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| 00:16.29 | JBDiGriz | How many monkeys can you see? |
| 00:18.17 | learner | the ones in line at the towson apple store? probably/usually a lot -- that place is usually busy when the rest of the mall is empty |
| 00:19.27 | learner | and that's not counting the monkeys that follow me around all day and tell me to do things |
| 00:19.50 | MrApathyCream | was the swear list their idea? |
| 00:20.19 | learner | :) |
| 00:20.19 | JBDiGriz | Apple is opening a new store just a couple of miles away tonight. I was going to drop in, and maybe get a T-shirt and some dog tags. |
| 00:20.30 | learner | dog tags? |
| 00:20.51 | JBDiGriz | http://www.macrumors.com/ |
| 00:21.16 | learner | heh |
| 00:22.30 | JBDiGriz | dm and huh are on, I'm off to say hello. |
| 00:23.13 | doughecka | hmm |
| 00:23.18 | doughecka | it must be time |
| 00:23.50 | doughecka | hah, too bad there isnt an apple store neer |
| 00:35.51 | MrApathyCream | bool CustomWorld::read(const char *cmd, istream& input) |
| 00:35.51 | MrApathyCream | { |
| 00:35.51 | MrApathyCream | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.51 | MrApathyCream | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.51 | MrApathyCream | size *=2; |
| 00:35.52 | MrApathyCream | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:35.54 | MrApathyCream | -- |
| 00:35.57 | MrApathyCream | i wonder why we mult by 2 |
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| 00:37.00 | Carnage_ | Hi:-) |
| 00:37.18 | learner | good question mac |
| 00:37.57 | learner | sounds like a fudge-factor |
| 00:38.45 | MrApathyCream | i think it's a diameter/radius adjustment thingy |
| 00:38.53 | MrApathyCream | (for squares :) |
| 00:39.16 | learner | read: fudge-factor |
| 00:40.28 | learner | it's not area, as that would be something like size *= size; |
| 00:44.36 | MrApathyCream | no i think it's because sizes are determined by the radius for boxes etc |
| 00:44.42 | MrApathyCream | a 10 box is -10 to 10 |
| 00:47.39 | learner | yucky, but makes sense |
| 00:49.00 | learner | if that's implied, it still doesn't explain the _need_ for the *2.. just check +- size instead of recentering to positive coordinates |
| 00:49.34 | learner | if only to avoid questions like this down the road |
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| 01:00.52 | learner | to change the world dimensions on the fly? |
| 01:21.27 | MrApathyCream | yes, all you need to do is find the WallSceneNodes, and update their positions |
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| 01:35.58 | CIA | 03dbrosius * 12bzflag/win32 (bzflag.dsp): add dependency headers |
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| 01:45.58 | MrApathyCream | does anyone know whether QuadWallSceneNode is the node for the outside walls? |
| 01:46.07 | MrApathyCream | or is it PolyWallSceneNode |
| 01:51.44 | MrApathyCream | must be QuadWallSceneNode |
| 01:54.02 | MrApathyCream | hmmm but boxes have QuadWallSceneNode |
| 01:54.15 | MrApathyCream | wonder how you can determine which ones are walls |
| 01:54.20 | MrApathyCream | perhaps yu can't |
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| 02:04.18 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o patlabor221] by ChanServ |
| 02:04.36 | MrApathyCream | hey patlabor221 |
| 02:04.55 | patlabor221 | 'lo |
| 02:05.23 | MrApathyCream | bz scene list question for ya |
| 02:05.59 | MrApathyCream | is there any way to find the QuadWallSceneNodes that are associated with the outside walls? |
| 02:06.10 | MrApathyCream | when in the scene list |
| 02:06.26 | patlabor221 | check there texture |
| 02:06.35 | scanline | elegant |
| 02:06.51 | patlabor221 | and I think only the outside walls are quadwallscenenodres |
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| 02:07.05 | MrApathyCream | thats what i thought |
| 02:07.06 | MrApathyCream | but there are zillions of them |
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| 02:08.34 | MrApathyCream | threre are 25 unculled QuadWallSceneNode's in the scene |
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| 02:09.24 | MrApathyCream | wow |
| 02:09.48 | MrApathyCream | so i guess one could look at the textures, but that seems like a bad idea |
| 02:10.01 | MrApathyCream | prolly also the first 4 are the walls :) |
| 02:10.05 | MrApathyCream | but that's no good |
| 02:10.22 | MrApathyCream | maybe i could derive from QuadWallSceneNode |
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| 02:10.29 | MrApathyCream | and only use that for the walls |
| 02:10.43 | MrApathyCream | Or perhaps have the world hold a reference to the 4 |
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| 02:12.06 | patlabor221 | it may |
| 02:12.14 | patlabor221 | what do you need to do? |
| 02:12.26 | MrApathyCream | i want to reposition the walls |
| 02:13.44 | patlabor221 | how so? |
| 02:13.53 | MrApathyCream | on /set _worldSize XXX cmd |
| 02:14.17 | patlabor221 | the are sent from the server in the world objecgt |
| 02:14.38 | MrApathyCream | yes WallObstacle |
| 02:14.53 | MrApathyCream | generates them |
| 02:16.35 | patlabor221 | regen and resend |
| 02:16.44 | patlabor221 | blow out the list and remake it |
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| 02:18.45 | MrApathyCream | shesesh freenode having problems/ |
| 02:18.45 | patlabor221 | presetnly they would be booted |
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| 02:18.57 | patlabor221 | you gonna fix that? |
| 02:18.57 | MrApathyCream | well there's a 5 second grace period after /set commands |
| 02:18.57 | MrApathyCream | so as long as they move in that period.... |
| 02:18.57 | triclops | hub upgrade |
| 02:18.58 | patlabor221 | how will they know where to move too? |
| 02:19.03 | *** part/#bzflag KR (~k@cae168-234-054.sc.rr.com) |
| 02:19.16 | patlabor221 | how will they know where the new world edge is |
| 02:19.55 | MrApathyCream | well, you know how big it is so keep moving in till you find a spot, i guess |
| 02:20.33 | patlabor221 | how do they know the new size? |
| 02:20.53 | MrApathyCream | well a setvar gets sent to all clients |
| 02:22.17 | Spiff | ~seen Chikorita |
| 02:22.18 | | chikorita <~Chikumz33@205.197.172.230> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 7h 19m 56s ago, saying: ':)'. |
| 02:22.34 | Spiff | Hmm. That'll teach me to not leave an away message on my messengers. |
| 02:22.37 | patlabor221 | is it aperant to the users? |
| 02:23.06 | MrApathyCream | only if the walls moved, i guess |
| 02:23.18 | patlabor221 | then they get insta boot |
| 02:23.47 | MrApathyCream | i would think the code would move them |
| 02:24.25 | patlabor221 | what code? |
| 02:24.32 | MrApathyCream | the client (bzflag) |
| 02:24.40 | MrApathyCream | In response to MsgSetVar |
| 02:24.42 | patlabor221 | you put code in to move the players on a size change? |
| 02:24.56 | MrApathyCream | no, i'm saying i could |
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| 02:25.03 | patlabor221 | if your gonna do it, you have to |
| 02:25.14 | patlabor221 | you can't half ass it |
| 02:25.40 | patlabor221 | what about world objects that are outside? |
| 02:25.43 | MrApathyCream | well you can change the world size now, so right now it's half assed :) |
| 02:25.44 | patlabor221 | they stay out? |
| 02:25.49 | MrApathyCream | yes |
| 02:25.57 | MrApathyCream | i guess |
| 02:26.01 | patlabor221 | I would turn it off or do it right |
| 02:26.13 | patlabor221 | this is where specs come in handy |
| 02:26.16 | patlabor221 | not guesses |
| 02:26.22 | MrApathyCream | what would 'do it right' entail, beyond changing the walls and moving tanks |
| 02:27.19 | patlabor221 | well changing everything that is based on the varibale |
| 02:27.30 | patlabor221 | the walls, the player pos, and random worlds |
| 02:27.41 | MrApathyCream | random worlds? |
| 02:27.44 | patlabor221 | yeah |
| 02:27.48 | patlabor221 | they use the size |
| 02:28.07 | MrApathyCream | oh to figure on # of buildings? |
| 02:28.08 | patlabor221 | I would pause everyone, resend the world, then respawn them |
| 02:28.13 | patlabor221 | and there sizes |
| 02:28.26 | patlabor221 | that would allso allow custom map changes on the fly |
| 02:28.36 | patlabor221 | 2 goodthings(tm) |
| 02:28.48 | MrApathyCream | teleporting to other worlds :) |
| 02:29.30 | patlabor221 | regening the world |
| 02:29.33 | patlabor221 | but yeah |
| 02:29.39 | MrApathyCream | well, i guess i'll remove worldsize from BZDB and put it on the 1.12 list |
| 02:29.59 | MrApathyCream | cause after all 1.10 is _so_ close to release |
| 02:31.29 | patlabor221 | well we could ship faster if you stoped adding stuff :) |
| 02:32.12 | MrApathyCream | i'd stop adding if we were going to ship |
| 02:32.25 | MrApathyCream | but it's clear now we're not |
| 02:32.37 | MrApathyCream | but i don't have the stomach to do the world resends |
| 02:36.10 | patlabor221 | fair weather dev? :) |
| 02:39.28 | MrApathyCream | heh |
| 02:39.40 | MrApathyCream | you've beaten me down. I concede. You were right |
| 02:39.56 | MrApathyCream | there are no more people interested in bzflag |
| 02:40.34 | patlabor221 | tis sad |
| 02:42.01 | MrApathyCream | yes, yes it is |
| 02:42.32 | MrApathyCream | its odd, it seems like a relatively good game. although i must concede i'm not a gaming nut |
| 02:43.23 | patlabor221 | it is, it's just that the rest of the gaming world has moved past it |
| 02:43.37 | patlabor221 | so it seems simple and ugly by todays standards |
| 02:44.00 | MrApathyCream | yeah, i guess i need to get out more |
| 02:44.44 | MrApathyCream | I haven't seen other computer games much, but when i walk thru coin-op i see really graphically nice games, that look really stupid |
| 02:45.00 | MrApathyCream | but i guess it's cause i grew up on pong |
| 02:48.03 | patlabor221 | aracdes are dead |
| 02:48.15 | patlabor221 | it's all LBE stuff now |
| 02:48.17 | patlabor221 | not real games |
| 02:49.22 | patlabor221 | PC and console are where you want to look |
| 02:50.35 | MrApathyCream | lbe? |
| 02:50.49 | patlabor221 | Location based entertainment |
| 02:52.50 | MrApathyCream | hey gonk |
| 02:52.57 | gonk-boulder | whats shakin? |
| 02:54.11 | MrApathyCream | nuttin |
| 02:54.22 | gonk-boulder | thats always fun |
| 02:54.52 | gonk-boulder | MrApathyCream: are you the sort of guy who only eats on days that end with "y" |
| 02:55.00 | gonk-boulder | MrApathyCream: do you think the idea of punting a small dog is funny? |
| 02:56.46 | MrApathyCream | eating yes, punting no |
| 02:57.07 | gonk-boulder | nod |
| 02:57.11 | gonk-boulder | do you own any pets? |
| 03:00.06 | MrApathyCream | there are 52 legs in my family |
| 03:00.31 | gonk-boulder | hot damn! |
| 03:00.39 | MrApathyCream | :) |
| 03:00.52 | MrApathyCream | human legs included |
| 03:00.53 | gonk-boulder | cause I doubt thats 26 people :) |
| 03:01.12 | gonk-boulder | and fish have no legs... |
| 03:04.59 | MrApathyCream | so patlabor221 are there any open source games that you'd recommend? |
| 03:05.15 | patlabor221 | depends on what you want to play |
| 03:07.09 | learner | well.. that's enough tanky tanky for one night ;) |
| 03:07.42 | *** join/#bzflag Chikorita (Chikorita@ACD376C7.ipt.aol.com) |
| 03:07.52 | Chikorita | ~quol |
| 03:08.39 | learner | wow, that was fast! |
| 03:08.45 | learner | everyone left |
| 03:09.32 | MrApathyCream | patlabor221, games with no story line, that can be enjoyed for 1 min or 1 hour |
| 03:09.45 | *** join/#bzflag cniV (~kchan@c211-30-113-108.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:09.45 | *** mode/#bzflag [+bbb *!*@*.dip.t-dialin.net *!*edelstei*@* *!*@68.111.116.228] by brin.freenode.net |
| 03:09.45 | *** mode/#bzflag [+bbb *sussudio*!*@* *gorb*!*@* *cell*!*@*] by brin.freenode.net |
| 03:11.05 | patlabor221 | quake variants |
| 03:11.30 | learner | howdy 221st patlabor |
| 03:11.48 | patlabor221 | sup |
| 03:12.00 | patlabor221 | MAC, P24 :) |
| 03:12.14 | learner | mmm.. jLo on tv.. that's definately up with me |
| 03:12.51 | MrApathyCream | patlabor221, any that are ready now? |
| 03:13.01 | MrApathyCream | quake is really boring tome |
| 03:15.24 | patlabor221 | you want to just play, or work on? |
| 03:15.47 | MrApathyCream | both of course |
| 03:16.17 | patlabor221 | there are not many open good open source games |
| 03:17.17 | MrApathyCream | oh, not... |
| 03:17.24 | patlabor221 | yean not |
| 03:17.32 | MrApathyCream | bummer |
| 03:17.39 | patlabor221 | cus mostly games don't evolve like other OS porjects |
| 03:18.06 | CIA | 03brlcad * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (2 files): ws |
| 03:18.53 | learner | bz is actually a little more active than others considering it's age |
| 03:19.09 | patlabor221 | yeah |
| 03:19.17 | learner | few games have that kind of staying power |
| 03:19.20 | patlabor221 | yeah |
| 03:19.46 | patlabor221 | but that dons't mean it can happen forever |
| 03:19.49 | MrApathyCream | so is it that most people just pay for games? |
| 03:20.07 | MrApathyCream | what games are people playing? |
| 03:20.26 | patlabor221 | CS |
| 03:20.32 | patlabor221 | UT |
| 03:20.41 | MrApathyCream | PA |
| 03:20.41 | MrApathyCream | ? |
| 03:20.46 | patlabor221 | PA? |
| 03:20.56 | MrApathyCream | we listing states? |
| 03:21.05 | patlabor221 | no :) |
| 03:21.12 | patlabor221 | Counter Strike, |
| 03:21.18 | patlabor221 | Unreal Trournmanet |
| 03:21.23 | learner | it takes so much effort (as you can tell) to get a decent/fun/playable/complete game these days, most have funding |
| 03:21.31 | MrApathyCream | but these are not opensource? |
| 03:21.58 | learner | maybe two |
| 03:22.10 | MrApathyCream | whats the fun in that |
| 03:22.20 | MrApathyCream | a game that you don't program ain't that fun |
| 03:22.33 | patlabor221 | for you |
| 03:22.41 | MrApathyCream | yes, true |
| 03:23.00 | MrApathyCream | learner, which are? |
| 03:23.32 | learner | well.. there's bzflag.. :) |
| 03:23.41 | MrApathyCream | which is now dead |
| 03:23.45 | MrApathyCream | and... |
| 03:23.53 | MrApathyCream | did you mean one finger? |
| 03:23.59 | MrApathyCream | i hope it wasn't the middle one... |
| 03:24.22 | learner | heh |
| 03:24.38 | learner | It's not dead :P .. just in transition |
