| 00:00:09 | iLLf8d | you guys have been talking about combining messaging better and sending a smaller number of messages |
| 00:00:22 | Chestal | well, only some of the lag can be reduced |
| 00:00:24 | jacques | that would reduce required bandwitdth |
| 00:00:29 | Chestal | we can try to lower the amoutn of data sent |
| 00:00:39 | jacques | by lowering overhead |
| 00:00:39 | iLLf8d | is the lag the issue or the way its setup now... |
| 00:00:48 | Chestal | there is latency in the network even withotu traffic, we cannot do anythign about that |
| 00:01:13 | iLLf8d | lemme as a different question then how much ground does a tank cover in say 100ms? |
| 00:01:22 | Chestal | ill: basically there's these issues: 1) lag can be reduced by reducing amount of data sent |
| 00:01:23 | iLLf8d | does it move a tank length? |
| 00:01:49 | Chestal | 2) the observable effect of lag depends on several factors, e.g. on who is doing the collision detection |
| 00:01:49 | jacques | i bet it's close |
| 00:02:03 | jacques | think about how far you can move in a second |
| 00:02:04 | Chestal | 3) we can't eliminate lag, we will always have to live with lags aroudn 100ms |
| 00:02:11 | iLLf8d | what about cheating it? |
| 00:02:28 | iLLf8d | uhm scale view and tanks larger then collision |
| 00:02:44 | iLLf8d | then swtich to server side collision |
| 00:02:45 | Chestal | withotu high speed flag a tank moves 25m/s |
| 00:02:52 | Chestal | a tank is 6m long |
| 00:03:09 | Chestal | so in 100ms 2.5m, about half a tanj length |
| 00:03:15 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 00:03:25 | jacques | so in 700ms... |
| 00:03:30 | iLLf8d | and is the killzone the enitre tank or is it smaller? |
| 00:03:35 | Chestal | so, 100ms is noticeable, but quite ok |
| 00:03:56 | jacques | slightly larger i would think |
| 00:04:02 | Chestal | killzone is 0.72*Tanklength |
| 00:04:09 | jacques | wow really? |
| 00:04:14 | Chestal | it's just a radius |
| 00:04:23 | jacques | ah to account for smaller width |
| 00:04:27 | Chestal | so you can probably shoot through the muzzle |
| 00:04:39 | iLLf8d | what about changing the rounds a bit to fake it |
| 00:04:45 | jacques | well how is it done with narrow then? |
| 00:04:53 | iLLf8d | use explosive tipped rounds so near hits can take you out |
| 00:04:56 | jacques | cant use a radius for that |
| 00:05:00 | Chestal | narrow is handled differently |
| 00:05:11 | iLLf8d | this way when it appears as if its a miss you can make killzone larger and not hear bitches |
| 00:05:25 | jacques | special case, eh? |
| 00:05:28 | iLLf8d | just add a bit of lightshows heh |
| 00:05:43 | Chestal | I vote against enlargidn the kill radius |
| 00:05:57 | Chestal | the current values are fine |
| 00:06:10 | iLLf8d | I don't mind gameplay much as it is |
| 00:06:19 | Chestal | changign the hit detectin to use the real tank shape could be a good idea |
| 00:06:29 | captain_proton | well |
| 00:06:37 | jacques | two biggest issues for meare lag and cheating |
| 00:06:44 | captain_proton | hopefully with crs' new collision code kills will be done with the shape of the tank |
| 00:07:02 | Chestal | jacques: yep, lag is biggest issue for me, I am rarely confronted with cheating (at least with cheatign I notice :-) |
| 00:07:17 | iLLf8d | perhaps a better lagstat would help (cause I've noticed up to 500ms lag can be fine on some fields and that same lag is horrendous on others) dunno if its not acurate or something else |
| 00:07:21 | Chestal | captain: a simple rectuangular boundding slab would probably suffice |
| 00:07:39 | jacques | iLLf8d: I've noticed that too |
| 00:07:53 | iLLf8d | Chestal: things like flying tanks and multiple special weapons at once kinda give it away heh |
| 00:07:55 | Chestal | ill: current lagmeter was a quick hack, it is the wy it is, because it was the only way to get this data withotu having to enforce clien tupdated |
| 00:08:38 | Chestal | ill: yes, but I ecoutered exactly 1 cheater in 6 weeks and he was on chardonnay |
| 00:09:04 | iLLf8d | I see them much more frequently |
| 00:09:10 | Chestal | a player might have hgue jitter, i.e. a greatly varying latency. Curent lagstats won't cover this |
| 00:09:12 | iLLf8d | lately its been that numbered tank |
| 00:09:16 | jacques | ive seen so many tiny superspeeders - though theycould all be same guy - keeps changing nick |
| 00:09:16 | iLLf8d | always like 124821349081 |
| 00:09:21 | captain_proton | i see cheaters on chardonnay every time I go there |
| 00:09:21 | iLLf8d | or some variant |
| 00:09:22 | Chestal | ill: this was the one I saw |
| 00:09:33 | Chestal | most servers are badly administrated |
| 00:09:40 | Chestal | either no aadmin or helper admins around |
| 00:09:48 | Chestal | or admins accept cheating / ill behaviour |
| 00:09:54 | iLLf8d | yeah |
| 00:10:12 | iLLf8d | maybe it'd be nice to have official servers when the new version comes out |
| 00:10:14 | Chestal | even 1.8 won't help with the latter |
| 00:10:29 | iLLf8d | official as in cheaterfree (or at least some kinda admin setup) |
| 00:10:31 | captain_proton | has strict rules and many helpers |
| 00:10:34 | Chestal | well, the karma system should help with this |
| 00:10:58 | Chestal | there will be open servers with possible cheaters, too. But you can avoid them of course |
