| 00:01.06 | *** join/#bzflag silverfox (n=vircuser@71.39.0.49) |
| 00:06.36 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10BZFlagG3D/ (8 files in 7 dirs): ortho mode and stuff like that |
| 00:11.55 | trepan | DTR's check doesn't really take into account teles or phydrvs, and doesn't really help much by discarding the packets, imho |
| 00:14.48 | brlcad | leaner is a dup |
| 00:16.15 | brlcad | leaner is a dup |
| 00:16.34 | brlcad | er, oops too :) |
| 00:19.02 | trepan | leaner = dup(?) |
| 00:19.10 | brlcad | comment from earlier |
| 00:20.00 | trepan | ~dict dup |
| 00:29.54 | trepan | what are folks using for terminal sizes for coding? 132x80 or bigger? |
| 00:32.06 | trepan | and do you stretch your lines out past 80 chars? |
| 00:32.47 | brlcad | code yes, comments not if I can help it |
| 00:36.14 | blast007 | hmm...Jeff isn't here anymore.. |
| 00:36.33 | blast007 | maybe someone else can see if there is something wrong with this: |
| 00:36.35 | blast007 | http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/23046 |
| 00:37.12 | brlcad | usually 200+ wide, but it varies depending on what I'm doing by +-150 or so |
| 00:38.58 | trepan | brlcad: typographers would growl in your general direction |
| 00:40.49 | brlcad | trepan: perhaps, but emacs prints up source pretty enough wrapping the long lines |
| 00:41.23 | brlcad | code should be more functional to coders first, not the documenters ;) |
| 00:44.07 | *** join/#bzflag dujavi (n=zedi@71-10-74-157.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com) |
| 00:44.43 | trepan | code should be easily readable to other coders, but maybe that's just me crazy talking |
| 00:45.01 | *** join/#bzflag wegstar (n=foo@allegro/user/wegstar) |
| 00:54.06 | brlcad | so you're proponenting shorter or longer lines? :) |
| 00:55.07 | Mr_Molez | . |
| 00:55.49 | dujavi | I think programming is faster even if you have to add a whole lot of comments to the code |
| 00:57.57 | brlcad | blast007: where'd that inline format() come from? |
| 00:58.14 | blast007 | I belive that is copied from TextUtils |
| 00:58.17 | dujavi | lol |
| 00:58.36 | blast007 | I got it out of the vocaliser plugin |
| 00:59.27 | brlcad | blast007: try a %lf |
| 00:59.34 | blast007 | k |
| 00:59.39 | dujavi | ? |
| 00:59.57 | dujavi | 05%lf? |
| 01:00.36 | brlcad | blast007: I don't think that's the problem, looks more like something not initialized being printed |
| 01:01.31 | blast007 | that gives the same output |
| 01:01.51 | dujavi | I don't think that is of public interest |
| 01:01.59 | dujavi | Is it? |
| 01:02.11 | blast007 | dujavi: huh? |
| 01:02.43 | brlcad | dujavi: what _are_ you talking about? |
| 01:02.52 | dujavi | I have no idea what your talking about |
| 01:03.06 | blast007 | then maybe it doesn't involve you? :) |
| 01:03.29 | wegstar | ... |
| 01:03.30 | blast007 | this channel is also for developer discussion |
| 01:03.35 | dujavi | oh |
| 01:03.37 | blast007 | as well as general bzflag issues |
| 01:03.40 | brlcad | because it makes no sense to you doesn't make it not of public interest :) |
| 01:03.49 | dujavi | I see |
| 01:05.02 | I_Died_Once | gah, go ahead with the pruning of the private Planet MoFo forums, Jeff |
| 01:05.23 | blast007 | I_Died_Once: jeff isn't here at the moment :) |
| 01:05.36 | I_Died_Once | well tell him when he gets here then |
| 01:05.48 | brlcad | there are tools to do the wrapping on demand, there's just little point to wrapping to 80 these days |
| 01:06.03 | brlcad | the vast majority are not reading code off of actual vt100 terminals any more |
| 01:06.18 | brlcad | heck even my console mode boot is wider than 80 |
| 01:07.27 | trepan | orchid: ditto |
| 01:09.32 | brlcad | but otherwise, it's meh'ish |
| 01:10.37 | brlcad | blast007: smells of stack stomping |
| 01:10.44 | brlcad | what's the debugger say? |
| 01:13.46 | blast007 | unfortunately, I'm not the best at reading the debugger ;) |
| 01:14.47 | blast007 | stepping through, I've seen several of <Bad Ptr> (bad pointer?) |
| 01:15.43 | blast007 | ex: _Bx{_Buf=0x0012e718 "Hello!" _Ptr=0x6c6c6548 <Bad Ptr> }std::basic_string<char,std::char_traits<char>,std::allocator<char> >::_Bxty |
| 01:16.18 | brlcad | yeah, some sort of corruption |
| 01:16.25 | brlcad | probably occurred elsewhere |
| 01:17.44 | blast007 | think that is during the process of running c_str() in the format() line |
| 01:19.08 | brlcad | possibly |
| 01:19.11 | brlcad | try removing the inline |
| 01:19.28 | brlcad | oh, I get corruption here too |
| 01:19.56 | orchid | DEVINFO 10. Try to stay within 80 column if possible |
| 01:21.08 | orchid | !dict gabble |
| 01:21.12 | TheLastSpartan | orchid: wn, gcide, and moby-thes responded: gcide: Gabble \Gab"ble\, n. 1. Loud or rapid talk without meaning. [1913 Webster] Forthwith a hideous gabble rises loud Among the builders. --Milton. [1913 Webster] 2. Inarticulate sounds rapidly uttered; as of fowls. [1913 Webster]; wn: gabble n : rapid and indistinct speech [syn: {jabber}, {jabbering}] v : speak (about unimportant (6 more messages) |
| 01:21.29 | brlcad | 2.2 (atupone 02-Jul-05): 10) Do not code very long line. Try to stay within 80 column if possible |
| 01:22.12 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=jeffm@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
| 01:22.12 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 01:22.23 | brlcad | there was no #10 before July of this year :) |
| 01:22.33 | orchid | nevertheless |
| 01:23.04 | brlcad | quitetheless |
| 01:23.08 | JeffM2501 | w00t sake and tortilla chips... it's ma birthday! |
| 01:23.17 | brlcad | excellent! |
| 01:23.45 | blast007 | JeffM2501: I have a simple plugin (http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/23046) that exibits the format issues, but brlcad is looking at it a bit |
| 01:24.15 | JeffM2501 | he is smart |
| 01:24.19 | JeffM2501 | he can make it go |
| 01:24.25 | blast007 | :) |
| 01:24.45 | orange | I finally gave up on 80 column lines... how many people are still in displays that only support 80? |
| 01:24.52 | brlcad | smart alec maybe |
| 01:24.56 | orange | I would venture to guess that number is close to zero |
| 01:25.18 | JeffM2501 | sover alec |
| 01:25.30 | brlcad | mm.. that reminds me |
| 01:26.31 | brlcad | yum |
| 01:28.33 | JeffM2501 | and to you sir, I say...... Underpants! |
| 01:28.59 | JeffM2501 | sake + gatorade === BAD |
| 01:29.04 | JeffM2501 | just in case you were wondering |
| 01:29.13 | brlcad | good to know |
| 01:32.31 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, you will find this funny http://daringfireball.net/2005/09/anthropomorphized |
| 01:32.42 | JeffM2501 | "The iTunes 5 Announcement From the Perspective of an Anthropomorphized Brushed Metal User Interface Theme" |
| 01:35.47 | purple_cow | hahahaha |
| 01:36.10 | JeffM2501 | "(It?s not yet 10 a.m., but Aqua is drunk.)" |
| 01:38.38 | brlcad | JeffM2501: hehe, that's pretty good |
| 01:39.11 | JeffM2501 | verily |
| 01:41.47 | brlcad | blast007: it's the varargs, but I'm just not seeing what yet |
| 01:42.24 | *** join/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 01:42.30 | JeffM2501 | it's entirely posible I screwqed it up when I exposed it |
| 01:42.30 | JeffM2501 | oh |
| 01:42.38 | JeffM2501 | but then it wouldn't fail when it's in your code too |
| 01:43.21 | brlcad | it "looks" okay.. but clearly crashing here |
| 01:43.56 | blast007 | hmm |
| 01:45.00 | RPG_ | wow |
| 01:45.08 | RPG_ | is that exaggerated? |
| 01:45.14 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 01:45.21 | JeffM2501 | prune prune prune |
| 01:45.47 | RPG_ | does removing that many posts speed up MySQL's response time? |
| 01:46.00 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 01:46.38 | RPG_ | i alwasy thought that |
| 01:46.47 | RPG_ | i'd prune my visitor log databse when it exceeded 100KB |
| 01:47.27 | JeffM2501 | why? |
| 01:48.03 | RPG_ | I assumed the more you had in a DB, the slower it's response times were when you wanted to extract data |
| 01:48.17 | JeffM2501 | 100k aint' nothing |
| 01:48.24 | JeffM2501 | and depends how your finding it |
| 01:48.39 | JeffM2501 | worry when it's in the giglybytes |
| 01:48.45 | RPG_ | heh |
| 01:48.50 | blast007 | databases are designed to scale to large sizes :) |
| 01:48.56 | RPG_ | pruning the log database doesn't really hurt anyways |
| 01:49.07 | RPG_ | just gets rid of who visited my website, and what pages they viewed, for last yera |
| 01:49.07 | JeffM2501 | yeah ebay dosn't worrry about a 100k table |
| 01:49.53 | dujavi | Question, What is the fastest way to access data "and depends how your finding it" |
| 01:50.15 | dujavi | I use mysql and find this interesting |
| 01:50.18 | JeffM2501 | from disk? |
| 01:50.19 | RPG_ | obviously a SEARCH would take longer than a SELECT |
| 01:50.33 | JeffM2501 | and there are caching algos and stuff |
| 01:50.42 | dujavi | I usually use select |
| 01:50.47 | JeffM2501 | if you have keys, it keeps offsets they are faster |
| 01:50.56 | RPG_ | i only got indexes |
| 01:50.59 | JeffM2501 | depends how your db is set up and what the select actualy has to do |
| 01:51.10 | JeffM2501 | there is an art to db design |
| 01:51.12 | dujavi | I guess I should set up some caching |
| 01:51.43 | JeffM2501 | gnearly you want the shortest path to your data, so it's best to keep a key value around |
| 01:51.46 | JeffM2501 | like userID |
| 01:51.58 | JeffM2501 | so you spend less time searching for stuff that matches "thing" |
| 01:52.09 | dujavi | Primary keys? |
| 01:52.16 | dujavi | not foreign keys? |
| 01:52.16 | RPG_ | thats a big flaw of the mapatorium |
| 01:52.19 | JeffM2501 | uniques are great :) |
| 01:52.29 | JeffM2501 | I don't know the sql terms |
| 01:52.37 | JeffM2501 | I just know what it's doing on the backend |
| 01:52.41 | dujavi | oh |
| 01:52.47 | JeffM2501 | with structures and offsets and stuff |
| 01:53.03 | brlcad | oh DUH! |
| 01:53.10 | brlcad | blast007: sheesh.. |
| 01:53.21 | brlcad | sprintf doesn't take a va_list |
| 01:53.27 | brlcad | vsprintf does |
| 01:53.38 | dujavi | thank you |
| 01:53.46 | dujavi | I'm learning |
| 01:54.27 | dujavi | BZflag is one of my favorates |
| 01:54.32 | RPG_ | amen |
| 01:54.54 | dujavi | What major thing are you guys planning on adding |
| 01:54.59 | JeffM2501 | I like pie!! |
| 01:55.12 | JeffM2501 | planning? |
| 01:55.15 | JeffM2501 | whats that? |
| 01:55.18 | dujavi | Or already adding |
| 01:55.28 | RPG_ | masterbot :) |
| 01:55.33 | dujavi | to the next release |
| 01:55.34 | JeffM2501 | 2.0.4 is allmost done |
| 01:55.40 | RPG_ | http://masterbot.bzflag.org |
| 01:55.42 | JeffM2501 | there are no more features for it |
| 01:55.53 | JeffM2501 | masterbot is a seperate thing,not part of "the vission" |
| 01:56.08 | RPG_ | it's like the sunglasses you ned to see "the vission" |
| 01:56.11 | dujavi | "Bzflag.bounceme.net is down for maintenance." |
| 01:56.13 | orchid | dujavi: http://cvs.bzflag.org/viewcvs.py/bzflag/bzflag/ChangeLog?view=markup |
| 01:56.16 | RPG_ | gragh |
| 01:56.22 | RPG_ | meteorite screwed somethign up |
| 01:57.08 | dujavi | Mostly bug fixes? |
| 01:57.26 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 01:57.36 | JeffM2501 | 2.0.4 has to be compatable with 2.0.0 |
| 01:57.42 | JeffM2501 | all the 2.0.x ones are compatable |
| 01:57.49 | JeffM2501 | next major would be 2.2.0 |
| 01:57.50 | dujavi | ok |
| 01:58.52 | dujavi | How long do I have to wait |
| 01:59.02 | brlcad | until it's posted |
| 01:59.12 | JeffM2501 | wait for what? |
| 01:59.12 | RPG_ | they don't have release dates |
| 01:59.14 | JeffM2501 | 2.0.4? |
| 01:59.16 | RPG_ | they just come out when they come out |
| 01:59.22 | JeffM2501 | you can get RC1 rightnow |
| 01:59.29 | dujavi | :) |
| 01:59.31 | JeffM2501 | I'll do RC2 tomorow |
| 01:59.39 | JeffM2501 | I expect 2.0.4 final by end of next week |
| 02:00.10 | dujavi | Going to add HP to 2.2.0? |
| 02:00.17 | RPG_ | HP? |
| 02:00.20 | dujavi | Hit Points |
| 02:00.27 | RPG_ | Hit Points? |
| 02:00.28 | JeffM2501 | that would not be bzflag |
| 02:00.38 | RPG_ | ohhhh |
| 02:00.42 | RPG_ | "damage" |
| 02:01.41 | JeffM2501 | in general major gameplay changes like that will not happen |
| 02:01.45 | dujavi | There doesn't seem to be many new features to add, seams pretty well put together as an arcade style game |
| 02:01.48 | JeffM2501 | and noone realy has a plan |
| 02:02.01 | dujavi | Let's here it |
| 02:02.12 | orange | mmm, popcorn |
| 02:02.20 | JeffM2501 | POPCORN!!!! 1.0RC2 |
| 02:02.56 | dujavi | want to send me some |
| 02:03.06 | dujavi | :) |
| 02:03.11 | RPG_ | via SOCKETS! |
| 02:03.34 | dujavi | yea |
| 02:03.40 | wegstar | I guess the popcorn got corrupted on the way over :P |
| 02:03.45 | dujavi | :) |
| 02:04.09 | dujavi | Or burnt |
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| 02:11.24 | SLB | hi |
| 02:11.47 | RPG_ | bonjour |
| 02:12.04 | SLB | Whats going on |
| 02:13.57 | wegstar | ... |
| 02:27.32 | I_Died_Once | put 'em on slowly... |
| 02:27.35 | I_Died_Once | oops, wrong window |
| 02:27.36 | I_Died_Once | sorry |
| 02:33.02 | RPG_ | line: |
| 02:33.02 | RPG_ | if(((bz_PlayerDieEventData*)eventData)->flagKilledWith){ |
| 02:33.02 | RPG_ | error: |
| 02:33.02 | RPG_ | g:\Programs\masterbot\Logger.cpp(27) : error C2451: conditional expression of type 'bzApiString' is illegal |
| 02:33.02 | RPG_ | solution: |
| 02:33.02 | RPG_ | please? |
| 02:34.41 | JeffM2501 | you can't just test a string in an IF |
| 02:34.47 | JeffM2501 | what are you trying to see if it is? |
| 02:34.58 | RPG_ | i want to see if that value exists |
| 02:35.05 | JeffM2501 | it's a varialbe |
| 02:35.05 | RPG_ | i.e. if the player was killed with a player holding a flag |
| 02:35.08 | JeffM2501 | it allways exists |