| 03:24.53 | MrApathyCream | it's dead, we just don't want to admit it |
| 03:25.06 | MrApathyCream | patlabor's been preachin it for a year now. we just didn't want to listen |
| 03:25.29 | patlabor221 | that's why I want to make something that is easyaly exetnsible |
| 03:25.29 | MrApathyCream | the fact that riker/proton/chestal are completely gone, spells doom |
| 03:26.06 | MrApathyCream | that would be great, but, no offense, these kind of things never seem to work |
| 03:26.07 | learner | or that it's time to change hands |
| 03:26.15 | MrApathyCream | learner: that won't happen |
| 03:26.32 | MrApathyCream | and even if it did, there's not enough support |
| 03:26.42 | patlabor221 | help is allways good |
| 03:27.08 | patlabor221 | tho don't seem like you want to |
| 03:27.08 | MrApathyCream | patlabor221, you and scanline should get together and do something |
| 03:27.15 | MrApathyCream | i would just piss you off |
| 03:28.47 | patlabor221 | scanline is not interested in games |
| 03:29.02 | patlabor221 | not in a serious sense |
| 03:29.34 | MrApathyCream | he's seems to be interested in everything, which for the rest of us, is a bad thing |
| 03:29.53 | MrApathyCream | a common malady |
| 03:30.29 | patlabor221 | see :) |
| 03:30.33 | MrApathyCream | yup |
| 03:32.34 | MrApathyCream | So patlabor221, is BZ 'ugly' because of poor design, or because the decision was to support crappy video cards |
| 03:33.47 | patlabor221 | it's not a design or support thing |
| 03:33.53 | patlabor221 | it's just an art thing |
| 03:34.20 | MrApathyCream | well it seems that alot of nifty stuff is left out because the squirrel's painting chestal's screen can't do it |
| 03:34.25 | MrApathyCream | (well at least that sentiment) |
| 03:34.32 | patlabor221 | it's posibly due to trying to support too may platformw, with the LCD approach |
| 03:35.02 | patlabor221 | yeah, supporting software and hardware with the same source art |
| 03:36.15 | MrApathyCream | So if we dropped software rendering, could BZ be prettified without alot of rearchitecturing? |
| 03:36.21 | learner | why not just check if feature XYZ is supported and use it if it is?? |
| 03:36.34 | patlabor221 | it's more then a feature thing |
| 03:36.35 | MrApathyCream | learner well to some degree we do that |
| 03:36.42 | patlabor221 | it's what you can do with those features |
| 03:36.47 | patlabor221 | it's posible to support both |
| 03:36.53 | patlabor221 | you just need a more flexible system |
| 03:36.57 | MrApathyCream | but if it's too different bad graphics people get an advantage |
| 03:37.03 | patlabor221 | the curren BZ code is not very modification friendluy |
| 03:37.11 | learner | which is the fundamental problem.. the libs need reworkedd |
| 03:37.32 | patlabor221 | well just about everything in it is old |
| 03:37.43 | patlabor221 | there is newer stuff to do all of it that is way more flexible |
| 03:37.48 | MrApathyCream | hey but no ALists :) |
| 03:37.54 | patlabor221 | what is worth keeping? |
| 03:38.04 | MrApathyCream | the history |
| 03:38.05 | patlabor221 | besides core game logic? |
| 03:38.14 | patlabor221 | that's just logic |
| 03:38.18 | patlabor221 | it could be done in anything |
| 03:38.28 | patlabor221 | you could make BZ as quake mod if you wanted |
| 04:06.47 | patlabor221 | horsies ok? |
| 04:06.51 | MrApathyCream | yup |
| 04:06.57 | learner | hmmm.. tupone is having the server return the team that it placed the player on... |
| 04:07.10 | learner | OH NO! |
| 04:07.28 | MrApathyCream | learner a better option would be to have the server MANDATE what team you were |
| 04:07.42 | MrApathyCream | having the player say, pick me a team, is kind of stupid |
| 04:08.09 | learner | huh? why? |
| 04:08.27 | MrApathyCream | because most players like a color or rogue |
| 04:08.34 | patlabor221 | other games, client sends in a "I want to be on this team", then the server sends a "you got this team" |
| 04:08.39 | MrApathyCream | but an autobalancing server would be a good thing |
| 04:08.52 | MrApathyCream | patlabor221, yes |
| 04:08.54 | learner | well, yes that would be a nice thing |
| 04:09.12 | MrApathyCream | learner: it seems like this patch could easily be morphed into that |
| 04:09.12 | learner | but that's a different feature, IMO |
| 04:09.15 | patlabor221 | but that mandate is based on the servers team rules |
| 04:09.22 | MrApathyCream | patlabor221, yes |
| 04:09.56 | MrApathyCream | i think about 2% want the server to pick a color for them |
| 04:10.05 | MrApathyCream | but 90% of server ops want that |
| 04:10.16 | MrApathyCream | numbers are just placeholders but i think the relativity is right |
| 04:10.42 | learner | the question I have is should the client send an "automatic" to the server and get a team back, or should it look at the counts and auto-guess itself |
| 04:10.55 | learner | s/auto-guess/auto-try/ |
| 04:11.06 | MrApathyCream | I think you should do nothing new on the client |
| 04:11.17 | MrApathyCream | add an option -balance to the server |
| 04:11.20 | MrApathyCream | (or whatever) |
| 04:11.23 | learner | *sigh* |
| 04:11.28 | learner | perhaps next.. |
| 04:11.43 | learner | I'd also like the client to say they don't care for servers that do provide the option |
| 04:11.44 | MrApathyCream | don't just add crap, says the king of crap |
| 04:12.08 | MrApathyCream | learner: well you could add it to the ping interface |
| 04:12.15 | learner | it's a significant feature for me, because for ctf I usually do not care -- I want the smallest team |
| 04:12.15 | MrApathyCream | so it shows on find servers |
| 04:13.08 | learner | if I was placed on a team with players I did not like, I'd probably go observer before joining the opposite team (and making things unbalanced) |
| 04:14.15 | learner | I can see how it's more important for the server to do things for ffa style |
| 04:14.22 | MrApathyCream | true |
| 04:14.43 | patlabor221 | what is really needed is a true FFA |
| 04:14.48 | patlabor221 | not this Team FFA stuff now |
| 04:14.58 | MrApathyCream | rogue ffa |
| 04:15.01 | patlabor221 | or turn off Team kills |
| 04:15.06 | MrApathyCream | that's usually what it boils down to |
| 04:15.06 | Spiff | Rogue FFA kicks! ;) |
| 04:15.07 | patlabor221 | let them be the colo9rs |
| 04:15.24 | Spiff | Yes.. turn off the ability to kill teammates. Though that would make CTF *suck*. |
| 04:15.24 | patlabor221 | just turn off team kills and team score |
| 04:15.27 | learner | patlabor221, the server admins can do that now.. ?? they just choose not to |
| 04:15.40 | patlabor221 | y eah |
| 04:15.43 | MrApathyCream | learner: i think he means shot go thru |
| 04:15.49 | patlabor221 | spifff, CTF is a team game, so that would make no sense |
| 04:15.53 | Spiff | Because sometimes it's a good strategy to get teammates to shoot eachother in CTF. |
| 04:15.56 | learner | eep, I wouldn't want shot go through :) |
| 04:16.08 | Spiff | Me neither, learner. That'd ruin matches. |
| 04:16.08 | learner | except as an option |
| 04:16.12 | Spiff | Yep. |
| 04:16.12 | patlabor221 | I am talking about true FFA |
| 04:16.17 | learner | sure |
| 04:16.21 | patlabor221 | true deathmatch |
| 04:16.42 | Spiff | That'd be good then, Patlabor221. |
| 04:17.02 | MrApathyCream | rabbit? |
| 04:17.19 | MrApathyCream | rabbit scoring should be time-based |
| 04:17.39 | patlabor221 | then make the rabbit not able to shoot :) |
| 04:17.48 | Spiff | Ow... that would suck. |
| 04:17.49 | Spiff | LoL |
| 04:17.53 | MrApathyCream | and rabbit should be able to use Geno |
| 04:17.54 | learner | a true king of the hill style with real hills would be cool too |
| 04:17.58 | patlabor221 | run rabit rrun |
| 04:18.06 | learner | but then, I'm dreaming for the near future |
| 04:18.12 | patlabor221 | I think mac would like CTC |
| 04:18.16 | Spiff | Yes, but sometimes one must turn and fire a shot in defiance. :) |
| 04:18.22 | MrApathyCream | chicken? |
| 04:18.25 | patlabor221 | yes |
| 04:18.53 | MrApathyCream | the game would suck |
| 04:18.55 | patlabor221 | the "IT" can't shoot, the "them" can shoot, but not hurt each other. |
| 04:18.58 | learner | catch - the - carrot? :) |
| 04:19.00 | patlabor221 | run chicknen run |
| 04:19.26 | patlabor221 | learner, it would beaicly be redoing all the world stuff |
| 04:19.40 | learner | CTC could rather easily be added |
| 04:19.48 | patlabor221 | then tweak aiming cus you would want the tank to tilt |
| 04:20.12 | learner | make rabbit unable to shoot, replace tank model with running chicken :) |
| 04:20.31 | MrApathyCream | for terrains, tanks would have to have a form of gm to be playable |
| 04:20.38 | patlabor221 | no put the chicken on the top of the tank |
| 04:20.46 | patlabor221 | think larger mac |
| 04:20.52 | patlabor221 | don't think what is, think what could be |
| 04:20.58 | learner | aww..but I want to shoot _the_chicken_ |
| 04:21.02 | MrApathyCream | i am, the game would be too hard to play |
| 04:21.05 | MrApathyCream | otherwise |
| 04:21.08 | patlabor221 | you would need vertical aiming |
| 04:21.17 | patlabor221 | it makes it play more like a FPS |
| 04:21.19 | MrApathyCream | it would still be too hard |
| 04:21.42 | learner | it could even still work with fixed tanks really |
| 04:21.47 | learner | er, fixed turret tanks |
| 04:21.51 | patlabor221 | you would need more controlls |
| 04:21.55 | patlabor221 | it's not hard, just difrent |
| 04:22.03 | learner | yea, different |
| 04:22.18 | patlabor221 | by your def, most games are "hard" |
| 04:22.20 | MrApathyCream | well, perhaps you could have moving turrets etc, but you'd want to be able to get two internet players to use one tank |
| 04:22.39 | MrApathyCream | patlabor221, yes |
| 04:22.56 | patlabor221 | you just need more then one hand |
| 04:23.04 | patlabor221 | welcome to the 21st centruy :) |
| 04:23.05 | learner | ah.. and we always return to that gem.. thy name is subspace |
| 04:23.20 | patlabor221 | yes |
| 04:23.41 | patlabor221 | subspace was one of the best mutliplayer game |
| 04:23.48 | patlabor221 | and it's STILL holding |
| 04:24.09 | MrApathyCream | anyone have that vector based tank game that has left-right track controls? |
| 04:24.19 | MrApathyCream | it's out on the net somewhere. |
| 04:24.40 | patlabor221 | Battle zone |
| 04:24.42 | patlabor221 | ? |
| 04:25.16 | MrApathyCream | yes, something... riker has the link iirc |
| 04:25.26 | patlabor221 | google |
| 04:25.29 | patlabor221 | it's an old arcade |
| 04:25.33 | patlabor221 | and there are emus |
| 04:27.32 | MrApathyCream | when i was in my 40s there was a game called I-Robot, that i loved |
| 04:27.39 | MrApathyCream | i never did see an emulation |
| 04:28.17 | patlabor221 | maim should do it |
| 04:28.27 | patlabor221 | or mame |
| 04:28.29 | MrApathyCream | http://www.geocities.com/banzairun/irobot/ |
| 04:28.38 | MrApathyCream | i looked at one point |
| 04:28.41 | MrApathyCream | at maim |
| 04:29.27 | Spiff | I only see one problem with adding vertical aiming, more controls, etc. |
| 04:29.37 | patlabor221 | yup |
| 04:29.40 | Spiff | What about the people who like BZ because it is *simple* like bzgirl? |
| 04:29.59 | patlabor221 | put you tilt the tank, how else do you aim? |
| 04:30.17 | Spiff | Huh? |
| 04:30.34 | MrApathyCream | Spiff, or MrApathyCream |
| 04:30.48 | Spiff | Hehe.. yepperz, Apathy. :) |
| 04:31.03 | patlabor221 | if you tilt the tank, you have to tilt the shots, or you'll shoot the ground, A LOT |
| 04:31.21 | Spiff | If it's going to be complicated.. make a branch for ones who want that complication. But it would suck for those who like the simplicity of the game. |
| 04:32.01 | patlabor221 | this is why P24 is designed to have difrent game types in the same system. |
| 04:32.21 | patlabor221 | so you can have simple games and comples games |
| 04:36.26 | patlabor221 | what's killing BZ now is the fact that people are not happy with just one game mode |
| 04:37.10 | MrApathyCream | you think? |
| 04:37.16 | patlabor221 | I know |
| 04:37.34 | patlabor221 | all other poular games are modable |
| 04:37.38 | patlabor221 | in there own system |
| 04:37.48 | MrApathyCream | by game mode you mean.... |
| 04:37.53 | patlabor221 | to mod BZ, you have to branch, or be labled you a cheter |
| 04:38.00 | patlabor221 | just difrent method of play |
| 04:38.06 | patlabor221 | BZ only has 2 game types |
| 04:38.13 | patlabor221 | Team DM and CTF |
| 04:38.19 | patlabor221 | and slowboat CTF |
| 04:38.23 | patlabor221 | as it sit |
| 04:38.24 | patlabor221 | s |
| 04:38.29 | learner | heheh.. I love playing the ffa punkies on my 1.9 server :) |
| 04:38.56 | patlabor221 | yeah like dumping into alpha zone |
| 04:39.05 | learner | their dodging skills usually suck major arseage |
| 04:39.09 | patlabor221 | smack down some punk bitches |
| 04:40.38 | learner | ugh.. implicit index correlation to enum value! |
| 04:40.40 | Spiff | learner- Some of us CTF players first learned by playing 5-10 shot FFA. :) |
| 04:40.43 | learner | ~fishslap whoever did that |
| 04:40.46 | | ACTION slaps whoever did that up side the head with a wet fish. |
| 04:41.49 | patlabor221 | learner remember when you had to have a min score in alpha zone before you could play in any of the other zones |
| 04:41.50 | learner | spiff: yes, until they think they're good and they try out ctf and realize how far they have to go still :) |
| 04:42.04 | learner | yes.. that was sweet |
| 04:42.12 | learner | non-newbie servers, etc |
| 04:42.32 | patlabor221 | I think that's whats needed |
| 04:42.33 | learner | but, then, they had a centralized player registration system in place |
| 04:42.41 | patlabor221 | yes |
| 04:42.50 | Spiff | Perhaps. But remember when I first started playing CTF? I was a ton better than most CTF newbies. |
| 04:42.53 | learner | and ours is ... |
| 04:42.53 | patlabor221 | and a completely difrent server type system |
| 04:43.01 | patlabor221 | BZ is more like quake 1 |
| 04:43.12 | patlabor221 | it's a FFA system |
| 04:43.16 | Spiff | I'll put it this way.. I'd like to see some of you CTF guys dodge ten shots with GM, SW, L, ST, etc. for more than five minutes (with a decent player). :) |
| 04:43.30 | patlabor221 | Subspace has more then just player reg, it's also server reg |
| 04:43.33 | patlabor221 | and server interlinks |