| 00:11:00 | iLLf8d | cap your field is quite good in that sense |
| 00:11:07 | iLLf8d | if people are cheating I can't tell |
| 00:11:34 | iLLf8d | I play your field often and usually theres only one or 2 guys and its almost always that 28342134 tank |
| 00:11:35 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 00:11:51 | captain_proton | iLLf8d: if you see him on my server do a permban |
| 00:12:05 | iLLf8d | well.... |
| 00:12:12 | iLLf8d | I kinda suspect its someone really young |
| 00:12:14 | iLLf8d | they really suck |
| 00:12:24 | iLLf8d | its probably some kids little brother |
| 00:12:28 | iLLf8d | and I don't have the heart to do it |
| 00:12:33 | captain_proton | fine |
| 00:12:36 | captain_proton | when they're there |
| 00:12:39 | captain_proton | come tell me ;) |
| 00:12:41 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 00:12:55 | iLLf8d | maybe you should have a kid mode |
| 00:13:08 | iLLf8d | should be easy enough to change a kill zone var or something |
| 00:13:13 | iLLf8d | maybe have the tank color change |
| 00:13:25 | Chestal | hmm, an idea: should servers also have karma? so you coudl rate servers as well, coudl show up in the server list |
| 00:13:28 | jacques | when we have a way to keep laggers out, decks will be the perfect srever :-) |
| 00:13:53 | Chestal | decks has jumping, hasn't it? so it can't be perfect :-) |
| 00:13:58 | iLLf8d | chestal how about an average lag time in the list |
| 00:14:04 | iLLf8d | that would do it |
| 00:14:05 | captain_proton | Chestal: thats an interesting concept |
| 00:14:06 | captain_proton | oh hush |
| 00:14:08 | captain_proton | yeah |
| 00:14:13 | iLLf8d | and perhaps a popularity stat |
| 00:14:23 | captain_proton | have a method to sort the list either by # of players or average ping |
| 00:14:27 | iLLf8d | if its popular and shows low lag.... |
| 00:14:30 | Chestal | hmm, client coudl do pings to servers in the server list |
| 00:14:38 | iLLf8d | if lags high and its popular you know its a cheaters server |
| 00:14:39 | Chestal | so we woudl have a crude lag estimate before joining |
| 00:14:52 | captain_proton | Chestal: good idea |
| 00:15:21 | Chestal | let's face it, we need the new net code |
| 00:16:21 | iLLf8d | how tough would it be to add levels? like beginner intermediate advanced? switch killzone size |
| 00:17:20 | Chestal | hmm, tank size could be a server parameter |
| 00:17:21 | scanline | is away: mashed potatoes, tobasco sauce, and rice... or another great Dorm Food Combo |
| 00:17:44 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 00:17:56 | iLLf8d | sounds like a raemen pride night |
| 00:18:02 | iLLf8d | or whatever its called |
| 00:18:13 | iLLf8d | the foamy noodles heh |
| 00:22:57 | jacques | is hungry. |
| 00:23:29 | jacques | yeah I have to manually ping the servers |
| 00:23:38 | jacques | in serverlist would be very nice |
| 00:24:25 | jacques | ooooh |
| 00:24:28 | jacques | how about this: |
| 00:24:46 | jacques | each player's lag shows up in sall numbers on their tank |
| 00:24:47 | jacques | :-) |
| 00:24:56 | jacques | then I would know how much lag compensation to use :-D |
| 00:25:54 | jacques | the laggier they are, the bigger they are :-D |
| 00:33:51 | Chestal | I'll put myself into bed |
| 00:35:11 | jacques | Chestal: later! |
| 00:47:37 | scanline | is back (gone 00:30:15) |
| 00:50:26 | scanline | is away: gone to digital lab for a few hours |
| 02:11:28 | | new is whatever's not old |
| 02:11:28 | BZFlag | what's new? |
| 02:11:33 | BZFlag | heh |
| 02:11:47 | captain_proton | haha |
| 02:12:21 | jacques | heh |
| 02:29:04 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 07:53:41) |
| 02:40:48 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: you vampire |
| 02:47:37 | jacques | ivant to drink your blaaaad |
| 03:03:26 | SpaceGhost | Why is it that I get disconnected from a server, and then when I reconnect under a different name, my first me is still there? |
| 03:03:44 | captain_proton | dunno |
| 03:03:49 | captain_proton | been happening on my server recently |
| 03:03:55 | SpaceGhost | yes you do |
| 03:03:58 | SpaceGhost | You kick me off! |
| 03:04:19 | SpaceGhost | Me and tankenstein |
| 03:04:28 | captain_proton | nuh-uh |
| 03:04:37 | captain_proton | i kick the clones when i see it |
| 03:04:57 | SpaceGhost | I don't get it. It never happened before today. |
| 03:06:13 | | spaceghost: wish i knew |
| 03:06:13 | SpaceGhost | ibot, why does captain_proton ban me from his server? |
| 03:06:29 | captain_proton | bah |
| 03:06:54 | SpaceGhost | I was actually hoping to get some kind of opinion on this connection problem. |
| 03:07:16 | captain_proton | my opinion is that its annoying |
| 03:07:19 | SpaceGhost | Who does the networking stuff in bzflag? |
| 03:07:23 | jacques | is there a different msg when an admin kicks you? |
| 03:07:37 | jacques | i have gotten disconnected a couple times and did not know if it was by an admin |
| 03:07:40 | jacques | (not on decks tho) |
| 03:07:43 | SpaceGhost | Yes, I don't get kicked, everybody goes non-responsive. |
| 03:07:54 | jacques | ooh I get that a lot on some servres |
| 03:08:00 | jacques | like digitaleclipse |