| 02:35.13 | I_Died_Once | might be the same thing that causes THIS error: |
| 02:35.14 | I_Died_Once | ./bzfs: symbol lookup error: /home/death/bzflag/plugins/racetoseven/racetoseven.so: undefined symbol: _Z8tokenizeRKSsS0_ib |
| 02:35.18 | JeffM2501 | you want to see if it's not a 0 lenth string then |
| 02:35.26 | JeffM2501 | I_Died_Once, no, he just dosn't know C |
| 02:39.00 | RPG_ | There's an interesting program on ABC, about disaster readiness, if you're looking for something to watch. |
| 02:39.27 | JeffM2501 | ABC? |
| 02:39.38 | RPG_ | yes |
| 02:39.38 | JeffM2501 | like old school broadcast TV? |
| 02:39.42 | BenUrban | lmao |
| 02:39.54 | JeffM2501 | why would anyone go below 200? |
| 02:39.54 | RPG_ | cable tv |
| 02:39.57 | BenUrban | always broadcasting commercials |
| 02:40.05 | BenUrban | something like that |
| 02:45.09 | I_Died_Once | I wish I knew why bzfscron didn't like my crontab |
| 02:46.21 | RPG_ | is this the right way to get the time from the API? |
| 02:46.22 | RPG_ | bz_localTime *currentTime; |
| 02:46.22 | RPG_ | bz_getLocaltime(currentTime); |
| 02:47.29 | RPG_ | tuche |
| 02:47.31 | RPG_ | g:\programs\masterbot\logger.cpp(121) : warning C4700: local variable 'currentTime' used without having been initialized |
| 02:51.13 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 02:51.24 | JeffM2501 | take the * off the variable |
| 02:51.29 | JeffM2501 | and pass in the address with & |
| 02:51.34 | JeffM2501 | and LEARN C!!!!!!!! |
| 02:53.21 | purple_cow | C is for losers |
| 02:53.25 | wegstar | ;) |
| 02:53.38 | JeffM2501 | learn python! |
| 02:53.42 | purple_cow | all the cool kids know that the ++ means it's better |
| 02:53.43 | JeffM2501 | learn SOMETHING ;) |
| 02:54.06 | JeffM2501 | photoshop CS make brain hurt |
| 03:03.55 | blast007 | popcorn: ah, cool, vsprintf works a lot better ;D |
| 03:04.31 | brlcad | good good |
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| 03:16.58 | supertanke1 | hi |
| 03:17.48 | blast007 | hello |
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| 03:30.26 | wegstar | :) |
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| 09:58.02 | ruskie | [LinuxGameTome] "Bloomington Linux Gaming Festival" -> http://happypenguin.org/newsitem?id=5830 |
| 09:58.12 | ruskie | bzflag will be played as well :) |
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| 12:13.16 | LePoulpe303 | Hi all |
| 12:13.46 | LePoulpe303 | i have problem for launching bzflag from command line in windoz |
| 12:13.56 | LePoulpe303 | anyone may help ? |
| 12:14.33 | ruskie | gaahh what great team... I ask for help with delivering the flag and one of my teammates jumps up and shoots me... |
| 12:14.39 | ruskie | now that's what I call incompetance |
| 12:24.49 | blast007 | LePoulpe303: describe the exact problem, and someone might be able to help if you wait a bit |
| 12:26.43 | LePoulpe303 | problem solved but it was painful |
| 12:28.40 | LePoulpe303 | i was trying to launch bzflag from a python program , and there was a mess because path contains spaces ("Program Files") |
| 12:29.28 | LePoulpe303 | i resolved by converting to short directory name |
| 12:39.12 | BenUrban | LePoulpe303: "Program Files" is usually named "Progra~1" in dos 8.3 |
| 12:39.15 | BenUrban | fyi |
| 12:40.31 | BenUrban | at least it was in 95 through ME |
| 12:40.45 | LePoulpe303 | yes but i needed to provide a generic solution |
| 12:40.53 | BenUrban | try adding quotes |
| 12:41.08 | LePoulpe303 | python dislike that |
| 12:41.14 | BenUrban | no it doesn't |
| 12:41.19 | LePoulpe303 | you can put them |
| 12:41.25 | BenUrban | '"Program Files"' |
| 12:41.39 | LePoulpe303 | but when you call the function to launch the process, it raisesan error if there are quotes in path |
| 12:41.44 | BenUrban | oh |
| 12:41.51 | BenUrban | then it's not python that dislikes it |
| 12:42.00 | LePoulpe303 | i dunno |
| 12:42.00 | brlcad | escape the spaces |
| 12:42.15 | BenUrban | if quotes don't work, that won't work either |
| 12:42.17 | LePoulpe303 | spawnv reutrns : invalid argument |
| 12:42.24 | BenUrban | ... |
| 12:42.29 | brlcad | not necessarily |
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| 14:12.48 | ibunny | mornin |
| 14:16.41 | jpa- | bunny. |
| 14:17.26 | ibunny | jpi- |
| 14:17.53 | ibunny | so wheres mysean? |
| 14:22.16 | jpa- | i think he escaped to space |
| 14:22.32 | jpa- | but not necessarily |
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| 14:50.14 | ToughShooter | Hi kahcepb |
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| 14:56.12 | CBG | bb admins: you mighh wanna look at http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5254&highlight= and http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5253&highlight= |
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| 16:17.40 | Tupone | Chestal: ready to hear me ? :) |
| 16:18.10 | Chestal | Tupone: maybe :-) |
| 16:18.33 | Tupone | I thought about Mouse enhancement and jitter |
| 16:19.28 | Tupone | The error that the observer player can have in position when a tank has an acceleration is 0.5 * a * t * t |
| 16:20.02 | Tupone | now if the error is bigger then limit a message is sent |
| 16:20.04 | Chestal | for a constant a, yes |
| 16:20.33 | Tupone | unless you hit the throtling limit |
| 16:20.44 | Tupone | that is now at 1/30 of sec |
| 16:22.02 | Tupone | I think we should not give the observer a too big jitter. We tested with brlcad the max value of error position being 0.09 |
| 16:22.10 | Tupone | That is the value that is set in global |
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| 16:22.33 | Tupone | so I did this reasoning : |
| 16:22.43 | Chestal | hmm |
| 16:22.58 | Chestal | the error you get with above formula and the 0.03s is max 0.3375m |
| 16:23.00 | Tupone | 0.09 compared to 1/2 * a * 1/900 |
| 16:23.31 | Tupone | with what acceleratiobn ? |
| 16:23.33 | Chestal | this is neglibible when compared to the offset caused by lag |
| 16:23.36 | Chestal | with max accel |
| 16:23.41 | Tupone | 50 ? |
| 16:23.50 | Chestal | a=25/0.03 |
| 16:24.09 | Tupone | 50 not 25 |
| 16:24.21 | Chestal | max speed is 25 |
| 16:24.31 | Tupone | from back to forward is 50 |
| 16:24.39 | Chestal | that is 25*1.5=37.5 |
| 16:24.49 | Chestal | back is half speed |
| 16:24.55 | Tupone | ah yes |
| 16:24.59 | Chestal | anyway, this doesn't change much |
| 16:25.16 | Tupone | offset by lag is predictable by good player |
| 16:25.18 | Chestal | what is this 0.09 you measured? I don;t understand |
| 16:25.39 | Chestal | you can only predict offset for constant motion |
| 16:25.43 | Tupone | 0.09 is the error in position that says DR is wrong, and a message should be sent |
| 16:25.56 | Chestal | well, a goo dplayer might _guess_ where the other player is moving, anticipate movments |
| 16:26.41 | Tupone | not without information. Error can be 37.5 * / 30 |
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| 16:27.20 | Tupone | 37.5 is speed change |
| 16:27.36 | Tupone | 1/30 is the time you are not informed for throttling |
| 16:28.17 | Chestal | yes |
| 16:28.49 | Chestal | this is about 1m, not very much |
| 16:28.57 | Tupone | so instead of having an error in position of 0.09 you could reach 1.2 |
| 16:29.06 | Chestal | was the default _positionTolerance changed lately? |
| 16:29.14 | Chestal | 0.09 is _very_ small |
| 16:29.14 | Tupone | it was 0.001 |
| 16:29.21 | Chestal | that is extremely small :-) |
| 16:29.51 | Tupone | with more you see player jumping from 1 position to another |
| 16:30.13 | Chestal | when they jiggle around? |
| 16:30.21 | Chestal | with smooth movement, it all shouldn't make any difference |
| 16:30.22 | Tupone | yeah |
| 16:30.37 | Tupone | if is running at constant speed you don't notice |
| 16:30.41 | Tupone | :) |
| 16:31.37 | Tupone | I was thinking of limit acceleration so you get a x5 or a little more in position error |
| 16:32.01 | Tupone | but actually limiting. One of the concern of player is the ME tank have an high jitter |
| 16:32.33 | Tupone | another things is that they shoot at shot-speed + max-tank-speed |
| 16:32.43 | Tupone | instantaneously |
| 16:32.48 | Chestal | well, almost |
| 16:32.57 | Chestal | it's not possible to synchronize it that well manualle |
| 16:33.04 | Chestal | my old bots wre good at it, though :-) |
| 16:33.10 | Chestal | one frame: 0-> max speed, next frame: shoot |
| 16:33.22 | Chestal | next frame: full stop |
| 16:33.33 | Tupone | yeah. Would be better to limit acceleration |
| 16:33.47 | Chestal | I am not against limiting per se |
| 16:33.58 | Chestal | the tlz and dub servers have been using -a for some weeks |
| 16:34.16 | Chestal | I don't like to make the current change without new major release |
| 16:34.58 | Chestal | if I understand DTR's recent changes, 2.0.4 clients would have max acc. on 2.0.2 servers with -a 0 |
| 16:35.00 | orange | I think you should just make -a a mandatory parameter |
| 16:35.02 | Tupone | we always make change when people cheat. This is not a cheat, but they are exploiting some bzflag limit |
| 16:35.03 | Chestal | while older clients won't |
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| 16:35.21 | Chestal | server owners can set the -a values already |
| 16:35.28 | orange | that way people will have to make some decision, and will read the docs about why a limit is recommended |
| 16:35.29 | Chestal | if they think this makes the game play better |
| 16:35.33 | Chestal | the default coudl be changed in 2.2 |
| 16:35.46 | orange | Chestal: I'd never looked at -a before, because I didn't know I needed to |
| 16:35.54 | orange | server owners need to be informed somehow |
| 16:35.58 | Chestal | orange: I used it sometimes for fun |
| 16:36.07 | Tupone | I don't want to change default. I want to put a limit, otherwise DR is wrong |
| 16:36.09 | orange | making it a mandatory command-line parameter would force them to make a decision |
| 16:36.28 | orange | one way or the other... old or new, but at least they would make a decision |
| 16:36.44 | Chestal | Tupone: DR is also wrogn for y position, and by a lot |
| 16:37.02 | Chestal | jumping has potentially infinite vertical accel. |
| 16:37.03 | Tupone | or removing throttling, or increasing 0.09 to the same value the ME player has |
| 16:37.24 | Tupone | the only change that is version compatible is the -a |
| 16:37.38 | Tupone | for what I know |
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| 16:38.28 | Chestal | also, I'd like to see 'prove' that with the values that were/are in the code, there really is a noticable difference |
| 16:38.30 | Tupone | we should treat all the player equally, on all condition |
| 16:38.33 | Chestal | we could use the logging |
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| 16:38.59 | Tupone | we make a big session with learner a year ago |
| 16:39.12 | Tupone | not provable |
| 16:39.15 | Tupone | just sensation |
| 16:39.27 | Chestal | well, there must be a position difference |
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| 16:40.02 | Chestal | anyway, this is a second question |
| 16:40.24 | Tupone | all depend on the observer, how is near to the tank. We don't wanted to see jittered position in the window |
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| 16:41.19 | Tupone | another problem is that this player overload the network, I suppose that 30 packet/sec are too much :/ |
| 16:41.24 | Tupone | steadly |
| 16:41.38 | Tupone | as they play, so other jitter is inducted by queing |
| 16:41.40 | JeffM2501 | by the steady stream of text... should i wait for RC2? |
| 16:41.40 | Chestal | are you sure that 'ME' players send more packets? |
| 16:41.44 | Chestal | it could also be fewer packets |
| 16:41.57 | Chestal | a tank with linear acceleration will send several packets furing accel. |
| 16:42.28 | Chestal | while for a ME player, there will only be one packet for 0 -> full speed in the extreme case |
| 16:42.48 | Tupone | they don't play this way. They go back and forth |
| 16:42.55 | Chestal | but not 30 times a second |
| 16:43.04 | orange | not quite, but close :-) |
| 16:43.06 | Chestal | a 'normal' player will also go back and forth a lot |
| 16:43.20 | Chestal | and the client will send several packets for each forth/back |
| 16:43.47 | Tupone | but their position is near the futured position, if acc is slow, and normally they are slow |
| 16:43.48 | Chestal | but again: I like the slight limit we are using with -a now |
| 16:43.59 | Chestal | but maybe make the change less intrusive |
| 16:44.12 | Chestal | how about bzfs spits out a warning, if -a is not specified and suggests some good values? |
| 16:44.35 | trepan | and //break; |
| 16:44.56 | orange | Chestal: yes, that's exactly what I wanted :-) |
| 16:45.02 | trepan | extreme scenario, tank state is never updated |
| 16:45.04 | Tupone | again, DR is wrong or we have to remove throttling |
| 16:45.05 | orange | make -a a mandatory parameter |
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| 16:46.00 | JeffM2501 | like you can't start bzfs with out doing -a? |
| 16:46.31 | orange | yes |
| 16:46.34 | Tupone | -a mandatory means update in a lot of place |
| 16:46.37 | JeffM2501 | that is stupid |
| 16:46.45 | trepan | and then also make -j [on|off] manditory? |
| 16:46.45 | JeffM2501 | we have NEVER had manditor params |
| 16:46.47 | orange | say what you mean JeffM2501, don't hold back :-) |
| 16:46.56 | orange | by all means don't change anything |
| 16:46.56 | JeffM2501 | and if it's manditory, just default it |
| 16:47.07 | JeffM2501 | from a UI design that's dumb |
| 16:47.12 | JeffM2501 | if it's required then default it |
| 16:47.17 | JeffM2501 | it's what we do with all other things |
| 16:47.20 | orange | there is a default |
| 16:47.25 | orange | the point is not to silently change it |
