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| 00:50.10 | Skram | hey all |
| 00:50.18 | Skram | im new to the game.. anyone want to play? |
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| 09:00.28 | shorty114 | ~spell coincidence |
| 09:00.53 | CBG | It is. :) |
| 09:01.38 | shorty114 | yeah, wasn't sure if it was -ence or -ance |
| 09:02.07 | shorty114 | ~gvim |
| 09:02.07 | ibot | gvim: see vim-gtk |
| 09:02.12 | shorty114 | ~vim-gtk |
| 09:02.13 | ibot | rumour has it, vim-gtk is vim with gtk+, it looks pretty in X. Colors are even configurable! and it does source color coding, or if gvim silently refuses to start and goes into text mode, check out http://bugs.debian.org/119808 |
| 09:04.27 | BearPerson | yeah |
| 09:04.41 | ruskie | :) |
| 09:04.48 | ruskie | nano and diakonos all the way |
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| 09:17.22 | meacan | morning birdie |
| 09:17.53 | Birdie | hey meacan |
| 09:28.10 | ruskie | go fly Birdie |
| 09:31.29 | Birdie | !lart ruskie |
| 09:38.09 | ruskie | lol |
| 09:39.26 | shorty114 | ~spell chared |
| 09:39.27 | shorty114 | charred |
| 09:39.45 | ruskie | lol |
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| 10:20.43 | meacan | Am i the only one getting blank pages from my.bzflag.org/league ? |
| 10:21.00 | shorty114 | i get a league page |
| 10:21.02 | shorty114 | *the |
| 10:21.55 | meacan | hmm |
| 10:22.30 | shorty114 | try clearing your cache |
| 10:22.37 | shorty114 | or shift-f5 ing |
| 10:22.39 | meacan | firefox really dont like me |
| 10:22.42 | shorty114 | (super duper refresh) |
| 10:22.44 | meacan | already tried it |
| 10:23.09 | shorty114 | oh, cool, menotume made the league system a SF project |
| 10:23.36 | meacan | i know |
| 10:23.44 | shorty114 | i didn't |
| 10:23.48 | meacan | look at the dev's of the web-league, you'll find a Dennis M. Pedersen |
| 10:23.57 | meacan | then look at my hostmask, and take a wild guess :) |
| 10:26.52 | meacan | But the code is still more-or-less bzflag-specific. Doubt there will be a broader userbase before its de-bzflag'ified |
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| 10:27.02 | ruskie | lo _Manu_ |
| 10:27.23 | shorty114 | hi manu |
| 10:27.29 | _Manu_ | hi! |
| 10:30.53 | BearPerson | greetings |
| 10:35.36 | rkr | Boo! |
| 11:08.42 | *** join/#bzflag option (macppc@dialup-165.86.221.203.acc50-stge-pth.comindico.com.au) |
| 11:09.12 | option | hi all. |
| 11:10.17 | ruskie | rkr, what OS you running? |
| 11:10.41 | option | a working one ^_^ |
| 11:10.49 | option | I wish my was |
| 11:15.13 | rkr | ruskie: NetBSD. |
| 11:15.17 | ruskie | ahhh |
| 11:15.24 | ruskie | and what was before? |
| 11:15.38 | rkr | A mixture of different versions of NetBSD. (^& |
| 11:16.05 | rkr | I started running -current development on the laptop maybe a year and a half ago, or 2 years ago... |
| 11:16.35 | rkr | I was updating kernels more frequently than userland. |
| 11:17.08 | rkr | Then about a year ago, -current's if_pcmcia_ne.c (whatever; the PCMCIA instance of the NE2000 ethernet driver) was reorganized in the kernel. |
| 11:17.26 | rkr | The new driver doesn't like my card. |
| 11:19.16 | option | maybe you have to use the old kernel |
| 11:19.49 | rkr | Well, if you use an older kernel, you kind of ahve to use an older userland, too. (^& |
| 11:20.17 | ruskie | yeah... which kinda sucks imho |
| 11:20.40 | rkr | I was thinking about trying a 1.6 NetBSD install, but it seems that the 2.0 release (released late last year, but branched from -current over a year ago) still has the old driver. |
| 11:22.01 | rkr | (I also toyed with the idea of dropping the old driver into the new kernel. I wasn't sure how thorny that would be...one of the featured touted for NetBSD is that drivers are abstracted to a large degree so that they can be written without regard to which platform/bus they are attached to. So reverting the PCMCIA version of the driver might not have worked so well. It would also have left me running a somewhat deviant OS...(^&) |
| 11:22.03 | option | Is that a bad thing. I know I love to have the latest kernel, kind of a nice feeling, but it usually doesn't make that much of a difference. |
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| 11:22.38 | option | I'm know switching to gentoo |
| 11:22.43 | option | now |
| 11:22.46 | rkr | It depends. I wanted to keep the laptop somewhat up to date. But I have a couple of servers running NetBSD 1.6. |
| 11:22.48 | Tupone | great |
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| 11:23.24 | option | what made you choose NetBSD over the other dists? |
| 11:23.50 | _Manu_ | Tupone, hola! no voice? :) |
| 11:23.55 | rkr | I was considering a GNU/LINUX distribution, too. But: (a) I like BSD userland. (b) I was having trouble getting a good recommendation for a comparably light LINUX. (This is an old laptop; I really don't want to saddle it with KDE, etc...) |
| 11:25.19 | rkr | It's not an "other" dist. It's a complete OS. (^& (The term "dist" or "distro" is, as I gather it, simply a LINUX kernel with some variation of userland. NetBSD is a complete OS; the kernel is their own, and they maintain a branch of everything else... Minor nit-pick about terminology.) |
| 11:25.45 | option | Yes I can understand that, I have an old 486dx 16megs ram and 1.2gb hard drive and I would love to put linux on it, but since I have used redhat aka fedora core for much of my linux experince, I have a feeling it wouldn't be able to handle linux, unless it was just as a console lapbox. |
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| 11:26.48 | Tupone_ | hola _Manu_ .. no voice yet |
| 11:26.50 | option | I"m thinking debian woody for the laptop, and gentoo for my desktop |
| 11:26.51 | rkr | What made me pick NetBSD..? Probably the fact that it made portability one of its goals. One source tree compiles the entire set of (currently) some 50 or so different platforms. In and of itself, that's just a factoid---but as a programmer, I've come to greatly respect portability is a way to make code clean; the more narrow your target, the easier it is to get away with hacks (and the more tempting). (^& |
| 11:27.31 | option | Yes, I can see that. |
| 11:27.59 | _Manu_ | Tupone_, really voice is not very usefull here.. ;) |
| 11:28.25 | option | I"m at the moment sticking debian on both of my apple power macs, and I shall use them as servers. Should be fun. |
| 11:28.40 | Tupone_ | option: debian woody ??? |
| 11:28.46 | rkr | (E.g., compare FreeBSD which ran pretty much exclusively on commodity PCs until recently, and even now only is branching out to a few high-end platforms. You can afford to be a bit sloppy about some things, because "everyone" has a multi-gigaherz CPU these days. NetBSD still runs on old VAXen, etc...(^&) |
| 11:29.11 | ruskie | sounds kinda nice... |
| 11:29.20 | ruskie | I dislike sloppy stuff... |
| 11:29.31 | rkr | I ran Debian at one point. Seemed nice enough...but I was already a BSD person so I never really ran Debian that much. |
| 11:29.40 | ruskie | prolly why I'm picky at what apps I use... |
| 11:29.41 | option | woody potatoe debian has strange names for its dists |
| 11:30.11 | Tupone_ | bt woody is now out of the security monitoring, I'd go with stable now |
| 11:30.15 | rkr | (Also tried SuSE and Mandrake when my AMD64 was still new. Have thought about trying Gentoo...) |
| 11:30.18 | uso | option: 16 mb ram is a bit less for X |
| 11:30.31 | _Manu_ | option, That's because they likes Toy Story.. heh |
| 11:30.43 | uso | but with a slim windows manager is should run |
| 11:31.19 | option | Yes uso, It will just be a console lapbox used for monitoring the servers. |
| 11:31.42 | option | both the apples will be headless (grabs his axe) |
| 11:31.51 | uso | have had a 486-box running until last year with 32 mb, no problem |
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| 11:32.03 | uso | package handling was a bit slow ;) |
| 11:32.13 | option | I bet :) |
| 11:32.18 | rkr | (^& |
| 11:32.37 | rkr | Slowest machine I have around here is this laptop that I just updated. |
| 11:32.57 | option | it runs virus 95 pretty well. |
| 11:33.11 | uso | lol, 95 |
| 11:33.24 | option | :) |
| 11:33.34 | rkr | 233MHz plain Pentium (*not* Pentium II). 128MB RAM, 4GB disk I've mostly used it as a portable way to hook into a WIN32 network I sometimes deal with. |
| 11:34.01 | option | sounds cool rkr |
| 11:34.32 | rkr | (I have a "full" install, including X; use twm (whee; (^&; favorite window manager), and tossed samba 3.0 and GNU EMACS on it...) |
| 11:35.05 | rkr | (twm is actually nice, IMHO, if you tweak the ~/.twmrc; the default .twmrc is rather pointless, IMHO...) |
| 11:35.15 | option | I wonder if X can be made lighter. |
| 11:35.28 | option | I use xfce4 |
| 11:35.36 | rkr | (It's also, despite being disparaged as a "bloated" window manager, in the light-middleweight division.) |
| 11:35.44 | ruskie | e17 here |
| 11:35.48 | option | but really the monster is X. |
| 11:35.58 | ruskie | option, there is WIP to make a lighter X |
| 11:36.05 | ruskie | a few WIPs acctually |
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| 11:37.08 | option | ruskie, say I wanted a very basic X with opengl support, but more or less everything else left out. (I wont bzflag to really fly) would it be possible. |
| 11:37.24 | ruskie | option, at the moment nope |
| 11:37.35 | ruskie | option, the best you can get is an ogl-less X server |
| 11:37.37 | option | darm |
| 11:37.55 | *** join/#bzflag [brad] (brad2901@cm-84.118.229.169.chello.no) |
| 11:38.27 | rkr | A bzflag console? (^& |
| 11:38.28 | option | well I guess at least I could compile it for my platform. |
| 11:38.42 | *** join/#bzflag flo_demonn (~5578020e@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 11:38.57 | option | No this is for my desktop machine (keitaro) |
| 11:39.36 | rkr | For your main desktop, do you really need to pair down X? |
| 11:39.38 | option | It would be difficult to play on a powermac, especially a headless one. :) |
| 11:39.49 | uso | should port bzflag to the framebuffer console ;) |
| 11:40.19 | rkr | (I have an old 800MHz Athlon box sitting by my exercise bike; it serves double duty as my network file server and as a movie-player for when I'm on the boke...) |
| 11:40.30 | ruskie | uso, I thought sdl is possible to run in fb |
| 11:40.39 | option | :) |
| 11:40.53 | option | man bzflag would fly in a console. |
| 11:41.12 | option | no X overhead, or X managers. |
| 11:41.24 | ruskie | to bad I hate fb |
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| 11:41.47 | option | :( |
| 11:41.50 | uso | i don't think X is really the major problem, the libs you need for most applications are rather a ressource problem |
| 11:42.11 | uso | gtk, not to speak about gnome or kde |
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| 11:42.51 | uso | efl? |
| 11:42.58 | option | I have simple athlon xp 2400 (1.6gz) and it does ok at playing bzflag. I just wish I could get a few more frames out of it. |
| 11:43.05 | rkr | You don't need GNOME or KDE to play bzflag, though. (^& |
| 11:43.15 | ruskie | uso, enlightenment fundation libraries |
| 11:43.25 | ruskie | well running bzflag in X alone isn't hard... |
| 11:43.27 | rkr | And you certainly don't need GNOME or KDE to run X. (Though you do need some of the GNOMish libraries, alas...) |