| 03:08:06 | SpaceGhost | But then when I reconnect, my old me is still there |
| 03:08:14 | captain_proton | it tells you when you get kicked |
| 03:08:19 | captain_proton | you have been kicked by %s |
| 03:08:58 | jacques | ah cool |
| 03:09:08 | SpaceGhost | jacques: You've never been kicked? |
| 03:09:23 | jacques | once now that i think o fit - I had the GM and was paused |
| 03:09:31 | jacques | because there was nobody else there at the time |
| 03:09:39 | jacques | came back and had been kicked |
| 03:09:56 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: You've been kicked? |
| 03:10:01 | captain_proton | SpaceGhost: no |
| 03:10:11 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: then how did you know what it said? |
| 03:10:22 | captain_proton | SpaceGhost: i hack at bz, remember? |
| 03:10:46 | SpaceGhost | hrmm. |
| 03:12:07 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: So, what are you going to hack to fix my problem? |
| 03:12:21 | captain_proton | SpaceGhost: your ethernet cable |
| 03:12:42 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: Why don't you just cut off my man organ while you're at it? |
| 03:12:50 | captain_proton | gets out the butter knife |
| 03:13:18 | SpaceGhost | Butter knife? You underestimate me! I'm a superhero! |
| 03:13:44 | captain_proton | hmmm |
| 03:13:48 | captain_proton | ... do i want to go this far? |
| 03:13:59 | captain_proton | gets out the tweezers as well |
| 03:18:24 | iLLf8d | SpaceGhost: I have the same problems |
| 03:18:25 | iLLf8d | dude |
| 03:18:39 | iLLf8d | when you go nonresponsive change your nick a bit and you can reconnect |
| 03:23:32 | SpaceGhost | You'll need a steak knife for that kind of job! |
| 03:23:32 | SpaceGhost | Where's your hacker mystique? Where's your sense of adventure through networking land? |
| 03:23:36 | SpaceGhost | Where's captian_proton? |
| 03:24:43 | SpaceGhost | Where's captian_proton? |
| 03:25:19 | BZFlag | SpaceGhost: yes, there is an admin msg before a kick. |
| 03:26:00 | SpaceGhost | iLLf8d: I know I can reconnect with a different nick, but I think this is a bug that should be fixed |
| 03:28:15 | BZFlag | ok, so tell my why it happens, and I'll fix it. |
| 03:28:37 | BZFlag | chances are there will be different net bugs with 1.8 as so much is changing. |
| 03:28:40 | SpaceGhost | BZFlag: I don't know. It never happened to me before today. It used to happen to tankenstein for a while. |
| 03:28:57 | captain_proton | BZFlag: this is with 1.7 |
| 03:29:17 | BZFlag | there is no more server reconnect. client now uses one tcp and one udp connection both on the same port #. the server also only using one tcp and one udp port. |
| 03:29:31 | SpaceGhost | BZFlag: Maybe someone is dicking the server into doing this? I was probably making a cheater mad yesterday. |
| 03:29:33 | BZFlag | the same tcp port has connections to all players and bots. |
| 03:30:29 | SpaceGhost | BZFlag: It just seems too convenient that it only happens to one person at a time. |
| 03:30:58 | BZFlag | perhaps. in 1.7 I think you could send a quit message for another player if you wanted. |
| 03:31:12 | captain_proton | BZFlag: that would remove the player from the player list |
| 03:31:18 | BZFlag | ah, true. |
| 03:31:21 | BZFlag | hmm... |
| 03:31:29 | captain_proton | woooo! |
| 03:31:34 | captain_proton | i get lab space tomorrow! |
| 03:31:47 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: They've always needed a place to put your cage. |
| 03:31:54 | captain_proton | ha |
| 03:31:56 | BZFlag | I wonder if you can update a players udp port to somplace else in 1.7 |
| 03:32:04 | BZFlag | won't work in 1.8 though. |
| 03:32:13 | SpaceGhost | 1.8 server you mean? |
| 03:32:15 | captain_proton | me and two friends are getting a (fairly large) lab with all the electronics equipment we need |
| 03:32:46 | BZFlag | SpaceGhost: yeah. 1.8 has some changes in that area. more cheat protection is coming as well. |
| 03:33:13 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: Can you get an HP oscilloscope that plays tetris? |
| 03:33:21 | captain_proton | SpaceGhost: mebbe |
| 03:33:35 | captain_proton | we also get an unrestricted gigabit line ;) |
| 03:34:08 | BZFlag | awaits that faster server. ;-) |
| 03:34:39 | captain_proton | heh |
| 03:34:50 | captain_proton | the only other computer i have is a 486 |
| 03:35:01 | captain_proton | (which will be going in there because we need computers) |
| 03:35:21 | BZFlag | you've got a gigabit line and a 486? |
| 03:35:56 | captain_proton | heh |
| 03:37:10 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 03:37:37 | vogon_jeltz | is it the technological ghetto? or is it the most well-connected dorm room in existence? it's both! |
| 03:40:17 | captain_proton | not in a dorm room |
| 03:43:03 | vogon_jeltz | OK, whatever |
| 03:43:07 | vogon_jeltz | s/dorm// |
| 03:43:42 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: We had those in our ee labs. Tetris was an easter egg. |
| 03:43:42 | SpaceGhost | the good old days! |
| 03:43:42 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: You're running a 1.7 server? |
| 03:44:15 | captain_proton | SpaceGhost: uh, yeah |
| 03:51:00 | captain_proton | its cool...we |
| 03:51:10 | captain_proton | we're getting our own personal lab in the engineering center =) |
