| 00:45:18 | | vogon_jeltz was last seen on #bzflag 1 hours, 6 minutes and 2 seconds ago, saying: not a problem [Thu Jan 24 23:39:16 2002] |
| 00:45:18 | MrApathyCream | ibot, seen vogon_jeltz? |
| 01:31:24 | captain_proton | whats up MrApathyCream? |
| 02:44:19 | captain_proton | BZFlag: what have you d/l'ed so far - i need to get rid of some stuff :) |
| 02:58:01 | ZEUS_bz | hello |
| 03:38:02 | BZFlag | captain_proton needs to find the rsync logs |
| 04:13:39 | captain_proton | BZFlag: i've *got* the rsync logs |
| 04:13:59 | captain_proton | rsyncd[19577]: rsync on ftp/*avi from gk2-ext.lineo.com (64.50.107.253) |
| 04:14:02 | captain_proton | its useless |
| 04:14:52 | Gerbil | Hey it works! |
| 04:15:03 | captain_proton | wow! |
| 04:15:16 | Gerbil | lol--this is an accomplishment for us non techies |
| 04:15:52 | Gerbil | So yeah--sorry about site--Tripod lost a slew of my updated webpages on their protocol changeover |
| 04:16:15 | Gerbil | Then wife got blood clots in both lungs and fractured ankle--the nerve |
| 04:16:25 | captain_proton | lol |
| 04:16:30 | captain_proton | she ok? |
| 04:16:44 | Gerbil | She is ok now--on blood thinners and home for 3 months |
| 04:17:09 | Gerbil | And I have 3 boys so a LITTLE busy--now I am "Mr Mom" |
| 04:17:26 | Gerbil | So you play and do this at same time? |
| 04:17:35 | captain_proton | no |
| 04:17:39 | captain_proton | i quite shortly after you did |
| 04:17:42 | Gerbil | and are all thee names actually ON now or just "sitting" |
| 04:17:45 | Gerbil | ahh |
| 04:17:49 | captain_proton | just sitting |
| 04:17:52 | Gerbil | nhad to reboot |
| 04:17:53 | captain_proton | like me most of the time |
| 04:17:59 | Gerbil | gotcha |
| 04:18:13 | vogon_jeltz | I'm here... I'm just killing time while I download XEmacs |
| 04:18:14 | Gerbil | Imadea ctf world with a castle in each corner |
| 04:18:28 | Gerbil | another is a no-jump no suspended heights world |
| 04:18:29 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: i'm betting you haven't written a line of code yet |
| 04:18:34 | captain_proton | Gerbil: send them over |
| 04:18:35 | vogon_jeltz | nope >:) |
| 04:18:46 | Gerbil | Ok--since I cant get them "public" |
| 04:18:47 | captain_proton | come on...we're both waiting on you... |
| 04:19:01 | Gerbil | what code is he supposed to be producing? |
| 04:19:14 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: once I have XEmacs, I'll get right to it |
| 04:19:43 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: why use emacs at all? its disgusting |
| 04:19:44 | Gerbil | <I need a manual for this irc--yikes!> |
| 04:20:20 | Gerbil | pardon...but was does Chris Carter of the X-files have to do with this? |
| 04:20:28 | captain_proton | Gerbil: the thing we're working on is a way to define flag-spawn areas in the world file |
| 04:20:36 | Gerbil | ok |
| 04:20:49 | Gerbil | how about a way to preposition flags? |
| 04:20:55 | Gerbil | in world map? |
| 04:21:01 | captain_proton | well...thats pretty much what this is... |
| 04:21:07 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 04:21:08 | Gerbil | yeah--what you said |
| 04:21:10 | Gerbil | nduuh |
| 04:21:16 | captain_proton | you can define them like a box, then define which flags can spawn there |
| 04:21:23 | Gerbil | Super cool idea |
| 04:21:27 | vogon_jeltz | just make a .1x.1x.1 box for each flag |
| 04:21:32 | Gerbil | You could have "GM rooms", etc |
| 04:21:40 | Gerbil | awesome |
| 04:21:40 | captain_proton | Gerbil: yeah, but those would suck |
| 04:21:49 | Gerbil | Whaaaaaaaat??!! |
| 04:21:55 | captain_proton | this also provides a way to spawn flags on buildings |
| 04:22:48 | Gerbil | It opens up great world design features if you let mapmaker place flags |
| 04:22:52 | captain_proton | yeah |
| 04:22:56 | Gerbil | Good strategy build-in |
| 04:23:11 | captain_proton | of course it *can* be ovverridden if the server op desires not to use -fez |
| 04:23:15 | Gerbil | Combined with CTF and this could be chesslike |
| 04:23:21 | captain_proton | Gerbil: :) |
| 04:23:28 | Gerbil | grrr |
| 04:23:40 | captain_proton | we'd like to do something similar for spawn positions but that breaks protocol |
| 04:23:57 | Gerbil | Why cant you do it like the bases do? |
| 04:24:05 | captain_proton | Gerbil: huh? |
| 04:24:10 | vogon_jeltz | Gerbil: spawn is a client-side thing |
| 04:24:16 | Gerbil | For spawn of tanks or flags you meant? |
| 04:24:22 | captain_proton | spawn of tanks |
| 04:24:34 | Gerbil | Why not use CTF placemnt on bases |
| 04:24:41 | Gerbil | ncant you do something like that? |
| 04:24:49 | Gerbil | Not ctf |
| 04:24:50 | captain_proton | Gerbil: not without breaking protocol |
| 04:25:05 | Gerbil | hmmm...well that taps my expertise out |
| 04:25:05 | captain_proton | right now player respawn is determined completely by the client |
| 04:25:25 | Gerbil | I will have to learn to hack one day |
| 04:25:26 | captain_proton | so it can't be done without changing the protocol |
| 04:25:43 | Gerbil | <--could be a script kiddie |
| 04:25:47 | captain_proton | hah |
| 04:26:19 | Gerbil | someone email me a windows compiler and illget to work |
| 04:26:24 | Gerbil | hehe |
| 04:26:29 | vogon_jeltz | get cygwin |
| 04:26:40 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: hard to compile bzflag under cygwin =/ |
| 04:26:40 | Gerbil | using it would be me problem |
| 04:26:48 | Gerbil | Hey--on a tech note... |
| 04:27:11 | Gerbil | Did you know that way sound files are read in BZ has been affeected by microsoft? |
| 04:27:22 | vogon_jeltz | ? |
| 04:27:24 | captain_proton | no |
| 04:27:33 | Gerbil | I can produce waves that wont play in BZ |
| 04:27:51 | captain_proton | Gerbil: i think thats a problem with your sound program, not bzflag |
| 04:28:04 | vogon_jeltz | that's because these are platform-independent WAVs |
| 04:28:10 | vogon_jeltz | they use an industry standard |
| 04:28:19 | vogon_jeltz | and Microsoft, like with everything else, doesn't obey it |
| 04:28:32 | Gerbil | right |
| 04:28:37 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: we'll just have to switch to ogg |
| 04:28:43 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: >:) |
| 04:29:28 | Gerbil | I use onme sound editor and when it was updated, Wavs produced didnt work |
| 04:29:40 | Gerbil | Kinda like my BAT files |
| 04:29:42 | captain_proton | Gerbil: then its your sound editor, not bzflag |
| 04:29:43 | Gerbil | in E4 |
| 04:29:48 | Gerbil | Yes |
| 04:29:49 | captain_proton | or you just have a bad computer ;) |
| 04:29:53 | vogon_jeltz | is away: The Tick |
| 04:29:53 | Gerbil | oh haha |
| 04:30:12 | captain_proton | scolds Gerbil's computer - bad computer! sit! |
| 04:30:16 | Gerbil | I got one of the defense departments parrallel cray arrays installed in my home now |
| 04:30:21 | Gerbil | from noradf |
| 04:30:24 | Gerbil | norad |
| 04:30:50 | Gerbil | <sniff..and not even a laugh> |
| 04:31:35 | Gerbil | So when you guys are conjuring ur programming arcana in thes dark techie rooms why dont ysa'll ask for player input? |
| 04:31:53 | vogon_jeltz | because we're too l33t to need input |
| 04:32:02 | Gerbil | oww |
| 04:32:09 | vogon_jeltz | :) |
| 04:32:16 | vogon_jeltz | we have write-only minds |
| 04:32:20 | vogon_jeltz | s/write/read/ |
| 04:32:23 | Gerbil | Like the degrees to radian switchover was a bit inconsiderate |
| 04:32:33 | Gerbil | Serious question? |
| 04:32:34 | vogon_jeltz | that one wasn't my fault |
| 04:32:37 | Gerbil | If I may? |
| 04:32:46 | vogon_jeltz | and I slapped in a reverse-compatibility kludge that they didn't accept |
| 04:32:59 | Gerbil | welll you were right |