| 04:44.19 | learner | spiff: I've hopped onto a ffa server before.. I usually maintain a positive score even when I refuse to jump |
| 04:44.24 | patlabor221 | single server/gamestate is soo 1985 |
| 04:45.07 | Spiff | Mmm hmm. Musta been a lot of newbies around.. either that or you've played a bit of FFA. My point isn't about you specifially though. |
| 04:45.31 | Spiff | My point is.. you're good at what you play. You CTF guys may make fun of us FFA guys, but I find FFA harder to master with flags, lots of shots, and good players. |
| 04:45.40 | patlabor221 | ohh you read my spec? |
| 04:46.06 | patlabor221 | spaned rooms man, it's all about spaned rooms :) |
| 04:46.20 | learner | just because it's chaotic doesn't make it "hard to master" -- it's just chaotic and you learn to take advantage of situations |
| 04:46.27 | learner | your spec? |
| 04:46.46 | patlabor221 | description of server stuff |
| 04:46.53 | learner | (manly hug, re bzg's instructions) |
| 04:47.05 | patlabor221 | that's part of the base server system |
| 04:47.06 | Spiff | Yes, hard to master. Look at it this way.. I've been playing FFA for over a year.. CTF for a few months. And yet CTF took half as long to learn. |
| 04:47.12 | patlabor221 | to link servers into spanned rooms |
| 04:47.16 | Spiff | And I think I'm just as good at CTF as I am FFA. |
| 04:47.27 | patlabor221 | so in the list server they are grouped, and you just pick the server closest to you. |
| 04:47.40 | Spiff | Whatever tho... you CTF boys are just bitter 'cause we FFA guys get super flags. :) |
| 04:47.40 | patlabor221 | but they are all part of the same "game" |
| 04:47.46 | Spiff | Spiffy's off to bed. |
| 04:47.52 | learner | nah, I don't consider that mastering -- it's more taking advantage of the situation ;) |
| 04:47.56 | patlabor221 | huh? CTF can have flags too |
| 04:48.06 | Spiff | Not ducati CTF like learner plays tho. :) |
| 04:48.19 | learner | the "one true gamestyle" |
| 04:48.22 | patlabor221 | that's his choice then, no reason for him to be bitter |
| 04:48.24 | Spiff | learner- I would welcome you to bring it on while on Hashmark sometime. :) |
| 04:48.25 | learner | bz-wise, that is |
| 04:48.37 | Spiff | I was *joking*, Patlabor. :) |
| 04:48.43 | patlabor221 | I knoe |
| 04:48.45 | learner | bah, no fun -- there's only a hint at strategy and teamwork |
| 04:49.00 | learner | it's "free for all" as the name goes -- bah! |
| 04:49.04 | patlabor221 | BZ CTF is just too slow to hold the attention of most ADD monkeys |
| 04:49.06 | Spiff | That's why I only play rogue on FFA servers. Nobody plays like a teammate. |
| 04:49.20 | Spiff | Besides... then it's everyone against me.. more targets! :D |
| 04:49.38 | patlabor221 | thats why I say remove Teams and make a true FFA, where the "TEAM" is just to color your tank |
| 04:49.56 | Spiff | ;) |
| 04:50.18 | Spiff | Dunno, Patlabor. Some people play on teams so that less people shoot them. :) |
| 04:50.30 | learner | FAM? |
| 04:50.36 | patlabor221 | Fuel Air Mixture |
| 04:50.43 | patlabor221 | big bada boom :) |
| 04:50.49 | Spiff | Okay.. I'm gone. My bed is calling me. |
| 04:50.51 | Spiff | G'night all. |
| 04:50.56 | patlabor221 | ss ja |
| 04:51.18 | learner | If the gameplay takes actual concentration and fine-tuned finger skills, I'll probably enjoy it |
| 04:51.18 | patlabor221 | AOE effects on detination :) |
| 04:51.22 | learner | g'night spiffy |
| 04:52.24 | patlabor221 | basicly a couple secs before impact the munition sprays fuel into the air. |
| 04:52.28 | patlabor221 | then it blows up |
| 04:52.36 | patlabor221 | filling the area around it in fire |
| 04:52.44 | learner | hehe, that will be a cool gl effect :) |
| 04:52.50 | patlabor221 | yup |
| 04:52.57 | patlabor221 | and it's a dammage over time effect |
| 04:53.05 | patlabor221 | longer you stay in it, the more it hurts |
| 04:53.10 | patlabor221 | so get out fast |
| 04:53.50 | patlabor221 | best to shoot the missle before it hits its' target, minimise the blast rad |
| 04:53.53 | learner | damage and power are other features that bz and p24 need |
| 04:54.26 | patlabor221 | the "standard" game types for P24 have shields, power, optional wepons, and accessories |
| 04:54.36 | patlabor221 | some weps have ammo |
| 04:54.46 | patlabor221 | some pull from your internal power |
| 04:54.57 | learner | coo |
| 04:55.00 | patlabor221 | some are one shot |
| 04:55.07 | patlabor221 | like the jato bottle |
| 04:55.25 | patlabor221 | aka "hold on to yer butt" |
| 04:56.18 | patlabor221 | hit f4, 300% thrust, 0 throttle for 10 secs |
| 04:57.44 | MrApathyCream | anyone try --> http://armagetron.sourceforge.net/ |
| 04:58.09 | cniV | yeah |
| 04:58.13 | cniV | its kinda fun |
| 04:58.17 | cniV | for about 10 mins |
| 04:58.19 | cniV | then it gets boring |
| 04:58.50 | MrApathyCream | worth downloading on dialup? |
| 05:00.25 | learner | gltron is better :P |
| 05:02.12 | MrApathyCream | i found it, too late |
| 05:03.23 | MrApathyCream | heh |
| 05:03.43 | MrApathyCream | lots of luck to you |
| 05:05.18 | MrApathyCream | hmmm tron pretty simplistic |
| 05:05.27 | learner | hehe, what did you expect? |
| 05:05.36 | MrApathyCream | actually the cream is extremely thick |
| 05:05.45 | MrApathyCream | i'm drowning in it |
| 05:05.50 | learner | heh |
| 05:06.05 | MrApathyCream | i given up pushing it... if it ships it ships |
| 05:06.12 | MrApathyCream | but i'm not holding my breath |
| 05:06.18 | MrApathyCream | maybe riker will wake up one day.... |
| 05:06.57 | learner | who said riker needs to be awake? *cough* :) |
| 05:07.21 | learner | the dev platforms of choice are covered :) |
| 05:07.24 | MrApathyCream | learner, you might as well take the hat from proton, as well. |
| 05:07.50 | learner | but.. then I won't have a free hand with which to write code |
| 05:07.55 | MrApathyCream | he's got a girlfriend now |
| 05:08.10 | learner | OH.. so THAT's what's been going on.. |
| 05:08.17 | patlabor221 | you also said he was in egypt |
| 05:08.29 | learner | heh, i did?? |
| 05:08.44 | patlabor221 | mac did |
| 05:08.47 | learner | ah |
| 05:09.02 | MrApathyCream | captain_proton, is on a 40 cities in 40 nites |
| 05:09.10 | MrApathyCream | he picked up a girlfriend in praque |
| 05:09.51 | patlabor221 | odd how he could go to work then |
| 05:10.26 | patlabor221 | and still has access to navi |
| 05:10.33 | patlabor221 | and can get ninja sox |
| 05:11.25 | captain_proton | ninja socksssssssssss |
| 05:13.25 | learner | jb: store? =) |
| 05:14.06 | JBDiGriz | Yep, dog tags, t-shirts, expose |
| 05:14.44 | learner | shweet |
| 05:15.29 | JBDiGriz | Evidently they didn't bother advertising the store opening, so they only had a few hundred people show up. |
| 05:15.55 | learner | heh |
| 05:16.51 | JBDiGriz | My daughter decided to come with me. She had so much fun that now my wife is running over there with the other two kids, so they don't miss out. :) |
| 05:18.19 | learner | hehe |
| 05:18.28 | learner | gotta love sibling jealousy :) |
| 05:20.14 | MrApathyCream | i like the free flowing camera angles tho |
| 05:21.02 | learner | yes.. and their gl effects are rather nice |
| 05:21.26 | MrApathyCream | the quasi transparent trail is nice |
| 05:21.33 | learner | not easy stuff to do effectively |
| 05:22.42 | learner | it's not jaw dropping, but for a one-man game, it's not bad |
| 05:22.54 | JBDiGriz | How is it over the network? |
| 05:23.05 | patlabor221 | never seen it |
| 05:23.06 | MrApathyCream | i like the first version of gltron was developed on an afternoon in may |
| 05:23.09 | patlabor221 | so can;t bah |
| 05:23.15 | learner | don't think it has network gameplay |
| 05:23.27 | learner | http://www.gltron.org/screenshots.php |
| 05:23.59 | JBDiGriz | Connect seventeen computers over LAN or the Internet Team play |
| 05:24.31 | learner | ?? where do you see that |
| 05:24.50 | learner | it's listed in his ideas page to add networking |
| 05:25.01 | MrApathyCream | thats armagetron |
| 05:25.03 | learner | albiet the most important, he says |
| 05:25.09 | learner | ah, arma.. yes |
| 05:25.12 | patlabor221 | it's decent |
| 05:25.16 | patlabor221 | prudery then us |
| 05:25.30 | MrApathyCream | nice all around except the game is silly |
| 05:25.59 | MrApathyCream | OK, BZFlag could use a face lift |
| 05:27.43 | patlabor221 | graphics, sound, menu, net, and archetecture lifts |
| 05:28.00 | MrApathyCream | yup |
| 05:28.22 | patlabor221 | I think you need to boil down what IS BZFlag |
| 05:28.32 | AlanOne | little by little it shall morph |
| 05:28.35 | patlabor221 | it's not any specific Technolgy stuff |
| 05:28.49 | patlabor221 | not with out support AlanOne |
| 05:32.31 | *** join/#bzflag Patlabor221X2 (~jeffm@adsl-64-172-196-92.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 05:33.03 | captain_proton | yay for stealing people's computers |
| 05:33.18 | Patlabor221X2 | heh |
| 05:33.47 | Patlabor221X2 | I don't think this project can evolve at all with out a plan, or it will just be a toy |
| 05:33.53 | captain_proton | MrApathyCream: no no no... captain_proton doesn't have a girlfriend, and gonkulator's girlfriend is out of town, which is why he is pestering captain_proton |
| 05:34.27 | captain_proton | and gonkulator hasn't visited captain_proton/scanline in a while |
| 05:34.32 | captain_proton | so he feels guilty |
| 05:34.40 | MrApathyCream | Patlabor221 the fellas would all be happy if you wrote a plan |
| 05:35.15 | Patlabor221X2 | I have been, it's not a plan anyone here will like |
| 05:35.25 | Patlabor221X2 | I'm trying to get people to look at my plan |
| 05:36.13 | MrApathyCream | a plan no one likes... sounds promising.... L:) |
| 05:36.52 | Patlabor221X2 | true, it's not a plan for what would be called "bzflag proper" |
| 05:37.07 | Patlabor221X2 | it's a good plan I think |
| 05:37.11 | Patlabor221X2 | and many people like it |
| 05:37.16 | Patlabor221X2 | you don't tho |
| 05:37.58 | Patlabor221X2 | mac |
| 05:38.22 | AlanOne | here's a good list mac.. |
| 05:44.30 | AlanOne | maelstrom, tuxracer, celestia, freecraft, armagetron, gltron, quake, exult, doom, vega strike, and -- of course -- bzflag |
| 05:44.54 | Patlabor221X2 | freecraft is still alive? |
| 05:45.13 | AlanOne | yea, last I checked |
| 05:45.25 | captain_proton | they got C&Ded |
| 05:45.37 | AlanOne | oh? when was that? |
| 05:45.44 | captain_proton | a couple months ago |
| 05:45.55 | AlanOne | phoo |
| 05:46.24 | Patlabor221X2 | yeah, tho they are suposebly working on new art stuff to make it indepenendet |
| 05:47.04 | AlanOne | ah, and the newly popular legend of the green dragon |
| 05:55.02 | MrApathyCream | most of those games are silly |
| 05:55.12 | MrApathyCream | imo |
| 05:55.52 | AlanOne | hey.. you asked which are popular, if I remember -- not impressive or on par with commercial games ;P |
| 05:56.15 | MrApathyCream | heh |
| 05:56.18 | MrApathyCream | yup, thanks |
| 05:56.20 | AlanOne | bz is actually probably the closest |
| 05:56.42 | Patlabor221X2 | you forgot cube |
| 05:56.51 | AlanOne | though lotgd sure sounds like fun :) |
| 05:56.58 | MrApathyCream | After n seconds, how far has gravity effected the z position? |
| 05:57.11 | MrApathyCream | formula anyone? |
| 05:57.20 | AlanOne | didn't we have this talk a month ago?? |
| 05:57.36 | MrApathyCream | no that was how high will you |
| 05:57.37 | MrApathyCream | go |
| 05:57.37 | Patlabor221X2 | units per sec per sec |
| 05:57.45 | Patlabor221X2 | grav is acceleratiopn |
| 05:57.50 | MrApathyCream | yes |
| 05:58.12 | MrApathyCream | i'm confused how to do with out last velocity |
| 05:58.34 | Patlabor221X2 | you can't |
| 05:58.42 | MrApathyCream | that was my question... ok |
| 05:58.53 | captain_proton | "the TV? are you going to eat it?" "well, ya" |
| 06:03.47 | MrApathyCream | distance = (gravity * dt^2)/2 |
| 06:05.24 | AlanOne | eep, almost forgot pingus too |
| 06:07.20 | MrApathyCream | put these two lines @ ShotStrategy.cxx line 462 (before setPosition(p) |
| 06:07.22 | MrApathyCream | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:07.22 | MrApathyCream | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:07.36 | MrApathyCream | then climb and shoot |
| 06:08.14 | MrApathyCream | it's clear that the bullets are fast enough to be real-to-life |
| 06:08.40 | MrApathyCream | s/are/are not/ |
| 06:41.47 | *** join/#bzflag RoadRunnr (~suolon@66.146.128.18) |
| 06:53.16 | *** join/#bzflag |tim| (~|tim|@ip68-106-184-191.sb.sd.cox.net) |
| 07:57.07 | *** join/#bzflag mmu_man (~revol@ALyon-209-1-19-144.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 08:45.22 | *** join/#bzflag triclops (~triclops@203-219-160-62-nsw.tpgi.com.au) |
| 09:04.43 | *** join/#bzflag [dmp] (~dennis@port151.ds1-aboes.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 09:05.49 | AlanOne | howdy dmper |
| 10:34.59 | [dmp] | hi AlanOne |
| 10:41.35 | *** join/#bzflag [dmp] (~dennis@port151.ds1-aboes.adsl.cybercity.dk) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 10:41.35 | *** mode/#bzflag [+bbb *!*@*.dip.t-dialin.net *!*edelstei*@* *!*@68.111.116.228] by simak.freenode.net |
| 10:41.35 | *** mode/#bzflag [+bbb *sussudio*!*@* *gorb*!*@* *cell*!*@*] by simak.freenode.net |
| 12:04.31 | *** join/#bzflag bzgirl (~orchid@toronto-hs-64-26-176-100.s-ip.magma.ca) |
| 12:10.31 | Chestal | hi bzg |
| 12:10.46 | bzgirl | morning Chestal |
| 12:11.22 | Chestal | well, it's no loner morning here, not even by my definition :-) |
| 12:32.24 | cniV | morning... |
| 12:32.34 | cniV | its like 22:32 :) |
| 12:33.20 | bzgirl | cniV: 8:33am here :) |
| 12:33.40 | cniV | heh :) |
| 12:34.28 | Chestal | 14:34 |
| 12:34.54 | Chestal | this night we'll go back to normal time, so I can sleep one more hour |
| 12:35.03 | cniV | i get one less hour :( |
| 12:35.22 | cniV | stupid daylight saving |
| 12:35.26 | Chestal | hehe, that's what you get for living on the wrong hemisphere ;-) |
| 12:35.53 | cniV | bah :) |
| 12:36.05 | bzgirl | oh tonight the clocks change? |
| 12:36.31 | cniV | depends on your daylight saving |
| 12:36.46 | cniV | here in australia we go forward an hour :( |
| 12:37.12 | cniV | and it seems like good ol deutschland is going back an hour |
| 12:37.40 | Chestal | yep, we are. And I would assume most of other European countries as well |
| 12:38.11 | bzgirl | spring forward, fall back i think is the system here |