| 03:53:04 | SpaceGhost | BZFlag: tankenstein doesn't think the non responding thing is a cheat, but it may be possible. |
| 03:53:30 | vogon_jeltz | it is possible |
| 03:53:53 | vogon_jeltz | it just requires commenting out a function in ServerLink.cxx, IIRC |
| 03:54:03 | vogon_jeltz | could be PlayerLink.cxx, thos |
| 03:54:05 | vogon_jeltz | tho, even |
| 03:54:22 | vogon_jeltz | at the very least, we need to implement server-side checking of shot origins |
| 03:56:18 | BZFlag | PlayerLink is gone from 1.8 |
| 03:56:33 | BZFlag | was only used for multicast, which only LAN games used. |
| 03:56:38 | BZFlag | multicast is gone too. |
| 03:56:44 | vogon_jeltz | in which case it's ServerLink :) |
| 03:57:01 | BZFlag | LAN games use the same game mode in 1.8 |
| 03:58:59 | vogon_jeltz | here we go |
| 03:59:17 | vogon_jeltz | in Player::isDeadReckoningWrong(), comment everything out but "return false;" |
| 03:59:58 | vogon_jeltz | you go unresponsive when you join a game, but you can still drive around and shoot willy-nilly |
| 04:00:35 | captain_proton | BZFlag: i noticed that my bzflag server spams the hell out of the rest of my dorm ;) |
| 04:00:44 | vogon_jeltz | heheh |
| 04:02:49 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 04:02:59 | captain_proton | goes 'boo' |
| 04:03:02 | iLLf8d | yfn thinks theres a new notresponding cheat I think |
| 04:03:07 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 04:03:09 | | new is whatever's not old |
| 04:03:09 | captain_proton | new? |
| 04:03:14 | | Sorry, captain_proton, I'll keep my mouth shut. |
| 04:03:14 | captain_proton | ibot: shut up |
| 04:03:15 | iLLf8d | seems alot of people are having the same issues I have |
| 04:03:16 | iLLf8d | m |
| 04:03:21 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: Admit it, you've got a dual Athlon MP with a mixer board for all your MIDI fantasies. |
| 04:03:22 | iLLf8d | maybe its not my cable connection |
| 04:03:22 | captain_proton | iLLf8d: its not new ;) |
| 04:03:29 | captain_proton | SpaceGhost: uhm, no |
| 04:03:44 | iLLf8d | yeah I know your heads been not responding for a while now |
| 04:03:45 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 04:03:47 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 04:03:56 | captain_proton | SpaceGhost: i've got a single p4 1.7 with a soundcard that has only decent linux support |
| 04:03:58 | iLLf8d | I took your comment as sarcasm so.. |
| 04:05:49 | scanline | is back (gone 03:15:23) |
| 04:06:19 | scanline | is away: ZzZzZzZzzzzzzzz |
| 04:07:01 | captain_proton | wow early to bed |
| 04:13:17 | SpaceGhost | I was just thinking that this has to be the fault of the Scientologists! |
| 04:13:29 | captain_proton | obviously |
| 04:13:46 | SpaceGhost | Those guys ruin everything! |
| 04:14:33 | SpaceGhost | Actually, they bring up a very valid social concern. Should religions really be treated specially by the government? I think the answer is no. |
| 04:14:45 | vogon_jeltz | no, I firmly believe it's the fault of the Thetans... we can defeat them by [deleted by leagl order] |
| 04:14:48 | vogon_jeltz | legal, rather |
| 04:15:27 | SpaceGhost | What about those Hale-Bopp suicide guys? Maybe their ghosts are haunting proton's server. |
| 04:16:13 | SpaceGhost | cults are funny. |
| 04:17:40 | SpaceGhost | Everyone laugh at John Travolta! Ha ha! |
| 04:23:50 | BZFlag | captain_proton: I'm thinking of removing position and velocity from ShotBegin. |
| 04:24:05 | captain_proton | hmm |
| 04:24:10 | BZFlag | players will use the playerupdate location. |
| 04:24:32 | BZFlag | so the client will have to send a playerupdate before every shot. |
| 04:24:36 | captain_proton | don't you need velocity still? |
| 04:24:48 | captain_proton | or will the server decide that based on their current flag? |
| 04:25:11 | BZFlag | have the players and server compute that based on flag, tank position and heading. |
| 04:28:32 | SpaceGhost | captain_proton: OK! I was just on your server about 10 seconds before this bug cropped up! How am I supposed to enjoy my bzflag? |
| 04:28:32 | SpaceGhost | weeps onto his keyboard. |
| 04:42:11 | jacques | is shot speed relative to the shooter? |
| 04:42:28 | jacques | (should be) |
| 04:42:38 | captain_proton | yes |
| 04:42:45 | jacques | cool |
| 04:46:08 | jacques | SpaceGhost: what callsign do you play under? |
| 04:47:05 | captain_proton | jacques: its hunter |
| 04:47:56 | jacques | captain_proton: thanks |
| 04:48:23 | jacques | ah he must be [yfn] GM Hunder++ |
| 04:48:26 | jacques | Hunter |
| 04:48:34 | captain_proton | ++? |
| 04:48:43 | jacques | there's also a non++ version |
| 04:50:07 | SpaceGhost | jacques: What call sign are you? |
| 04:50:26 | jacques | SpaceGhost: currently do-over |
| 04:52:31 | jacques | laser is wayy too powerful |
| 04:53:08 | jacques | some guy just signed on, got Gm, droppde it, got laser, and went upto 16-0 in like 45 seconds |
| 04:53:31 | captain_proton | who? |
| 04:53:51 | jacques | amed red |
| 04:53:55 | jacques | named red |
| 04:54:01 | jacques | finally he killed himself |
| 04:54:10 | jacques | 19-1 |
| 04:54:13 | jacques | heh |
| 04:56:37 | SpaceGhost | he was good |
| 04:56:42 | SpaceGhost | and lucky |