| 04:33:12 | Gerbil | <lack of player feedback ther> |
| 04:33:18 | | Question is who'll get there first... I should have gone to bed about two hours ago.. but I'm playing on Tangent's stowaway keyboard now |
| 04:33:18 | Gerbil | Question? |
| 04:33:25 | captain_proton | Gerbil: don't worry - i'm completely changing the world format anyhoo :) |
| 04:33:26 | Gerbil | lol |
| 04:33:34 | | well, a question is who'll get there first... I should have gone to bed about two hours ago.. but I'm playing on Tangent's stowaway keyboard now |
| 04:33:34 | Gerbil | A question? |
| 04:33:56 | Gerbil | ya know--thats irritating |
| 04:34:17 | | captain_proton: I forgot question |
| 04:34:17 | captain_proton | ibot, forget question |
| 04:34:33 | Gerbil | imafraid to ask what that was ll about |
| 04:34:55 | Gerbil | E3 and earlier shows my static IPaddress for my machine |
| 04:34:59 | captain_proton | just ibot picking up stuff it shouldn't |
| 04:35:12 | Gerbil | E4 shows on list server the DNS for my ISP |
| 04:35:25 | Gerbil | TANd bats dont work on e4 that were made before |
| 04:35:25 | captain_proton | Gerbil: weird |
| 04:35:30 | Gerbil | Whats connection? |
| 04:35:36 | captain_proton | Gerbil: i think you'll like the new world format: |
| 04:35:37 | captain_proton | box { |
| 04:35:41 | captain_proton | position x y z |
| 04:35:43 | captain_proton | size x y z |
| 04:35:46 | captain_proton | rotation are |
| 04:35:47 | captain_proton | } |
| 04:35:55 | Gerbil | Sounds simpler |
| 04:36:03 | Gerbil | looks javalike |
| 04:36:05 | captain_proton | or even better: |
| 04:36:08 | captain_proton | flagzone { |
| 04:36:11 | captain_proton | position x y z |
| 04:36:13 | captain_proton | size x y z |
| 04:36:17 | captain_proton | rotation are |
| 04:36:22 | Gerbil | That really is a great idea for a feature |
| 04:36:24 | captain_proton | flags { L GM SW } |
| 04:36:25 | captain_proton | } |
| 04:36:28 | Gerbil | oops |
| 04:36:51 | Gerbil | So thosee flags would spawn in that box? |
| 04:37:03 | captain_proton | yep |
| 04:37:08 | Gerbil | Very cool |
| 04:37:19 | Gerbil | This is "1.8" you are referring to? |
| 04:37:23 | captain_proton | Gerbil: nope |
| 04:37:27 | captain_proton | this stuff is completely compatible |
| 04:37:32 | captain_proton | 'cept you have to convert the worlds |
| 04:37:33 | Gerbil | gah--E5, 6, 7? |
| 04:37:40 | Gerbil | oh haha |
| 04:37:48 | Gerbil | nthat kinda redefines "completley" |
| 04:37:58 | captain_proton | well... |
| 04:38:00 | Gerbil | like "almost unique" |
| 04:38:08 | Gerbil | But sounds good |
| 04:38:08 | captain_proton | by comptabile i mean it works with 1.7e clients |
| 04:38:16 | Gerbil | that will be good |
| 04:38:22 | Gerbil | So when might this appear? |
| 04:38:29 | captain_proton | Gerbil: once vogon_jeltz gets off his ass |
| 04:38:34 | Gerbil | ooooh |
| 04:38:40 | Gerbil | them's fightin' words! |
| 04:39:14 | Gerbil | So what you mean is that you are a hard working genius but he's holding up the project with his ineptitudea? |
| 04:39:19 | Gerbil | nhehe |
| 04:39:40 | Gerbil | <--hates his tiny keyboard |
| 04:39:52 | captain_proton | no |
| 04:39:56 | vogon_jeltz | no, I'm holding the project up with my laziness |
| 04:39:58 | captain_proton | he's holding up the project with his laziness |
| 04:40:01 | captain_proton | rofl |
| 04:40:09 | Gerbil | Oh--then you AARE programmers! |
| 04:40:13 | vogon_jeltz | my ineptitude has nothing to do with it |
| 04:40:33 | Gerbil | I have enough ineptitude for both of you |
| 04:40:51 | Gerbil | So you can relax,knowing that ther's always one beneath you |
| 04:41:01 | Gerbil | sniff..sniff..waves of self pity |
| 04:41:40 | Gerbil | Ok--so we have placed flags and new coord scheme--what else? |
| 04:42:01 | captain_proton | new coord scheme? |
| 04:42:24 | Gerbil | And big "what"is hwat design program will non-programmers use to make worlds or will it effectively be taken out of their hands? |
| 04:42:34 | Gerbil | and dont tellme graph papaer and a calculater |
| 04:42:50 | captain_proton | Gerbil: i'm gonna make bzflag support the new world format soon |
| 04:43:01 | Gerbil | That will be cool |
| 04:43:09 | Gerbil | The flag thing is worth it |
| 04:43:09 | captain_proton | ack |
| 04:43:12 | captain_proton | bzedit i mean |
| 04:43:13 | Gerbil | ack? |
| 04:43:16 | Gerbil | hehe |
| 04:43:21 | Gerbil | blasphemeer!! |
| 04:43:45 | Gerbil | well ya got bz world edit and bz world--go figure |
| 04:43:56 | Gerbil | imconfused |
| 04:44:23 | Gerbil | Will i still be able to drive under walls and stuff? |
| 04:44:33 | Gerbil | or are ya gonna get rid of that too? |
| 04:44:39 | Gerbil | <don't!> |
| 04:44:46 | captain_proton | Gerbil: we haven't really started on 1.8 yet |
| 04:45:02 | captain_proton | but it will probably do collisions with more than just the bottom of the tank |
| 04:45:05 | Gerbil | That really shoylkd be left in--at least till you can get doors open in game |
| 04:45:17 | Gerbil | boo-boo |
| 04:45:30 | Gerbil | Better make me sliding walls and doors |
| 04:45:34 | Gerbil | then |
| 04:45:54 | captain_proton | hopefully we'll get custom-textured objects in 1.8 |
| 04:45:57 | Gerbil | buttons that tank has to shoot to turn on telport would be good |
| 04:46:16 | Gerbil | have on-off switches |
| 04:46:16 | Gerbil | walls that do same |
| 04:46:24 | Gerbil | almost like a mouseover image change |
| 04:46:35 | Gerbil | on a web page |
| 04:46:53 | captain_proton | Gerbil: ick |
| 04:46:58 | Gerbil | what? |
| 04:47:03 | Gerbil | nwhat did I say? |
| 04:47:11 | captain_proton | <Gerbil> almost like a mouseover image change |
| 04:47:11 | captain_proton | <Gerbil> on a web page |
| 04:47:16 | Gerbil | ahhh |
| 04:47:22 | Gerbil | Iran out of paper to go on |
| 04:47:28 | Gerbil | so I got a web page |
| 04:47:34 | Gerbil | nkeeps my cage clean |
| 04:48:09 | Gerbil | So what are chances of ever having door and telports that can be opened closed? |
| 04:48:22 | captain_proton | at this point i'd say about 2% |
| 04:48:24 | Gerbil | That and flaags would be great |
| 04:48:28 | Gerbil | lol |
| 04:48:41 | captain_proton | riker is intent on not having bzflag become another quake |
| 04:48:57 | Gerbil | I guess virtual 3d bz with tactile feedback and surround sound is out too hunh? |
| 04:49:06 | captain_proton | most likely |
| 04:49:24 | captain_proton | but worlds should get a lot more interesting, network should get *much* better, graphics will be better, etc |
| 04:49:33 | Gerbil | SoI dont get why having doors that open and close is such a major "compromise"of the game |
| 04:49:57 | captain_proton | when was the last time you saw a tank open a door by pushing a button? |
| 04:50:03 | Gerbil | Will we ever have joystick support? |
| 04:50:09 | captain_proton | Gerbil: we should already... |
| 04:50:20 | Gerbil | When was the last time you saw a building with no door? |
| 04:50:28 | Gerbil | HA! |
| 04:50:31 | captain_proton | yesterday |
| 04:50:37 | Gerbil | oh stop |
| 04:50:55 | Gerbil | i mean besides your padded cell fom inside |
| 04:51:26 | Gerbil | No ramps, no automatic doors--thats not handicapped accesible |
| 04:51:36 | Gerbil | violation of law |
| 04:52:41 | captain_proton | we might have ramps |
| 04:54:41 | captain_proton | goes to watch star trek 6 |
| 04:56:23 | Gerbil | gerbiul goes an stares at wall--nite |
| 04:57:51 | BZFlag | when was the last time you saw a tank fly? |
| 05:09:48 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 00:39:56) |
| 05:15:49 | vogon_jeltz | eww... |
| 05:16:29 | vogon_jeltz | this code is the suck |
| 05:18:35 | vogon_jeltz | the list of FlagEntryZones will be in element id of Pezfla, right? |
