irclog2html for #bzflag on 20050908

`00:10.30`	`*** join/#bzflag Legoguy (n=Legoguy@adsl-68-77-157-218.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net)`
`00:19.55`	`*** join/#bzflag geoffrey (n=geoffrey@host81-152-60-247.range81-152.btcentralplus.com)`
`00:20.08`	`geoffrey`	`hi`
`00:20.13`	`CIA-2`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10BZFlagG3D/tools/mapedit/ (5 files in 3 dirs): some movement controlls`
`00:20.15`	`JeffM2501`	`hello`
`00:26.03`	`CIA-2`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10BZFlagG3D/tools/mapedit/src/worldIO.cpp: read all the objects, don't skip the line after an END, it could be a real object`
`00:26.24`	`JeffM2501`	`damn, does MetropolisR1-3.bzw take forever to load`
`00:26.45`	`geoffrey`	`is it just me or is viper's down?`
`00:26.58`	`JeffM2501`	`~viper`
`00:27.11`	`JeffM2501`	`no it's fine`
`00:27.13`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just you`
`00:27.27`	`RPG_`	`its... rather empty`
`00:27.40`	`RPG_`	`for viper`
`00:27.42`	`JeffM2501`	`maybe it just restarted`
`00:27.53`	`geoffrey`	`nah`
`00:27.58`	`geoffrey`	`uptime shows over a day`
`00:28.17`	`JeffM2501`	`uptime on the computer does not == uptime on bzfs`
`00:28.27`	`JeffM2501`	`or even all the connecttions`
`00:28.41`	`geoffrey`	`probably more of these strange connection problems`
`00:28.51`	`DTRemenak`	`JeffM2501: there is an /uptime command. short of a network interruption that is = uptime on bzfs.`
`00:28.51`	`geoffrey`	`JeffM2501: /uptime on bzflag`
`00:29.31`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`00:29.38`	`JeffM2501`	`but a net intruption coudl kick everyone`
`00:29.44`	`geoffrey`	`yeah`
`00:29.45`	`DTRemenak`	`that it could`
`00:29.55`	`geoffrey`	`and there's been a could of those`
`00:31.12`	`DTRemenak`	`heh`
`00:31.23`	`JeffM2501`	`but at least this one has one :)`
`00:32.05`	`trepan`	`<PROTECTED>`
`00:32.47`	`JeffM2501`	`does that expand all groups?`
`00:33.13`	`trepan`	`yup, and -m to turn arc/cone/etc into meshes`
`00:33.19`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`00:33.27`	`JeffM2501`	`well there is no reason this should not read in groups`
`00:33.52`	`JeffM2501`	`I went thru the trouble of adding support for them`
`00:34.09`	`JeffM2501`	`tho I think I need to redo it a bit so it supports nested groups`
`00:34.54`	`RPG_`	`hmmm`
`00:34.57`	`JeffM2501`	`tho you can't really define in a define, right?`
`00:34.58`	`RPG_`	`interesting yellow sky`
`00:35.14`	`JeffM2501`	`just use a group in a define`
`00:35.30`	`RPG_`	`it'd be cool if you put the BZFlag mountians and the big grass plane in the map editor`
`00:35.38`	`RPG_`	`so it looks like the user is editing the map in-game`
`00:35.53`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, I just added the walls`
`00:35.59`	`JeffM2501`	`and the ground`
`00:36.03`	`trepan`	`what would a define in a define add?`
`00:36.11`	`RPG_`	`is that all you plan to do?`
`00:36.12`	`JeffM2501`	`trepan, nothing that I can think of`
`00:36.28`	`JeffM2501`	`so maybe I don't need to redo it`
`00:36.31`	`JeffM2501`	`just make it work`
`00:36.35`	`JeffM2501`	`RPG_, I plan nothing`
`00:37.21`	`trepan`	`allowing 'group's within 'define's is the key`
`00:37.44`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah that will work`
`00:38.35`	`JeffM2501`	`tho I need to make sure I order them correctly when I write them out`
`00:38.45`	`JeffM2501`	`or can they be in any order?`
`00:38.59`	`trepan`	`what diff does it make?`
`00:39.17`	`JeffM2501`	`depends how bz reads it and stores`
`00:39.31`	`JeffM2501`	`brlcad, what type of plugin?`
`00:39.36`	`trepan`	`everything gets reorder for both physics and rendering`
`00:39.49`	`JeffM2501`	`ok so it dosn't care`
`00:40.16`	`JeffM2501`	`didn't know if it would freak if it had a group that it hadn't had a define for yet`
`00:40.26`	`brlcad`	`a bundles`
`00:40.34`	`JeffM2501`	`what is a bundle?`
`00:40.44`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh good`
`00:40.52`	`JeffM2501`	`makes sense`
`00:41.05`	`brlcad`	`dyld loadable packs of code`
`00:41.11`	`trepan`	`but not for materials/texmats/dyncols/phydrvs...`
`00:41.13`	`brlcad`	`can be unloaded properly`
`00:41.24`	`JeffM2501`	`so non buggy plugins`
`00:41.34`	`brlcad`	`but they don't jive well with the backreferences you have in the api, though`
`00:41.56`	`JeffM2501`	`trepan, well I'm doing the writes in order, so the mats, colors, and drives will be at the top`
`00:41.56`	`brlcad`	`so trying a intermediary lib`
`00:42.09`	`JeffM2501`	`brlcad, backrefrencs?`
`00:42.16`	`JeffM2501`	`like calling functions in bzfs?`
`00:42.44`	`brlcad`	`having plugins calling routines in their parent loader`
`00:42.55`	`JeffM2501`	`what's the point of a plugin that cant' do that`
`00:43.05`	`brlcad`	`heh`
`00:43.20`	`JeffM2501`	`I guess maybe for like replaceable backends or something`
`00:43.22`	`brlcad`	`well, it's apparently a no no for portability`
`00:43.31`	`brlcad`	`libtool docs even have pretty little diagrams for it`
`00:44.11`	`trepan`	`JeffM2501: heck, you might even be able to reuse some of the ObstacleMgr code`
`00:44.25`	`JeffM2501`	`what would it do?`
`00:44.35`	`JeffM2501`	`I'm not actualy DOING anything with said stuff`
`00:44.45`	`trepan`	`the grouping stuff is in there`
`00:44.50`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just going to sit in ram`
`00:44.52`	`JeffM2501`	`and moc people`
`00:44.58`	`trepan`	`if nothing else, it'd be a good reference`
`00:45.10`	`JeffM2501`	`stuff like "ha hah, I'm a group and you can't edit me"`
`00:45.44`	`brlcad`	`JeffM2501: http://www.andamooka.org/reader.pl?pgid=autobookautobook_172&clid=388&nav=Next`
`00:46.28`	`JeffM2501`	`what's the point of a tree`
`00:46.52`	`JeffM2501`	`windows has no problems exporting functions from any module`
`00:47.32`	`brlcad`	`it'll work with dylibs too`
`00:47.49`	`brlcad`	`it's more about what happens to the undefined symbols, if it allows them or not`
`00:47.52`	`JeffM2501`	`how can you make a plugin that defines logic if it can't call stuff in the caller? just return an assload of data?`
`00:48.00`	`JeffM2501`	`ohh you guys don't have export libs`
`00:48.14`	`*** part/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`00:48.55`	`JeffM2501`	`in windows, bzfs makes a bzfs.lib when it's build, that contains link info for all the exported API fucntions ( and just them ). the plugin uses that lib when it links so it dosn't have undefined refrences.`
`00:48.58`	`brlcad`	`there are export libs, all non-static symbols are exported`
`00:49.06`	`brlcad`	`that's the difference, you're making a bzfs lib`
`00:49.13`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`00:49.14`	`brlcad`	`that's not happening on the unix build right now`
`00:49.19`	`JeffM2501`	`well it's automagic :)`
`00:49.33`	`brlcad`	`sort of auto.. you made the project ;)`
`00:49.48`	`brlcad`	`could make the makefile.am that way easily enough`
`00:49.50`	`JeffM2501`	`to the plugin bzfs is just like a DLL that happens to be allways loaded`
`00:50.00`	`brlcad`	`but that's the cause of the undefined symbols on the plugins, since they're not in a lib`
`00:50.09`	`JeffM2501`	`actualy you don't tell the project to make it, as soon as a declpec is exported, it makes one`
`00:50.17`	`JeffM2501`	`so it's that #def stuff that does it`
`00:51.09`	`JeffM2501`	`how hard is it to just export a lib with the API functions?`
`00:51.13`	`brlcad`	`"as soon as a declspec is exported" is the key action no?`
`00:51.27`	`brlcad`	`it's not at all, that's what I was playing with`
`00:51.35`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah when the compiler sees that there is an export, it starts making a lib`
`00:51.53`	`JeffM2501`	`but there isn't like a "make export lib" checkbox or anything in the project`
`00:52.16`	`JeffM2501`	`but all the API functions that are to be exported have the BZAPI macro infront of them`
`00:52.22`	`JeffM2501`	`if that helps you at all`
`00:53.19`	`brlcad`	`yeah, I never was a fan of the need to explicitly use and export symbol flags you have to toss around in studio`
`00:53.50`	`JeffM2501`	`it works, and makes the export lib rather clean, only thing in there are exported things`
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`00:54.17`	`brlcad`	`much nicer to just "make a lib" and have it make the lib, if you don't want it exported, it's static`
`00:54.17`	`JeffM2501`	`othwise couldn't you have link conflicts if you make a function with the same name as one in bzfs, in your plugin`