| 12:38.44 | cniV | i think thats the system in most countries ): |
| 12:38.45 | cniV | :) |
| 12:39.11 | Chestal | even in Australia, bu tof course they are confused about when spring is ,-) |
| 12:39.18 | bzgirl | heh |
| 12:39.22 | bzgirl | poor aussis |
| 12:39.36 | cniV | hey spring at this time is good |
| 12:39.49 | cniV | coz then christmas is summer |
| 12:41.06 | Chestal | for xmas you need snow |
| 12:41.15 | Chestal | (not that it works here most of the time) |
| 12:42.33 | cniV | we all head down to the beach :) |
| 12:44.24 | Chestal | more antipodes! |
| 12:44.28 | bzgirl | triclops: your in AU also? |
| 12:44.36 | triclops | yep |
| 12:44.46 | bzgirl | is that AU bz server still running? |
| 12:44.53 | triclops | same uni as cniV too |
| 12:45.02 | triclops | theres an AU bz server? |
| 12:45.09 | bzgirl | yes, there was |
| 12:45.17 | bzgirl | i lagged on it though :) |
| 12:45.24 | triclops | wow... |
| 12:45.33 | cniV | that might have been me :) |
| 12:45.43 | cniV | if it was, then its not running anymore :) |
| 12:45.51 | bzgirl | it was 5 shot i think, FFA |
| 12:45.54 | bzgirl | cant remember |
| 12:45.57 | cniV | yup |
| 12:45.59 | cniV | 5 shot ffa |
| 12:45.59 | triclops | we need one running permenant at uni cniV |
| 12:46.10 | triclops | considering all the work being done |
| 12:46.11 | cniV | heh |
| 12:46.22 | cniV | well |
| 12:46.34 | cniV | does anyone want to work on the karmasystem other than me? |
| 12:46.50 | cniV | tim was gonna integrate it, but then now he's got something |
| 12:47.01 | cniV | which means its currently left in the air |
| 12:47.38 | triclops | hehe, anything needed before 2 weeks is up? |
| 12:48.01 | cniV | yeah get everything onto dbservers and get karmasystem up and enough testing to get results |
| 12:48.13 | cniV | right now the karmasystem is pretty much complete |
| 12:48.19 | cniV | but its not tied in |
| 12:48.28 | cniV | coz everything is still talking to old bzfls |
| 12:48.56 | triclops | hmm, you got some work to get done... |
| 12:49.07 | cniV | well kai said i should apply for an extension |
| 12:51.19 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@ppp-217-133-162-203.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 12:51.22 | triclops | hehe, the reason for an extension will be funny |
| 12:52.50 | bzgirl | hello Tupone |
| 12:52.59 | Tupone | hi bzgirl |
| 12:53.22 | Tupone | g'morning |
| 12:55.11 | cniV | argh |
| 12:55.13 | cniV | its not morning |
| 12:55.22 | [dmp] | :) |
| 12:55.22 | Tupone | where? |
| 12:55.32 | cniV | where you are :) |
| 12:55.35 | cniV | and where i am :) |
| 12:56.00 | Tupone | that's where bzgirl is. I suppose |
| 12:56.13 | cniV | hmmm.... fair enough :) |
| 12:57.41 | Tupone | still I have problem with UGT |
| 12:58.31 | Tupone | ~UGT |
| 12:58.33 | | i heard ugt is Universal Greeting Time. It states that it is always morning when person comes in, and it is always late when person leaves. Local time of any member of channel is irrelevant. |
| 12:58.54 | triclops | yay for ibot :) |
| 12:59.13 | triclops | ~botsnack |
| 12:59.13 | | aw, gee, triclops |
| 12:59.52 | bzgirl | :) |
| 13:13.37 | CIA | 03atupone * 12bzflag/ (TODO): TODO before next release : void |
| 13:28.00 | *** join/#bzflag Bagheera (~Bagheera@pool-162-84-21-86.sal.east.verizon.net) |
| 14:00.42 | *** join/#bzflag KR (~k@cae168-234-054.sc.rr.com) |
| 14:10.55 | [dmp] | The dark side is everywhere :-) |
| 14:35.01 | *** join/#bzflag aka_stevey (~stevey@cpc4-linc1-4-0-cust78.nott.cable.ntl.com) |
| 14:44.11 | KR | the dark side r00lz |
| 14:44.17 | KR | :) |
| 14:44.32 | *** part/#bzflag aka_stevey (~stevey@cpc4-linc1-4-0-cust78.nott.cable.ntl.com) |
| 14:49.31 | [dmp] | :) |
| 15:16.33 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@ppp-217-133-162-17.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 15:20.08 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@ppp-217-133-162-17.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 15:24.32 | *** join/#bzflag sn0w_d0ggy (~gig1992@adsl-68-78-98-163.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net) |
| 15:25.00 | sn0w_d0ggy | hey ya'll |
| 15:26.06 | KR | hi |
| 15:26.13 | sn0w_d0ggy | Hey, KR! |
| 15:26.43 | KR | am trying to find a site with an easy-to-make water cannon - need armament for a sailboat race next weekend |
| 15:26.57 | sn0w_d0ggy | Heh, have fun! |
| 15:27.02 | sn0w_d0ggy | Hope you win |
| 15:27.03 | sn0w_d0ggy | ... |
| 15:27.16 | sn0w_d0ggy | :D |
| 15:28.59 | *** join/#bzflag david_v (~david_v@c213-200-135-241.cm-upc.chello.se) |
| 15:29.12 | [dmp] | Hey swedish1 |
| 15:29.36 | david_v | where? where? |
| 15:29.43 | david_v | oh, no. when did that happen? |
| 15:30.05 | sn0w_d0ggy | Heh |
| 15:31.22 | david_v | in your dreams. i drew up a will already :) |
| 15:31.43 | david_v | "[dmp] may not ever be a member of the holy Fortix, or have any influence upon it" |
| 15:31.54 | sn0w_d0ggy | heh |
| 15:31.56 | sn0w_d0ggy | LoL |
| 15:32.54 | david_v | this is not about it. my teamies will sue you :) |
| 15:33.01 | [dmp] | delete from ctf_wills where user="david_v" |
| 15:33.07 | [dmp] | ha! |
| 15:33.16 | david_v | do you think i registered it in YOUR buggy database :P |
| 15:33.17 | david_v | ;) |
| 15:33.30 | [dmp] | ofcause you did |
| 15:33.38 | [dmp] | just like with the team |
| 15:33.39 | david_v | that was the fake copy :) |
| 15:33.41 | [dmp] | BIIIG mistake |
| 15:33.45 | *** join/#bzflag Chestal (thilo@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) |
| 15:33.45 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o Chestal] by ChanServ |
| 15:33.45 | david_v | the real one is not there :) |
| 15:33.51 | *** part/#bzflag Chestal (thilo@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) |
| 15:34.03 | *** join/#bzflag Chestal (thilo@vmax.unix-ag.uni-siegen.de) |
| 15:34.03 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o Chestal] by ChanServ |
| 15:34.19 | [dmp] | Oh, well.. erhm.. oops.. then i hope your fortix team is a fake too... |
| 15:34.20 | [dmp] | :) |
| 15:34.28 | david_v | what team? :) |
| 15:34.31 | Chestal | hmm, I still cannot join #gaim: You need to be identified to join that channel |
| 15:34.39 | Chestal | but I am, are FreeNode services messed up? |
| 15:34.50 | david_v | whois says you're not |
| 15:34.55 | [dmp] | same here. |
| 15:34.58 | david_v | check your server notices |
| 15:35.05 | david_v | i can join #gaim |
| 15:35.08 | Chestal | hmm |
| 15:35.31 | [dmp] | same here, and Tupone can too :) |
| 15:35.33 | david_v | [dmp]: we'll take it outside later ;) |
| 15:35.35 | Chestal | N> NickServ - Chestal You have already identified |
| 15:35.42 | Chestal | maybe my server is broken? |
| 15:35.47 | david_v | could be |
| 15:36.00 | david_v | freenode is... well... anything but reliable |
| 15:36.36 | Chestal | oh well |
| 15:36.49 | sn0w_d0ggy | you guys chit chat alot |
| 15:36.51 | sn0w_d0ggy | ;) |
| 15:36.56 | david_v | :) |
| 15:37.18 | david_v | it's unavoidable when dmp and i are in the same room :) |
| 15:37.43 | KR | take it outside, europe boys ;) |
| 15:37.46 | *** join/#bzflag bzgirl (~orchid@toronto-hs-64-26-176-100.s-ip.magma.ca) |
| 15:38.00 | KR | hi bzg |
| 15:38.04 | bzgirl | hi |
| 15:38.05 | david_v | hey bzg |
| 15:38.10 | KR | welcome to the Dane-Swiss wars |
| 15:38.13 | [dmp] | Would be a waste of energy to go from this chair because of.. hmm. |
| 15:38.18 | [dmp] | swiss? |
| 15:38.20 | david_v | KR: ehehh :) |
| 15:38.31 | david_v | didn't know i was Swiss |
| 15:38.33 | david_v | on the other hand... |
| 15:38.37 | david_v | didn't know i was Swedish either :) |
| 15:38.45 | [dmp] | hehe |
| 15:38.48 | KR | o - what are u then? |
| 15:38.48 | david_v | who should i believe, KR or dmp ? :) |
| 15:39.01 | david_v | you mean i'm supposed to now? man :) |
| 15:39.03 | david_v | *know |
| 15:39.20 | [dmp] | ~country se |
| 15:39.23 | david_v | i guess i'm a bit Swedish, a bit geekish and so on |
| 15:39.41 | KR | little bit country, little bit rock-n-roll? |
| 15:39.44 | KR | lol |
| 15:39.53 | david_v | hehe |
| 15:40.11 | KR | so u r svedish then? |
| 15:40.35 | david_v | yes :) |
| 15:40.43 | KR | wish I could find a way to make a water *mortar* |
| 15:40.55 | [dmp] | i hope he is, otherwise saying "hi swedish" dosnt make sense :) |
| 15:41.03 | [dmp] | but alot of stuff dosnt make sense |
| 15:41.09 | KR | where it would hurl 10-20 ozs at once |
| 15:41.19 | [dmp] | :) |
| 15:41.27 | KR | a "plug" of water the size of a glass of water |
| 15:41.35 | *** join/#bzflag JBDiGriz (~JBDiGriz@adsl-63-204-119-161.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) |
| 15:41.36 | KR | that would r0x0r |
| 15:42.28 | sn0w_d0ggy | hey jb |
| 15:42.33 | sn0w_d0ggy | hi bzg |
| 15:42.37 | sn0w_d0ggy | whoever joined |
| 15:50.27 | david_v | lol ... www.fortix.com exists. maybe i'll be infringing trademarks lol :) |
| 15:50.38 | david_v | shh everybody :) |
| 15:51.48 | david_v | even worse there's a CS team with the same name... oh my :) |
| 15:52.02 | david_v | only one member though :) |
| 15:53.14 | Chestal | hmm, there was an Australian band 'The Moles' |
| 15:53.25 | david_v | :) |
| 15:57.12 | sn0w_d0ggy | Heh |
| 15:57.13 | sn0w_d0ggy | :D |
| 16:00.43 | sn0w_d0ggy | hey learner |
| 16:04.16 | sn0w_d0ggy | bye |
| 16:04.17 | sn0w_d0ggy | all |
| 16:04.19 | sn0w_d0ggy | :D |
| 16:04.24 | sn0w_d0ggy | :( |
| 16:04.34 | sn0w_d0ggy | bye learner |
| 16:06.48 | *** join/#bzflag sn0w_d0ggy (~gig1992@adsl-68-78-98-163.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net) |
| 16:08.21 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@ppp-217-133-163-34.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 16:19.33 | learner | Tupone or anyone: can someone walk me through how to generate the server ping packet on the client? |
| 16:21.10 | learner | http://brlcad.org/bzflag/cvs/src/bzflag/playing.cxx |
| 16:21.29 | learner | search for joinGame |
| 16:22.17 | learner | actually.. search for "making" |
| 16:25.40 | david_v | wow... big news. a wallop not about a Freenode problem! |
| 16:35.55 | learner | ~bzfls |
| 16:35.56 | | hmm... bzfls is the BZFlag List Server |
| 16:36.02 | learner | ~bzflist |
| 16:36.21 | david_v | brlcad.org hm :) |
| 16:36.22 | learner | hrmm |
| 16:44.44 | *** join/#bzflag Patlabor221 (~jeffm@adsl-64-172-196-92.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 16:44.44 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o Patlabor221] by ChanServ |
| 16:54.19 | *** part/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@ppp-217-133-163-34.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 16:54.34 | learner | eep |
| 16:55.05 | Patlabor221 | eep? |
| 16:55.25 | learner | I was scratching tupone's brain when he left |
| 16:55.38 | Patlabor221 | eww |
| 16:56.14 | david_v | brain surgery on the fly? interesting :) |
| 16:57.23 | learner | what does a ping code wand on send()? |
| 16:57.52 | learner | e.g. send(MsgPingCodeRequest, someLength, someData); |
| 17:39.30 | learner | yo Quol |
| 17:39.47 | Quol | yo yo yo learner |
| 17:40.18 | Quol | so - I had an upsetting retail experience just now... |
| 17:40.40 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (~timr@proxyle01.ext.ti.com) |
| 17:40.40 | JBDiGriz | you lost your tail, and it had to be sewn back on ? |
| 17:40.51 | Quol | Walked into a big computer retail outlet (FutureShop) - lolJB |
| 17:40.59 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:41.11 | Quol | and asked for the latest and greats SoundBlaster Audigy 2 Platnum Pro ZS |
| 17:41.30 | Quol | they told me that it was *impossible* to *ever* order it |
| 17:41.58 | Quol | the employee told the taht I may as well be asking him to buy a car from them - what a joke |
| 17:42.21 | learner | gotta love cynicism |
| 17:42.57 | JBDiGriz | That's right the east coast doesn't have Fry's, so you don't have the wealth of retail stories. |
| 17:42.58 | Quol | had 500$ cash in my pocket - showed it to him and asked to talk with a manager - apparently the largest PC outlet in canada can't get the latest sound blaster card that retails around 350$ |
| 17:43.00 | *** join/#bzflag mmu_man (~revol@ALyon-209-1-36-2.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 17:43.11 | Patlabor221 | never buy retail |
| 17:43.13 | TimRiker | I'm thinking we should get the new bzfls up with user registration before launching 1.10 anyone have thoughts on that? |
| 17:43.16 | *** join/#bzflag tapo (~tjabo@p50928C1F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 17:43.29 | Quol | Pat - I want to buy retail for the software bundle that comes with the card |
| 17:43.29 | Patlabor221 | you have a plan for the registration? |
| 17:43.47 | TimRiker | 1st get bzflag/bzfs to use web calls for bzfls |
| 17:43.52 | Patlabor221 | quol, you can get the retail packate, just never get it at a store, order online, much cheaper |
| 17:43.56 | TimRiker | the perl script is fine, we can replace it later. |
| 17:44.40 | Quol | Pat - I need to order through them though - have gift certificates worth 500$ - that's my "Cash" unfortunately - otherwise I agree |
| 17:44.46 | TimRiker | then bzflag will do a http call to bzfls with user/password, get a token, and present it to bzfs. bzfs confirms with bzfls and you're in as a registered. |
| 17:44.51 | learner | Tim: it's already been a very long time since the last release |
| 17:44.57 | TimRiker | course you can just join as present without a "token". |
| 17:45.31 | Patlabor221 | everyone thinks that 1.10 is not gonna ship soon, why not prove them right. |
| 17:45.41 | TimRiker | learner: agreed. but global registration would be a significant change and I think a lot of folks would try that out. |
| 17:45.52 | learner | many of us have been holding off on adding features in the hopes of shipping |
| 17:46.16 | learner | Tim: sure, but why hold things up yet another month/week/day for it?? |
| 17:46.18 | Patlabor221 | jbd, no MAC gave up last night, he was broken |
| 17:46.22 | bzgirl | Quol: you can get that at greytech $319.95 CDN |
| 17:46.36 | Chestal | I agree with not releasing at this point |
| 17:46.41 | learner | yes, I think it's shippable now |
| 17:46.51 | Chestal | as always, I want more testing :-) I haven't een able to do any tests for over 2 weeks |