| 11:43.33 | ruskie | jsut make it your wm :) |
| 11:43.35 | uso | oh, enlightenment |
| 11:43.42 | option | Yeah xfce4 is good |
| 11:43.45 | rkr | You can make an xterm your wm, too. |
| 11:43.49 | ruskie | yup |
| 11:43.56 | ruskie | uso, e17 :) |
| 11:44.00 | rkr | That's actually what I do from my .xinitrc so that I can change window managers without quitting X. |
| 11:44.02 | option | gnome and kde are like elephants. |
| 11:44.48 | rkr | (I went through a phase where I tried a bunch of WM's before settling back to twm. Never made twm my "session" process, though, so i can still exit twm anytime without losing X...) |
| 11:45.06 | option | I wonder if you would get anymore performance just with xterm as the manager. |
| 11:45.07 | uso | i don't use them, but more and more applications are linked against gnome or kde libs, at least against gdk libs |
| 11:45.17 | rkr | GNOME and KDE are like elephant herds. (^& |
| 11:45.46 | option | ^_~ not wrong. |
| 11:45.53 | rkr | Not much/any. A window manager doesn't involve itself much except in directing the focus and marshalling things like window sizes. |
| 11:46.03 | ruskie | uso, hmmm I cherry pick apps do not have stuff like that... |
| 11:46.17 | ruskie | other then abiword and gnumeric deps that's about it... |
| 11:46.36 | rkr | ruskie: It can be hard to avoid. I have use for image manipulation from time to time, so I end up with the GIMP. Kinda requirs GTK... |
| 11:46.52 | ruskie | well I like gtk |
| 11:46.59 | ruskie | almost all my apps are gtk |
| 11:46.59 | option | I wonder if recompiling X would make things smoother. |
| 11:47.18 | ruskie | and gtk isn't really that bad... |
| 11:47.24 | option | and make me a great player at the same time. :) |
| 11:47.25 | ruskie | compared to what qt and kde do... |
| 11:47.30 | rkr | XMMS requirs gtk+... |
| 11:47.40 | ruskie | xmms2 doesn't :) |
| 11:47.51 | option | I dont mind gtk+, but I hate qt |
| 11:48.04 | ruskie | I have qt exiled on my system |
| 11:48.15 | option | sometimes I think there is just too much choices |
| 11:48.16 | rkr | ruskie: (^& Maybe I'llhave to get after the pkgsrc people to import xmms2. |
| 11:48.21 | ruskie | it's nice to see when I'm installing and there's a dep on qt qt exiled skipping |
| 11:48.29 | menotume | qt is sllooooow |
| 11:48.34 | ruskie | rkr, I though it was already in |
| 11:48.36 | rkr | Ah, no qt here...not presently. |
| 11:48.44 | menotume | esp with images |
| 11:48.57 | rkr | ruskie: Um, maybe it is. It's certainly not the default ...pkgsrc/audio/xmms, thouugh. |
| 11:49.09 | ruskie | shouldn't be... |
| 11:49.18 | ruskie | it's a completly new design and all |
| 11:49.32 | ruskie | it's a server-client system |
| 11:49.35 | rkr | ruskie: It's not in .../audio nor in .../multimedia. |
| 11:49.45 | ruskie | hmmm |
| 11:49.50 | ruskie | there is a bsd user |
| 11:49.54 | ruskie | not sure what bsd he's using |
| 11:49.57 | ruskie | might be f |
| 11:50.08 | rkr | Well, the FreeBSD ports system is a bit bigger than pkgsrc. |
| 11:50.22 | rkr | There's also "pkgsrc-wip" ("Works In Progress") that has packages not ready for prime-time. |
| 11:50.24 | ruskie | maybe you could use that one? |
| 11:50.28 | rkr | I don't keep -wip around... |
| 11:50.35 | ruskie | how about fbs ports? |
| 11:50.38 | ruskie | +d |
| 11:50.49 | rkr | FreeBSD ports does not run on NetBSD (though pkgsrc runs on FreeBSD and others; (^&) |
| 11:50.51 | uso | you hardly can avoid gtk libs if you even need a few (modern) apps on X, but you can avoid gnome and kde if you select your apps |
| 11:51.01 | ruskie | yup |
| 11:51.04 | rkr | I don't think that i'm going to take my system down to run FreeBSD. |
| 11:51.09 | ruskie | though nothing for office use saddly... :( |
| 11:51.27 | menotume | DTRemenak: ping |
| 11:51.30 | ruskie | atleast with limited m$ compat... |
| 11:51.41 | rkr | (I did try running FreeBSD at one point; it couldn't find my sound hardware and theyh didn't have DRI going on the AMD64 at that time. (^&) |
| 11:52.14 | ruskie | rkr, for me it couldn't find my net nor sound card... |
| 11:52.21 | ruskie | and dri was rather nonexistant... |
| 11:52.25 | rkr | (^& |
| 11:52.41 | ruskie | so I kinda dumped it after a week |
| 11:52.48 | ruskie | atleastI gave it a try... |
| 11:52.51 | rkr | drI doesn't exist for NetBSD, either. But NetBSD has supported sound., etc., on this system, while FreeBSD couldn't even do that. (^& |
| 11:53.18 | rkr | I don't remember how long I kept the FreeBSD partition around. Probably about as long as the Mandrake partition. |
| 11:54.44 | rkr | (I overwote SuSE with Mandrake since SuSE couldn't configure X properly and SuSE hid the X config files...I could *see* it filling rectangular regions by *drawing*lines*. It was the slowest X I've ever seen. This was on an AMD64 3200 with an AGP 4x or 8x graphics card...) |
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| 11:55.22 | ruskie | lol |
| 11:55.39 | rkr | (In fairness, it was an XFree86 autoconfig problem, really. But because SuSE "protected" me from knowing where the X config files were, I couldn't fix it. on NetBSD, it was in /etc/XF86Config...(^&) |
| 11:55.57 | ruskie | :) |
| 11:56.17 | uso | btw, anywhere arround europe a pretty cool oasis today? here are again over 30°C, need a place to emigrate ;) |
| 11:56.49 | ruskie | should be cool enough up there... |
| 11:56.49 | rkr | (Oh, and the botched autoconfig was limited to 320x200 or maybe 640x480...(^&) |
| 11:57.33 | rkr | (You haven't lived until you've seen KDE run under those circumstances...) |
| 11:57.40 | uso | yeah, probably need to go that far north |
| 11:57.41 | option | Its darn cold here |
| 11:57.44 | option | about 12c |
| 11:57.50 | ruskie | option, where you? |
| 11:58.07 | uso | oops, 12? |
| 11:58.16 | rkr | 30C isn't that bad. |
| 11:58.23 | option | I"m in Perth Western Australia |
| 11:58.33 | ruskie | rkr, 30C is bad here... |
| 11:58.47 | ruskie | it's the temp we had for the past few days regulary... |
| 11:58.52 | uso | ah, option, you have winter ;) |
| 11:58.55 | ruskie | for me anythng above 25C is to much... |
| 11:58.59 | option | Yes we do. |
| 11:59.08 | rkr | here in Houston, we've been about 90, I think, or maybe a little warmer...my apartment's air conditioning was out for a few days last week and it got to 95 in here. (90 and 95 in F...) |
| 11:59.12 | uso | but then 12°C are not that cold |
| 11:59.17 | option | I dont mind the cold. I have my macs to keep my warm |
| 11:59.19 | menotume | Aribeth: ping |
| 11:59.32 | rkr | Maybe 35C/ |
| 12:00.23 | ruskie | hmmm |
| 12:00.24 | option | I feel for you rkr |
| 12:00.28 | ruskie | waaaaayyyy to hot... |
| 12:01.00 | option | If I was living here I would want a airconditioned spacesuit. |
| 12:01.08 | option | there :) |
| 12:01.17 | rkr | (^& |
| 12:01.31 | rkr | It's air conditioned. Just happened to not be working air conditioning for a few days... |
| 12:01.52 | rkr | It wasn't too bad if I opened the windows. |
| 12:01.53 | *** join/#bzflag creeperz (Meatwad@host-57-142-230-24.midco.net) |
| 12:01.57 | ruskie | gaaaahhhh air pressure dropping or rissing not sure which... I'm dead tired and I have a headache... |
| 12:02.10 | option | Yeah, but what happens when you go outside... |
| 12:02.21 | ruskie | you melt |
| 12:02.30 | option | I thought so. |
| 12:02.37 | rkr | if you don't have air conditioning and go outside, you say, "Ahhh...feels nice." |
| 12:02.57 | WolverineJrDUB | damn... this place is hot... |
| 12:03.08 | WolverineJrDUB | I'm going to die |
| 12:03.14 | rkr | We all are, some day. |
| 12:03.17 | option | So air conditioning makes less than a good bzflag player |
| 12:03.31 | option | I can only hope. |
| 12:04.01 | WolverineJrDUB | I'm lucky to have got the air conditioned... |
| 12:04.32 | option | I better watchout for you then.:) |
| 12:04.44 | option | *smiles* |
| 12:05.01 | rkr | The problem is that as soon as you turn your back on it, the air stops trying and gets out of shape again. |
| 12:05.14 | rkr | It's a fluid, after all, and never holds any particular shape. |
| 12:05.46 | ruskie | isn't it a gas? |
| 12:05.49 | ruskie | not a fluid |
| 12:06.10 | rkr | Liquid != gas, but gas and liquid are both fluid. |
| 12:06.17 | ruskie | true |
| 12:06.20 | option | Sometimes if feels like I'm breathing fluid. |
| 12:06.37 | rkr | As for air being liquid...depends on how good your air conditioning is. |
| 12:07.51 | rkr | option: Take your head out of the fish tank. You'll breathe easier. |
| 12:08.02 | ruskie | lol |
| 12:09.04 | option | I"ll try, but i like the fisheye perpective. |
| 12:09.25 | ruskie | :) |
| 12:10.39 | option | dam this virus has crashed again. |
| 12:11.06 | rkr | option: Virus == MS-Windows? |
| 12:11.18 | option | Of course. |
| 12:11.23 | option | :) |
| 12:11.36 | ruskie | :) |
| 12:11.49 | rkr | My sympathies. |
| 12:11.53 | option | I was use linux 98% of the time. |
| 12:11.59 | rkr | It's not even a very good virus... |
| 12:12.13 | option | No, its a badly written virus. |
| 12:12.45 | rkr | (I've got a Virus box, too, that I got for a short-term development project. I've considered using a virus-removal tool such as "format" on it...(^&) |
| 12:13.25 | *** join/#bzflag YAKarsten (karsten@C769f.c.strato-dslnet.de) |
| 12:13.51 | option | :) |
| 12:14.55 | rkr | Then again, it was nice to use it as a reference point when testing samba from my NetBSD laptop... |
| 12:16.02 | rkr | (I do some volunteering for a local radio show on human rights, and we do all of our recording at a local radio station which is infested with Microsoft...so I can take in a samba-equipped laptop to snarf our files off.) |
| 12:16.30 | option | That sounds really cool. |
| 12:16.46 | option | local radio often plays the best music |
| 12:17.00 | option | I"m not too keen on the comerical stuff. |
| 12:17.11 | option | or my spelling. :) |
| 12:17.23 | rkr | (The alternative is to burn a CD. Aside from being a waste of plastic, the local station's production room had some problems with their CD burner this last week.) |
| 12:18.54 | Tupone | do someone here still run bzflag 1.10 on linux with nvidia. It make linux un-reactive on exit |
| 12:18.56 | rkr | The station in question is community supported. We've got lots of unusual music and non-music programming...all of the sort that would never be allowed on a station owned by Clear Channel... |
| 12:20.44 | menotume | 1.10? are you kidding ? |
| 12:20.51 | rkr | Oh, Happy Birthday to Helen Keller today... |
| 12:20.52 | Tupone | nope ... |
| 12:21.01 | menotume | Tupone: I probably can |
| 12:21.07 | option | I"m just fighting with my macs at the moment be back soon. |
| 12:21.27 | menotume | Tupone: which version, exactly |
| 12:21.30 | Tupone | I wanted to test what 1.10 performance are compared to 2.0, as some people like that more |
| 12:21.35 | *** join/#bzflag DarthValou (~none@lsn-boi-catv-c114-p205.vtx.ch) |
| 12:21.42 | Tupone | CVS branch / HEAD |
| 12:21.52 | menotume | ok, lemme check |
| 12:22.09 | Tupone | I mean a checkout with -r v1_10branch |
| 12:22.14 | *** part/#bzflag DarthValou (~none@lsn-boi-catv-c114-p205.vtx.ch) |
| 12:24.42 | menotume | Tupone: I'll build/try it in about an hour |
| 12:25.50 | Tupone | ok, lemme know if that work, and what kernel/X/nvidia driver you use |