`00:54.34`	`JeffM2501`	`then you end up with static on the rest of your code`
`00:54.49`	`I_Died_Once`	`./bzfs: symbol lookup error: /home/death/bzflag/lib/libkillall.so: undefined symbol: _Z15bz_debugMessageiPKc`
`00:54.51`	`JeffM2501`	`usualy the API is smaller`
`00:55.03`	`JeffM2501`	`so puting a flag on them is easyer`
`00:55.23`	`brlcad`	`that generally goes on everything that's not static though`
`00:55.33`	`JeffM2501`	`not really`
`00:55.45`	`JeffM2501`	`you have things that you don't care if they are static, you just don't want them exported`
`00:55.52`	`JeffM2501`	`like most of the non static code in bzfs`
`00:55.53`	`brlcad`	`on most codes I've seen they usually do, rare func that doesn't`
`00:56.10`	`JeffM2501`	`very little in our product is static`
`00:56.13`	`brlcad`	`you "can" of course.. it's just not what I've seen much in practice`
`00:56.38`	`brlcad`	`i mean, I understand the reasoning`
`00:56.57`	`JeffM2501`	`I just find it easyer to think of "don't export' as the default, and if you want to export it, you specify it, since if you are exporting, you need to doc, and make sure it makes sense, and all that`
`00:56.58`	`brlcad`	`heck, it's the whole public/private api issue that libs try to deal with`
`00:57.06`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`00:57.16`	`JeffM2501`	`my bigest complaint is the template thing`
`00:57.28`	`JeffM2501`	`can't wait till the fix that sucker`
`00:57.49`	`JeffM2501`	`they'll probably make me use .net to get the "new" new`
`00:57.51`	`brlcad`	`i'm just not convinced that requiring an export flag is the best way, or even worth the downsides/complications that it can imply`
`00:57.55`	`*** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (n=I_Died_O@pcp0010382004pcs.savana01.ga.comcast.net)`
`00:58.02`	`brlcad`	`as a design`
`00:58.07`	`JeffM2501`	`actualy you don't have to do an export flag`
`00:58.12`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just the way I chose`
`00:58.15`	`JeffM2501`	`there are other ways`
`00:58.20`	`JeffM2501`	`exporting classes is cake`
`00:58.20`	`I_Died_Once`	`yo people`
`00:58.29`	`JeffM2501`	`just put the class name in the def`
`00:58.31`	`JeffM2501`	`and it's outa there`
`00:58.33`	`brlcad`	`how else would you export a C function?`
`00:58.49`	`JeffM2501`	`there is a .def file that has all the things you want to export`
`00:58.50`	`I_Died_Once`	`Heres one for y'`
`00:58.54`	`JeffM2501`	`so you could put it in there`
`00:58.55`	`brlcad`	`heh`
`00:58.59`	`*** join/#bzflag Guest018 (n=81f06947@genesis.concept69.de)`
`00:59.01`	`I_Died_Once`	`I go to run my server with today's CVS`
`00:59.07`	`brlcad`	`that's not really any different than labeling them where they're defined`
`00:59.14`	`brlcad`	`other than making you go to a different file`
`00:59.14`	`I_Died_Once`	`I get this error and the server does nto start`
`00:59.17`	`JeffM2501`	`no, that's why I put it in there`
`00:59.18`	`*** part/#bzflag juan22 (n=81f06947@genesis.concept69.de)`
`00:59.21`	`JeffM2501`	`I_Died_Once, we saw, noone knows`
`00:59.50`	`I_Died_Once`	`gah`
`00:59.54`	`brlcad`	`I_Died_Once: just be patient, it's being worked on`
`01:00.33`	`I_Died_Once`	`hmmmm Would valgrind posts be of help?`
`01:00.42`	`JeffM2501`	`so why was it working with with my old makefiles?`
`01:00.51`	`JeffM2501`	`what does libtool do that is so difrent then good old make?`
`01:00.58`	`brlcad`	`I_Died_Once: not really`
`01:02.07`	`brlcad`	`JeffM2501: it was only working on linux/gcc systems that support the flags given`
`01:02.14`	`JeffM2501`	`ahh`
`01:02.29`	`brlcad`	`libtool builds the dylibs and it's all working now, so all's good`
`01:02.39`	`brlcad`	`but bundles will be better in the long run`
`01:02.54`	`brlcad`	`and for that I'll need to make the api file a lib`
`01:02.58`	`I_Died_Once`	`so bundles it is!`
`01:03.00`	`brlcad`	`trivial stuff`
`01:03.23`	`brlcad`	`testing the build now`
`01:03.44`	`JeffM2501`	`I_Died_Once, bundles are for the mac`
`01:05.40`	`CIA-2`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10BZFlagG3D/tools/mapedit/data/ (22 files): data, data.. who's got the data`
`01:06.34`	`I_Died_Once`	`Janitor.so found but does not contain bz_Load method, error ./bzfs: undefined symbol: bz_Load`
`01:06.45`	`I_Died_Once`	`It's all Jeff's fault`
`01:07.28`	`brlcad`	`nah, I'm the one breaking stuff`
`01:08.01`	`brlcad`	`it gives me pleasure`
`01:08.08`	`I_Died_Once`	`I was going to blame secretplace at first`
`01:08.23`	`brlcad`	`blame learner`
`01:08.26`	`brlcad`	`he made me do it`
`01:08.32`	`I_Died_Once`	`bless his heart`
`01:08.59`	`I_Died_Once`	`done went and broke the plugins`
`01:09.04`	`I_Died_Once`	`cant use any of em`
`01:09.09`	`I_Died_Once`	`not even the old ones`
`01:09.13`	`I_Died_Once`	`I done tried`
`01:09.24`	`I_Died_Once`	`y'all done mucked up the API`
`01:09.24`	`brlcad`	`you think it was an accident, eh?`
`01:09.41`	`I_Died_Once`	`I got MoFO up and running.. pluginless`
`01:10.03`	`I_Died_Once`	`I like airspawn and roguegeno the best, BTW`
`01:13.02`	`I_Died_Once`	`you guys should also fix killall`
`01:13.24`	`I_Died_Once`	`make it a blatant admin abuse tool`
`01:13.44`	`I_Died_Once`	`even make it give points to whoever runs the killall`
`01:13.59`	`I_Died_Once`	`but never give it a perm - make it reliant on the /password`
`01:14.12`	`I_Died_Once`	`that way, it'll never fall into the wrong hands`
`01:15.07`	`I_Died_Once`	`if plugins worked, that is`
`01:15.34`	`blast007`	`I_Died_Once: CVS isn't supposed to always contain a working version of the software`
`01:15.40`	`blast007`	`that is a risk you take by using it...`
`01:15.59`	`blast007`	`but the great thing about it, you can checkout an earlier version`
`01:16.39`	`I_Died_Once`	`gah!`
`01:16.51`	`I_Died_Once`	`I want it and i want it now! now now now!!!`
`01:16.59`	`I_Died_Once`	`oh well`
`01:17.09`	`blast007`	`then fix it :)`
`01:17.33`	`I_Died_Once`	`seriously - Jeff, crlcad, or anyone - when they get it fixed, can somoene let me know?`
`01:17.33`	`brlcad`	`or shut up :)`
`01:17.40`	`blast007`	`hehe`
`01:17.55`	`brlcad`	`I_Died_Once: not me`
`01:17.58`	`brlcad`	`but if you really want to know`
`01:18.05`	`brlcad`	`join the commits mailing list and watch for the commit`
`01:18.42`	`I_Died_Once`	`gah`
`01:18.48`	`I_Died_Once`	`& where would I do that?`
`01:19.04`	`blast007`	`sourceforge`
`01:19.38`	`blast007`	`look for 'lists'`
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`03:20.35`	`I_Died_Once`	`Did they fix plugins in CVS yet?`
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`03:24.49`	`I_Died_Once`	`yo Jeff`
`03:25.41`	`blast007`	`I_Died_Once: I haven't seen any commits...`
`03:25.48`	`blast007`	`just be patient`
`03:26.02`	`blast007`	`you were only gone two hours :P`
`03:27.06`	`blast007`	`as I said earlier, if you need it to work now, just rollback until it does`
`03:27.35`	`I_Died_Once`	`how do i et yesterday's CVS then?`
`03:28.07`	`brlcad`	`man cvs`
`03:28.27`	`brlcad`	`-D option`
`03:29.36`	`I_Died_Once`	`gah`
`03:30.31`	`I_Died_Once`	`good god`
`03:31.01`	`blast007`	`?`
`03:31.23`	`I_Died_Once`	`Igot massive man pages on CVS`
`03:31.48`	`blast007`	`run a search for -D date_spec`
`03:32.19`	`blast007`	`aka, type /, and then -D date_spec`
`03:32.29`	`I_Died_Once`	`an example of how YOU would get yesterday's CVS would be nice to see & compare....`
`03:32.52`	`blast007`	`it's in the man page...`
`03:32.58`	`blast007`	`read`
`03:33.25`	`I_Died_Once`	`Call me lazy, but I don't wanna spaen two hours on this`
`03:33.48`	`blast007`	`http://www.umdl.umich.edu/docs/dlps/workflow/cvs-man.html`
`03:34.10`	`blast007`	`that one has a nicer set of example dates then my CVS man page does`
`03:35.02`	`orchid`	`I_Died_Once: like blast007 said, learn to search man pages with the / character, /-D for example`
`03:36.12`	`I_Died_Once`	`Its cool, people. I don't have the time on myhands to learn all thing CVS right now. I was hoping someone would just givem e the command line, like what is posted on the foums. I appreciate it.`
`03:36.38`	`I_Died_Once`	`Forget I asked, its no biggie`
`03:36.39`	`TheLastSpartan`	`I've never heard of I asked, its no biggie, I_Died_Once!`
`03:37.43`	`blast007`	`I_Died_Once: so you have enough time to come here and ask, but not enough time to read a paragraph of text?`
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`03:37.53`	`blast007`	`...`
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`04:18.46`	`smacnay`	`I just had my bzflag updated in the latest Debian testing and now I am constantly kicked from games due to jitter (numbers like -21233444332) or I can shoot through people but get killed by the same people. Is this a bug?`