| 17:46.51 | TimRiker | the debian build is ready, we can ship if we like. |
| 17:46.58 | TimRiker | Chestal: why? |
| 17:47.08 | Chestal | TimRiker: busy with other things or not motivated |
| 17:47.14 | Patlabor221 | open GL is faked in windows |
| 17:47.18 | Chestal | I fear that 1.10 will have its share of problems |
| 17:47.22 | Patlabor221 | when you alt tab out and in |
| 17:47.24 | Chestal | very hard to test an incompatible version |
| 17:47.27 | TimRiker | ah. I thought you meant it was not compiling or something. |
| 17:48.14 | Chestal | and there are stil issues with BZDB, have been too lazy to write anythign about it to the dev mailing list (has been discussed here before, but this channel is too volatile for more complicated things) |
| 17:48.18 | learner | hey, but the known significant bugs are fixed |
| 17:48.29 | TimRiker | Chestal: what issues? |
| 17:48.32 | Chestal | not sure about the rendering bugs I had |
| 17:48.34 | learner | and it's definatley playable |
| 17:48.51 | Quol | bzgirl - thanks, I only have gift certificates with Future shop at the momment though - will do that as a last resort - wrote FutureShop a nice polite yet 'slap-in-the-face-ish' mail about how I can order the card at almost any other retail/online store - this is one more I will add to the arsenal :) |
| 17:49.00 | Chestal | TimRiker: wante dto propose a better general handlign of globals with caching, and there are callback dependency issues |
| 17:49.11 | Chestal | and some points which I would like to have explained |
| 17:49.31 | Chestal | we expect 1.12 to break protocol again I assume? |
| 17:49.39 | Patlabor221 | why not |
| 17:49.41 | learner | yes.. |
| 17:49.50 | Chestal | some features in 1.10 look very prototypical to me, I guess it#s ok to test them by releasing |
| 17:49.58 | learner | so ship it now and make it more clean later |
| 17:50.08 | Chestal | but breakign protocol often is difficult, too |
| 17:50.17 | Chestal | it will split the community |
| 17:50.21 | learner | it's not like there are known issues that we're releasing into the wild and it has been tested |
| 17:50.39 | Chestal | not much real testign has been done |
| 17:50.40 | Patlabor221 | 1.10 is slower on windows, and uses more mem |
| 17:50.48 | Chestal | nbecause it's virtually impossible to do so |
| 17:50.49 | Patlabor221 | will no longer run on a 32 meg windows system |
| 17:51.16 | Chestal | so, we really should have some kille rfeature to motivate peopel to come over |
| 17:51.17 | learner | I've done quite a bit of testing on my servers -- that just leaves traditional ctf to be really tested |
| 17:51.30 | Chestal | learner: well, the onyl real test is real playaing with lots of players |
| 17:51.47 | Patlabor221 | your vote stuff has seen little real world testing |
| 17:51.48 | Chestal | learner: and that is almost imposible to achieve with a new protocol |
| 17:52.05 | Patlabor221 | not unless you can get a group of dedicated testers |
| 17:52.13 | Chestal | there are still some significant BUGS listes in BUGS, too |
| 17:52.27 | learner | which is why releasing is a good thing -- we don't have enough dev'ers online at once to do anything more |
| 17:52.30 | Chestal | the number of BUGS has been increasing, not decreasing over the course of time |
| 17:52.46 | Chestal | then it would be kind of an intermediate release |
| 17:52.57 | Chestal | most peopel woudl probably still play with 1.7 |
| 17:52.58 | learner | sure, why not? |
| 17:53.13 | Chestal | this poses some problems |
| 17:53.21 | TimRiker | still need to add global users/groups and server picked enter points and server assigned teams sounds like a Good Thing. etc. |
| 17:53.22 | learner | but there will be a whole new community that will stick with the newest |
| 17:53.29 | Chestal | I really think that there should only be one active version used out there |
| 17:53.37 | TimRiker | I hope the protocol settles down soon though. |
| 17:53.46 | learner | Tim: they are all great things, just not necessary to release... |
| 17:53.50 | Chestal | server picked ente rpoints sound almost impossible to me righ tnow |
| 17:54.16 | learner | MAC said it rather well the other day.. "make the madness stop!" :) |
| 17:54.20 | Chestal | (unless the algortihm uses is a very dumb one) |
| 17:54.38 | Patlabor221 | and dosn't take shots into account |
| 17:54.48 | Patlabor221 | that's what mac's problem with it was |
| 17:54.59 | Chestal | yes, takign shots into account is impossible righ tnow |
| 17:55.04 | TimRiker | learner: the point is that all those things will break compatibility again. |
| 17:55.26 | learner | so for 1.12, maybe some better/more thought needs to be in a negotiation protocol so that we're not breaking compatibility over and over |
| 17:55.29 | Patlabor221 | with your current system you can't add anything with out breaking protocoll |
| 17:55.32 | TimRiker | it's tough to get the community to move, forcing more that one protocol breaking move it going to be a challenge. |
| 17:55.53 | learner | and the 4-12 months it takes to get it right for 1.12 will be justified |
| 17:56.06 | learner | 1.7g2 is getting stale |
| 17:56.21 | learner | sf stats have us dropping like a rock |
| 17:56.36 | learner | from a release standpoint, we are rather inactive |
| 17:57.05 | TimRiker | Chestal: even if the algorithm is an extremely dumb one, we can fix the server without forcing all the clients to upgrade. that's the point of changing it. not that it would be better from the start. |
| 17:57.09 | Chestal | well, up to now people would generally want to have the newest version |
| 17:57.27 | Chestal | after 1.10 is released, some would liek to have both versions installed, at least for some time |
| 17:58.04 | TimRiker | I plan do stop my 1.7 servers when 1.10 is released. |
| 17:58.08 | Chestal | TimRiker: hmm, but I am not sure if it's possible to implement it in the server now in an acceptable way |
| 17:58.20 | TimRiker | any way == acceptable way. |
| 17:58.22 | learner | so thought needs to be made so that this happens less frequently -- but that's still not a reason to hold back 1.10 |
| 17:58.26 | Patlabor221 | perhaps it would be good to look inot an active update system for users, so that all these breaks won't affect them that much |
| 17:58.30 | learner | I mean.. how MANY months has it been?! |
| 17:58.35 | Chestal | TimRiker: not acceptable when its much worse than before |
| 17:58.44 | TimRiker | learner: patches welcome. |
| 17:59.06 | Chestal | peopel can downlaod 1.10 already |
| 17:59.08 | learner | Gladly.. if we ship 1.10 :) |
| 17:59.20 | Patlabor221 | guess this project will never be more then a toy to it's maintainer then |
| 17:59.29 | learner | niet.. they can download 1.9, which we've made clear is developer |
| 17:59.33 | TimRiker | Chestal: yes it is acceptable. even if it's horrible. what's not acceptable it to want to work on it, but not have any testers cause it's another protocol breaking release. |
| 17:59.34 | Chestal | well, ok |
| 18:00.08 | Chestal | if we want not to break protocol between 1.10 and 1.12 I feel that there is need for quite some planning |
| 18:00.16 | TimRiker | Patlabor221: huh? it's a toy to everyone. what's your point? |
| 18:00.54 | Patlabor221 | the point is that some devs want to tread the development of it seriously, to devs it is a serious hobby, not jsut a hodge podge of features |
| 18:00.58 | Patlabor221 | its is a game yes. |
| 18:01.14 | Patlabor221 | but dosn't mean it can't be treated like a real project from the inside |
| 18:01.28 | Chestal | well, it is a real project |
| 18:01.36 | Chestal | to really enahnce it, it needs some major redesigning |
| 18:01.39 | Patlabor221 | is it? |
| 18:01.43 | Chestal | but that's a lot of thinking work |
| 18:01.44 | Patlabor221 | does it have a roadmap? |
| 18:01.47 | Chestal | and noone wants to do that |
| 18:02.03 | Patlabor221 | does ANYONE except Tim have an idea where the project is to go? |
| 18:02.05 | Chestal | so far we have only made small changes to it |
| 18:02.07 | TimRiker | Patlabor221: I'm still missing the point. I started this conversation pointing out some protocol breaking issues. |
| 18:02.09 | learner | but a solitary road is not one taken wisely |
| 18:02.23 | Chestal | Patlabor: IMHO the main issues have been known for 1-2 years |
| 18:02.23 | Patlabor221 | all we ever get is "Patches welcome" and that tells me, "work on it yourslef, cus we don't want to help" |
| 18:02.39 | Patlabor221 | Chestal longer even |
| 18:02.41 | *** join/#bzflag MrCooper (~daenzer@dclient80-218-115-158.hispeed.ch) |
| 18:02.57 | TimRiker | I would like the new release to be stable for a while. moving right away to another protocol breaking release will be tough. so what we choose to do network wise for 1.10 we will have to live with for a while. |
| 18:02.58 | Chestal | that's a solution to the cheatign problem (karms + more server state) and better lag handling |
| 18:03.24 | Patlabor221 | unless you make it so that protocoll changes don't affect the end users that much |
| 18:03.32 | learner | So we live with 1.10 for 6-12 months and really work on redesign |
| 18:03.40 | Patlabor221 | then they don't care what we change, as long as they can keep playing, |
| 18:03.47 | learner | get the networking issues "solved" |
| 18:04.07 | Patlabor221 | get gamestate removed to a seperate thing, get the GL state fixed, etc.... |
| 18:04.18 | Patlabor221 | make it easy to modify, not a pain. |
| 18:05.17 | Patlabor221 | very rarely do I see any devs here actualy "design" something. most just make some code, submit a patch, or check it in. and then hilarity ensues |
| 18:05.19 | learner | a roadmap/design plan for what the users and developers can expect over the next year would be useful |
| 18:05.21 | TimRiker | Patlabor221: it comes down to this: this is not a paid project. I can't mandate that certian things get worked on. |
| 18:05.31 | Patlabor221 | it's not payed I know, |
| 18:05.34 | Patlabor221 | but you can ask |
| 18:05.41 | Patlabor221 | and many of us WOULD do what you asked |
| 18:05.42 | TimRiker | I think I've done a decent job of stating the things that need to get worked on. |
| 18:05.52 | Patlabor221 | or even just let us know what you have in plan |
| 18:05.52 | TimRiker | that does not mean they have been though. |
| 18:05.54 | JBDiGriz | But you can lay out a plan, and we can then understand what we can do to make that plan come to fruition. |
| 18:06.09 | Patlabor221 | right now we have to wait around for you to appear and pry out some info |
| 18:06.17 | JBDiGriz | That was part of the network meeting was to lay out a plan, but we got sidetracked on detail. |
| 18:06.18 | Patlabor221 | we WILL help you, just let us |
| 18:06.37 | Chestal | my impression is that we just do not have enough peopel with enough time, but maybe I am extrapolatign from my own experience |
| 18:06.44 | TimRiker | I'd like to get the network protocol to a state where we can live with it for a while. that's the priority cause it's what is tough to get changed from a community perspctive. |
| 18:06.47 | Patlabor221 | even more reason to have plans |
| 18:06.55 | Chestal | I also feel that using the dev ml woudl be extremely helpful |
| 18:06.59 | Patlabor221 | so that when peple do get time, they don't waste it looking for somethign to do |
| 18:07.06 | Chestal | all of the discussions are on this channel and lost |
| 18:07.09 | Patlabor221 | yeah |
| 18:07.13 | TimRiker | so, I'd like to see anything that will break compatibility fixed soon. |
| 18:07.14 | Patlabor221 | it's just chat crap |
| 18:07.17 | Chestal | and this channel has becoem to noisy to read it all |
| 18:07.33 | TimRiker | Patlabor221: so implement the KarmaSystem. ok? |
| 18:07.34 | Chestal | if there was a discussion on the ml, I woudl read it and probably add to it |
| 18:07.37 | Patlabor221 | so Tim, what IS that list of stuff |
| 18:07.40 | TimRiker | Patlabor221: so implement the KarmaSystem. ok? |
| 18:07.45 | Patlabor221 | how, how do you want it done? |
| 18:07.52 | learner | Tim: which brings us back to .. let's release 1.10 and live with it for a while -- in the meantime we can really rework/rethink and plan |
| 18:07.53 | Patlabor221 | I know you have an idea in your head |
| 18:07.55 | TimRiker | see the KarmaSystem web page. |
| 18:08.13 | TimRiker | we need a replacement to bzfls (which we have a simple perl hack) |
| 18:08.18 | Patlabor221 | so you want me, who dosn't beilve the karam system will work to implemnt it? |
| 18:08.32 | TimRiker | we need the clients and bzfs doing web requests instead of bzflist: crap. |
| 18:08.47 | Patlabor221 | sadly I don't know perl, so I would be a bad choice for that |
| 18:08.48 | learner | the lack of lib organization (libGame anyone?) is one of the main reasons I haven't gotten far with the AI, and that's something I'd love to work on |
| 18:08.53 | TimRiker | Patlabor221: ah. so your point is not that there is no plan, just that you don't like the plan? |
| 18:09.12 | Patlabor221 | the plans are lose |
| 18:09.20 | Patlabor221 | I don't mind not liking the plan, |
| 18:09.21 | Chestal | learner: yes, we need somethign liek that, but that loosk to be the biggest change of all |
| 18:09.31 | learner | Is the plan documented somewhere (other than irc logs)? |
| 18:09.32 | Patlabor221 | but the plans are very very short sighted |
| 18:09.50 | Patlabor221 | there is no global plan, just little plans for little things |
| 18:09.52 | Chestal | the karma issue is nto that short-sighted |
| 18:09.55 | Chestal | at leas tth einitial plans |
| 18:10.00 | Patlabor221 | I can't find a plan I want to work on and do i t |
| 18:10.00 | TimRiker | learner: see the KarmaSystem page. |
| 18:10.10 | learner | that's only one feature, though |
| 18:10.11 | Patlabor221 | Chestal, they are in how they work with the existing system |
| 18:10.18 | Patlabor221 | does it replace the current server side reg? |
| 18:10.22 | learner | I mean, plans for the entire project |
| 18:10.27 | Patlabor221 | the roadmap |
| 18:10.32 | Patlabor221 | I am more of a graphics guy |
| 18:10.39 | Chestal | well, the server side reg was introduced after the initial karma planning |
| 18:10.40 | TimRiker | the top priorities are the protocol breaking issues. |
| 18:10.43 | Patlabor221 | I don't know what you want at all for that |
