| 00:00.35 | Patlabor221 | well you never see the servers that are not of your own version |
| 00:01.10 | Patlabor221 | so that message will ONLY come up when somone types in a specific address |
| 00:01.18 | Patlabor221 | and they shoudl ONLY be doing that when they know the version |
| 00:01.25 | DTRemenak | or has it in their config file |
| 00:01.28 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 00:01.31 | DTRemenak | or gets it from a list |
| 00:01.34 | DTRemenak | or... |
| 00:01.36 | Patlabor221 | so maybe the server shoudl send a build version back |
| 00:02.19 | Patlabor221 | or change the list server, get tim to run another one, and make the proto version longer |
| 00:02.49 | Patlabor221 | making it an A and haveing the app version be .10 is just as confusting as have the proto version be 20 |
| 00:02.51 | DTRemenak | why is it fixed-length anyway? |
| 00:03.04 | Patlabor221 | so it can parse the string |
| 00:03.11 | Patlabor221 | probably was just easyest at the time |
| 00:03.13 | DTRemenak | isn't it all url-encoded? |
| 00:03.27 | Patlabor221 | it looks for BZFS then gets the 4 characters after that |
| 00:03.31 | Patlabor221 | I think it is |
| 00:03.39 | Patlabor221 | but it gets decoded on the server end |
| 00:03.50 | Patlabor221 | like I say, change the list server to make it better |
| 00:03.56 | Patlabor221 | then have tim run a 3rd one |
| 00:04.02 | Patlabor221 | cus you can't change the existing one |
| 00:04.11 | Patlabor221 | or the 1.10 people get hozed |
| 00:05.19 | Patlabor221 | you could make it send binary in those fields not text |
| 00:05.52 | Patlabor221 | then have the client translate it to a x.x.x nubmer |
| 00:06.03 | Patlabor221 | that gives 256 subsets per version |
| 00:06.11 | *** join/#bzflag amathis (~chris@amathis.registered) |
| 00:06.30 | Patlabor221 | would be non human readable in raw form tho |
| 00:09.21 | Patlabor221 | like "that version that has tetras" |
| 00:09.42 | Patlabor221 | and then "yet another tetra version" |
| 00:10.05 | trepan | too many bloody tetras, v2.1 |
| 00:10.11 | Patlabor221 | no, you can't use numbers |
| 00:10.15 | Patlabor221 | just words |
| 00:10.28 | trepan | too many bloody tetras, version two point one |
| 00:10.29 | Patlabor221 | numbers confuse the mamals |
| 00:11.00 | DTRemenak | hm, it wouldn't need any list server modification, it's already sent as "GET %s?action=ADD&nameport=%s&version=%s&gameinfo=%s&build=%s&title=%s HTTP/1.1\r\n" |
| 00:11.12 | Patlabor221 | ok |
| 00:11.17 | Patlabor221 | then code that sucker on up |
| 00:11.17 | DTRemenak | so &version=BZFS1.11.10 should work |
| 00:11.38 | Patlabor221 | what does the client get back in the list of servers? |
| 00:11.42 | Patlabor221 | is the problem in that code? |
| 00:11.56 | DTRemenak | dunno, haven't looked there yet |
| 00:12.08 | Patlabor221 | I remember I made the string longer and it geeked |
| 00:12.12 | DTRemenak | I can change the client, I just didn't want to bust the list server |
| 00:12.25 | Patlabor221 | I know the list server looks for BZFS |
| 00:13.21 | CIA-10 | opencombat: 03jeffm2501 * 10worldtest/nivie/Input/ (inc/Input.h src/Input.cpp): add in a "get key status" to the input manager |
| 00:15.41 | Patlabor221 | what is version stored as in the database? |
| 00:15.45 | Patlabor221 | does it have a max len? |
| 00:16.40 | DTRemenak | dunno, ask TimRiker |
| 00:17.38 | *** join/#bzflag LayZee (~508ee4ac@rw08.de) |
| 00:18.17 | LayZee | aloha |
| 00:18.24 | Patlabor221 | hello |
| 00:18.25 | LayZee | all |
| 00:18.26 | CIA-10 | opencombat: 03jeffm2501 * 10worldtest/openCombatTerainTest/ (5 files in 2 dirs): get the world rendering |
| 00:18.44 | LayZee | an admin from http://bzbb.bzflag.org here? |
| 00:19.01 | Patlabor221 | yes |
| 00:19.13 | LayZee | why i cant join? |
| 00:19.51 | Patlabor221 | when did you try, and what username are you trying? |
| 00:20.27 | LayZee | i try all days but i cant log in dont know why? im registered |
| 00:20.35 | LayZee | LayZee is my username |
| 00:20.43 | LayZee | there |
| 00:20.51 | Patlabor221 | you never responded to the activation mail the board sent you |
| 00:20.54 | DTRemenak | Patlabor221: "version varchar(9)" |
| 00:20.56 | Patlabor221 | did you use a vail mail address |
| 00:21.01 | Patlabor221 | DTRemenak, that sucks |