| 04:57:23 | jacques | i still say laser is way too pwerful |
| 04:57:58 | jacques | he was extremely lucky to get GM and drop it then immediately get L |
| 04:58:20 | jacques | he aghta go to vegas |
| 04:58:27 | jacques | aughta |
| 04:59:07 | jacques | i mean, why would someone who got GM drop it? |
| 04:59:50 | captain_proton | i drop GM often |
| 05:00:01 | captain_proton | GM isn't much fun |
| 05:00:42 | jacques | great way to rack u ppoints tho |
| 05:00:49 | jacques | only thing faster is... L |
| 05:08:27 | SpaceGhost | jacques: He is lucky I didn't find cloak immediately. |
| 05:08:27 | SpaceGhost | jacques: So, how do you talk here while staying in bzflag? Are you in windows? |
| 05:09:27 | vogon_jeltz | no, he's not |
| 05:09:39 | vogon_jeltz | >jacques< CTCP VERSION |
| 05:09:39 | vogon_jeltz | -jacques- VERSION xchat 1.8.7 Linux 2.4.16 [i686/549MHz] |
| 05:10:01 | SpaceGhost | GM is total fun, if you're playing against stealths. |
| 05:10:35 | SpaceGhost | thinks GM and stealth are well balanced |
| 05:15:04 | BZFlag | stealth is fine, but it's so fast and easy for the GM to kill you while you look for it. |
| 05:15:52 | BZFlag | I'm thinking of slowing down and/or enforcing time between shots on GM. |
| 05:16:15 | vogon_jeltz | either that or make the guidance system fallible |
| 05:16:23 | jacques | yeah, and something on laser too please |
| 05:16:34 | vogon_jeltz | would hack on that himself, but he's busy embedding Tcl |
| 05:16:42 | vogon_jeltz | in my own project, that is |
| 05:16:48 | jacques | SpaceGhost: I have virtual desktops - bzflag is really good about switching |
| 05:16:48 | captain_proton | bastage |
| 05:16:56 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: heheh >:) |
| 05:17:54 | vogon_jeltz | don't worry; I'm wrapping it in C++, so you guys can feel free to steal the code for BZFlag 1.8 bots :) |
| 05:17:58 | jacques | if one does not have the flag-id feature in their client, it can be rather hard to find exactly the flag one needs on short notice |
| 05:18:27 | BZFlag | I think laser should "disperse" |
| 05:18:37 | jacques | esp with GM and L when the game keeps spawning one right near the enemy with said wep |
| 05:18:47 | BZFlag | perhaps 1.25 the length of a normal shot. |
| 05:18:54 | captain_proton | 1.5 i say |
| 05:19:03 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: I think it should just disperse when it hits a tank |
| 05:19:15 | jacques | too bad we dont have damage - damage could decrease with range |
| 05:19:35 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: that could introduce some bizzare lag effects |
| 05:19:58 | vogon_jeltz | Bizarre lag effects q0nz j00! |
| 05:20:06 | vogon_jeltz | ;) |
| 05:20:08 | captain_proton | q0wz ? |
| 05:20:11 | jacques | isnt that what regular shots do? |
| 05:20:16 | captain_proton | yes |
| 05:20:17 | vogon_jeltz | it's like 0wnz, but cooler |
| 05:20:21 | captain_proton | ohh |
| 05:20:49 | BZFlag | yeah, laser should probably stop when it hits something. |
| 05:20:58 | captain_proton | well... |
| 05:21:11 | BZFlag | I mean kills a tank. |
| 05:21:12 | captain_proton | lag would make it stopping on hit kinda weird (since it IS an instant weapon) |
| 05:21:17 | captain_proton | but it ought to not ricochet |
| 05:21:28 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: it's a hitscan, so you can introduce lag compensation |
| 05:21:43 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: assuming we're implementing more accurate lag measurement |
| 05:21:58 | captain_proton | dead reckoning is only so accurate |
| 05:22:16 | vogon_jeltz | true, but we can make at least the laser feel less laggy |
| 05:22:28 | BZFlag | if the server is the one sending kills, and the player is just informing, then the server could track whether a given shot number has already killed a tank. |
| 05:22:38 | captain_proton | i guess that's true |
| 05:23:02 | captain_proton | needs to remember that the server will be doing kills, not the client |
| 05:23:03 | BZFlag | player says he died, but he didn't. now that's a switch. |
| 05:23:16 | vogon_jeltz | you can also make non-hitscan weapons feel less laggy, but it requires an incredibly heinous amount of RAM |
| 05:23:52 | BZFlag | explain? |
| 05:25:12 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: you would have to keep track of the movements of all of the tanks for at least (n + m) milliseconds, where n and m are the highest two lag numbers on the field |
| 05:25:24 | jacques | ah the alternate dimensions method |
| 05:25:36 | jacques | heard of that |
| 05:25:56 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: and it'd take quite a bit of processing on the part of the server, too |
| 05:26:28 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: whenever a shot passes within (n + m) * maxSpeed meters of a tank, it has to step backwards in time to the shooter's view of the world |
| 05:28:03 | vogon_jeltz | theoretically, you could make compromises (the Unlagged mod for Q3 keeps track of only 600 ms of movement history), but it'd be a rip-off for the people who needed the compensation most |
| 05:28:58 | SpaceGhost | Laser should heat up the barrel of your gun so that if you shoot it for too long, you cannot shoot anymore. |