`04:19.38`	`trepan`	`smacnay: yup, known bug`
`04:19.54`	`trepan`	`you might want to try building from CVS`
`04:22.58`	`smacnay`	`trepan: thanks - I might just downgrade to the previous version`
`04:26.19`	`smacnay`	`I can just wait... I don't "need" to play - I might actually get some of my work done.`
`14:21.38`	`*** join/#bzflag ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt)`
`14:21.38`	`*** topic/#bzflag is Topic for #bzflag: http://BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://my.BZFlag.org/bb/ \|\| http://my.BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag \|\| http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp \|\| http://BZFlag.org/wiki/Download \|\| try #bzchat if you just want to talk \|\| paste errors http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/`
`14:21.40`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ`
`14:21.52`	`I_Died_Once`	`~n`
`14:21.54`	`ibot`	`[n] the disease bzflag players get when they play too much`
`14:25.32`	`*** part/#bzflag kierra (n=4700a27a@genesis.concept69.de)`
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`14:45.06`	`*** part/#bzflag smacnay (n=smacnay@Toronto-HSE-ppp3713577.sympatico.ca)`
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`14:49.35`	`jpa-`	`ibot!!!!`
`14:50.20`	`NoRecess_`	`I'm not a bot :)`
`14:50.27`	`ruskie`	`lol`
`14:50.49`	`NoRecess_`	`using a dummy CGIIRC client..`
`14:51.01`	`jpa-`	`not you silly :)`
`15:14.37`	`*** part/#bzflag Tupone (n=atupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone)`
`15:16.50`	`*** join/#bzflag mmu_man (i=revol@ALyon-253-1-39-120.w83-205.abo.wanadoo.fr)`
`15:26.59`	`*** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@63.147.94.151)`
`15:56.33`	`*** join/#bzflag SportyGal (i=DonnaCra@24-75-159-182.vnnyca.adelphia.net)`
`16:04.18`	`*** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501)`
`16:04.19`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ`
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`16:12.00`	`geoffrey`	`BearPerson, you there?`
`16:12.11`	`BearPerson`	`half`
`16:12.30`	`ruskie`	`:)`
`16:12.30`	`geoffrey`	`check you email`
`16:12.36`	`geoffrey`	`bug in the patch...`
`16:12.41`	`geoffrey`	`*your`
`16:13.32`	`ruskie`	`I'm gonna go do some damage on viper if anyone looks for me..`
`16:13.47`	`_Manu_`	`:)`
`16:14.05`	`BearPerson`	`thanks, will look into it when I finish eating here`
`16:21.30`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-5-1-cust130.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
`16:23.47`	`geoffrey`	`patch -R undoes a previous patch?`
`16:25.52`	`BearPerson`	`think so, yes`
`16:26.28`	`CBG`	`BearPerson! :D :D`
`16:31.43`	`*** join/#bzflag RoMy (n=none@cs181130193.pp.htv.fi)`
`16:45.23`	`*** join/#bzflag dimitri (n=54387b85@genesis.concept69.de)`
`16:56.50`	`*** join/#bzflag bz7652 (n=c84ab6f2@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`16:57.11`	`bz7652`	`hello`
`16:57.25`	`bz7652`	`anyone here knows why my BZflag doesn't have sound?????`
`16:58.09`	`brlcad`	`speakers plugged in?`
`16:58.21`	`brlcad`	`wow, full of patience`
`17:01.09`	`ruskie`	`sheesh what a crummy team`
`17:01.36`	`*** join/#bzflag [dmp] (n=dennis@dahlia.d75.net)`
`17:02.37`	`meacan`	`:)`
`17:02.49`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o brlcad] by ChanServ`
`17:03.16`	`meacan`	`just got a corfirmation that the project is okay from my advisor`
`17:03.22`	`brlcad`	`damn freenode private message blocking :)`
`17:03.30`	`brlcad`	`been blocking all day and hadn't noticed`
`17:03.35`	`brlcad`	`meacan: excellent`
`17:08.22`	`meacan`	`i think my first step is to dig into how TCP works and try to find games and see how they do networking. Just to get started`
`17:14.53`	`meacan`	`cool :)`
`17:15.54`	`meacan`	`i got a year to write the report/do my research in, so im abit excited to see where this could go`
`17:34.59`	`jomojo`	`well silvercat is back up and running`
`17:36.08`	`*** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc2-stme1-5-1-cust130.cdif.cable.ntl.com)`
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`18:00.32`	`brad2901`	`any ideas how to "fix" this error: http://pastebin.ca/22393 ?`
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`18:04.57`	`geoffrey`	`hi`
`18:05.04`	`JeffM2501`	`hello`
`18:07.51`	`brlcad`	`break dance?`
`18:08.38`	`JeffM2501`	`purchase an ATI card(s)`
`18:08.52`	`JeffM2501`	`hard to pass up X800Pros for 179`
`18:11.23`	`*** join/#bzflag jomojo (n=jomojo@c-24-17-68-130.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)`
`18:15.05`	`brlcad`	`meacan: okay, done with my meeting so I got a little sec to talk :)`
`18:16.05`	`brlcad`	`meacan: as you're probably aware, there's been quite a lot of people (myself included) look into enhancing the networking layer in bz`
`18:16.27`	`brlcad`	`there have actually been at least two full implementations to date that students performed but never got rolled in`
`18:16.58`	`brlcad`	`one of the best was probably last year, a paper was written and presented at ACM SIGCOMM iirc`
`18:17.54`	`meacan`	`My priority is to get my degree. If you dont use it, i wont bad too angry :)`
`18:17.54`	`brlcad`	`there have been a fair number of other papers written on the subject as well, focusing on different aspects. from the point of actually improving the gameplay, most of the work needed is actually dead reckoning related`
`18:18.03`	`brlcad`	`what's the research specifically?`
`18:18.18`	`meacan`	`network communication for realtime games`
`18:18.52`	`meacan`	`with the aim for suggesting a generic approach, and using "some game" to measure its performance`
`18:18.53`	`brlcad`	`at what level of communication? or is that open-ended?`
`18:19.39`	`meacan`	`open, it should only provide the framework`
`18:20.47`	`brlcad`	`the biggest problem in games again is pretty much management of dead reckoning and state/time management`
`18:21.06`	`brlcad`	`getting everyone to think that what they see and shoot at is really there`
`18:21.11`	`brlcad`	`predictive delay management`
`18:21.25`	`brlcad`	`here are some papers to get you started: http://bzflag.bz/tmp/dead-reckoning/`
`18:21.30`	`meacan`	`Yeah, i saw the accuracy.pdf talking about DR in bzflag.`
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`18:22.51`	`brlcad`	`accuracy.pdf.. is that the sigcomm one?`
`18:23.33`	`brlcad`	`http://www.sigcomm.org/sigcomm2004/workshops_papers.html`
`18:23.47`	`meacan`	`i think i've lost it in my diskcrash. But it concluded that with a global clock you could improve dr in bzflag`
`18:23.58`	`brlcad`	`ah, sounds like it`
`18:24.13`	`brlcad`	`yeah, having a global syncronized clock is critical to most all of the best algorithms`
`18:28.47`	`meacan`	`is that document in /tmp/dead-reckoning as well?`
`18:30.15`	`meacan`	`what happened with the other attempts to imporove networking?`
`18:31.11`	`Birdie`	`JeffM2501 ping?`
`18:38.47`	`CIA-2`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10BZFlagG3D/tools/mapedit/ (vc71/mapedit.vcproj inc/textures.h src/textures.cpp): stuff to load that new data`
`18:42.16`	`brlcad`	`meacan: no, it's not -- it's in that second link, though`
`18:42.19`	`brlcad`	`http://www.sigcomm.org/sigcomm2004/workshops_papers.html`
`18:42.30`	`brlcad`	`there's a link to the pdf`
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`18:42.57`	`meacan`	`brlcad: got it`
`18:43.13`	`brlcad`	`meacan: nothing "happened" to them.. they were implemented, deemed a success, and their implementors moved on to other things`
`18:44.03`	`brlcad`	`i've been too busy myself to either find their patches or reimplement the improvements possible.`
`18:44.59`	`meacan`	`brlcad: so they exists on sf somewhere? if they do, i might as well see what they did right`
`18:46.39`	`brlcad`	`meacan: heh, no .. it exists on their hard drives`
`18:46.50`	`brlcad`	`you'd have to e-mail the kids that wrote the papers`
`18:47.19`	`brlcad`	`i've talked to them in the past, they're very receptive and interested in getting their changes into bz proper`
`18:47.52`	`brlcad`	`it's just that they did it for some class, and now they've moved on to other things -- but I'm sure if you ask, they'd send you what they have`
`18:48.08`	`brlcad`	`could commit their changes to a branch and start tweaking away, see how it goes/looks`
`18:48.31`	`meacan`	`yeah, couldnt hurt to contact them`
`18:49.42`	`Chestal`	`hmm, I read one of the papers which tried to compensate constant dt in bzflag DR`