| 16:47.36 | JeffM2501 | why are we changing it? |
| 16:47.41 | Tupone | I would limit that value to 5xMax-position-error. Later could be changed dynamically |
| 16:47.55 | JeffM2501 | silently changing it is better then breaking every single config out there |
| 16:48.01 | orange | that's been discussed at length, I was just proposing a way to get it to change without changing defaults out from under people |
| 16:48.11 | JeffM2501 | why are we changing this now is my question? |
| 16:48.20 | JeffM2501 | why RIGHT before we need a release? |
| 16:48.33 | JeffM2501 | when it's worked ok with a 0 default for how long? |
| 16:48.38 | trepan | orange: if it bugs ya that much, post a warning if -a isn't specified |
| 16:48.38 | Tupone | In my mind, this change was part of the release |
| 16:48.53 | Chestal | yes, that's also what I don't like about it. I don't want to have such a change _now_ |
| 16:49.01 | orange | trepan: doesn't bug me at all, actually... I just heard some people saying 'change the default' and some saying 'we cannot do that now' |
| 16:49.03 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, if it changes behavor THAT much, to the point that people notice and complain, I'd wait to the next major |
| 16:49.14 | Chestal | server owners can strill use the -a if they think there is a problem and they are aware of it |
| 16:49.16 | JeffM2501 | and well document it when we do change it |
| 16:49.25 | Chestal | that can be easily communicated to the good admins |
| 16:49.30 | Tupone | I can document the need |
| 16:49.58 | Tupone | irc log will say that :) |
| 16:50.06 | JeffM2501 | if it has this much discussion it sounds like it needs more testing before it's put into a release, not just hucked into a minor bug fix update. |
| 16:50.32 | JeffM2501 | to the average user 2.0.4 will be "just fixes" |
| 16:50.35 | JeffM2501 | and some eye candy |
| 16:50.36 | Tupone | We did test, just not publicly |
| 16:50.42 | JeffM2501 | THAT is the problem |
| 16:50.50 | orange | Chestal is using it publicly |
| 16:51.07 | JeffM2501 | we have the rule, no gameplay changes in revisions |
| 16:51.08 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v DTRemenak] by ChanServ |
| 16:51.11 | Chestal | all I noticed is that it doesn't make a difference tome, with the values I am using |
| 16:51.22 | JeffM2501 | this is for an end user consistency thing |
| 16:51.26 | JeffM2501 | not just for protocoll |
| 16:51.30 | Chestal | I haven't tried to specifically look for jittery DR or things, though |
| 16:52.00 | JeffM2501 | by testing I meant, other server ops, using the change in beta servers for weeks on end ( if it changes the game THAT much ) |
| 16:52.04 | Tupone | JeffM2501: some people are changing rules, the ME guys. I'm putting back the things how they were |
| 16:52.18 | JeffM2501 | so you set it back to 0? |
| 16:52.24 | Tupone | nope |
| 16:52.28 | JeffM2501 | it was 0 |
| 16:52.33 | JeffM2501 | I saw the code |
| 16:52.43 | Tupone | player changed the setting of the client |
| 16:52.55 | Tupone | to allow having almost infinite acceleration |
| 16:52.57 | JeffM2501 | well if a player mods his client, whopty do |
| 16:53.02 | Chestal | we are running with -a 45 38 on tlz serevr, I think dub is doing similar values |
| 16:53.06 | JeffM2501 | there are a ton of ways to cheat |
| 16:53.26 | Tupone | not declared a cheat because they do not change client, just OS setting |
| 16:53.28 | Chestal | it's not a cheat |
| 16:53.37 | trepan | jacked mouse sensitivity |
| 16:53.37 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, does your change make the game play difrent, on an unmoded client from 2.0.2 ? |
| 16:53.50 | Tupone | yes |
| 16:53.56 | JeffM2501 | then it can not go into 2.0.4 |
| 16:53.57 | Tupone | only for ME users |
| 16:54.10 | JeffM2501 | ok and on an unmoded OS |
| 16:54.15 | JeffM2501 | normal everyday user |
| 16:54.20 | Chestal | ME is no mod |
| 16:54.27 | Chestal | it's just a fast mouse or small mouse box |
| 16:54.36 | JeffM2501 | what does that have to do with OS? |
| 16:54.50 | Chestal | I can easily exceed the accel limits with my normal mouse settings, too |
| 16:54.54 | Chestal | just have to push my mosue real fast |
| 16:55.06 | JeffM2501 | well that is just bad design on our controlls :) |
| 16:55.19 | JeffM2501 | if it won't work consistenly with all setings then we've screwed that up |
| 16:55.23 | Chestal | people with that extreme style now basically can only go full forward or full backward |
| 16:55.27 | Tupone | yeah, bad design. We did not need those change until players exploited them |
| 16:55.29 | Chestal | and change this in 1 or few frames |
| 16:55.49 | JeffM2501 | then it sounds like it's a problem we fully have to evaluate. |
| 16:56.07 | JeffM2501 | so what is the change that you've made that make orange say we should make -a manditory? |
| 16:56.30 | Tupone | JeffM2501: there is another problem on DR |
| 16:56.35 | Tupone | linked to this |
| 16:56.38 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 16:56.46 | orange | my suggestion was just a way to make sure people were aware of how to set the value that is apparently very server-specific, without changing the defaults for everyone that might not work for everyone |
| 16:56.47 | JeffM2501 | and we have had this problem for how long? |
| 16:56.49 | Tupone | we have throttling on MsgUpdate |
| 16:57.05 | Tupone | like 30 per second max |
| 16:57.18 | JeffM2501 | orange, a nobile idea, but pracicaly unfeasable, people get mad when they have to make changes when upgrading. |
| 16:57.21 | orange | apparently this is a value that *needs* to be set, but the only default that won't break everyone's server is a bad default |
| 16:57.33 | orange | which is 0 |
| 16:57.40 | Chestal | my less intrusive suggestion was to just issue a warning on omission of -a |
| 16:57.51 | Tupone | in this frame, we can easily exceed by far the limit on DR, having jittered position appreciable |
| 16:57.55 | JeffM2501 | my proble with people saying it "NEEDS" to be set is the fact that the game has run with it for 13 years |
| 16:57.59 | orange | many would not see it, of course, but a warning is better than nothing |
| 16:58.00 | Chestal | so old configs woudl work with no change, but server owners who see the message can decide to change |
| 16:58.31 | orange | JeffM2501: it seems that recently researched information is showing that without it there are bugs that can be exploited, that's what I'm hearing |
| 16:58.48 | Chestal | I don't think theer is a bug per se |
| 16:58.55 | Chestal | at least it could never be proven |
| 16:58.59 | orange | design issues that can be exploited :-) |
| 16:59.13 | Tupone | there are error in position that can exceed the max allowed error |
| 16:59.25 | JeffM2501 | orange, we have 1000's of bugs that are explited, is the the most important one we shoudl work on RIGHT now? |
| 16:59.31 | Chestal | there were some situations where it seemed suspicious that a fast back-forward tank wasn't hit by shots |
| 16:59.40 | orange | JeffM2501: it's the one people are working on |
| 16:59.42 | JeffM2501 | speicaly RIGHT before a release |
| 16:59.50 | Chestal | but whenever I tried to analyze it I couldn't reproduce such a situation, only basic shoot-throughs which turned out to be simple lag |
| 16:59.53 | JeffM2501 | orange, that dosn't mean they are right to work on it |
| 17:00.06 | orange | yeah, patches welcome |
| 17:01.02 | JeffM2501 | well we can allways just intelgently design it |
| 17:01.08 | JeffM2501 | that's why eveyrone is talking about it :) |
| 17:01.26 | JeffM2501 | making a param manditory dosn't seem like a real fix, but more of a stopgap |
| 17:01.31 | DTRemenak | geez, that's a lot of backlog. what's the issue with the code currently in cvs? |
| 17:01.31 | Tupone | I am all for hard limiting the max allowed acceleration |
| 17:01.37 | Chestal | Tupone: the error should only be there for 1/30s though. But this is too much theorizing for me, would be nice to have some form of visual analysis |
| 17:01.47 | orange | JeffM2501: if it is map-specific, and the default doesn't work, what else do you do? |
| 17:02.06 | orange | (those are 'if' statements) |
| 17:02.10 | JeffM2501 | orange, again, noone complained about this untill recently |
| 17:02.16 | orange | noone researched it until recently |
| 17:02.17 | JeffM2501 | we do what we did last year |
| 17:02.21 | JeffM2501 | fair enough |
| 17:02.28 | orange | according to the research, we lived with busted defaults |
| 17:02.28 | JeffM2501 | and I'm not saying we DON'T do anything about it |
| 17:02.37 | JeffM2501 | I'm just saying that maybe one more verison with the problem will be fine |
| 17:02.47 | JeffM2501 | if the only solution is to bust everyone's configs |
| 17:02.57 | JeffM2501 | I'd reather have breaking changes on a major version |
| 17:03.07 | Tupone | Chestal: are you ok that it is an error, that throttling raise. At least theorically |
| 17:03.09 | orange | ok, so go with a warning on this release and something else the next |
| 17:03.14 | Chestal | the current code is not breaking, but changing gameplay (ever so slightly) |
| 17:03.26 | JeffM2501 | I don't know yet orange, that's why I'm trying to understand what is happening. |
| 17:03.32 | DTRemenak | Chestal: changes it to eliminate the advantage from ME. is that not what we want? |
| 17:03.50 | JeffM2501 | making a huge consistncy change of requiring a parmater on a bug fix release seems very harsh |
| 17:03.52 | orange | hmmm |
| 17:03.55 | Chestal | Tupone: not really. When throttlign was inotroduced, a certain temporary DR error was accepted |
| 17:04.04 | Chestal | how could it be any different? |
| 17:04.13 | JeffM2501 | now is there no way we can auto calc a value by default? |
| 17:04.13 | orange | I don't think eliminating the advantage from ME is a good goal... eliminating an unfair advantage from ME is a good goal |
| 17:04.31 | orange | JeffM2501: because _tankSpeed can change on the fly, I'm told no |
| 17:04.43 | JeffM2501 | can we recompute the a value when tankspeed changes? |
| 17:04.49 | JeffM2501 | we do know when it changes |
| 17:04.50 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: current code takes _tankSpeed into account |
| 17:04.51 | orange | DTRemenak said it would require breaking protocol to communicate that back to the client |
| 17:05.00 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 17:05.07 | Tupone | orange: position error is not based on max speed, only on max acceleration. The other error is lag, and we cannot do anything for it |
| 17:05.12 | Chestal | DTRemenak: I don't think we know exactly what we want |
| 17:05.20 | Chestal | IMHO the issues are still not very well understood |
| 17:05.21 | JeffM2501 | can we set it to some BIG default that just makes sure that it dosnt' go too wacky? |
| 17:05.27 | DTRemenak | Chestal: now that sounds like a problem :) |
| 17:05.44 | JeffM2501 | and if it's 0, all it means is that people can change dir in one frame right? |
| 17:06.02 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: currently the limit is 0.05 secs to accelerate from 0 to _tankSpeed. |
| 17:06.04 | Tupone | speed and/or speed |
| 17:06.27 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, and what was it in 2.0.2? |
| 17:06.30 | Tupone | speed and/or direction :) |
| 17:06.41 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: unlimited. that's the issue. |
| 17:06.48 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 17:07.01 | JeffM2501 | so we are talking about something that changes gameplay by 0.05seconds? |
| 17:07.04 | DTRemenak | I could only manage about 0.20 secs with standard size mousebox but full acceleration & speed with windows settings |
| 17:07.07 | Chestal | DTRemenak: what I don't like about your recent change is that new clients will behave diffreretny from odl clients on old servers (if I read the code correctly) |
| 17:07.08 | JeffM2501 | can anyone even SEE that? |
| 17:07.14 | DTRemenak | so for almost EVERYONE there's no change at all |
| 17:07.21 | JeffM2501 | who are the complainers? |
| 17:07.27 | Chestal | 0.2s? that seems a bit sloooow |
| 17:07.30 | DTRemenak | Chestal: yeah...they won't be able to use ME |
| 17:07.39 | DTRemenak | I still fail to see that as a problem |
| 17:07.39 | Chestal | DTRemenak: are you pushing you mosue with your nose? ;-) |
| 17:07.45 | Tupone | lol |
| 17:07.51 | JeffM2501 | what is this "ME" the os or somethign else? |
| 17:08.22 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: "mouse enhancements". basically cranking the settings in such a way that you can flip the cursor around |
| 17:08.33 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 17:08.34 | Chestal | JeffM2501: it just refers to settings (mouse speed in OS, mouse box size in bz) that results in _extremely_ sensitive mouse steering in bz |
| 17:08.37 | Tupone | I heard that are 2 setting, one is the mouse box that is minimized + mouse acceleration ... I don't know how |
| 17:08.45 | JeffM2501 | ok, sure people do that in quake all the time |
| 17:08.51 | JeffM2501 | usualy screws with aim tho |
| 17:08.53 | JeffM2501 | but that's a user thing |
| 17:09.02 | Chestal | when I switched from ball mouse to optical mouse, my mosue speed probably quadrupled |
| 17:09.05 | DTRemenak | quake uses a real physics engine too, correct? |
| 17:09.07 | JeffM2501 | it sounds like adding the default is fine, and most people will never know |
| 17:09.17 | _Manu_ | Tupone, you set in OS max speed for the mouse.. and in bzflag.. smallest mouse box.. that's the trick |
| 17:09.28 | JeffM2501 | the tweakers may complain but they would have complained if the old server ops set -a right? |
| 17:09.40 | Chestal | JeffM2501: on the server using -a 45 38, noone has noticed the difference AFAIK |