| 05:29:15 | vogon_jeltz | that's why we have reload time ;) |
| 05:29:47 | vogon_jeltz | I wanted to implement good-flag drop time/kills |
| 05:29:59 | vogon_jeltz | but I accidentally nuked the tree |
| 05:30:05 | jacques | vogon_jeltz: so all we need is good lag calculation :-) |
| 05:30:26 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: yup, and a fair amount of trigonometry :) |
| 05:32:17 | jacques | vogon_jeltz: heh i can think of some issues |
| 05:32:17 | vogon_jeltz | just came up with a fairly cool cheat-protection scheme... |
| 05:32:47 | jacques | vogon_jeltz: what about the server having to roll-back all the stuff a player does after he is killed before the server figures out he is killed? |
| 05:33:07 | jacques | hmmm maybe that's not an issue |
| 05:33:20 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: if shots are validated server-side, then the shot won't be fired in the first place |
| 05:33:25 | jacques | because technically he hasnt don e it yet |
| 05:33:29 | vogon_jeltz | yeah |
| 05:33:35 | jacques | ok i am an idiot :-) |
| 05:33:41 | vogon_jeltz | nah, not really :) |
| 05:33:53 | jacques | that can mess with one's head |
| 05:33:56 | jacques | :-) |
| 05:34:08 | jacques | i remember thinking of that method with PC battlezone |
| 05:34:11 | vogon_jeltz | gets back to work on this Tcl wrapper |
| 05:37:47 | vogon_jeltz | drops it for now and starts working on a popt wrapper |
| 05:38:12 | SpaceGhost | vogon_jeltz: How can you work with all that IRC ing? |
| 05:38:14 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 05:38:20 | vogon_jeltz | I drop in from time to time |
| 05:38:33 | vogon_jeltz | I use two tabbed xterms |
| 05:38:52 | vogon_jeltz | (keep one for man pages and the like, and the other for vi) |
| 05:40:33 | jacques | hmg |
| 05:40:46 | jacques | needs to use higher bit z-buffer |
| 05:40:55 | jacques | am getting z-buffer artifacts |
| 05:40:57 | captain_proton | get a different graphics card |
| 05:41:04 | jacques | why? |
| 05:41:11 | jacques | my card supports 32bit z-buffer |
| 05:41:22 | jacques | not its fault only 16bit is being used |
| 05:41:40 | captain_proton | uhm |
| 05:41:51 | captain_proton | it automatically uses the highest depth |
| 05:42:01 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: what card? |
| 05:42:15 | jacques | nvidia geforce2 MX with 32MB RAM |
| 05:42:21 | vogon_jeltz | lame card |
| 05:42:29 | BZFlag | shots are not verified. kills are. |
| 05:42:53 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: unless you're running in 16-bit color, then it'll use the 32-bit z-buffer |
| 05:43:40 | jacques | vogon_jeltz: why you say that? I am pretty sure drivers allow 16-bit Z with 32bit color |
| 05:43:59 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: uhh, not on my box |
| 05:44:11 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: all of the GL visuals have 32-bit z-buffers |
| 05:45:02 | jacques | well these things I know; 1) I am in 24bit mode (32 is not supported by X driver) 2) I am getting Z artifacts |
| 05:45:08 | jacques | depth of root window: 24 planes |
| 05:45:14 | jacques | same for all other visuals |
| 05:45:42 | vogon_jeltz | well, captain_proton and I aren't, and we're using the same color depth and driver |
| 05:45:58 | captain_proton | has a real graphics card though =) |
| 05:46:29 | jacques | something screwey is going on |
| 05:46:39 | jacques | sometimes the artifacts are worse than others |
| 05:46:56 | jacques | i wonder if the driver altomatically steps down Z depth when low on RAM |
| 05:47:51 | jacques | you dont see anything at the bases of the columns in decks? |
| 05:47:56 | jacques | th far ones? |
| 05:48:44 | captain_proton | jacques: i see the bases all the time |
| 05:49:01 | jacques | that was not my question |
| 05:49:15 | jacques | <jacques> you dont see anything *at* the bases of the columns in decks? |
| 05:49:26 | jacques | where anything is defined as Z artifacting |
| 05:49:41 | jacques | since we are being so literal |
| 05:49:48 | captain_proton | thats what i mean |
| 05:49:49 | captain_proton | i don' |
| 05:49:54 | captain_proton | i don't have any artifacts |
| 05:49:55 | vogon_jeltz | neither do I |
| 05:50:07 | vogon_jeltz | possibly because I have the good version of the Ge2MX |
| 05:50:19 | captain_proton | the only time i've ever seen z-buffer artifacting is in really high-detail worlds in bzedit |
| 05:50:34 | vogon_jeltz | which is your fault, you lazy bastard |
| 05:50:37 | vogon_jeltz | ;) |
| 05:50:46 | captain_proton | how is it my fault? |
| 05:50:58 | captain_proton | i spent several days tweaking the frustum to minimize it |
| 05:50:59 | jacques | vogon_jeltz: good version? |
| 05:51:08 | jacques | vogon_jeltz: define good version please |
| 05:51:13 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: the one with 64MB of RAM and the faster chip |
| 05:51:21 | captain_proton | and no AGP ;) |
| 05:51:23 | jacques | vogon_jeltz: all the 64MB ones had slow ram |
| 05:51:33 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: ehhhhnt |
| 05:51:47 | jacques | unless they came out with it in the last couple of months |
| 05:51:50 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: this one runs at 200MHz core, 166MHz DDR RAM |