`18:49.51`	`Chestal`	`the metric they used was not good IMHO`
`18:58.46`	`Chestal`	`is there more than one which uses bzflag?`
`18:59.00`	`brlcad`	`yeah, there have been at least two`
`18:59.29`	`brlcad`	`this is the one from last year: http://www.sigcomm.org/sigcomm2004/workshops_papers.html#netgames15`
`19:00.17`	`brlcad`	`from what I've tested, you get exceptional results if you have both a client and server message queue`
`19:01.02`	`brlcad`	`the client is presented with items in their queue that are at least some delta old`
`19:01.12`	`Chestal`	`I think this is the paper which I read and didn't liek very much`
`19:01.27`	`brlcad`	`i.e. they're playing with a very tiny lag induced locally, like 20-40ms`
`19:02.12`	`brlcad`	`the outbound is not, however, buffered and sent immediate delivery`
`19:03.09`	`brlcad`	`server receives all updates, which are necessarily globablly stamped, and simply relays accordingly but delivering outbound in sorted order`
`19:04.32`	`brlcad`	`while the client delay reduces the best possible lag to whatever your aging criteria is (20-40ms) it will reduce the perceived AND average lag across the board`
`19:05.09`	`brlcad`	`the trick is picking that aging criteria dynamically so that if you have all high-speed players, they are not all penalized, etc`
`19:05.33`	`brlcad`	`or if you have very laggy players, you need a larger aging value`
`19:05.50`	`Chestal`	`I am not sure I am sure what you are talking about :-)`
`19:06.13`	`brlcad`	`:-)`
`19:09.18`	`brlcad`	`we could easily write a paper on it ;-)`
`19:09.52`	`Chestal`	`are there good basic papers on dead reckoning / lag compensation?`
`19:10.06`	`brlcad`	`not a whole lot`
`19:10.45`	`brlcad`	`that sigcomm list from last year represents a large portion of the latest`
`19:10.56`	`brlcad`	`there have been several at the gamedev conf.`
`19:11.08`	`Chestal`	`shoudl at least include some possible metrics, different predictin schemes (if necessary) and maybe some practical experiments (how does it feel for the players)`
`19:11.25`	`brlcad`	`<PROTECTED>`
`19:11.29`	`Chestal`	`and also include different game characteristics, which are important to be considered`
`19:11.51`	`Chestal`	`well, I can publish anythign I want :-)`
`19:11.54`	`Chestal`	`(more or less)`
`19:12.04`	`Chestal`	`I fear I will not get paid for this research, though`
`19:13.01`	`brlcad`	`hehe`
`19:13.52`	`brlcad`	`I could probably make it work related easily enough, but it would have to be even more generic`
`19:24.54`	`Chestal`	`woah, I'm tired. Where's the antidote?`
`19:28.42`	`*** join/#bzflag tavla (n=spreker@ip51cfa1ef.direct-adsl.nl)`
`19:33.18`	`brlcad`	`Chestal: it's called "caffeine" no?`
`19:33.44`	`Chestal`	`I'll try beer instead :-)`
`19:34.05`	`brlcad`	`ahh, the poison AND the cure`
`19:53.01`	`*** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (n=Julio@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net)`
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`20:18.16`	`menotume`	`how much money do asses have ?`
`20:18.27`	`ruskie`	`void`
`20:19.22`	`*** join/#bzflag \|zongo\| (n=zongo@84-72-45-91.dclient.hispeed.ch)`
`20:19.32`	`JeffM2501`	`a lot`
`20:19.54`	`JeffM2501`	`<PROTECTED>`
`20:20.04`	`JeffM2501`	`and what ever a case costs`
`20:27.55`	`JeffM2501`	`DTRemenak, ping`
`20:28.13`	`*** part/#bzflag \|zongo\| (n=zongo@84-72-45-91.dclient.hispeed.ch)`
`20:29.56`	`*** join/#bzflag BearPerson (i=karsten@sourcemage/pdpc.sustaining.BearPerson)`
`20:32.15`	`menotume`	`ahh, i c. A new vid card requires other new hardware to go with it :)`
`20:32.33`	`ruskie`	`most of the time yeah :)`
`20:41.07`	`JeffM2501`	`new CPU means new mobob`
`20:41.11`	`JeffM2501`	`new mobo means new ram`
`20:41.22`	`JeffM2501`	`new mobo that dosn't have AGP mean new video cards`
`20:45.08`	`JeffM2501`	`so it all adds up`
`20:45.18`	`JeffM2501`	`wonder how linux and NForce4 work tho`
`20:46.12`	`*** join/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`20:46.17`	`CBG_`	`RPG_ :)`
`20:46.23`	`RPG_`	`hello, CBG_`
`20:46.29`	`RPG_`	`i didn't even look at who said that :)`
`20:46.58`	`CBG_`	`Hang on, why am i CBG_ ?`
`20:47.02`	`CBG_`	`Wheres CBG`
`20:47.03`	`CBG_`	`?`
`20:47.07`	`RPG_`	`/nick CBG`
`20:47.19`	`RPG_`	`an imposter already registered "RPG" here, so i gotta go with "RPG_"`
`20:47.33`	`RPG`	`but who says I can't bent the rules a bit ;)`
`20:47.35`	`JeffM2501`	`how long has it been reged for? they time out after a while`
`20:47.42`	`JeffM2501`	`when was it last used?`
`20:47.43`	`RPG`	`it won't say`
`20:47.43`	`BearPerson`	`1 day ago`
`20:47.55`	`RPG`	`NickServ only says "This name is owned by someone else"`
`20:47.57`	`CBG`	`RPG: seems to work ok for you now...?`
`20:48.00`	`RPG`	`"type identify blab blab blah"`
`20:48.07`	`RPG`	`RPG always worked, I just can't login with it`
`20:48.25`	`BearPerson`	`I think you're out of luck, it's been used "1 day (3h 30m 17s) ago"`
`20:48.42`	`JeffM2501`	`it's somone else's active name`
`20:49.44`	`RPG`	`BearPerson: where do you get those stats from?`
`20:50.00`	`BearPerson`	`/msg nickserv info rpg`
`20:55.06`	`RPG_`	`can someone provide an example on how to use tokenize with the new TextUtils system in the API?`
`20:55.19`	`CBG`	`Would a copy of a linux distro such as "Linspire" normally be about 650MB?`
`20:55.22`	`JeffM2501`	`get a new string list`
`20:55.25`	`JeffM2501`	`call it's tok`
`20:55.31`	`JeffM2501`	`then it will be filled with the parts`
`20:55.40`	`DTRemenak`	`JeffM2501: pong`
`20:55.51`	`JeffM2501`	`DTRemenak, nforce4 and linux, know anything?`
`20:55.59`	`DTRemenak`	`nope`
`20:56.04`	`JeffM2501`	`fair nuf :)`
`20:56.15`	`DTRemenak`	`sorry :)`
`20:57.08`	`RPG_`	`you can only use tokenize with bzAPIStringList 's`
`20:57.23`	`RPG_`	`i'd like to tokenize a bzAPIString`
`20:57.49`	`JeffM2501`	`Sigh`
`20:57.53`	`RPG_`	`ohhh`
`20:57.58`	`RPG_`	`lemme see`
`20:57.58`	`JeffM2501`	`:)`
`20:58.05`	`JeffM2501`	`what are the parms to tok?`
`20:58.19`	`RPG_`	`?`
`20:58.19`	`RPG_`	`bzAPIStringList params = params.tokenize(_message.c_str(), " ");`
`20:58.31`	`RPG_`	`eh?`
`20:58.37`	`JeffM2501`	`you need to ask for a new string list`
`20:58.40`	`JeffM2501`	`not just allocate one`
`20:58.56`	`JeffM2501`	`since the code has to be done inside bzfs`
`20:59.01`	`JeffM2501`	`and not in your module`
`20:59.12`	`RPG_`	`like initiate a class?`
`20:59.16`	`JeffM2501`	`no`
`20:59.23`	`JeffM2501`	`like use newBZApiStringList`
`20:59.29`	`JeffM2501`	`it returns a list to you`
`20:59.42`	`JeffM2501`	`then use the delete on it when you are done`
`21:10.02`	`RPG_`	`data->callsign.replaceAll(":", ""); returns NULL ?`
`21:10.08`	`RPG_`	`here's my line`
`21:10.13`	`RPG_`	`report_data += data->callsign.replaceAll(":", "");`
`21:10.44`	`RPG_`	`racetoseven.cpp(42) : error C2679: binary '+=' : no operator found which takes a right-hand operand of type 'void' (or there is no acceptable conversion)`
`21:11.07`	`BearPerson`	`it seems to return void, not NULL`
`21:11.17`	`RPG_`	`err yes, void`
`21:11.18`	`JeffM2501`	`what does replace all do?`
`21:11.23`	`JeffM2501`	`read the function`
`21:11.30`	`BearPerson`	`looks to me as if .replaceAll replaces the string it is bound to, not return a new one`
`21:11.30`	`RPG_`	`replaces one occourance of text with another`
`21:11.31`	`JeffM2501`	`it dosnt' RETURN the value it changes the value in the string`
`21:13.29`	`JeffM2501`	`copy data->callsign to a temp`
`21:13.33`	`JeffM2501`	`replace the temp`
`21:13.48`	`JeffM2501`	`then += that`
`21:14.16`	`JeffM2501`	`if you want to do it the old way, then just copy the replace all from TextUtils into your code`
`21:15.39`	`*** join/#bzflag Phishy042 (n=Conleyd@c-24-62-42-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`21:15.53`	`Phishy042`	`hey!!!`
`21:16.05`	`Phishy042`	`anyone think they can help me with a server problem?`
`21:16.13`	`JeffM2501`	`what is the problem?`
`21:16.37`	`Phishy042`	`well not really a problem, just help on how to get it up an running? or is that too hard?`
`21:17.16`	`JeffM2501`	`there are threads on the forums with step by step instructions on how to set them`
`21:17.23`	`JeffM2501`	`basicly they run via command line`
`21:17.29`	`JeffM2501`	`what OS are you on?`
`21:17.37`	`Phishy042`	`hahah windows`
`21:17.41`	`Phishy042`	`i heard thats the harderst`
`21:17.50`	`JeffM2501`	`not really`
`21:17.52`	`JeffM2501`	`it's all the same`
`21:17.56`	`JeffM2501`	`what version of windows?`
`21:18.11`	`Phishy042`	`me`
`21:18.14`	`JeffM2501`	`eww`
`21:18.18`	`JeffM2501`	`well`