| 18:10.48 | Chestal | mainly because there was no work on the big thing |
| 18:10.54 | TimRiker | the graphics and restricturing are not top priorities. |
| 18:10.59 | learner | and I a libs/ai/server guy |
| 18:11.02 | Patlabor221 | Chestal,yes, but still does the karama replace that? |
| 18:11.17 | TimRiker | they would be nice, but as they will not break network compatibility they are not the priorities. |
| 18:11.19 | Patlabor221 | ok, TimRiker, then where is the list of priorities? |
| 18:11.21 | learner | but graphics could use some serious work |
| 18:11.31 | Chestal | Patlabor: noone has really thoguht about that, i.e. the synchronization between server and lsit server registries |
| 18:11.39 | Patlabor221 | you seem to have a list in your head, we need tos ee it |
| 18:11.51 | Patlabor221 | I know chestal, somone should! |
| 18:11.52 | Chestal | TimRiker: the restructuring IMHO is a major point, at least when we want to have robots. There is no other way to do robots IMHO |
| 18:12.05 | TimRiker | I do not intend to document all the possible things that can be done. I'm asking for help on the top priorities which are the things that break network protocols. |
| 18:12.27 | Patlabor221 | how bout just the things you would LIKE to see |
| 18:12.28 | TimRiker | the karma system is the top priority and I am asking for help in implementing it. |
| 18:12.29 | Patlabor221 | so we know |
| 18:12.40 | learner | Tim: if I were to write up a plan/roadmap, would you sign off on it? |
| 18:12.44 | TimRiker | I've seen very little interest in this top priority. |
| 18:13.06 | TimRiker | instead I see a lot of other interest in bits that do not effect network protocol |
| 18:13.14 | learner | and contribute.. |
| 18:13.16 | Patlabor221 | yeah cus we can do those easy |
| 18:13.16 | TimRiker | they are fine to do, but can all be done later. |
| 18:13.38 | TimRiker | the top priority is the network code. ie: karma system and server picked entry points, etc. |
| 18:14.02 | TimRiker | I put them on the list as "this must be fixed" and folks say "that's too tough. let's do it later". |
| 18:14.07 | learner | To be honest, tim, I don't think anyone wants to "hack in" a karma system, and the library layout is presently rather prohibitive of such a major integration |
| 18:14.14 | Patlabor221 | mostly on the karma plan, I don't see any mention of how it's suposed to look end user wise? |
| 18:14.15 | learner | to do it right |
| 18:14.24 | Patlabor221 | use /commands? |
| 18:14.32 | TimRiker | I feel as though you are telling me that I've not been giving direction. have you not heard these things I've been asking for? |
| 18:14.40 | TimRiker | do I need to be asking more? |
| 18:14.50 | TimRiker | should I be updating some wiki page so make it clearer? |
| 18:15.01 | TimRiker | should I me mailing the -dev list weekly? |
| 18:15.05 | Patlabor221 | or put in something in the client that has name and pass |
| 18:15.22 | Chestal | registration should be intrgrated in the client |
| 18:15.35 | TimRiker | would any of this help to get folks working on the network breaking changes instead of griping about how I'm not giving direction? or that there is no plan? |
| 18:15.35 | JBDiGriz | You need to provide an overall perspective. I've tried to make the Work in progress wiki have more of an overall perspective. |
| 18:15.36 | Patlabor221 | tell us how you want it to look, not nesiarialy work, and we will do it, you've told us how it works, but not how it looks |
| 18:15.42 | Chestal | the perfect solution would be to use certificates |
| 18:15.42 | TimRiker | what exactly would you have me do? |
| 18:15.48 | Patlabor221 | we don't need detail, we need overview |
| 18:15.50 | learner | tim, a wiki roadmap or something in cvs would not be a bad idea regardless |
| 18:16.10 | TimRiker | I ask now for help, and I get, oh. thanx, but I'm not insterested in your plan. oh... and do you have a plan? |
| 18:16.24 | TimRiker | what is your issue? |
| 18:16.35 | TimRiker | it's clear that it's not "there is no plan" |
| 18:16.39 | learner | i.e. what needs to happen to make the karma system (and other major ideas) work beforehand |
| 18:16.57 | Chestal | Patlabor: when you have a point which is unclear, i.e. you are not sure how the UI for regitration shoudl look like and there has been no consensus on this before, then this needs to be dsicussed |
| 18:17.05 | TimRiker | but rather "we don't like the plan unless it's just to piddle around in the area of the code that we are interested in playing with". |
| 18:17.08 | Chestal | I woudl suggest to propose soemthign on the ml and then we can discuss it there |
| 18:17.26 | TimRiker | well, fine. piddle around. but cut the crap about "there is no plan". |
| 18:17.27 | Patlabor221 | yes it does, an implemtation was decided on before even end user requirements were defined |
| 18:17.46 | TimRiker | if you want to say "I choose not to work on the plan" that's fine. work on what you like. |
| 18:17.54 | Chestal | IIRC there have only been some vague ideas on the UI |
| 18:17.57 | Patlabor221 | there does not seem to be a global plan, like where BZ will be next year |
| 18:18.20 | TimRiker | that does not change that I _have_ asked for help on the things that I feel are important and that nobody wants to help. |
| 18:18.24 | JBDiGriz | TimRiker: We're all trying to work together here, but we need to find a method where we all understand what we're doing. |
| 18:18.42 | TimRiker | who did the udp changes? the one I asked for for wuite some time? anyone sign up for that? |
| 18:19.17 | TimRiker | no. everyone waited till I did them. well fine. if I'm the one doing the top priority tasks. then jsut wait till I get to them. |
| 18:19.31 | TimRiker | cut the crap about "there is no plan". I've heard it. |
| 18:20.06 | TimRiker | I ask for help, I get none. (on the critical path features). fine. I accept changes on other things. we are getting improvements made. |
| 18:20.22 | TimRiker | anyone that wants to can contribute. folks have. |
| 18:20.36 | TimRiker | that does not mean they are working on what I would choose to work on. |
| 18:20.59 | JBDiGriz | Take a look at what you do get. Most of the people are trying to help and getting frustrated. I understand that you're frustrated as well, but everyone here is trying to cooperate. |
| 18:21.01 | learner | Tim: it's not that others don't want to help -- few know the code well enough to make certain changes correctly. I would have loved to do it, but didn't know where to begin. |
| 18:21.02 | TimRiker | and I'll be darned if I will try to force people to work on the things I'd like to see happen first. |
| 18:21.12 | TimRiker | they are all improvements. they all help. |
| 18:21.28 | TimRiker | however, if you ask me what the plan is... you'll hear what you have heard before. |
| 18:21.39 | Chestal | well, I fear it isn't easy for anyone here to make any of the major changes |
| 18:21.53 | TimRiker | the NETWORK changes. the KARMA SYSTEM. server picked entry points. has anyone no heard these before? |
| 18:21.56 | TimRiker | are they new? |
| 18:22.08 | TimRiker | is this the first time for anyone? |
| 18:22.11 | Chestal | well, soem work on these has been done |
| 18:22.16 | TimRiker | what the crap do you expect? |
| 18:22.29 | TimRiker | you will keep asking till I say what you want to hear? |
| 18:22.33 | TimRiker | not likely. |
| 18:22.36 | Chestal | e.g. I remember a docuemnt with soem ideas for lag handling by Patlabor |
| 18:22.40 | learner | what needs to happen to make that happen, though? are libs going to be reworked or are we hacking something in and living with the existing code? |
| 18:22.49 | TimRiker | sorry for the fuming. I'll stop for a bit and read. |
| 18:22.56 | Chestal | I disagree with soem of his points, but IMHO there has not been enoguh discussion on that subject |
| 18:23.10 | Chestal | and liek always, when the discussins are only made on this #, it doesn't work |
| 18:23.19 | learner | right |
| 18:23.28 | learner | the channel traffic is very ephermeral |
| 18:23.42 | Chestal | we really need to use the ml list or somethign similar more |
| 18:23.47 | learner | the wipi is what we _are_ doing -- not plans |
| 18:24.03 | Chestal | wipi is not useful for cummunication |
| 18:24.11 | Chestal | it is useful to store shared documents |
| 18:24.32 | Chestal | which can be discussed on the ml, then changed |
| 18:24.37 | learner | the other docs lay out how a certain feature or idea is thought up, but doesn't lay out where we need to be working to make them happen |
| 18:25.03 | Chestal | of course this # is a good place for discussins, too, but at least a condensed version of the discussons should be put on the ml |
| 18:25.09 | learner | Chestal: agreed, although I think cvs is better still imo |
| 18:25.55 | Chestal | it's the same for some commits |
| 18:25.56 | learner | # traffic is only useful for figuring how what to work on tonight and tomorrow -- not next month or next year |
| 18:26.16 | learner | and yes, list is better for "discussions" |
| 18:26.17 | Chestal | if a commit does some not-so-minor change or introduces a new feature, it would be great if it would be outlined somehwere |
| 18:26.40 | Chestal | I am also guilty of just committing something, then explainign it on the # |
| 18:26.46 | JBDiGriz | The work-in-progress does have future plans, separated by my feeble attempts into some possible areas. |
| 18:27.13 | learner | I would have called them future ideas, not plans :/ |
| 18:27.30 | Chestal | the problem is that just babblign here is easier than to write some meanignful post to the ml |
| 18:27.35 | TimRiker | so. having read and calmed down... |
| 18:27.36 | Chestal | and we are all lazy :-) |
| 18:27.38 | JBDiGriz | They need some management direction before they can become plans. |
| 18:27.41 | learner | Chestal: I've never done that.. don't know what you're talking about =) [evil grin] |
| 18:28.00 | JBDiGriz | :{) |
| 18:28.04 | TimRiker | I'd like to get a real karma system working. I'd like to have global groups and a web site that interfaces to it. |
| 18:28.11 | learner | Tim: so whip it? :) |
| 18:28.14 | learner | I mean ship it? :) |
| 18:28.18 | TimRiker | I think we've (I've) fixed the udp networking issue. |
| 18:28.31 | Chestal | TimRiker: udp issue = NAT? |
| 18:28.46 | TimRiker | this should eliminate the percieved cheating that often happens with firewalls. |
| 18:29.02 | TimRiker | that's been the biggest issue with 1.7 as far as I've seen. |
| 18:29.16 | TimRiker | BZFlag's issue is not "it's missing feature x" |
| 18:29.33 | TimRiker | it's the cheating. and the percieved cheating with udp issus. |
| 18:29.42 | Chestal | and lag |
| 18:29.58 | Chestal | overall, I am quite satisfied with bzflag as is |
| 18:29.59 | TimRiker | I think the one is fixed. I think the only long term fix to actual cheating is a karma system. |
| 18:30.20 | TimRiker | Chestal: good point. lag and scalability should be on that list. |
| 18:30.52 | TimRiker | laser need to be shortened. then we need to send infrequent updates for distant players. |
| 18:31.08 | TimRiker | this will allow us to scale further and handle more players on slower lines. |
| 18:31.17 | Chestal | as has been discussed several times here, there are 2 solutons to cheating issues: 1) social solution (karma) 2) technical solution (most promising: more server state) |
| 18:31.21 | learner | The libraries are rather prohibitive to making changes, from what I've seen -- the biggest issues being the need for a separation of libCommon and the need for a libGame |
| 18:31.24 | TimRiker | I'd like to see the player "relay" for the same reason. |
| 18:31.37 | TimRiker | learner: cut the library restructure crap..... |
| 18:31.41 | Chestal | neither 1) nor 2) can really solve the problem, but we decided that 1) was more promising |
| 18:31.49 | TimRiker | I agree. they are crap. fine. they are crap. |
| 18:32.08 | TimRiker | no player cares. they can be fixed at any time without breaking compatibility. |
| 18:32.15 | Chestal | TimRiker: IMHO learner has a point with the restructuring |
| 18:32.22 | Chestal | it woudl be great to have the game logic encapsulated |
| 18:32.23 | learner | Tim: No need for that, I'm giving an honest feeling. |
| 18:32.27 | TimRiker | if someone wants to restructure them. fine. patches welcome. |
| 18:32.34 | TimRiker | that is NOT the priority. |
| 18:32.41 | learner | I'm not meaning to flame, in the least. |
| 18:32.52 | Chestal | well, I feel it's a prerequisite before some of the major changes are feasible |
| 18:33.03 | TimRiker | then can we stick to what's important for a new release? |
| 18:33.19 | Chestal | but maybe the major changes that wouldn't be possible otherwise are not top priority, although it would be very nice to have them (roots come to mind) |
| 18:33.28 | TimRiker | learner: or are you saying that library restructure is more important than lag and cheating? |
| 18:33.37 | learner | So the conversation is back to short term, then? |
| 18:33.50 | TimRiker | no. the conversation is back to priorities. |
| 18:34.02 | learner | Tim: I think to properly address lag and cheating that a lib restructuring is necessary |
| 18:34.22 | *** join/#bzflag doughecka (~~joe@adsl-68-133.lou.bluegrass.net) |
| 18:34.22 | TimRiker | library restucturing can happen _at any time_ and protocol breaking things need to happen _all at the same time_. |
| 18:34.38 | doughecka | k |
| 18:34.46 | learner | there is networking duplication in both bzfs and bzflag, for example |
| 18:34.52 | TimRiker | so let's do the protocol breaking things now. cause we already broke things and nobody is using the broken version. |
| 18:35.02 | TimRiker | well, the changed version. ;-) |
| 18:35.45 | Chestal | looks like we are back at the small steps / big steps discussion |
| 18:35.58 | Chestal | MAC's point was that 1.8 died because it was too big a step |
| 18:36.05 | learner | indeed |
| 18:36.40 | Chestal | I amnot quite sure what to think |
| 18:36.48 | Chestal | mayb eht real problem is breakign protocol |
| 18:36.50 | learner | but we can start migrating towards a certain architecture if we could agree to one and document it |
| 18:37.05 | Chestal | I was always playing with the dev versions in 1.7 because they were compatible, and had some improvements |
