| 00:00.29 | p0xy | mr hitler left when i asked everybody if they wanted his ip... |
| 00:00.29 | blast007 | :) |
| 00:00.31 | learner | there's apparently at least one impersonating SBSP too |
| 00:01.12 | p0xy | http://bzbb.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?p=20339#20339 |
| 00:18.06 | purple_cow | daddo? pybzflag? |
| 00:21.34 | Grumbler | heh |
| 00:22.18 | Grumbler | really nice interactive, some little things need tweaked, but some cool stuff, very fast as well |
| 00:23.38 | Grumbler | he does mention jeff myers and a david trowbridge in the credits....who are they? |
| 00:24.44 | david_v | jeff is Patlabor221 |
| 00:24.52 | david_v | and david is another dev |
| 00:25.07 | bryjen | trowbridge is a bot |
| 00:25.10 | david_v | uhm, did i understand your question correctly? |
| 00:25.21 | david_v | heh, never mind for trowbridge... :) |
| 00:25.30 | Grumbler | heh, i was playing stupid......which is real easy for me to do at times :) |
| 00:25.42 | david_v | i don't even have to play :) |
| 00:26.12 | purple_cow | learner: no, just that i just woke up and looked at the channel |
| 00:27.11 | scanline | someone finished pybzedit? |
| 00:27.44 | Grumbler | a from scratch version i believe |
| 00:28.57 | scanline | where is it? |
| 00:29.09 | blast007 | http://sourceforge.net/projects/pybzedit |
| 00:29.37 | scanline | haha, wxpython |
| 00:30.06 | Scipio- | hey gang, how do you specify a that only a max number of a certain flag is generated? |
| 00:30.19 | *** join/#bzflag lan56 (lan56@dialup-4.233.44.131.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net) |
| 00:30.20 | purple_cow | eww, wxpython |
| 00:30.49 | blast007 | hi lan56 |
| 00:30.54 | Grumbler | but it works |
| 00:31.28 | lan56 | hi blast |
| 00:31.46 | blast007 | 5KB/sec, whoohoo |
| 00:31.48 | scanline | eww |
| 00:32.00 | scanline | it's in one of those zip files that doesn't have any directories |
| 00:32.17 | blast007 | i'm getting the exe installer |
| 00:32.18 | scanline | and they spelled license wrong |
| 00:32.24 | lan56 | on the subject of wxpython, how does that work if python doesn't have inline assembly facilities? I mean, if python doesn't have abilities to create widgets, how does wxpython do it without assembly? |
| 00:32.38 | scanline | lan56: what does inline assembly have to do with anything? |
| 00:32.54 | purple_cow | hmm, wxGLCanvas |
| 00:32.56 | scanline | lan56: python has C extensions for talking to various widget toolkits |
| 00:32.58 | lan56 | well, that's the only way I can think that you can do things that a language doesn't have |
| 00:33.06 | lan56 | ahh |
| 00:33.20 | Grumbler | hmm, he needs to add spawn zones |
| 00:33.36 | blast007 | does it have world weapon support? |
| 00:35.08 | purple_cow | even then, inline assembly is a pretty useless feature if you've got libraries and system calls |
| 00:35.26 | Grumbler | blast007, yes, it looks like it |
| 00:35.27 | scanline | this 'pybzedit' seems kind of messy :P |
| 00:35.37 | learner | Scipio-: +f FLAGID{#} |
| 00:35.40 | blast007 | Grumbler, cool :) |
| 00:35.47 | scanline | has variable names like "tmpto0bzo" |
| 00:36.00 | lan56 | but C/C++, for example, can't do everything, so sooner or later when you want to do something it can't, you are going to have to use assembly |
| 00:36.07 | lan56 | take SDL for example |
| 00:36.47 | scanline | uhm |
| 00:37.01 | purple_cow | i don't think SDL has any assembly in it... |
| 00:37.05 | scanline | give me an example of something you can do in assembly but not C that SDL would need |
| 00:37.06 | lan56 | it sure does |
| 00:37.19 | scanline | purple_cow: maybe it has accelerated blitters, but there's nothing that requires assembly |