| 00:21.24 | DTRemenak | hm, can that be changed while the db is running? |
| 00:21.24 | LayZee | yes |
| 00:21.40 | Patlabor221 | did you hit the link in the mail to activate? |
| 00:22.02 | LayZee | nah so no i didnt get a mail |
| 00:22.24 | Patlabor221 | send me a mail from that account right now and I'll activate you |
| 00:22.31 | LayZee | sry no little bit drunkn ;) |
| 00:24.16 | LayZee | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:24.17 | LayZee | Sorry, but your password cannot be retrieved because your account is currently inactive. Please contact the forum administrator for more information. |
| 00:25.18 | Patlabor221 | send me a mail |
| 00:25.31 | Patlabor221 | your account can not be activated till we get a mail |
| 00:25.47 | Patlabor221 | if you mail me I can manualy activate the account. |
| 00:26.13 | Patlabor221 | just send a message to jeff@gibbscam.com from the account you registerd with and I'll activate you |
| 00:27.10 | Patlabor221 | or hell, I just sent you a message, just reply to it |
| 00:27.11 | LayZee | ok ready |
| 00:27.44 | Patlabor221 | your account is now active |
| 00:27.55 | LayZee | ty |
| 00:27.59 | Patlabor221 | sure |
| 00:28.14 | Patlabor221 | purple_cow / scanline ping |
| 00:28.50 | Patlabor221 | DTR, the database may automacitly increase to hold more, it did it with the int for ibots karma count |
| 00:29.14 | Patlabor221 | you can try it, maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. maybe it'll kill the list server :) |
| 00:29.15 | DTRemenak | mm, true |
| 00:29.19 | DTRemenak | hehe :) |
| 00:33.00 | learner | hrm.. proto version number at 0000? I miss something? |
| 00:34.12 | Patlabor221 | yes, yes you did |
| 00:34.14 | learner | there was information conveyed when the network protocol number matched the release revision of the change (instantly) |
| 00:34.27 | Patlabor221 | well version is now 1.11.10 |
| 00:34.29 | learner | not a big deal, but seems like a step back |
| 00:34.35 | Patlabor221 | can't do that in 4 chars |
| 00:34.38 | DTRemenak | learner: read the last hour or so of conversation |
| 00:34.42 | Patlabor221 | I said 1120 |
| 00:34.48 | Patlabor221 | some watned 111a |
| 00:34.52 | Patlabor221 | others wanted 0000 |
| 00:35.11 | learner | hrm |
| 00:35.30 | learner | 00 00 00 .. 256 256 256 |
| 00:35.32 | Patlabor221 | best would be to increase the size the string can be |
| 00:35.46 | Patlabor221 | but it's set to 9 chars now in the db |
| 00:35.57 | Patlabor221 | know if SQL lite will auto bump it up? |
| 00:36.25 | learner | bz 00 00 00 and a reserved pad for later perhaps |
| 00:36.44 | Patlabor221 | then it's non human readable |
| 00:36.58 | Patlabor221 | so who cares what it is, and it's just as confusing as 1120 |
| 00:37.01 | learner | bz011110 |
| 00:37.14 | learner | bz011002 |
| 00:37.14 | Patlabor221 | the list server looks for BZFS |
| 00:37.20 | Patlabor221 | specifcly |
| 00:37.25 | DTRemenak | learner: BZFSX.Y.Z? |
| 00:37.35 | DTRemenak | make it variable-length |
| 00:37.40 | learner | the list server could be changed to whatever this release |
| 00:37.56 | DTRemenak | BZFS1.11.10 is most informative imho |
| 00:38.01 | Patlabor221 | it is |
| 00:38.01 | learner | so we should probably just make it what we really want it to be |
| 00:38.06 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 00:38.11 | Patlabor221 | if you can get the server to accept it |
| 00:38.16 | DTRemenak | list server change should be non-breaking |
| 00:38.16 | Patlabor221 | try it, see what breaks :) |
| 00:38.24 | learner | Patlabor221, you mean tim right? |
| 00:38.53 | Patlabor221 | well if sqlite bumps up the storage automaticly, like it did for Tim's Karama, we could just start sending it biger strings |
| 00:39.01 | Patlabor221 | and make sure the client knows to parse it correctly |
| 00:39.10 | Patlabor221 | the old clients don't care cus they dont' get to see those versions |
| 00:40.02 | learner | that is true\ |
| 00:40.13 | Patlabor221 | so try it in a test and see what breaks :) |
| 00:40.31 | learner | BZFS#.#.# seems reasonable to me |
| 00:40.40 | learner | maybe do what ssh does even |
| 00:41.12 | Patlabor221 | take a long time then crash? |
| 00:41.18 | learner | BZFS-#.#.#-StringIdentifier |
| 00:41.34 | learner | SSH-1.99-OpenSSH_3.6.1p1+CAN-2003-0693 |