| 05:51:56 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: it's the Ge2MX400 |
| 05:52:08 | jacques | mine runs at 183MHz DDR out of the box |
| 05:52:21 | jacques | can OC to about 220 |
| 05:52:24 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: heh... if I had some AGP slots, I'd have gotten the AGP version ;) |
| 05:52:28 | jacques | but it's not OC'd now |
| 05:52:32 | vogon_jeltz | jacques: is it a Visiontek? |
| 05:52:36 | jacques | hercules |
| 05:52:40 | vogon_jeltz | ahh |
| 05:52:46 | vogon_jeltz | yeah, they go beyond the reference design |
| 05:52:54 | jacques | they put in faster chips |
| 05:53:24 | vogon_jeltz | whee, this looks fun |
| 05:53:35 | jacques | dunno why i havent seen this problem before |
| 05:53:38 | vogon_jeltz | int poptDupArgv(int, const char **, int *, const char ***) |
| 05:53:43 | jacques | it's really apparent tonight |
| 06:19:06 | BZFlag | later |
| 06:19:11 | vogon_jeltz | cya |
| 06:45:59 | jacques | hi iLLf8d |
| 06:46:10 | jacques | didnt know that ws you |
| 06:47:11 | iLLf8d | yeah |
| 06:47:18 | iLLf8d | thats my alternative when i'm a ghost |
| 06:47:25 | iLLf8d | will change it to my other nick |
| 06:48:08 | iLLf8d | I just changed it to this -> ][v][oe |
| 06:48:09 | iLLf8d | hhe |
| 06:48:18 | iLLf8d | ok time to shoot a bit bbiaf |
| 06:53:00 | jacques | arg, not responding bug on decks |
| 06:53:03 | jacques | trying again |
| 06:53:24 | jacques | nope no luck |
| 07:10:51 | iLLf8d | you get booted jacques? |
| 07:10:55 | iLLf8d | hey cap you take your server down? |
| 07:10:57 | iLLf8d | or is there a ghost me on server? |
| 07:10:59 | iLLf8d | I get error connectings now |
| 07:11:01 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 07:14:13 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 07:14:18 | iLLf8d | somethings acting all wierd tonight |
| 07:24:27 | jacques | hmm i solved my everyone not responding problem by changing to tcp mode |
| 07:24:32 | jacques | but it's not as smooth |
| 07:24:40 | captain_proton | UDP firewall perhaps? |
| 07:40:35 | jacques | yah but thing it, ths only happens some days |
| 07:40:42 | jacques | some days I can play fine |
| 07:47:31 | Aldebaran | is there a cheat that allows a tank to turn fast? |
| 07:47:43 | jacques | heh there are cheats that allow all sorts of things |
| 07:47:58 | jacques | fast turn, smaller bounding box, faster speed, fater chots |
| 07:48:02 | jacques | flag id |
| 07:48:12 | jacques | turn in air |
| 07:48:19 | vogon_jeltz | the ability to drop bad flags |
| 07:48:38 | Aldebaran | but is there a known chat that allows.. a play I respect seems to believe that I turn faster than I should be able to |
| 07:48:49 | jacques | bzflag is unfortunately awash with cheat possibilities :-) |
| 07:49:26 | Aldebaran | there are only a few players I would care if they thought I was cheating, this is one of them |
| 07:49:34 | jacques | i saw that |
| 07:49:37 | captain_proton | hey purple |
| 07:49:41 | Aldebaran | hi |
| 07:49:42 | jacques | I mean I was on the server, didnt see the turn |
| 07:50:05 | jacques | unfortunately there is no way to prove you're *not* cheating either :-( |
| 07:50:08 | Aldebaran | is there a way to checksum an client to verify it is ... |
| 07:50:19 | captain_proton | no |
| 07:50:21 | jacques | that would require binary-only clients |
| 07:50:37 | jacques | liek they did with nettrek |
| 07:50:43 | jacques | that was a pain |
| 07:51:28 | jacques | Aldebaran: Ive seen you play, you are good. |
| 07:51:40 | Aldebaran | thank you very much that means a lot to me |
| 07:51:59 | jacques | heh, well I;m nobody so dont get too excited :-) |
| 07:52:09 | jacques | some ppl I can just tell they are good |
| 07:52:16 | jacques | and I understand when they kill me |
| 07:52:28 | jacques | some ppl wh oare not good always kill me and i cant kill them |
| 07:52:38 | jacques | those I find suspicious |
| 07:53:03 | Aldebaran | at the chardonnay server my scores are always negative |
| 07:53:12 | jacques | well that is a big cheater server |
| 07:53:18 | jacques | i dont go there anymore |
| 07:53:35 | jacques | plus I just really like the decks map |
| 07:53:58 | Aldebaran | I liked the round decks map, but it was only up for a bit |
| 07:54:07 | jacques | ah yeah I was there once |
| 07:54:15 | jacques | maybe it will go up again sometime |
| 07:54:21 | jacques | ask captain_proton :-) |
| 07:55:19 | jacques | and maybe flags will go away from decks one day again too :-D |
| 07:56:12 | Aldebaran | I missed the flags at first, but did well without them. Most players perhaps rely on them a lot. |
| 07:56:49 | jacques | i dont mind them on some maps, but decks plays really well without them |
| 07:57:00 | Aldebaran | I'm going to go play, bye |
| 07:57:01 | jacques | and I get tired of always getting killed by laser and GM |
| 07:57:05 | jacques | bye have fun |
| 07:58:43 | jacques | oh, I forgot the see stealthed and cloaked player cheats |
| 07:59:06 | vogon_jeltz | and permanent OO |
| 07:59:32 | vogon_jeltz | and being able to shoot while in a building |
| 08:05:43 | jacques | :-) |
| 08:05:55 | jacques | and the bind key to flag cheat |
| 08:06:03 | jacques | hmm, g == GM l == L |
| 08:16:20 | iLLf8d | hg |