| 00:37.29 | purple_cow | scanline: maybe |
| 00:37.32 | lan56 | checking the position of a mouse |
| 00:37.45 | lan56 | I will show you a truckload of SDL source that uses asm |
| 00:37.57 | scanline | lan56: assembly wouldn't help at all, checking the mouse position is a matter of processing Xlib events |
| 00:38.03 | purple_cow | lan56: it doesn't use the raw device for that though. it can't on real operating systems |
| 00:38.03 | scanline | lan56: and Xlib is all in C |
| 00:38.25 | scanline | even if you are programming on the bare metal without an OS, you don't need assembly |
| 00:38.27 | *** join/#bzflag hobbsc (~hobbsc@cdm-66-233-91-54.slsp.cox-internet.com) |
| 00:38.31 | learner | sudh a silly argument |
| 00:38.41 | lan56 | but then how does xlib get it's data in turn? |
| 00:39.08 | lan56 | I can only imagine that in the end something has to use a convention that c/c++ doesn't have builtin |
| 00:39.08 | scanline | lan56: uses a socket |
| 00:39.20 | lan56 | what's that? |
| 00:39.26 | scanline | lan56: in the end there are syscalls, which do involve a line or two of assembly |
| 00:39.42 | scanline | but there are macros you can use to make bare syscalls from C |
| 00:40.01 | scanline | sockets.. like network sockets? that's how X clients talk to the X server |
| 00:40.18 | lan56 | but what I am saying is exactly that, it will end up needing to do something c/c++ can't do as builting |
| 00:40.24 | lan56 | s/builting/builtin |
| 00:40.37 | scanline | that's what libraries are for |
| 00:41.00 | purple_cow | looks like the only asm in SDL is some random mmx accelerated functions (blitter, etc) |
| 00:41.03 | scanline | the only time you'd *need* assembly is if you need an instruction you can't generate in C, like a trap |
| 00:41.04 | purple_cow | nothing important |
| 00:41.16 | lan56 | but what if the libraries use c/c++? |
| 00:41.30 | lan56 | that's what I am saying! |
| 00:41.51 | lan56 | I've been saying you use asm when you can't do something using builting bare c! |
| 00:41.54 | scanline | lan56: most libraries *do* use C or C++ |
| 00:42.08 | scanline | and I said that the only thing you can't do in C really is generate trap instructions |
| 00:42.23 | purple_cow | there's very little that the end-product programmer has to do in asm |
| 00:42.24 | purple_cow | if anything |
| 00:42.25 | scanline | but a line of inline assembly later you can |
| 00:42.49 | lan56 | alright, argument aside, just out of curiosity, how do you go about if you don't have xlib? |
| 00:43.03 | scanline | you open a socket to the X server and talk to it directly |
| 00:43.10 | scanline | using POSIX socket functions and such |
| 00:43.17 | lan56 | but what if you don't have posix? |
| 00:43.21 | lan56 | is there an equivalent? |
| 00:43.33 | scanline | if you don't have a libc you'd have to make syscalls directly |
| 00:43.41 | scanline | and for those you'd need to generate a trap instruction of some sort |
| 00:44.00 | scanline | but that's one single instruction.. everything else can be in C |
| 00:44.23 | scanline | memory-mapped hardware like most UARTS, video adaptors, and such can be accessed directly in C using pointers if you don't have an OS |
| 00:44.46 | purple_cow | lan56: if you have no libraries and no operating system, then things become hard |
| 00:44.59 | lan56 | alright, then for example let's say I want to check the position of the mouse, windows doesn't have a system call I can't think of to do this |
| 00:45.03 | lan56 | so what could I do? |
| 00:45.36 | scanline | windows has a win32 API call, which should translate to an OS trap of some kind |
| 00:45.54 | scanline | it's pretty much the same under any OS, linux's ways are just better documented |
