in there |
| 19:05.10 | Chestal | of inflict restrictions on the kind of thigns we can do in code, like not use std:string or whatever |
| 19:05.39 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, that's basicly what we are saying, have a core set of fucntions that do the logic ( not exposed ) and have them both called by the / commands and the API |
| 19:05.45 | trepan | the basic interface should be C, with C++ api being a wrapper lib |
| 19:05.57 | JeffM2501 | well it isn't |
| 19:06.09 | JeffM2501 | bzflag is C++ |
| 19:06.18 | trepan | binary interfaces don't bend to bz's will |
| 19:06.25 | trepan | or yours for that matter ;) |
| 19:06.26 | JeffM2501 | this is true |
| 19:06.46 | JeffM2501 | well menotume then I guess tupone and trepan will be making your functions :) |
| 19:06.56 | JeffM2501 | I can't change the past |
| 19:07.02 | menotume | :) |
| 19:07.06 | JeffM2501 | most of the API is basicly C style |
| 19:07.18 | JeffM2501 | the callback classes would have to be made funtion pionters |
| 19:07.25 | trepan | heh, being a dev, plugins are all but useless to me |
| 19:07.27 | JeffM2501 | with structures |
| 19:07.32 | trepan | but others sure do seem to like 'em ;) |
| 19:07.39 | JeffM2501 | they seem to |
| 19:07.57 | JeffM2501 | I have used the back end API services for some things in bzfs |
| 19:07.59 | JeffM2501 | like the events |
| 19:08.07 | JeffM2501 | for the oncap stuff |
| 19:08.10 | JeffM2501 | since it made sense |
| 19:08.20 | JeffM2501 | but it dosnt' call the API |
| 19:08.25 | JeffM2501 | it just calls the worldEvent manager |
| 19:08.30 | JeffM2501 | same thing the API calls |
| 19:09.37 | JeffM2501 | those callbacks are really the only C++ style thing |
| 19:09.49 | JeffM2501 | and the containers |
| 19:09.56 | menotume | sounds like i should stop wrinting this pluign, and just add all the htf stuff to the main code |
| 19:10.10 | JeffM2501 | so any wraper to a non OO language would be minimal |
| 19:10.19 | JeffM2501 | but then I've not seen anyone try |
| 19:10.20 | DTRemenak | menotume: you should do that anyway |
| 19:10.25 | JeffM2501 | the python one worked anyway |
| 19:10.31 | menotume | DTRemenak: really |
| 19:10.34 | menotume | ? |
| 19:10.39 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 19:10.40 | JeffM2501 | if it's a real game mode, why not? |
| 19:10.47 | menotume | true |
| 19:11.03 | DTRemenak | consensus is it's a fine mode, just nobody's written it yet |
| 19:11.04 | menotume | then, JeffM2501 can write API to control it :) |
| 19:11.17 | JeffM2501 | tho you'd not be able to give it a new real game mode with out client mods |
| 19:11.33 | JeffM2501 | so you'd have to make it like a rabbit or CTF variant |
| 19:11.33 | menotume | ya |
| 19:11.34 | DTRemenak | error handling. that's what makes the API models so messy. |
| 19:11.48 | DTRemenak | both of them suffer from it |
| 19:11.55 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, and geting an error string back is cleaner? :) |
| 19:12.09 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: nope. need a different way to do it. check out the flowcharts |
| 19:12.09 | menotume | building htf into bzfs is a bit more than i wanted to do right now :( |
| 19:12.20 | JeffM2501 | what flowcharts? |
| 19:12.27 | DTRemenak | uploading them now |
| 19:12.33 | JeffM2501 | you ran reports? |
| 19:12.35 | JeffM2501 | on the code? |
| 19:12.49 | brlcad | menotume: :P |
| 19:12.49 | DTRemenak | no |
| 19:12.59 | brlcad | "do it right, or it ain't worth doing" ;) |
| 19:13.13 | brlcad | although it does make a cool plugin :) |
| 19:13.13 | DTRemenak | manually did flow tracing for both of your API plans and for BZFS' setup without an API |
| 19:13.24 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 19:13.47 | JeffM2501 | name mangaling |
| 19:13.54 | JeffM2501 | and maping to a non oo lang is harder |
| 19:14.07 | menotume | so, let them use OO |
| 19:14.10 | JeffM2501 | and there are a lot of non oo scripting langs |
| 19:14.16 | brlcad | it can be done, but you'd need a bridge API |
| 19:14.18 | menotume | well, ya |
| 19:14.25 | JeffM2501 | anything can be done |
| 19:14.33 | JeffM2501 | it's all just a question of work and maintainablity |
| 19:14.42 | menotume | and priorities |
| 19:14.45 | JeffM2501 | naw |
| 19:14.51 | JeffM2501 | screw prioritys |
| 19:14.55 | menotume | heh |
| 19:14.55 | brlcad | otherwise, you're tied to the actual instantiations of the code you compiled against, which would generally be very bad |
| 19:15.08 | JeffM2501 | if prioritys were important, we'd be fixing networking and DR, instead of arguing about fortran plugins :) |
| 19:15.23 | menotume | i mean, we don't want to spend most of the next release just re-orging code, do we ? |
| 19:15.35 | JeffM2501 | noone wants to reorg the code |
| 19:15.40 | menotume | Jeffs API works |
| 19:15.47 | DTRemenak | http://dtremenak.bakadigital.com/BZ_API.odg |
| 19:15.50 | DTRemenak | http://dtremenak.bakadigital.com/BZ_API.pdf |
| 19:16.04 | menotume | maybe it's not ideal for EVERYTHING, but it works |
| 19:16.12 | DTRemenak | downward arrows are command flow, upward are error flow |
| 19:16.54 | JeffM2501 | what is the pre API setup? |
| 19:17.09 | JeffM2501 | oh just sans any API |
| 19:17.18 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 19:17.19 | brlcad | DTRemenak: any change for a client scrupulenting sometime? |
| 19:17.26 | brlcad | s/change/chance/ |
| 19:17.39 | DTRemenak | brlcad: scrupulenting? is that german? |
| 19:17.40 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, that's not exactly how I had it in mind |
| 19:17.41 | Grumbler | hmm, the path from human to api is fuzzy |
| 19:17.51 | JeffM2501 | and I think you have it layed out in a way that makes it look more complex |
| 19:17.53 | brlcad | DTRemenak: valgrinding ;) |
| 19:18.09 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: corrections are welcome |
| 19:18.19 | DTRemenak | this is just what I'd picked up from listening |
| 19:18.19 | JeffM2501 | what can I edit it in? |
| 19:18.28 | DTRemenak | the odg is editable in openoffice2 |
| 19:18.33 | JeffM2501 | hmm |
| 19:18.38 | DTRemenak | or you can tell me what to change |
| 19:18.39 | JeffM2501 | that would involve open office :) |
| 19:19.00 | DTRemenak | I figured that would be more welcome around here than, say, visio :) |
| 19:19.05 | JeffM2501 | ohh it is |
| 19:19.21 | Grumbler | there is a path where the human types an api command, that i guess i dont see a path for in the Jeff plan....at least in the drawing |
| 19:19.26 | JeffM2501 | remember the hell we had trying to find one that worked cross plat |
| 19:20.37 | trepan | Grumbler: huh? that's hidden behind the plugin block |
| 19:21.39 | JeffM2501 | Grumbler, no a human would never directy type in an api fucntion |
| 19:21.39 | DTRemenak | Grumbler: it's identical in both diagrams. human->CommandHandler->plugin |
| 19:21.52 | JeffM2501 | you would have a command that is implemented in a plugin |
| 19:21.53 | DTRemenak | plugin commands |
| 19:21.59 | JeffM2501 | then it could call API functions |
| 19:22.11 | DTRemenak | then the plugin returns the error directly to the human |
| 19:22.15 | Grumbler | no, i mean a method to command the api....say turn on a part of it...etc |
| 19:22.19 | DTRemenak | the error return paths make everything messy |
| 19:22.28 | JeffM2501 | that's another part of it, the plugins implemnt / commands that bzfs dosn't |
| 19:22.31 | DTRemenak | 'cause they jump all the intermediates |
| 19:22.36 | JeffM2501 | so it is also tied into the / command system |
| 19:23.41 | DTRemenak | the diagrams also ignore event triggering from inside bzfs |