`21:18.18`	`JeffM2501`	`http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2915`
`21:18.27`	`Phishy042`	`haha`
`21:18.33`	`JeffM2501`	`ME blows`
`21:18.42`	`JeffM2501`	`but that will tell you how to start a server`
`21:18.47`	`JeffM2501`	`and make it public if you wish`
`21:18.49`	`Phishy042`	`tahnks`
`21:21.37`	`Phishy042`	`wait i have ,p. is that better?`
`21:21.40`	`Phishy042`	`xp`
`21:21.50`	`JeffM2501`	`home or pro?`
`21:21.54`	`Phishy042`	`home`
`21:22.01`	`JeffM2501`	`it will be more stable`
`21:22.07`	`Phishy042`	`nice`
`21:22.10`	`JeffM2501`	`but XP limits the number of connections it can have`
`21:22.18`	`JeffM2501`	`so you wont' get more then like 8-10 players`
`21:22.35`	`JeffM2501`	`the workstation windows versions are not the best servers`
`21:23.34`	`*** join/#bzflag _bubbles_ (n=nadic666@toronto-HSE-ppp4265641.sympatico.ca)`
`21:24.50`	`Phishy042`	`aw that sucks... startin to wish i had somethin else`
`21:25.26`	`JeffM2501`	`there are ways to change the registry to let XP home do more connections`
`21:25.42`	`JeffM2501`	`and there are other OSs that run servers better`
`21:25.45`	`JeffM2501`	`like linux`
`21:25.52`	`JeffM2501`	`it's well suited for servers`
`21:26.00`	`Phishy042`	`yeah thats what i hear`
`21:26.15`	`JeffM2501`	`it offers many good remote admin tools`
`21:26.27`	`JeffM2501`	`what kind of net connection do you have?`
`21:27.35`	`*** join/#bzflag silverfox (i=vircuser@68-116-47-254.static.mdfd.or.charter.com)`
`21:28.04`	`Phishy042`	`cable.....`
`21:28.50`	`JeffM2501`	`what speed cable`
`21:28.57`	`JeffM2501`	`mostly what is your upload speed?`
`21:29.30`	`Phishy042`	`haha i dont even know`
`21:29.37`	`Phishy042`	`im not that good with computers`
`21:29.55`	`JeffM2501`	`were you going to make the server public?`
`21:31.03`	`Phishy042`	`i was gonna try`
`21:31.12`	`JeffM2501`	`that's a very big thing`
`21:31.23`	`JeffM2501`	`if you don't know what you are doing you could open your computer up to a world of hurt`
`21:31.32`	`Phishy042`	`like if i could get one other person to visit it, i would consider it a success`
`21:31.40`	`JeffM2501`	`then windows would be fine`
`21:31.52`	`JeffM2501`	`just be carefull`
`21:32.04`	`JeffM2501`	`you are basicly puting part of your computer on the net for anyone to get to`
`21:32.21`	`Phishy042`	`yeah i know... hahah`
`21:32.32`	`JeffM2501`	`are you behind a router?`
`21:33.11`	`Phishy042`	`yes`
`21:33.34`	`JeffM2501`	`you have to configure your router to open up ports`
`21:34.17`	`Phishy042`	`o shit... so should i just scrap this entire idea?`
`21:36.55`	`JeffM2501`	`please watch your language`
`21:36.57`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not hard`
`21:37.01`	`JeffM2501`	`but you'll have to do it`
`21:37.09`	`JeffM2501`	`it's just not something to be taken lightly`
`21:39.56`	`*** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone)`
`21:39.56`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ`
`21:41.11`	`CBG`	`Could someone possibly put the names unde rthe pic, into the order, please? http://pics.bzleague.com/displayimage.php?pos=-17`
`21:42.02`	`Birdie`	`the first time i guess correct totaly outside 2 names (on another pic), you should do to..`
`21:42.50`	`Phishy042`	`how do i know that a world i am trying to load is .bzw?`
`21:42.53`	`CBG`	`What? take random guesses?`
`21:43.27`	`Tupone`	`CBG I guess Sportchick is easy. Start from her`
`21:43.40`	`CBG`	`Thats one out of, like 8...`
`21:44.15`	`DTRemenak`	`increases your chances to 1/7 for the rest :)`
`21:44.31`	`*** join/#bzflag silverfx (i=vircuser@68-116-47-254.static.mdfd.or.charter.com)`
`21:44.34`	`DTRemenak`	`you should be able to get most of them with a bit of research`
`21:45.02`	`*** join/#bzflag dartman (n=46f05c70@webchat.bzflag.bz)`
`21:45.14`	`Tupone`	`if you know who mozul is, that is easy to guess, too`
`21:45.25`	`dartman`	`hi all`
`21:45.31`	`dartman`	`help please`
`21:45.48`	`Phishy042`	`hi`
`21:45.48`	`Tupone`	`!ask`
`21:45.49`	`TheLastSpartan`	`Tupone: I'm sorry, I was listening to AirSupply.`
`21:45.54`	`Tupone`	`~ask`
`21:45.58`	`ibot`	`rumour has it, ask is Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. Remember, we're all volunteers. Please don't /msg people without permission. See also http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html`
`21:46.27`	`DTRemenak`	`there are actually two group pictures, but with some different people in them. if you can find the other one, then you can split it into two small groups (like 6 and 2 or so) with names for each group`
`21:46.36`	`Tupone`	`SportChick hubby > Hi stop with the hints`
`21:46.38`	`CBG`	`OOh. :)`
`21:46.46`	`DTRemenak`	`and for some of those people there exist other pictures`
`21:46.56`	`DTRemenak`	`you just need to look for them`
`21:48.57`	`Tupone`	`dartman miss to ask :/`
`21:49.26`	`DTRemenak`	`you can figure out who everyone is with only public information (I tried it)`
`21:50.19`	`CBG`	`Bah, I'm apathetic... Can't you tell me? :P`
`21:50.35`	`Phishy042`	`my server is now on the public server list, but cant load right any help?`
`21:51.01`	`DTRemenak`	`nope :) if you do not care then you do not find out :)`
`21:51.20`	`CBG`	`I care, I'm just lazy. :)`
`21:51.39`	`CBG`	`Apathy was the wrong word, I guess. :)`
`21:51.41`	`DTRemenak`	`if you do not care enough to overcome your laziness then you do not find out :)`
`21:52.04`	`*** part/#bzflag Phishy042 (n=Conleyd@c-24-62-42-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`21:52.24`	`CBG`	`pf. fine. :P`
`21:52.54`	`CBG`	`While I have your attention, would you expect a copy of Linspire to be about 600MB?`
`21:53.09`	`*** join/#bzflag CoolEthan (n=DanC310@c-24-62-42-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`21:53.18`	`DTRemenak`	`that sounds reasonable, if it is one cd`
`21:53.53`	`CBG`	`It's a download...`
`21:54.01`	`CBG`	`and is taking hours... :/`
`21:54.01`	`CoolEthan`	`hello everyone`
`21:54.09`	`CBG`	`Hi CoolEthan`
`21:54.10`	`JeffM2501`	`what does linspire offer that others don't?`
`21:54.14`	`CoolEthan`	`hi`
`21:54.35`	`CoolEthan`	`ccan anyone help me with server problems?`
`21:54.36`	`CBG`	`JeffM2501: it costs money, but they were offering it for free, how could I say no.`
`21:54.51`	`JeffM2501`	`I know that`
`21:54.59`	`JeffM2501`	`but what does it have that others don't?`
`21:55.07`	`Tupone`	`CoolEthan: what kind of problem ?`
`21:55.09`	`CBG`	`I know near to nothing about linux, and have no other distros. It just sounds like fun. :)`
`21:55.26`	`CBG`	`JeffM2501: I forget, romfis posted something on bzbb.`
`21:55.33`	`CBG`	`MP3 support and similar things, iirc.`
`21:55.42`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, it was on /. ages ago, mostly I wasn't asking you :)`
`21:55.46`	`CoolEthan`	`well im trying to start a new server, my first, i fallowed instructions and got it up on the public server thing, but cant connect`
`21:55.51`	`JeffM2501`	`mp3 support? you mean like a simple player?`
`21:55.59`	`JeffM2501`	`CoolEthan, are you behind a router?`
`21:56.05`	`CoolEthan`	`yeaaaaaaaaaaa`
`21:56.19`	`JeffM2501`	`did you open the ports and do a forward to your server machien on your router?`
`21:56.26`	`CBG`	`JeffM2501: Don;t ask me!! lol :) It still has 500MB to go.`
`21:56.37`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, I wasn't really asking you :)`
`21:56.38`	`CoolEthan`	`i dont know how`
`21:56.48`	`JeffM2501`	`CoolEthan, you need to find out, it will be in your router manual`
`21:57.00`	`JeffM2501`	`usualy called "Virtual server" "port forwarding" or "static route"`
`21:57.01`	`CBG`	`JeffM2501: That last question was after "CBG"...`
`21:57.08`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, so`
`21:57.17`	`bryjen`	`linspire/lindows is a make-it-easy-for-former-windows-users thingy. that and their "click and run" application downloader/installer`
`21:57.29`	`JeffM2501`	`oh so crapy apt`
`21:57.42`	`CoolEthan`	`ok`
`21:57.42`	`CBG`	`pf, sounds like its not linux...`
`21:57.49`	`CBG`	`might as well not bother.`
`21:57.54`	`JeffM2501`	`if it's lindows I get it`
`21:57.58`	`JeffM2501`	`didn't know they changed there name`
`21:58.03`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, just install FC4`
`21:58.16`	`bryjen`	`yeah, sued into the name change, iirc`
`21:58.23`	`CBG`	`Why that, over all the others?`
`21:58.24`	`JeffM2501`	`I thought MS didn't win`
`21:58.38`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, simplest install, most commonly used software comes with it`
`21:58.43`	`JeffM2501`	`it's a good "starter" linux`