| 17:09.53 | Chestal | (of peopel who didn't know) |
| 17:09.54 | JeffM2501 | sounds fair enough |
| 17:10.00 | JeffM2501 | I didn't realise the time change was so small |
| 17:10.05 | DTRemenak | Chestal: what is your _tankSpeed? |
| 17:10.07 | JeffM2501 | tell the complainers to set -a 0 0 |
| 17:10.12 | Chestal | DTRemenak: all default |
| 17:10.13 | JeffM2501 | and just doc it |
| 17:10.24 | DTRemenak | heh, anyone know what default tankSpeed is? |
| 17:10.28 | Tupone | 25 |
| 17:10.29 | trepan | JeffM2501: it's client-side as well |
| 17:10.29 | JeffM2501 | I though you all were talking about stuff in seconds |
| 17:10.38 | Chestal | DTRemenak: 45,38 are 1/40s I think to change linear/angular speed |
| 17:10.49 | JeffM2501 | trepan, again tell them to set it :) |
| 17:10.53 | JeffM2501 | it is settable right? |
| 17:10.58 | Chestal | defautl tank speed: 25 forward, -12.5 backward |
| 17:11.12 | trepan | JeffM2501: no |
| 17:11.34 | JeffM2501 | so I don't understand what you mean about client side too? |
| 17:11.45 | JeffM2501 | as in there is a client side change with the default? |
| 17:11.51 | Tupone | DTRemenak changes are client side too |
| 17:12.02 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: current code does not use -a, becuase that screws up servers with unusual tankSpeed |
| 17:12.03 | JeffM2501 | how will they work if an old client connects? |
| 17:12.06 | Tupone | menotume, and _Manu_ were server side only |
| 17:12.33 | DTRemenak | the capping is done independently on the client end, and checked and capped on the server end if necessary |
| 17:12.48 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 17:12.55 | JeffM2501 | so now your caping on both? |
| 17:12.58 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 17:12.58 | JeffM2501 | any reason to do both? |
| 17:13.13 | DTRemenak | server only can't actually do anything about it except drop packets |
| 17:13.16 | JeffM2501 | and what happens if an old client connects? |
| 17:13.33 | DTRemenak | old clients with ME would get dropped packets with a warning message |
| 17:13.41 | DTRemenak | normal old clients would see no change |
| 17:13.41 | JeffM2501 | hmmm |
| 17:13.43 | Chestal | server check is an additional cheat check |
| 17:13.45 | Tupone | but that worst things |
| 17:13.57 | JeffM2501 | new clients would just not get the warnings |
| 17:14.04 | Tupone | dropping when we need more pcaket |
| 17:14.25 | DTRemenak | new clients would never send accelerations that would trigger the server-side checks |
| 17:14.25 | JeffM2501 | and since we can't tell the client that we clamped his packet, we can't modify it |
| 17:14.35 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, unless they were moded |
| 17:14.43 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: right |
| 17:14.47 | trepan | DTRemenak: don't think you should drop the packets, for now |
| 17:14.59 | DTRemenak | Tupone: the warning message is pretty clear about "you're causing problems for other players, you asshat" |
| 17:15.11 | Tupone | well, kick him then ? |
| 17:15.12 | JeffM2501 | well, it's not too bad then, if people complain about droped packets and the warnings, we tell em to upgrade |
| 17:15.22 | DTRemenak | Tupone: if you want to change it to kick that is ok with me |
| 17:15.39 | Tupone | nope, we will get false hit sometime |
| 17:15.40 | JeffM2501 | I'd kick after like 3 warnings |
| 17:15.48 | JeffM2501 | just to be nice |
| 17:15.50 | orange | make that configurable |
| 17:15.52 | DTRemenak | yeah, or you could add a counter for it |
| 17:15.54 | orange | like endshot credits |
| 17:15.58 | JeffM2501 | he should get 3 warnings like BAM, BAM, BAM |
| 17:16.00 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:16.18 | JeffM2501 | and if a server set -a 0 0 they would not care about old clients at all right? |
| 17:16.22 | DTRemenak | oh, that reminds me. I think the endshot counter should decay over time. |
| 17:16.29 | Tupone | I am all for limiting acceleration, we should to reduce to acceptable limit the x,y error |
| 17:16.29 | trepan | by dropping packets, the DR can be lagged heavily, giving the ME player an advantage |
| 17:16.30 | orange | DTRemenak: me too |
| 17:16.46 | DTRemenak | people with the cheat get kicked within seconds of enabling it |
| 17:16.51 | JeffM2501 | trepan, we have that problem with all our packet drop deals |
| 17:16.55 | DTRemenak | people without get kicked after playing for hours |
| 17:16.55 | Chestal | hmm, so 2.0.2 clients cannot play on 2.0.4 servers then? |
| 17:17.03 | JeffM2501 | we need to stop droping packets and just FIX them, but that's proto |
| 17:17.10 | Chestal | (without -a) |
| 17:17.17 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, if they had mouse enhancments, they would get a warning |
| 17:17.17 | orange | Chestal: not with ME |
| 17:17.18 | DTRemenak | Chestal: 2.0.2 clients not using ME can play on 2.0.4 |
| 17:17.18 | trepan | JeffM2501: no need to make it worst, especially when packet continuity is generally pretty good |
| 17:17.34 | JeffM2501 | trepan, true |
| 17:17.40 | Chestal | I don't liek this |
| 17:17.52 | Chestal | I don't trust any server side cheat check we have right now anyway, well, except for some of them |
| 17:18.01 | orange | hehe |
| 17:18.06 | JeffM2501 | now to play devils advocate, if you are just talking about a change of 0.05 secs, how is anyoine going to noice anyone who is using a 0 accell time? |
| 17:18.07 | Chestal | let me compile curernt version, sadly, computer is slow |
| 17:18.22 | JeffM2501 | 0.05 is REaLY close to instant |
| 17:18.27 | orange | Chestal: anyone using ME is smart enough to know how to upgrade, don't you think? |
| 17:18.30 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: according to tupone, it causes problems with DR |
| 17:18.40 | DTRemenak | I have not done tests for that |
| 17:18.47 | Chestal | orange: I am not sure it only affects 'ME' players, it's an unsharp term anyway |
| 17:18.49 | JeffM2501 | and 0.05sec makes DR all peachy |
| 17:18.56 | Tupone | I did just 0.5*acc*T**2 |
| 17:18.58 | JeffM2501 | cus droping packets screws with DR too |
| 17:19.03 | JeffM2501 | so your DR is STILL screwed |
| 17:19.04 | Tupone | minimum T is 1/30 |
| 17:19.16 | JeffM2501 | since both solutiaons have DR problems |
| 17:19.17 | Tupone | tolerated position error is 0.09 |
| 17:19.28 | JeffM2501 | we can divide by DR problems, and say it's a wash |
| 17:19.31 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: that's why Tupone was proposing kicking them instead of dropping packets |
| 17:19.38 | JeffM2501 | that is harsh |
| 17:19.52 | trepan | yup, don't kick them, have the ops use -a |
| 17:20.03 | Tupone | false hit . I think we will surely hit |
| 17:20.07 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, then you are geting into chestals thing, 2.0.2 becomes somewhat incompatable with 2.0.4 |
| 17:20.12 | Chestal | it's probably faster if Idrive hoem and compile it there :-) |
| 17:20.13 | Tupone | My propose is limiting acceleration :/ |
| 17:20.14 | JeffM2501 | and we know that is a "badd thing" |
| 17:20.28 | JeffM2501 | we can't punish users |
| 17:20.34 | JeffM2501 | ever |
| 17:20.40 | Chestal | I'll do some tests later, anyone around to discuss results and join the testing? |
| 17:20.42 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: so we can punish cheaters but not people who exploit bugs? :) |
| 17:20.44 | Tupone | to value that are appropriate to DR accepted errors |
| 17:20.56 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, they don't know they are expliting a bug |
| 17:21.00 | JeffM2501 | to them it may be a valid feature |
| 17:21.05 | DTRemenak | it says quite clearly in the message to turn down your mouse settings or upgrade |
| 17:21.05 | JeffM2501 | cheaters know they are cheating |
| 17:21.08 | DTRemenak | either of those things will fix it |
| 17:21.37 | JeffM2501 | we have never required an upgreade for a bug fix |
| 17:21.40 | trepan | a note on /kicking, i've already gotten false hits from the check... |
| 17:21.46 | JeffM2501 | why not just bump proto and call it 2.2 ? |
| 17:21.51 | JeffM2501 | that fixes all problems |
| 17:21.54 | Chestal | keybaord steering used max acc now I think? Wasn't that instantenious years ago? |
| 17:21.56 | JeffM2501 | we don't HAVE to do 2.0.4 |
| 17:22.10 | JeffM2501 | woudln't that fix the "spin" thing in the maps too? |
| 17:22.13 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: if we bump proto then we should do a bunch more proto-breaking stuff at the same time. that would take months |
| 17:22.21 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, why? |
| 17:22.25 | Tupone | keyboard steering use the inertia value if any |
| 17:22.28 | JeffM2501 | nothing says we can't bump proto just for this |
| 17:22.38 | JeffM2501 | then bust out a 2.2 |
| 17:22.43 | JeffM2501 | then in a couple months do a 2.4 |
| 17:22.55 | JeffM2501 | rapid updates is a "good thing" :) |
| 17:22.55 | Tupone | why? there is no need for a protocol change |
| 17:22.55 | Chestal | Tupone: I think it has additional dampening |
| 17:23.00 | DTRemenak | couple months between proto changes? you're complaining about harsh!?! |
| 17:23.04 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, just to force peole to upgrade |
| 17:23.06 | Chestal | Tupone: otherwise, it would be much 'worse' then ME |
| 17:23.10 | JeffM2501 | prot is MORE then just the format |
| 17:23.13 | JeffM2501 | it's the "GAME" |
| 17:23.30 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, it may be harsh, but it's a harshness people have dealth with |
| 17:23.53 | Tupone | game for the non ME guys does not changes. And this fix error we have with this exploit |
| 17:24.01 | JeffM2501 | if you are are basicly saying everyone needs to get to 2.0.4 or there will be some problems, then that is a manditory upgrade |
| 17:24.17 | Tupone | I'm saying server need to update |
| 17:24.18 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, you call it an exploit, what do users see it as? |
| 17:24.30 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, you are also saying kick the bastards |
| 17:24.40 | DTRemenak | no no no. maybe 5% of people get a message saying they will need to upgrade |
| 17:24.43 | JeffM2501 | that implys a manditory upgrade for those users |
| 17:24.45 | Tupone | nope, I was just saying we cannot drop packet |
| 17:24.52 | DTRemenak | that's not nearly "everyone" |
| 17:24.57 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, based on what they have a mouse set to, that seems rather arbitrary |
| 17:25.14 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, I agree, droping cuases many problems |
| 17:25.18 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: if that setting is what causes the problem, I don't see that as arbitrary at all |
| 17:25.18 | Tupone | the problem will raise. My solution is to limit the acceleration with change that are already interpreted by client |
| 17:25.32 | Tupone | with 2.0.2 |
| 17:25.42 | orange | people are quite aware that using ME may be exploiting limitations in the code |
| 17:25.49 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, it's arbirary in the fact that the end user is going to wonder why his mouse setting gets him kicked, when our app shoudl just fix it |
| 17:26.10 | JeffM2501 | if there will be compatability issues, then our past responce has been to bump proto |
| 17:26.24 | Chestal | I begin to like the simple change of default with -a more than the current code |
| 17:26.26 | JeffM2501 | since proto is the only way we have to prevent version incompatabilitys |
| 17:26.37 | Chestal | what was the problem with the -a defautl change? COncerns about high tank speed servers? |
| 17:26.45 | DTRemenak | -a defaults are not a satisfactory solution with non-default tank speeds |
| 17:26.59 | Chestal | that only affects very few servers, though |
| 17:27.04 | orange | how about warnings to servers who start with high tank speed settings |
| 17:27.08 | DTRemenak | heh. more than you think. |
| 17:27.17 | Tupone | the -a default already gives DR error about 6 time the maximum |
| 17:27.18 | JeffM2501 | it dosnt' sound like there is a satisfacotry, default method that can work on all old compatable clients |
| 17:27.21 | DTRemenak | orange: tank speed settings are not done until vars |
| 17:27.23 | trepan | what's the prob with non-standard tank speeds? |
| 17:27.32 | brlcad | so have the -a default back to 0 if tankSpeed is non-default |
| 17:27.50 | DTRemenak | trepan: the -a cap method is a fixed cap independent of tank speed |
| 17:28.01 | trepan | but the user can change the value, no? |
| 17:28.07 | DTRemenak | so high tank speed generates a higher acceleration, which runs into the cap |
| 17:28.10 | Chestal | tepan: the -a settings are absolute, so swith higher tank speeds, it takes peopel longer to get to max speed |
| 17:28.26 | trepan | so it's an arithmetic prob? |
| 17:28.34 | Tupone | DTRemenak: that produce a bigger error in position. I don't like |
| 17:28.37 | DTRemenak | and here we go forcing a bunch of server owners to change their configs again... |
| 17:28.54 | JeffM2501 | it's ether that or forcing a number of players to upgrade |
| 17:29.00 | orange | -a only limits things on the server side? |
| 17:29.02 | JeffM2501 | probably about the same number of people |
| 17:29.07 | trepan | i say revert, put in a warning if -a isn't used, call it a day |
| 17:29.09 | JeffM2501 | and server owners are generaly smarter :) |
| 17:29.16 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: they can always choose to change their mouse settings instead of upgrading |
| 17:29.20 | JeffM2501 | yeah we've lived with it for a year or so |