| 12:25.56 | BearPerson | okay, so a mesh seems to be just a collection of faces... |
| 12:26.40 | BearPerson | inside that mesh seems people can shoot normally... how can I make it so the inside counts as a building, effectively "seal"ing OO inside it? |
| 12:27.11 | rkr | did you specify an "inside" point? |
| 12:27.29 | *** join/#bzflag WolverineJrDUB (~Alex@host197-238.pool8290.interbusiness.it) |
| 12:28.17 | BearPerson | don't think so |
| 12:28.35 | rkr | i don't know if that will matter, but you might try adding one. |
| 12:29.57 | BearPerson | thanks, will try |
| 12:30.21 | rkr | (No one has told me what inside points are for, so I'm just guessing. (^& Good luck, and let us (or me!) know if it works.) |
| 12:30.28 | BearPerson | heh :) |
| 12:31.15 | ruskie | :)) |
| 12:31.28 | ruskie | trying to remove the nice OO sweet spot... |
| 12:31.44 | BearPerson | yup, works, thanks :) |
| 12:31.49 | BearPerson | even looks nicer |
| 12:31.52 | rkr | Ah, good. |
| 12:32.01 | ruskie | hmmm that doesn't sound good... |
| 12:32.09 | rkr | Thanks for letting me know, too. |
| 12:32.29 | BearPerson | _Manu_, I got a map update for you |
| 12:32.34 | ruskie | eeeekkkkk |
| 12:32.59 | ruskie | BearPerson, did you fix the pyramids at the bases as well? |
| 12:33.11 | BearPerson | yeah |
| 12:33.37 | _Manu_ | BearPerson, fixint the thin column? |
| 12:33.42 | BearPerson | yeah |
| 12:33.43 | _Manu_ | s/fixint/fixing |
| 12:33.48 | _Manu_ | heh... |
| 12:33.56 | BearPerson | done, tested, works |
| 12:33.58 | _Manu_ | well, email me for update |
| 12:33.59 | ruskie | now I won't be able to be nasty... |
| 12:34.20 | BearPerson | want to "update" the world weapons with it to the 3-SW-config? |
| 12:34.29 | ruskie | ugghhh |
| 12:34.41 | ruskie | increase the number not lower it |
| 12:34.51 | _Manu_ | ? what are the changed you made? |
| 12:35.15 | BearPerson | I think we looked at them once, I tried clearing everything with less SWs |
| 12:35.24 | _Manu_ | ok.. then send me |
| 12:35.42 | BearPerson | should I keep the 2 GM's I added for fireworks or take them out? |
| 12:36.02 | BearPerson | and should the THs at the side of the base stay? |
| 12:36.10 | BearPerson | (also an addition) |
| 12:36.40 | ruskie | yes and yes and yes and increase sws |
| 12:36.48 | BearPerson | :) |
| 12:37.01 | _Manu_ | I thinks is ok.. and no more SWs please. heh |
| 12:37.11 | _Manu_ | they killed me and no camping :( |
| 12:37.24 | ruskie | so what |
| 12:37.30 | ruskie | I got killed a few times as well |
| 12:37.36 | ruskie | there's a #viper? |
| 12:37.52 | _Manu_ | yes |
| 12:37.59 | ruskie | and nobody told me... |
| 12:42.56 | BearPerson | I mentioned it on the ML a bit ago, getting mainly the reaction of "well, I'm not usually on IRC, so it shouldn't become the main place" |
| 12:42.58 | *** join/#bzflag SportChick (~SportChic@ca-redbch-cuda1-c3b-b-183.stmnca.adelphia.net) |
| 12:50.51 | rkr | Well, new kernel ready to test for the laptop. Wish me luck. (^& |
| 12:56.14 | rkr | The saving throw was borderline. I forgot to copy /etc/ifconfig.ne2 to /etc/ifconfig.ne0; however, it otherwise appears to be a success. |
| 12:58.09 | ruskie | hmm is it possible to define radar to only show one half(i.e. the forward part) |
| 12:58.13 | *** join/#bzflag WolverineJrDUB (~Alex@host197-238.pool8290.interbusiness.it) |
| 13:04.42 | option | nice program rkr |
| 13:04.49 | rkr | Old laptop, option. (^& |
| 13:05.22 | rkr | The requird wxGTK stuff takes a long time to build on my AMD64 3200. I think that the laptop may be occupied for a day or few on this build... |
| 13:05.25 | option | how old :) |
| 13:05.32 | rkr | Probably about 7 years. |
| 13:05.49 | option | does it have a color screen |
| 13:05.55 | rkr | Heh. |
| 13:06.09 | rkr | 18-bit RGB, but runs in "startx -- -depth 16". |
| 13:06.24 | rkr | In "-depth 24", it cuts the resolution down, which looks chunky on the panel display. |
| 13:06.56 | option | what kind of cpu |
| 13:07.12 | rkr | 233MHz plain Pentium (not PII, just Pentium). 128MB RAM. |
| 13:07.44 | option | that's ok |
| 13:07.53 | rkr | I won't be doing any editing on this machine, I think, but it's a little nicer to record with audacity than with audiorecord(1)... |
| 13:07.59 | option | I say go for the audacity build. |
| 13:08.14 | option | true |
| 13:08.20 | rkr | We'll see. It's building unzip right now (one of the many required packages). |
| 13:08.30 | rkr | I already started it. 'cd /usr/pkgsrc/audio/audacity && make update'. |
| 13:09.08 | rkr | One possibility is that one of the dependency targets will fail before it completes. But we'll see what we'll see... |
| 13:09.23 | option | geeze that's no good |
| 13:09.42 | option | would be nice that it downloads the deps as it goes if needed. |
| 13:09.44 | rkr | Well, Audacity has a ton of dependencies (direct and indirect). |
| 13:09.53 | rkr | That's what it does. |
| 13:10.06 | rkr | But if a required package won't build, then it won't build. |
| 13:10.07 | option | No problems then |
| 13:10.15 | option | Ohhhhhh |
| 13:10.15 | rkr | (Or do you mean go with precompiled packages? (^&) |
| 13:10.42 | option | No luke use the fource :) |
| 13:11.53 | option | I just like having the choice. |
| 13:12.01 | rkr | (^& |
| 13:12.43 | rkr | There are precompiled binaries, but I prefer building from source. Prebuilt binaries sometimes get a little kooky in their dependencies if different people built different packages. |
| 13:13.13 | option | This might be a bit of a tricky question, but does anyone here play bzflag, or just compile it ^_~ |
| 13:13.21 | rkr | Also, some packages have compiled-in features/defaults that I'd rather control, like default paper size (U.S. Letter, please; not European A4...i don't have any A4 paper 'round here). |
| 13:13.31 | CBG | option: I play. |
| 13:13.48 | ruskie | rkr, :) |
| 13:13.52 | CBG | option: I suspect quite a few of the devs play, just with different names. :P |
| 13:13.54 | option | Your lucky then CBG, |
| 13:13.55 | rkr | I play. |
| 13:14.03 | ruskie | option, quite a lot of us play I think... |
| 13:14.05 | option | I watch |
| 13:14.16 | rkr | I also run my own server with an experimental map, which is produced by an experimental generator. |
| 13:14.22 | ruskie | :) |
| 13:14.38 | ruskie | I just runs a server with a nice rotation and map voting capab... |
| 13:14.43 | option | rkr that sounds interesting. |
| 13:14.52 | ruskie | same here.. |
| 13:15.14 | option | I"m keen on running a server on my g3 mac. |
| 13:15.26 | option | just for the heck of it. :) |
| 13:15.38 | CBG | option: go for it. |
| 13:15.43 | rkr | option: I sent a copy of the generator to ruskie. Just fooling around with producing shapes from descriptions. |
| 13:15.50 | CBG | option: hardware won't matter much... |
| 13:15.54 | rkr | Hm. |
| 13:16.07 | CBG | option: I guess if you can play bzflag on it ok, you can hhost a server on it ok. |
| 13:16.09 | option | kick some bots, well in fact they tend to kick me quite a bit, but still I soldier on. :) |
| 13:16.11 | rkr | Maybe I could solve some of my problems with ramps by adding a physics driver so that they work like conveyer belts? |
| 13:16.31 | option | I swear those bots cheat. |
| 13:16.31 | CBG | option: Its your internet connection that will cause problems. |
| 13:16.48 | *** join/#bzflag Mikk (~Mikk@c-24-60-204-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 13:16.53 | rkr | Threaten the bots with deletion. Tell'em you have the source. |
| 13:16.54 | option | Yeah my high speed on should come on soon |
| 13:17.14 | CBG | I wouldnt consider hosting anything seriously wiht less than 256Kbps upstream |
| 13:17.15 | option | I tried to stuff them up by adding log errors in the source and they still win. |
| 13:17.34 | option | no its just for me. |
| 13:17.46 | option | and maybe someone else |
| 13:17.55 | option | time will tell. |
| 13:18.17 | rkr | Docs somewhere claim that DSL (unqualified) should be fine for hosting a server. |
| 13:18.47 | option | dsl is like 128k right |
| 13:18.55 | CBG | I have 128 upstream... I can just abiout hold 2/3 people if none of them lags. |
| 13:19.18 | rkr | (I don't know my DSL's upstream speed exactly; it depends on the phase of the moon; I seem to send about 50KByte/sec when uploading to SourceForge, though, so probably about 400Kbit/sec. |
| 13:19.23 | option | that means 1 on 1 is a goer. |
| 13:19.23 | CBG | Sometimes, the lag will be incredibly high though (I suspect, just because one the players has bad lag and it affects the server). |
| 13:19.48 | option | Noooo, I hope that's not me. |
| 13:19.54 | rkr | But my network also hosts a web server, and sometimes the web server sends out big files to people...I need traffic shaping, I guess... |
| 13:20.01 | CBG | Yeah. you could probably do 1v1 on 128kbps |
| 13:20.14 | option | up or down. |
| 13:20.16 | rkr | I've had 3 or 4 people on at once and people say the lag's fine. |
| 13:20.30 | rkr | It gets a bit choppy if I load a bunch of bots, though. (^& |
| 13:20.30 | option | what up speed is that. |
| 13:20.43 | CBG | I emant upstream |
| 13:20.51 | rkr | option: me? Or CBG? |
| 13:20.52 | CBG | *meant. 128Kbps Upstream. |
| 13:20.59 | option | rkr |
| 13:21.25 | rkr | No guarantees. I get about 50Kbyte/sec to SourceForge, so probably about 400Kbits/sec. |
| 13:22.08 | rkr | (That's 50Kbyte/sec uploading to SForge; downloading varies greatly with the mirror...(^&) |
| 13:22.10 | option | well, just will have kind of highish speed 256/65, but its going to be better than dialup. |
| 13:23.10 | option | The US I think has better high speed network support for home users, then we do here. |
| 13:23.23 | option | I stared with a 1200bps modem |
| 13:23.40 | *** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (~jujibo@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 13:23.41 | rkr | Where's "here", option? I had the impression that at least some of Europe was doing better than the U.S... |
| 13:23.49 | *** join/#bzflag WolverineJrDUB (~Alex@host197-238.pool8290.interbusiness.it) |
| 13:23.59 | option | I remembered how good it was to have the super fast 14.4k modem. |
| 13:24.04 | rkr | (^& |
| 13:24.14 | option | and then then 19.2 that no bbs supported. |
| 13:24.24 | option | and on and on. |
| 13:24.25 | BearPerson | CBG, you can in fact drive through your own laser |
| 13:24.31 | BearPerson | s/through/along/ |
| 13:24.41 | CBG | BearPerson: I said so :P |
| 13:25.01 | option | Yeah, those where the days. |
| 13:25.21 | rkr | They were indeed the days. (^& |
| 13:25.22 | *** join/#bzflag [dmp] (~dennis@port151.ds1-aboes.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 13:25.40 | rkr | (unzip, zip, pkgconfig, and libogg all compiled so far for Audacity...) |
| 13:26.33 | rkr | oh, now PERL 5.8 is extracting and preparing to build. (^& |
| 13:26.39 | option | I wonder if ob'ing lags the server as much as normal play? |
| 13:26.48 | ruskie | ob' |
| 13:26.49 | rkr | "ob'ing"? |
| 13:26.52 | ruskie | ?? |
| 13:26.55 | option | watching. |
| 13:26.58 | ruskie | ahh |
| 13:26.59 | rkr | Oh. |
| 13:27.00 | option | spying. |
| 13:27.15 | rkr | Well, you don't have to send any tank info to the server, so that would help. |
| 13:27.24 | option | I guess it would help |
| 13:27.55 | option | I can play pretty well over here in aus, but the servers are all empty |