| 05:38:38 | MrApathyCream | BZFlag: It is safe to assume, any platform running BZFlag can handle misaligned memory access? |
| 05:40:57 | BZFlag | thinks..... |
| 05:41:02 | vogon_jeltz | w0rkz |
| 05:41:29 | BZFlag | MrApathyCream: I can't think of anyplace that assumes that. |
| 05:41:53 | MrApathyCream | BZFlag: Legal to do: |
| 05:41:58 | MrApathyCream | char buffer[5]; |
| 05:42:21 | MrApathyCream | int i = *((int *) &buffer[1]); |
| 05:43:13 | MrApathyCream | currently, BZ does memcpy's to avoid this |
| 05:43:23 | BZFlag | right. |
| 05:43:46 | MrApathyCream | BZFlag: Want to stick to this plan, then (the memcpy scheme), I assume? |
| 05:43:51 | BZFlag | yes. |
| 05:43:57 | MrApathyCream | ok |
| 05:47:05 | vogon_jeltz | for (i = 0; *pFEZ != NULL && i < numAllowedFlags; i++) { |
| 05:47:07 | vogon_jeltz | muwahahahaha |
| 05:49:25 | MrApathyCream | vogon_jeltz: don't tease me! |
| 05:49:32 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 05:49:40 | vogon_jeltz | I'm stuck on the trig |
| 05:50:09 | MrApathyCream | trig? what trig? |
| 05:50:27 | vogon_jeltz | for the transforms for flagzone rotation |
| 05:50:46 | MrApathyCream | ahh. yes. |
| 05:51:03 | MrApathyCream | x = cos(@)x - sin(@)y |
| 05:51:13 | MrApathyCream | y = sin(@)x + cos(@)y |
| 05:51:14 | vogon_jeltz | yeah |
| 05:51:16 | vogon_jeltz | thx |
| 05:53:57 | vogon_jeltz | intraZonePos[0] = ((int)rint(bzfrand() * 2) - 1) * chosenZone->size[0]; |
| 05:54:17 | vogon_jeltz | eep |
| 05:54:44 | vogon_jeltz | intraZonePos[0] = ((int)rint(bzfrand() * 2) - 1) * (bzfrand() * chosenZone->size[0]); |
| 05:54:45 | vogon_jeltz | there |
| 06:00:37 | vogon_jeltz | so, is WorldInfo::isValidFlagEntryPos() designed to figure out if a flag is allowed to land after it is dropped? |
| 06:03:27 | vogon_jeltz | j00 here, apathy cream? |
| 06:03:38 | vogon_jeltz | MrApathyCream: yo, wake up! |
| 06:09:49 | vogon_jeltz | god, this typing stuff sucks |
| 06:12:49 | vogon_jeltz | argh |
| 06:12:58 | vogon_jeltz | I'm going to post my (broken) patch-in-progress |
| 06:13:14 | vogon_jeltz | this whole awful typecasting thing was the reason I stopped working with BZFlag in the first place |
| 06:14:53 | BZFlag | feels like converting the whole thing over to longs. |
| 06:15:06 | vogon_jeltz | hah |
| 06:15:11 | BZFlag | measure everything in millimeters or something. |
| 06:15:23 | vogon_jeltz | give me a call when you chuck AList and friends for the STL |
| 06:15:38 | BZFlag | then build a integer client ;-) |
| 06:15:48 | vogon_jeltz | hah |
| 06:16:07 | BZFlag | if I was writing it from scratch I'd do it in C. |
| 06:16:26 | BZFlag | Chris had a C version years ago. |
| 06:17:04 | BZFlag | put in on SF! ;-) |
| 06:17:14 | vogon_jeltz | nah, it's not done yet |
| 06:17:29 | vogon_jeltz | in fact, it causes piles of compiler errors on make |
| 06:19:26 | vogon_jeltz | it should be EntryZoneFlagList *pEZFL = new vector<NUM_FLAGS, list<FlagEntryZone *>> |
| 06:19:56 | vogon_jeltz | oops |
| 06:20:16 | vogon_jeltz | vector pEZFL<NUM_FLAGS, list<FlagEntryZone *>>, rather |
| 06:20:34 | MrApathyCream | done? |
| 06:20:48 | vogon_jeltz | it's close, but the typecasting's broken |
| 06:21:00 | vogon_jeltz | which is why I hate coding for BZFlag |
| 06:21:07 | MrApathyCream | ok, will fix up, just a second |
| 06:21:29 | vogon_jeltz | leaves to work on a project with less-than-infinite code cruftiness |
| 06:21:34 | MrApathyCream | wait |
| 06:21:56 | MrApathyCream | when I get kicked from irc, how do iget back in without waiting for the timeout? |
| 06:22:18 | vogon_jeltz | go to User Menu -> Reconnect |
| 06:23:33 | MrApathyCream | thanks, ok go and play |
| 06:23:37 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 06:23:58 | vogon_jeltz | isn't playing, he's coding |
| 06:26:41 | MrApathyCream | isn't it the same thing :) |
| 06:26:56 | vogon_jeltz | hehe |
| 06:34:51 | MrApathyCream | cvs always hangs up somewhere in data directory once... quite a pain... |
| 06:43:00 | captain_proton | great...what has vogon_jeltz done? |
| 06:47:31 | vogon_jeltz | hah |
| 06:47:40 | vogon_jeltz | I did the coding, but the typing is horribly broken |
| 06:47:55 | vogon_jeltz | notes that BZFlag is truly horrible to code for |
| 06:52:26 | vogon_jeltz | hmm |
| 06:53:00 | vogon_jeltz | to get the front element off an STL list<> and remove it, do I have to front() *and* pop_front()? |
| 06:53:07 | vogon_jeltz | needs to get Stroustrup |
| 06:59:08 | captain_proton | you introduced STL? |
| 06:59:17 | MrApathyCream | yes. both |
| 06:59:19 | vogon_jeltz | hood |
| 06:59:22 | vogon_jeltz | good, even |
| 06:59:27 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: in my project, yes |
| 07:00:13 | captain_proton | your project? |
| 07:00:19 | vogon_jeltz | yup |
| 07:00:20 | | rumour has it bzflag is TimRiker or a 3D internet multiplayer multiplatform (linux, irix, win32, etc) opensource opengl Battlezone capture the flag game that you must try at http://BZFlag.org/ debian arm linux contains a version that will run on the ipaq at like 6 fps |
| 07:00:20 | captain_proton | or bzflag? |
| 07:00:24 | vogon_jeltz | my project |
| 07:00:27 | captain_proton | damned ibot |
| 07:00:31 | captain_proton | ok nevermind |
| 07:00:33 | captain_proton | got scared |
| 07:00:37 | vogon_jeltz | ahaha |
| 07:00:50 | vogon_jeltz | 50 bucks says I'd f0rk up the STL stuff in BZFlag |
| 07:00:59 | vogon_jeltz | well, I could always just wrap it in AList |
| 07:01:15 | captain_proton | tries to choke back a vomit |
| 07:01:20 | vogon_jeltz | hahaha |
| 07:01:30 | vogon_jeltz | dieeeeeeee! |
| 07:03:32 | MrApathyCream | flagentryzone compiles once more!! www.chesco.com/~dbrosius/BZFlag/flagentryzone.diff |
| 07:03:41 | MrApathyCream | dies a horrible nasty death on startup though!! |
| 07:03:42 | MrApathyCream | hehe |
| 07:03:55 | captain_proton | yuk yuk |
| 07:04:28 | MrApathyCream | BTW, the fZoneBound stuff should probably only be calculated once and saved off somewhere in the pFEZ crap. |
| 07:04:40 | MrApathyCream | too expensive to recalculate everytime getNextFlagEntryPos is called. |
| 07:05:21 | MrApathyCream | >>back to you Dr. vogon_jeltz |
| 07:05:27 | captain_proton | hehe |
| 07:05:30 | vogon_jeltz | eww |
| 07:05:41 | captain_proton | waits for the patch to come hit him in the head |
| 07:05:53 | vogon_jeltz | kills time for a while |
| 07:06:09 | MrApathyCream | despairs... |
| 07:06:41 | captain_proton | come on vogon_jeltz...you begged to get in on this little project... |
| 07:06:54 | captain_proton | MrApathyCream: any comments on the protocol doc I sent you? |
| 07:07:11 | MrApathyCream | No complaints so far, really |
| 07:07:18 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: I'll get on it in a second |
| 07:07:36 | MrApathyCream | captain_proton: I see you added ctf again, eh? |
| 07:08:07 | captain_proton | MrApathyCream: i didn't add it, just swapped -r for -c in the config |
| 07:08:39 | captain_proton | GRRRRRRRRRRRRR |
| 07:08:50 | captain_proton | my monitor is going all wonky because power conditioning has been horrible today |
| 07:16:42 | captain_proton | BZFlag: you here? |
| 07:26:27 | MrApathyCream | was not to long ago |
| 07:28:08 | captain_proton | i know he had some wants for the new protocol |
| 07:28:12 | captain_proton | but i don't remember exactly what |
| 07:33:38 | BZFlag | sup? |
| 07:33:48 | captain_proton | read the last 2 lines |
| 07:33:53 | captain_proton | :) |
| 07:34:33 | BZFlag | playerid -> char. teamid same. |
| 07:35:30 | captain_proton | lets say 1 byte, not char :) |