| 00:41.44 | DTRemenak | that seems a bit excessive |
| 00:41.56 | DTRemenak | the protocol version is what we're looking at, anyway |
| 00:41.57 | learner | SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_3.8p1c_ARL |
| 00:42.02 | Patlabor221 | BZFS-1.11.10-theonewithtetras ? |
| 00:42.13 | DTRemenak | don't want to send a bunch of junk with the prot version |
| 00:42.24 | learner | well, we certainly wouldn't need the rest right now.. but to plan for maybe utilizing that later wouldn't be bad |
| 00:42.33 | learner | you can do just about anything with that format |
| 00:42.50 | DTRemenak | matching is simpler without the extra junk |
| 00:42.58 | DTRemenak | I can't think of any reason for the extra string |
| 00:43.25 | learner | BZFS-1.10.2-BZFlag_1.11.3 |
| 00:43.27 | Patlabor221 | tho it sounds like it'd be easy to add later if we ned |
| 00:43.27 | DTRemenak | if the protocol matches, you can join the server and it will tell you its full version anyway |
| 00:43.57 | Patlabor221 | then perhaps the code should build the proto version from the app version |
| 00:44.00 | Patlabor221 | if they are going to be locked |
| 00:44.04 | learner | you could identify the bzflag release number (again what openssh does) |
| 00:44.13 | learner | which is also useful |
| 00:44.21 | Patlabor221 | ohh I know why we can't do that |
| 00:44.29 | DTRemenak | learner: why would you want to? |
| 00:44.32 | Patlabor221 | DTRemenak, there are a LOT of versions where the proto dosn't match |
| 00:44.37 | Patlabor221 | 1.10.6 |
| 00:44.48 | Patlabor221 | it uses proto 1100 |
| 00:44.56 | Patlabor221 | or 1900 I think |
| 00:44.59 | DTRemenak | 1910 |
| 00:45.03 | Patlabor221 | ok |
| 00:45.14 | Patlabor221 | but yeah we DON'T BUmp proto then |
| 00:45.20 | Patlabor221 | so it's not the build you need |
| 00:45.26 | Patlabor221 | or would even posibly want |
| 00:45.36 | Patlabor221 | we just generaly bump in dev |
| 00:45.51 | Patlabor221 | tho there is use in seeing the version we bumped it in |
| 00:45.56 | learner | only the first part of the string would be the network proto still .. the latter would just be there for querying the server without connecting |
| 00:45.58 | Patlabor221 | so making the proto be x.x.x is not bad |
| 00:46.25 | Patlabor221 | learner, if we make it just look for the 3 numbers, you can add whatever you want later at the end |
| 00:46.31 | Patlabor221 | it won't care |
| 00:46.31 | learner | right |
| 00:46.49 | learner | that's sort of what I meant actually |
| 00:46.52 | Patlabor221 | do DTRemenak just do what you were gonna do, it'll work with what he's saying if we ever have to do |
| 00:46.57 | Patlabor221 | so not do :) |
| 00:47.02 | Patlabor221 | do not so even :) |
| 00:47.08 | Patlabor221 | bah my brain is melted |
| 00:47.09 | learner | just don't assume that nothing else follows :) |
| 00:47.19 | DTRemenak | Patlabor221: wtf are you trying to say? ;) |
| 00:47.24 | Patlabor221 | I have no idea |
| 00:47.34 | Patlabor221 | just do what you were saying :) |
| 00:47.39 | DTRemenak | ok |
| 00:47.53 | Patlabor221 | I'd make a change local, send up a version to the list server that is longer then 4 and see what it does |
| 00:48.12 | DTRemenak | yup |
| 00:48.28 | Patlabor221 | but then I am also thinking about using non-planar polygons as a core rendering primitive |
| 00:49.10 | learner | mmm womens beach volleyball |
| 00:50.27 | *** join/#bzflag amathis (~18a5bda9@procyon.noodleroni.com) |
| 00:50.59 | lan56 | the problem with womens bech volleyball in the olympics is that they all look like they are in their 50's |
| 00:51.10 | *** part/#bzflag david_v (~david_v@c-68b071d5.17-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 00:51.15 | lan56 | the sport is good, but it ends right there :) |
| 00:51.31 | Patlabor221 | it's a sport? |
| 00:51.38 | lan56 | well, activity |
| 00:51.49 | lan56 | the sport of volleyball I mean |
| 00:52.22 | lan56 | volleyball doesn't show as much talent, as say, running or gymnastics, or basketball |
| 00:52.24 | lan56 | IMHO |
| 00:52.27 | Patlabor221 | it's a sport? |
| 00:52.33 | lan56 | volleyball is a sport |
| 00:52.42 | Patlabor221 | gymansicis is a sport? |
| 00:52.45 | SportChick | grrrrrrr stop saying my name |
| 00:52.52 | lan56 | heh |
| 00:52.59 | lan56 | gymnastics is something I don't know what |