| 17:29.35 | Chestal | orange: -a is a setting that is sent to the client when he joins the server, client then uses this to limit acc |
| 17:29.36 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, it's still a change |
| 17:29.36 | DTRemenak | trepan: works for me. doubt tupone will like it though |
| 17:29.42 | orange | Chestal: ok |
| 17:29.49 | JeffM2501 | I say it's similar to a server owner doing a config change |
| 17:29.59 | Tupone | DTRemenak: you're right |
| 17:30.04 | trepan | Tupone: what do you want? |
| 17:30.13 | JeffM2501 | and making them change OS settings just for our game is kinda lame, what if they want those settings for other things |
| 17:30.37 | JeffM2501 | we can't fix all the problems in one shot Tupone |
| 17:30.44 | JeffM2501 | I agree with trepan as well |
| 17:30.47 | Tupone | 1st choice: a max value for acceleration in new server. 2nd: a working default value |
| 17:30.53 | Chestal | JeffM2501: I am pretty sure some people change mouse settings just for bz and change them back later |
| 17:31.01 | orange | hmmm |
| 17:31.03 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, I am sure some do |
| 17:31.08 | JeffM2501 | but I am also just as sure some don't |
| 17:31.10 | orange | what if you limited what _tankSpeed could be set to based on the values set with -a |
| 17:31.13 | orange | put a cap on it |
| 17:31.26 | orange | then when people run into that cap they'd know they need to change -a |
| 17:31.27 | Tupone | orange: error does not depend on max speed |
| 17:31.34 | brlcad | or dynamically modify the -a value when tankSpeed is modified |
| 17:31.35 | JeffM2501 | "what if" soltuions never work well right before a release |
| 17:31.42 | DTRemenak | orange: if we could limit bzdb vars then we could prevent positive gravity also :) |
| 17:31.44 | Chestal | this ia all becoming too messy IMHO |
| 17:31.47 | JeffM2501 | the warning to set it is the best for now I think |
| 17:31.49 | JeffM2501 | eactly |
| 17:31.51 | JeffM2501 | it's messy |
| 17:31.58 | Chestal | anyway, a new version does not mean that server owners will upgrade right away |
| 17:32.00 | JeffM2501 | it's cludgy and any real change is gonna bite us in the ass later |
| 17:32.02 | Chestal | it will be _months_ |
| 17:32.07 | DTRemenak | brlcad: if there was a way to do that with current protocol, that would be ideal |
| 17:32.10 | DTRemenak | but there isn't |
| 17:32.13 | Chestal | and for the sevrer owners who care: they can set -a already |
| 17:32.17 | brlcad | DTRemenak: ah |
| 17:32.23 | orange | being able to limit bzdb vars to sane values would be a nice thing later, actually |
| 17:32.34 | brlcad | propagation of the new -a value to the clients I presume |
| 17:32.38 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 17:32.40 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, that's what I said, but they said there is no way to change it |
| 17:32.41 | Chestal | I think it's best to maybe emit a warning and discuss the issue with server owners |
| 17:32.41 | DTRemenak | it's part of the world |
| 17:32.45 | brlcad | got it |
| 17:32.54 | brlcad | that sucks |
| 17:32.58 | orange | regardless of the end solution, limiting _tankSpeed based on -a would eventually be a good thing to have, wouldn't it? |
| 17:33.06 | DTRemenak | when proto breaks I bet one of the first things will be that moving to bzdb. then it is no longer a problem. |
| 17:33.09 | JeffM2501 | yeah being able to resend world updates would be so nice for so many things |
| 17:33.12 | Tupone | the less intrusive, for me, is the default change. It works good for me even with high tank speed server |
| 17:33.53 | JeffM2501 | lets vote on it, all in favor of just pumping a warning. |
| 17:34.04 | Chestal | orange: hmm, why? -a was originally designed to have really noticable inertia in the game |
| 17:34.17 | Chestal | it;s fun to play with strong -a values :-) |
| 17:34.26 | orange | isn't there another bzdb setting that does that now? |
| 17:34.39 | JeffM2501 | Tupone, you are the one saying we need to get 2.0.4 our, adding this now is going to amke us have to test a LOT more |
| 17:34.41 | jpa- | define max/min for bzdb vars and make them 0...100% ;) |
| 17:34.43 | orange | perhaps that's only for wings |
| 17:34.44 | Chestal | there is something similar I think, but I am not sure what exactly it does |
| 17:34.52 | Tupone | I don't vote for a warning, My vote is for putting back 50,38 |
| 17:34.53 | Chestal | I remember playing on an 'ice' map |
| 17:34.57 | trepan | changing -a to use a maxTime style (a la phydrv slide) might also help |
| 17:35.22 | Chestal | -a must be changed in a future version |
| 17:35.23 | Tupone | JeffM2501: I pushed release to have that change |
| 17:35.27 | Chestal | its units are silly |
| 17:35.46 | JeffM2501 | you pushed release to have debian working |
| 17:35.54 | trepan | Chestal: hehe, yup, that x20 is just funny |
| 17:35.55 | Tupone | that is Tim :) |
| 17:35.59 | Chestal | Tupone: telling server owners to use -a will be faster than gettign them to upgrade to 2.0.4 maybe |
| 17:36.11 | Chestal | Debian is important |
| 17:36.16 | JeffM2501 | yes it is |
| 17:36.17 | Chestal | the current Debian situation really sucks |
| 17:36.23 | JeffM2501 | more important then a 0.05 second change |
| 17:36.24 | DTRemenak | so revert and release? :) |
| 17:36.34 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, I want a RC2 |
| 17:36.37 | JeffM2501 | and release on sunday |
| 17:36.39 | Tupone | most of it, nope. Some of it, yes. Try to change gamesunited.de. He wont, even with 2.0.4 :( |
| 17:36.42 | DTRemenak | aww, ok |
| 17:36.48 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, we had a couple changes |
| 17:36.51 | JeffM2501 | mostly an API change |
| 17:37.02 | DTRemenak | huh, there was an API change? |
| 17:37.04 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:37.10 | JeffM2501 | small one |
| 17:37.12 | DTRemenak | weird. didn't break anything for me. |
| 17:37.18 | JeffM2501 | was only in one message |
| 17:37.23 | DTRemenak | ah |
| 17:37.38 | orange | is it possible to keep multiple versions of the API active? |
| 17:37.41 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, what became of the format thing? |
| 17:37.42 | orange | (just curious) |
| 17:37.47 | JeffM2501 | orange, not easaly |
| 17:37.52 | Chestal | Tupone: if I feel motivated, I'd liek to do some tests later, must eat and think, first, though |
| 17:38.04 | Tupone | ok |
| 17:38.23 | orange | not without it being hackish, I guess |
| 17:38.43 | brlcad | JeffM2501: what format thing? |
| 17:38.52 | Tupone | Chestal: I'll do now. Eat, that is |
| 17:38.54 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, blast007's problem |
| 17:39.05 | brlcad | oh, it was a bug |
| 17:39.07 | JeffM2501 | orange, there isn't any reason |
| 17:39.13 | brlcad | you can't give sprintf a va_list |
| 17:39.15 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, and it's fixed now? |
| 17:39.19 | brlcad | thats vsprintf |
| 17:39.24 | orange | JeffM2501: except people's plugins keep getting broken :-) |
| 17:39.32 | orange | but it isn't worth the effort, I agree |
| 17:39.41 | brlcad | JeffM2501: blast007 said that it fixed the problem for him |
| 17:39.51 | JeffM2501 | orange, all they have to do is rebuild |
| 17:40.02 | JeffM2501 | like the proto, the API will only change when under development |
| 17:40.03 | blast007 | JeffM2501: is the value of 'time' in the bz_ChatEventData object supposed to represent seconds since the unix epoch? |
| 17:40.21 | JeffM2501 | blast007, depends on your OS |
| 17:40.21 | blast007 | JeffM2501: Please remove the stupid, and try your call again. |
| 17:40.22 | blast007 | cuz right now it's giving me the seconds since the server was started |
| 17:40.24 | JeffM2501 | it's just the time |
| 17:40.33 | JeffM2501 | it's only comparable to the time in other messages |
| 17:40.42 | JeffM2501 | blast007, your on windows right? |
| 17:40.42 | blast007 | JeffM2501: Could you rephrase that? |
| 17:40.47 | blast007 | er |
| 17:40.56 | JeffM2501 | it is the "server" time |
| 17:40.59 | blast007 | stupid bot code... |
| 17:41.01 | JeffM2501 | it is not a real world time |
| 17:41.02 | blast007 | 1 sec |
| 17:41.18 | JeffM2501 | it can only be compared to the "time" from other messages |
| 17:41.24 | JeffM2501 | on windows it's time since app start |
| 17:41.28 | JeffM2501 | on unix it's epoch |
| 17:41.39 | JeffM2501 | that is why there is a getTime fuction |
| 17:41.42 | JeffM2501 | to get the real world times |
| 17:41.56 | blast007 | ok, just wondering if it was supposed to work this way |
| 17:42.07 | JeffM2501 | it's not meant to be saved between sessions |
| 17:42.12 | JeffM2501 | it's only for comparison |
| 17:42.16 | blast007 | yeah |
| 17:42.28 | JeffM2501 | like if you subtract 2 of them, it'll be how long between messages |
| 17:42.28 | blast007 | I was just wanting to write chat to a MySQL database through a plugin |
| 17:42.29 | DTRemenak | blast007: times are only useful as deltas anyway |
| 17:42.40 | JeffM2501 | yeah it's a delta thing |
| 17:42.47 | JeffM2501 | if you want the server time |
| 17:42.51 | JeffM2501 | the time used for like the sky |
| 17:42.55 | JeffM2501 | then call the time function |
| 17:43.21 | JeffM2501 | it takes a time structure |
| 17:43.31 | JeffM2501 | that will have year, month, day, etc... |
| 17:43.36 | blast007 | k |
| 17:45.06 | JeffM2501 | orange, the "windows" way of maintaining multiple intefaces would be to do a C++ com thing, were you busted out an interface for each version |
| 17:45.12 | JeffM2501 | that's overkill for us |
| 17:45.16 | DTRemenak | ewwww COM |
| 17:45.20 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:45.24 | JeffM2501 | and there is the ewww factor |
| 17:45.39 | JeffM2501 | the API is brand spakin new, so we change it a lot as we dial it in |
| 17:46.11 | JeffM2501 | now as it stablises and we stop changing existing fucntions and structures we'll stop bumping the API version and "breaking" plugins |
| 17:46.30 | JeffM2501 | we can add new functions with out bumping version, and still loading old plugins |
| 17:46.39 | JeffM2501 | it's only when we change an existing thing that we have to bump |
| 17:46.53 | JeffM2501 | and the problem is we are still learning how people use the thing, and finding bugs |
| 17:47.35 | JeffM2501 | I expect it to go just like protocoll, major bumps in a version during active dev, and steady version in releases |
| 17:47.49 | JeffM2501 | I expect to see plugin versions for every major release tho |
| 17:48.14 | JeffM2501 | 2.2 will most likely have a new api version as we change things around. |
| 17:48.44 | JeffM2501 | and the point of making them rebuild would be to force the plugin devs to use the new methods. |
| 17:48.58 | JeffM2501 | that is one reason why the python plugin would be soo cool |
| 17:49.22 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, I say bust out a RC2 right now, if we have decided on the accell thing |
| 17:49.52 | DTRemenak | I am still unsure what consensus on that |
| 17:50.07 | JeffM2501 | I think all but tupone are fine with a revert and warning |
| 17:50.18 | DTRemenak | it's really something that the maintainer should decide if there is no consensus...but that is unlikely to happen |
| 17:50.26 | Tupone | I'm fine to a revert to a 50,48 version |
| 17:50.36 | Tupone | 50,38 :) |
| 17:50.39 | DTRemenak | I'm not fine with that :) |
| 17:50.41 | JeffM2501 | that is the one that got the first complaints |
| 17:50.48 | JeffM2501 | techincaly we majority him |
| 17:50.53 | JeffM2501 | go to 0 |
| 17:51.01 | JeffM2501 | lets just get the thing out the freaking door |
| 17:51.07 | DTRemenak | On Error Goto 0? |
| 17:51.14 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 17:51.17 | JeffM2501 | go to 10 |
| 17:51.17 | Tupone | DTRemenak: the error in DR is not dependent on tank speed |
| 17:51.24 | JeffM2501 | print "party" |
| 17:51.53 | Tupone | if that is your concern |
| 17:52.06 | JeffM2501 | make a post on bzbb that tells servers to set -a too |
| 17:52.12 | DTRemenak | Tupone: -a affects high tank speed. it changes gameplay. |
| 17:52.28 | JeffM2501 | and tell them that next major will start to institue forced acceleration limiting in client and server |
| 17:52.57 | Tupone | for having high speed server, with limited error, with the acceleration you want, you need to increase number of message x sec (that is actually 30) |
| 17:53.37 | DTRemenak | Tupone: I have had no problems on a server set to 150 tankspeed |
| 17:53.45 | DTRemenak | with unlimited acceleration |
| 17:53.47 | Tupone | and people who see you ? |
| 17:54.02 | Tupone | perhaps nobody ? |
| 17:54.07 | DTRemenak | Tupone: I see other people on that server just fine |
| 17:54.21 | DTRemenak | and can kill them. and they kill me. |
| 17:54.22 | Tupone | while accelerating? what frame rate? |
| 17:54.33 | DTRemenak | my framerate is about 40 |
| 17:54.41 | Tupone | and they where accelerating ? |
| 17:54.59 | DTRemenak | considering that they're playing, I would say it's likely that they accelerate |
| 17:55.33 | DTRemenak | you don't get it, I think. I have a server set at 150 tankspeed *permanently*. people *play* there. |
| 17:55.52 | Tupone | and what happen if we limit to 50 ? |
| 17:55.54 | DTRemenak | and I get no reports of problems |
| 17:56.11 | DTRemenak | if you clamp acceleration to 50 then it's very noticable |
| 17:56.27 | Tupone | have you tested ? |
| 17:56.34 | Tupone | I guess so |
| 17:56.42 | DTRemenak | I didn't update cvs during that week, but yesterday I tried with it, and it is quite obvious |
| 17:56.58 | JeffM2501 | we can make the a scale with max speed and give it some real units in the next major |
| 17:57.45 | Tupone | the DR error in indipendent from the speed, so you mean DR error setting is low enough that we can increase it |