| 19:24.14 | DTRemenak | I was assuming there was no difference of opinion on that |
| 19:24.15 | JeffM2501 | I think tupones system will look cleaner on a flowchart but requires a lot more work, and in reality is more limiting |
| 19:24.46 | JeffM2501 | since plugins would have to build up these strings |
| 19:24.49 | DTRemenak | it's definately more work for the API and CommandHandler blocks |
| 19:24.50 | JeffM2501 | and get errors back as something |
| 19:25.00 | JeffM2501 | I dont' think it really cleans anything up ether |
| 19:25.08 | JeffM2501 | it does get around the change/compatbility issues |
| 19:25.14 | JeffM2501 | that I agree on |
| 19:25.19 | JeffM2501 | but I don't think that's enough |
| 19:25.21 | DTRemenak | but it has minimal modification to and dependence on the bzfs core |
| 19:25.45 | JeffM2501 | well other then faking out a player, and grabing back the send data to that fake palyer |
| 19:25.57 | JeffM2501 | since the command handlers do that diretly |
| 19:26.12 | JeffM2501 | yes it is a smaller change to the overall structure of bzfs tho |
| 19:26.23 | JeffM2501 | not that I think we all LOVE the current bzfs structure |
| 19:26.28 | DTRemenak | again, it's the data return paths that are aweful |
| 19:26.34 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 19:26.36 | DTRemenak | for both systems, moreso for his |
| 19:26.36 | JeffM2501 | and you have to have em |
| 19:27.09 | JeffM2501 | at least in mine, you only get the return paths you need for a specififc function |
| 19:27.13 | JeffM2501 | not one big generic |
| 19:27.33 | DTRemenak | if you look at the / command impl blocks in his, you have two error return paths, but undifferentiated inputs |
| 19:27.51 | JeffM2501 | yeah one for from a plugin one for a player |
| 19:27.52 | DTRemenak | which is kinda, ya know, impossible |
| 19:27.55 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 19:28.23 | JeffM2501 | i mine the logic can allways reutrn the same data, then each caller can decide how to use it |
| 19:28.32 | JeffM2501 | that's why I say it seems cleaner to me |
| 19:28.37 | JeffM2501 | and it can be done in parts |
| 19:29.04 | Chestal | can someone quickly outline a use case for me? Sounds liek you want API to call a /command? |
| 19:29.08 | DTRemenak | imho the best solution for that is to pass an error code back to commandhandler, that either outputs an error string or sends an API error code to the plugin |
| 19:29.16 | JeffM2501 | ending up with what I feel is a better designed bzfs with a set of logic functions that coudl be used in other places of bzfs |
| 19:29.35 | DTRemenak | Chestal: you want to kick someone. plugin can kick someone in response to an event, admin can kick someone with a message |
| 19:29.47 | JeffM2501 | used in places like new game modes that are built right in |
| 19:29.59 | JeffM2501 | rather then making that game mode build up a string, or duplicate code |
| 19:30.07 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: it also internalizes the api. so if we change the internal structure, the api changes too. that's the nasty part of it |
| 19:30.21 | JeffM2501 | same thing happens now if we change a function |
| 19:30.25 | JeffM2501 | like gotBlowedUp |
| 19:30.48 | menotume | Chestal: this all started when i asked for /countdown functionality for a htf plugin :) |
| 19:30.50 | DTRemenak | yeah, but what we'd LIKE to see is an API that doesn't change every version |
| 19:30.53 | JeffM2501 | when you change a function, you change all the things that call it |
| 19:31.05 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, that is why the exported API is it's own wraper |
| 19:31.08 | JeffM2501 | that dosn't chnage |
| 19:31.28 | JeffM2501 | or changes less |
| 19:31.37 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: I'm not so sure that wrapper won't need to change. most of your api functions are very simple redirections to internal bzfs functions |
| 19:31.55 | JeffM2501 | well we have that problem with the non / command things anyway |
| 19:32.01 | DTRemenak | plugins use a lot of internal data and functions that are "liable to change" |
| 19:32.04 | JeffM2501 | the / commands are not the end all be all of bzfs interfaces |
| 19:32.30 | JeffM2501 | most plugins work off events |
| 19:32.35 | JeffM2501 | or dicking with the player data |
| 19:32.46 | JeffM2501 | that is WAY more likely to change |
| 19:32.48 | DTRemenak | yeah. the RESPONSE to the event is what is diagrammed though |
| 19:32.57 | DTRemenak | I didn't do outgoing event flow |
| 19:33.03 | JeffM2501 | I know |
| 19:33.20 | JeffM2501 | but if we have the change problem there, we have to have a solution for that |
| 19:33.25 | DTRemenak | I don't think that's disputed. the contents of the messages maybe - how much do plugins need to know? |
| 19:33.29 | JeffM2501 | and why can't that same solution be used for / commands |
| 19:33.43 | JeffM2501 | they need to know enough to do there job |
| 19:33.52 | JeffM2501 | so it really is, what do we want plugins to be able to do? |
| 19:34.13 | JeffM2501 | shoudl they be able to do anything? |
| 19:34.22 | JeffM2501 | or is the API to be limited to a subset of things? |
| 19:34.28 | DTRemenak | right. I think y'all are going about it the wrong way. Should be designing the API independently of the code, then writing enough of an API layer to make your "ideal API" work. |
| 19:34.46 | JeffM2501 | that is what I tried to do |
| 19:34.54 | JeffM2501 | I want the exported api to be very high level things |
| 19:35.00 | JeffM2501 | like "gimme a spawn" |
| 19:35.10 | Grumbler | .....and then every api that was written requested something new |
| 19:35.23 | DTRemenak | right. but then you reused essentially the internal spawn data structure, right? |
| 19:35.25 | Grumbler | , err, plugin |
| 19:35.32 | JeffM2501 | no I didn't |
| 19:35.46 | JeffM2501 | I call the spawn code and return the data |
| 19:36.05 | JeffM2501 | if the spawning stuff changes, we can change the call to it, and still return the same data |
| 19:36.16 | DTRemenak | and even to the point of things like, the API uses player id's extensively. what happens if we rewrite bzfs to not use player id's? |
| 19:36.30 | JeffM2501 | well not realy |
| 19:36.36 | JeffM2501 | my player IDs are ints |
| 19:36.39 | JeffM2501 | not the shorts |
| 19:36.51 | JeffM2501 | right now there is a maping of 1 to 1 |
| 19:37.01 | JeffM2501 | if we change it, we can make the API use it's own IDs |
| 19:37.16 | JeffM2501 | I use my own codes for all players, and server etc.. |
| 19:37.25 | JeffM2501 | so it's not tied to the current magic numbers |
| 19:37.33 | JeffM2501 | so I was thinking of that |
| 19:37.37 | JeffM2501 | I needed some identifyer |
| 19:38.03 | JeffM2501 | we also use our own team enum for team stuff, not the magic player IDs |
| 19:38.09 | DTRemenak | so it is your opinion that a numeric player ID is the best way of identifying players? |
| 19:38.19 | JeffM2501 | it was a reasonable one yes |
| 19:38.21 | JeffM2501 | fast lookup |
| 19:38.32 | JeffM2501 | it may not be perfect |
| 19:38.44 | JeffM2501 | the other choces are strings |
| 19:38.50 | JeffM2501 | that seemed slower |
| 19:39.17 | JeffM2501 | numerics are easy to get unique too |
| 19:39.22 | DTRemenak | ok. see, that's the question I think needs to be asked. and the trend in the API seems to be "do it the same way as bzfs", which seemed to indicate that either that question was NOT being asked, or that bzfs is doing everything the right way. |
| 19:39.45 | JeffM2501 | that wasn't what I was thinking |
| 19:39.58 | JeffM2501 | I did it the same way as bzfs when that way made sense |
| 19:40.19 | JeffM2501 | or there were not other ways to do it with out masive changes / feature loss |