| 13:28.04 | rkr | Dunno if the protocol does anything else to make observers less of a load. |
| 13:28.14 | option | and I just tend to watch on the overseas servers at the moment. |
| 13:28.52 | *** part/#bzflag Mikk (~Mikk@c-24-60-204-79.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 13:28.58 | option | I dont think it really makes alot of difference. |
| 13:29.20 | option | I know that there is a limit too how many observers you can have. |
| 13:30.05 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@63.147.94.151) |
| 13:30.23 | rkr | (Lots of "WHOA THERE" notes...something may be botched in the PERL build.) |
| 13:31.25 | option | Yeah, I know when I watch a build, and its pumping out warmings left right and center, I hold my breath waiting for the fatal error, hoping like hell it doesnt' come. |
| 13:31.33 | rkr | (^& |
| 13:31.58 | option | But I've been lucky of late. |
| 13:32.01 | rkr | When my AMD64 box was new, I started to fix some of the more scary pointer/int conversion warnings... |
| 13:32.29 | rkr | (ARJ still scares me. The author casts pointers to integers (plain, not long, not size_t) in order to compare them. |
| 13:33.01 | option | I guess that's going to happen. |
| 13:33.05 | rkr | I sent him patches. He said he had rolled my patches in, but the next release still did that kind of thing...dunno if he threw out my changes or did the same old thing on new code. |
| 13:33.27 | rkr | Fortunately, no one uses ARJ. (^& I was just patching it as a matter of principle. |
| 13:34.28 | ruskie | :) |
| 13:34.30 | ruskie | how kind of you :) |
| 13:34.33 | option | Maybe you should of invited him to a duel in bzflag for his insolence. |
| 13:34.48 | rkr | (^& |
| 13:35.45 | option | what kind of fps would a amd64 system pump out? |
| 13:35.48 | rkr | I just don't use ARJ. If I ever need to, I'll fix it again. |
| 13:36.09 | rkr | Depends on what it's makeing frames of, among many other things, option. (^& |
| 13:36.28 | rkr | On my NetBSD box, there's no DRI, so I have to cut the resolution down and turn off things like blending to get decent framerates. |
| 13:36.35 | rkr | "Decent" being relative. |
| 13:36.38 | option | NO way. |
| 13:36.45 | rkr | (^& |
| 13:36.55 | option | decent being, over 100fps. |
| 13:37.01 | rkr | Software OpenGL. Gotta love it. |
| 13:37.26 | rkr | My monitor doesn't do vertical refreshes at 100fps. (^& |
| 13:37.34 | option | I think I'll pass |
| 13:37.41 | option | Oh |
| 13:38.35 | rkr | (^& |
| 13:38.36 | option | well I usually get around 100fps |
| 13:38.44 | *** join/#bzflag Admirarch (Admirarch@80-229-66-196.dslconnect.plus.net) |
| 13:38.50 | rkr | I don't remember how fast bzflag ran under my Mandrake install. |
| 13:38.50 | option | It can drop. |
| 13:39.13 | rkr | That did DRI, but the drivers were not, I think, well adapted. |
| 13:39.21 | option | I have tested it under fc3 and windows 98 and fc3 beat the virus |
| 13:39.28 | rkr | It certainly was much better than the rate on software rendering, though. |
| 13:40.14 | option | I feel that software rendering could be very unpleasant. |
| 13:40.19 | rkr | Alas, Mandrake doesn't include a BSD userland and I gave up trying to bootstrap pkgsrc on Mandrake. (^& |
| 13:41.09 | rkr | i'll probably try FreeBSD again in a few months and see if they've worked out usable support for my system. They "should" do DRI. |
| 13:41.38 | rkr | then again...there's more activity on getting DRM support into the NetBSD kernel, so DRI may materialize before I can be bothered to try freeBSD again. |
| 13:41.54 | option | rkr I'd forget about FreeBSD, and go all out with gentoo. |
| 13:42.38 | rkr | optoin: What's gentoo userland like? (^& The SYSV-ish typical LINUX distro leaves me a bit cold. |
| 13:43.20 | option | Well, its looks nice then fc3 did |
| 13:43.34 | rkr | (I also had trouble finding an AMD64 ISO of Gentoo. Maybe I looked in the wrong area. I noticed that some, like SuSE, seemed to be treating the AMD64 like a "high end server" target and would only sell you a CD...) |
| 13:43.35 | option | and its feels smooth and responsive. |
| 13:43.49 | option | No there is one |
| 13:44.04 | option | I got the cd installer. |
| 13:44.18 | rkr | (NetBSD is smooth and responsive on AMD64, too. Just doesn't happen to do DRI---yet. (^&) |
| 13:44.19 | option | And I'm pretty sure I sure amd56 |
| 13:44.25 | option | amd64 I mean. :) |
| 13:44.46 | rkr | Gentoo homepage at http://www.gentoo.org/, I assume? |
| 13:45.02 | option | Maybe NetBSD is target towards different goals. |
| 13:45.04 | option | yes. |
| 13:45.22 | option | Just i min I give you a link as well. |
| 13:45.59 | rkr | NetBSD includes the basics (server, workstation, security, performance) and adds to that explicit targeting of clean portability: One source tree for ~everything. |
| 13:46.07 | option | I think they call it ai64 |
| 13:46.19 | rkr | Um, not ia64, I hope? |
| 13:46.26 | option | There is no hope |
| 13:46.34 | option | I have seen others I |
| 13:46.39 | rkr | ia64 is the Intel "itanium" stuff; not AMD64 at all. 9^& |
| 13:48.09 | rkr | Okay, found something that looks promising. |
| 13:48.11 | rkr | Hm. |
| 13:48.18 | option | here we go |
| 13:48.30 | rkr | I don't wanna kill my NetBSD install, but have a spare hard drive I could swap in for this... |
| 13:48.40 | option | amd64-2005.0.iso |
| 13:48.49 | option | I would give it ago |
| 13:49.13 | rkr | What's the basic drill? Pop in the bootable install CD, boot, say "yes, gimme everything' to every question, and wait 5 or 10 minutes while it installs? |
| 13:49.27 | rkr | Or is it going to be downloading stuff off of the 'net during the install? |
| 13:49.38 | option | Yeah there are lots of ways to install |
| 13:49.52 | option | You can get a full install |
| 13:50.02 | option | download the iso's |
| 13:50.09 | option | and of course netinstall |
| 13:50.32 | option | I have a cd, but it still needs the net to install |
| 13:50.39 | rkr | And do they use a "make" driven package system so I can browse around with cd/ls/etc., like FreeBSD ports and NetBSD pkgsrc, or do I need to learn some custom package tool before I can find anything not in the base system? (^& |
| 13:50.51 | option | I have not tried the full install, as I dont have those images. |
| 13:51.17 | rkr | There's install-amd64-minimal-2005.0.iso and install-amd64-universal-2005.0.iso |
| 13:51.36 | option | and |
| 13:51.37 | rkr | And a pckage CD. |
| 13:51.50 | rkr | And three "stags"... |
| 13:51.54 | option | amd64-full-20030822.iso |
| 13:51.56 | option | as well |
| 13:52.03 | rkr | I don't see that one. |
| 13:52.12 | option | I have a link |
| 13:52.42 | rkr | Oh, wait, 20030822? Um, shouldn't I be getting something a little more up to date? (^& |
| 13:53.07 | rkr | I'm looking at Oregon State university's 2005.0... |
| 13:53.09 | option | http://dev.gentoo.org/~tester/amd64-tech-notes-orig.html |
| 13:53.21 | option | that gives you more info |
| 13:53.28 | rkr | (nod) |
| 13:53.48 | rkr | First line says: "This version is very old..." Directs to http://amd64.gentoo.org/technotes.xml |
| 13:54.00 | rkr | ...which doesn't actually load; (^& |
| 13:54.54 | bryjen | http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/2005.0/handbook-amd64.xml |
| 13:54.57 | rkr | What is "grp"? |
| 13:55.00 | option | yeah |
| 13:55.08 | option | sorry about that |
| 13:55.19 | option | but at least you should be able to build in a 1 stage |
| 13:55.38 | option | that info is probably well out of data |
| 13:55.40 | option | dae |
| 13:55.53 | rkr | (^& |
| 13:55.53 | option | date darn fingers. |
| 13:56.01 | menotume | brlcad: pingy |
| 13:56.25 | option | *smiles* |
| 13:56.28 | menotume | or learner: ping |
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| 14:00.27 | rkr | Oh, question about LINUX kernels... |
| 14:00.42 | rkr | i have one of the dreaded nVidia nForce3 chipset motherboards with botched IOAPIC handling. |
| 14:01.15 | option | I'm sure there is a workaround for it. |
| 14:01.17 | rkr | In NetBSD, I have to build a custom kernel. About a year ago, i was wandering through the LINUX kernel sources and saw that they just disable IOAPIC if they spot such a chipset... |
| 14:01.22 | rkr | (^& |
| 14:01.26 | option | keep those toes crossed. |
| 14:01.51 | rkr | The only workaround I know of is to kill off IOAPIC. I was wondering if it has been fixed any better since then. |
| 14:02.03 | option | Might be. |
| 14:02.14 | option | You will have to wait and see. |
| 14:02.28 | rkr | (The NetBSD/amd64 port maintainer has stated that he doesn't consider running w/o IOAPIC to be fully supported. I'm not 100% clear what it is or why I should care...) |
| 14:02.49 | rkr | Ah well. Was an outside chance that someone would say, "Yeah, I have one of those, too, and ..." (^& |
| 14:03.25 | option | I"m so happy I dont have a amd64 with a buggy chipset. :) |
| 14:03.49 | rkr | AMD seems to attrack lousy chipset makers for motherboards. |
| 14:03.50 | option | but I'm sure it will be fixed. |
| 14:04.06 | option | I really like the AMD processors. |
| 14:04.09 | rkr | People never had anything positive to say about the VIA motherboards... |
| 14:04.10 | rkr | (nod) |
| 14:04.15 | option | I never liked the intel ones |
| 14:04.29 | rkr | AMD also makes motherboard chipsets. If you want to spend rather more...(^& |
| 14:05.04 | option | in fact amd is the reason, we have good cpu's at a reasonable price. |
| 14:05.14 | option | Yes. |
| 14:05.21 | bryjen | there's a boot-time kernel parameter (noapic) to disable IOAPICs |
| 14:05.31 | rkr | I got the nVidia nForce3 chipset motherboard since the alternative was VIA and I figured "nVidia is well-regarded for graphics cards. They'll do a good motherboard chipset, right?" I also had heard good things from someone about nForce2 on 32-bit systems... |
| 14:05.49 | *** join/#bzflag jolie (~alex@jolie.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 14:05.49 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v jolie] by ChanServ |
| 14:05.56 | option | *smiles* |
| 14:06.36 | option | I guess there good at making graphics boards, but a bit dodgy at chipsets |
| 14:06.37 | jolie | morning |
| 14:06.45 | rkr | Morning. |
| 14:06.46 | option | morning jolie |
| 14:07.22 | rkr | Who knows? Maybe the internals of their graphics boards are also dodgy. Maybe that's why they prefer to do binary drivers rather than publish? (^& |
| 14:07.24 | option | A bit dodgy reminds me of some of the lines off red dwarf. |
| 14:07.42 | option | I reckon you might be right. :) |
| 14:08.19 | rkr | Okay, I need to get up and do something constructive. (^& Take care. |
| 14:08.29 | option | ok have a nice day. |
| 14:08.36 | option | and stay bug free. ^_^ |
| 14:08.43 | jolie | too hot for being a nice day. |
| 14:08.54 | option | Nice and cool here |
| 14:09.13 | rkr | Bugs are good. They have protein...(^& |
| 14:09.16 | jolie | yes, when i see my new brand powerbook .. weather changes |
| 14:09.24 | option | ^_~ |
| 14:09.45 | option | I bet it does. |
| 14:10.28 | option | when I look at my old most of the panels missing 6400 mac, I realise how much nicer a G5 would be :) |
| 14:10.35 | option | gosh they look sooooooo nice. |
| 14:11.49 | option | apples just look good. |
| 14:21.06 | Tupone | ciao jolie :) (tres jolie) |
| 14:21.36 | jolie | hey Tupone |