| 17:58.06 | DTRemenak | Tupone: if that is the case, then it seems to be |
| 17:58.07 | JeffM2501 | we can change what ever we WANT in the next major |
| 17:58.24 | DTRemenak | I have not done any work on DR. I do not know or care to know how it works. |
| 17:58.43 | JeffM2501 | I say we redo all of DR for next major :) |
| 17:59.09 | Tupone | I was pressed from many player to see this problem addressed from month. You are just saying that we can wait |
| 17:59.19 | Tupone | months I meant |
| 17:59.32 | JeffM2501 | yes, since one way to address it is to have the server set -a |
| 17:59.44 | JeffM2501 | we have people complaining about stuff all the time |
| 17:59.50 | JeffM2501 | some of them just have to wait |
| 18:00.02 | JeffM2501 | there is no perfect solution |
| 18:00.12 | JeffM2501 | that we can do and be clean and happy with 2.0.x |
| 18:00.20 | DTRemenak | Tupone: I have not done any testing of the problem. this is not an area of the code that I like to work in. I wrote the thing yesterday as a compromise, to see if it would satisfy both you and everyone who thought your changes sucked. |
| 18:00.22 | JeffM2501 | the only clean solution is to change things |
| 18:00.36 | Tupone | I'm not happy with 2.0.4 without that clamping :( |
| 18:01.04 | JeffM2501 | I am not happy with 2.0.4 with your clamping method |
| 18:01.09 | DTRemenak | someone is going to be unhappy then. either you or me or Jeff or someone else. |
| 18:01.26 | JeffM2501 | and it sounds like if we revert to 0, the only unhappy person is you, the rest of us are ok |
| 18:01.39 | JeffM2501 | I don't see a solution that makes us all happy |
| 18:01.40 | DTRemenak | clearly my attempt at compromise did not work, because people object to my code too. |
| 18:02.38 | Tupone | the compromise was the code menotume and _Manu_ wrote. Default changes, with server owner that can change values risking themelves |
| 18:02.53 | JeffM2501 | there were complaints about those |
| 18:02.57 | Tupone | who? |
| 18:03.02 | JeffM2501 | I reverted them due to pimpi's request |
| 18:03.06 | Tupone | DTRemenak, was the only one |
| 18:03.10 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 18:03.17 | JeffM2501 | dtr wasn't even here when I made my change |
| 18:03.27 | DTRemenak | defaulting -a is not acceptable. I do not like it, brlcad does not like it, server owners do not like it. JeffM2501 reverted it while I was out of town, so clearly someone else did not like it. |
| 18:03.30 | Tupone | Looking at the log, does not seem. I re look at those |
| 18:03.49 | JeffM2501 | I belive it was on a higher speed server |
| 18:03.53 | JeffM2501 | the defaults just did not work for them |
| 18:04.17 | JeffM2501 | and the question of why set a default that changes things in a bug fix version game up |
| 18:04.54 | JeffM2501 | so, DTRemenak you gonna revert and make a RC2? |
| 18:05.00 | JeffM2501 | we just have to get this thing out |
| 18:05.20 | JeffM2501 | if this was such a huge deal it should have been addressed at the start of 2.0.3 |
| 18:06.43 | *** part/#bzflag ToughShooter (n=ts@p54B00C3E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:07.39 | JeffM2501 | now I totaly understand why we maintain 2 branches here at work |
| 18:07.57 | DTRemenak | yes, we should have branched 2.1 long ago imho |
| 18:08.08 | JeffM2501 | so that problems like this can be put right into the "dev" code, and keep a decently clean "release" secion |
| 18:08.22 | JeffM2501 | so bug fixes have to be done 2x, it's part of the deal |
| 18:08.59 | DTRemenak | the 1.10/1.11 branches worked very smoothly |
| 18:10.35 | JeffM2501 | they did |
| 18:10.55 | JeffM2501 | I guess we just had lack of maintannce this time |
| 18:11.32 | DTRemenak | 1.10 was not branched until after 1.10.4 |
| 18:11.56 | DTRemenak | I think people wanted to do the same this time, but 2.0.4 got stretched out a lot |
| 18:12.57 | *** join/#bzflag kahcepb[RU] (n=den@62.117.95.92) |
| 18:13.31 | JeffM2501 | a bit I'd say |
| 18:14.10 | Tupone | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5211 |
| 18:14.26 | Tupone | It has a dell logitech mouse and i use the correct logitech mouse driver for it, where i have set acceleration and and speed to the maximum. |
| 18:15.55 | Tupone | I guess some of you have to answer him correctly |
| 18:17.30 | *** join/#bzflag sc-phone (n=sc@129.sub-70-199-91.myvzw.com) |
| 18:18.16 | sc-phone | ~SILVERCAT |
| 18:19.02 | sc-phone | ~bzflist |
| 18:19.54 | menotume | Tupone: Those who don't play regularly against these players aren't really familiar with the problem :) |
| 18:20.11 | kahcepb[RU] | ./quit |
| 18:20.16 | JeffM2501 | as a rebutal Tupone, http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=51715#51715 |
| 18:20.22 | JeffM2501 | I guess somone will have to answer him correctly |
| 18:21.46 | DTRemenak | do we want the warning to be printf'ed or DEBUG1'ed? |
| 18:22.01 | JeffM2501 | I say printf it |
| 18:23.07 | Tupone | menotume: I know we do not loose anything on gu.de, that gsl does not update anything even when 2.2.0 goes out :) |
| 18:23.33 | menotume | ahh, i can get him to update - he wants the -advertise option :) |
| 18:24.14 | *** join/#bzflag sc-phone (n=sc@129.sub-70-199-91.myvzw.com) |
| 18:25.35 | sc-phone | hi all. got a bzadmin question. I am trying to connect to a server and get a message that says "wrong code 6d67". help! |
| 18:25.41 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/ (bzflag/LocalPlayer.cxx bzfs/CmdLineOptions.cxx bzfs/bzfs.cxx): |
| 18:25.41 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: revert limits on extreme acceleration by developer consensus. |
| 18:25.41 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: add a warning for servers which do not set -a, including a reasonable value for normal-speed servers. |
| 18:26.14 | DTRemenak | sc-phone: upgrade your bzadmin |
| 18:26.32 | menotume | that warning is cool :) |
| 18:26.41 | menotume | thx for that |
| 18:27.02 | _Manu_ | :) |
| 18:27.02 | sc-phone | dtr: I can't - it is the version installed on sp server |
| 18:27.22 | sc-phone | I just ssh in |
| 18:27.32 | DTRemenak | sc-phone: ah. are you trying to connect to sp with it? |
| 18:27.32 | sc-phone | :( |
| 18:27.37 | sc-phone | no |
| 18:27.43 | sc-phone | silvercat |
| 18:28.24 | sc-phone | I guess the versions are incompatible |
| 18:29.00 | DTRemenak | yeah. bzadmin did much more strict message checking than bzflag does, so the auth changes in 2.0.3 broke it. |
| 18:29.16 | sc-phone | dtremenak: ok, ty for the help |
| 18:29.52 | sc-phone | ~dtremenak++ |
| 18:31.09 | bryjen | hm, stdout is line-buffered... |
| 18:32.05 | RatOmeter | you need it otherwise? |
| 18:32.16 | bryjen | no. |
| 18:33.37 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03bryjen * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/CmdLineOptions.cxx: missing final newline |
| 18:33.43 | *** join/#bzflag IDiedOnce (n=cdae161b@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 18:33.55 | bryjen | for the last chapter of DTRemenak's novel |
| 18:34.02 | bryjen | ;) |
| 18:34.03 | DTRemenak | heh :) |
| 18:34.21 | IDiedOnce | I want an autographed copy of DTR's novel |
| 18:34.36 | RatOmeter | Me too, can he autograph a PDF? |
| 18:35.00 | IDiedOnce | we can super-impose his signature on the second page... |
| 18:35.20 | IDiedOnce | whats the title of this book? |
| 18:35.25 | RatOmeter | an auto-mark |
| 18:36.07 | RatOmeter | [autograph/watermark] |
| 18:36.41 | IDiedOnce | woot |
| 18:42.10 | bryjen | hmm |
| 18:42.43 | bryjen | I'm getting the warning if i do bzfs -a 50 38 -world somefile.bzw |
| 18:43.19 | IDiedOnce | I never understood the -a option too well |
| 18:44.35 | IDiedOnce | which warning ar you talking about? |
| 18:44.59 | bryjen | the one DTRemenak just added |
| 18:45.29 | DTRemenak | bryjen: did you expect me to actually test that? :) |
| 18:45.46 | bryjen | no, that's why I'm testing it ;P |
| 18:45.52 | trepan | bryjen: parse() gets called from -conf, and world "options" |
| 18:46.20 | IDiedOnce | about moving too fast and updating your client? |
| 18:47.14 | bryjen | i'm not using -conf, and i don't think my world file has an options block |
| 18:47.21 | blast007 | IDiedOnce: no, about not setting a value for -a on bzfs |
| 18:47.58 | IDiedOnce | ah, at Planet MoFo, I have it set to -a 50 50 |
| 18:48.24 | trepan | bryjen: gets called whether there's an "options" block or not, iirc |
| 18:49.10 | *** join/#bzflag |zongo| (n=zongo@lsn-boi-catv-c121-p119.vtx.ch) |
| 18:49.46 | bryjen | ah, the LimitSet flag shouldn't be local to an invocation of parse() |
| 18:50.10 | DTRemenak | bryjen: yeah, and it needs to be aware of nesting too. I've fixed it. |
| 18:51.12 | DTRemenak | oops |
| 18:51.16 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/CmdLineOptions.cxx: parse can call itself recursively. only issue the -a warning at the very end of parsing. |
| 18:51.33 | bryjen | oops? |
| 18:52.07 | DTRemenak | yeah, now it will never trigger |
| 18:52.13 | DTRemenak | forgot to decrement the counter again |
| 18:53.36 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/CmdLineOptions.cxx: unbreak that. |
| 18:54.36 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/CmdLineOptions.cxx: make that an unconditional decrement so count can be used for something else if need arises. |
| 18:55.09 | bryjen | CmdLineOptions.cxx: In function `void parse(int, char**, CmdLineOptions&, bool)': |
| 18:55.11 | bryjen | CmdLineOptions.cxx:657: warning: declaration of `count' shadows a previous local |
| 18:55.12 | bryjen | CmdLineOptions.cxx:544: warning: shadowed declaration is here |
| 18:55.14 | bryjen | CmdLineOptions.cxx:1062: warning: declaration of `count' shadows a previous local |
| 18:55.15 | bryjen | CmdLineOptions.cxx:544: warning: shadowed declaration is here |
| 18:55.21 | DTRemenak | gah |
| 18:55.28 | bryjen | generic variable naming... |
| 18:55.58 | brlcad | shadow warning |
| 18:56.49 | bryjen | two things named "count" |
| 18:56.52 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/CmdLineOptions.cxx: no shadowing |
| 19:00.14 | Tupone | I know majority win, but I tought we need total consensum :( However, I don't think we have to make a branch till we have resolved problem that left player at 1.10 |
| 19:03.11 | *** join/#bzflag Inferno (n=Inferno@71-10-74-157.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com) |
| 19:03.24 | Inferno | hello |
| 19:03.28 | blast007 | iya |
| 19:03.32 | blast007 | hiya* |
| 19:03.43 | Inferno | blast are you "007"? |
| 19:03.51 | Inferno | what's your bz name? |
| 19:04.03 | blast007 | no, for the second time, I am not "007" :) |
| 19:04.11 | blast007 | I am "blast" in the game |
| 19:04.16 | Inferno | oh, k |
| 19:04.21 | bryjen | its been too long now to make big changes to 2.0.x that may be required to bring those people forward |
| 19:04.33 | Inferno | cause there was a blast 007, I was taching him dos |
| 19:04.49 | blast007 | ? |
| 19:05.06 | trepan | Tupone: what probs? |
| 19:05.26 | Tupone | I don't know, speed maybe? |
| 19:05.31 | Inferno | He had never used CMD before |
| 19:05.32 | Inferno | on windows |
| 19:05.44 | Tupone | or texture too big |
| 19:05.52 | blast007 | sure it wasn't "blast 7"? |
| 19:05.56 | bryjen | maybe in the first days of 2.0.0, if big problems were obvious, a we could have done a brown-paper-bag 2.0.2, and told people not to use 2.0.0 |
| 19:06.28 | Tupone | Personally I can't play more on ATI 8Mbyte, Computer at club |
| 19:06.48 | trepan | use the older smaller textures? |
| 19:06.50 | bryjen | but 2.0.x has worked good enough for many, and they like it and are accustomed to it |
| 19:07.10 | _Manu_ | yes, it's annoying how many resources bzflag needs |
| 19:07.24 | Tupone | I am for a limited client, that understand simplified word, with rendering of the old, and protocol of the new. That broke if the world is not acceptable |
| 19:07.25 | Inferno | blast700, oh it was "007" |
| 19:07.37 | blast007 | bzflag really doesn't use _that_ many resources... |
| 19:07.51 | _Manu_ | blast007, heh |
| 19:08.02 | Tupone | so 2 clients, one full, and one limited |
| 19:08.16 | trepan | Tupone: why? |
| 19:08.31 | Tupone | some people cannot update hardware, like at work |
| 19:08.39 | _Manu_ | blast007, mean perfomances.. ;) |
| 19:08.41 | Tupone | probably they should not play there too :) |
| 19:08.52 | trepan | what is the specific prob? texture size? overly complex maps? |
| 19:09.04 | Tupone | computer crash to me |
| 19:09.08 | bryjen | hehe, the exit message "This BZFlag client is weak and feeble, it cannot play on this server" |
| 19:09.26 | Tupone | but I heard about performance to some friends of mine |
| 19:09.57 | blast007 | I can run the client on here (a 700MHz PIII) in software rendering, and get around 30 FPS on basic maps |
| 19:10.17 | trepan | wishy washy rumours aren't really enough to warrant carrying to clients streams |
| 19:10.19 | _Manu_ | blast007, that is really bad :) |
| 19:10.32 | blast007 | _Manu_: but the point is, it's playable |
| 19:10.36 | trepan | s/to/two |
| 19:10.39 | _Manu_ | blast007, you are giving me the reason.. basic maps.. |
| 19:10.57 | _Manu_ | and not much players.. |
| 19:11.04 | blast007 | so if people are on systems that can't even muster up enough power to run basic maps, they shouldn't play with that computer |
| 19:11.10 | _Manu_ | and 30fps is not a big thing |
| 19:11.22 | _Manu_ | 50 is the min desired |
| 19:11.47 | jpa- | 30fps is enough, if it doesn't drop below that |
| 19:11.52 | _Manu_ | and synced |
| 19:12.04 | blast007 | I get a constant 24FPS on my desktop system on the complex maps, and I have no issues playing |
| 19:12.26 | brlcad | blast007: that plugin code that used bz_format().. i'm not seeing that in plugins/ .. that something new? |