`21:58.58`	`CBG`	`Ok, thanks! :)`
`21:59.33`	`bryjen`	`and distro is going to be at least a couple hundred megs download`
`21:59.37`	`bryjen`	`s/and/any`
`21:59.37`	`JeffM2501`	`then you move to like debian, gentoo, mandrake.. thigns people call "real" distors`
`21:59.49`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah 4 cds is common for a non net install`
`22:00.05`	`JeffM2501`	`but then you get like open office and stuff with it`
`22:00.21`	`JeffM2501`	`linspire probably comes with squat for software`
`22:00.25`	`CBG`	`FC4 is also 650MB, pf.`
`22:00.39`	`JeffM2501`	`any linux with X is going to be at least that size`
`22:00.44`	`CoolEthan`	`what exactly is a router?`
`22:00.46`	`JeffM2501`	`you can do a debian net install`
`22:00.53`	`CBG`	`a what? :/`
`22:01.01`	`JeffM2501`	`CoolEthan, the thing between your boradband modem and the computers in your house ( if you have one )`
`22:01.18`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, you can get like an 80 meg boot CD and install deiban from the inerweb`
`22:01.28`	`JeffM2501`	`basicly it downloads what it needs as it installed`
`22:01.43`	`Tupone`	`FC4 is at least 4 CD so not 650 but 2600`
`22:01.56`	`CoolEthan`	`yeah... is that the think that the cable line is hooked into or the thing that all my comps are hooked into?`
`22:02.00`	`JeffM2501`	`but those 4cds are all you need`
`22:02.03`	`CBG`	`Where can I get this CD? and yes Tupone: I just saw that. Its 4*650.`
`22:02.11`	`JeffM2501`	`CoolEthan, the thing all your "comps" are hooked into`
`22:02.14`	`JeffM2501`	`you may want to ask for help`
`22:02.20`	`JeffM2501`	`maybe from who ever set up your network`
`22:02.33`	`CoolEthan`	`o`
`22:02.51`	`CoolEthan`	`o well forget this craaaazy dream of havin a server`
`22:02.51`	`JeffM2501`	`since they basicly have to tell the router to let the info for your server come in from outside`
`22:02.57`	`JeffM2501`	`it's not hard`
`22:03.01`	`Tupone`	`not all you need, almost all, I guess it is missing bzflag`
`22:03.06`	`JeffM2501`	`you just have to find out how to do it in your router manual`
`22:03.15`	`CoolEthan`	`o`
`22:03.19`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah not all`
`22:03.21`	`JeffM2501`	`just the bzflag info`
`22:03.25`	`JeffM2501`	`on a specific "port"`
`22:03.40`	`JeffM2501`	`who set up your network?`
`22:03.42`	`*** part/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@63.147.94.151)`
`22:03.52`	`CoolEthan`	`i dont know`
`22:04.05`	`JeffM2501`	`somone in your famialy?`
`22:04.22`	`CoolEthan`	`i dont think so... o i know`
`22:04.41`	`JeffM2501`	`so the network magicaly appeared?`
`22:05.52`	`Tupone`	`CoolEthan: router brand? Just to know`
`22:08.20`	`CoolEthan`	`does d link sound right?`
`22:08.27`	`JeffM2501`	`that is a brand`
`22:08.32`	`CoolEthan`	`then thats it`
`22:08.42`	`JeffM2501`	`is this your network of computers?`
`22:08.46`	`JeffM2501`	`or maybe like your parents?`
`22:09.10`	`CoolEthan`	`pretty much, its my familys`
`22:09.46`	`JeffM2501`	`you may want to ask for help`
`22:09.54`	`JeffM2501`	`you'll need things like the router username and password`
`22:10.00`	`JeffM2501`	`and knowledge of what your server's IP is`
`22:10.05`	`JeffM2501`	`these are things we can't help you with`
`22:10.15`	`JeffM2501`	`since we don't know how it was set up`
`22:10.31`	`JeffM2501`	`best would be geting help from the person who set it all up in the first place`
`22:12.19`	`*** join/#bzflag CoolerEthan (n=DanC310@c-24-62-42-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`22:12.49`	`CoolerEthan`	`haha so i just unplugged myself from the router sn stuck in directly in the other thing but that didnt work`
`22:13.01`	`JeffM2501`	`umm`
`22:13.11`	`JeffM2501`	`that's generaly not a good idea`
`22:13.24`	`JeffM2501`	`that puts you behind the firewall`
`22:13.31`	`JeffM2501`	`and the comptuer on the raw internet`
`22:13.36`	`JeffM2501`	`all hackable and stuff`
`22:13.46`	`CoolerEthan`	`well i changed it back`
`22:13.48`	`CoolerEthan`	`haha`
`22:14.09`	`JeffM2501`	`you came here before under another name didn't you?`
`22:14.52`	`*** part/#bzflag RPG_ (n=G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net)`
`22:15.58`	`CoolerEthan`	`yeah that was wat i had when i just download stuff, i changed it just a minute ago to my bz callsign`
`22:16.13`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd realy recomend geting help`
`22:16.28`	`CoolerEthan`	`yeah i think im just gonna stop tryin`
`22:16.48`	`JeffM2501`	`is there a problem with just asking for help at home?`
`22:16.52`	`JeffM2501`	`or do they not want you doing it?`
`22:17.14`	`CoolerEthan`	`no, its not that, beleive it or not, im the most technologically advanced person in my house`
`22:17.22`	`CoolerEthan`	`my parents would have NO idea what to do`
`22:17.34`	`JeffM2501`	`how did your network get installed in the first place?`
`22:17.51`	`CoolerEthan`	`a guy my parents are friends with`
`22:18.03`	`JeffM2501`	`that is who you should ask help from`
`22:18.16`	`CoolerEthan`	`i called him and left a message`
`22:18.27`	`CoolerEthan`	`haha hopefully ill have a server in the near future`
`22:19.01`	`JeffM2501`	`best of luck`
`22:19.43`	`CBG`	`So JeffM2501: You mentioned some CDs for FC4, to minimize downloads?`
`22:20.00`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, yeah`
`22:20.03`	`JeffM2501`	`all of them`
`22:20.25`	`CBG`	`Where can I get such CDs?`
`22:20.43`	`JeffM2501`	`http://fedora.redhat.com/download/`
`22:20.57`	`JeffM2501`	`are you doing this on your mac or your a PC?`
`22:21.16`	`CBG`	`my mac...`
`22:21.28`	`CBG`	`but don't you mean physical CDs?`
`22:21.39`	`JeffM2501`	`where are you installing linux to?`
`22:21.41`	`JeffM2501`	`your mac?`
`22:21.44`	`JeffM2501`	`or onto a PC?`
`22:21.50`	`CBG`	`A partition on my mac.`
`22:21.51`	`JeffM2501`	`I don't care where you download them from`
`22:21.53`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
`22:22.00`	`JeffM2501`	`there are only a couple linuxes that will work on a mac`
`22:22.03`	`CBG`	`I don;t want to download them! :(`
`22:22.08`	`JeffM2501`	`linspire is NOT one of them`
`22:22.15`	`CBG`	`Oh. bummer.`
`22:22.20`	`JeffM2501`	`http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/4/ppc/iso/`
`22:22.25`	`JeffM2501`	`FC4 is`
`22:22.45`	`CBG`	`Wait...`
`22:22.56`	`CBG`	`what were these "CDs" you talked about?`
`22:23.13`	`JeffM2501`	`that ling`
`22:23.15`	`JeffM2501`	`link`
`22:23.23`	`JeffM2501`	`is a link to the ISOs for the CDs`
`22:23.26`	`JeffM2501`	`you get them`
`22:23.27`	`JeffM2501`	`burn them`
`22:23.28`	`CBG`	`I dont want to have to download the whole kazillion MBs.`
`22:23.34`	`JeffM2501`	`oh`
`22:23.37`	`JeffM2501`	`I was talking about debian`
`22:23.39`	`JeffM2501`	`not FC4`
`22:23.46`	`CBG`	`eh`
`22:23.53`	`JeffM2501`	`let me see if they have a PPC debian net install`
`22:24.25`	`JeffM2501`	`http://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/`
`22:24.32`	`JeffM2501`	`go down to the`
`22:24.33`	`JeffM2501`	`Official netinst images for the "stable" release`
`22:24.41`	`ToughShooter`	`Ask someone who has better connection. When I need really big stuff I use my universities network ;)`
`22:24.42`	`JeffM2501`	`and pick the powerpc one`
`22:24.59`	`JeffM2501`	`debian net install only takes about an hour off normal broaband`
`22:25.25`	`CBG`	`ToughShooter: no such person exists in my crappy little life. :)`
`22:25.34`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, do you have the empty space on your disk allready, like do you have the space for it to make paritions?`
`22:25.37`	`CBG`	`JeffM2501: so, what do I do?`
`22:25.40`	`JeffM2501`	`or do you expect it to resise your partion`
`22:26.07`	`JeffM2501`	`you answer my question :)`
`22:26.16`	`CBG`	`JeffM2501: I don't know... I was expecting to find a readme when I downloaded which would help me...`
`22:26.21`	`JeffM2501`	`LOL`
`22:26.25`	`CBG`	`I know how to partition my HD, but not if I need to.`
`22:26.34`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah it is`
`22:26.40`	`CBG`	`Oh...`
`22:26.43`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, ok do you understand what you are doing?`
`22:26.53`	`CBG`	`Which bit?`
`22:26.56`	`JeffM2501`	`linux does not install into the mac OS or partions AT ALL`
`22:27.00`	`JeffM2501`	`all of it`
`22:27.10`	`JeffM2501`	`do you know what you are saying when you want to install linux?`
`22:27.15`	`CBG`	`oh.`
`22:27.19`	`JeffM2501`	`you are going to partion your hard drive`
`22:27.27`	`JeffM2501`	`so that part of it is for use by linux`