| 19:40.33 | JeffM2501 | there are many cases where the API does not expose BZFS specificf data |
| 19:40.41 | JeffM2501 | because it didn't make sense form a high level standpoint |
| 19:40.48 | JeffM2501 | not saying I got it all perfect |
| 19:40.50 | JeffM2501 | but that was the idea |
| 19:40.54 | DTRemenak | made sense from who's perspective? the plugin writer is the API audience. bzfs is not written from that perspective, but the API should be. |
| 19:40.59 | JeffM2501 | to make it so the API would change as little as possible |
| 19:41.07 | JeffM2501 | from the plugin author |
| 19:41.25 | JeffM2501 | it was allways " ok I want to do this" |
| 19:41.38 | JeffM2501 | so then I thought what function would make sense to do that thing |
| 19:42.02 | JeffM2501 | then on the bzfs inmplementation of the function I had to figure out how to get that info from bzfs |
| 19:42.09 | JeffM2501 | some times we had a function just for it |
| 19:42.23 | JeffM2501 | some times we didn't and I had to add some glue logic |
| 19:42.47 | *** join/#bzflag Erroneous (n=DTRemena@DHCP-170-143.caltech.edu) |
| 19:42.48 | JeffM2501 | I understand what you are saying, and that was my goal |
| 19:43.10 | menotume | JeffM2501: I don't really need /countdown after all - nvm :p |
| 19:43.16 | JeffM2501 | you sure? |
| 19:43.19 | menotume | heh |
| 19:43.34 | menotume | first go, i don't - let a player do /countdown, the plugin will see it |
| 19:43.45 | JeffM2501 | like for couttodwn, what I was doing was not one countdown fucntion that took the same params as the / command |
| 19:43.47 | DTRemenak | heh :) |
| 19:43.48 | JeffM2501 | but logical ones |
| 19:43.51 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v DTRemenak] by ChanServ |
| 19:43.53 | JeffM2501 | like pauseCountdown |
| 19:43.57 | JeffM2501 | startCountdown |
| 19:44.00 | JeffM2501 | stuff like that |
| 19:44.09 | JeffM2501 | on the backend they are just gonna call the same thing |
| 19:44.10 | menotume | if you implement it, i will use it |
| 19:44.19 | menotume | but, for now, i'll get around it :) |
| 19:44.21 | JeffM2501 | I have started it |
| 19:44.32 | DTRemenak | cool. that makes sense |
| 19:44.39 | JeffM2501 | dono when it will be done tho |
| 19:44.43 | menotume | k |
| 19:44.45 | menotume | np |
| 19:45.01 | JeffM2501 | so far the only reasons I've had to bump the API version have been because I forgot stuff in structures |
| 19:45.11 | JeffM2501 | or my functions were wrong |
| 19:45.18 | JeffM2501 | but then we also haven't been changing masive stuff |
| 19:45.22 | menotume | what would be IDEAL would be if the API can set the game duration |
| 19:45.25 | DTRemenak | yeah, but bzfs hasn't been changing virtually at all |
| 19:45.29 | menotume | dunno if that can be done easily |
| 19:45.56 | menotume | right now, all games are fixed to the -time cl option |
| 19:45.57 | JeffM2501 | menotume, so setGameDuration() wont' work? |
| 19:46.19 | JeffM2501 | so we make the API function change the guts of it |
| 19:46.39 | menotume | setgameduration would be great |
| 19:46.39 | JeffM2501 | as dtr said, don't think about how it works now, design the api on the logical things you need to do |
| 19:46.50 | menotume | ahh, true |
| 19:47.06 | menotume | change the guts as needed and time permits |
| 19:47.18 | DTRemenak | should probably make it a bzdb var next protocol break anyway |
| 19:47.20 | JeffM2501 | tho at some level asuming a game has a 'durration' is in itself a tie to bzfs |
| 19:47.49 | menotume | yes |
| 19:47.58 | JeffM2501 | my perfect API would be to have the core logic loops of bzfs call a "game" class for the current game mode |
| 19:48.12 | JeffM2501 | that was derived from a base class that had the basic features of all game modes |
| 19:48.20 | JeffM2501 | then let the plugin install it's own class |
| 19:48.35 | JeffM2501 | and still be able to use all the core functionality |
| 19:48.39 | JeffM2501 | that would kick butt |
| 19:48.45 | menotume | could be difficult to desgin |
| 19:48.53 | JeffM2501 | it woudl not be trivial |
| 19:48.54 | menotume | for all possibilites |
| 19:49.04 | JeffM2501 | that's the thing, you don't have to hit all possibilitys |
| 19:49.20 | JeffM2501 | you just have to have all the hooks into all possible envnts and inputs |
| 19:49.21 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: I think tupone's big objection to your design is that it busts up the bzfs internals in order to allow for logical api expansion. it's not at all an independent thing. |
| 19:49.36 | JeffM2501 | true |
| 19:49.40 | DTRemenak | whether that's ok or not is a matter of perspective |
| 19:49.43 | JeffM2501 | it will change the bzfs internals |
| 19:49.50 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-5-1-cust130.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 19:49.59 | JeffM2501 | but are we dead set on the curren internals being "golden" ? |
| 19:50.04 | DTRemenak | bryjen: honestly, I have no idea |
| 19:50.17 | JeffM2501 | is there anything wrong with changing the internals? |
| 19:50.21 | JeffM2501 | for what ever reason |
| 19:50.31 | JeffM2501 | what if I wanted to change the internals just to clean them up? |
| 19:50.44 | DTRemenak | nope. that's what he's saying...it'll be way harder to restructure the internals with all the API stuff hanging all over them |
| 19:50.52 | Tupone | JeffM2501: I think bzfs design is very far from gold. I just don't want the bzfsAPI to be strongly linked to bzfs |
| 19:51.05 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, I see your concern |
| 19:51.14 | DTRemenak | I think he wants to rebuild a lot of it, and he's afraid the API will limit what he can do. |
| 19:51.21 | JeffM2501 | and no I do not want the guts of bzfs to rely on the api ether |
| 19:51.27 | JeffM2501 | I have done it once, and I dont like It |
| 19:51.53 | JeffM2501 | the event types are all defined in the API |
| 19:51.58 | JeffM2501 | I want to change that |
| 19:51.58 | Tupone | no limit on we can do, not just me :) |
| 19:52.10 | bryjen | breaking the game logic code from the UI (/command string parsing) code doesn't seem like a bad idea in itself.... |
| 19:52.24 | JeffM2501 | nor to me |
| 19:52.34 | JeffM2501 | geting the API to call the logic in /shutdown is a horible hack right now |
| 19:52.42 | DTRemenak | Tupone: I think if you work _with_ JeffM2501 on whatever changes you want to make, he can make the API adapt to whatever you do. |
| 19:53.12 | DTRemenak | if either of you start screwing with stuff too much you're liable to break the other guy's plans though :) |
| 19:53.21 | JeffM2501 | I'd like to know what tupone is planing |
| 19:53.23 | Pimpinella | i'd like to see a lot of features removed from bzfs or at least using bzfsAPI |
| 19:53.51 | JeffM2501 | thats why I like to talk about my plans a lot :) |
| 19:54.18 | JeffM2501 | one possible implemenation of bzfs it just have it be a shell that provides services |
| 19:54.26 | JeffM2501 | and the actual GAME is done in plugins |
| 19:54.26 | Tupone | I don't have any plan. I just don't want costrict my future wishes |
| 19:54.37 | Tupone | our |
| 19:54.37 | JeffM2501 | and those wishes are.........? |
| 19:54.49 | Tupone | they are future. You need to read |
| 19:54.58 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 19:55.01 | Tupone | so I don't have any now |
| 19:55.02 | JeffM2501 | I did |
| 19:55.18 | JeffM2501 | were they wishes for the future? or wishes you intened to make in the future |
| 19:55.21 | JeffM2501 | it could be taken both ways |
| 19:55.38 | Tupone | not wishes for the future, future wishes |
| 19:55.45 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 19:55.47 | JeffM2501 | got it :) |