| 07:35:31 | BZFlag | client sends version and supported flags on enter, server replies with version and game info including playerlist and scores. |
| 07:35:39 | BZFlag | agreed. u8 |
| 07:35:53 | BZFlag | or u1 depending on your view. |
| 07:36:02 | captain_proton | u8 |
| 07:36:51 | BZFlag | world info should (at least) have length for each type so that new types can be added and ignored by old clients. |
| 07:37:06 | captain_proton | world info is xml, remember? |
| 07:37:14 | BZFlag | I think the server should track last reported player position... |
| 07:37:40 | captain_proton | yeah good idea |
| 07:37:45 | BZFlag | and flag updates should only have target (or current) destination location |
| 07:37:56 | captain_proton | huh? |
| 07:38:06 | BZFlag | the server should _not_ track player movements, just last reported. |
| 07:38:24 | BZFlag | check the flag update message mess. |
| 07:39:07 | captain_proton | explain about the flag thing - i'm not quite getting you |
| 07:39:49 | BZFlag | Flag status is common to a few message types: ... position, launch, landing. only position is required. |
| 07:40:01 | BZFlag | http://bzflag.org/developer/info-protocol.html |
| 07:40:46 | BZFlag | bases need a size(z) |
| 07:41:07 | captain_proton | what exactly *is* position? |
| 07:42:48 | MrApathyCream | I'd like good flags 1->n bad flags -1 -> -m |
| 07:42:56 | BZFlag | on which? flag? that's x/y/z of were it is. |
| 07:42:59 | MrApathyCream | potential for adding some flags without breaking protocol |
| 07:44:07 | BZFlag | I was thinking of numbering flags as part of game info.... |
| 07:44:35 | captain_proton | BZFlag: probably a good thing with flag negotiation - tell the client flag ID's for each one |
| 07:45:06 | BZFlag | I guess a flag registry could be best. have to be sure to not have 2 flags with same name... might as well be sure to not have 2 flags with same number. |
| 07:45:15 | captain_proton | do negotiation based on abbreviations? |
| 07:45:19 | BZFlag | ok, + - numbering is good. |
| 07:45:47 | BZFlag | yes, negotiation on either is ok, if there is a registry. |
| 07:46:26 | BZFlag | no net reconnects in new protocol, and there needs to be a state for game restarts. |
| 07:46:49 | BZFlag | so a new game can bestarted without the broken requirement that everybody reattach. |
| 07:46:51 | captain_proton | BZFlag: so everything just goes through 5155? |
| 07:46:57 | captain_proton | BZFlag: of course :) |
| 07:47:16 | BZFlag | or whatever port you want, yes. one port for both tcp and optional udp |
| 07:47:24 | MrApathyCream | why not set default port to something else...5156 |
| 07:47:31 | MrApathyCream | windoze fails on 5155 |
| 07:47:32 | BZFlag | and multicast and ping location for that matter. |
| 07:47:43 | captain_proton | hrm? |
| 07:47:54 | captain_proton | is still waiting for an explanation of how those work |
| 07:48:09 | BZFlag | windoze it having issues with the tcp/udp hacks. we will test and fix them in the new code. |
| 07:48:27 | captain_proton | i'm hoping for a complete rewrite |
| 07:48:45 | BZFlag | don't worry about multicast. in fact we might just discard any multicast support. |
| 07:48:48 | captain_proton | we can encapsulate everything into its own file, clean up, etc |
| 07:49:03 | BZFlag | ping replies need to happen though, for server location on a lan |
| 07:49:44 | captain_proton | yeah... |
| 07:50:20 | BZFlag | server needs to be able to read world files from a pipe so that you can rotate through a few levels or replace the random generation code if you like. |
| 07:50:48 | captain_proton | BZFlag: why not just define a default worlds directory and load by filename? |
| 07:51:17 | BZFlag | picture a server with progressive worlds. |
| 07:51:25 | captain_proton | BZFlag: hrm... |
| 07:51:27 | MrApathyCream | BZFlag: nice |
| 07:51:36 | captain_proton | how does that fit with windows though? |
| 07:51:50 | BZFlag | team platform goes up with last game score or some such. |
| 07:52:27 | MrApathyCream | How about downloadable textures. World designer says, this wall should have 'Capn' logo on it. |
| 07:52:28 | BZFlag | -world <file> where if <file> == '-' read from stdin. |
| 07:52:38 | captain_proton | BZFlag: that works :) |
| 07:52:48 | captain_proton | MrApathyCream: that could be done by defining a texture |
| 07:53:04 | captain_proton | i'm working on making the entire world be retrieved via a 'resource request' |
| 07:53:13 | BZFlag | when the world data has length info, then new texture etc infor can be added later. |
| 07:53:26 | captain_proton | you could embed texture definitions in the world xml, then request the texture resource |
| 07:53:32 | BZFlag | first rev is to insure that it _can_ be added, not to add it. |
| 07:53:51 | BZFlag | though if we add some stuff I won't mind, just that's not the focus. |
| 07:53:51 | MrApathyCream | yup |
| 07:53:56 | captain_proton | and have everything tied into md5'ed cacheing |
| 07:54:18 | MrApathyCream | yes, at a granular level, otherwise would be useless. |
| 07:54:26 | captain_proton | who is War[Clone]? |
| 07:55:10 | BZFlag | well, the basic world with no texture info (other than a name to request) will likely have one md5 |
| 07:55:18 | BZFlag | you need that much info. |
| 07:55:33 | MrApathyCream | yes, was thinking of textures |
| 07:55:34 | BZFlag | a player with textures off will only request that much. |
| 07:55:42 | MrApathyCream | yup |
| 07:55:57 | captain_proton | BZFlag: why not just send the whole xml thang? unrecognized or unused attributes can be thrown out |
| 07:56:06 | BZFlag | tank models, textures, etc each have md5s |
| 07:56:12 | captain_proton | BZFlag: exactly |
| 07:56:29 | BZFlag | captain_proton: no need to send textures to a slow user. |
| 07:56:46 | captain_proton | BZFlag: you don't send them if they don't request each texture resource |
| 07:56:51 | BZFlag | just a name for the texture request will suffice. |
| 07:56:58 | captain_proton | say they get a box definition: |
| 07:57:16 | BZFlag | so "the whole xml thang" != textures? then ok. |
| 07:57:35 | captain_proton | BZFlag: well, it includes texture ID's (probably just a filename or some other sort of identification string) |
| 07:57:42 | BZFlag | agreed. |
| 07:57:43 | captain_proton | then they request the resource with that ID |
| 07:57:46 | captain_proton | and it sends them the texture |
| 07:57:58 | captain_proton | much like http almost |
| 07:58:31 | BZFlag | recall that I was thinking of using vrml for this... ;-) |
| 07:58:41 | captain_proton | yeah i recall that |
| 07:58:47 | BZFlag | but xml is fine. |
| 07:59:03 | BZFlag | even hacking the current to have length bits would suffice. |
| 07:59:40 | captain_proton | the current is disgusting |
| 07:59:56 | BZFlag | player join should be able to add stuff too for future texture/model caches on the client. |
| 08:00:08 | captain_proton | player join?! |
| 08:00:25 | BZFlag | tag,data is is not enough. tag,len,data is. |
| 08:01:15 | BZFlag | yes. call sign, email address, tank model, clan, texture, favorite food, etc... |
| 08:01:32 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 08:01:36 | MrApathyCream | tanker picture |
| 08:01:41 | captain_proton | well, its xml, so they can send whatever the fark they want :) |
| 08:01:43 | BZFlag | yep. |
| 08:01:51 | BZFlag | that will work |
| 08:02:42 | MrApathyCream | What about multithreaded server 1 per client, 1 for flag handling, 1 for watchdogging. |
| 08:02:53 | BZFlag | soon there will be a private key challenge in there too. |
| 08:02:58 | captain_proton | would like that |
| 08:03:36 | BZFlag | I'm not a threading fan. not as portable as it should be and tougher to debug. |