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| 14:29.23 | *** join/#bzflag BenUrban (~benurban@68.32.118.193) |
| 14:30.17 | BenUrban | ... |
| 14:30.21 | BenUrban | thanks... |
| 14:31.52 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (~Matthew@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 14:32.20 | BenUrban | that's more like it |
| 14:32.30 | BenUrban | lol |
| 14:32.33 | BenUrban | lmao |
| 14:34.18 | Tupone | rkr: I have amd64 + nvidia3 * gentoo. All works good |
| 14:34.55 | jolie | so.. xchat aqua... |
| 14:35.15 | BenUrban | what about it? |
| 14:35.19 | rkr | Tupone: How old is the motherboard? |
| 14:35.51 | Tupone | is a laptop, bought on december |
| 14:35.56 | rkr | BenUrban: nForce3 motherboard chipset has had issues with IOAPIC historically... |
| 14:36.08 | BenUrban | i was talking about what jolie said |
| 14:36.10 | BenUrban | lol |
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| 14:36.58 | *** join/#bzflag S1gn (~corwin@bzq-219-149-91.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 14:37.14 | menotume | "sign, sign, everywhere a sign" |
| 14:37.14 | BenUrban | oh wait that's s1gn |
| 14:37.15 | S1gn | hello |
| 14:37.16 | BenUrban | nm |
| 14:37.18 | BenUrban | lol |
| 14:37.27 | BenUrban | keep driving |
| 14:37.28 | menotume | "gawing up the scenery, taking up time" |
| 14:38.13 | Cyraq | hello |
| 14:38.19 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (~JeffM@JeffM2501.sustaining.supporter.pdpc) |
| 14:38.19 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 14:38.26 | S1gn | where can I check full serverlist on the web? |
| 14:38.29 | menotume | JeffM2501 !! |
| 14:38.38 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 14:38.40 | Cyraq | just thought i would ask, how long's the wait till we actually get a single player mode in the great bzFlag |
| 14:38.43 | menotume | hello :) |
| 14:38.48 | JeffM2501 | hello |
| 14:38.59 | BenUrban | Cyraq: no sooner than 3.0 |
| 14:39.10 | BenUrban | and i doubt it will ever happen with the current administration |
| 14:39.18 | BenUrban | :P |
| 14:39.26 | bryjen | http://my.bzflag.org/serverlist.php |
| 14:39.34 | S1gn | bryjen: thanx |
| 14:40.23 | Tupone | what is a single player mode? |
| 14:40.39 | BenUrban | probably where the map has puzzles you have to get through |
| 14:40.40 | BenUrban | and such |
| 14:40.44 | BenUrban | and there' |
| 14:40.48 | BenUrban | s a cheese at the end |
| 14:40.56 | bryjen | you can play against the bots |
| 14:40.57 | S1gn | and why robots are so stupid :-) |
| 14:41.12 | BenUrban | puzzles require scripting |
| 14:41.17 | BenUrban | to at least some extent |
| 14:41.35 | Tupone | S1gn: that is because we coded that. More intelligent entity will code that better |
| 14:41.55 | BenUrban | ~pw |
| 14:41.55 | ibot | hmm... patches welcome is a common response by maintainers of Open Source products. It's roughly means "We don't have much time on our hands, so if you write that feature and send it to us we will likely roll it in. If you don't have the time to write it, we don't either. Stop asking for it." |
| 14:42.20 | JeffM2501 | why would somone want a single player mode for a network tank game? |
| 14:42.30 | BenUrban | like i said... |
| 14:42.36 | BenUrban | it would never happen with the currnet administration |
| 14:42.40 | BenUrban | *crrent |
| 14:42.42 | BenUrban | *current |
| 14:42.47 | JeffM2501 | actualy if somone made it, there would be |
| 14:42.56 | CBG | JeffM2501: because they want the network tank game to also be a single player tank game |
| 14:43.01 | JeffM2501 | I just don't see anyone finding a need for it |
| 14:43.07 | CBG | Ditto. |
| 14:43.11 | BenUrban | offline practice perhaps? |
| 14:43.18 | JeffM2501 | that's like saying quake 3 has a single player game |
| 14:43.21 | BenUrban | though that can be done with a privvate server |
| 14:43.24 | CBG | Why do you need a "Single Player Mode" for that? |
| 14:43.27 | rkr | Set up your own server and join -solo <n>. |
| 14:43.32 | CBG | Exactly. |
| 14:43.35 | rkr | Make the 'bots smarter. |
| 14:43.42 | CBG | I second that. |
| 14:43.47 | option | Yes for sure |
| 14:43.48 | JeffM2501 | code it up |
| 14:43.53 | CBG | Make the "-solo" bots the same as Roger. |
| 14:43.54 | rkr | (^& |
| 14:43.58 | option | Get those things jumping. |
| 14:44.03 | BenUrban | make the bots less risky |
| 14:44.05 | Cyraq | yeah, the bots should be a llot smarter. |
| 14:44.09 | S1gn | and picking flags |
| 14:44.14 | BenUrban | and make them care when they tk |
| 14:44.15 | BenUrban | :P |
| 14:44.22 | option | and make it so they can miss, for once :) |
| 14:44.26 | BenUrban | lmao |
| 14:44.28 | S1gn | :-) |
| 14:44.29 | rkr | I don't see that "single player" is really lacking. Making bots smarter, or giving them a rating, might be an enhancement if you want to practice, though. |
| 14:44.33 | JeffM2501 | Cyraq, code up new smarts for em |
| 14:44.34 | Chestal | the bots can do some things which roger can't and vice versa |
| 14:44.40 | CBG | AutoPilot a.k.a roger can pick up flags and jump, etc. Why cant the -solor bots ? |
| 14:44.44 | BenUrban | really? |
| 14:44.53 | CBG | Chestal: what can bots do that roger cant? |
| 14:44.54 | BenUrban | hmm |
| 14:44.57 | BenUrban | never noticed |
| 14:45.03 | rkr | Bots are easy to dodge at distance. |
| 14:45.04 | Chestal | the -solo bots have pathfinding and potentially better aim |
| 14:45.04 | Cyraq | i dont know coding JeffM2501, im a web designer :D |
| 14:45.07 | CBG | BenUrban: Open you'r eyes. :P |
| 14:45.11 | BenUrban | lol |
| 14:45.13 | BenUrban | i avoid bots |
| 14:45.19 | BenUrban | they piss me off |
| 14:45.20 | JeffM2501 | Cyraq, then I guess bots aren't geting smarter |
| 14:45.42 | CBG | Chestal: Cant you give roger the same aim as bots and give bots the ability to use flags and jump? |
| 14:45.43 | BenUrban | heh, on some servers, where they're really bad, i've been known to start hunting my teammate bots |
| 14:45.47 | rkr | Bots are annoying if you have to jump down a long ways to face them. They'll put a bullet under you on your way down. |
| 14:45.47 | Chestal | the pathfinding assumes a 2D map, though |
| 14:45.57 | CBG | lol BenUrban. |
| 14:46.00 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, not allways |
| 14:46.04 | BenUrban | lol |
| 14:46.06 | BenUrban | it's only fair |
| 14:46.09 | BenUrban | they hunt me... |
| 14:46.13 | JeffM2501 | bz maps can be broken down into a series of stacked 2d levels |
| 14:46.14 | CBG | Or so it seems. |
| 14:46.27 | BenUrban | though in both cases i die |
| 14:46.30 | CBG | lol |
| 14:46.33 | BenUrban | so do they, but they don't care |
| 14:46.45 | Chestal | CBG: the problem is that bots did not use to be real players, kidnof a special case without collission detection. Might have changed, I am not quite up to date |
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| 14:47.26 | CBG | I would just like to see bots and roger kinda combined... so they both have the good aim, but both can also jump, etc. |
| 14:47.33 | *** join/#bzflag Birdie (~birdie@d5153C0D8.access.telenet.be) |
| 14:47.40 | CBG | I shall add it to my list of patches to make... ;) |
| 14:47.40 | Tupone | Chestal: they have collision detection |
| 14:47.59 | Chestal | Tupone: I wonder how the segment code works with the new map objects anyway? |
| 14:48.03 | rkr | It might be nice if the server could be told to run bots (especially if the server can do it with _disableBots=1). |
| 14:48.13 | rkr | But then you'd have to put bot code into the server... |
| 14:48.14 | Tupone | I wonder the same :( |
| 14:48.28 | BenUrban | well |
| 14:48.42 | BenUrban | the server could have a plugin that spawns an external bzflag client |
| 14:48.44 | option | back later, have fun.. and get those bots jumping. |
| 14:48.56 | rkr | BenUrban: But that wouldn't work with _disableBots=1. |
| 14:49.04 | rkr | For external client, you can just run a script on the server... |
| 14:49.15 | BenUrban | huh? i don't see what you mean |
| 14:49.24 | Chestal | there is no headless client yet, though |
| 14:49.27 | Tupone | the flag code use tcp if I remember well, and I see how to integrate bots and player sharing the same tcp connection |
| 14:49.42 | Tupone | s/see/have to see/ |
| 14:49.50 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, didn't some class make a headless client for there AI project? |
| 14:50.07 | Chestal | JeffM2501: they did something, I don't remember exactly. Probably a quick hack |
| 14:50.17 | rkr | BenUrban: I have thsi simple script runnig to keep a bzadmin client at all times: while true; do; bzadmin <user>@localhost; done; |
| 14:50.21 | Chestal | we have bzadmin |
| 14:50.30 | Chestal | but it's all a bit quirky |
| 14:50.38 | JeffM2501 | Chestal, well most features start as quick hacks :) |
| 14:50.43 | rkr | Could run a regular client that way, too. |
| 14:50.51 | BenUrban | i see |
| 14:50.51 | rkr | But if the clients can start bots, then "anyone" can start bots. |
| 14:51.05 | Tupone | I did a client without window, should be in sf patch. But need an openGL screen where we do not render anythings. Perhaps mesa is ok |
| 14:51.19 | CBG | Yeah. A server plugin for bots sounds good. |
| 14:51.26 | rkr | My point was that it would be nice to let the server (only) run bots. Then you could control how many, etc. |
| 14:51.38 | CBG | So that the server can run bots, but not allow a client to join with bots... |
| 14:51.44 | rkr | Maybe if you could tell the server to only allow bots from a specific IP... |
| 14:51.56 | CBG | :) |
| 14:52.06 | rkr | Restricting the source of bots would be another way to do more or less the same thing. |
| 14:52.09 | BenUrban | it would be pretty hard to actally prevent client-side bots |
| 14:52.25 | rkr | The server already prevents client-side bots, if _disableBots=1. |
| 14:52.33 | BenUrban | really? |
| 14:52.34 | BenUrban | hmm |
| 14:52.40 | CBG | lol. :D |
| 14:52.42 | rkr | I don't know how it works. |
| 14:52.44 | CBG | Tupone: Whats up? |
| 14:52.46 | Tupone | if the client does not lie |
| 14:52.47 | Chestal | well, the default bots |
| 14:52.48 | bryjen | disabling client side bots relies on the client obeying the server |
| 14:52.53 | Chestal | you can always code up your own of coursse |
| 14:53.09 | rkr | Well, yes, Chestal. |
| 14:53.14 | Chestal | maybe make the client pass a Turing test before it is allowed to play ;-) |
| 14:53.19 | BenUrban | LMFAO |
| 14:53.25 | BenUrban | an *automated* turing test |
| 14:53.26 | BenUrban | ROFLMFAO |
| 14:53.26 | rkr | (^& |
| 14:53.43 | Tupone | CBG: I prefer a server without bots and a local headless client providing they |
| 14:53.43 | bryjen | who many player would fail? |
| 14:53.49 | bryjen | s/who/how/ |
| 14:54.08 | rkr | If the server has a policy about bots and the bulit-in bots are blocked, then a player has to make a conscious effort to circumvent that. You'll always have abusers and cheats. |
| 14:54.22 | CBG | providing they..... what? |
| 14:54.31 | Tupone | providing bots |
| 14:54.45 | CBG | Eh... |
| 14:54.48 | Tupone | while bots are banned from remote ip |
| 14:54.53 | BenUrban | lmao |
| 14:55.13 | CBG | This is what I added to my list: "Either: Restrict the source of bots so only a certain IP can run a client with bots, OR: Make a Server PlugIn so you can run bzfs with -solo # instead of doing it on a client, then use the normal command to block client bots." ok? |