| 19:56.25 | bryjen | nothing is carved in stone. protocol is broken when need be. the api should be stable, but it is not sacred. |
| 19:56.31 | JeffM2501 | lightwave did there entire app as plugins into a framework |
| 19:56.34 | JeffM2501 | it's rather flexable |
| 19:56.40 | JeffM2501 | dono how clean or maintain able it is |
| 19:56.59 | JeffM2501 | ooo I know |
| 19:57.05 | Pimpinella | the API is a chance to make the design of bzfs _way_ cleaner than it is now, and it needs to become cleaner! i'd be pleased to read about alternatives |
| 19:57.06 | JeffM2501 | I and create "INTERFACE" classes |
| 19:57.08 | JeffM2501 | that are versioned |
| 19:57.15 | JeffM2501 | then the plugin could just ask for the interface |
| 19:57.17 | JeffM2501 | for it's version |
| 19:57.27 | JeffM2501 | and then get objects for them |
| 19:57.29 | JeffM2501 | maybe |
| 19:57.42 | JeffM2501 | and each interface is a Component |
| 19:57.51 | menotume | OOooooh |
| 19:57.52 | JeffM2501 | so like a Component Ojbect Model or soemthing |
| 19:57.59 | DTRemenak | eeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwww |
| 19:58.03 | DTRemenak | err |
| 19:58.05 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 19:58.14 | JeffM2501 | I now see why they did it |
| 19:58.20 | DTRemenak | don't say that. that's evil. |
| 19:58.30 | JeffM2501 | even tho it is ugly and evil it does solve a number of problems |
| 19:58.31 | DTRemenak | I expect to hear about COM in #winehackers, not here :) |
| 19:58.35 | JeffM2501 | conceptuyaly |
| 19:58.40 | JeffM2501 | if not in implemenation |
| 19:58.41 | Tupone | Corba Component Model :) |
| 19:58.50 | Tupone | COrba 3 ? |
| 19:59.03 | JeffM2501 | Com = compoent ojbect model |
| 19:59.09 | JeffM2501 | it's fugly as heck |
| 19:59.10 | DTRemenak | hm, I have not looked at object stuff outside of Windows' COM |
| 19:59.14 | DTRemenak | there are others though |
| 19:59.19 | DTRemenak | Corba among them |
| 19:59.22 | DTRemenak | ~corba |
| 19:59.23 | ibot | rumour has it, corba is the Common Object Request Broker Architecture or at http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/corba.html or http://www.cetus-links.de/oo_corba.html |
| 19:59.24 | Tupone | CCM is a huge |
| 19:59.26 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure somone has a better imolmenation |
| 19:59.28 | Tupone | ~huge |
| 20:00.08 | JeffM2501 | I'm not entirely sure if it's totaly imporant to make plugins be forward compatable across major revs tho |
| 20:00.23 | JeffM2501 | since they are suposed to be open souce, they shoudl be able to be maintained |
| 20:00.34 | bryjen | ~spell imolmenation |
| 20:00.36 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: working with COM I get the impression that it was designed to be much smaller than it is, and got a crapload of stuff hacked on to it during design. or maybe it was designed by committee :( |
| 20:00.36 | *** join/#bzflag mmu_man (i=revol@ALyon-253-1-13-87.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 20:00.37 | JeffM2501 | if we document chances well enough and give people upgrade place |
| 20:00.47 | DTRemenak | immolation! :) |
| 20:00.48 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, yeah it idid |
| 20:00.56 | JeffM2501 | yes I wish to set people on fire |
| 20:00.58 | JeffM2501 | who dosn't? |
| 20:01.28 | DTRemenak | I don't hear anyone speaking up ;) |
| 20:01.42 | bryjen | burn, baby, burn |
| 20:04.33 | Thumper_ | Thumper's previous callsign used to be Toaster... (close enough for immolation purposes?) |
| 20:05.23 | JeffM2501 | see me and bryjen are tight! |
| 20:06.14 | Grumbler | get a room |
| 20:07.39 | bryjen | has anyone else build recent CVS is non-debug mode? and joined a server with it as an observer? |
| 20:08.25 | menotume | brlcad: yes |
| 20:08.30 | menotume | quite often |
| 20:08.34 | menotume | ohhh, wait |
| 20:08.40 | menotume | how recent ? |
| 20:08.48 | Grumbler | brlcad or bryjen ? |
| 20:09.23 | bryjen | since DTR's roaming changes |
| 20:10.31 | *** join/#bzflag menotume (n=meno@pcp08153236pcs.ivylnd01.pa.comcast.net) |
| 20:10.57 | menotume | bryjen: GRRRRR, total X lockup :) |
| 20:11.50 | DTRemenak | heh :) |
| 20:12.20 | bryjen | mine doesn't bork X, bz gets stuck in a loop. switch vts and kill -9 it |
| 20:12.21 | DTRemenak | I still wanna know where that NaN is coming from |
| 20:12.45 | DTRemenak | and why dc is an invalid pointer |
| 20:12.55 | DTRemenak | especially why dc is an invalid pointer |
| 20:13.07 | Grumbler | because it wasnt registered with AKC |
| 20:13.29 | DTRemenak | ~akc |
| 20:13.31 | menotume | ahhh, i did killall |
| 20:13.36 | menotume | killall didn't complain |
| 20:13.40 | menotume | lemme try again |
| 20:14.19 | bryjen | plain kill is not enough. you must kill it alot ;) |
| 20:14.39 | Grumbler | ibot akc is American Kennel Club |
| 20:14.41 | ibot | okay, Grumbler |
| 20:14.48 | DTRemenak | ah, heh |
| 20:14.57 | menotume | oh, i c - i killed my startup script :) |
| 20:15.03 | menotume | yes, kill -9 works fine |
| 20:15.14 | Grumbler | bad jk, i am full of them today |
| 20:15.23 | DTRemenak | :) |
| 20:15.51 | menotume | i just changed my scripts around, s that i can have multiple versions easily |
| 20:20.57 | *** part/#bzflag dcat (n=none@pdpc/supporter/active/dcat) |
| 20:25.16 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 20:25.17 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 20:26.26 | bryjen | ahh, dc looks better when breaking into the beginning of updatePosition... |
| 20:27.26 | Tupone | menotume: you forget you have to do something for me. You owe that to me. Listserver changes :) |
| 20:27.39 | Tupone | stop with the htf for now :) |
| 20:27.42 | menotume | 'owe' ? |
| 20:27.44 | menotume | :) |
| 20:27.55 | Tupone | ~spell owe |
| 20:28.01 | menotume | hehe |
| 20:28.04 | Tupone | ~dict owe |
| 20:28.16 | Tupone | yeah that :) |
| 20:28.28 | Tupone | j/k |
| 20:28.36 | menotume | i know, np |
| 20:28.43 | menotume | i was just thinking about breaking here |
| 20:28.53 | menotume | then, listserver when i get back |
| 20:29.13 | Tupone | and NONE was the token |
| 20:29.28 | Tupone | when no token is got from client |
| 20:29.40 | menotume | lemme get back into it a bit, then i'll run by you what i think you want |
| 20:29.52 | Tupone | ok :) |
| 20:31.05 | menotume | you know, if listserver had an API, you could do it yourself :p |
| 20:31.42 | Tupone | menotume: I could do myself, even without an API |
| 20:31.50 | Tupone | I just don't want to be alone |
| 20:32.13 | Tupone | coworking is good |
| 20:32.46 | Tupone | and I have time to fully replace my router. you see, I was down too much |
| 20:33.34 | menotume | np, dude :) |
| 20:33.45 | menotume | was just joking |
| 20:37.00 | brlcad | menotume: no |
| 20:37.48 | Silent_Swan | JeffM2501 you here? |
| 20:38.15 | bryjen | brlcad: not yourself today? |
| 20:38.34 | DTRemenak | hm, brlcad must be NaN :) |
| 20:38.52 | brlcad | infinitely true |
| 20:40.32 | DTRemenak | !weather 91126 |
| 20:40.33 | trepan | brlcad: you have GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object ? |
| 20:40.39 | TheLastSpartan | DTRemenak: The current temperature in Pasadena, California (91126) is 88°F. |
| 20:41.55 | brlcad | trepan: don't know, but if I had to guess.. |
| 20:42.07 | trepan | >= GL 1.5 |
| 20:42.57 | brlcad | laptop here has a 7500, let me check what it supports |
| 20:45.57 | ToughShooter | If the 7500 doesn't have it, my 9600 has this extension |
| 20:46.21 | brlcad | it has it |
| 20:46.57 | brlcad | trepan: http://bzflag.bz/tmp/radeon7500.txt |
| 20:50.33 | trepan | cool, i'm first going to poke around some boards and see what might be the cause |