| 08:03:56 | captain_proton | BZFlag: yeah, but its a lot better design than a polling server |
| 08:03:59 | MrApathyCream | platform/src |
| 08:04:35 | BZFlag | you trade net blocking for semaphore blocking. does not solve the problem, just moves it. |
| 08:04:41 | MrApathyCream | and more fair. FD_SET[0] is more fair than FD_SET[39] now |
| 08:04:50 | captain_proton | yeah... |
| 08:05:02 | captain_proton | likes his FD_SET[39], thank you very much |
| 08:05:22 | BZFlag | most traffic will likely bee on one udp handle anyway. |
| 08:05:33 | captain_proton | ya |
| 08:06:17 | BZFlag | SubSpace (a win* game) runs 200 clients on one udp port. |
| 08:06:24 | BZFlag | over the internet, etc. |
| 08:06:39 | BZFlag | that's my goal. 200 tanks in a game. |
| 08:06:48 | captain_proton | BZFlag: are you suggesting routing stuff through the server? |
| 08:07:01 | MrApathyCream | 200 :) |
| 08:07:23 | BZFlag | as opposed to multicast? yes. multicast on the internet is not really workable. |
| 08:07:35 | MrApathyCream | because of firewalls, or... |
| 08:07:40 | captain_proton | ok... |
| 08:08:11 | MrApathyCream | hop limits? |
| 08:08:16 | BZFlag | MrApathyCream: most isps will not give you a real multicast route. and most users will not have a multicast tunnel to hook into. |
| 08:08:43 | BZFlag | peer to peer means incoming connections which firewalls will not allow. |
| 08:08:43 | captain_proton | uptime wars! |
| 08:08:55 | BZFlag | so all traffic is through the server. |
| 08:08:58 | captain_proton | 1:08am up 10 days, 10:51, 9 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00 |
| 08:09:06 | captain_proton | BZFlag: sounds good to me |
| 08:09:12 | captain_proton | that simplifies the protocol a lot |
| 08:09:25 | BZFlag | timr@localhost:~$ uname -a ; uptime |
| 08:09:25 | BZFlag | Linux localhost 2.4.17 #1 Sat Jan 19 03:31:07 MST 2002 i686 unknown |
| 08:09:25 | BZFlag | 01:09:54 up 12:22, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.07, 0.30 |
| 08:09:37 | BZFlag | rebooted to get to 2.4.17 |
| 08:09:46 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 08:10:25 | captain_proton | its disgusting...my home machine is at 10 days, and a server I sorta still run is at 1 day, 8:05 =/ |
| 08:11:21 | captain_proton | oh well... |
| 08:11:24 | BZFlag | timr@localhost:~$ ssh q uptime |
| 08:11:25 | BZFlag | 1:13am up 65 days, 1:49, 0 users, load average: 0.01, 0.03, 0.01 |
| 08:11:35 | captain_proton | boo |
| 08:11:41 | captain_proton | my load average still owns yours |
| 08:12:56 | captain_proton | so...back to the proto... |
| 08:13:16 | BZFlag | k |
| 08:13:26 | captain_proton | anything else i should keep in mind? |
| 08:14:45 | MrApathyCream | dbrosius@localhost:~$ ssh q uptime |
| 08:14:48 | MrApathyCream | 3:16am up 137 days, 1:50, 41 users, load average: 0.01, 0.01, 0.01 |
| 08:15:00 | captain_proton | 41? |
| 08:15:14 | BZFlag | little cleanups, kill TTL msgs as multicast is out, I'd remove forward* from player join |
| 08:15:24 | MrApathyCream | just funnin.... it's windoze |
| 08:15:30 | captain_proton | forward? |
| 08:15:31 | MrApathyCream | I'd like to remove pause |
| 08:15:38 | captain_proton | ha |
| 08:15:47 | MrApathyCream | Also remove start server from bzflag |
| 08:15:52 | captain_proton | i think pause should just be turned into a scoreless death |
| 08:16:01 | MrApathyCream | you can always pause after you die |
| 08:16:09 | captain_proton | MrApathyCream: yeah, or make it encompass all of the options |
| 08:16:10 | BZFlag | captain_proton: player can specify motion on join. not much point in that. |
| 08:16:17 | captain_proton | huh? |
| 08:16:20 | captain_proton | ohhh |
| 08:16:30 | captain_proton | where did *that* come from? |
| 08:16:55 | MrApathyCream | menus need overhaul |
| 08:16:56 | BZFlag | I'd like to keep the spawn server and add all the options. |
| 08:17:01 | BZFlag | agreed! |
| 08:17:07 | captain_proton | we're doing SDL right? |
| 08:17:20 | captain_proton | because menus would be nice to do using the SDL api's instead of OpenGL |
| 08:17:27 | captain_proton | create a dual surface for everything |
| 08:17:28 | BZFlag | but ui stuff is not required for the 1.8 release. |
| 08:17:38 | captain_proton | BZFlag: uhhh, what? |
| 08:18:10 | BZFlag | 1.8 _must_ have the new net code. it _may_ also have other changes if they are ready for release. |
| 08:18:36 | captain_proton | with the magnitude of changes we're planning I think it would be easier just to rewrite |
| 08:18:41 | BZFlag | ui code can change without breaking interoperability. |
| 08:18:44 | captain_proton | the current code is what, 25000 lines? |
| 08:18:55 | BZFlag | have not counted lately. |
| 08:19:05 | captain_proton | its probably close to that |
| 08:19:11 | captain_proton | not too huge to attack a rewrite |
| 08:20:09 | captain_proton | and we could *gasp* document it while we're at it |
| 08:20:48 | MrApathyCream | i'm more a fan of refactoring... especially given the glacial pace of opensource dev |
| 08:21:19 | captain_proton | i think a refactoring will end up taking longer than a rewrite |
| 08:21:54 | MrApathyCream | perhaps, but it's not as demoralizing..."A buildable version will be available before the sun explodes" |
| 08:22:00 | captain_proton | if we do a rewrite we can call it 2.0 :) |
| 08:22:09 | captain_proton | MrApathyCream: i think it'll actually go fairly quickly |
| 08:22:46 | MrApathyCream | frets that nothing goes quickly in bz-land |
| 08:23:17 | captain_proton | with the current mess we call code it doesn't |
| 08:24:38 | BZFlag | oh bots have to change too. all bot netcode will die. |
| 08:25:05 | BZFlag | there will be a join bit for bots that lists an owner, but after that they are just players. |
| 08:25:07 | MrApathyCream | and removed from BZFlag executable, please. |
| 08:25:22 | BZFlag | yes, and a separate spawned binary. |
| 08:25:28 | captain_proton | BZFlag: i'm thinking of just putting all protocol stuff and other common things into a shared lib |
| 08:25:35 | BZFlag | spawnable from client or server. |
| 08:25:48 | captain_proton | then just have a .h file for people who want to write bots |
| 08:26:03 | MrApathyCream | I'd like other 'types' of bots as well. A red cross vehicle 'bot'... Shoot it and lose points. |
| 08:26:04 | BZFlag | c++? |
| 08:26:09 | MrApathyCream | for instance |
| 08:26:31 | MrApathyCream | C++: I would |
| 08:26:54 | BZFlag | it just has shared library issues on many platforms. |
| 08:27:16 | vogon_jeltz | Tcl/Tk! |
| 08:27:57 | BZFlag | try wrapping a c++ shared library into something that looks nice from tcl. |
| 08:29:25 | BZFlag | captain_proton: so the short answer for me is that the code needs to be shared, but I'm not real concerned with how it links. |
| 08:29:47 | MrApathyCream | agreed |
| 08:31:10 | MrApathyCream | stl? |
| 08:31:22 | BZFlag | as many server options as possible should be settable from an admin player/observer. |
| 08:32:29 | captain_proton | ack sorry was afk for a while |
| 08:32:34 | BZFlag | again, I'm not much of a c++ fan. If I'm doing most of the rewrite it will be c with an objective design or minimal c++ |
| 08:32:54 | captain_proton | :( |
| 08:33:10 | captain_proton | but C++ is so...nice... |
| 08:33:15 | BZFlag | if I'm a participant and Someone Else(tm) is doing most of the work then what ever They(tm) like is fine with me. |
| 08:33:28 | BZFlag | nice and large and slow you mean? |
| 08:33:38 | captain_proton | i mean intuitive and clean |
| 08:34:25 | BZFlag | I would do the server, bot and netcode in C and the (first) ui in c++ |
| 08:35:01 | captain_proton | why do the server in C? |