| 19:12.26 | *** join/#bzflag bz8517 (n=52393053@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 19:12.38 | Tupone | I have about 8 FPS on simple maps, at club when I have not a crash |
| 19:12.45 | blast007 | brlcad: I'm writing a new one, and that was just a sample one I made |
| 19:13.14 | trepan | Tupone: have you tried using the older texture set? |
| 19:13.27 | Tupone | I should, but I have not :/ |
| 19:13.32 | trepan | and perhaps the bitmap fonts |
| 19:13.50 | blast007 | if the card is only 8MB, couldn't you just turn off textures? |
| 19:14.04 | bryjen | bzugly |
| 19:14.05 | blast007 | then I turn on lighting so the objects have a little more depth to them |
| 19:14.10 | Tupone | the character drawing become slower, without texture |
| 19:14.14 | _Manu_ | blast007, when you plays at 25, 50 and 100 fps.. then you'll se the diff |
| 19:14.25 | _Manu_ | s/se/see |
| 19:15.01 | brlcad | blast007: but the inline func, where'd that come from? you wrote? |
| 19:15.02 | blast007 | I'm sure I will, but again, the point is being able to play, not playing at 100FPS |
| 19:15.18 | blast007 | brlcad: I copied that from the vocaliser plugin |
| 19:15.31 | blast007 | might be in another plugin too |
| 19:15.46 | jpa- | the doom-mode is nice, texturing nearest, resolution 320x240 |
| 19:16.25 | blast007 | chathistory too |
| 19:17.04 | _Manu_ | blast007, ppl complaints against it, most of jittery players.. are because slow computers.. (under 1 Ghz) and not very powerfull graphics cards |
| 19:17.12 | brlcad | blast007: I don't see that in the vocaliser plugin |
| 19:17.16 | _Manu_ | they complaints.. they can play doom but don't bzflag.. |
| 19:17.21 | blast007 | hmm, let me check if it was |
| 19:17.45 | blast007 | oh, it wasn't inline in those, I guess |
| 19:18.09 | blast007 | std::string format(const char* fmt, ...) { |
| 19:18.32 | _Manu_ | blast007, an example.. the player Muff Potter.. he uses Pentium 650 Mhz.. and nvidia.. he can play.. |
| 19:18.34 | blast007 | line 27 of vocaliser.cpp |
| 19:18.44 | _Manu_ | but frecuently gets jitter.. and almost unkillable |
| 19:19.01 | _Manu_ | he knows his advantage and uses jumps continuosly... |
| 19:19.16 | brlcad | blast007: maybe out of date? |
| 19:19.25 | blast007 | brlcad: let me update quick |
| 19:19.29 | brlcad | or maybe I am... |
| 19:19.30 | trepan | used in vocalizer? ;) |
| 19:20.25 | blast007 | oh, ok |
| 19:20.54 | bryjen | i've got a p3 733 and a radeon 7500. i don't have a jitter problem. |
| 19:21.10 | _Manu_ | may be you are the only one |
| 19:21.20 | _Manu_ | :) |
| 19:21.23 | bryjen | lP |
| 19:21.35 | blast007 | or maybe the other people have 27 toolbars in IE ;) |
| 19:21.49 | _Manu_ | he uses linux ;-P |
| 19:21.50 | *** join/#bzflag YAKarsten (i=karsten@sourcemage/pdpc.sustaining.BearPerson) |
| 19:21.57 | *** join/#bzflag geoffrey (n=geoffrey@host81-152-60-247.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:22.43 | Chestal | Tupone: I have been using bzflag 2.0.x on my office computer until a few months ago. With software rendering |
| 19:23.00 | DTRemenak | blast007: we've all seen them, there's no reason to be ashamed ;) |
| 19:23.04 | Chestal | Tupone: it needs a careful setting of options etc., but that was true for 1.x, too |
| 19:23.06 | blast007 | lol |
| 19:23.08 | _Manu_ | bryjen, and he uses Pentium I iirc.. :) |
| 19:23.22 | blast007 | well, no wonder |
| 19:23.25 | bryjen | 650MHz would be a P3 |
| 19:23.32 | _Manu_ | dunno. |
| 19:23.39 | blast007 | or a very overclocked PI |
| 19:23.42 | Chestal | Tupone: the one non-obvious thing is, that I need to manually activate the stupid bitmap font renderer, that's why I wrote it in the first place :-) |
| 19:23.44 | _Manu_ | he told Pentium.. probably I missunderstood |
| 19:24.04 | Chestal | and back then when 2.0 was new I had the feeling I am the only bz player without a decent 3D card |
| 19:24.08 | *** join/#bzflag wegstar (n=foo@allegro/user/wegstar) |
| 19:24.09 | bryjen | yes. P 1 stopped around 233, P 2 ~ 450, P 3 just over 1GHz |
| 19:24.18 | Tupone | Chestal: what CPU ? |
| 19:24.28 | DTRemenak | really what someone should do is stop by the 1.10 servers and ASK why they still play it |
| 19:24.32 | Chestal | Tupone: dual PIII-500 |
| 19:24.40 | Chestal | with X set to 800x600x8bit |
| 19:24.54 | Chestal | Tupone: you might remember the 8 bit thing :-) |
| 19:24.59 | _Manu_ | ah.. well the resolution is also important. heh |
| 19:25.09 | _Manu_ | and color deep |
| 19:25.21 | bryjen | Chestal has an intel pentium GPU ;) |
| 19:25.21 | Chestal | with the bitmap font rendrer, it's only slightly slower than 1.10 for simple maps |
| 19:25.23 | blast007 | I get better FPS in software on here ;D |
| 19:25.36 | blast007 | and the fonts are readable in s/w mode |
| 19:25.37 | Tupone | at club IIRC, we have PentiumII 500. I have the hardware accelerator, and it worked actually. I could get 40 FPS |
| 19:25.38 | Chestal | with the texture font renderer, it is far too slow |
| 19:25.43 | CIA-3 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * 10bzflag/plugins/ (chathistory/chathistory.cpp vocaliser/vocaliser.cpp): sprintf does not take a va_list (amazing that it even sort of worked for anyone), but vsprintf does |
| 19:26.30 | DTRemenak | Chestal: at some point I'd like to see about writing some autodetection code to figure out whether the bitmap font renderer ought to be used on first startup, so people who need it don't need to set it manually |
| 19:26.38 | Chestal | DTRemenak: did you revert all of yor changes? |
| 19:27.09 | DTRemenak | Chestal: the stuff that affected acceleration clamping? yes |
| 19:27.22 | Chestal | DTRemenak: the bitmap font renderer is crappy, I felt that I was onky writing it for myself, so I could still play. If there really is a need for others, maybe it could be automatically used whenever textures are turned off for example |
| 19:27.53 | DTRemenak | Chestal: sometimes I wonder whether people need it and don't realize it's there |
| 19:28.44 | Chestal | possible. I am palying with opaque console, which helps, too (no need to refresh the text area in every frame) |
| 19:28.45 | DTRemenak | it seems to make a very big difference for a few people (like you). it seems like it should not be hard to detect whether it would make a big difference. |
| 19:28.58 | Tupone | I still think having about 20 player at 1.10 and about 120 at 2.0 is not good for making another incompatible branch |
| 19:29.01 | Chestal | jpa-: probably |
| 19:29.11 | Chestal | in general, bitmap renderer is better for software |
| 19:29.17 | Chestal | it cannot scale the fonts, though |
| 19:29.33 | DTRemenak | also helps very old (pre-radeon) ATI cards a great deal |
| 19:29.36 | Chestal | I am not sure why peopel are still at 1.10 |
| 19:29.40 | Chestal | I don't think it#s the speed |
| 19:30.03 | Chestal | there was a poll on bzbb once, and it was 1 software rdnering guy (me= against 50 hardware rendering or something like it |
| 19:30.07 | DTRemenak | yeah, that's why I suggested we should actually ask the people who are playing |
| 19:31.50 | DTRemenak | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1349&highlight=software+rendering |
| 19:31.55 | Chestal | ask the players? Strange new concept that is :-) |
| 19:32.07 | menotume | http://my.bzflag.org/players110.php |
| 19:32.17 | menotume | a quick hack to show 1.10 players :) |
| 19:34.19 | trepan | MsgQueryClientSysInfo for some stats ;) |
| 19:34.22 | Chestal | time for a full rebuild |
| 19:34.36 | menotume | hmm, c3po still plays 1.10 :) |
| 19:37.51 | Chestal | hmm, my stripped executable with g++4.0 is actually smaller, when I compile/link with -fvisibility-inlines-hidden |
| 19:39.33 | menotume | hmm, 41 players on 2.1 now |
| 19:39.38 | menotume | err, 1.1 |
| 19:40.22 | menotume | including brad2901, c3po ... they should upgrade |
| 19:40.32 | menotume | yes |
| 19:40.49 | menotume | and how many are just trying it out cause they found it on their outdated distor |
| 19:41.05 | brad2901 | I was only on for a few seconds to see who still played 1.10 |
| 19:41.17 | menotume | brad2901: :D |
| 19:41.24 | brad2901 | :) |
| 19:41.49 | Tupone | I have 1.7, 1.8, 1.10, 1.11, 2.0 |
| 19:44.13 | TimRiker | ~bzflist17 |
| 19:44.23 | TimRiker | =) one fake user. |
| 19:44.28 | wegstar | :) |
| 19:44.42 | Tupone | lol :) |
| 19:44.53 | TimRiker | there is one. =) upgrade-your-client-at.bzflag.org:5155 |
| 19:45.01 | bryjen | ~bzflist17 |
| 19:45.09 | bryjen | hrm |
| 19:45.16 | Tupone | perhaps 1.7 is missing here. I lost it along the way |
| 19:46.46 | bryjen | is the 1.7 list fake? or just that entry? |
| 19:47.30 | bryjen | ~bzfquery bryjen.bzflag.org:5155 |
| 19:47.59 | bryjen | wow. suprised that worked |
| 19:49.11 | Chestal | btw., I when do some play testing with my usual bz settings, I get peak accelerations of about 5000m/s^2 |
| 19:49.33 | Chestal | that accounts to < 0.01s for goign from full back to full forward |
| 19:50.15 | Tupone | keyboard? |
| 19:51.02 | Chestal | no, normal mouse |
| 19:51.39 | Tupone | lag then ? |
| 19:51.49 | Tupone | FPS ? |
| 19:52.21 | Chestal | no, no lag. about 400fps |
| 19:52.22 | menotume | Chestal, i found an anomoly when i implmented /accelstats command |
| 19:52.41 | menotume | players would shoul large spikes right after respawning |
| 19:52.48 | menotume | would show |
| 19:53.31 | menotume | in most (if not all cases), players had z coord < 0 |
| 19:54.05 | *** join/#bzflag deprecated (n=deprecat@c-24-18-18-191.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 19:54.20 | Tupone | you are deprecated |
| 19:54.22 | *** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (n=Julio@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 19:55.18 | Chestal | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:55.33 | menotume | what are those numbers? :) |
| 19:55.38 | Chestal | that's a typical sequence of acceleration values when I go from full back to full forward |
| 19:55.41 | Chestal | on enumber per frame |
| 19:55.50 | Chestal | I wasn't even pushign the mouse very fast |
| 19:56.14 | menotume | ummm |
| 19:56.35 | Chestal | a 2000 means it takes me about 0.02 to do the full speed change |
| 19:56.38 | menotume | 2900/20 ... 145? when max is around 50 ? |
| 19:56.42 | menotume | ohh |
| 19:56.49 | Chestal | no, not related to the -a |
| 19:56.53 | menotume | gotya |
| 19:56.57 | Chestal | it's simple (newv - oldv) / dt |
| 19:57.18 | Chestal | let me push real hard now :-) |
| 19:57.32 | Tupone | Chestal: fp approssimation ? |
| 19:57.59 | Tupone | or this are the desired speed ? |
| 19:58.02 | Inferno | chestal, what role do you play in bz creation? |
| 19:58.06 | Chestal | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:58.35 | Chestal | Inferno: I am one of the people who try to improve it, as about a dozen others here |
| 19:58.46 | Inferno | oh |
| 19:59.05 | Chestal | Tupone: one thign confuses me a little right now, it does not seem to quite match with my frame rate |
| 20:02.05 | Chestal | hmm, on the other hand, maybe it matches |
| 20:02.31 | Chestal | 400fps, so 1/400 * (4700 + 6877 + 2634) = 35.5 |
| 20:02.48 | Chestal | I expected 37.5, but my output is also trimming small acc values |
| 20:02.54 | *** join/#bzflag BenUrban (n=benurban@68.50.155.230) |
| 20:03.48 | Chestal | with super-ME settigns you cannot do that much faster, minimum 1 frame |
| 20:04.11 | menotume | don't forget to make you mousebox tiny (<0) :) |
| 20:04.22 | Chestal | however, the time I moved mouse pointer outside of mouse box is not included of course |
| 20:04.26 | menotume | my tests showed ME was around 52 |
| 20:04.35 | menotume | normal was 40-45 |
| 20:05.46 | Chestal | 52 as in -a? |
| 20:06.38 | menotume | yes |
| 20:06.51 | Chestal | well, that above is about 180 in terms of -a |
| 20:06.58 | menotume | i simply divide my linear accel by 20 |
| 20:07.22 | Chestal | and even the slower movement is about 80 |
| 20:07.42 | menotume | i'm rebuilding my accelstats tree, and will post a link to a log snippet |
| 20:08.51 | Chestal | I have to move my mouse by about 1cm to move from lower border of mouse box to upper border |
| 20:12.48 | *** join/#bzflag zongo_ (n=zongo@lsn-boi-catv-c114-p070.vtx.ch) |
| 20:13.54 | Chestal | I can probably do 5 times back->forward->back in 1s |
| 20:14.12 | Chestal | not that would be very useful because tha tan kdoes not move far enough at standard speeds then |
| 20:16.10 | *** join/#bzflag mmu_man (i=revol@ALyon-253-1-13-234.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 20:17.45 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
| 20:17.45 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 20:30.01 | *** join/#bzflag jujibo (n=Julio@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 20:31.55 | Pimpinella | menotume, Tupone: i regulary play against EM players, but i also run a server and i see both sides of the story. i (imho) don't find defaults for -a other than 0 acceptable |
| 20:32.11 | Pimpinella | i agree 100% with DTR in that point |
| 20:32.43 | menotume | Pimpinella: try with lag :) |
| 20:33.08 | Pimpinella | so why just add -a to the server config? |
| 20:33.31 | Tupone | I think that if you run a server and update it to a new version you can fix it .. on special server. There is no magic updating it, unless you run a script that try to update it |
| 20:34.00 | menotume | oh, ic ... yes, defaults are 0 |
| 20:34.13 | menotume | use -a if you want it |
| 20:34.15 | Pimpinella | s/why/why not |
| 20:34.20 | menotume | right :) |
| 20:35.25 | Tupone | limiting acceleration linear and angular |
| 20:35.33 | Pimpinella | ruskie: adding acceleration limits by default |
| 20:35.42 | Tupone | now is like tank has 0 mass |
| 20:35.54 | Tupone | as a default |