| 14:55.42 | rkr | CBG: Sounds good. |
| 14:55.47 | CBG | :) |
| 14:56.21 | CBG | Now I just gotta finish learning PHP, start learning C++, finish that, and I can start working my way through the list (5 things so far). |
| 14:56.30 | BenUrban | lol |
| 14:56.59 | bryjen | i think tupone meant putting the bot code in a seperate program (that could run locally on the same machine as the bzfs) instead of adding it into bzfs |
| 14:57.02 | rkr | Write the code for a Turing Machine. |
| 14:57.23 | CBG | Bryjen: oh. Whats wrong with a server plugin? |
| 14:57.34 | CBG | ~dict turing |
| 14:57.42 | CBG | ~more |
| 14:57.42 | ibot | from memory, more is Displays the contents of the named files, one screenful at a time. Syntax: more (file1) (file2) ...(fileN). Where file1 through fileN are the files to display. Example: more papers/history-final displays the file papers/history-final. |
| 14:57.49 | BenUrban | lmao |
| 14:57.50 | CBG | ugh. |
| 14:57.58 | CBG | ~dict turing 2 |
| 14:58.04 | CBG | Argh! |
| 14:58.05 | BenUrban | haha |
| 14:58.13 | BenUrban | ~lart CBG |
| 14:58.17 | rkr | "turing machines" are mathematical abstracts, CBG. Google for it, or I'll explain in /msg... |
| 14:58.20 | CBG | -9 |
| 14:58.33 | bryjen | dunno. the server currently may not track enough info, and/or the plugin API may not be sufficient to do bots |
| 14:58.43 | bryjen | ~dict 2 turing |
| 14:58.55 | CBG | bryjen: yeah. i got it. but its no use. |
| 14:59.10 | CBG | I used /msg ibot so as not to flood the channel...... :P |
| 15:03.08 | CBG | Clearly, the turing tests thing was a joke. :P So you can code that yourself. :P |
| 15:04.32 | CBG | if F1 swaps between window and full-screen, F5 takes a screeny and F12 quits, what does F4 do? |
| 15:04.58 | Chestal | minimize |
| 15:05.07 | CBG | Ah. so Windows only? |
| 15:05.19 | bryjen | no, it works on Linuz |
| 15:05.22 | rkr | It iconifies or ungrabs the window in X. |
| 15:05.35 | CBG | :S |
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| 15:05.56 | CBG | Oh. it works. heh. :) |
| 15:06.12 | CBG | It sends it to the dock. I never knew that. :o |
| 15:06.30 | rkr | Not all X environments have a "dock". |
| 15:06.32 | BenUrban | lmao |
| 15:06.37 | BenUrban | osx does |
| 15:06.42 | CBG | ... :) |
| 15:06.52 | JeffM2501 | OSX is not X11 |
| 15:06.54 | BenUrban | but osx is not an x environment |
| 15:06.57 | rkr | I think in -window mode it just ungrabs the window. In fullscreen, i think it iconifies (which, yes, probably docks on some window managers). |
| 15:07.05 | rkr | Oh. Missed that. |
| 15:07.08 | rkr | OSX can run X11... |
| 15:07.12 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 15:07.13 | JeffM2501 | it can |
| 15:07.16 | BenUrban | but usually doesn't |
| 15:07.32 | JeffM2501 | but that still dosn't give X11 a doc :) |
| 15:07.40 | BenUrban | lol indeed |
| 15:07.56 | CBG | Someone else had said they used F4 or something. I had tried to use it in full-screen mode, with no affect. |
| 15:08.18 | BenUrban | CBG: try f11 :P |
| 15:08.49 | CBG | I use that everyday... tsk. |
| 15:08.53 | BenUrban | lol |
| 15:09.01 | rkr | Your window manager can give you a dock, Jeff. Depends on the wm. |
| 15:09.07 | BenUrban | the first time i used it i wondered where the hell my windows went |
| 15:09.27 | rkr | WHen twm iconifies a window, you just get a tiny window generally, all titlbar. |
| 15:09.33 | BenUrban | several months later i found the control panel that mentions it |
| 15:09.36 | JeffM2501 | that it can |
| 15:09.42 | JeffM2501 | but a WM is not X11 ether :) |
| 15:09.48 | BenUrban | lol |
| 15:09.53 | JeffM2501 | hell I can get a dock in windows |
| 15:09.55 | BenUrban | x11 provides nothing |
| 15:09.57 | BenUrban | it's vaporware :P |
| 15:10.08 | rkr | Um, X11 always has a WM. (Even if you don't run an external one, there's a default internal one...) |
| 15:10.11 | JeffM2501 | X11 provides some very core services |
| 15:10.21 | JeffM2501 | yeah it does have it's own deault WM |
| 15:10.26 | JeffM2501 | but it dosn't have to be the same |
| 15:10.36 | JeffM2501 | on cygwin, you can even ahve XP be the WM :) |
| 15:10.38 | rkr | You can use any wm you like. I like twm. (^& |
| 15:10.48 | rkr | Heh. |
| 15:10.52 | JeffM2501 | X11 sans WM is useles :) |
| 15:10.53 | BenUrban | and on osx, you can use cocoa-wm |
| 15:10.59 | JeffM2501 | ja |
| 15:11.06 | rkr | I run X -rootless on Cygwin. |
| 15:11.15 | JeffM2501 | umm ok ruskie |
| 15:11.19 | JeffM2501 | rkr, even :) |
| 15:11.48 | rkr | s/all read/all red/ |
| 15:12.04 | BenUrban | still under warranty :P |
| 15:13.23 | BenUrban | lmao |
| 15:13.29 | rkr | A little bit of net lag. 'sall. |
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| 15:41.25 | menotume | ~seen GvzEvxre |
| 15:41.25 | ibot | gvzevxre is currently on #botpark (2d 11h 17m 29s) #linuxfund (2d 11h 17m 29s) #ol (2d 11h 17m 29s) # (2d 11h 17m 29s) #fossfund (2d 11h 17m 29s) #classiccmp (2d 11h 17m 29s). Has said a total of 2 messages. Is idling for 15h 59m 59s |
| 15:41.52 | menotume | kick the idleer ! |
| 15:41.59 | menotume | :) |
| 15:42.46 | rkr | Only 16 hours of idling. Pfah. |
| 15:45.42 | BenUrban | !seen GvzEvxre |
| 15:45.43 | TheLastSpartan` | BenUrban: GvzEvxre was last seen here 5 days, 7 hours, 33 minutes, and 4 seconds ago saying: * GvzEvxre hits the sack. |
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| 15:58.33 | *** part/#bzflag RPG_ (~G-bus@c-24-15-87-171.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 16:08.27 | menotume | Good morning DTRemenak !! |
| 16:08.56 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@63.147.94.151) |
| 16:08.59 | DTRemenak | morning menotume |
| 16:09.59 | *** part/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@63.147.94.151) |
| 16:10.20 | DTRemenak | standards are for cowards |
| 16:10.49 | rkr | Like C, C++, ...(^& |
| 16:11.03 | DTRemenak | more fun when they're all nonstandard and conflicting ;) |
| 16:11.17 | menotume | yes, no challenge otherwise |
| 16:11.18 | trepan | enter MS |
| 16:11.56 | rkr | You can do it with one line. |
| 16:12.08 | rkr | loop: jmp loop |
| 16:12.22 | DTRemenak | break on and ctrl-c will bail you from that |
| 16:12.23 | rkr | (Well, ignoring interrupts, but nothing really does much in interrupts on DOS...) |
| 16:12.55 | rkr | Hm. Can't block all interrupts? |
| 16:13.04 | DTRemenak | that's what the other lines are for ;) |
| 16:13.10 | rkr | (^& |
| 16:14.22 | rkr | Wait...your code won't work. |
| 16:14.36 | rkr | there's no standard, so the mnemonics(sp) may be different than you expected. |
| 16:14.45 | DTRemenak | you haven't seen it, how do you know it won't work :) |
| 16:14.47 | rkr | And whoever said that your assembler uses *ASCii8/ |
| 16:14.57 | rkr | Whatever you use...(^& |
| 16:15.01 | DTRemenak | maybe it doesn't use ascii ;) |
| 16:15.13 | rkr | Exactly. |
| 16:15.15 | rkr | (^& |
| 16:15.28 | DTRemenak | so I have to type a bit differently...big deal :) |
| 16:16.01 | rkr | It's a big deal if you don't know what to type. (^& |
| 16:16.42 | DTRemenak | it's all about experimentation, that's what makes it fun :) |
| 16:17.27 | rkr | (^& |
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| 16:34.34 | CBG | I cant seem to make a meshbox slightly clear (transparent, alpha channel 0.9 or something) whilst still use the boxwall texture. |
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| 17:59.19 | Birdie | oxford?:) |
| 17:59.36 | Grumbler | nah, middle-something-another |
| 18:00.46 | Grumbler | university of london |
| 18:00.48 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@Tupone.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 18:00.48 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 18:01.00 | Grumbler | the middle-something-another was somehting else |
| 18:01.54 | Grumbler | i guess they have a sub-college or something Deeside College |
| 18:03.21 | Grumbler | maybe they should just take these computers out of the college kids hands, it obvious they cant handle it :) |
| 18:24.57 | TimRiker | menotume: blabbing here so other can read/comment. |
| 18:26.46 | TimRiker | my hopes for bzfls was that bzfs would send a list of 0 or more required groups. ie: "require VERIFIED", or "require TEAMFOO,TEAMBAR,REFEREES" etc. where membership in any of the groups qualifies for connecting. (well, more likely for spawning) |
| 18:27.18 | TimRiker | then when one does a LIST (ie: Find Servers) bzfls would exclude any servers that you don't have access to. |
| 18:27.27 | JeffM2501 | TimRiker, how would you feel about the server sending a bit for " don't list me" ? |
| 18:27.32 | JeffM2501 | to the list server |
| 18:27.49 | JeffM2501 | and also one for "only list me for people in THESE groups" |
| 18:27.53 | TimRiker | JeffM2501: I'd much, much, much rather it sent a grouplist. |
| 18:28.04 | JeffM2501 | TimRiker, grouplist yes |
| 18:28.14 | TimRiker | so no bit is required. |
| 18:28.23 | JeffM2501 | so 0 groups means don't list? |
| 18:28.31 | TimRiker | if you are in the group, you see it. if you aren't then you don't. |
| 18:28.34 | JeffM2501 | or 0 groups means list for all? |
| 18:28.44 | JeffM2501 | what if you just want everyone to see it? |
| 18:28.47 | TimRiker | the default grouplist if none is sent would be EVERYONE. |
| 18:28.51 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 18:28.54 | JeffM2501 | fair nuf |
| 18:28.57 | JeffM2501 | same idea |
| 18:29.01 | JeffM2501 | common mechanism |
| 18:30.00 | TimRiker | this way the popular "require VERIFIED" would work better, and league play servers would only be on the list for league members. |
| 18:30.21 | JeffM2501 | I was thinkin of making a plugin that would be able to mod the List server update URL params on each update, so the plugin could say go to group only listing like a hour before a match, then when the match starts, it would only allow those who are on the team groups to spawn and join the right teams |
| 18:30.27 | TimRiker | course ibot will have to get herself registered. ;-) |
| 18:30.29 | JeffM2501 | TimRiker, yes it could be really cool |
| 18:31.01 | JeffM2501 | was thinking the plugin could even pull data from a web page where people could sign up for matches |
| 18:31.09 | JeffM2501 | basicly it would just enforce the schedule |
| 18:31.24 | TimRiker | sure. the ADD could change the group requirements any time it wanted. just need an admin interface to do it. |
| 18:31.35 | JeffM2501 | tell people who connect when a game is on that 'Sorry there is game on, it will be over in N min" |
| 18:31.42 | JeffM2501 | TimRiker, yeah |
| 18:32.04 | JeffM2501 | then the plugin does auto reporting of the game score :) |
| 18:32.29 | JeffM2501 | hmmm |
| 18:32.36 | TimRiker | the SQL lookup needs to be fast. so just a group membership there. groups can be changed elsewhere. |
| 18:32.58 | JeffM2501 | hmmmm... so we make a membership group |
| 18:33.02 | JeffM2501 | tie it to paypall |
| 18:33.09 | JeffM2501 | and have paypall auto maintain the group |
| 18:33.15 | TimRiker | that would be cool. add the team score to the description so existing clients see that in the list. |
| 18:33.16 | JeffM2501 | and list a fast server just for people who donate :) |
| 18:33.36 | TimRiker | sure. that's possible too. |