| 00:46.01 | lan56 | I suppose the equivalent is directx |
| 00:46.10 | scanline | if you had no OS at all, you'd have to talk to the mouse hardware directly, probably just using memory-mapped I/O |
| 00:46.21 | purple_cow | and don't require a bazillion arguments, 3/4 of which are NULL :) |
| 00:46.30 | purple_cow | scanline: don't forget interrupt vectors :) |
| 00:46.33 | scanline | directx is separate from most of the win32 API.. you can check the mouse position without directx |
| 00:46.50 | scanline | purple_cow: yes, but in most hardware interrupts are optional.. so you can control them using pure C |
| 00:47.09 | scanline | if you do need interrupts, you'll need to modify the startup code (in assembly) a tiny bit |
| 00:47.28 | scanline | some compilers will let you write interrupt handlers in 100% C |
| 00:47.50 | Tupone | lan56: you cannot check mouse position without going to ask to windows, mouse hardware does not communicate it, just movement |
| 00:49.02 | *** join/#bzflag orchid (~bzgirl@orchid.registered) |
| 00:50.36 | learner | http://bbspot.com/News/2004/07/feng_shui_motherboard.html |
| 00:52.33 | purple_cow | heh |
| 00:52.35 | purple_cow | yay bbspot |
| 00:53.11 | scanline | learner: haha |
| 00:54.01 | scanline | I almost wouldn't be surprised if that was real :) |
| 00:57.52 | *** join/#bzflag lan56 (lan56@dialup-4.233.44.197.Dial1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net) |
| 00:58.00 | *** join/#bzflag DeathBarrel (~Death@cs2427127-108.houston.rr.com) |
| 01:05.32 | Scipio- | ? |
| 01:05.39 | Scipio- | anyone around can answer a config question |
| 01:06.05 | blast007 | i might be able to |
| 01:06.35 | Scipio- | how do you specify a max number of a specific flag while still using +s for randomness? |
| 01:07.09 | Scipio- | so say i want to limit all the superflags (GM/L/SW/G) to just 2, while making the rest of the flags random |
| 01:07.33 | blast007 | not sure if you can... |
| 01:07.55 | learner | sure you can |
| 01:08.10 | blast007 | even when using +s? |
| 01:08.34 | blast007 | I know you can specifiy a certain number with +f |
| 01:08.34 | Scipio- | the +f GM{2} makes the minim number of flags 2, not the max number of flags 2 |
| 01:08.37 | learner | the +f -f modifiers just increase/decrease flag counts |
| 01:09.07 | learner | so +f good|bad some quantity -f the additional GM/L/SW/G flags |
| 01:09.22 | Scipio- | huh? |
| 01:09.23 | blast007 | yeah, but the +s will add more of that flag at random, won't it? |
| 01:09.55 | Scipio- | the docs said -f will stop the flag from being spawned |
| 01:10.32 | Scipio- | oh, so you'd +f GM{2} and then -f the same flag so it wont be spawned by the +s ? |
| 01:10.42 | learner | not quite |
| 01:11.00 | learner | +s # will add # random superflags, right? |
| 01:11.07 | Scipio- | right |
| 01:11.11 | Scipio- | so say +s 30 |
| 01:11.52 | learner | you just said you only wanted 2, though.. |
| 01:12.40 | blast007 | he still wants random flags, but he want to like certain flags to only 2 |
| 01:12.45 | *** join/#bzflag Rayeh (rayeh@pcp08881808pcs.vnburn01.mi.comcast.net) |
| 01:12.56 | Scipio- | exactly |
| 01:13.13 | Scipio- | i want to limit the superflags to 2 each |
| 01:13.20 | Scipio- | while making the rest of flags random |
| 01:13.25 | learner | hrm |
| 01:13.58 | learner | that's a conflicting requirement |
| 01:14.13 | learner | if you specify +s 30 .. there are not 15 superflags.. |
| 01:14.58 | Scipio- | no, no, superflags |
| 01:15.18 | Scipio- | the ones that have white letters in the scoreboard |
| 01:15.23 | Scipio- | GM L SW and G |
| 01:16.26 | *** join/#bzflag Carnage_ (carn@dyn216-8-132-39.ADSL.mnsi.net) |