| 00:53.00 | Patlabor221 | I thought it was just for creepy guys to look at little girls |
| 00:53.07 | lan56 | yeah right |
| 00:53.12 | lan56 | gymnastics is artwork |
| 00:53.19 | Patlabor221 | gold metal leering |
| 00:53.28 | lan56 | so is weightlifting |
| 00:53.31 | lan56 | both artwork |
| 00:53.31 | learner | sport? huh? wha? |
| 00:53.51 | Patlabor221 | it's in her name |
| 00:53.52 | Patlabor221 | sport |
| 00:53.53 | Patlabor221 | sport |
| 00:53.55 | Patlabor221 | sport |
| 00:54.04 | lan56 | weightlifting shows muscle and determination, gymnastics does too as well as perfection |
| 00:54.08 | lan56 | so does running |
| 00:54.18 | lan56 | volleyball is fun, but not artwork like that |
| 00:54.32 | Patlabor221 | I thoughtweightlifting showed how good you were at passing drug tests? |
| 00:54.40 | lan56 | nah, that's baseball |
| 00:54.52 | Patlabor221 | it's not in the olympics is it? |
| 00:55.01 | Patlabor221 | and the US allways wins the world series in that |
| 00:55.02 | lan56 | baseball is in the olympics |
| 00:55.19 | amathis | judo is the ultimate mind/body sport |
| 00:55.30 | lan56 | wait, gymnastics doesn't contain little girls, it has older college teenagers and young 20's |
| 00:55.36 | lan56 | same with the men |
| 00:56.02 | Patlabor221 | you watch men? |
| 00:56.11 | amathis | :) |
| 00:56.17 | amathis | haha |
| 00:56.18 | lan56 | I watch men's sports only for the entertainment of the sport and thats it |
| 00:56.30 | lan56 | don't you>? |
| 00:56.31 | Patlabor221 | http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20040822 |
| 00:56.37 | learner | there are men? |
| 00:56.58 | learner | mmmmmia hammmm |
| 00:57.06 | Patlabor221 | she is very nice |
| 00:57.09 | lan56 | so you don't watch mens basketball, or baseball? |
| 00:57.14 | Patlabor221 | no |
| 00:57.22 | lan56 | that's unbelievable |
| 00:57.39 | learner | men's what?? this is the olympics |
| 00:57.41 | Patlabor221 | not really |
| 00:58.01 | lan56 | how about womens basketball or baseball? |
| 00:58.17 | amathis | yeah, THATS entertaining.. |
| 00:58.28 | lan56 | they can't dunk, not very entertaining |
| 00:58.28 | amathis | most sports are boring |
| 00:58.43 | lan56 | I've never seen a woman dunk |
| 00:58.49 | amathis | cept' for college football |
| 00:59.16 | Patlabor221 | you must not get out much |
| 00:59.30 | amathis | not really.. |
| 00:59.43 | amathis | besides school and my anti-soical life, I have little time |
| 01:00.09 | lan56 | isn't it still summer break for you kids? |
| 01:00.17 | amathis | no |
| 01:00.22 | Patlabor221 | amathis, wasn't really talking to you |
| 01:00.27 | amathis | oh |
| 01:00.28 | lan56 | hah |
| 01:00.35 | Patlabor221 | lan56 must not get out much |
| 01:00.42 | lan56 | how so? |
| 01:00.51 | Patlabor221 | never seeing a drunk lady |
| 01:01.04 | lan56 | never seen a lady who could *dunk* |
| 01:01.04 | amathis | haha |
| 01:01.07 | lan56 | basketball |
| 01:01.11 | lan56 | not *drunk* |
| 01:01.23 | amathis | hqh |
| 01:01.28 | lan56 | I've seen tons of people drunk |
| 01:01.35 | lan56 | I've been drunk myself |
| 01:01.39 | Patlabor221 | ahh |
| 01:01.43 | Patlabor221 | you have |
| 01:01.44 | Patlabor221 | wow |
| 01:01.52 | Patlabor221 | how was it? |
| 01:02.04 | amathis | did a few hairs pop up on your chest..? *snicker* |
| 01:02.07 | lan56 | don't get too excited, I don't do it often |
| 01:02.21 | lan56 | it was fun while drunk |
| 01:02.24 | amathis | bwaha |
| 01:02.44 | lan56 | I don't get faint, knocked out drunk |
| 01:03.26 | Patlabor221 | faint? |
| 01:03.42 | lan56 | faint, get knocked out, lose consiousness |
| 01:03.54 | Patlabor221 | the english term is "pass out" |
| 01:04.02 | lan56 | what language was I speaking? |
| 01:04.03 | Patlabor221 | the british term is "to get pissed" |
| 01:04.17 | Patlabor221 | I dono, I rarely know what your trying to say :) |
| 01:04.26 | lan56 | I rarely know myself :) |
| 01:05.04 | amathis | hrm.. |
| 01:05.15 | lan56 | :\ == hrm, IIRC |
| 01:05.30 | amathis | some kids went into a abandoned paint factory, and thought it cool to stick their joints in a tub of mercury and smoke it. |
| 01:05.31 | trepan | also thankful the heavy drinking days are done |
| 01:05.47 | amathis | they are now veggies |