| 18:37.19 | Chestal | so I was eager to test them, fix bugs and make small improvements myself |
| 18:37.26 | TimRiker | agreed. |
| 18:37.31 | learner | I think small steps are necessary |
| 18:37.47 | TimRiker | let's get the protocol breaking things in without breaking anything else. |
| 18:37.47 | Chestal | if we had smart bots, it migh tbe fun to play-test 1.9 :-) |
| 18:38.07 | learner | Hence why I push to release 1.10 -- it's stable and the further we go, the more drastic a jump |
| 18:38.10 | TimRiker | then move the community over to the new protcol and get back to non-protocol breaking things. |
| 18:38.33 | Chestal | but to make all the protocol changes now requires a fair amount of hindsight |
| 18:38.36 | TimRiker | if the protocol we move to has more flexibility, playing with the live version will be more fun. |
| 18:38.41 | *** join/#bzflag MrApathyCream (~MAC@balt-209-163-100-89.qis-dynamic-dialup.coretel.net) |
| 18:38.41 | TimRiker | and I'm all about fun. ;-) |
| 18:38.54 | Chestal | of course we can always extend the protocol slightly and stay baackwards compatible |
| 18:38.56 | learner | well lookie who shows up =) |
| 18:38.59 | Chestal | liek we did in 1.7 several times |
| 18:39.09 | TimRiker | Chestal: agreed. |
| 18:39.11 | TimRiker | brb |
| 18:39.35 | Chestal | hi MAC, you've been missing some heated discussion :-) |
| 18:39.45 | learner | to put it lightly |
| 18:51.18 | TimRiker | so... anyone care to help with the karma system or the server picked enter locations? or the shortened laser? |
| 18:51.35 | TimRiker | or converting the bzflist: requests over to web requests? |
| 18:52.03 | MrApathyCream | wassa |
| 18:52.14 | TimRiker | I'm not going to get to all those in the next weeks. I might do some of them. |
| 18:52.41 | MrApathyCream | i help with all of them after 1.1 releases :) |
| 18:53.01 | TimRiker | will we all wait till I get to them? or should we release what we've got and spend the next months on this current protocol. dealing with issues and convincing folks to move? |
| 18:53.14 | MrApathyCream | yes 1.10 |
| 18:53.23 | MrApathyCream | release what we got |
| 18:54.13 | learner | Tim: I'd love to help, but I very strongly think it's time to release as I think it's going to take a *while* to do those issues |
| 18:54.29 | learner | but, I am willing to help, regardless |
| 18:55.03 | TimRiker | learner: releasing now means we won't be doing those things. |
| 18:55.13 | learner | why not? |
| 18:55.17 | TimRiker | at least not till sometime next year. |
| 18:55.22 | TimRiker | they break the protocol. |
| 18:55.27 | learner | we could tag 1.10 and keep a patches branch open on it |
| 18:55.28 | MrApathyCream | and? |
| 18:55.37 | MrApathyCream | every release should break protocol, imo |
| 18:55.40 | TimRiker | learner. not likely. |
| 18:55.56 | TimRiker | MrApathyCream: to be avoided. |
| 18:56.10 | TimRiker | folks won't move to a moving target. |
| 18:56.38 | TimRiker | the point is to lessen the forced-upgrade-across-all-platforms pain. |
| 18:57.58 | TimRiker | thanx all for the thoughts. and for listening to me fume. we now return to your regularly scheduled program already in progress. |
| 18:58.17 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (Tupone@ppp-62-11-21-177.dialup.tiscali.it) |
| 18:58.18 | learner | Tim, it's not so horrible to release now and have another major protocol release in 4-6 months -- as long as that subsequent release is the last for a very long time |
| 18:58.46 | learner | last protocol-breaking release, that is |
| 19:03.12 | learner | Tupone: when I send the ping request, I don't get back ping code reply back :( |
| 19:03.55 | Tupone | learner: :( |
| 19:04.32 | learner | at least not in the first 10000 packets |
| 19:06.36 | MrApathyCream | i just dont understand this paranoia about making people upgrade..its a farking game |
| 19:07.05 | learner | where were you an hour ago. |
| 19:08.36 | MrApathyCream | sorry dev meetings are at nite :) |
| 19:08.49 | learner | :) |
| 19:09.14 | MrApathyCream | who does he think is going to do all this stuff? |
| 19:09.31 | MrApathyCream | there's no one here anymore.... stupid |
| 19:09.44 | learner | he thinks he is the only one willing to do the stuff he wants |
| 19:10.00 | learner | in a sense, he's correct but not for the reasons he thinks |
| 19:10.15 | MrApathyCream | says the guy who's key contribution this time was 'ws' |
| 19:11.20 | learner | he actually hinted at the fact that most of the work done was petty -- which is disturbing on many levels |
| 19:11.34 | MrApathyCream | he has no clue |
| 19:11.46 | learner | people are trying, I am trying, but I'm not getting any warm fuzzies to keep trying |
| 19:12.04 | MrApathyCream | yup |
| 19:12.40 | Chestal | well, everyone here appreciates the work of every other developer, at least I assume they do |
| 19:12.57 | Chestal | Pat was ciriticizing that the project lacked a plan and assignments of tasks to people |
| 19:13.25 | Chestal | and Tim said that noone was going for the top priority targets (which is true, because they are not so easy to do in most cases) |
| 19:13.38 | Chestal | but you can read it all in the logs |
| 19:13.44 | MrApathyCream | i am happy to take criticism from people who contribute |
| 19:13.50 | Chestal | my main proposal was to use the mailing lists more |
| 19:13.54 | learner | Chestal: I got the feeling that if we are not working on Karma, why are be bothering? |
| 19:14.15 | Chestal | learner: uhm, I don't understand |
| 19:14.20 | learner | s/be/we/ |
| 19:14.20 | MrApathyCream | imo what tim wants to do would have absolutely no effect on the popularity |
| 19:14.34 | learner | it's a CS project |
| 19:15.26 | learner | interesting and perhaps clever, but not most important in terms of keeping bz moving forward and evolving an d being maintainable code-wise |
| 19:15.48 | Chestal | well, it tries to attack one of the main issues of the game |
| 19:15.51 | learner | that's part of what pat was screaming upon deaf ears |
| 19:16.20 | MrApathyCream | chestal? what issue? |
| 19:16.23 | Chestal | aren'T cheatign and lag still the main concerns? |
| 19:16.27 | learner | it is, but it's still one solution to one isolated problem -- all built upon very shaky code |
| 19:16.31 | Chestal | karma to tackle cheating |
| 19:16.34 | MrApathyCream | Chestal: lag is, cheating is not, imo |
| 19:16.47 | learner | lag is a MUCH bigger issue, I believe |
| 19:16.49 | MrApathyCream | yes |
| 19:16.51 | Chestal | fo rme lag is also more of an issue, but I think most people thinkotherwise |
| 19:16.55 | MrApathyCream | i think cheating is way overblown |
| 19:17.08 | Chestal | try and start a boll on bzflag centrum abou tit |
| 19:17.09 | Chestal | :-) |
| 19:17.13 | Chestal | s/boll/poll/ |
| 19:17.19 | learner | lag affects everyone all the time -- and is the cause of half the cheating complaints |
| 19:18.18 | learner | cheating is a 1% of the community problem that only occasionally rears it's head -- and I think the voting system will address it "well enough" for all but the most extreme/new cases of cheating |
| 19:18.29 | MrApathyCream | i put in dropping out of order packets :) |
| 19:18.39 | MrApathyCream | yup |
| 19:18.47 | Chestal | well, wheterh the votign system works is unnown yet, I mean whetehr it works socially |
| 19:18.54 | Chestal | MAC: ah, granted |
| 19:19.02 | MrApathyCream | i also put in bzdb-able dead reckoning limits |
| 19:19.08 | learner | true, which is a good reason to release :) |
| 19:19.22 | Chestal | MAC: hmm, well, that one does not really count .-) |
| 19:19.24 | MrApathyCream | voting is way more than enough to handle cheaters imo |
| 19:19.36 | Chestal | there are fears that it could be abused |
| 19:19.40 | Chestal | ha sit been tested, btw.? |
| 19:19.49 | Chestal | I never really tried it |
| 19:19.52 | MrApathyCream | well it works, i don't know if it fails |
| 19:19.55 | Chestal | is it easy enough to use? |
| 19:20.08 | learner | Chestal: yes, it has been tested |
| 19:20.09 | MrApathyCream | simple |
| 19:20.19 | learner | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:20.23 | learner | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:20.28 | Chestal | most peopel do not even know about /idlestats etc. |
| 19:20.37 | tapo | whats that? |
| 19:20.43 | MrApathyCream | they'll learn if it's about banning cheaters |
| 19:20.52 | Chestal | I guess those comamnds are only documented in the man page, noone reads that |
| 19:21.01 | learner | it's only useable by people who /register and /identify first anyways -- so they'll have some inclination |
| 19:21.13 | Chestal | ah, hmm |
| 19:21.15 | MrApathyCream | karma would have the same problem |
| 19:21.40 | learner | and very true.. I think people will learn very quick when they learn it will remove a cheater |
| 19:21.43 | Chestal | MAC: that does not apply to karma because there is no clear plan on how it would look :-) |
| 19:21.49 | MrApathyCream | heh |
| 19:21.54 | Chestal | most peopel do not register nowadays |
| 19:22.10 | learner | Chestal: and eventually, the system could/should be tied into the gui |
| 19:22.16 | Chestal | that system needs some work of its own, btw. |
| 19:22.20 | learner | of course not -- there's no reason to register |
| 19:22.27 | MrApathyCream | right |
| 19:22.34 | Chestal | you can protect your callsign |
| 19:22.42 | learner | but it's not a problem |
| 19:22.45 | Chestal | there#s the issue of synchronizing |
| 19:23.13 | Chestal | when registration becomes more popular I fear it will become an admin nightmare for the server owners |
| 19:23.16 | learner | and it still doesn't prevent someone from connecting with my callsign -- it just lets me fix the problem when it happens |
| 19:23.24 | Chestal | it's ok as an ad-hoc solution, but nothing more |
| 19:23.37 | learner | if I'm around, that is |
| 19:24.34 | learner | Now that two networking goons are within earshot... how can I get a ping packet back from the server within the client prior to entering the game? |
| 19:25.00 | Chestal | I have no clue about that |
| 19:25.12 | learner | I send a send(MsgPingCodeRequest, 0, NULL); |
| 19:25.19 | Chestal | wasn't there a change to ping handling to be abelto find local servers withotu multicast? |
| 19:25.20 | learner | but I don't get a MsgPingCodeReply back |
| 19:25.39 | Chestal | how do you send it? over which channel? |
| 19:25.49 | learner | serverLink |
| 19:26.10 | Chestal | as I said, I am not familiar with that, but I think pings are sent via UDP only |
| 19:26.27 | learner | in the menu, they appear to be udp only (to generate the server list) |
| 19:26.30 | Chestal | you clearly cannot send them over the TCP channel |
| 19:26.51 | Chestal | I see you are using that to make the client choose a team |
| 19:26.55 | Chestal | is that for 1.7 or 1.9? |
| 19:27.02 | learner | yes.. |
| 19:27.06 | learner | for 1.9 |
| 19:27.14 | Chestal | wouldn't it be better to let the server choose? |
| 19:27.16 | learner | I need team slots and player counts |
| 19:27.27 | learner | I wanted both -- server and client |
| 19:27.36 | Chestal | hmm |
| 19:27.44 | learner | that way it can be a server configureable option |
| 19:28.13 | Chestal | actualy, I wanted to work on this myself some weeks ago |
| 19:28.16 | learner | Right now, I'm just trying to get the client to do what I do -- look at the player counts and join the weakest team |
| 19:28.18 | MrApathyCream | imo, these are my priorities |
| 19:28.19 | MrApathyCream | 1) Improve network performance |
| 19:28.20 | MrApathyCream | 2) Beautify the game, --> it's 2003 |
| 19:28.20 | MrApathyCream | 3) factor the code, so that |
| 19:28.20 | MrApathyCream | 4) more game styles, challenges easily added |
| 19:28.20 | Chestal | I was goign for an 'Auto' team settign in the client |
| 19:28.41 | Chestal | MAC: I hope we can discuss these thigns on the ml |
| 19:28.44 | learner | Chestal: I have that :) |
| 19:28.52 | MrApathyCream | Chestal, i hope so too |
| 19:28.53 | Chestal | MAC: the discussions here suffer from fragmentation |
| 19:29.07 | MrApathyCream | yup |
| 19:29.13 | learner | I can randomly pick a team -- but I wanted to pick the weakest, hence the team/player info |
| 19:29.18 | Chestal | learner: well, and server might have two settings: honor client team or force team on client |
| 19:29.27 | Chestal | learner: it both cases the client would not have to choose |
| 19:29.31 | MrApathyCream | karma is priority 52, i think, on my list last i checked |
| 19:29.48 | learner | Chestal: well, the client can do it's trick without touching protocol |
| 19:29.53 | Chestal | learner: of course this would mean that we'd have to add a pseudo-team 'Auto' or modify the join message in another way |
| 19:30.06 | Chestal | learner: well, now is the right time to break protocol :-) |
| 19:30.16 | MrApathyCream | Now if it would get tim coding seriously again, i would help out, but i still think it's silly |
| 19:31.23 | learner | consider this, if the server supports auto-teaming, Automatic would let the server set the player's team and/or swap him around during the game. IF it doesn't, then the player would have the luxury to make the decision |
| 19:31.58 | learner | It's not necessary to tie the latter decision to the server, so why? |
| 19:32.21 | learner | besides.. I just need that little piece of information .. :( |
| 19:32.28 | learner | it works nice |
| 19:33.03 | Chestal | but there doesn't seem to be a clean way to retrieve this information yet |
| 19:33.12 | Chestal | usign the ping message seems to be messy to me |
| 19:33.43 | learner | how so? |
| 19:33.53 | learner | that's exactly what the ping request tells you |
| 19:34.44 | MrApathyCream | bbl |
| 19:35.04 | learner | horsies? |
| 19:35.33 | MrApathyCream | wifeepoo |
| 19:35.37 | learner | ah :) |
| 19:35.45 | MrApathyCream | well, and horsies |
| 19:36.47 | MrApathyCream | why don't you just send tcp? look at MsgSendWHash for instance |
| 19:36.48 | Chestal | well, don't you need that information whiel you're still in the process of joining? |
| 19:36.58 | MrApathyCream | it's is optional |
| 19:37.12 | Chestal | durign that time, you cannot even communicate with the server the normal way AFAIK |
| 19:37.35 | learner | SendWHash? |