| 20:36.23 | JeffM2501 | same as it's been for 13 years |
| 20:36.53 | _Manu_ | JeffM2501, you talk as my grand ;) |
| 20:37.00 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 20:37.19 | _Manu_ | as my grandfather... this have been allways... |
| 20:37.22 | JeffM2501 | I have no problems chaning it to solve the problem, but I'd not do it right before a release, on a minor rev, I'd just wait for 2.2 |
| 20:37.36 | Tupone | the previous 12 years tank had the mass of the mouse :P |
| 20:37.55 | JeffM2501 | it should be checked on client input and on server |
| 20:38.14 | Chestal | Tupone: ball mouses were heavier :-) |
| 20:38.17 | JeffM2501 | and since we can't do both in a solution that makes everyone happy with out changing proto, it should wait till we do change proto |
| 20:38.25 | JeffM2501 | mice have steel balls |
| 20:40.19 | Chestal | some have slanted wheels |
| 20:40.36 | Chestal | like the DEC rats and the honeywell mouse I have been using for many years |
| 20:40.43 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 20:40.48 | JeffM2501 | mine has an LED |
| 20:41.24 | *** join/#bzflag ruskie (n=ruskie@sourcemage/ruskie) |
| 20:42.09 | Chestal | DEC rat: http://www.xs4all.nl/~andreth/images/dec5000mouse.jpg |
| 20:42.19 | Chestal | I actually liked those |
| 20:42.29 | JeffM2501 | looks like a 2 button iPuck |
| 20:42.34 | JeffM2501 | 3 button |
| 20:43.40 | JeffM2501 | ipuck |
| 20:43.40 | JeffM2501 | http://www.allaboutapple.com/museo/pictures/donazioni/imacusb.jpg |
| 20:49.39 | mmu_man | iSwear ? |
| 20:50.17 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 20:50.18 | *** join/#bzflag geoffrey (n=geoffrey@host81-152-60-247.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) |
| 20:50.18 | JeffM2501 | puck |
| 20:50.24 | JeffM2501 | as in hockey |
| 20:50.30 | geoffrey | what a work to hear when i join |
| 20:50.46 | JeffM2501 | puck puck puck |
| 20:50.46 | geoffrey | my first thought is "as in a midsummers night dream" :P |
| 21:11.15 | *** join/#bzflag ruskie (n=ruskie@sourcemage/ruskie) |
| 21:23.47 | *** join/#bzflag |zongo| (n=zongo@lsn-boi-catv-c114-p070.vtx.ch) |
| 21:24.58 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 21:24.58 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 21:31.09 | JeffM2501 | M&Ms taste good, and are usefull |
| 21:31.17 | BenUrban | with a tail |
| 21:31.17 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, so are we RC2ing? |
| 21:31.19 | BenUrban | and a ball |
| 21:31.31 | BenUrban | and detachable candy coating |
| 21:31.50 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: go for it |
| 21:32.07 | JeffM2501 | did you see the thing about the admin channel? |
| 21:32.14 | JeffM2501 | oh you want ME to do it :) |
| 21:32.17 | JeffM2501 | dont' want to reboot? |
| 21:33.39 | Chestal | someone up for a quck test? |
| 21:33.58 | DTRemenak | thing about the admin channel? no...what was it? |
| 21:34.06 | Chestal | then join goliath.home.unix-ag.org:5154 please |
| 21:34.19 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 21:34.19 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 21:37.54 | bryjen | !decks |
| 21:37.55 | TheLastSpartan | http://bzgirl.bzflag.org/decks.html |
| 21:38.19 | bryjen | hrm. host not found :( |
| 21:38.32 | bryjen | TheLastSpartan: forget decks |
| 21:38.33 | TheLastSpartan | bryjen: Tah mah de |
| 21:38.53 | JeffM2501 | !delete decks |
| 21:38.53 | TheLastSpartan | JeffM2501: okay |
| 21:38.59 | bryjen | TheLastSpartan: Tah mah de ? |
| 21:38.59 | TheLastSpartan | Mother fucker. |
| 21:39.02 | JeffM2501 | !flush |
| 21:39.03 | TheLastSpartan | JeffM2501: okay |
| 21:39.06 | JeffM2501 | what? |
| 21:39.09 | JeffM2501 | wow |
| 21:39.14 | DTRemenak | yeah, wow |
| 21:39.16 | JeffM2501 | she's a dirty little girl |
| 21:39.43 | JeffM2501 | !delete Tah Mah de |
| 21:39.44 | TheLastSpartan | JeffM2501: okay |
| 21:39.47 | JeffM2501 | !flush |
| 21:39.48 | bryjen | you may have been under the influence |
| 21:39.48 | TheLastSpartan | JeffM2501: okay |
| 21:39.53 | JeffM2501 | I probalby was |
| 21:39.59 | JeffM2501 | tho that is the correct translation :) |
| 21:40.24 | Tupone | there is a decks somewhere ? |
| 21:40.54 | Chestal | the dead reckonign code always confuses me |
| 21:41.09 | Tupone | what's up with that? |
| 21:41.09 | bryjen | there will be decks in 1h20m at bryjen.bzflag.org |
| 21:41.14 | DTRemenak | Chestal: you mean I'm not the only one? :) |
| 21:41.32 | bryjen | ~decks |
| 21:41.34 | ibot | hmm... decks is no one plays decks anymore :( |
| 21:41.46 | bryjen | sadly... |
| 21:41.48 | Tupone | bryjen: should I wait? ... any players? |
| 21:42.13 | bryjen | hmm, it's Friday. I will start it now |
| 21:42.31 | Tupone | hmm I guess ME are not welcome there. All people use ME now so nobody will play |
| 21:43.14 | bryjen | ~bzfquery bryjen.bzflag.org |
| 21:43.28 | bryjen | its using -a 50 38 |
| 21:43.38 | Tupone | good :) |
| 21:51.34 | *** part/#bzflag |zongo| (n=zongo@lsn-boi-catv-c114-p070.vtx.ch) |
| 22:08.39 | *** join/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 22:26.46 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@2002:45a6:86ae:0:0:0:0:1) |
| 22:28.54 | *** join/#bzflag callofhonor (n=183ddb61@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 22:30.03 | callofhonor | hi. i'm writing a program for homework. I have to make the program do some math and since i don't have access to the command file on this computer i'm going to need somebody to help me look for errors. Please. |
| 22:30.26 | RPG_ | eh? |
| 22:30.33 | RPG_ | ~ask |
| 22:30.34 | ibot | i guess ask is Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. Remember, we're all volunteers. Please don't /msg people without permission. See also http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html |
| 22:30.51 | callofhonor | give me a few minutes to write it up |
| 22:31.42 | wegstar | callofhonor: what lang? |
| 22:31.53 | callofhonor | Cplusplus |
| 22:32.02 | wegstar | callofhonor: ##C++ ;) |
| 22:37.02 | callofhonor | i hope this is right |
| 22:37.50 | RPG_ | pastebin, plese |
| 22:38.32 | RPG_ | i like the source cooring :) |
| 22:39.12 | wegstar | callofhonor: ##C++ :) |
| 22:39.24 | callofhonor | what? where did it go? |
| 22:39.41 | *** join/#bzflag wegstar (n=foo@allegro/user/wegstar) |
| 22:39.56 | callofhonor | where did it go? i had it all typed up |
| 22:40.06 | wegstar | argh |
| 22:40.23 | RPG_ | you tped it in the IRC box? |
| 22:40.27 | *** join/#bzflag orchid (n=bzgirl@unaffiliated/orchid) |
| 22:40.28 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v orchid] by ChanServ |
| 22:40.28 | callofhonor | yes |
| 22:40.37 | RPG_ | that's problem number one! |
| 22:40.38 | callofhonor | :? |
| 22:40.42 | wegstar | ctrl z |
| 22:40.46 | RPG_ | do it in an editor or something |
| 22:40.50 | RPG_ | where you can test it yourslef |
| 22:40.55 | callofhonor | did i just do what i think i just did..... |
| 22:40.59 | RPG_ | because it just might work the first wime wihtout us testing it |
| 22:41.11 | callofhonor | editor? |
| 22:41.33 | callofhonor | oh nvm. brb |
| 22:43.22 | callofhonor | /*Sean Thomson |
| 22:43.23 | callofhonor | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:43.23 | callofhonor | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:43.23 | callofhonor | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:43.23 | callofhonor | */ |
| 22:43.25 | callofhonor | #include<iostream.h> |
| 22:43.29 | callofhonor | int main() |
| 22:43.31 | callofhonor | { |
| 22:43.33 | callofhonor | cout<<"Average = "<<(14*16*13*19/4.0)<<endl; |
| 22:43.35 | callofhonor | return(0) |
| 22:43.37 | callofhonor | } |
| 22:43.54 | callofhonor | i think it might of messed up in the cout section |
| 22:44.11 | RPG_ | 1) use pastebin |
| 22:44.22 | callofhonor | what 's that |
| 22:44.29 | RPG_ | www.pastebin.com |
| 22:45.15 | callofhonor | http://pastebin.com/365948 |
| 22:45.18 | callofhonor | ????? |
| 22:45.36 | RPG_ | i can read it now! |
| 22:45.54 | RPG_ | cout, i use printf |
| 22:45.57 | RPG_ | sorry can't help |
| 22:46.08 | callofhonor | dangit, oh well |
| 22:46.11 | RPG_ | plus, make it more configurable |
| 22:46.13 | RPG_ | not so hardcoded |
| 22:46.35 | callofhonor | okay |
| 22:47.15 | callofhonor | well do u think i did it right? |
| 22:47.22 | RPG_ | not everybody gest 14, 16, 13, and then 19 on their tests |
| 22:47.34 | RPG_ | put a semicolin after "return(0)" |
| 22:47.40 | callofhonor | it's the # of students |
| 22:47.57 | RPG_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:48.03 | RPG_ | isn't the right code for averaging |
| 22:48.06 | callofhonor | yeah, that |
| 22:48.15 | RPG_ | (14+16+13+19)/4 |
| 22:48.24 | callofhonor | ****! |
| 22:48.27 | callofhonor | sry |
| 22:48.28 | RPG_ | ^ that will average |
| 22:48.42 | callofhonor | i'm an idiot |
| 22:49.38 | callofhonor | the ^ symbol will do what? |
| 22:50.06 | BearPerson | point upwards |
| 22:50.26 | callofhonor | does it go where the / symbol is in the equation |
| 22:50.34 | RPG_ | BearPerson: point upwards |
| 22:50.45 | RPG_ | i was refrencing the above equation |
| 22:50.47 | callofhonor | nvm |
| 22:51.36 | BearPerson | one of the lousiest uses of /me I've seen in a while ;-) |
| 22:51.55 | callofhonor | >:( |
| 22:52.16 | RPG_ | !weather 03801 |
| 22:52.19 | TheLastSpartan | RPG_: The current temperature in Portsmouth, New Hampshire (03801) is 63°F. |
| 22:52.28 | callofhonor | i'm going to go play bz for a little bit |
| 22:52.37 | callofhonor | cya |
| 23:00.43 | RPG_ | ping JeffM2501 |
| 23:01.38 | Inferno | u there rpg |
| 23:01.42 | RPG_ | yes |
| 23:02.20 | RPG_ | quick question, does linux use .txt for text files too? |
| 23:02.37 | *** join/#bzflag bz3499 (n=440d19e6@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:02.56 | bz3499 | is there a GUI for designed bzw maps |
| 23:02.58 | Inferno | donno |
| 23:03.08 | RPG_ | bz: how do you konw? |
| 23:03.18 | RPG_ | i havn't heard of any |
| 23:03.33 | meacan | RPG_: Sometimes. Its not strictly needed, but people uses it sometimes to show that this file is a plain text file by adding .txt |
| 23:03.42 | Inferno | rpg, can you make the groups gmwar.cop and ".mngr |
| 23:03.53 | RPG_ | no, but JeffM can |
| 23:03.57 | RPG_ | or any board admin |
| 23:04.06 | Inferno | oh, someone said you could help |
| 23:04.07 | RPG_ | if you are willing to wait, add htem in the "request groups here" thread |
| 23:04.11 | RPG_ | I can't add groups |
| 23:04.16 | RPG_ | but I can ask other peole to add groups for you |
| 23:04.19 | Inferno | I'm not willing to wait |
| 23:04.27 | Inferno | can you ask for me, thx |
| 23:04.32 | RPG_ | first |
| 23:04.37 | Inferno | yes? |
| 23:04.38 | RPG_ | ".mngr isn't a group name |
| 23:04.45 | Inferno | oh |
| 23:05.03 | RPG_ | name.adminlevel |
| 23:05.20 | bz3499 | IS THERE gui FOR DESIGNING bzw MAPS |
| 23:05.46 | RPG_ | bz3499: there's BZEdit, but it can only do old maps |
| 23:06.00 | Inferno | yeah, just make it .admin then, thx alot |
| 23:06.04 | RPG_ | there's also a pyBZEdit, which can do some 2.0 objects, iirc |
| 23:06.09 | RPG_ | Inferno: i'm a little busy right now |
| 23:06.13 | bz3499 | were is it |
| 23:06.20 | Inferno | do it by tonight then, k? |
| 23:06.21 | bz3499 | i mean how can i get it |
| 23:06.24 | RPG_ | search www.sourceforge.net for "pybzedit" |
| 23:06.29 | bz3499 | k |
| 23:06.32 | bz3499 | ty |
| 23:06.39 | RPG_ | Inferno: what's wrong wiht asking in "Request Groups Here" |
| 23:07.06 | RPG_ | bz_format is acting up again |
| 23:07.08 | Inferno | umm, it's been in there for atleast 3 days, and I'm doing it for a friend |
| 23:07.18 | RPG_ | Inferno: bump the thread |
| 23:07.37 | Inferno | how do you do that? |
| 23:07.52 | RPG_ | bzformat turns int 16 into const char* 1236776 |
| 23:08.05 | RPG_ | Inferno: make a post in the thread, saying "bump" or soemthing like that |
| 23:08.17 | Inferno | oh, ok |
| 23:08.26 | Inferno | but you can talk to someone for me? |
| 23:08.38 | RPG_ | i'll forget |
| 23:08.43 | Inferno | ah, ok |
| 23:08.45 | RPG_ | i need help of my own, too |
| 23:08.58 | Inferno | write it on your hand :) |
| 23:09.38 | Inferno | are you hosting your own server? |
| 23:09.46 | RPG_ | i used to |
| 23:09.58 | RPG_ | then i realized i was doing it on a cable connectin |
| 23:10.01 | RPG_ | and it got all laggy |
| 23:10.06 | RPG_ | and people stated to make threats against my life |
| 23:10.07 | Inferno | oh, that's too bad |
| 23:10.11 | *** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |
| 23:10.39 | RPG_ | and to wrap it all up, the server i was running BZFS on crashed |
| 23:10.43 | RPG_ | so it took care of itself |
| 23:11.12 | *** join/#bzflag KTL (n=KTL@kotnet-145.kulnet.kuleuven.be) |
| 23:13.52 | *** join/#bzflag silverfox (i=vircuser@68-116-47-254.static.mdfd.or.charter.com) |
| 23:22.54 | Tupone | !decks |
| 23:22.55 | TheLastSpartan | Tupone: NO this one goes here, THAT one goes there! |
| 23:23.09 | Tupone | ~decks |
| 23:23.10 | ibot | decks is probably no one plays decks anymore :( |
| 23:27.51 | Tupone | ~decks |
| 23:27.53 | ibot | rumour has it, decks is http://bzgirl.bakadigital.com/decks.html |
| 23:28.23 | RPG_ | decks |
| 23:28.25 | RPG_ | is it still running? |
| 23:28.50 | orchid | I'm not sure if anyone is running a decks server |
| 23:29.38 | Tupone | bryjen.bzflag.org |
| 23:43.56 | RPG_ | whopee! |
| 23:44.16 | RPG_ | masterbot logger works, all but the bz_format part |
| 23:44.42 | RPG_ | so instead of bening |
| 23:44.42 | RPG_ | 9-16-2005.txt |
| 23:44.42 | RPG_ | it's |
| 23:44.42 | RPG_ | 1238588-1238588-1238588.txt |
| 23:49.56 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 23:49.56 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 23:54.06 | *** join/#bzflag _bubbles_ (n=nadic666@toronto-HSE-ppp4001678.sympatico.ca) |