| 01:06.01 | lan56 | some kids are so stupid it's rediculous |
| 01:06.09 | Patlabor221 | wtf, you hafve abandonded factorys, with tubs of chemicals siting out? |
| 01:06.11 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/Dev-C++/bzadmin.dev: config.h is in ., don't forget to look there |
| 01:06.27 | bryjen | amathis: you are a ray of sunshine |
| 01:06.32 | lan56 | I wonder sometimes what the parents of such stupid kids are like |
| 01:06.38 | lan56 | why didn't they teach them better? |
| 01:06.46 | Patlabor221 | what is wrong with that state to let that happen? |
| 01:06.51 | amathis | lan, where do you live? |
| 01:06.55 | lan56 | glendale |
| 01:06.56 | DTRemenak | ~lart Patlabor221 |
| 01:06.58 | Patlabor221 | is your hasmat team , a guy with a bunch of spounges |
| 01:07.09 | bryjen | towelette |
| 01:07.11 | bryjen | s |
| 01:07.17 | Patlabor221 | and some hungry dogs |
| 01:07.22 | amathis | Pat, it was out in the middle of nowhere, outside of town |
| 01:07.26 | Patlabor221 | so |
| 01:07.39 | amathis | ppl arent really bright. |
| 01:07.47 | Patlabor221 | poor amathis's enviroment |
| 01:07.55 | amathis | evidentally the victims were skipping chemistry |
| 01:08.02 | lan56 | that's for sure :) |
| 01:08.16 | Patlabor221 | you should nominate them for the darwin awards |
| 01:08.18 | amathis | 'Cleansing the Gene Pool' |
| 01:08.26 | amathis | :-P |
| 01:08.34 | amathis | bryjen, noo.. |
| 01:08.50 | amathis | bryjen, really happened |
| 01:09.50 | Patlabor221 | got him :) |
| 01:09.59 | lan56 | how? |
| 01:10.05 | Patlabor221 | via NINJA! |
| 01:10.13 | lan56 | that scared him? |
| 01:10.21 | Patlabor221 | dude it's NINJA! |
| 01:10.23 | DTRemenak | hahaha |
| 01:10.33 | bryjen | You ended his file! |
| 01:10.33 | lan56 | it's a ninja, not very scary :) |
| 01:10.35 | bryjen | ;) |
| 01:10.41 | Patlabor221 | totaly |
| 01:10.46 | Patlabor221 | NINJA! style |
| 01:10.47 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * 10bzflag/PORTING: update a bit |
| 01:10.55 | lan56 | well,l let me see if I could scare some people |
| 01:11.13 | *** kick/#bzflag [Godzilla!~JeffM@208.48.199.221] by Patlabor221 (Patlabor221) |
| 01:11.13 | *** join/#bzflag Godzilla (lan56@dialup-4.233.38.69.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net) |
| 01:11.18 | DTRemenak | haha |
| 01:11.23 | Patlabor221 | gozilla isn't scary |
| 01:11.28 | Godzilla | patlabor was so scared he made me go away :) |
| 01:11.57 | Patlabor221 | http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20040820 |
| 01:11.59 | bryjen | but he'd soo squash your ninja-ass |
| 01:12.00 | DTRemenak | round 1: ninja wins solidly, no big surprise here... |
| 01:12.12 | Patlabor221 | naw, godzilla is to slow |
| 01:12.21 | Patlabor221 | ninja would totaly hop all over him |
| 01:12.27 | Evil_Superman | that's better |
| 01:12.28 | Patlabor221 | and ninja has powers of telportation |
| 01:12.41 | Patlabor221 | don't you mean bizaro? |
| 01:12.56 | Evil_Superman | evil_superman is fast, smart, but evil :) |
| 01:13.07 | Patlabor221 | yet he has his weakness |
| 01:13.13 | Evil_Superman | what? |
| 01:13.25 | Evil_Superman | publicity while changing to superman? |
| 01:13.28 | *** mode/#bzflag [+b *!*@*.233.38.69.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net] by NINJA |
| 01:13.43 | *** mode/#bzflag [-b *!*@*.233.38.69.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net] by Patlabor221 |
| 01:13.50 | Evil_Superman | I have too many powers |
| 01:13.51 | Patlabor221 | totaly Ninjaed him |
| 01:13.52 | Evil_Superman | I can remove bans |
| 01:14.11 | Patlabor221 | really? |
| 01:14.16 | Patlabor221 | try it? |
| 01:14.22 | Evil_Superman | on who? |
| 01:14.26 | Patlabor221 | anyone |
| 01:14.30 | Patlabor221 | just give it a go |
| 01:14.31 | Evil_Superman | I just removed my own ban :) |
| 01:14.35 | Patlabor221 | you did? |
| 01:14.46 | Evil_Superman | I was so scary, you did it for me: ) |
| 01:14.48 | Evil_Superman | *:) |
| 01:14.53 | Patlabor221 | huhh huh |
| 01:15.02 | bryjen | there was no kick in the bad |
| 01:15.08 | bryjen | s/bad/ban/ |
| 01:15.24 | Patlabor221 | that there wasn't |
| 01:15.34 | Evil_Superman | I have no explanation |
| 01:16.11 | lan56 | hah, once I become lan56 he then gets scared :) |
| 01:32.44 | *** join/#bzflag bugman (~user22492@c-24-2-242-88.client.comcast.net) |