`22:27.31`	`JeffM2501`	`and can NOT be used by OSX`
`22:27.35`	`CBG`	`I wanted to make a small partiotion of my ibooks internal HD on which I would install Linux.`
`22:27.44`	`JeffM2501`	`ok what you have to do first is`
`22:28.11`	`JeffM2501`	`change your existing partions so there is empty space on the disk ( space with no partions ) that linux can use`
`22:28.18`	`JeffM2501`	`you do NOT make a partion in OSX for linux to use`
`22:28.24`	`CBG`	`you just said it was too risky...?`
`22:28.30`	`JeffM2501`	`resizing them is yes`
`22:28.40`	`JeffM2501`	`best to wipe the drive and make partions from scratch`
`22:28.46`	`CBG`	`oh man...`
`22:28.47`	`JeffM2501`	`how big is your disk?`
`22:28.53`	`CBG`	`I'll need to backup first then.`
`22:28.55`	`CBG`	`30GB`
`22:29.03`	`JeffM2501`	`how much did you want to leave for linux?`
`22:29.23`	`CBG`	`not a lot, its only to tinker with`
`22:29.28`	`CBG`	`lemme see how much I have spare`
`22:29.29`	`ToughShooter`	`CBG: You didn't planned to make a backup first? :o`
`22:29.30`	`JeffM2501`	`5 gigs?`
`22:29.32`	`JeffM2501`	`10 gigs?`
`22:29.40`	`CBG`	`5GB would be ok.`
`22:29.43`	`JeffM2501`	`ok`
`22:29.51`	`JeffM2501`	`then you need to wipe your OSX disk`
`22:29.55`	`CBG`	`ToughShooter: I didnt know partitioning was risky.`
`22:29.59`	`JeffM2501`	`repartion it with a 25 gig partion`
`22:30.05`	`JeffM2501`	`get OSX and all your data back on there`
`22:30.06`	`CBG`	`oh man...`
`22:30.12`	`JeffM2501`	`then boot from that CD`
`22:30.22`	`CBG`	`sigh`
`22:30.23`	`JeffM2501`	`and have it partion the 5 gigs of free space for linux`
`22:30.35`	`CBG`	`would it be a lot easier if I bought an external HD?`
`22:30.37`	`JeffM2501`	`that is why I asked if you understood what you were doing :)`
`22:30.49`	`CBG`	`Thanks.! :\|`
`22:30.49`	`JeffM2501`	`yes it is allways best to put linux on it's own drive in any dual boot situation`
`22:31.25`	`JeffM2501`	`smallest you can find new is 40`
`22:31.29`	`ToughShooter`	`So you can switch systems using open firmware before booting`
`22:31.40`	`CBG`	`eh? :S`
`22:31.51`	`JeffM2501`	`you have to tell your mac what OS to boot from`
`22:31.57`	`CBG`	`lol... remember i know very little about this. im really diving right in.`
`22:32.00`	`JeffM2501`	`that is not a thing apple realy had in mind :)`
`22:32.03`	`ToughShooter`	`Don't ya know what happens when you press alt when starting?`
`22:32.06`	`CBG`	`ahh.`
`22:32.14`	`CBG`	`ToughShooter: I guess not.`
`22:32.17`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, running linux isn't the simplest thing on a mac`
`22:32.25`	`CBG`	`I know.`
`22:32.28`	`JeffM2501`	`apple didn't realy set it up to be easy`
`22:32.34`	`CBG`	`Starting up is. ;)`
`22:32.42`	`JeffM2501`	`starting up to OSX is easy`
`22:32.55`	`CBG`	`Yeah. ;)`
`22:33.10`	`CBG`	`Like I said, im diving in here...`
`22:33.16`	`ToughShooter`	`CBG: You can then choose with system is booted from a hard disk (two system on one disk are not seen in general)`
`22:33.18`	`JeffM2501`	`best to start with linux on a crap PC`
`22:33.59`	`ToughShooter`	`s/with/which`
`22:34.03`	`CBG`	`A crap PC will cost > than small HD.`
`22:34.37`	`JeffM2501`	`where will you put said small HD?`
`22:34.50`	`JeffM2501`	`laptops don't have extra IDE ports`
`22:35.00`	`JeffM2501`	`that means your geting a firewire enclosure and all that`
`22:35.09`	`CBG`	`IDE port?`
`22:35.14`	`CBG`	`I would use FireWire.`
`22:35.18`	`CBG`	`a problem?`
`22:35.29`	`JeffM2501`	`that means you have to get a firewire drive enclousre`
`22:35.35`	`JeffM2501`	`raw hard drives don't use firewire`
`22:35.47`	`JeffM2501`	`the external box converts IDE to firewire`
`22:36.00`	`CBG`	`sheesh.`
`22:36.11`	`JeffM2501`	`figure you'll spend about 100$`
`22:36.12`	`ToughShooter`	`They use ATA/SATA,SATA2 as far as I know`
`22:36.13`	`JeffM2501`	`USD`
`22:36.29`	`CBG`	`this isnt like, 1, 2, 3. 1. download linux, 2 partition HD, 3, install linux on partition and go..`
`22:36.33`	`JeffM2501`	`there is also scsi but that is mor rare`
`22:36.49`	`JeffM2501`	`CBG, if the disk was blank, sure`
`22:36.58`	`JeffM2501`	`and all you wanted was linux`
`22:38.13`	`CBG`	`so I need a HD Enclosure too?`
`22:38.28`	`CBG`	`possibly like http://linitx.com/product_info.php?products_id=518 ?`
`22:39.14`	`CBG`	`and just to clarify: Linspire will NOT work on my mac AT ALL?`
`22:42.35`	`JeffM2501`	`linspire is an X86 distor`
`22:42.40`	`JeffM2501`	`distro`
`22:42.48`	`CBG`	`ah, so in a few years it will. :)`
`22:42.58`	`CBG`	`(not THIs mac, obviously...)`
`22:43.02`	`JeffM2501`	`that is a drive encousre for a laptop drive`
`22:43.11`	`JeffM2501`	`they sell them together offten too`
`22:43.23`	`ToughShooter`	`This one would not work with your Mac`
`22:43.52`	`CBG`	`but it is the right sort of thing?`
`22:43.56`	`ToughShooter`	`It uses USB so you need a driver but they don't have a driver for Mac OS X`
`22:44.03`	`JeffM2501`	`ToughShooter, READ`
`22:44.06`	`JeffM2501`	`it uses firewire too`
`22:44.19`	`JeffM2501`	`" or 1394 combo"`
`22:44.33`	`JeffM2501`	`OS support: PC win 98/SE/ME/2000/XP`
`22:44.34`	`JeffM2501`	`MAC 8.6/9.X or Higher`
`22:45.11`	`CBG`	`Thats me! :)`
`22:45.50`	`JeffM2501`	`many places sell them wiht a drive in them too`
`22:46.15`	`JeffM2501`	`you won't find one smaller then a 40 tho`
`22:46.17`	`ToughShooter`	`Hmm, I didn't know that "1394 combo" is firewire`
`22:46.37`	`JeffM2501`	`ieee1394 IS firewire`
`22:46.45`	`JeffM2501`	`it is it's techincal name`
`22:47.00`	`JeffM2501`	`firewire is a marketing name, that some company came up with to make it sound cooler`
`22:47.11`	`JeffM2501`	`so that people would only buy things from them`
`22:49.11`	`JeffM2501`	`on that site CBG there isn't much price diff from 20 to 40 gig drives`
`22:49.19`	`JeffM2501`	`but that's common tho`
`22:49.29`	`JeffM2501`	`there is a min cost for a hard drive, regardless of size`
`22:49.36`	`JeffM2501`	`the cost of the metal box and the electronics`
`22:50.14`	`ToughShooter`	`~bzfrag ToughShooter for not being able to read`
`22:50.17`	`ibot`	`ACTION tries to kill ToughShooter for not being able to read, but finds the shield flag`
`22:50.27`	`JeffM2501`	`you may want to go with a 3.5 inch one`
`22:50.31`	`JeffM2501`	`as the drives can be cheaper`
`22:50.38`	`JeffM2501`	`and larger`
`22:51.11`	`JeffM2501`	`like on that site an 80 gig 3.5 inch is 37, where a 2.5 inch was only 40 gigs for that price`
`22:51.24`	`JeffM2501`	`tho the enclosure is a tad more`
`22:52.11`	`Tupone`	`5 GByte? you run out of space shortly as you install things. Better a new one. I guess this PPC based distribution will fit perfectly with Mac bootloader`
`22:52.26`	`Tupone`	`s/this/these/`
`22:52.39`	`JeffM2501`	`Tupone, it was just an example size`
`22:52.57`	`JeffM2501`	`I'd not install linux on anything less then a 40`
`22:53.00`	`JeffM2501`	`if you were gonna use it`
`22:53.09`	`Tupone`	`yeah, but better a dedicated driver, or at least 10/15 Gbyte`
`22:53.30`	`JeffM2501`	`that's what' he's looking into`
`22:53.36`	`JeffM2501`	`a firewire external`
`22:53.39`	`JeffM2501`	`he's on a laptop`
`22:53.40`	`Tupone`	`I use more then half of my 60`
`22:54.32`	`JeffM2501`	`heh 60`
`22:54.39`	`Tupone`	`on laptop`
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`22:56.29`	`Tupone`	`I saw this new laptop with 1TByte of quantum/optic disk. I shall buy it. (j/k)`
`22:56.53`	`JeffM2501`	`the /. one?`
`22:56.59`	`JeffM2501`	`it had 2tb IIRC`
`22:57.03`	`JeffM2501`	`and 1tb of ram`
`22:57.30`	`blast007`	`and like 256MB of memory for the CPU`
`22:57.36`	`Tupone`	`great :) HD is only 6000$`
`22:58.02`	`JeffM2501`	`you can get 2tb now for 800$`
`22:58.06`	`JeffM2501`	`easy`
`22:59.11`	`Tupone`	`hmm, sure? I think I need x2 money here, if price are not changed so much`
`22:59.19`	`Tupone`	`x3 I meant`
`22:59.28`	`blast007`	`only $300 for one 400GB drive`
`22:59.42`	`JeffM2501`	`250 gig drives are only 100$`
`22:59.46`	`JeffM2501`	`I just got one`
`22:59.52`	`JeffM2501`	`8 = 2tb`
`22:59.57`	`blast007`	`:)`
`22:59.59`	`Tupone`	`ohh, price are higher here :(`
`23:00.07`	`Tupone`	`or was`
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`23:00.46`	`JeffM2501`	`SATA 500's are like 350$`
`23:01.04`	`JeffM2501`	`http://www.pricewatch.com/m-26.htm`
`23:01.43`	`Tupone`	`I need to change mobo too, to get these capacity :(`
`23:01.50`	`JeffM2501`	`what CPU do you have?`
`23:02.22`	`Tupone`	`on desktop Duron 1GHz :( laptop amd64 3400+`
`23:02.36`	`JeffM2501`	`what mobo?`
`23:02.37`	`Tupone`	`time to change`
`23:02.53`	`JeffM2501`	`the durron 1 gigers overclock to 1.3 very nicely`