| 20:51.09 | menotume | JeffM2501: would it be OK if i changed bz_debugMessage() to use printf type args ? with vsnprintf ? |
| 20:52.31 | menotume | or, add bz_fdebugMessage() ? same with bz_sendTextMessage(), i'm getting tired of sprintf'ing to a local buffer :) |
| 20:53.50 | menotume | or, I'll just implement them in my plugin - you can look later and export if you want to |
| 20:54.29 | bryjen | DTRemenak: breaking at the beginning of Roaming::updatePosition, dc looks more like a valid pointer. the first time through, dc->theta=0, the second time, it's NaN |
| 20:54.49 | bryjen | and both times, breaking at the end of the function shows dc=0xffffffff |
| 20:55.29 | DTRemenak | can you break at playing.cxx:5466? |
| 20:55.45 | DTRemenak | see if deltaCamera->theta is NaN at that point |
| 20:56.14 | bryjen | hmm, stops at 5470 memcpy(&prevDeltaCamera, &deltaCamera, sizeof(Roaming::RoamingCamera)); |
| 20:56.48 | ToughShooter | Hmpf, got a crash again http://pastebin.com/384345 |
| 20:57.04 | *** join/#bzflag blast007 (n=blast007@24-196-92-143.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) |
| 20:57.15 | ToughShooter | I'll update CVS checkout and look whether I can reproduce |
| 20:57.37 | DTRemenak | bryjen: thats fine. probably -O2 is reordering the instructions |
| 20:57.42 | DTRemenak | check it there |
| 20:58.17 | ToughShooter | will need a while until I can get DTRemenak's change however |
| 20:59.14 | trepan | ToughShooter: that's probably the same thing as last time, has not been fixed afaik |
| 21:00.28 | ToughShooter | It was when I joined several times as observer with NOTOK and when I entered the right password it crashed :/ |
| 21:00.43 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/playing.cxx: ROAM.getTargetTank() can return NULL (thanks toughshooter) |
| 21:01.44 | trepan | yup, watch getTargetFlag(), and the use of getWorld() in the inline |
| 21:01.54 | bryjen | breaking on 5465: deltaCamera.zoom = roamDZoom; and deltaCamera->theta = Nan |
| 21:01.56 | trepan | amongst other spots |
| 21:02.25 | menotume | JeffM2501: http://meno.zapto.org/bzcaps/fmtapi.txt (maybe add this to bzfsAPI?) |
| 21:03.45 | *** join/#bzflag SportyGal (i=DonnaCra@24-75-159-182.vnnyca.adelphia.net) |
| 21:04.17 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/Roaming.h: careful with NULL worlds |
| 21:05.09 | DTRemenak | bryjen: and on 5449? |
| 21:05.48 | *** join/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 21:06.13 | RPG_ | can anyone here answer some Wings 3D UV texturing questions? |
| 21:06.43 | *** join/#bzflag SiriusB (n=SiriusB@178.Red-83-52-60.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:06.52 | menotume | Ultraviolet? wow, trepan is GOOD |
| 21:07.17 | RPG_ | well, my first quesion is "Can BZFlag use UV mapping" |
| 21:08.13 | trepan | yes |
| 21:08.26 | RPG_ | All I want to do is align an image on a face |
| 21:08.40 | RPG_ | Like, not have ti repeat |
| 21:08.46 | bryjen | 5449 is a blank line, it didn't stop there :/ |
| 21:08.49 | RPG_ | Is UV mapping what I"m looking for? |
| 21:09.00 | DTRemenak | bryjen: nearby then? |
| 21:09.27 | trepan | bzflag does not support texture clamps, split along polys |
| 21:09.49 | RPG_ | it's only one face though |
| 21:09.52 | bryjen | at the next break, 5465 "deltaCamera.zoom = roamDZoom;" and its NaN there again |
| 21:10.45 | DTRemenak | print myTank? |
| 21:11.25 | menotume | bummer, I can't see the 'SERVER: The match ahs started ..." msg from the plugin :( Time for a break, then listserver |
| 21:12.03 | bryjen | (class LocalPlayer *) 0x8d98270 |
| 21:12.21 | trepan | menotume: ultraviolet, no, but my version does have pain inducing anaglyphs ;) |
| 21:12.22 | RPG_ | menotume: racetoseveN? |
| 21:12.42 | RPG_ | trepan: could you point me to the name of teh Wings feature that will do that?' |
| 21:13.12 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/Roaming.cxx: careful with NULL tanks |
| 21:13.45 | DTRemenak | bryjen: can you print ROAM.getZoom()? |
| 21:14.24 | *** join/#bzflag Guest100 (n=46b66f8b@genesis.concept69.de) |
| 21:14.26 | trepan | RPG_: http://p212.ezboard.com/fnendowingsmiraifrm27.showMessage?topicID=77.topic |
| 21:14.30 | bryjen | No symbol "ROAM" |
| 21:14.54 | DTRemenak | how about Roaming::instance().getZoom()? |
| 21:15.09 | JeffM2501 | ohhy too much buriot |
| 21:15.14 | RPG_ | wow nice tutorial |
| 21:15.21 | bryjen | "There is no field named instance" |
| 21:16.11 | DTRemenak | hrmph |
| 21:16.15 | menotume | ~spell buriot |
| 21:16.29 | JeffM2501 | all the larg has gone to my finters |
| 21:16.31 | menotume | too many burritos ? |
| 21:16.56 | JeffM2501 | bean and cheese |
| 21:17.01 | JeffM2501 | with steak and sour cream |
| 21:17.15 | JeffM2501 | damn straigt :) |
| 21:18.03 | DTRemenak | bryjen: somewhere where deltaCamera.theta is NaN, can you print deltaCamera.phi? |
| 21:18.31 | DTRemenak | and deltaCamera.pos[1]? |
| 21:18.50 | JeffM2501 | I did get some nice time to think about stuff whilst consuming the beanie goodness |
| 21:19.26 | bryjen | phi = 0 , pos[1] = 0 |
| 21:19.57 | DTRemenak | that is very wierd |
| 21:20.04 | RPG_ | ~trepan++ |
| 21:20.37 | DTRemenak | we set deltaCamera.theta = ROAM.getZoom() * (float)myTank->getRotation(); |
| 21:20.57 | DTRemenak | the only way theta can be NaN is if either getZoom or getRotation returns NaN, right? |
| 21:21.17 | bryjen | yeah. just tried print myTank->getRotation(). "Cannot evaluate function -- may be inlined" |
| 21:21.19 | bryjen | :/ |
| 21:21.39 | DTRemenak | ah, but phi doesn't get set |
| 21:21.53 | DTRemenak | and neither does pos[1] :( |
| 21:22.08 | bryjen | various if's |
| 21:22.12 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 21:22.41 | DTRemenak | could you modify that function to set float x = myTank->getRotation(); and float y = ROAM.getZoom(); and see which one is NaN? |
| 21:22.54 | *** part/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 21:22.57 | DTRemenak | getRotation shouldn't be |
| 21:23.06 | DTRemenak | I think it can only return [0, 1, -1] |
| 21:23.38 | DTRemenak | but, getZoom shouldn't be either |
| 21:26.24 | DTRemenak | setZoom is only called with constants, and camera.zoom is only set to dt*dc.zoom or 60.0f. |
| 21:28.03 | DTRemenak | dc.zoom is set to roamDZoom, which is only ever set to a constant float, unless "roam zoom {in|out}" is called |
| 21:28.18 | Silent_Swan | JeffM2501, you htere? |
| 21:28.32 | JeffM2501 | I am |
| 21:28.43 | JeffM2501 | how are you? |
| 21:28.45 | Silent_Swan | yeah, just talked to my friend with SGI |
| 21:28.49 | Silent_Swan | i'm doing ok |
| 21:28.51 | Silent_Swan | anyway |
| 21:29.07 | Silent_Swan | she can't get any special deals on newer h/w, but says the O2 would be a perfect box for what you want |
| 21:29.29 | JeffM2501 | then I'll keep an eye out for them |
| 21:29.37 | JeffM2501 | thanks for checking :) |
| 21:29.41 | Silent_Swan | np |
| 21:29.52 | Silent_Swan | are you bidding on that one you told me about? |
| 21:29.59 | JeffM2501 | no I am not |
| 21:30.11 | Silent_Swan | hmm ok |
| 21:30.16 | DTRemenak | it is good to have doubts |
| 21:30.17 | JeffM2501 | I'm finding it hard to justify the cash on just seeing a game :) |
| 21:30.23 | Silent_Swan | ah |
| 21:30.24 | Silent_Swan | well |
| 21:30.29 | Silent_Swan | don't mind if i bid on it then :P |
| 21:30.36 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, I am not sure if the doubts will help you all out tho |
| 21:30.44 | JeffM2501 | have at it, Silent_Swan :) |
| 21:30.50 | ToughShooter | it's good to have a few doubts but not when having about all ;) |
| 21:30.56 | Silent_Swan | SGI's are just the coolest machines :) |