| 01:33.02 | bugman | hey! |
| 01:35.28 | lan56 | ok |
| 01:35.33 | learner | uh hey |
| 01:45.23 | *** join/#bzflag wizart (~wizard@dsl-082-083-135-132.arcor-ip.net) |
| 01:46.29 | *** join/#bzflag wizart (~wizard@dsl-082-083-135-132.arcor-ip.net) |
| 02:03.45 | TimRiker | repeat after me: the network protocol version has _nothing_ to do with the program version. |
| 02:04.49 | learner | TimRiker: are you just now tuning in? :) |
| 02:05.01 | TimRiker | yup |
| 02:05.22 | TimRiker | and reading some of the BZFSx.x.x sillyness. |
| 02:07.10 | learner | What's so silly about it? There is informational value in having the protocol version match the version that set that version |
| 02:07.38 | learner | It's rather common with protocol'd apps, ssh (as was later mentioned) is a really good example that works pretty well |
| 02:07.47 | learner | (the protocol part, not the whole thing) |
| 02:08.16 | TimRiker | it implies that the protocol changes with each versioned release which may or may not be true. |
| 02:08.34 | learner | but it doesn't imply that.. ?! |
| 02:08.51 | TimRiker | it also implies that the version changes with each protocol change, which also may or may not be true. |
| 02:08.52 | learner | it's still the protocol version |
| 02:10.08 | TimRiker | and only the protocol version. |
| 02:10.10 | learner | well, for the latter, that's not really an important case since those protocol changes are all on dev versions (since each non dev is auto-incremented) |
| 02:10.42 | learner | and it simply doesn't imply that the protocol changes with each version.. |
| 02:10.47 | TimRiker | it got changed to 0000 correct? that will do just fine. |
| 02:12.09 | learner | what's the problem? why use some mostly meaningless integer? |
| 02:12.25 | learner | following what other service apps do would be a good thing to do |
| 02:12.47 | learner | and it costs nothing really |
| 02:14.54 | bryjen | just from watching the discussion, having the protocol version look like the app version seems to cause different people to make different assumptions about their relationship |
| 02:16.02 | learner | sure, but that's only because it's not defined well yet -- define it and that goes away |
| 02:16.13 | learner | it's well defined for most services |
| 02:16.18 | bryjen | only if people know the definition |
| 02:16.37 | learner | sure, but the alternative is make it effectively mean nothing |
| 02:16.50 | bryjen | they must read the docs (that first must exist :) ) and they must understand |
| 02:17.06 | learner | sure |
| 02:17.26 | learner | hence why following what some of the other common daemons do would be a good thing |
| 02:18.24 | learner | I see "SSH-1.99-OpenSSH_3.6.1p1" and I instantly know that it was openssh 3.6.1 patch 1, version 2 of the protocol with support for 1 |
| 02:18.34 | bryjen | the incremented integer still serves the purpose of letting the client and server know they're speaking the same language |
| 02:18.42 | learner | there is lots of information convey where the protocol is simply "1.99" |
| 02:19.06 | learner | sure, but so does the alternative being proposed |
| 02:19.26 | bryjen | i don't see "version 2 of the protocol with support for 1" in that string |
| 02:19.28 | learner | it just also has the added benefit of more information for those that know what the string means |
| 02:20.37 | learner | and you don't have to know that -- i do because I use the ssh daemon enough -- to anyone else it's perfectly enough to know that it's just protocol version 1.99 |
| 02:21.55 | bryjen | what you're wanting could also be a plain text message sent by the server if it decided a proto version sent by the client is incompatable |
| 02:22.14 | bryjen | "Go get version foo" |
| 02:22.25 | learner | actually, I'm not even considering the client connecting |
| 02:22.37 | learner | I'm thinking about just what's conveyed if I telnet to 5154 |
| 02:22.57 | learner | telnet to port 22 on any server running ssh, you know what ssh they are running |
| 02:23.12 | learner | that is incredibly valueable information |
| 02:23.29 | learner | and I don't need an ssh client, don't need to fully connect/authenticate, etc |
| 02:24.20 | learner | even apache does this "Apache/1.3.29" |
| 02:24.28 | bryjen | but i see what youre getting at |