| 08:35:10 | BZFlag | so the server/serverbots would be small and fast. |
| 08:35:24 | MrApathyCream | please hide the netcode in objects |
| 08:35:38 | BZFlag | and would not depend on working stl libs or even a working c++ compiler. |
| 08:35:45 | captain_proton | BZFlag: uhm... |
| 08:36:09 | BZFlag | the serer would compile and run on any *nix box you can shake a stick at. |
| 08:36:37 | BZFlag | embedded in you home router if you want. |
| 08:36:38 | captain_proton | seriously, how many people are using tru64 and AIX anymore |
| 08:37:02 | BZFlag | stick in on you netware server if you still have one of those around |
| 08:37:40 | BZFlag | build it into your nat router, etc. ;-) |
| 08:38:11 | captain_proton | BZFlag: wouldn't it make just a little sense to exchange a bit of portability for simplicity? |
| 08:38:43 | captain_proton | why have the server and client work off different implementations of the same objects, etc |
| 08:38:47 | captain_proton | it just doesn't make sense |
| 08:38:57 | BZFlag | again, see my comments. if I write it, that's what you will get. if I'm just contributing, then do what you like. |
| 08:39:07 | captain_proton | schemes |
| 08:39:18 | captain_proton | MrApathyCream: C++ sound good to you? ;) |
| 08:39:30 | BZFlag | captain_proton: they don't have to... the netcode can easily be srapped into a c++ class for the client. |
| 08:39:45 | BZFlag | er wrapped. |
| 08:39:52 | MrApathyCream | i'm a c++ fan |
| 08:39:55 | captain_proton | BZFlag: i know they don't *have* to...buy why not do it? |
| 08:40:20 | captain_proton | it cuts down on the amount of code |
| 08:40:30 | BZFlag | "they don't have to" == be different code. |
| 08:41:11 | captain_proton | huh? |
| 08:41:14 | BZFlag | the same C code could easily have a c++ wrapper on top for the client. |
| 08:41:23 | BZFlag | same code. |
| 08:42:22 | captain_proton | considers |
| 08:42:41 | BZFlag | at the lowest level netcode will be c anyway for speed and direct access at the packet level. |
| 08:42:58 | BZFlag | we will not be sending c++ objects over the wire. ;-) |
| 08:43:07 | captain_proton | BZFlag: no kidding |
| 08:43:23 | MrApathyCream | there's no difference |
| 08:43:41 | captain_proton | write(sockfd, (void *) &boxes[0], sizeof(boxes[0])); |
| 08:43:45 | captain_proton | :) |
| 08:44:02 | MrApathyCream | question only is where is the write call made |
| 08:44:02 | captain_proton | sending data structures is just a recipe for disaster |
| 08:44:30 | captain_proton | the lowest level netcode may be C but that doesn't mean it can't be in a member function |
| 08:44:43 | BZFlag | don't forget all the hton*() |
| 08:45:01 | BZFlag | captain_proton: agreed, it could be. |
| 08:45:13 | captain_proton | BZFlag: i'm not actually writing code yet...gonna finish up the protocol doc first |
| 08:45:15 | MrApathyCream | If I don't see another nboPack... call in main program logic i won't miss it. |
| 08:45:29 | vogon_jeltz | same here |
| 08:45:43 | captain_proton | then send it out to everyone, then implement comments/changes, do that cycle a few times, then start coding |
| 08:45:47 | BZFlag | has to be there someplace. |
| 08:46:10 | captain_proton | BZFlag: but if its encapsulated in a class you don't have to deal with it elsewhere |
| 08:46:26 | BZFlag | perhaps. |
| 08:48:08 | MrApathyCream | World.sendDirect( playerID ); //looks much better |
| 08:52:12 | BZFlag | hmm and then World.sendDirect() looks the same? someone needs to pack it. |
| 08:52:35 | MrApathyCream | The world is the expert about what a world is, let him do it. |
| 08:52:48 | BZFlag | and that packing code needs to be sure it has the correct format (binary or xml) |
| 08:52:51 | captain_proton | why is the world sending anything? |
| 08:52:52 | MrApathyCream | I don't want to be an expert about what a world is. |
| 08:53:15 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: it doesn't have to send anything, but it should send out a properly formatted packet to the networking layer |
| 08:53:52 | captain_proton | i think it would be nicer to have the entire protocol handle itself |
| 08:54:01 | captain_proton | don't have the objects create packets |
| 08:54:20 | BZFlag | WorldInfo::packDatabase() _is_ part of WorldInfo now. |
| 08:54:22 | MrApathyCream | then if the world changes, you've also go to change the proto handler |
| 08:54:45 | captain_proton | hrm... |
| 08:54:52 | captain_proton | yeah? so? |
| 08:55:07 | BZFlag | so you have not changed anything. |
| 08:55:27 | captain_proton | it keeps the protocol all in one place |
| 08:55:41 | MrApathyCream | Ok, got me. |
| 08:55:47 | captain_proton | would a newbie looking at the code expect the World object to create packets? |
| 08:55:52 | MrApathyCream | void handleCommand( void *rawbuf, long len ) |
| 08:55:52 | captain_proton | i sure wouldn't |
| 08:55:55 | MrApathyCream | { |
| 08:56:11 | BZFlag | it's all the "buf = nboUnpackUShort(buf, len);" that I think needs to die |
| 08:56:17 | MrApathyCream | Command c = Command.readCommand( rawbuf, len ); |
| 08:56:22 | MrApathyCream | c.execute(); |
| 08:56:24 | MrApathyCream | } |
| 08:56:45 | captain_proton | looks nice ;) |
| 08:57:21 | MrApathyCream | where readCommand is a factory method, that generates Command objects tailored to stream |
| 08:57:35 | BZFlag | ugh. you have just added an extra call and hidded what is actually happening. |
| 08:57:35 | MrApathyCream | Commands are in an inheritance tree |
| 08:57:45 | MrApathyCream | woopty damn do |
| 08:58:12 | captain_proton | can tell BZFlag is a C programmer |
| 08:58:39 | captain_proton | BZFlag: you know i'm gonna be mad if I don't get my tux tomorrow :) |
| 08:59:40 | BZFlag | then each command will have a function call overhead... so basically you have doubled the code size and tripled the memory requirements and slowed the performance. and for what? do you don't have to actually see any code that does anything. |
| 08:59:43 | BZFlag | why? |
| 09:00:08 | MrApathyCream | there performance implication are unmeasureable |
| 09:00:14 | MrApathyCream | i don't care about code size |
| 09:00:23 | MrApathyCream | nor memory requirements |
| 09:00:29 | BZFlag | not if you plan to embed a game server in your dsl router. |
| 09:00:34 | MrApathyCream | I don't |
| 09:00:44 | MrApathyCream | Do you really think anyone will? |
| 09:00:55 | BZFlag | I will. ;-) |
| 09:01:28 | MrApathyCream | and I get readable and maintenable code |
| 09:01:33 | MrApathyCream | <<if done right>> |
| 09:01:43 | BZFlag | readable, yes. understandable, no. |
| 09:02:01 | MrApathyCream | two lines? not understandable? |
| 09:02:11 | MrApathyCream | create a command, and execute it... what's not to understand? |
| 09:02:23 | BZFlag | two lines that do nothing, that did not need to be there in the first place. |
| 09:02:46 | BZFlag | so more to dig through, and more interface to learn to get up to speed on adding new stuff. |
| 09:03:09 | BZFlag | now, not a lot more. granted. but why add it in the first place? |
| 09:04:03 | MrApathyCream | I want a new command, I inherit from command, can reuse stuff in it. I control everything about my new command |
| 09:04:10 | BZFlag | thinks captain_proton's tux should be there tomorrow. |
| 09:04:18 | MrApathyCream | no one else does, because my command is the expect about the command |
| 09:04:42 | MrApathyCream | er, expert |
| 09:05:09 | BZFlag | sure. I want a new command I copy the block fromt he case statement, and poof I control everything about the command. |
| 09:05:17 | MrApathyCream | hehe |
| 09:05:43 | BZFlag | without adding class overhead or even function call overhead. |