| 21:31.01 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: doubts are rarely bad things to have. you can always ignore them |
| 21:31.16 | JeffM2501 | naw this time they show the truth |
| 21:31.31 | JeffM2501 | Silent_Swan, what makes them cool? |
| 21:31.32 | bryjen | DTRemenak: somehow it's getZoom going NaN |
| 21:31.48 | Silent_Swan | they are probably some of the finest 3d workstations you can find |
| 21:31.57 | Silent_Swan | the OS is very clean and well designed |
| 21:32.00 | JeffM2501 | Silent_Swan, if you get it, maybe you can run the game on it, and tell me if it's worth it :) |
| 21:32.02 | Silent_Swan | and they look cool as hell |
| 21:32.06 | Silent_Swan | sure :) |
| 21:32.10 | JeffM2501 | the O2 case did look cool |
| 21:32.21 | JeffM2501 | I kinda wanted to put the mini in it :) |
| 21:32.42 | Silent_Swan | hah you can get just the case :) |
| 21:32.52 | JeffM2501 | true |
| 21:34.14 | JeffM2501 | I did see that Inidgos are a lot cheaper |
| 21:34.24 | Silent_Swan | oh yeah |
| 21:34.30 | Silent_Swan | but they won't run the latest OS release |
| 21:34.34 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 21:34.44 | Silent_Swan | they're basically the SGI equiv. of a sun sparcstation 20 |
| 21:34.49 | Silent_Swan | i had one |
| 21:34.53 | JeffM2501 | what ever one of those are :) |
| 21:35.04 | JeffM2501 | can you put it in terms of old macs :) |
| 21:35.11 | Silent_Swan | um... no :) |
| 21:35.16 | Silent_Swan | not familiar with old macs |
| 21:35.34 | Silent_Swan | well, my g4 is old |
| 21:35.35 | DTRemenak | bryjen: playing.cxx:5466, can you add something like " while !(deltaCamera.zoom == deltaCamera.zoom) {};" and see if it every locks into an infinite loop? |
| 21:35.57 | DTRemenak | hm, or will -O2 kill that? :( |
| 21:36.02 | JeffM2501 | to me G4's are "new" macs :) |
| 21:36.14 | JeffM2501 | mac II ci baby! :) |
| 21:36.20 | JeffM2501 | that's some oldness |
| 21:36.24 | Silent_Swan | i had no interest in mac until OSX came out |
| 21:36.32 | JeffM2501 | that was smart |
| 21:36.36 | Silent_Swan | i now have no interest in macs since their decision to switch to intel |
| 21:36.50 | JeffM2501 | PPCs do seem to be power hogs |
| 21:36.56 | Silent_Swan | and i was *just about* to buy a dual G5 |
| 21:37.03 | Silent_Swan | then they made that announcement |
| 21:37.06 | JeffM2501 | but I would have liked them to look into AMD as well |
| 21:37.12 | Silent_Swan | bah |
| 21:37.46 | JeffM2501 | I can understand why they were looking at other chip mfgs |
| 21:38.00 | JeffM2501 | when motorola left, they stoped most of the low end research |
| 21:38.01 | ToughShooter | Isn't AMD using the x86 ISA, too? |
| 21:38.15 | JeffM2501 | ISA? |
| 21:38.26 | ToughShooter | instruction set architecture |
| 21:38.27 | DTRemenak | instruction set architecture |
| 21:38.27 | JeffM2501 | apple needs to get low end cheap CPUs now |
| 21:38.29 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 21:38.32 | DTRemenak | gah, ToughShooter types too fast |
| 21:38.39 | JeffM2501 | there was no way they could make a G5 mini |
| 21:38.46 | JeffM2501 | to much eat and juice |
| 21:38.58 | ToughShooter | DTRemenak: No, I'm a slow typer, I suppose I've started sooner ;) |
| 21:39.12 | DTRemenak | I had to correct "insturction" also :) |
| 21:39.17 | Silent_Swan | ok, have a (w)intel based "LOW END" system, and have a PPC-based "HIGH END" system |
| 21:39.27 | JeffM2501 | Silent_Swan, that is what they are doing |
| 21:39.34 | Silent_Swan | so the (w)intel box for the consumers, the G5's for people who want the power |
| 21:39.36 | JeffM2501 | the PPCs will be around till lke 2010 |
| 21:39.42 | Silent_Swan | not what i heard |
| 21:39.47 | JeffM2501 | that's what I read |
| 21:39.54 | ToughShooter | there is nothing to fill the gap between G4 and G5 |
| 21:39.57 | Silent_Swan | they'd be *supported* until 2007 or something... |
| 21:39.58 | JeffM2501 | they want the pentium M |
| 21:39.59 | DTRemenak | supported until 2010. produced until 2007 |
| 21:40.02 | Silent_Swan | i dunno, i'll have to read on it |
| 21:40.08 | Silent_Swan | DTRemenak thank you |
| 21:40.08 | ToughShooter | and the G5's get really hot |
| 21:40.12 | JeffM2501 | they do |
| 21:40.18 | JeffM2501 | that is why they can't get a G5 lapy ether |
| 21:40.26 | JeffM2501 | and IBM has no plans for lower power chips sadly |
| 21:40.37 | ToughShooter | all the lappys would not have more performance |
| 21:40.40 | JeffM2501 | that was where motorola did most of the reserach |
| 21:40.49 | JeffM2501 | the pentium M isn't a bad CPU |
| 21:40.56 | JeffM2501 | much better then a P4 |
| 21:41.20 | ToughShooter | and the mobile variant of G5 is only at around 1.2 GHZ right now, IIRC |
| 21:41.38 | Silent_Swan | haha |
| 21:41.44 | bryjen | IBM no longer make the ThinkPad. |
| 21:41.57 | DTRemenak | I know :( I thought that was a bad decision too |
| 21:42.20 | bryjen | All their PPC stuff is workstations or servers |
| 21:42.33 | bryjen | no "personal" class |
| 21:42.35 | ToughShooter | IBM had no interest in VMX 1 putting on G5s, too |
| 21:42.52 | ToughShooter | they won't update to VMX 2, either |
| 21:43.19 | DTRemenak | bryjen: I know. Doesn't mean I have to like it though :) |
| 21:43.25 | JeffM2501 | I think also apple wants to be able to say they can dual boot |
| 21:43.32 | JeffM2501 | as that will help sell minis |
| 21:43.59 | ToughShooter | but Apple insisted on VMX 1 one they've tacked it on with sad faces |
| 21:45.30 | ToughShooter | as long no 3rd party computers can't boot OS X it might be good |
| 21:45.56 | bryjen | could the funky zoom NaN be coming from BZDB, at the end of Roaming.cxx? |
| 21:45.56 | JeffM2501 | why keep your good OS just on expensive hardware? |
| 21:46.02 | JeffM2501 | that's very selfish |
| 21:46.22 | ToughShooter | that's how they earn profit |
| 21:46.24 | JeffM2501 | and why didn't they get a custom chip then? |
| 21:46.31 | JeffM2501 | something that is like an X86 mod |
| 21:46.32 | bryjen | JeffM2501: if you're the one selling said hardware... |
| 21:46.34 | JeffM2501 | so that it's not possible |
| 21:46.38 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 21:46.47 | JeffM2501 | they are preping for selling OSX only |
| 21:46.50 | JeffM2501 | you can tell |
| 21:46.55 | JeffM2501 | there are many things they could have done |
| 21:47.02 | JeffM2501 | to prevent it |
| 21:47.03 | ToughShooter | No one said something about costum micro code |
| 21:47.26 | JeffM2501 | I'm saying they COULD have, if they didn't want it to run on other hardware |
| 21:47.32 | JeffM2501 | but they didn't |
| 21:47.33 | DTRemenak | bryjen: all comparisons involving NaN are false |
| 21:47.40 | bryjen | a custom chip doesn't get the economies of scale, reliable production volumes (hmm, like PPC....) |
| 21:47.42 | JeffM2501 | if the choice to move to intel was just about cost of chips |
| 21:48.00 | DTRemenak | so if (camera.zoom > BZDB.eval("camera.zoomMax")) and if (camera.zoom < BZDB.eval("camera.zoomMin")) will never be true if BZDB.eval returns NaN |
| 21:48.03 | JeffM2501 | I'll bet intel could have made them a pentium mod with a small change just for them |
| 21:48.04 | ToughShooter | and the lappy problem |
| 21:48.08 | JeffM2501 | I'll bet they are geting there own version anyway |
| 21:48.12 | JeffM2501 | not an off the shelf P4 |
| 21:48.26 | JeffM2501 | they want it to run windows, and they want it to run on other hardware |
| 21:48.34 | JeffM2501 | so they have the option of going software only |
| 21:48.49 | bryjen | DTRemenak: float BZDB.eval() can return NaN |
| 21:48.59 | DTRemenak | yes |
| 21:49.01 | JeffM2501 | it's good biz practice to keep your options opne |