| 02:26.06 | bryjen | does the ssh client actually parse the textual version, or is it duplicated in binary in the protcol somewhere? |
| 02:26.16 | learner | someone comes in and says they have a server running on some port -- we telnet to that port and know immediately what version they are running, without having to find a protocol-compatible client, without having to have them run another bzfs -v (hoping it's the same one that's actually running), etc .. it will be what is reported |
| 02:26.25 | bryjen | ugh. n/m that would be silly |
| 02:27.01 | learner | ssh only parses the 1.99 part for protocol compatibility |
| 02:27.14 | learner | the rest is effectively thrown away as it should be |
| 02:27.26 | learner | it's just a server signature |
| 02:31.07 | bryjen | so maybe this should be looked at as "Adding a server signature" to the initial handshake instead of "Changing the protocol version format" ;) |
| 02:31.28 | Nidhoggr | people really need to start treating bzfs in regards to development. if we keep pandering to the dos crowd, it'll never get anywhere. |
| 02:31.50 | Nidhoggr | it needs to be treated like a regular daemon. |
| 02:33.02 | Nidhoggr | it needs to respond in a standard way so you can telnet to the port and not have to use a client to get data. |
| 02:33.19 | Nidhoggr | even the evil ircd is capable of that. :) |
| 02:33.27 | learner | amen, preach brother nid |
| 02:33.52 | Nidhoggr | then again, I've been saying this for a year and 6 months. :) |
| 02:34.51 | Nidhoggr | it needs to really start to mature. we want to put all this stuff in it like state awareness, etc., for cheating, but that's going to take multithreading and a more firm foundation. |
| 02:35.40 | Nidhoggr | ugh. I wish our gardeners hadn't retired from gardening. |
| 02:35.51 | Nidhoggr | hard to find a good new gardener. |
| 02:36.17 | Nidhoggr | well, I guess mowing in 102 degree heat is good for weight loss. :) |
| 02:37.07 | learner | bryjen: maybe that is the main distinction .. I'm clamoring for a signature more than what the protocol "version" is -- it would be useful if it matches, but more important is the app version actually which is not part of the protocol |
| 02:37.39 | Nidhoggr | it'd be SO cool if you could telnet to the port and get something similar to the smtp banner with version and possibly other info. |
| 02:37.52 | learner | mm hmm.. |
| 02:38.38 | Nidhoggr | 200 bzflag.secretplace.us (spirals by bzdoug) version 1.14 ready |
| 02:38.39 | Nidhoggr | :) |
| 02:39.07 | Nidhoggr | :) |
| 02:40.33 | Nidhoggr | seriously... start treating it like a unix-like daemon and it will mature almost on it's onw. |
| 02:40.37 | Nidhoggr | own |
| 02:40.39 | learner | Nidhoggr, that sort of well-defined protocol (like smtp) would be difficult for bz since if it's a real client, it needs to be binary protocol real fast (and an all-text protocol only would be too slow) |
| 02:40.49 | Nidhoggr | true. |
| 02:41.04 | Nidhoggr | but you should be able to do lower level stuff with it in text mode. |
| 02:41.24 | learner | but something similar where maybe there's a simple text-mode query interface that is quickly recognized by the server |
| 02:41.26 | Nidhoggr | if not just identify if it responds properly. |
| 02:41.36 | learner | yeah |
| 02:41.43 | Nidhoggr | :) |
| 02:42.14 | learner | you could do some neat querying though.. basically the binary ping packet stuff could be available |
| 02:42.22 | Nidhoggr | well, to be fair, it has made some leaps in the last year and a half. |
| 02:42.45 | Nidhoggr | but it could go a long ways with the right attitude towards it. |
| 02:43.06 | Nidhoggr | or some general admin stuff like /sets and /bans and /playerlist, etc. |
| 02:43.19 | Nidhoggr | if you could properly identify yourself. |
| 02:43.22 | learner | heck, it could even be a mini read-only ftp/http server where there are standard documents you could GET |
| 02:43.29 | Nidhoggr | hrm. |
| 02:43.31 | Nidhoggr | interesting idea. |
| 02:43.35 | TimRiker | Nidhoggr: I hate the current hello interface. It's left over from the old protocol. |
| 02:43.46 | Nidhoggr | nod |
| 02:43.51 | Nidhoggr | I'm glad you're open to change. :) |
| 02:43.53 | TimRiker | it should be a string with a crlf at the end |
| 02:44.06 | TimRiker | but that would break things on the list server etc. |