| 08:16:27 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 08:17:05 | jacques | ok heading home - will be on from there |
| 08:33:55 | captain_proton | heh |
| 08:34:58 | captain_proton | no more 0wn4ge |
| 08:36:51 | vogon_jeltz | is away: TV |
| 08:41:40 | BZFlag | breaks the wiki |
| 08:41:47 | captain_proton | ? |
| 08:47:40 | captain_proton | how? |
| 08:51:38 | captain_proton | whoa... |
| 08:51:45 | captain_proton | wiped the databases? |
| 09:17:32 | BZFlag | yeah, doing an upgrade. I have the old pages backed up. |
| 10:05:50 | BZFlag | wiki is back |
| 10:07:00 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 01:30:09) |
| 10:31:39 | BZFlag | how's the wiki looking after the minor facelift? |
| 10:31:54 | BZFlag | html text in pages it broken. some pages are ugly. |
| 10:31:59 | BZFlag | but other than that.... |
| 10:34:15 | vogon_jeltz | you guys think you'll be interested in the Tcl wrapper (eww, yuck, whatever) I'm hacking together? |
| 10:42:52 | BZFlag | I'd mbe more interested in a non-gui bot. ;-) |
| 10:43:33 | vogon_jeltz | hehe |
| 10:43:44 | vogon_jeltz | this can provide a non-GUI bot ;) |
| 10:44:09 | vogon_jeltz | all you gotta do is take this class, wrap it up with the network stuff, and apply some glue, write a script, and you're golden |
| 10:44:26 | vogon_jeltz | s/and apply/apply/ |
| 10:44:30 | vogon_jeltz | s/write/and write/ |
| 10:50:18 | vogon_jeltz | ../include/TclInterpreter.h:103: cannot convert `int (*) (int, Tcl_Interp *, int, Tcl_Obj *)' to `int (*) (void *, Tcl_Interp *, int, Tcl_Obj *const *)' for argument `3' to `Tcl_CreateObjCommand (Tcl_Interp *, char *, int (*) (void *, Tcl_Interp *, int, Tcl_Obj *const *), void *, void (*) (void *))' |
| 16:47:49 | vogon_jeltz | is away: sl33p |
| 18:44:24 | scanline | is back (gone 14:38:06) |
| 20:13:33 | captain_proton | ibot, x de en Die Volldarstellung von unbekannten Mails mit gefährlichem Inhalt kann ein Sicherheitsrisiko für Ihren PC darstellen |
| 20:13:34 | | captain_proton: The full representation of unknown Mails with gef |
| 20:19:42 | Chestal | captain: where is that from? |
| 20:19:59 | captain_proton | Chestal: a different irc |
| 20:52:11 | captain_proton | wb |
| 20:52:24 | scanline | thanks |
| 20:53:04 | captain_proton | i'm probably getting the key to my lab today =) |
| 20:55:32 | scanline | which lab? |
| 20:55:53 | captain_proton | 2 friends and I are getting our own electronics lab |
| 20:56:03 | captain_proton | at least until the fall semester |
| 20:56:34 | scanline | cool! |
| 20:56:56 | captain_proton | ... which means we have access to an uncapped ethernet line ;) |
| 20:57:13 | scanline | hehe, nice |
| 20:59:03 | captain_proton | decides to check out CaptBurrito again |
| 20:59:17 | scanline | haha |
| 20:59:33 | scanline | so what will you be up to over spring break? |
| 20:59:54 | captain_proton | i imagine mostly i'll be sleeping |
| 21:00:09 | scanline | hehe |
| 21:01:39 | captain_proton | puts the advanced unix programming book in his bag to remember to return it |
| 21:02:23 | scanline | gets his dreamcast broadband adaptor today.. yay! |
| 21:02:23 | Chestal | listens to 'In A Gadda Da Vida' |
| 21:02:47 | captain_proton | scanline: you have too many toys |
| 21:03:08 | scanline | is that possible? |
| 21:03:18 | captain_proton | well |
| 21:03:21 | captain_proton | timmy says it isn't |
| 21:03:26 | captain_proton | but he has even more than you |
| 21:03:32 | scanline | yes |
| 21:03:40 | scanline | at least several hundred :) |
| 21:04:05 | captain_proton | nobody should own an atm =| |
| 21:04:31 | scanline | hahaha |
| 21:04:40 | scanline | did it come with much money? |
| 21:04:47 | captain_proton | i don't know |
| 21:04:49 | captain_proton | ask him |
| 21:05:00 | scanline | BZFlag: an ATM, eh? |
| 21:05:01 | scanline | :) |
| 21:05:05 | captain_proton | nobody wants to talk with CaptBurrito |
| 21:05:14 | Chestal | wonders whether he should try to use preempt kernel patches |
| 21:39:42 | captain_proton | woooo |
| 21:39:46 | captain_proton | COJellybean: you stole my mail |
| 21:45:42 | scanline | :) |
| 21:45:54 | captain_proton | this person knows you |
| 21:46:00 | captain_proton | a friend? |
| 21:46:01 | scanline | eh? |
| 21:46:07 | captain_proton | COJellybean |
| 21:46:08 | scanline | i don't recognize the screen name |
| 21:46:15 | captain_proton | hmm |
| 21:46:24 | scanline | how do you know he/she knows me? |
| 21:46:34 | captain_proton | (14:39:20) COJellybean: :) Micah? |
| 21:46:38 | scanline | o... |
| 21:47:16 | scanline | still don't recognize the name |
| 21:47:49 | captain_proton | hmm |
| 21:49:17 | BZFlag | scanline: yep. still got it. |
| 21:49:44 | scanline | BZFlag: hehe.. got linux on it yet? |
| 21:50:02 | BZFlag | http://www.diebold.com/nasadmk/inside/identify_1060i.htm |
| 21:50:28 | BZFlag | nope, it's missing a board, so I didn't even start. |
| 21:50:51 | scanline | what CPU? |
| 21:51:24 | captain_proton | BZFlag: you are weird |
| 21:51:40 | scanline | just thinks captain_proton needs more non-x86 hardware :) |
| 21:52:49 | captain_proton | ha |
| 21:53:12 | scanline | captain_proton: fix your Tuxscreen |
| 21:53:30 | captain_proton | realizes he has class in 5 minutes |
| 21:53:33 | captain_proton | runs off |
| 23:01:12 | captain_proton | comes back |