| 19:37.44 | MrApathyCream | world hash |
| 19:38.41 | learner | OOOoh.. MsgQueryPlayers =) |
| 19:39.22 | Chestal | learner: IIRC after you connected to the server, the sevrer sends you a subset of all possible message types to trasnbefr server state to you |
| 19:39.38 | Chestal | learner: I am not sure that you can freely communicate with it durign that time |
| 19:39.43 | *** part/#bzflag tapo (~tjabo@p50928C1F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:39.57 | Chestal | (in case you are doing it at this stage) |
| 19:41.21 | learner | I'm in joinGame() after the radar is made and the control panel is set |
| 19:41.36 | Chestal | ok, have to go, cu |
| 19:41.42 | learner | right before enterServer() call |
| 19:41.46 | learner | aua |
| 19:41.50 | Chestal | cannot really help you with that anyway I fear |
| 19:41.52 | Chestal | good luck :-) |
| 19:42.03 | learner | ;) thanks anyways |
| 19:46.05 | CIA | 03timriker * 12bzflag/ (33 files in 13 dirs): ws |
| 19:47.15 | MrApathyCream | ! |
| 19:49.01 | learner | where is the Player class?? |
| 19:49.06 | MrApathyCream | bzflag |
| 19:49.15 | MrApathyCream | (12 minute reprieve) |
| 19:49.53 | learner | aha! I found it.. I _already_ have all the information I need -- not need to talk to server |
| 19:50.03 | learner | I have the player array by that point |
| 19:50.48 | MrApathyCream | coo |
| 19:51.58 | learner | i think.. |
| 19:56.12 | learner | what's a better approach -- join team with least cumulative player points or join team with least team score? |
| 19:56.24 | learner | I'm thinking the prior.. |
| 19:57.06 | *** join/#bzflag Legolas (~topgunp38@adsl-68-78-98-163.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net) |
| 20:00.13 | learner | howdy legs |
| 20:03.37 | learner | damn.. playing.cxx takes TOO LONG to compile |
| 20:04.02 | learner | I bet it's another 10000 line beast like bzfs was.. |
| 20:04.12 | learner | yep.. 7000! |
| 20:04.21 | *** join/#bzflag doughecka (~~joe@adsl-68-133.lou.bluegrass.net) |
| 20:04.28 | learner | ~fishslap whoever does/did that |
| 20:04.31 | | ACTION slaps whoever does/did that up side the head with a wet fish. |
| 20:04.59 | [dmp] | A waste of good fish :) |
| 20:05.49 | *** join/#bzflag nikt (nikt@ui31.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 20:06.21 | *** join/#bzflag Legolas (~topgunp38@adsl-68-78-98-163.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net) |
| 20:08.41 | *** join/#bzflag doughecka (~~joe@adsl-68-133.lou.bluegrass.net) |
| 20:17.47 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@ppp-62-11-19-68.dialup.tiscali.it) |
| 20:36.22 | david_v | does anyone here know what to do about random lockups in BZflag, in observer mode? |
| 20:36.44 | david_v | it never happens during gameplay... well, i don't remember that if it happened anyway |
| 20:36.51 | david_v | but it very often does in observer mode |
| 20:36.57 | *** join/#bzflag Patlabor221 (~JeffM@208.48.199.202) |
| 20:36.58 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o Patlabor221] by ChanServ |
| 20:37.33 | Tupone | 1.7 or 1.9 |
| 20:41.50 | *** join/#bzflag triclops (~triclops@203-219-160-62-nsw.tpgi.com.au) |
| 21:04.02 | *** join/#bzflag mmu_man (~revol@ALyon-209-1-36-2.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 21:34.13 | *** join/#bzflag |tim| (~|tim|@ip68-106-184-191.sb.sd.cox.net) |
| 21:43.35 | *** join/#bzflag dave (~david_v@c213-200-135-241.cm-upc.chello.se) |
| 21:54.43 | *** join/#bzflag chatelaine (~aec@208.48.199.215) |
| 21:55.24 | *** join/#bzflag bzgirl (~orchid@toronto-hs-64-26-176-100.s-ip.magma.ca) |
| 21:56.18 | Tupone | bzgirl: changed the leaving message. Are you scaring man? |
| 21:57.48 | bzgirl | Tupone: not scared, no :) |
| 21:58.16 | Tupone | I preferred the Italian one :) |
| 21:58.55 | bzgirl | i will fix it for you :) |
| 21:59.26 | Tupone | but also I prefer the changes, so another should be good! |
| 22:00.17 | bzgirl | well its supposed to be random, but it didnt seem to work until today |
| 22:02.21 | *** join/#bzflag chatelaine (~aec@208.48.199.215) |
| 22:04.52 | Legolas | ~d |
| 22:06.03 | Legolas | ~ibot snack |
| 22:06.04 | | Cross-platform sound extension for Tcl. URL: http://www.speech.kth.se/snack/ |
| 22:17.33 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (bryjen@ky-owensboro1a-242.owboky.adelphia.net) |
| 22:22.27 | learner | ack, MAC |
| 22:23.06 | Tupone | MAC has gone! |
| 22:31.15 | captain_proton | right now |
| 22:31.32 | learner | where were you 5 hours ago :P |
| 22:31.49 | captain_proton | asleep |
| 22:33.22 | learner | bzg's getting rather creative :) |
| 22:34.30 | Tupone | learner: How could I vote in the poll? |
| 22:34.43 | learner | well, you can't until I post it :) |
| 22:34.53 | learner | still adding options |
| 22:36.14 | *** join/#bzflag Patlabor221 (~jeffm@adsl-64-172-196-92.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 22:36.14 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o Patlabor221] by ChanServ |
| 22:37.45 | learner | http://bzbb.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?t=1139 |
| 22:38.40 | learner | ugg.. bzbb bug |
| 22:40.17 | captain_proton | erg |
| 22:40.27 | learner | http://bzbb.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?t=1140 |
| 22:40.38 | captain_proton | there's invariably someone there named 'perfectcell' |
| 22:40.45 | learner | lol |
| 22:41.00 | learner | okay.. everyone please vote :) |
| 22:43.34 | *** topic/#bzflag by learner -> http://BZFlag.org/ || http://list.BZFlag.org/ || http://stats.BZFlag.org/ || forums http://bzbb.bzflag.org || beta builds http://bzflag.dragon.org/builds || http://students.cs.byu.edu/~cs470ta/labs || ban exceptions /mode #BZFlag +e nick!*user@*.dip.t-dialin.net | when to release 1.10? http://bzbb.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?t=1140 |
| 22:43.37 | Patlabor221 | huh? |
| 22:43.49 | learner | lookie |
| 22:44.25 | learner | development planning forum |
| 22:44.40 | learner | need to delete the first entry.. |
| 22:44.58 | Patlabor221 | the first vote? |
| 22:45.02 | learner | did you know that if you edit your post, and change the title, that you loose the poll :) |
| 22:45.10 | learner | no, the first post |
| 22:45.23 | Patlabor221 | there only is one post |
| 22:45.24 | learner | this one: http://bzbb.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?t=1139 |
| 22:45.34 | Patlabor221 | oh |
| 22:45.38 | Patlabor221 | done |
| 22:46.45 | Patlabor221 | I see london I see france I see all your Internet Protocol Addresses :) |
| 22:46.53 | Tupone | Patlabor221: can you activate my account? |
| 22:47.04 | Patlabor221 | yes |
| 22:47.18 | Tupone | _Tupone_ |
| 22:47.19 | Patlabor221 | activated! |
| 22:47.29 | Patlabor221 | isn't it just Tupone? |
| 22:47.35 | Patlabor221 | don't like _ in names |
| 22:47.35 | Tupone | thanx |
| 22:47.42 | Tupone | just Tupone |
| 22:48.08 | Patlabor221 | ahh good, cus the _name_ falls into the "lame ass nick" clause |
| 22:49.21 | learner | yep, pat.. that's dangerous.. I can't edit my message without losing the poll association -- at least not the title |
| 22:49.26 | Tupone | I like this one => "After the whole thing is rewritten from scratch" |
| 22:49.32 | Patlabor221 | sad that I have to do admin activations, but it's basicly shut down KM |
| 22:49.49 | Patlabor221 | learner I think it links the poll to the title, it's not often that you edit a title |
| 22:50.05 | Patlabor221 | no, I don't think 1.10 is a target for a rewrite |
| 22:50.11 | Patlabor221 | I voted for #2 |
| 22:50.14 | learner | ah, so I could have probably edited it back and reassociated |
| 22:50.25 | Patlabor221 | rewrite would take too long |
| 22:50.34 | learner | :) |
| 22:50.45 | learner | of course *cough* |
| 22:50.50 | Patlabor221 | learner is right, something shoudl be released soon, but I am not a fan of the "just ship it" mentality |
| 22:50.58 | Patlabor221 | there are bugs and unknown quantitys |
| 22:51.16 | Patlabor221 | like the render state issues when you alt+tab out. I can't find them, and that bugs me |
| 22:51.20 | Tupone | I would it have been a middle choice (1 week) |
| 22:51.25 | learner | bugs we don't have no stinkin' bugs |
| 22:51.54 | Patlabor221 | really? then why can't I see the ground after I get an IM? |
| 22:51.54 | learner | I considered a 1 week choice, but figured I could group all the "more testing needed" people by saying two weeks |
| 22:52.19 | learner | sounds like a personal problem :) |
| 22:52.27 | Patlabor221 | perhaps, but g2 works fine |
| 22:52.37 | Patlabor221 | something is jacking the state |
| 22:53.02 | learner | what's IM? |
| 22:53.04 | Patlabor221 | also there are shot z buffer issues it seems in burrow mode |
| 22:53.07 | Patlabor221 | Instant Message |
| 22:53.17 | Patlabor221 | if something tabs in, BZ minimises |
| 22:53.28 | Patlabor221 | when I come back, we no longer clear the buffer |
| 22:53.37 | learner | wow |
| 22:53.46 | Patlabor221 | other people have the issue |
| 22:53.52 | Patlabor221 | it's been on BZBB |
| 22:53.58 | learner | where's mac when these "platform of choice" discussions go awry |
| 22:54.01 | Patlabor221 | I can't find out what the deal is |
| 22:54.17 | Patlabor221 | well it's gotta be app code, cus G2 and older 1.9's work fine |
| 22:54.17 | learner | silly winderz |
| 22:54.23 | Tupone | Similar problem on Linux. If you got a popup window, you loose functionality |
| 22:54.25 | learner | true |
| 22:54.39 | Patlabor221 | something is not being reset on an activate |
| 22:54.39 | learner | I wouldn't know since my client can't/won't minimize :) |
| 22:54.42 | Patlabor221 | I think it's in app code |
| 22:55.03 | Patlabor221 | but I can't follow the current state saving stuff |
| 22:55.08 | Patlabor221 | it's kerwhaky |
| 22:55.56 | Patlabor221 | well it is |
| 22:56.13 | Patlabor221 | made sense for software rendering, dosn't make much sense now for hardware |
| 22:56.30 | Patlabor221 | there is more logic in that secion then there is in the scene graph :) |
| 22:56.56 | learner | yet it still remains illogical |
| 22:57.02 | Patlabor221 | yes |
| 22:57.15 | Patlabor221 | didn't say it was good logic, just more of it |
| 22:57.40 | Tupone | I made a fix, on the redraw event. It worked for me, but was a disaster for Chestal so he removed that |
| 22:58.05 | Patlabor221 | yay, my state is on fire now |
| 22:58.46 | learner | shoot.. I suddenly realize that I haven't eaten today and that I'm hungry |
| 23:02.52 | learner | when I lived in the city, I could order just about anything on-line.. now it the middle of bumblefcuk I can barely get pizza |
| 23:03.38 | Patlabor221 | move out here, smells like BBQ outside |
| 23:10.48 | *** join/#bzflag Noodleman (~tuckerm@adsl-66-72-31-79.dsl.kntpin.ameritech.net) |
| 23:20.57 | *** part/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@ppp-62-11-19-68.dialup.tiscali.it) |
| 23:23.10 | JBDiGriz | ~weather ksan |
| 23:23.54 | JBDiGriz | We're still getting the wind from the ocean, so it's not going to go completely up in flames for a while. |
| 23:26.49 | Patlabor221 | it's raining ash here |
| 23:28.10 | JBDiGriz | Is the fire around Ojai? |
| 23:28.17 | Patlabor221 | what one? there are 2 |
| 23:28.29 | Patlabor221 | one up there, and another over by san bernidino |
| 23:29.04 | JBDiGriz | The one by SB shouldn't be raining ash on you. |
| 23:29.11 | Patlabor221 | no it's not |
| 23:29.16 | Patlabor221 | but I can see the smoke from it |
| 23:37.53 | Quol | halo |
| 23:38.28 | Patlabor221 | mmmm halo...... SPNKRs :) |
| 23:39.17 | Quol | lol |
| 23:39.26 | Quol | how R ya pat and jb? |
| 23:39.53 | Patlabor221 | on fire |
| 23:40.18 | JBDiGriz | almost literally |
| 23:40.20 | Patlabor221 | how large is it? |
| 23:40.39 | Patlabor221 | how many square miles will it put out? |
| 23:40.42 | Noodleman | no problem now :-) |
| 23:42.24 | learner | BOO! |
| 23:42.32 | Quol | AHHHHHHHHHHh |
| 23:42.43 | Quol | don't do that to my heart learner :) |
| 23:44.23 | Quol | brb.. |
| 23:46.18 | *** join/#bzflag doughecka (~~joe@adsl-68-133.lou.bluegrass.net) |
| 23:46.26 | learner | doug: go vote |
| 23:48.05 | Patlabor221 | what is the vote gonna do? Tim does not read those boards |
| 23:48.15 | learner | wee heee... pizzzzzzaaaaa |
| 23:48.26 | doughecka | vote? |
| 23:49.17 | learner | well.. during the argument, there was one for waiting, one for testing, one for now.. after he left not one was in favor of what he wanted |
| 23:49.27 | learner | I want to at least be able to point that out |
| 23:49.40 | learner | doug: topic re when to release |
| 23:50.40 | doughecka | hmm |
| 23:50.57 | Patlabor221 | I don't see anyone cept tim wanting to wait for karma |
| 23:51.20 | captain_proton | his argument was that upgrading was too much of a burden? :P |
| 23:51.32 | Patlabor221 | and you can't ask users, as it's been a word that has been dangled in front of them as some great holy grail of anti-cheat |
| 23:51.48 | doughecka | lol |
| 23:51.57 | Patlabor221 | considering what is the default behavor if you have REALLY bad karma? |
| 23:52.15 | captain_proton | i think that elevated team bases, throttling, superjump, etc are all good examples of what happens when you give the users a choice not to upgrade :P |
| 23:52.26 | JBDiGriz | I have found more users playing on learner's server lately. The macosxunleashed site is also running 1.9 occasionally. |
| 23:53.33 | learner | yes, my server is pretty active over the past couple weeks |
| 23:53.38 | scanline | would make it a lot easier to remove bugs before they get exploited by cheaters and mapmakers if you make all versions break compatibility, and have the list server only publicly list servers running the latest version :) |
| 23:54.07 | scanline | but.. that would be too much like quake |
| 23:54.14 | scanline | and nobody plays quake because it's too hard to upgrade |
| 23:54.41 | doughecka | yea, its annoying when I run the game and it wants me to update, AGAIN... |
| 23:56.45 | *** join/#bzflag Patlabor221 (~jeffm@adsl-64-172-196-92.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) |
| 23:56.45 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o Patlabor221] by ChanServ |
| 23:56.56 | learner | so you people need to speak up when the fleeting tim is around :) |
| 23:57.38 | Patlabor221 | that boy need office hours |