| 02:44.37 | Nidhoggr | well, we're going to break protocol again anyway... so the "break the list server" is kinda moot. |
| 02:45.58 | Nidhoggr | gotta run to get dinner. only got an hour before we have to be back home. |
| 02:46.06 | TimRiker | http which we also use, does not helo. it sends info in subsequent header blocks. |
| 02:46.32 | Nidhoggr | back in a bit.... |
| 02:46.35 | TimRiker | k |
| 02:53.57 | *** join/#bzflag DTRemenak (~chatzilla@host-225-108.dialup.innercite.com) |
| 02:54.57 | trepan | gettin' dizzy from playing with texture matrices |
| 03:02.59 | *** join/#bzflag bugman (~user22492@c-24-2-242-88.client.comcast.net) |
| 03:03.54 | bugman | anyone use a linux bzflag world editor? |
| 03:06.35 | bugman | hello... |
| 03:08.12 | *** part/#bzflag bugman (~user22492@c-24-2-242-88.client.comcast.net) |
| 03:08.30 | DTRemenak | bugman: try http://sourceforge.net/projects/pybzedit |
| 03:08.37 | DTRemenak | pft, too late |
| 03:13.34 | *** join/#bzflag lan56 (lan56@dialup-4.233.44.225.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net) |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#bzflag Nidhoggr (mandrake@dragon.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#bzflag yoyox (~yoyox@65.39.216.149) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#bzflag orange (~mdw@orange.active.supporter.pdpc) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (~frank@p50820A9F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#bzflag menotume (~meno@menotume.active.supporter.pdpc) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#bzflag andy_ (~andy@ool-18bb3581.dyn.optonline.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#bzflag triclops (~caleb@c211-30-185-166.rivrw1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#bzflag lan56 (lan56@dialup-4.233.44.225.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.28 | *** join/#bzflag DTRemenak (~chatzilla@host-225-108.dialup.innercite.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.29 | *** join/#bzflag wizart (~wizard@dsl-082-083-135-132.arcor-ip.net) |
| 03:40.29 | *** join/#bzflag seisan (~sei@ool-18bb3581.dyn.optonline.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag lovebug (spooky@dsl-hkigw1ie1.dial.inet.fi) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag jacques (~jacques@cvo-cr1-200-11.peak.org) |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag PrezKennedy (~Matt@pcp035019pcs.aberdn01.md.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (timr@TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag purple_cow (~jupiter@navi.cs.colorado.edu) |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag JBdiGriz (~JBdiGriz@adsl-67-120-232-167.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** mode/#bzflag [+oooo Nidhoggr TimRiker purple_cow JBdiGriz] by irc.freenode.net |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag scanline (~micah@navi.cs.colorado.edu) |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag blast007_away (~blast@216.138.191.47) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag trepan (~trepan@trepan.registered) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag stibnite (is@bzadmin.hashmark.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag FredCods (~admin@tuxee.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag learner (~brlcad@brlcad.sustaining.supporter.pdpc) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag doughecka (~rooot@doughecka.registered) |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag Legoguy`school (~Lego|Desk@c-24-13-129-67.client.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag CIA-10 (~CIA@to.je.spocco.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag Quol_detached (~quol@65.39.216.149) |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag gonkulator (~brandon@c-24-9-235-7.client.comcast.net) |
| 03:40.30 | *** join/#bzflag mikelp (~phillim@pool-151-204-83-195.delv.east.verizon.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.48 | *** join/#bzflag guu (~Guu@adsl-64-173-106-3.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 03:40.48 | *** join/#bzflag Chestal (thilo@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:40.48 | *** mode/#bzflag [+ooo ChanServ learner Chestal] by irc.freenode.net |