| 21:49.05 | DTRemenak | but that is not assigned into zoom |
| 21:49.11 | JeffM2501 | they have a very good in with the ipod, they arn't gonna blow it |
| 21:49.28 | JeffM2501 | they need marketshare, and bad |
| 21:49.29 | ToughShooter | they care too much about the ipod |
| 21:49.35 | bryjen | camera.zoom = BZDB.eval("camera.zoomMin"); |
| 21:49.43 | JeffM2501 | the mini showed that cost was a huge thing |
| 21:49.48 | DTRemenak | bryjen: only if (camera.zoom < BZDB.eval("camera.zoomMin")) { |
| 21:49.52 | ToughShooter | I waited so long for PCI-Express but nothing came |
| 21:49.53 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, it is the bigest marketshare thing for them |
| 21:50.00 | bryjen | or > Max |
| 21:50.12 | JeffM2501 | at some point an ipod killer will come along |
| 21:50.12 | DTRemenak | and (camera.zoom < BZDB.eval("camera.zoomMin")) is false if EITHER camera.zoom OR BZDB.eval are NaN |
| 21:50.19 | DTRemenak | all comparisons involving NaN are false |
| 21:50.23 | bryjen | ah |
| 21:50.29 | JeffM2501 | they are seting up to get back into the major PC market, before that happens |
| 21:50.29 | ToughShooter | JeffM2501: Maybe but the Mac users are becomming less happy about it :y |
| 21:50.29 | DTRemenak | including NaN == NaN |
| 21:50.43 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, they arn't swaping to windows are they? |
| 21:51.13 | JeffM2501 | I didn't think so :) |
| 21:51.21 | JeffM2501 | so to them, there isn't realy a problem |
| 21:51.25 | JeffM2501 | some people will piss and moan |
| 21:51.31 | ToughShooter | no PCI-Express, lower quality of products etc |
| 21:51.41 | JeffM2501 | apple has never been on the cutting edge |
| 21:51.46 | JeffM2501 | how long did it take them for DDR |
| 21:51.51 | JeffM2501 | or even PCI? |
| 21:52.07 | ToughShooter | DDR makes not much sense with the G4 |
| 21:52.07 | JeffM2501 | remember nuBus? |
| 21:52.28 | ToughShooter | no |
| 21:52.37 | JeffM2501 | that is proably also a reason to change, perhaps the IBM chips don't play so well with the other industry standards |
| 21:53.03 | JeffM2501 | and time has shown that if you make the mac work with the same hardware as a PC, it sells a LOT better |
| 21:53.21 | JeffM2501 | the change to PCI, IDE, USB have all been good for them |
| 21:53.44 | JeffM2501 | the only thing they realy pushed forward with was firewire |
| 21:53.48 | JeffM2501 | at sony's behest |
| 21:53.53 | JeffM2501 | and that worked out well for them |
| 21:54.35 | JeffM2501 | apple shold a TON of minis |
| 21:54.44 | JeffM2501 | many to people who didn't own a mac |
| 21:54.53 | JeffM2501 | that was a big indicator to them |
| 21:55.33 | JeffM2501 | a lot of ipod owners just picked up a mini to go with the ipod :) |
| 21:55.58 | JeffM2501 | I did find it sad when I saw the ad for the mini "from the makers of the iPod" |
| 21:56.08 | ToughShooter | the problem is that there is nothing for all of them |
| 21:56.26 | JeffM2501 | the mini runs most software offerins for the mac just fine |
| 21:56.39 | JeffM2501 | your "average" user dosn't need a G5 powerhouse |
| 21:56.41 | ToughShooter | The imac is also "from the makers of the iPod", same design |
| 21:56.44 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 21:56.46 | JeffM2501 | and it sold TONS |
| 21:56.59 | JeffM2501 | many of those people later got a G5 when they wanted more power |
| 21:57.03 | JeffM2501 | apple needs new users |
| 21:57.16 | JeffM2501 | so that it can get more software |
| 21:57.52 | JeffM2501 | or I shoudl say more software companys to make versions for them |
| 21:58.06 | ToughShooter | I don't wonder that there is a good dev environment is comming with Mac OS X |
| 21:58.29 | JeffM2501 | for a first party free compiler Xcode is prety damnded nice |
| 21:58.36 | JeffM2501 | but thats one reason they ship it for free |
| 21:58.39 | JeffM2501 | to get more devs |
| 21:58.47 | JeffM2501 | computer tain't nothing with out software |
| 21:59.04 | JeffM2501 | for devs the mini was touted as the ease of port machine |
| 21:59.15 | JeffM2501 | a little comptuer to use to port your windows app |
| 21:59.29 | JeffM2501 | they got some big brains thinking behind this |
| 21:59.48 | JeffM2501 | some say the move to intel is there death, I think it's going to be the start of somethign big |
| 21:59.56 | JeffM2501 | Apple's big push |
| 22:00.15 | ToughShooter | Still no Photoshop Elements 4 for Macs |
| 22:00.17 | purple_cow | i don't think it'll make a huge difference one way or the other :P |
| 22:00.36 | JeffM2501 | purple_cow, for you, probalby not, but they will push it big |
| 22:00.43 | JeffM2501 | a run of entry level macs |
| 22:00.48 | purple_cow | maybe |
| 22:00.59 | JeffM2501 | that's the only reason I see them doing what they are doing |
| 22:00.59 | purple_cow | i doubt there will be significant cost benefits for the consumer |
| 22:01.06 | purple_cow | eh |
| 22:01.21 | *** part/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@63.147.94.151) |
| 22:01.25 | purple_cow | they said that ibm couldn't deliver on things like a laptop G5 chip |
| 22:01.37 | purple_cow | seems like a good reason to me |
| 22:01.37 | JeffM2501 | or a mini G5 chip |
| 22:01.49 | ToughShooter | IBM can deliver, but it's slower than the G4s |
| 22:01.50 | JeffM2501 | I think that is because they want more low power systems |
| 22:01.54 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 22:02.06 | JeffM2501 | yeah they need fast lower power chips for lapys and minis |
| 22:02.19 | JeffM2501 | the current G4 powerbook line is prety much tapped out |
| 22:02.23 | JeffM2501 | and that had to worry people |
| 22:02.39 | ToughShooter | and the P2 architecture looks better than the G5's |
| 22:02.49 | JeffM2501 | marketing at apple woudl be stupid to not push the dual boot ability of an intel mac |
| 22:03.05 | JeffM2501 | be a great way to get people on transition machines |
| 22:03.47 | JeffM2501 | in the end the average joe dosnt' care waht's under the hood, it's if it does what he wants |
| 22:04.12 | JeffM2501 | but then maybe it's because I "reek" of windows :0 |
| 22:04.30 | JeffM2501 | or it's the burito |
| 22:06.21 | ToughShooter | like my sister, she's running win98 with the same version that's at job |
| 22:06.34 | JeffM2501 | wellt hat's just stupid :) |
| 22:06.38 | JeffM2501 | all 9x shoudl be killed |
| 22:06.39 | JeffM2501 | and burned |
| 22:06.49 | JeffM2501 | and then put into a machine that burns things that are allready burned |
| 22:06.53 | JeffM2501 | then the machien burned |
| 22:06.55 | ToughShooter | fearing using any other OS would make it prolly not work |
| 22:07.17 | JeffM2501 | darwinism of software |
| 22:07.17 | ToughShooter | yeah, win is dead |
| 22:07.38 | JeffM2501 | if the software can't survive and updrade then it's not worth using it :) |
| 22:07.45 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, I've allways hated 9x |
| 22:07.47 | JeffM2501 | you know that |
| 22:07.50 | JeffM2501 | I only hate ME more |
| 22:08.00 | JeffM2501 | or maybe System 7 |
| 22:08.05 | JeffM2501 | maaayyybee |
| 22:08.07 | DTRemenak | yeah, but you didn't talk about burning the machine that burned the already-burned 9x :) |
| 22:08.19 | JeffM2501 | well I just remember that line just now |
| 22:08.25 | DTRemenak | you can't possibly hate System 7 more than ME |
| 22:08.28 | JeffM2501 | and old PA thing |
| 22:08.28 | ToughShooter | it's good that they don't develop the original windows any more |
| 22:08.39 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, color quick draw |
| 22:08.45 | JeffM2501 | resource forks |
| 22:08.58 | purple_cow | yay resource forks! |
| 22:09.08 | purple_cow | best file system ever |