| 18:34.04 | JeffM2501 | then we all buy fararis |
| 18:34.05 | TimRiker | oh, side note... I hope to use xmission as my ISP again, so it's likely xmission.bzflag.org will return. |
| 18:34.12 | JeffM2501 | fun fun |
| 18:34.28 | TimRiker | ~spell farari |
| 18:34.30 | JeffM2501 | hmm your in texas, your farari would have to have a gun rack |
| 18:35.04 | TimRiker | perhaps that porche suv with a gun rack and a couple shot guns. |
| 18:35.12 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 18:35.19 | JeffM2501 | somehow I don't see you as the gun type of guy |
| 18:36.19 | TimRiker | er.. then I mess up. s/porche/porsche/ |
| 18:36.53 | TimRiker | now one of my friend doug furr's gatling gun replicas. that would be cool. |
| 18:37.16 | spldart | Even my Kawasaki has a gun rack 8-0 |
| 18:37.59 | *** join/#bzflag bz1341 (~8b4e5db2@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 18:38.26 | bz1341 | Hello, channel |
| 18:39.00 | Tupone | TimRiker: I'd split token with listserver services. Not now, but what do you think about |
| 18:39.47 | TimRiker | JeffM2501: some want just a "hide this server" bit. so more thoughts... |
| 18:40.02 | menotume | ahhh, sry, must read up |
| 18:40.40 | TimRiker | I was thinking that the "server requires group FOO" could be different than what is actually required to SPAWN. so the server might in fact allow everyone, but only LIST for group NONEXISTANT etc. |
| 18:41.16 | TimRiker | so perhaps there is a ADVERTISE permission that defaults to group EVERYONE? but can be changed? |
| 18:41.24 | menotume | JeffM2501: how would you feel about the server sending a bit for " don't list me" ? <== I implemented this already |
| 18:42.06 | TimRiker | Tupone: not sure I followed that. what are you proposing? |
| 18:42.21 | menotume | Just so we understand what has been requested ... A way to keep a server off the list, yet be able to use global login |
| 18:43.04 | TimRiker | Tupone: are you saying that every client would have to do two round trip URLs instead of one? and both to the same server? please explain why twice the tcp traffic is a good idea. |
| 18:43.09 | Tupone | it is another topics ... to request a token you send a password and get the server list + token, to request a server list you do the same. Why not split |
| 18:43.14 | menotume | WITHOUT having to maintain a new group with allowed player - waaay to much work |
| 18:43.51 | TimRiker | menotume: exactly. ADVERTISE to nobody, but SPAWN for EVERYONE gives exactly that effect, no? |
| 18:44.01 | menotume | right, i agree |
| 18:44.13 | menotume | just to fill people in on what is being requested |
| 18:44.43 | TimRiker | k. agreed. I'm just pointing out that the require group is a more useful change, and not much more difficult to make. |
| 18:44.46 | menotume | I don't think they care how it's done, as long as those 2 needs are met |
| 18:44.57 | Birdie | !dict recycled |
| 18:44.58 | TheLastSpartan` | Birdie: No definition for 'recycled' could be found. |
| 18:45.04 | menotume | okies, i'll start looking |
| 18:45.10 | BearPerson | ah, JeffM2501... |
| 18:45.31 | BearPerson | Patch to make spawn effects use tank color, not team color (e.g. with CB flag): http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1227908&group_id=3248&atid=303248 |
| 18:45.44 | TimRiker | menotume: however, as we've discussed, having the league site actually use central groups is very useful. |
| 18:45.59 | menotume | yes, agreed, but i can't do it right ow |
| 18:46.28 | TimRiker | me neither. I'll be on the road to utah over the next couple days. |
| 18:47.38 | menotume | is there currently an ADVERTISE option ? |
| 18:48.06 | TimRiker | no. but it would be fairly easy to implement. |
| 18:48.26 | Tupone | .... follow .... or at least we could have an url to request a token only, so to avoid the transfer of all the server list contents. Even if we close connection as soon as we get the token, I guess more bytes are transferred then necessary |
| 18:48.28 | menotume | right, just making sure i understand |
| 18:48.39 | menotume | I have not played around with new server configs |
| 18:48.49 | TimRiker | menotume: fine. we could carve out LEAGUE.* group names for the league site to maintain. |
| 18:49.05 | menotume | right |
| 18:49.23 | TimRiker | Tupone: there is a URL to just get a token. but why not update the local cache at the same time? |
| 18:49.34 | menotume | I'm thinking that a cgi could be used at the db end, instead of hitting the db directly |
| 18:49.42 | menotume | with proper security |
| 18:49.55 | Tupone | well, normally I play just in one site, and I request a token when I join |
| 18:50.04 | TimRiker | Tupone: the list is a couple k at most. trivial time compared to actually establishing the connection. |
| 18:50.34 | TimRiker | unless you're on a 300 baud connection or something.... ;-) |
| 18:50.34 | Tupone | however we now throw away wathever we get ... when just entering the game |
| 18:50.50 | TimRiker | Tupone: now _that's_ something that could use fixing. ;-) |
| 18:50.57 | Tupone | hehe, ok |
| 18:51.18 | menotume | frmo what i saw, there is only one way to verify tokens - doing a server add, in which case all players are checked (extra sql) |
| 18:52.26 | TimRiker | menotume: there is a separate CHECKTOKENS command. it's not used from bzfs cause the server can do the ADD at the same time for a few hunderd bytes more traffic. |
| 18:52.53 | menotume | gotya |
| 18:53.24 | TimRiker | menotume: but if the league site wants to use it, that's fine. I tested it when I did the code. in fact the ADD calls the same CHECKTOKEN handler in the php code. |
| 18:53.24 | Tupone | POST seems to work fine ... and now is easy to make new forms ;) But I've changed only the client. Don't think ssl is necessary, but in case we need is easier |
| 18:53.54 | menotume | ssl in bzfs ? |
| 18:54.07 | Tupone | ssl in the client |
| 18:54.25 | Tupone | just to protect the password :/ |
| 18:54.32 | menotume | ahhh |
| 18:54.39 | Tupone | it is not a bank though |
| 18:54.42 | menotume | then from bzfs,-> bzfls ? |
| 18:54.56 | menotume | oooh, nvm |
| 18:55.06 | menotume | :) |
| 18:55.10 | TimRiker | SSL would be nice someday. I think the server supports it now, so you can test it out if you like. holler if I need to fix it. |
| 18:55.34 | menotume | or maybe a simple md5 |
| 18:55.37 | TimRiker | yep. https://my.bzflag.org/db works fine. |
| 18:55.40 | Tupone | I don't think it work. I remember checking with a browser |
| 18:55.49 | Tupone | ok, I'll retest |
| 18:56.13 | TimRiker | Tupone: you may have tried during the move to apache 2. it was broken for a couple days. |
| 18:56.26 | Tupone | ahh, yeah |
| 18:56.42 | TimRiker | wel, gotta get back to packing... |
| 18:56.58 | Tupone | where are you going? You're moving? |
| 18:57.27 | menotume | TimRiker: thanks for yer help |
| 18:57.48 | menotume | (and for giving me more work to do) :p |
| 18:59.56 | JeffM2501 | men |
| 19:00.04 | JeffM2501 | menotume, ahh cool |
| 19:00.30 | menotume | yes, i'll worl on ADVERTISE |
| 19:02.19 | bryjen | didn't get much beyond the pondering stage though ;) |
| 19:06.15 | TimRiker | bryjen: that's the thought. certianly bzf sites that are not on my.b.o could use checktoken to verify. they will need a login/redirect page on my.b.o though to get the token and then pass it to the remote site. |
| 19:07.44 | TimRiker | I was thinking a http://my.bzflag.org/login?redirect=http://bzflag.example.com type thing that shows a generic "login to http://bzflag.example.com using your bzflag login.. and then forwards with the token in the url. |
| 19:08.28 | TimRiker | menotume: =) sure. I'm happy to pile more work on you if you need it. ;-) seriously, thanx for looking at it. |
| 19:08.36 | menotume | np :) |
| 19:08.51 | menotume | ahhh, a new sql table, yay |
| 19:09.00 | TimRiker | bryjen: oh. the ADVERTISE permission would fit your needs there, correct? |
| 19:09.50 | TimRiker | menotume: you planning a one to many linking nameport to group text strings? |
| 19:10.14 | menotume | yes ... advertise groups per server |
| 19:10.37 | *** join/#bzflag Legoguy (~Legoguy@adsl-68-77-0-141.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net) |
| 19:10.39 | menotume | actually, group ids |
| 19:10.40 | bryjen | Not really my needs. I've just heard it asked for: central user account w/o being in the server list. |
| 19:10.55 | TimRiker | side note: in retrospect.. the it should really have been ipport as the unique value instead of nameport and the names might be duplicates. ah well. hindsight is 20/20 |
| 19:11.21 | menotume | there is already a servers table |
| 19:11.44 | TimRiker | bryjen: nod. this is the best way forward that I've seen discussed. It sounds very useful to me. |
| 19:11.58 | menotume | TimRiker: ahhh, i could add an id to 'servers' |
| 19:12.32 | *** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (~jujibo@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 19:12.56 | TimRiker | menotume: course the server would have no idea what the ID is, the LIST command is the one that needs to use it, so as long as that's efficent using an id is fine with me. |
| 19:13.32 | menotume | hmm, shoul be more efficient, i wouyld think |
| 19:13.40 | *** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (~jujibo@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 19:13.50 | menotume | on list, need to join 'servers' with serveradvertisegroups' |
| 19:14.01 | menotume | if i am understanding correctly |
| 19:14.57 | menotume | it's the client that makes the LIST request, yes ? |
| 19:15.01 | bryjen | yeah. filtering the list based on requesting user (and their groups) would be more useful and flexible than just a switch to turn off listing. |
| 19:15.39 | TimRiker | menotume: correct. |
| 19:16.11 | menotume | so, on bzfs 'ADD', it send the advertise groups .... bzfls would create/delete serveradgroups table as needed |
| 19:16.30 | TimRiker | menotume: correct. where no sent groups means "EVERYONE" |
| 19:16.33 | menotume | on client LIST, the sql lookup should be fairly painless |
| 19:16.42 | menotume | right, for compatibility :) |
| 19:17.15 | TimRiker | and if "EVERYONE" is sent it might be nice to ignore any others that are sent. keep the table smaller. |
| 19:17.27 | menotume | ahhh, yes |
| 19:17.53 | menotume | or, not entry in serveradgroups implies 'EVERYONE' |
| 19:18.00 | TimRiker | cause I can see a common config is a "sometimes public" server that adds and removes the "EVERYONE" but always sends the other groups. |
| 19:18.27 | menotume | yep |
| 19:18.40 | TimRiker | easier that way that to reconfig the server with the full allowed group list everytime. |
| 19:18.57 | menotume | fortunately, the hardest part for me is done - i have a test environment/listserver/tables, etc |
| 19:19.28 | menotume | enjoy |
| 19:19.36 | *** join/#bzflag tavla (~spreker@ip51cfa1ef.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 19:22.58 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2502 (~JeffM@users.gibbscam.com) |
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| 19:50.03 | Birdie | what sux is that people impersonate other people and missbehave |
| 19:50.25 | Birdie | i just got a player that joined who i did banned, but when i talked to him, the way he was talking, it was certainly not the guy i banned:/ |