| 09:06:08 | BZFlag | I can {} it and get my own locals, but I don't have to if it's a simple command. |
| 09:06:49 | captain_proton | BZFlag: i think you're going to be the only one running bzfs on their DSL router |
| 09:06:58 | MrApathyCream | :) |
| 09:07:22 | BZFlag | captain_proton forgets that /me works for an embedded systems company. think millions of units. ;-) |
| 09:07:46 | captain_proton | BZFlag: think 'wrong application' ;-) |
| 09:08:17 | BZFlag | hmmm.. the server is just a "game router" right? ;-) |
| 09:08:21 | captain_proton | this is the same reason people don't write IDE's for mobile phones |
| 09:08:32 | captain_proton | because its the wrong application of the hardware |
| 09:08:57 | MrApathyCream | stumbles off in search of beauty sleep |
| 09:09:00 | vogon_jeltz | nn |
| 09:09:04 | captain_proton | MrApathyCream: goodnight |
| 09:09:08 | BZFlag | heh. night. |
| 09:09:08 | MrApathyCream | cya |
| 09:09:48 | captain_proton | you don't see quake servers being written to run on routers and other embedded systems |
| 09:09:51 | BZFlag | well, it's the protocol and server performance I'm concerned with. I'm serious about 200 tanks in a game. |
| 09:09:55 | captain_proton | because thats not what routers are *for* |
| 09:10:08 | captain_proton | BZFlag: i'll get you your 200 tanks |
| 09:10:34 | captain_proton | function call overhead isn't going to be the defining factor |
| 09:11:05 | BZFlag | having written server applications that have 1000s of clients connected, I've seen that small tight code is valuable. |
| 09:11:46 | BZFlag | every little bit helps. this is not to say that the function call over head is sgnificant, but one must consider how often it happens as well. |
| 09:11:47 | MrApathyCream | rolls over and mutters... 200 tanks... would be like the parking lot at a superbowl |
| 09:11:59 | captain_proton | yeah... |
| 09:12:37 | BZFlag | maintainable code is important, and it must only be spared when there is a large definable win in performance. |
| 09:12:54 | vogon_jeltz | MrApathyCream: :) |
| 09:13:05 | captain_proton | yes |
| 09:13:56 | BZFlag | C code can be ordered and maintainable. C++ constucts can be easier to maintain in many cases, but can have large performance impact without being readily identifiable as such with a medium scal source review. |
| 09:14:40 | BZFlag | C code as a general rule is easier to review to determine performance impact. |
| 09:15:43 | BZFlag | so hack on with the document. whoever writes code can do it however they please as long as it works and meets the performance goals. ;-) |
| 09:17:49 | BZFlag | must box tux's night all! |
| 14:05:51 | lupinator | hellas |
| 14:07:40 | MrApathyCream | hey |
| 16:17:39 | Chestal | hi |
| 16:17:48 | Chestal | anywhere alive who wants to listen? :-) |
| 16:26:47 | lupinator | what's up? |
| 16:27:06 | Chestal | lupi: I guess I found a passible cause for the team-flag-returns-to-base bug |
| 16:27:21 | lupinator | oh |
| 16:27:25 | Chestal | i.e. sometimes a player carryign the team flag gets shot and the flag is not droped but returned to hoem base |
| 16:27:35 | Chestal | I think it's related to timing issues |
| 16:28:01 | Chestal | let's say player Folgore drives over red team flag |
| 16:28:08 | Chestal | client sends MsgGrab request to server |
| 16:28:16 | Chestal | at the same time a shot is on its way to hit FOlgore |
| 16:28:29 | Chestal | Folgore's client detects that he is shot and sends MsgKilled to server |
| 16:28:53 | Chestal | in the meantime, MsgGrab request arrived at server, server allows grab and acknowledges it |
| 16:29:03 | Chestal | next server receives MsgKilled for Folg |
| 16:29:15 | Chestal | then Fogl receives MsgGrab acknowledgement, but he is already dead |
| 16:29:43 | Chestal | so no MsgDropFlag message could be sent by Folg before MsgKill as should be the case |
| 16:30:08 | Chestal | server sess MsgKilled and that Folg has the flag and does not know where to put the flag because it doesn't know position of tanks |
| 16:30:35 | Chestal | if this is the cuase it should only happen when flag grab and dying happen at nearly the same time |
| 16:30:41 | Chestal | lag makes this more probable |
| 16:31:43 | lupinator | sounds reasonable |
| 16:32:23 | lupinator | did you have a look at your log for 5156? |
| 16:32:47 | lupinator | capn said there was a cheater he was not able to kick |
| 16:33:03 | Chestal | nope, didn't check it |
| 16:33:04 | vogon_jeltz | lupinator: yeah, simple, just drop MsgSuperKill |
| 16:33:40 | Chestal | I wonder how to fix this bug, though. Same problem with a player carryign flag and just disconnecting |
| 16:33:54 | Chestal | it might be possible to drop the flag at the coordinates it was last picked up, hmm |
| 16:34:01 | Chestal | would be better than return to base I suppose |
| 16:34:50 | Chestal | lupi: 5156? capn in disguise? |
| 16:35:29 | lupinator | kalamazoo or something like that |
| 16:35:50 | Chestal | just found it |
| 16:36:01 | Chestal | the player "red" rejoined as "red " |
| 16:36:32 | lupinator | hm capn said he took care of spaces |
| 16:37:19 | Chestal | I think he tried no blank and double-blank |
| 16:37:29 | Chestal | cant find kick-message with a single trailing blank |
| 16:38:16 | Chestal | I'm considering replacing lag-kick on ctf server by lag-no-flag-grab |
| 16:38:51 | lupinator | woah that'll be confusing |
| 16:40:10 | lupinator | oh, i read your anouncement of the league on the list |
| 16:41:34 | Chestal | might be confusing, but I hate it when peopel with >1s lag carry flag home |
| 16:41:40 | Chestal | you cannot do very much about it |
| 16:41:56 | Chestal | or maybe kick on flag grab :-) |
| 16:42:19 | lupinator | but it's better than nr people grbbing the flag |
| 16:42:51 | Chestal | nr? |
| 16:43:14 | lupinator | not responding |
| 16:43:50 | Chestal | temporary bans for cheaters might also be effective |
| 16:43:52 | lupinator | with fscked up udp links i guess |
| 16:44:00 | Chestal | i.e. ban by ip for 15 minutes |
| 16:44:15 | Chestal | stops them from rejoining after getting kicked |
| 16:44:26 | lupinator | yes, that would be ok |
| 16:44:29 | Chestal | about the league: what do you think about it? |
| 16:45:08 | lupinator | is it allowed to play with off-team players? |
| 16:45:29 | lupinator | i think that is better than more than 3 players |
| 16:45:43 | Chestal | didn't think about that yet |
| 16:46:07 | Chestal | so you propose filling up a team with players which aren't part of any team? |
| 16:46:14 | lupinator | yes |
| 16:46:22 | Chestal | might be feasible |
| 16:46:32 | lupinator | that way all members of the team can play |
| 16:46:35 | Chestal | of course this could be abused |
| 16:46:59 | Chestal | well, a team does not have to have more than 3 players |
| 16:47:10 | Chestal | only if it wants to |
| 16:47:40 | Chestal | theoretically, filling up with rogue players could be abused. Imagine team A vs. team B |
| 16:47:59 | Chestal | some player from team C comes in in disguise and opts for filling up team A for the battle |
| 16:48:28 | Chestal | maybe he does it because team A and C are fighting for the top position in the league |
| 16:48:36 | Chestal | don't know if we have to worry about such things, though |
| 16:48:57 | lupinator | ---> player X from team C playing with name Y of team A |
| 16:49:57 | Chestal | hehe, what happens when A fights C? :-) |
| 16:50:10 | Chestal | but players in teams are registered with callsign and email |
| 16:50:14 | lupinator | then a must look for another player |
| 16:50:31 | lupinator | i think that's the best way to fill up teams |