| 22:09.08 | DTRemenak | typical uptimes of less than 15 minutes? |
| 22:09.08 | ToughShooter | in system 7 you had a debugger right in the OS |
| 22:09.24 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, asembly level sure |
| 22:09.28 | JeffM2501 | if you had a mac with the "button" |
| 22:09.33 | JeffM2501 | the "developer" button |
| 22:09.36 | DTRemenak | "System Restore" that should have been called "Murder my system PLEASE" |
| 22:09.45 | JeffM2501 | ME was a joke |
| 22:09.52 | JeffM2501 | system 7 finder was too |
| 22:09.56 | ToughShooter | JeffM2501: Why do you hate the "resource forks"? |
| 22:09.57 | DTRemenak | heh :) |
| 22:10.05 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, because they are lame |
| 22:10.10 | JeffM2501 | and I deal with them EVERY DAY |
| 22:10.19 | JeffM2501 | pascall interfaces in C suck |
| 22:10.22 | JeffM2501 | and suck hard |
| 22:10.37 | JeffM2501 | "ohh no, you need a size as the first char of that string" |
| 22:10.45 | ToughShooter | JeffM2501: http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/15422 ;) |
| 22:10.56 | JeffM2501 | we are not on a mac |
| 22:11.17 | ToughShooter | it's a resource fork editor I've written |
| 22:11.19 | JeffM2501 | we have our own resource compiler |
| 22:11.30 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, does it run on windows? :) |
| 22:11.36 | ToughShooter | because I loved it :/ |
| 22:11.36 | JeffM2501 | we used resourcer |
| 22:12.01 | JeffM2501 | now our reserouce forks are put into data fikes |
| 22:12.05 | JeffM2501 | and run under windows :) |
| 22:12.25 | ToughShooter | and resourcerer loads that? :o |
| 22:12.30 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 22:13.20 | ToughShooter | NTFS has ability to do several streams to a file, too |
| 22:19.22 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/Roaming.cxx: looks like search-and-replace was a tad to agressive. use the right bzdb variable to avoid excessive zooms. |
| 22:19.24 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, we have to run on fat32 :) |
| 22:19.30 | JeffM2501 | you'd die if you saw this |
| 22:19.36 | JeffM2501 | you'd say "abomination" |
| 22:20.01 | DTRemenak | fat32 is an abomination :) |
| 22:20.04 | JeffM2501 | we have mac windows, calling MFC list boxes :) |
| 22:20.11 | DTRemenak | ew |
| 22:20.12 | SportyGal | !weather 90277 |
| 22:20.17 | JeffM2501 | :) |
| 22:20.31 | JeffM2501 | now you know why I fear cludgy code, I see it every day |
| 22:20.40 | JeffM2501 | this is what happens when you keep patching stuff on top of other stuff |
| 22:20.46 | SportyGal | hrm, is Thelastspartan dead? |
| 22:20.48 | SportyGal | !weather 90277 |
| 22:20.53 | TheLastSpartan | SportyGal: The current temperature in Redondo Beach, California (90277) is 93°F. |
| 22:21.14 | JeffM2501 | no, just not as fast as you hope :) |
| 22:21.32 | SportyGal | JeffM2501: he gave me a time-out notice in PM |
| 22:21.47 | JeffM2501 | then the website it gets the info is not responding |
| 22:27.01 | Silent_Swan | *yaaaaaaaaaaawn* |
| 22:27.36 | JeffM2501 | did ya win the O2? |
| 22:28.14 | Silent_Swan | oh, no... havn't tried |
| 22:28.18 | Silent_Swan | when was the auction up? |
| 22:28.29 | Silent_Swan | i don't even have the link anymore |
| 22:28.58 | Silent_Swan | however... here's something you might like: |
| 22:29.03 | Silent_Swan | http://cgi.ebay.com/SGI-Silicon-Graphics-Maya-Temporary-Tattoos-QTY-10-RARE_W0QQitemZ5816089903QQcategoryZ11223QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
| 22:33.06 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 22:33.19 | JeffM2501 | it's in my price range :) |
| 22:33.33 | blast007 | :) |
| 22:33.44 | JeffM2501 | why would somone 1) make those, 2) sell them on e-bay |
| 22:34.22 | Silent_Swan | haa |
| 22:34.28 | Silent_Swan | that's what i was thinking |
| 22:35.48 | JeffM2501 | it's like I got some old post-its from a booth at cdc, shodl I seel those :) |
| 22:36.44 | Silent_Swan | *grin* |
| 22:36.56 | JeffM2501 | damn I can't type today |
| 22:36.58 | blast007 | probably could |
| 22:37.12 | blast007 | heck, I've seen a "creatively bent paperclip" on eBay |
| 22:37.28 | JeffM2501 | huanted shoes was best |
| 22:37.31 | menotume | JeffM2501: ewww, i would need an event on 'gameover' for this thing too |
| 22:37.49 | Silent_Swan | for all the linux fans: http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcone/bsdversuslinux.html |
| 22:37.50 | menotume | maybe i can implement event on game start/end |
| 22:38.03 | JeffM2501 | menotume, I think you need a lot of events |
| 22:38.14 | JeffM2501 | hence why doing it in bzfs may be better |
| 22:38.21 | menotume | just game start/end |
| 22:38.33 | JeffM2501 | cus BSD is way hotter |
| 22:38.33 | menotume | well, i'll do it plugin first |
| 22:38.42 | menotume | then, MAYBE in bzfs :) |
| 22:38.45 | JeffM2501 | notice the old linux guy int he background of the linux one :) |
| 22:39.22 | JeffM2501 | I'll bet he's looking at bsd |
| 22:41.09 | JeffM2501 | ether that or thinking "who took my hat" |
| 22:41.18 | Silent_Swan | not sure if anyone ever saw the Ark of the Covenant auction on ebay a while back... |
| 22:41.26 | Silent_Swan | it was one of the first big joke auctions :) |
| 22:41.35 | Silent_Swan | i have a printout of it someplace |
| 22:41.50 | JeffM2501 | I still say huanted shoes |
| 22:42.39 | Silent_Swan | i think i have some of those |
| 22:42.49 | Silent_Swan | they move someplace *other* than where i'm looking |
| 22:43.36 | Silent_Swan | at night, sometimes i hear then conspiring with my socks to find creative ways to disappear, never to be seen again |
| 22:43.50 | JeffM2501 | thru the mystical portal in the dryer? |
| 22:44.20 | Silent_Swan | yep |
| 22:44.31 | Silent_Swan | only... no that can't be... because my shoes don't go in the dryer |
| 22:44.42 | JeffM2501 | thats why they talk to the socks |
| 22:44.46 | JeffM2501 | to see what it's like |
| 22:45.10 | Silent_Swan | hah |
| 22:45.15 | Silent_Swan | the mystery is solved! |
| 22:45.27 | JeffM2501 | no, we still dont' know where they go |
| 22:46.54 | Silent_Swan | yeah, but you probably don't have 25 pairs of shoes, so for me, the mystery is compounded... |
| 22:47.38 | blast007 | I hear they are going to rebel against the oppressing feet |
| 22:47.49 | Silent_Swan | *sigh* mine already have :( |
| 22:50.05 | JeffM2501 | I think I Have 6 pairs |
| 22:50.10 | JeffM2501 | maybe |
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| 22:51.49 | JeffM2501 | what shoes get lost? |
| 22:52.00 | Silent_Swan | sad part is, i have maybe 25 pairs of shoes.. but of all those, the only ones that really get worn are the $2 flip flops |
| 22:52.16 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 22:52.22 | JeffM2501 | go with what's comfy |
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| 23:04.34 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org/ || http://my.BZFlag.org/bb/ || http://my.BZFlag.org/ || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/Download || #bzchat if you just want to chat || paste errors to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || BZFlag 2.0.4 Released! |
| 23:04.34 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 23:05.43 | bryjen | heh. observer mode works now. |
| 23:11.11 | DTRemenak | bryjen: yeah. non-debug mode uses -ffast-math, so NaN is not IEEE compliant |
| 23:12.20 | DTRemenak | so you were right about the BZDB.eval being the source of the error. without -ffast-math it would not happen because the NaN comparison would be false, but with it, gcc decided that one of them was true :S |
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