| 19:50.57 | rkr | They can register their callsign to avoid that. |
| 19:51.04 | Birdie | well |
| 19:51.07 | Birdie | the guy was |
| 19:51.15 | rkr | And/or they can set a password on your machine. |
| 19:51.49 | rkr | Well, if he was registered, and so was his impersonator...then he either is sharing his system/password, or I'd suspect that it *was* the same guy... |
| 19:52.06 | rkr | Did he register globally, or did he use the /register and /identify stuff? |
| 19:53.09 | Birdie | i THINK global |
| 19:53.29 | Birdie | it could be the same guy but i really really doubt |
| 19:53.44 | Birdie | the other one was upset after 2 seconds, this one typed sentences with good english |
| 19:54.05 | Grumbler | pull! |
| 19:54.30 | rkr | (shrug) Dunno what to say. If he was being careful about his account... |
| 19:54.39 | Birdie | he is global i asked |
| 19:54.53 | Birdie | ok some one who can see ip's on bzbb pint:) |
| 19:54.54 | Birdie | ping |
| 19:54.56 | Grumbler | ban him, he is playing with your head |
| 19:56.17 | Birdie | i can check ip's first on bzbb.. |
| 19:56.24 | Birdie | to see if he ever logged in with the ip i banned |
| 19:56.28 | Birdie | in that range |
| 19:56.30 | rkr | Anything's possible. Maybe someone really has defeated the global registration for his callsign. But there's not much that you can do about it... |
| 19:56.57 | Birdie | nick is "elem3nt" i think i saw him before though.. |
| 19:56.58 | Grumbler | or maybe he has a buddy who uses his machine |
| 19:57.17 | rkr | Anyone who spells words using 'cool' numbers in place of letters is automatically suspect in my book. (^& |
| 19:57.26 | rkr | Yes, he may be sloppy about his account. |
| 19:57.32 | rkr | He may have picked an easy password. |
| 19:57.36 | Grumbler | i agree rkr, ban'em |
| 19:58.23 | Grumbler | did his ip lookup to a university......thats another good reason for banning :) |
| 19:58.26 | rkr | I'm not saying ban'im. just that it's hard to say for sure what's happened. (^& I'd tell him to change his global reg. password and hope that's the end of it. |
| 19:58.39 | rkr | Ah, if he's at a university... |
| 19:58.41 | Grumbler | your too soft |
| 19:58.46 | rkr | ...is he using a UNIX-alike client? |
| 19:59.08 | spldart | ~bzf spldart.bakadigital.com:5154 |
| 19:59.12 | rkr | He may be using a lab machine, in which case someone else may be able to read his ~/.bz*/2.0/config.conf or whatever. |
| 19:59.23 | spldart | or is it query ??? |
| 19:59.32 | rkr | I think bzquery. |
| 19:59.35 | rkr | Not sure. |
| 19:59.42 | Birdie | i told him to change his password and he emmidiately did |
| 19:59.46 | spldart | ~bzquery spldart.bakadigital.com:5154 |
| 19:59.49 | Birdie | ok that word iscnt correct... |
| 19:59.52 | Grumbler | bzfquery |
| 19:59.55 | Birdie | isnt * |
| 19:59.57 | spldart | ah.. |
| 20:00.08 | spldart | ~bzfquery spldart.bakadigital.com:5154 |
| 20:00.21 | Birdie | i dont want to ban innocent people.. |
| 20:00.24 | spldart | I always forget that |
| 20:00.57 | Legoguy | ... |
| 20:01.01 | spldart | LL CTF |
| 20:01.11 | spldart | hehe |
| 20:01.14 | Grumbler | spldart< just remember most of the bzflag commands start with bzf bzflist bzfquery bzfdestroytheworld |
| 20:01.24 | spldart | My bzadmin always crashes when it get's busy |
| 20:01.30 | spldart | No matter where I run it :( |
| 20:01.33 | bryjen | ~bzfrag Grumbler |
| 20:01.34 | ibot | ACTION kills Grumbler with a shot from his BZTank |
| 20:01.35 | rkr | bzfScareThespiders |
| 20:01.39 | *** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (~jujibo@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 20:01.44 | spldart | Thanks grumbler :) |
| 20:01.55 | Grumbler | yw |
| 20:03.07 | spldart | Restarted 3 times already :( |
| 20:03.32 | Grumbler | odd |
| 20:04.13 | spldart | it happens on any machine anywhere from my own lan to the internet. wether bzfs is on win or lin |
| 20:04.16 | *** join/#bzflag wegstar (~foo@wegstar.user.allegro) |
| 20:05.15 | Grumbler | spldart< how do you connect, lan address or outside address |
| 20:06.32 | spldart | On the lan I use the lan IP... From work i've tried xx.xx.xx.xx and I've tried the bakadigital... the results are always the same |
| 20:06.59 | spldart | Sorry.. IP not the term I meant |
| 20:08.32 | Grumbler | so it works from work, but not from lan |
| 20:09.41 | spldart | no |
| 20:10.01 | spldart | It always get's kicked wherever I run it when the bzfs gets busy |
| 20:10.08 | spldart | well... not officially kicked |
| 20:10.19 | spldart | but it quits closing the dos box... |
| 20:10.38 | spldart | From anywhere in the lan and at work too... |
| 20:11.24 | spldart | If the server is quiet thought it can run forever... and sometimes it will run fine through 2 maybe 3 players... but if I have 4 or more shooting up the place bzadmin crashes |
| 20:13.01 | Grumbler | i dont have any guesses. i know it works for others, so maybe you should ask someone else to run bzadmin and see what happens to them |
| 20:13.17 | spldart | that's an idea... |
| 20:13.39 | spldart | The only commonality is all machines that I've ever run bzadmin on were win XP |
| 20:14.27 | Grumbler | ah, i missed that, i read the bzfs as bzadmin in your first statement |
| 20:14.34 | Grumbler | yeah, try it on another os |
| 20:15.49 | spldart | that would be a problem for me though :( ... I'm only running another OS, Debian, for the sake of the bzfs operation.. But I'm still fairly happy with bzadmin's ability to keep an eye on problems :) |
| 20:16.23 | Grumbler | why not run a vncserver with bzadmin running.... |
| 20:17.08 | spldart | hrm... |
| 20:17.26 | spldart | That's an idea. But doesn't that add security issues? |
| 20:17.33 | Grumbler | sure |
| 20:17.47 | spldart | I was alreayd considering something like vncserver for another thing |
| 20:17.49 | Grumbler | dont open the vncserver port though, run it thorugh ssh |
| 20:17.56 | spldart | ah.. |
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| 20:18.07 | spldart | I was considering ssh too :) |
| 20:18.19 | spldart | but again, for another problem hehe |
| 20:18.52 | Grumbler | ssh is a pain, but dont run it on the standard port that gets ya by the 12-yearold crackers |
| 20:19.09 | spldart | good call |
| 20:19.20 | Grumbler | after that, you are basically on your own, because anybody who wants in , will get in |
| 20:19.30 | bryjen | you don't need vnc to do bzadmin, its a command line program. just use ssh |
| 20:19.35 | spldart | That's what has worried me |
| 20:19.51 | Grumbler | bryjen< to keep it up and running though, without have to restart it |
| 20:20.01 | bryjen | use screen |
| 20:20.24 | purple_cow | JeffM2502: so it turns out that CEGUI is completely bogus |
| 20:20.29 | spldart | was considering using ssh to allow wife to get around blocked sites at her work using a jump through my home server :) |
| 20:21.49 | Grumbler | not familar with screen, vnc with twm has been my standby for years |
| 20:22.31 | Grumbler | i suppose you could suspend the process and reconnect to another display, but i have always had buggy behaviour with anything beyond basic stuff |
| 20:23.14 | purple_cow | using vnc for a console app is like a bicycle courier actually using a cement truck |
| 20:23.17 | purple_cow | use screen ;) |
| 20:24.00 | bryjen | screen lets terminal based programs connect to it, and it stays running in the background if you disconnect, so you can reconnect later |
| 20:24.28 | spldart | I'll look into screen a bit... |
| 20:24.32 | Grumbler | so its only process based |
| 20:24.41 | Grumbler | yeah, i usually want more than that |
| 20:25.01 | Grumbler | rare to only want a single terminal |
| 20:25.02 | purple_cow | more? you want more? screen can do this. |
| 20:25.06 | spldart | can I use screen for this problem? linux server and windows machines with bzadmin |
| 20:25.06 | Grumbler | heh |
| 20:25.44 | bryjen | you can do multiple virtual terminals in one screen process |
| 20:26.15 | bryjen | on the win pc, ssh into the linux box, run screen there and start a bzadmin in it |
| 20:26.29 | spldart | ic |
| 20:26.47 | spldart | well... I'll check into all these ideas :) |
| 20:27.02 | *** join/#bzflag blast007 (~blast007@24-196-92-143.jvl.wi.charter.com) |
| 20:27.07 | Grumbler | it sounds like it might be useful for that |
| 20:28.01 | Grumbler | not useful for how i work things |
| 20:28.37 | bryjen | but then again, you're just insane ;) |
| 20:31.07 | Grumbler | no, i am user, so i am at the mercy of the dam software people and dung they write |
| 20:31.51 | spldart | lol |
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| 20:33.04 | bryjen | s/build/built out/ |
| 20:33.15 | bryjen | ~spell built |
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| 20:34.30 | Grumbler | heh |
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| 20:59.49 | JeffM2502 | purple_cow, ? |
| 21:00.35 | purple_cow | JeffM2502: it is teh suck |
| 21:01.31 | JeffM2502 | ahhh |
| 21:01.32 | purple_cow | slow, terribly documented, missing a couple widgets i'd like, and irreperably fugly |
| 21:01.38 | JeffM2502 | so return of pannel manager? |
| 21:01.56 | purple_cow | yeah, for now :P |
| 21:03.07 | purple_cow | the *best* part is that cegui makes you use render-to-texture for some reason, which drops my laptop into software mode |
| 21:03.18 | JeffM2502 | ewwwwwww |
| 21:03.34 | JeffM2502 | any other engines you want to look at? |
| 21:03.41 | JeffM2502 | before we get to far? |
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| 21:06.02 | purple_cow | other engines? you mean gui-like? |
| 21:07.33 | Grumbler | hybrid-V8 |
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| 21:15.26 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone_] by ChanServ |
| 21:17.15 | purple_cow | for 3d engines, i'm muchly fond of ogre. as far as gui stuff goes, i think ogre restricts us a lot. might be able to wrangle something in there with a plugin though |
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| 21:34.33 | *** part/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@63.147.94.151) |
| 21:38.01 | rkr | Is there any intent to provide a feature like a physics driver which can be subjected to rotation/spinning? |
| 21:38.14 | rkr | (Or, conversely, something like a "spin" that can work on physics drivers...) |
| 21:40.50 | Pimpi | GvzEvxre: i see the advantages of configuring the way a server gets listed via perms, though a -dontlistme commandlineoption (however implemented) would still be fine. Serversetup should still be kinda easy. |
| 21:41.42 | menotume | g'nite Pimpi |
| 21:42.58 | menotume | I suppose a -dontlistme cl option could just make it set AD goup to 'NOONE' if groups are defined in the config |
| 21:43.24 | menotume | err, gruops are NOT defined in the config |
| 21:57.39 | SportyGal | ~seen bzflagwiz |
| 21:57.39 | ibot | bzflagwiz <~wiz@12-217-171-34.client.mchsi.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 74d 16h 18m 32s ago, saying: 'hrm - it chopped off a whole bunch of the post...'. |
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| 21:59.27 | spldart | ~weather ksgs |
| 21:59.48 | spldart | or maybe it was |
| 21:59.53 | spldart | ~weather ksgr |
| 22:01.57 | spldart | time to go home :) |
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| 23:55.02 | menotume | hmmm, lilo is Waallops-happy :) |