`23:02.59`	`Tupone`	`I don't remember now :( A chinese one`
`23:03.08`	`JeffM2501`	`all mobos are from china :)`
`23:03.42`	`JeffM2501`	`I'm going to buy my new mob and CPU after work today`
`23:03.46`	`Tupone`	`AGPx4 and I have a board AGPx8 :(`
`23:04.12`	`Tupone`	`for what CPU ?`
`23:04.26`	`JeffM2501`	`AMD 64 3800 X2`
`23:04.39`	`Tupone`	`X2 ? double core ?`
`23:04.42`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`23:04.58`	`JeffM2501`	`they have a good deal on a PCI-E SLI mobo too`
`23:05.05`	`JeffM2501`	`so it shoudl be nice`
`23:05.10`	`Tupone`	`price there ?`
`23:05.16`	`JeffM2501`	`the CPU is 379`
`23:05.22`	`JeffM2501`	`the mobo will be 119`
`23:05.35`	`JeffM2501`	`the video cards 90 each`
`23:05.41`	`JeffM2501`	`and then 100 for ram`
`23:05.53`	`Tupone`	`how many PCI-e ?`
`23:05.57`	`JeffM2501`	`2`
`23:06.10`	`JeffM2501`	`dual 6600s in SLI mode`
`23:06.52`	`Tupone`	`what OS over that AMD64 ?`
`23:07.04`	`JeffM2501`	`at least windows`
`23:07.17`	`JeffM2501`	`I'll have to see how well linux works on it`
`23:07.19`	`Tupone`	`do you need XP to get smp ?`
`23:07.33`	`JeffM2501`	`why would I use anything other them XP?`
`23:07.45`	`*** part/#bzflag CoolerEthan (n=DanC310@c-24-62-42-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)`
`23:08.06`	`JeffM2501`	`yes there is a way to install XP and have it do SMP`
`23:08.07`	`Tupone`	`Just asking if xp support it. Could be professional or limited`
`23:08.17`	`JeffM2501`	`ohh I'd neever do home`
`23:08.22`	`JeffM2501`	`pro coorporate all the way`
`23:08.57`	`Tupone`	`you still do not get 64 bit support on windows, I guess you need vista for those.`
`23:09.09`	`Tupone`	`just asking, I'm not sure`
`23:09.21`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`23:09.24`	`JeffM2501`	`but it's no biggie`
`23:09.54`	`JeffM2501`	`I'll probably have to redo ubantu tho to get it A64`
`23:10.08`	`Tupone`	`your test with gentoo ?`
`23:10.08`	`JeffM2501`	`since the last one was just 32`
`23:10.19`	`Tupone`	`aborted?`
`23:10.28`	`JeffM2501`	`I didn't know what to pick, and I wasn't 100% sure it wasn't going to screw my windows intall up`
`23:10.40`	`JeffM2501`	`so now I'll have my existing main machine to test with :)(`
`23:10.59`	`JeffM2501`	`and once i'm happy I know how to install gentoo on that, then I'll do it on the new one`
`23:11.57`	`Tupone`	`ah ok. Well, with gentoo installer is a risky for me. I prefer to know what I do. When lot of people test it, could be it is time to use :) No risk now. I can't get a backup easily`
`23:12.31`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah when I have a crap machien I wont' be as worried about it and can experiment`
`23:12.46`	`ChipX86`	`there's always VMs`
`23:12.56`	`JeffM2501`	`I think it'd be cool to have an optimised linux on the new one tho`
`23:13.01`	`Tupone`	`What VM? windows one?`
`23:13.10`	`JeffM2501`	`ChipX86, seting up computers is easer for me :)`
`23:13.17`	`ChipX86`	`you've never tried VMware then ;)`
`23:13.26`	`JeffM2501`	`no I can't say I have`
`23:13.30`	`Tupone`	`VMware is at some price`
`23:13.32`	`JeffM2501`	`I hear it's really cool`
`23:13.38`	`ChipX86`	`it really is, but I'm of course biased`
`23:13.48`	`JeffM2501`	`heh`
`23:13.54`	`JeffM2501`	`all the vmware people`
`23:13.56`	`ChipX86`	`Tupone: some price?`
`23:14.07`	`Tupone`	`you have to pay license`
`23:14.20`	`ChipX86`	`you can get it free or cheap if you know how`
`23:14.22`	`ChipX86`	`legally`
`23:14.29`	`Tupone`	`for some month`
`23:14.32`	`ChipX86`	`no`
`23:14.35`	`ChipX86`	`permanent license`
`23:14.41`	`JeffM2501`	`Tupone, he works there, listen to him :)`
`23:15.07`	`*** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (n=frank@p548198A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)`
`23:15.21`	`ChipX86`	`we'll have another public beta in time as well, if you just want to play with it for free`
`23:15.34`	`JeffM2501`	`scanlime works there too`
`23:15.36`	`ChipX86`	`yeah`
`23:15.46`	`JeffM2501`	`you 2 in the same dept?`
`23:15.51`	`ChipX86`	`nope, but we're close by`
`23:15.54`	`JeffM2501`	`cool`
`23:15.57`	`JeffM2501`	`it's fun to work with friends`
`23:16.06`	`ChipX86`	`well, we're both in Hosted Solutions. He works in the device team, though. I work on the UI team`
`23:16.10`	`ChipX86`	`yeah`
`23:16.19`	`ChipX86`	`this place rocks so much. I wouldn't want to go anywhere else`
`23:16.42`	`JeffM2501`	`what if I become rich, and wanted to hire you to make a space shuttle?`
`23:16.51`	`JeffM2501`	`with purple_cow and scanlime`
`23:16.57`	`JeffM2501`	`and like hot lady welders`
`23:17.10`	`Tupone`	`I tested it. We needed some application that unfortunately run only on windows. Our club is linuXclub, so we do not allow that. VMware could be a good compromise.`
`23:17.30`	`ChipX86`	`Tupone: we just opened the source to a bunch of the cool widgets we use in our UI`
`23:17.52`	`JeffM2501`	`hot lady welders, and free fresca`
`23:17.53`	`ChipX86`	`JeffM2501: they treat us and pay us too well around here`
`23:17.56`	`JeffM2501`	`as much as you can drink`
`23:18.04`	`ChipX86`	`they give us alcohol`
`23:18.11`	`JeffM2501`	`cool`
`23:18.17`	`ChipX86`	`they're building us a soccer field`
`23:18.27`	`JeffM2501`	`how many people in the company?`
`23:18.35`	`ChipX86`	`I think around 1200 or so now, maybe more`
`23:18.40`	`JeffM2501`	`that's a fair number`
`23:19.07`	`ChipX86`	`http://osiris.chipx86.com/photos/vmware/outside/IMG_2223.jpg <-- that's where we work`
`23:19.24`	`JeffM2501`	`cool`
`23:19.33`	`JeffM2501`	`no hot lady welders tho huh?`
`23:19.40`	`ChipX86`	`nope`
`23:19.44`	`ChipX86`	`not sure my girlfriend would approve of that`
`23:19.53`	`JeffM2501`	`what if SHE was a welder?`
`23:19.55`	`JeffM2501`	`all sweaty`
`23:20.35`	`JeffM2501`	`tho I'd bet any job is better then doing these blasted VMMs`
`23:22.38`	`JeffM2501`	`I wonder what windows app a linux user group could need?`
`23:23.55`	`*** join/#bzflag orchid (n=bzgirl@unaffiliated/orchid)`
`23:23.55`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+v orchid] by ChanServ`
`23:24.31`	`*** join/#bzflag triclops (n=triclops@202.59.109.121)`
`23:24.33`	`brlcad`	`hey, it's a ChipX86`
`23:24.39`	`ChipX86`	`hey, it's me!`
`23:24.56`	`brlcad`	`we're you supposed to make it down to LA? :)`
`23:25.07`	`*** join/#bzflag wizart (n=wizart@dsl-084-058-136-226.arcor-ip.net)`
`23:25.07`	`ChipX86`	`when?`
`23:25.22`	`ChipX86`	`oh, with scanline and everyone`
`23:25.23`	`ChipX86`	`yeah`
`23:25.25`	`brlcad`	`yeah`
`23:25.30`	`ChipX86`	`didn't happen :/`
`23:25.36`	`brlcad`	`wiggled out of it, eh?`
`23:25.51`	`brlcad`	`missed some good brew`
`23:25.54`	`brlcad`	`and food :)`
`23:26.10`	`JeffM2501`	`did anyone have a beer at all?`
`23:26.18`	`JeffM2501`	`I know I didn't`
`23:26.20`	`brlcad`	`well, martini brew :)`
`23:26.28`	`JeffM2501`	`those sour apple ones kick ass`
`23:26.30`	`brlcad`	`hmm`
`23:26.39`	`brlcad`	`what was that wierd one I got`
`23:26.42`	`brlcad`	`that was yummy`
`23:26.53`	`brlcad`	`oh yeah, a scooby snack!`
`23:27.27`	`JeffM2501`	`how was it?`
`23:27.35`	`brlcad`	`it was good`
`23:27.47`	`brlcad`	`better than a dog biscuit even`
`23:28.52`	`JeffM2501`	`heh`
`23:32.14`	`JeffM2501`	`hmmmm wonder if 450w PS is enough for the sucker`
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`23:43.36`	`blast007`	`JeffM2501: according to an article I'm reading the 6600 GT might use as much as 50 watts, but I think they overclocked it too`
`23:44.17`	`blast007`	`ah, seems they tested it both at it's normal speeds, and overclocked`
`23:47.46`	`JeffM2501`	`nnot geting a GT`
`23:47.50`	`JeffM2501`	`tho I will have 2 of them`
`23:48.10`	`JeffM2501`	`well I'll see what a 500 or a 550 costs`
`23:48.16`	`JeffM2501`	`worst it can do is pop em :)`
`23:48.28`	`JeffM2501`	`but they are ony 90$ each`
`23:49.15`	`blast007`	`:)`
`23:49.25`	`CIA-2`	`BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10BZFlagG3D/tools/mapedit/vc71/mapedit.ico: awww an icon`
`23:49.44`	`JeffM2501`	`http://www.giga-byte.com/VGA/Products/Products_GV-NX66128DP.htm`
`23:49.48`	`JeffM2501`	`that's the cards I'm geting for now`
`23:49.53`	`JeffM2501`	`may get better ones later`
`23:50.42`	`blast007`	`they're still some nice cards, even just one`
`23:50.51`	`JeffM2501`	`yeah`
`23:51.08`	`JeffM2501`	`tho I'd like to have dual 6800 ultras`
`23:51.17`	`blast007`	`hehe :)`
`23:51.33`	`JeffM2501`	`they were in the shoping cart at one point`
`23:52.22`	`JeffM2501`	`chiefvalue had some refurbs for a good price`

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