| 16:50:46 | Chestal | of course peopel can still play in disguise by using several email addresses |
| 16:50:48 | vogon_jeltz | points out that he will finish up a bowl of cereal and get to you guys about clan/league play |
| 16:52:46 | vogon_jeltz | is back |
| 16:52:51 | lupinator | well, i don't think there will be much abuse |
| 16:53:13 | lupinator | as it makes sense for godd players only |
| 16:53:25 | vogon_jeltz | there are reasons clan play is run the way it is in other FPSes... |
| 16:54:01 | vogon_jeltz | (teams are the largest number possible without creating inequity, servers are chosen from among those with low lag to all players...) |
| 16:55:02 | vogon_jeltz | and I don't see any reason to disobey those rules with BZFlag |
| 16:55:34 | lupinator | do we have to worry about that? |
| 16:55:49 | Chestal | well, we would have to estimate lag before playing, there is no way to measure it a priori yet |
| 16:55:53 | vogon_jeltz | good point |
| 16:56:06 | lupinator | how many suitable public servers are out there? |
| 16:56:16 | vogon_jeltz | 10, last time I checked ^_^ |
| 16:56:25 | Chestal | suitable :-) |
| 16:56:39 | vogon_jeltz | uhh, a number significantly smaller than 0 ;) |
| 16:57:12 | lupinator | i think chestal's server performs quite good |
| 16:57:25 | vogon_jeltz | I did get an idea for the observer thing, tho |
| 16:57:27 | lupinator | so let's forget about the server issue |
| 17:00:28 | Chestal | vogon: tell us about your idea |
| 17:01:26 | vogon_jeltz | OK, we hack up a client/server that connects to a normal game server: it loiters above the middle of the map (some insane distance up), and the server is programmed to relay all the messages to it |
| 17:01:48 | vogon_jeltz | then, we have the observer clients join as normal clients (as you did with the tourney) |
| 17:02:06 | vogon_jeltz | that way, the observers don't interfere with the game, |
| 17:02:20 | vogon_jeltz | s/e,/e/ |
| 17:02:42 | lupinator | hm interesting |
| 17:03:10 | vogon_jeltz | :) |
| 17:03:25 | vogon_jeltz | plus, you don't put significantly greater bandwidth stress on the game server |
| 17:04:57 | Chestal | yes, that's a good idea. Of course we would need to implement the relaying observer server |
| 17:05:10 | vogon_jeltz | yeh, but that's not all that hard |
| 17:05:29 | Chestal | it's a bit messy with the not-so-modular bzflag/bzfs code |
| 17:05:39 | Chestal | I guess it would result in a lot of copy'n'paste reuse |
| 17:43:49 | iLLf8d | morning all |
| 17:46:34 | Chestal | hi ill |
| 17:47:29 | iLLf8d | how goes it |
| 17:47:50 | iLL_BZFlag | time for killin =) |
| 17:48:00 | iLL_BZFlag | bbiabout 100 points |
| 17:48:00 | iLL_BZFlag | jj |
| 17:48:02 | iLL_BZFlag | jk |
| 17:48:03 | iLL_BZFlag | heh |
| 17:48:39 | iLL_BZFlag | <Razed> what is bzflag? |
| 17:48:40 | iLL_BZFlag | heh |
| 17:48:50 | iLL_BZFlag | people are constantly asking me |
| 17:50:11 | Chestal | well, tell them :-) |
| 17:50:35 | iLL_BZFlag | i'm talking in 2 channels about it atm heh |
| 17:50:36 | iLL_BZFlag | =P |
| 17:54:29 | lupinator | hey ill |
| 17:54:30 | iLLf8d | just put it chan topics in #freebsd and #freebsdhelp |
| 17:54:35 | iLLf8d | at least a few people will see |
| 17:54:39 | iLLf8d | lo lup |
| 17:54:41 | iLLf8d | how goes it |
| 17:54:58 | lupinator | stressed... |
| 17:55:07 | iLLf8d | why stressed? |
| 17:55:38 | lupinator | i have to finish a project for school untill next friday |
| 17:56:22 | iLLf8d | tough project or what? |
| 17:56:35 | iLLf8d | I can remember coding in college right up to the last minute |
| 17:56:45 | lupinator | quite |
| 17:56:51 | iLLf8d | it was a bitch because they only had so many printers for the mainframes |
| 17:57:00 | iLLf8d | usually the que would be outta control |
| 17:57:07 | iLLf8d | and half the time the printers would go down |
| 17:57:50 | lupinator | murphy... |
| 18:00:15 | lupinator | next week i'll receive a switched integrator and an adc. now i'm tryiong to figure out how to put everything together and how to control and read the adc |
| 18:00:20 | lupinator | pfff |
| 18:03:09 | vogon_jeltz | is away: sleepz0rz |
| 18:20:59 | iLL_BZFlag | heh |
| 18:21:06 | iLL_BZFlag | I just scared 2 guys off a field heh |
| 18:21:43 | iLL_BZFlag | hey someone mentioned a ctf tourney? |
| 18:21:56 | iLL_BZFlag | can you guys put a link in channel topic ie || whatever? |
| 18:22:03 | iLL_BZFlag | ok back to killing |
| 18:30:41 | Chestal | ill: ther's no website yet |
| 18:30:46 | Chestal | ill: check out bzflag at ezboard |
| 18:30:55 | Chestal | http://pub33.ezboard.com/bbzflag |
| 19:47:48 | iLL_BZFlag | huh? |
| 19:47:56 | iLL_BZFlag | ah ok |
| 19:47:57 | iLL_BZFlag | gotcha |
| 19:48:13 | iLL_BZFlag | saw gerbil on =) |
| 19:48:20 | Chestal | that little rodent :-) |
| 19:48:38 | iLL_BZFlag | has the meq in front |
| 19:48:44 | iLL_BZFlag | seems like he's outta practice |
| 19:48:48 | iLL_BZFlag | whats the [meq] mean? |
| 19:48:55 | iLL_BZFlag | seems that proton and gerbil have that |
| 19:49:12 | Chestal | I've seena couple tanks using [meq] |
| 19:49:27 | iLL_BZFlag | yeah I think i'll start using |
| 19:49:27 | Chestal | I think I remember having seen it written the long way |
| 19:49:30 | Chestal | was somethign strange |
| 19:49:37 | iLL_BZFlag | [wtf]Tankenstein |
| 19:49:46 | iLL_BZFlag | =P |
| 19:49:54 | iLL_BZFlag | or [fu]Tankenstein |
| 19:49:54 | iLL_BZFlag | heh |
| 19:49:55 | iLL_BZFlag | =P |
| 19:49:57 | iLL_BZFlag | jk |
| 19:52:14 | Chestal | want a hi-res version of Dear Doctor |
| 19:54:44 | iLLf8d | dear doc? |
| 19:54:49 | iLLf8d | does a search |
| 19:55:18 | iLLf8d | hmm too many results |
| 19:56:33 | Chestal | enterprise dear doc |
| 19:56:46 | Chestal | there are lots of VCD files, but I liek higher resolution |
| 19:56:58 | Chestal | noone except me seems to want that highquality though :-( |
| 19:59:03 | iLLf8d | ah |
| 20:00:10 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 20:38:49 | captain_proton | Chestal: is dear doctor an episode of enterprise? |
| 21:46:17 | Chestal | capt: yes, 1x13 |
| 21:58:19 | iLLf8d | lo all |
| 21:58:42 | iLLf8d | got a question anyone know if theres a cheat where people can killya and not be anywhere near you? |
| 21:58:53 | iLLf8d | seems I could swear its happened to me a few times lately |
| 21:59:04 | iLLf8d | like someone will have sw and be on the other side of the field |
| 21:59:12 | iLLf8d | although it says they killed me |
| 21:59:17 | iLLf8d | and no sw went off |
| 21:59:25 | iLLf8d | no laser either so... |
| 21:59:43 | iLLf8d | I noticed it a few times over the last few days |
| 22:00:07 | iLLf8d | one guy killed me although he was on the other side of field no sb and I was low amongst buildings |
| 22:00:30 | iLLf8d | although I got killed cross field (he didnt have any weapons with that capability |
| 22:00:37 | iLLf8d | and I take into account teleporters btw |
| 22:00:37 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 22:01:50 | iLLf8d | those were 2 seperate incidences that I confirmed (others just had me thinking hmm) |
| 22:02:04 | iLLf8d | once it happens a few times I start to pay attention |
| 22:05:04 | iLLf8d | it could be lag but usually lagstats don't show its off by much, could it be a server bug? |
| 22:08:15 | lupinator | i don't think that's possible |
| 22:08:46 | lupinator | perhaps extremely fast shots |
| 22:11:09 | lupinator | or genocide hehe |
| 22:56:17 | captain_proton | it might be possible - i'm not sure of the semantics of MsgKill |
| 22:57:32 | captain_proton | Chestal: sorry i don't have that one yet - its a good idea to stick to divx though :) |
| 23:14:37 | Chestal | hi BZFlag |